Is there an updated Dynotest somewhere?

[bob prohaska]

Many years ago a fairly quantitative report on the performance of
bicycle lighting dynamos was published on the Web. The link is
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html

Most of the brands named are long gone. Is there a more modern
report of similar quality to be found? I've looked and found nothing
remotely quantitative, just a lot of exuberant descriptions. There
seem to be a considerable number of new (mostly hub) dynamos, hopefully
somebody has measured what they can do.

Thanks for reading, and any guidance,

bob prohaska

[Sepp Ruf]

As the more recent tests were mostly conducted "by SON's Andreas Oehler or
one of his buddies," they have not met r.b.t's stringent anti-corruption
criteria:

<https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/>
(is a translation of:)
https://fahrradzukunft.de/14/neue-nabendynamos-im-test/


Some things that have changed since the dynotest age:

- bottle dynamo market has mostly bifurcated into "cheap replacement" and
"pointless hipster specialty" items
<https://fahrradzukunft.de/18/labortest-felgenlaeuferdynamos/>

- more (bottle) dynamos feature inbuilt hard voltage limitation, potentially
limiting light output

- new, low-power "1.5W" generator category, marketed at dragophobes


subjective advice:
Shimano generators have improved. For their 3 Watt hubs, stay away from
anything even more basic than their, from old to new, DH-3N30, DH-3N31,
DH-C3000 hub lines.

Get (import) an identical pair of low-to midrange Shimano hubs, and in case
of failure, beat SON's (or Taiwan's) service turnaround time hands-down by
locally rebuilding the wheel.

[Frank Krygowski]

Good info from Sep Ruff (and I wish I read Deutsch).

But Bob, can I ask what your objectives are? I ask because some of this
may not matter much any more. Seems to me there was a time when it made
sense to worry about which dynamos might put out a little more power, or
which had a little less drag. But with modern LED dynamo lights from
Busch & Muller, there is plenty of light available right where you need
it; and almost any dyno can supply the power. You'll never notice the
differences in drag between the various hub dynos.

I agree that the Shimano DH-3N30 works perfectly well. The two bikes I
ride most often at night have hub dynos. But on a couple bikes that I
ride only occasionally at night, I've got old bottle dynamos or roller
dynamos. They work very well and have the benefit of zero drag when off.
Yet those bikes have good lights available whenever needed, with no
battery worries.

And a bottle or (if you're really lucky) a roller dynamo can be had for
free these days. It's a benefit of being out of fashion. Their main
disadvantage is trickier installation, requiring understanding their
wiring and perhaps fabricating a bracket. But I can handle that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[bob prohaska]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>
> As the more recent tests were mostly conducted "by SON's Andreas Oehler or
> one of his buddies," they have not met r.b.t's stringent anti-corruption
> criteria:
>
> <https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/>
> (is a translation of:)
> https://fahrradzukunft.de/14/neue-nabendynamos-im-test/
>
>

That article actually comes somewhat close to what I was looking
for. The real disappointment is the photo: It shows a (very expensive)
Schmidt hub containing a clawpole armature.

That is somewhat borne out in the efficiency. It's only around 50%.
Seems to me Schmidt has considerable room for improvement. Even the
cheapest electric machines use laminated armatures.

If that represents the state of the hub dynamo art it's in a bad way.
They're obviously aware of eddy current losses (note the notch in
the visible pole piece) but the losses extend to the entire volume
of magnetic material. It's as if they're unaware of the skin effect.

> Some things that have changed since the dynotest age:
>
> - bottle dynamo market has mostly bifurcated into "cheap replacement" and
> "pointless hipster specialty" items
> <https://fahrradzukunft.de/18/labortest-felgenlaeuferdynamos/>
>
> - more (bottle) dynamos feature inbuilt hard voltage limitation, potentially
> limiting light output
>
> - new, low-power "1.5W" generator category, marketed at dragophobes
>
>
> subjective advice:
> Shimano generators have improved. For their 3 Watt hubs, stay away from
> anything even more basic than their, from old to new, DH-3N30, DH-3N31,
> DH-C3000 hub lines.
>
> Get (import) an identical pair of low-to midrange Shimano hubs, and in case
> of failure, beat SON's (or Taiwan's) service turnaround time hands-down by
> locally rebuilding the wheel.

For the moment I think I'll try to revive my old Soubitez roller dynamo
and hope somebody gets past the 19th century.

Thanks for posting!

bob prohaska

[bob prohaska]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Good info from Sep Ruff (and I wish I read Deutsch).
>
> But Bob, can I ask what your objectives are?

Simply to make a well-informed choice. Hub dynamos represent a lot of
money when a wheel is laced on them, a Schmidt is expensive even before
that. It would be nice to know what I'm getting before paying for it.
The application is daytime running lights.

> I ask because some of this may not matter much any more. Seems to me
> there was a time when it made sense to worry about which dynamos might
> put out a little more power, or which had a little less drag. But with
> modern LED dynamo lights from Busch & Muller, there is plenty of light
> available right where you need it; and almost any dyno can supply the power.
> You'll never notice the differences in drag between the various hub dynos.
>

Yes, lights are better, but the materials available to dynamo builders
are better also, and I have (possibly misguided) hopes that somebody,
somewhere, is exploiting them. Rare earth magnets are one improvement,
use of laminated armature poles would be another. Together they might
be worth a factor of two, redeemable either in efficiency or weight.

> I agree that the Shimano DH-3N30 works perfectly well. The two bikes I
> ride most often at night have hub dynos. But on a couple bikes that I
> ride only occasionally at night, I've got old bottle dynamos or roller
> dynamos. They work very well and have the benefit of zero drag when off.
> Yet those bikes have good lights available whenever needed, with no
> battery worries.
>

I've got a Breezer with a DH-3N30 hub dynamo and have worn out a
couple of Union rollers on my Cannondale. Neither type seems decisively
better, and neither is impressive. The Shimano is huge and heavy, the
Unions were noisy and prone to bouncing if anything stuck to the roller.

> And a bottle or (if you're really lucky) a roller dynamo can be had for
> free these days. It's a benefit of being out of fashion. Their main
> disadvantage is trickier installation, requiring understanding their
> wiring and perhaps fabricating a bracket. But I can handle that.
>

As can I. At this stage I'd like something better and am looking for
guidance as to what (if anything) is better.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

[James]

My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now. I guess
that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.

Characteristics very similar to a SON, but without the price tag,

--
JS

[James]

On 10/09/17 15:24, bob prohaska wrote:
> Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>
>> As the more recent tests were mostly conducted "by SON's Andreas Oehler or
>> one of his buddies," they have not met r.b.t's stringent anti-corruption
>> criteria:
>>
>> <https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/>
>> (is a translation of:)
>> https://fahrradzukunft.de/14/neue-nabendynamos-im-test/
>>
>>
> That article actually comes somewhat close to what I was looking
> for. The real disappointment is the photo: It shows a (very expensive)
> Schmidt hub containing a clawpole armature.
>
> That is somewhat borne out in the efficiency. It's only around 50%.
> Seems to me Schmidt has considerable room for improvement. Even the
> cheapest electric machines use laminated armatures.
>
> If that represents the state of the hub dynamo art it's in a bad way.
> They're obviously aware of eddy current losses (note the notch in
> the visible pole piece) but the losses extend to the entire volume
> of magnetic material. It's as if they're unaware of the skin effect.
>

> For the moment I think I'll try to revive my old Soubitez roller dynamo
> and hope somebody gets past the 19th century.
>

Notice the laminated magnetic material in the SP dynamo hub.

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/pv8.jpg

--
JS

[sms]

On 9/10/2017 4:49 PM, James wrote:

<snip>

> My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now.  I guess
> that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.
>
> Characteristics very similar to a SON, but without the price tag,

SP claims that its tests show higher efficiency than the SON. I guess
that's as valid a conclusion as the tests published by SON.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[bob prohaska]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 9/10/2017 4:49 PM, James wrote:
>
> <snip>
>

>> My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now.? I guess

>> that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.
>>
>> Characteristics very similar to a SON, but without the price tag,
>
> SP claims that its tests show higher efficiency than the SON. I guess
> that's as valid a conclusion as the tests published by SON.
>
>

SP is something of a puzzle. They used a laminated armature, but
it's still a clawpole design. I'd be curious to know their reasoning.
From where I sit it looks too wrongheaded to be worth spending much
money on, but if one came to hand it'd be worth exploring. It looks
as if the cost is somewhere over 100 US$

Does SP have a US dealer?

[Sepp Ruf]

James wrote:
> On 09/09/17 18:24, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>> bob prohaska wrote:
>>> Many years ago a fairly quantitative report on the performance of
>>> bicycle lighting dynamos was published on the Web. The link is
>>> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
>>>
>>> Most of the brands named are long gone. Is there a more modern
>>> report of similar quality to be found? I've looked and found nothing
>>> remotely quantitative, just a lot of exuberant descriptions. There
>>> seem to be a considerable number of new (mostly hub) dynamos, hopefully
>>> somebody has measured what they can do.
>>
>> As the more recent tests were mostly conducted "by SON's Andreas Oehler or
>> one of his buddies," they have not met r.b.t's stringent anti-corruption
>> criteria:
>>
>> <https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/>

> My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now. I guess
> that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.

Good to hear, good for you!

How many indoor/outdoor temperature cycles at 100% humidity, how much frost,
road salt, Joerg-ific Wisconsin winters has it been exposed to?

> Characteristics very similar to a SON, but without the price tag,

... and without the virtue-signaling at taxpayer's (and their daughters')
expense, I shall add.

5 year warranty, too? Admittedly, this has lost much appeal since SON
updated the construction and the entire hub needs to be sent for service.

[Frank Krygowski]

But it doesn't seem like it affected the efficiency very much. I think
we're chasing diminishing returns. The major point of the article at
https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/ is that the
drag is not much to worry about.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sepp Ruf]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/10/2017 7:55 PM, James wrote:
>> On 10/09/17 15:24, bob prohaska wrote:

For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>

[1]
DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.

[John B.]

I wonder whether size, output and cost may not enter into it. After
all one doesn't want a 10 inch hub and the things only puts out an
almost negligible amount of power. Some 2 - 3 watts was it? And cost
is usually mentioned in any review of hub generators.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 9/11/2017 11:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

<snip>

> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>
> [1]
> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.

True, but if you want a dynamo light for more than just a DRL then that
won't do.

I have an SP dynamo (relabeled as "Joule") on a 20" wheel on a Dahon.
It's coupled to a European dynamo light with about the best optics
available, but at a claimed 200 lumens it's still really only useful as
a DRL, plus it does not have a flash function.

The SP PV-8 claims 72% efficiency. SON claims 65%. I don't think either
company is going to spend much trying to improve that number given the
way the bicycle lighting market is going. Even at perfect efficiency
you;re not going to be able to run even a mid-range 1000 lumen light,
let alone the 2500+ lumen lights that bicycle commuters require.

I am going to Interbike next week and I'll see what new lighting
products are available. But Interbike is shrinking with a lot of
companies pulling out. Next year it's in Reno instead of Las Vegas, and
it will shrink even more since Reno is not as convenient and cheap to
get to, and in a few years it will go the way of Comdex.

[sms]

On 9/12/2017 3:50 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/11/2017 11:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>> grows sick of the Soubitez.  Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>
>> [1]
>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>
> True, but if you want a dynamo light for more than just a DRL then that
> won't do.
>
> I have an SP dynamo (relabeled as "Joule") on a 20" wheel on a Dahon.
> It's coupled to a European dynamo light with about the best optics
> available, but at a claimed 200 lumens it's still really only useful as
> a DRL, plus it does not have a flash function.

I should add, that I've designed a hack to add modulated capability to
all these European-standard dynamo lights that lack it.

Since when dynamo power is cut off the standlight comes on at lower
brightness, by interrupting the AC power to the light you can modulate
the intensity. Using a magnetic reed switch with a wheel magnet is the
simplest solution but the flash rate varies with wheel speed. Using a
Triac with a timer is a better solution but it needs DC power for the
timer so it gets more complex.

If there were much of a market for dynamo lights in countries where
flashing DRLs are not illegal, then the manufacturers might consider
including modulated DRL functionality.

The only dynamo light I've seen with a DRL flash function is the Planet
Bike Blaze Dynamo SL, which has been improved slightly over the original
and is now rated at 150 lumens. Nashbar has it for $42.18 right now (26%
discount). Once you give up on the idea that ANY dynamo light is going
to be sufficient for commuting, and accept that it's only going to be
useful as a DRL, the Planet Bike light is a pretty good deal. But it
won't work with the 1.5W Shimano dynamo, it needs a 2.4-3.0W dynamo.

[Doug Landau]

Hm. Is that thing planing?

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 6:50:39 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 9/11/2017 11:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
> > big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
> > smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
> > grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
> > Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
> > <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
> >
> > [1]
> > DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>
> True, but if you want a dynamo light for more than just a DRL then that
> won't do.
>
> I have an SP dynamo (relabeled as "Joule") on a 20" wheel on a Dahon.
> It's coupled to a European dynamo light with about the best optics
> available, but at a claimed 200 lumens it's still really only useful as
> a DRL, plus it does not have a flash function.

> ... Even at perfect efficiency you;re not going to be able to run even a

> mid-range 1000 lumen light, let alone the 2500+ lumen lights that bicycle
> commuters require.

Good grief. The "Danger! Danger!" crew is insanely into the lumen wars. After
many decades of millions of commuters doing perfectly well with 80 lumen
halogen bulbs, how is it suddenly "required" to have 2500 lumens?

BTW, I saw a new phenomenon yesterday. Driving along a two lane highway, I
saw a very bright flashing white light from about a mile back. I wondered
what sort of emergency vehicle or road work it might be.

Over a minute later, I passed a bike rider. She had an insanely bright bike
headlight mounted on the back of her bike, pointed back at traffic. As I
changed lanes to pass (which I would have done anyway) the thing was so
bright that it literally hurt my eyes.

It's illegal for a white light to be pointed rearward like that. But I'm sure
the rider felt that it was so dangerous to ride a bike that she should
violate that law, and also blind or inconvenience any other road users.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tosspot]

On 12/09/17 12:50, sms wrote:
> On 9/11/2017 11:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>
>> [1]
>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>
> True, but if you want a dynamo light for more than just a DRL then that
> won't do.
>
> I have an SP dynamo (relabeled as "Joule") on a 20" wheel on a Dahon.
> It's coupled to a European dynamo light with about the best optics
> available, but at a claimed 200 lumens it's still really only useful as
> a DRL, plus it does not have a flash function.

What light is that?

<snip>

[Tosspot]

On 12/09/17 21:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:

<snip>

> It's illegal for a white light to be pointed rearward like that. But I'm sure
> the rider felt that it was so dangerous to ride a bike that she should
> violate that law, and also blind or inconvenience any other road users.

The safest course of action for a ton and a half of moving metal is to
blind it so it can't see where it's going. Well, tbh, the long term
safest thing...

[Sepp Ruf]

Tosspot wrote:

>> It's coupled to a European dynamo light

> What light is that?

<http://radtouren-magazin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Herrmans_hblackpro_9323.jpg>
from
<http://radtouren-magazin.com/11530/e-bike/test-e-bike-scheinwerfer>

(Compared to the DC version shown in the test, the dynamo H-Black-Pro is
somewhat dimmer.) It doesn't really matter because the Herrmans optic is
annoyingly unrefined in either version. And, needless to say, it's a low
beam with a symmetrical cutoff, so it is certainly not producing a DRL beam
shape.

[Tosspot]

That's the light I commute on (dynamo) and it's find for forest tracks
at night. It has the DLR on by default (which means the rear is on
permanently. Nice light, and going into 3rd winter so actually seems
waterproof!

[bob prohaska]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>
> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>
> [1]
> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.

It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
of a bicycle.

In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.

I still don't understand why high-end builders like Schmidt don't use
salient-pole armatures, which could be constructed from standard motor
laminations (instead of the custom clawpole monolith used now). That
would shorten the iron path dramatically, reducing reluctance, reduce
the length of copper, reducing resistance. The performance gains can
be traded for lighter weight, higher efficiency or higher power.
Every motor builder in the world does it that way, why not dyamo hub
builders? Maybe there _is_ a technical reason, but it certainly isn't
apparent to me. The use of incandescent bulbs may have set the tradition,
but it's certainly no reason to continue.

At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.

bob prohaska

[John B.]

Not to argue but why is the "clawpole armature" used in automotive
"alternators".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

Machine theory is a bit of a black art for me, but I suspect that the "less
optimized" magnetics in hub dynamos provides the extra leakage inductance
required to make it self regulate into a 12 ohm load. I fully agree that a
less well regulated output plus a switching regulator could work very well
with modern electronics.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 05:46:06 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
:<b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:

:>
:>I still don't understand why high-end builders like Schmidt don't use

:>salient-pole armatures, which could be constructed from standard motor
:>laminations (instead of the custom clawpole monolith used now). That
:>would shorten the iron path dramatically, reducing reluctance, reduce
:>the length of copper, reducing resistance. The performance gains can
:>be traded for lighter weight, higher efficiency or higher power.
:>Every motor builder in the world does it that way, why not dyamo hub
:>builders? Maybe there _is_ a technical reason, but it certainly isn't
:>apparent to me. The use of incandescent bulbs may have set the tradition,
:>but it's certainly no reason to continue.

:Not to argue but why is the "clawpole armature" used in automotive
:"alternators".

Because saliant pole alternators with the outputs required are
physically larger and heavier than the Lundell style.



--
sig 30

[Sepp Ruf]

Very early adopter there! Don't you get a gap between the wheel and where
the large bottom patch of light hits the ground? I don't like that when
riding offroad.

I appreciate the lamp's concept though and hope they'll eventually come
around to using some nicer LED and putting more effort into smoothing out
the intensity and color transitions.

[Frank Krygowski]

Is it feasible to use a switching regulator when you've got as much
inductance as a typical hub dynamo? I'd have thought that causes problems.

But then, I'm not an EE.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/14/2017 1:46 AM, bob prohaska wrote:
> Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>
>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>
>> [1]
>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>
> It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
> when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
> of a bicycle.
>
> In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
> starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
> opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.

Well, dynamos are not limited to 3 Watts. As James and others have
discussed, they'll put out more power if presented with bigger loads,
i.e. more resistance. They're essentially constant current devices. I
used to occasionally drive two halogen headlamps from my Soubitez roller
dynamo. Others do it with hub dynos. (It doesn't work well with a bottle
dyno, though, because the smaller drive roller is more prone to slipping.)

Second, despite the current fashion for mega-lumen lights, I've seen no
evidence that road cyclists need them, and I've seen the disadvantages.
IME, a good B&M LED headlight lights up a stop sign nearly 1/4 mile way.
It also illuminates the road very well; and with ever-improving LEDs,
the current models are probably better than the ones I own.

And it's a little ironic that the mega-lumen fans choose to ignore poor
optical design in their headlights, leading to inferior illumination
while blinding others. I think that's a bigger problem than a few
percent less theoretical efficiency in the dynamo.

Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
their stereo speakers while they ride!

> At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.

I've got two that are working very well. They're decades old. One was a
gift, from a friend who ripped out its output wire. A little solder
fixed that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:26:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
<snip>

> Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
> hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
> their stereo speakers while they ride!
> > At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.

Careful, there . . . Joerg runs speakers. The noise keeps the mountain lions away.

I wan't to slap the dopes with speakers on their bikes -- make them crash into the guys with earbuds who then domino into the guys talking or texting on their iPhones. I wish the great heel of Yahweh would come down and crush all those devices -- at least while in use on bikes.

Whatever happened to just riding down the road, listening to the environment (horns, motors, crickets) and thinking thoughts? Some of the great ideas of our time were formulated while riding a bike. http://cyclingisgoodforyou.blogspot.com/2009/05/albert-einstein-and-bicycles.html

As for dynos, I have to re-wire my mood light and get it up and running, maybe buy a bar mount since I no longer have a through-hole in my fork crown (such are modern CF forks on a disc bike -- and I'm not going to drill CF). OTOH, I might need to get a 2,500 lumen light because that is what "transportational" cyclists use on the MUPs -- at least in Cupertino. It's really, really dark in Cupertino on the MUPs. But if you can afford to live there, it doesn't matter. You can pay someone on a eBike to ride in front of you with a headlight -- or slaves with torches. The options are endless.

I'll mount my fenders this weekend, too, because rain is-a-coming.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Radey Shouman]

Happens all the time. Google "h-bridge", and notice all those diodes in
parallel with the switching components, allowing current always to
continue to circulate through some path. Typically the diodes are
in the same package as the switching component, eg MOSFET.



--

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/14/2017 4:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> As for dynos, I have to re-wire my mood light and get it up and running, maybe buy a bar mount since I no longer have a through-hole in my fork crown (such are modern CF forks on a disc bike -- and I'm not going to drill CF).

That sounds to me like a big disadvantage of a CF fork: the lack of a
mounting hole for a light, a front rack, or anything else.

I don't much like bike headlights at handlebar height. ISTM I get much
better illumination of the road when the headlight's about 24" to 28"
above the road. And it doesn't interfere with my handlebar bag (or
vice-versa) nor by packages in a front basket, etc. Also, less chance of
glare in my eyes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

So spikes, etc. from switching inductors get to sort of bleed off
through diodes? Is that the idea? Again, electronics isn't my thing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 2:32:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/14/2017 4:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > As for dynos, I have to re-wire my mood light and get it up and running, maybe buy a bar mount since I no longer have a through-hole in my fork crown (such are modern CF forks on a disc bike -- and I'm not going to drill CF).
>
> That sounds to me like a big disadvantage of a CF fork: the lack of a
> mounting hole for a light, a front rack, or anything else.

It is, but hole-less-ness is not universal. There are CF forks with through-holes -- just not on my warranty replacement CAADX. Warranty beggars cannot be choosers. At least it has fender mounts, unlike many other CX bikes.

Also, even if the clashing colors weren't a problem, I couldn't swap in the aluminum pepperoni forks from the replaced frame. Those have a 1 1/8" diameter steerer as opposed to the 1 1/4 - 1 1/8" tapered steerer and matching headtube on the new CAADX. That, BTW, is an odd taper and requires a spendy headset -- unless your wife just smashed your SuperSix on a roof rack and you can use the headset off that bike (which I did).

I have no problem with bar mounted lights and always used them until I got the mood light. I haven't used a front basket since I gave up my job as Wicked Witch of the West. My go-to light at this point is a bar-mounted all-in-one L&M Urban 800 which is plenty bright notwithstanding its meager 800 lumen output and obvious inadequacy for transportational cyclist navigating MUPs.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 9/14/2017 4:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 2:32:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/14/2017 4:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> As for dynos, I have to re-wire my mood light and get it up and running, maybe buy a bar mount since I no longer have a through-hole in my fork crown (such are modern CF forks on a disc bike -- and I'm not going to drill CF).
>>
>> That sounds to me like a big disadvantage of a CF fork: the lack of a
>> mounting hole for a light, a front rack, or anything else.
>
> It is, but hole-less-ness is not universal. There are CF forks with through-holes -- just not on my warranty replacement CAADX. Warranty beggars cannot be choosers. At least it has fender mounts, unlike many other CX bikes.

Just grab a drill and put in a hole. People do it for mounting water
bottle cages so no reason not to do it for lights.

[sms]

True, but the dynamos are a holdover from the days of incandescent
bulbs. There's not much incentive to change now.

[sms]

On 9/13/2017 10:46 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>
>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>
>> [1]
>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>
> It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
> when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
> of a bicycle.

There's little competition in dynamo hubs and an extremely limited
market for higher efficiency hubs that would require different lights.

If someone could build a 6W hub that could be rectified and power and
charge a decent commute light then it'd be great, but most riders that
need that much light for commuting have already moved on.

[sms]

<http://www.herrmans.eu/start-english/products?familyId=2209>

I've had one person (hard to find many people with dynamo lights at all
in the U.S.) with the super-expensive Supernova light wonder ask me
about it since they wonder why their lights aren't illuminating as well
despite the higher lumen rating. It's all in the optics. The Herrman's
optics are especially well designed. Even at $100 it's not a cheap light
though. And there's no flash function. And you have to order it from
Europe of course.

[James]

On 11/09/17 19:40, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> James wrote:
>> On 09/09/17 18:24, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>> bob prohaska wrote:
>>>> Many years ago a fairly quantitative report on the performance of
>>>> bicycle lighting dynamos was published on the Web. The link is
>>>> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
>>>>
>>>> Most of the brands named are long gone. Is there a more modern
>>>> report of similar quality to be found? I've looked and found nothing
>>>> remotely quantitative, just a lot of exuberant descriptions. There
>>>> seem to be a considerable number of new (mostly hub) dynamos, hopefully
>>>> somebody has measured what they can do.

>>>
>>> As the more recent tests were mostly conducted "by SON's Andreas Oehler or
>>> one of his buddies," they have not met r.b.t's stringent anti-corruption
>>> criteria:
>>>
>>> <https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/>
>
>

>> My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now. I guess
>> that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.
>
> Good to hear, good for you!
>
> How many indoor/outdoor temperature cycles at 100% humidity,

I don't store my bicycle indoors.

> how much frost,

Never had icicles forming on it.

> road salt,

I don't think we get salted roads in Australia. At least none that I am
aware of.

> Joerg-ific Wisconsin winters has it been exposed to?
>

None. I don't live there. We get some 100% humidity and some mornings
where the temperature drops to just below zero. Does that help?

>> Characteristics very similar to a SON, but without the price tag,
>
> ... and without the virtue-signaling at taxpayer's (and their daughters')
> expense, I shall add.
>
> 5 year warranty, too? Admittedly, this has lost much appeal since SON
> updated the construction and the entire hub needs to be sent for service.
>

--
JS

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/14/2017 9:48 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> If someone could build a 6W hub that could be rectified and power and
> charge a decent commute light then it'd be great, but most riders that

Think they

> need that much light for commuting have already moved on.

IFTFY.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

So is electricity in general. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[bob prohaska]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not to argue but why is the "clawpole armature" used in automotive
> "alternators".
> --

The power output of any given electrical machine is proportional to operating
frequency (within some rather broad limits). If you want high power, the
easiest way to get it is using high(er) frequency. Clawpole designs are
mechanically strong and relatively cheap to manufacture.

http://www.rle.mit.edu/per/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Lorilla-Topologies-I.pdf
states in part:
The salient pole synchronous generator has
the highest electrical output per pound per rpm among all
generators according to a NASA study published in 1965 [9].
It also has the lowest reactances and therefore its regulation
and transient performance are the best.


bob prohaska

[John B.]

Thanks for that.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sepp Ruf]

James wrote:
> On 11/09/17 19:40, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>> James wrote:

>>> My SP PV8 hub dynamo has been in service for a few years now. I guess
>>> that means it's done near 30,000km already, with no issues to report.
>>
>> Good to hear, good for you!
>>
>> How many indoor/outdoor temperature cycles at 100% humidity,
>
> I don't store my bicycle indoors.
>
>> how much frost,
>
> Never had icicles forming on it.

There we go, dynamo hubs are lossy! They get so hot that any precipitation
just evaporates!!

>> road salt,
>
> I don't think we get salted roads in Australia. At least none that I am
> aware of.
>
>> Joerg-ific Wisconsin winters has it been exposed to?
>>
>
> None. I don't live there. We get some 100% humidity and some mornings
> where the temperature drops to just below zero. Does that help?

No :-) I'm tempted to get one nice blue PV8 at the price of three dull,
heavy Shimano "thirtysomethings," but I only have a choice of keeping it
away from either winter-salted roads or subtropical coastal ones.

[Ralph Barone]

Sure. If we can jam multiple GFLOPS of processing power into a phone, we
can surely make an SMPS that can handle the output of a hub dynamo. Hell,
we were able to make multi hundred MW AC-DC-AC converters in 1967 using
vacuum tubes.

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 1:56:03 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Hell,
> we were able to make multi hundred MW AC-DC-AC converters in 1967 using
> vacuum tubes.

Now you're speaking my language!

Andre Jute
Fidelista
(No, not that one, he's wormfood and good riddance to bad rubbish, too)

[Andre Jute]

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 4:57:50 AM UTC+1, bob prohaska wrote:

>...any guidance...

Bike lamps and particularly bike dynamo lamps are at the level of 6V VW dim/dip lamps, if you are venerable enough to remember those. They became that good, i.o.w. barely sufficient, only in the last ten years, with the advent of the reflector technology associated with the Busch & Muller Cyo. All the remaining failures of this lamp, and of hub dynamos in general, are traceable to silly regulations made by German legislators. In particular, the lamp doesn't throw high enough to see stop signs on country lane crossing where I live, because of the flat-top cutoff.

I have both high and low quality Shimano hub dynamos and SON. I wouldn't pay the premium for a SON, but the one I have was already on a bike I was getting a huge discount on, and I was already imposing on the dealer to swap out other parts more critical to my use of the bike. You don't need a better hub dynamo than the Shimano with replaceable bearings, whatever it's number is now. For city and town riding at night, and during the day if you want daylight running lamps, the Shimano is superior in that it comes up to speed faster than the very old-fashioned SON.

It's a mistake to think that daylight running lamps have a lesser requirement; DRL in fact have more stringent requirements. The BUMM lamps have DRL from separate LED, and miserable it is too, barely better than nothing, and perhaps worse it causes undue confidence in the rider. Since the main lamp LEDs have an essentially unlimited MTBF, I just switch my lamps on when the bike arrives and never switch them off again: I run the main lamps day and night. Careful: there's also an automatic day/night switching option, which looks like an extra cost, but the lamp with it is often the cheapest at the European discounters, so I buy that one, but carefully switch it out for good, forever, so that in daylight my lamps run full strength.

These BUMM lamps, front and rear, may be the best available at any reasonable price, and at least they aren't the sort of inadequate crap BUMM pushed until about ten years ago, but you should be aware that none of them have a blinking mode, another failure of imagination by the German legislators, though you can easily build electronics to add a flash mode. I used to run additional lamps for flash mode but no longer do because the Cyo lamps, running their nighttime mode in the day, are strong enough to be easily seen when the bike itself (it's British Racing Green) is nearly invisible in the shade of trees overhanging the road, a common condition here.

Finally, I have a Cateye taillight, No. TL-LD1100, which many thought the best battery rear lamp generally available, which runs 200 hours on a pair of AA batteries and has flashing modes. I never found anything that economical for the front of the bike, but a 200 hour life for even one of your lamps isn't a nuisance at the level of lamps that chew a set of batteries on every ride or every second or third ride.

On your question about the likelihood of improvements to hub dynamos, the answer is the sameoldsameold: The German legislators fixed the dynamo's output and there is no incentive whatsoever to improve it, only costs and protracted struggles with bureaucracy. In any event, BUMM and SON and the German lobbyists paid by Shimano and BUMM would be the big losers of any new legislative dispensation because currently by virtue of primacy they enjoy a near monopoly -- vide Sepp Ruf's sarcastic remarks about complaints that tests conducted on the products of competitors by the SON employee Andreas Oehler are at best suspect and more than likely worthless because of his involuntary bias: they wouldn't be so brazen about it in a better-regulated field with real competition. Nor can foreign competitors make radical innovations, because the German legislation results in certain expectations of OEM suppliers by all the big bike makers, who are the major market, not individuals like you'n'me. Sorry, but you're screwed before you start down that road -- and that also explains why James' hub dynamo is so little better than a SON or a Shimano, and why every tiny gain is shouted from the rooftops like they just discovered the Grand Unified Theory Einstein failed to discover: those designers had to keep looking over their shoulders at the German legislation.

Andre Jute
Luminous

[Joerg]

Yes.

> I'd have thought that causes problems.

Nope :-)

>
> But then, I'm not an EE.
>

If charging a battery plus driving a light (which is the proper setup,
like in a motor vehicle) it is advantageous to run the converter in
"maxiumum power point tracking" or MPPT mode. That is what solar
converters mostly do as well. A small processor dithers the "conversion
factor" (input to output voltage) slightly around while constantly
calculating the output power, indicating whether the maximum power point
is drifting higher, lower, or remains constant. Mostly depending on
riding speed in this case. When the load demand is met, the battery full
and lights at full brightness, it has to back off in the direction of
causing the least amount of mechanical load. The latter isn't a concern
with solar panels.

On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or becomes
critically low. Another potential feature could be energy harvesting
downhill by maximizing the power output during those times. 3-axis
sensors could help determining such conditions automatically. Endless
possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it becomes
"technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.

As usual don't expect to see this at bike shops anytime soon.

Sort of OT but funny: Yesterday I stood at a red traffic light in the
middle of the lane and my road bike started making a wee-wee. A puddle
formed underneath the BB, meaning below where the saddle is ...
embarrassing. Turns out my water bottle had developed a circumferential
hair-crack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Joerg]

Not for switching inductors because those are handled inherently by the
design of the switching regulator. However, there will be other
inductive spikes due to generator inductance and cabling inductance.
You'll have to muffle spikes that could exceed any absolute maximum
ratings of components either via capacitance or a transient voltage
suppressor (TVS). A TVS is essentially a fat glorified zener diode.
Important is to also consider the case of an erratic cable connection
which should not cause the electronics to fry.

Easy to do.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-14 12:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/14/2017 1:46 AM, bob prohaska wrote:
>> Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to
>>> see a
>>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>>> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from
>>> CNC
>>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>>
>> It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
>> when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
>> of a bicycle.
>>
>> In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
>> starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
>> opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.
>
> Well, dynamos are not limited to 3 Watts. As James and others have
> discussed, they'll put out more power if presented with bigger loads,
> i.e. more resistance.

Ummm, not quite. More resistance doesn't always mean bigger load, it
only does so if you let the voltage rise. For any speed there is a
resistance that will result in a maximum of the delivered electrical
power. That resistance and the maximum power vary with speed.


> ... They're essentially constant current devices. I

> used to occasionally drive two halogen headlamps from my Soubitez roller
> dynamo. Others do it with hub dynos. (It doesn't work well with a bottle
> dyno, though, because the smaller drive roller is more prone to slipping.)
>

What happens is that the current isn't very constant. Many dynamos will
go to 700mA and higher if you put the coals on. That was the reason I
constantly blew light bulbs as a teenager until I finally
"electronicized" my bikes and installed a recharcheable battery.

> Second, despite the current fashion for mega-lumen lights, I've seen no
> evidence that road cyclists need them, and I've seen the disadvantages.
> IME, a good B&M LED headlight lights up a stop sign nearly 1/4 mile way.
> It also illuminates the road very well; and with ever-improving LEDs,
> the current models are probably better than the ones I own.
>
> And it's a little ironic that the mega-lumen fans choose to ignore poor
> optical design in their headlights, leading to inferior illumination
> while blinding others. I think that's a bigger problem than a few
> percent less theoretical efficiency in the dynamo.
>

There are people who disagree with you on that, such a yours truly.

> Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
> hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
> their stereo speakers while they ride!

My MP3 player is really helpful when riding boring stretches of prairie
on the MTB or long lone climbs on the road bike. Plus it helps drown out
the constant din of traffic when riding on roads. I used it for 2-1/2h
of the 4h ride yesterday.

>> At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.
>
> I've got two that are working very well. They're decades old. One was a
> gift, from a friend who ripped out its output wire. A little solder
> fixed that.
>

Nowadays you'll have to run them on the rim or the tire's road surface
though. Sidewalls have become too flimsy, they'd likely even wear with
your o-ring trick.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-14 13:02, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:26:34 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
> wrote: <snip>
>
>> Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit
>> from a hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say)
>> playing their stereo speakers while they ride!
>>> At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it
>>> out.
>
> Careful, there . . . Joerg runs speakers. The noise keeps the
> mountain lions away.
>
> I wan't to slap the dopes with speakers on their bikes -- make them
> crash into the guys with earbuds who then domino into the guys
> talking or texting on their iPhones. I wish the great heel of Yahweh
> would come down and crush all those devices -- at least while in use
> on bikes.
>

One has to use them judiciously and not too loudly. As for animals: Once
I was gently herding a cow back to her pasture, playing cowboy with my
MTB. At the end she shoved herself through the fence she probably busted
out from, so fast that it seemed like it wasn't her first "excursion".
This caused the fence to make loud twanging noises and that made the
herd nervous. Singing calms herds but I can't sing at all. So I turned
on the MP3 player and set it to a smooth African tune. That did it.

[...]

[Joerg]

I did, simply mounting a Li-Ion battery block on each bike. The MTB has
four 18650 cells, the road bike has eight. That turned out to be
sufficient for my usual rides.

In the old days (70's and up) I also had a dynamo that charged the
battery. Back then lead-acid, later NiCd. Now with the Li-Ion I didn't
feel that urge because they pack so much energy. When my front rim is up
I might consider a new wheel with a hub dynamo if one is available at
not much more than a wheel sans dynamo. Then I could drop to two or four
18650 cells for the road bike.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/15/2017 1:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
> uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or becomes
> critically low. Another potential feature could be energy harvesting
> downhill by maximizing the power output during those times. 3-axis
> sensors could help determining such conditions automatically. Endless
> possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it becomes
> "technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.

I do think the complications you propose would not make sense. The gains
would be too small to justify the expense of the design and manufacturing.

We've reached a stage where a spinning dynamo driving an LED light with
decent optics provides plenty of light for all road cyclists except
perhaps those with very unusual riding conditions. (Of course, they
don't provide enough light for those with unusual levels of paranoia,
but that's a separate matter.) This system is permanently mounted on the
bike, just like the corresponding components on a car. It's ready at the
flick of a switch and it's extremely reliable, requiring not even
tending to batteries. It has almost no downsides except, perhaps, first
cost; and those buying boutique frames, tires, wheels, cranks and
shifters shouldn't complain about cost.

I see no need to complicate such a successful system.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 1:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
>> uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or
>> becomes critically low. Another potential feature could be energy
>> harvesting downhill by maximizing the power output during those times.
>> 3-axis sensors could help determining such conditions automatically.
>> Endless possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it
>> becomes "technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.
>
> I do think the complications you propose would not make sense. The gains
> would be too small to justify the expense of the design and manufacturing.
>

MPPT would sure make sense for any real system with on-board battery.
It's not rocket science anymore these days. The other stuff is more candy.

> We've reached a stage where a spinning dynamo driving an LED light with
> decent optics provides plenty of light for all road cyclists except
> perhaps those with very unusual riding conditions. (Of course, they
> don't provide enough light for those with unusual levels of paranoia,
> but that's a separate matter.)

As I've said before try out some real trail riding. At half brightness I
can comfortably ride at 10mph at night, at full bore of about 1000
lumens 15mph is feasible. For 20mph I'd need more but I don't have to
ride the singletrack that fast at night.


> ... This system is permanently mounted on the

> bike, just like the corresponding components on a car. It's ready at the
> flick of a switch and it's extremely reliable, requiring not even
> tending to batteries.

How does it keep the lights at full brightness during a long uphill
slog? Like some of these sections:

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5041564


> ... It has almost no downsides except, perhaps, first

> cost; and those buying boutique frames, tires, wheels, cranks and
> shifters shouldn't complain about cost.
>
> I see no need to complicate such a successful system.
>

Not sure what kind of system you are talking about right now.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/15/2017 2:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-15 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> We've reached a stage where a spinning dynamo driving an LED light with
>> decent optics provides plenty of light for all road cyclists except
>> perhaps those with very unusual riding conditions. (Of course, they
>> don't provide enough light for those with unusual levels of paranoia,
>> but that's a separate matter.)
>
> As I've said before try out some real trail riding. At half brightness I
> can comfortably ride at 10mph at night, at full bore of about 1000
> lumens 15mph is feasible. For 20mph I'd need more but I don't have to
> ride the singletrack that fast at night.

Do a search for the word "road" in my post above. I'm not claiming gonzo
mountain bikers should switch to hub dynamos - although I have done
forest single track with my utility bike and its hub dyno and B&M light.
I suspect I rode much slower than enthusiastic mountain bikers would
want to ride.

>
>>                       ... This system is permanently mounted on the
>> bike, just like the corresponding components on a car. It's ready at the
>> flick of a switch and it's extremely reliable, requiring not even
>> tending to batteries.
>
>
> How does it keep the lights at full brightness during a long uphill
> slog? Like some of these sections:
>
> https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5041564

The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.

For decades I rode home from work climbing the hill of a river valley.
There was one pitch with 10% grade, and a lot more with about 5% to 6%
grade. I did this with a roller dyno driving a halogen headlamp. I never
experienced a problem.

And as mentioned, that system (plus its tailight, an additional low-tech
blinkie and reflectors) was the setup that got spontaneous compliments
from various motorists. "I could see you from way back there!" etc.

>>       ... It has almost no downsides except, perhaps, first
>> cost; and those buying boutique frames, tires, wheels, cranks and
>> shifters shouldn't complain about cost.
>>
>> I see no need to complicate such a successful system.
>>
>
> Not sure what kind of system you are talking about right now.

I'm talking about a decent dynamo driving a decent LED headlight with
optics optimized for the road. Oh, and an ordinary taillight plus
reflectors.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On 9/15/2017 2:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-15 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> We've reached a stage where a spinning dynamo driving an LED light with
>>> decent optics provides plenty of light for all road cyclists except
>>> perhaps those with very unusual riding conditions. (Of course, they
>>> don't provide enough light for those with unusual levels of paranoia,
>>> but that's a separate matter.)
>>
>> As I've said before try out some real trail riding. At half brightness
>> I can comfortably ride at 10mph at night, at full bore of about 1000
>> lumens 15mph is feasible. For 20mph I'd need more but I don't have to
>> ride the singletrack that fast at night.
>
> Do a search for the word "road" in my post above. I'm not claiming gonzo
> mountain bikers should switch to hub dynamos - although I have done
> forest single track with my utility bike and its hub dyno and B&M light.
> I suspect I rode much slower than enthusiastic mountain bikers would
> want to ride.
>

In many areas of the country such as where I live there is often no
choice. Even on my road bike I have to travel partly along trails. One
of the many reasons why both bikes have the same light, except the raod
bike sarries twice the battery capacity.

>>
>>> ... This system is permanently mounted on the
>>> bike, just like the corresponding components on a car. It's ready at the
>>> flick of a switch and it's extremely reliable, requiring not even
>>> tending to batteries.
>>
>>
>> How does it keep the lights at full brightness during a long uphill
>> slog? Like some of these sections:
>>
>> https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5041564
>
> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
>

Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
along and doesn't see you in time.

> For decades I rode home from work climbing the hill of a river valley.
> There was one pitch with 10% grade, and a lot more with about 5% to 6%
> grade. I did this with a roller dyno driving a halogen headlamp. I never
> experienced a problem.
>
> And as mentioned, that system (plus its tailight, an additional low-tech
> blinkie and reflectors) was the setup that got spontaneous compliments
> from various motorists. "I could see you from way back there!" etc.
>

That wasn't my impression when I was in Germany lately, after they
switched to "better" lights.

>>> ... It has almost no downsides except, perhaps, first
>>> cost; and those buying boutique frames, tires, wheels, cranks and
>>> shifters shouldn't complain about cost.
>>>
>>> I see no need to complicate such a successful system.
>>>
>>
>> Not sure what kind of system you are talking about right now.
>
> I'm talking about a decent dynamo driving a decent LED headlight with
> optics optimized for the road. Oh, and an ordinary taillight plus
> reflectors.
>

To me that "system" is incomplete without a battery.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
>> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
>> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
>> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
>>
>
> Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
> along and doesn't see you in time.

Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"

If I'm climbing a steep hill riding on the right side of the road, and a
redneck is soused enough to cross all the way over to hit me head on, I
don't think extra lumens from my headlamp are going to make much
difference. That sort of guy would be as likely to hit head-on another
guy driving a pickup.

Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

As I and others have said here, cyclists seem to get more clearance and
care from motorists in the daytime than at night. There have been
countless times that motorists either waited to turn left across my
path, or waited to pull out from stop signs, when I was at least half a
block away. They could have made their move five times, but they waited
for me until I passed.

Also, as I've reported, I clearly recall the night I was driving and saw
our city's most dedicated utility cyclist when he was about at least a
block away, coming toward me at night on a fairly busy city street. His
headlight at the time? A Cateye halogen light powered by two C cells. It
was probably half as bright as the dynamo light I was using at the time.

>> I'm talking about a decent dynamo driving a decent LED headlight with
>> optics optimized for the road. Oh, and an ordinary taillight plus
>> reflectors.
>
> To me that "system" is incomplete without a battery.

But everyone else should realize that to you, a bike is incomplete if it
doesn't have motorcycle-grade tires, chain and brakes, plus the ability
to carry a full keg of beer. Your requirements are rather unusual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
>>> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
>>> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
>>> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
>>>
>>
>> Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
>> along and doesn't see you in time.
>
> Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"
>

One of them just killed another cyclist here, from behind. This time it
was an off-duty police office one the bike who died. Now you can stick
you head back into the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

> If I'm climbing a steep hill riding on the right side of the road, and a
> redneck is soused enough to cross all the way over to hit me head on, I
> don't think extra lumens from my headlamp are going to make much
> difference. That sort of guy would be as likely to hit head-on another
> guy driving a pickup.
>

Most come from behind. That is why I have very bright rear lights as
well, and multiple ones.

> Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
> in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
> Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
>

Roughly every month in NorCal. The larger number of people who got hit
and hurt is not reported in newspapers. I had numerous close calls
myself so I know.

> As I and others have said here, cyclists seem to get more clearance and
> care from motorists in the daytime than at night. There have been
> countless times that motorists either waited to turn left across my
> path, or waited to pull out from stop signs, when I was at least half a
> block away. They could have made their move five times, but they waited
> for me until I passed.
>

For me it's two blocks when the light is on high 8-)

> Also, as I've reported, I clearly recall the night I was driving and saw
> our city's most dedicated utility cyclist when he was about at least a
> block away, coming toward me at night on a fairly busy city street. His
> headlight at the time? A Cateye halogen light powered by two C cells. It
> was probably half as bright as the dynamo light I was using at the time.
>

The best one here is a guy where you think from a mile a way that a
Union Pacific locomotive is approaching. Nobody fails to see him.

>>> I'm talking about a decent dynamo driving a decent LED headlight with
>>> optics optimized for the road. Oh, and an ordinary taillight plus
>>> reflectors.
>>
>> To me that "system" is incomplete without a battery.
>
> But everyone else should realize that to you, a bike is incomplete if it
> doesn't have motorcycle-grade tires, chain and brakes, plus the ability
> to carry a full keg of beer. Your requirements are rather unusual.
>

No, they are utility-based. I am one of the few riders here who can ride
3000mi without a flat. As for beer, I could easily carry a whole crate,
on the MTB as well as the road bike. A bicycle without trunk space is
IMO a sub-par vehicle and not very useful to me. BTW, I am not the only
one around town who thinks that way and mods his bikes accordingly. A
71-year old rider in our village immediately equips a new bike with a
trailer hitch, else it's incomplete to him.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 3:55:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
> >> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
> >> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
> >> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
> >>
> >
> > Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
> > along and doesn't see you in time.
>
> Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"
>
> If I'm climbing a steep hill riding on the right side of the road, and a
> redneck is soused enough to cross all the way over to hit me head on, I
> don't think extra lumens from my headlamp are going to make much
> difference. That sort of guy would be as likely to hit head-on another
> guy driving a pickup.

You may actually attract him, like a moth. You will certainly attract the back of my hand if you run a >1000 lumen headlight on a MUP.

On multi-lane roads, headlights aren't for preventing head-ons. That's what center-lines are for. Headlights get the attention of cars turning or entering traffic.

A headlight might prevent a head-on on a single lane road with blind curves at night, particularly if an on-coming car can see a light on the other side of a curve. But considering that drunk drivers run head-on into other cars with bright lights all the time, its unlikely that a bright light on a bike would make much difference with a drunk in a tight situation like that.

A bright light will get the attention of people who are actually paying attention (assuming that there are not a lot of confusing light sources), and it will help you see the road -- but you don't need >1000 lumens to do either of those things on a dry night. I rarely use the 800 lumen setting on my all-in-one or the 1400 lumen setting on my Seca. I use that on dark trail only.

As for DRLs, the benefit of DRLs was supposedly proved with flea-watt, hub level magnet powered lights. https://www.reelight.com/en/products/sl200/sl250/sl250-steady-light-set/ The flashlight on my iPhone dwarfs the light output of a Reelight.

My dyno light is clearly lacking in some situations, but 2K and 3K lumen lights are pretty dopey on the road. And one of the most noticeable DRLs I've seen lately was a SuperNova E3 that passed me going the other way in SLC. So for DRLs, dynos would be perfect -- assuming you need to be running a light nonstop all day.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really
>>>> that
>>>> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
>>>> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
>>>> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
>>> along and doesn't see you in time.
>>
>> Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"
>>
>
> One of them just killed another cyclist here, from behind. This time it
> was an off-duty police office one the bike who died. Now you can stick
> you head back into the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

I thought we were talking about a drunk crossing to the wrong side of
the road and hitting a person head-on because he was climbing a hill
with a dynamo headlight. Don't pretend that's what happened.

Yes, I know that cyclists get killed by cars. That happens about 750
times per year. I also know that pedestrians get killed by cars, about
4500 per year, and motorists get killed in cars, about 35,000 per year.
Don't stick your head in the sand, Joerg!

>> Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
>> in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
>> Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
>>
>
> Roughly every month in NorCal.

Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his dynamo
light is too dim? Baloney.

> The larger number of people who got hit
> and hurt is not reported in newspapers. I had numerous close calls
> myself so I know.

The far larger number of pedestrians who get hit and hurt is also not
reported in newspapers. And close calls happen to them as well as to
motorists, motorcyclists, inline skaters, pogo stick operators and
housewives washing dishes.

>> Also, as I've reported, I clearly recall the night I was driving and saw
>> our city's most dedicated utility cyclist when he was about at least a
>> block away, coming toward me at night on a fairly busy city street. His
>> headlight at the time? A Cateye halogen light powered by two C cells. It
>> was probably half as bright as the dynamo light I was using at the time.
>>
>
> The best one here is a guy where you think from a mile a way that a
> Union Pacific locomotive is approaching. Nobody fails to see him.

So, another jerk who thinks he needs to blind other road users. Wonderful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:01:59 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But why should a "red neck" driving a pickup be soused?
any more than a bicyclist?

After all:
https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/study-links-alcohol-and-bike-deaths/?mcubz=1
Some 21 percent of autopsies for New York City bicyclists who died
within three hours of their accidents detected alcohol in the body,
according to a Department of Health and Mental Hygiene study that
examined fatal bicycling accidents in New York City from 1996 to 2005.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/fatalityfacts/bicycles
Among bicyclists ages 16 and older who were killed in 2015, 23 percent
had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08 percent.
http://www.bhsi.org/alcohol.htm
Blood alcohol levels were estimated from medical records, visits to
crash sites and testing of 342 passing bicyclists for breath alcohol.
At the .08 grams/deciliter level, legally drunk in most states, the
odds of a fatal or serious injury rose by 2,000 per cent. The risk
rose as alcohol rose, beginning at a 600 per cent increase if the
blood level was only .02 grams/deciliter, equivalent to one drink. The
.08 level is typically associated with four to five drinks.

Sounds like it isn't the Redneck we have to look out for it is the
drunken bicyclist.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 16:15:37 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But the numbers are out there. I read, for example:

http://www.geklaw.com/pi_bicycle_stats_and_facts.htm
California Highway Patrol gathered statistics for 1,997 accidents
which show that the bicyclist was placed at fault approximately sixty
percent of the time where the rider was severely injured or sustained
fatal injuries.
www.ots.ca.gov/Media.../2015_Annual_Performance_Report.pdf
128 bicycle fatalities.
Assuming that the CHP isn't telling lies had the 128 bicycle
fatalities been obeying the law the number would have read "Bicycle
Deaths Reach 51.2".

Danger! Danger!

--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

You could add speed-based intensity of the light with the load shedding
since when going slowly up hill you need less intensity, plus you want
less load.

> Sort of OT but funny: Yesterday I stood at a red traffic light in the
> middle of the lane and my road bike started making a wee-wee. A puddle
> formed underneath the BB, meaning below where the saddle is ...
> embarrassing. Turns out my water bottle had developed a circumferential
> hair-crack.

Oh no, now you're going to go off on a tangent about how no one make
sturdy enough water bottles for you.

[sms]

And of course the fact that you're charging a phone doesn't meen that
you're using it while you're riding.

While the American River Trail is pretty quiet, there's some MUPs around
here that are noisy from traffic. Los Gatos Creek Trail is next to CA 17
for a portion of it, and Stevens Creek Trail is near CA 85 for part of it.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 18:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really
>>>>> that
>>>>> great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
>>>>> don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
>>>>> dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
>>>> along and doesn't see you in time.
>>>
>>> Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"
>>>
>>
>> One of them just killed another cyclist here, from behind. This time
>> it was an off-duty police office one the bike who died. Now you can
>> stick you head back into the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.
>
> I thought we were talking about a drunk crossing to the wrong side of
> the road and hitting a person head-on because he was climbing a hill
> with a dynamo headlight. Don't pretend that's what happened.
>

I didn't pretend but yes, that has also happened.

> Yes, I know that cyclists get killed by cars. That happens about 750
> times per year. I also know that pedestrians get killed by cars, about
> 4500 per year, and motorists get killed in cars, about 35,000 per year.
> Don't stick your head in the sand, Joerg!
>

Again, it's not only about those killed but also about a much larger
number that survives. Some of which with what the med folks call
life-changing injuries.

>>> Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
>>> in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
>>> Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
>>>
>>
>> Roughly every month in NorCal.
>
> Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his dynamo
> light is too dim? Baloney.
>

No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A vehicle
that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is always at
higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed. The risk goes
up as the speed goes down.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 19:48, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:01:59 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/15/2017 2:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-09-15 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>

[...]

Drunken cyclists are a problem, especially since many people resort to a
bicycle after losing their license due to DUI and then they don't really
know how to handle a bicycle in traffic.

However, I can't remember any of the hit-from-behind or
hit-from-the-front fatal accidents here reported as being caused by a
drunken cyclists. They were caused by drunken motorists, reckless ones,
aggressive ones and people fleeing from police or a crime scene in a car.

No matter, Frank can lament all day long, I know for a fact that since I
have bright lights front and back the number of close calls has
substantially dropped. So as far as lighting is concerned, mission
accomplished.

[jbeattie]

Doesn't matter whether the cyclist has a light or not. Doesn't matter whether the cyclist is in bed or watching TV. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/01/car_crashes_into_house_in_sout.html Really, drunks will kill you in your dreams. And they're everywhere -- under your skin, whispering in your ear ". . . Joerg . . . Joerg . . . I'm coming for you."

The only thing that will keep them away is a carbon-arc search light and an exorcism. You can get the light from Deal Extreme. Order today -- and talk to a Catholic priest. If you're a Lutheran, you're f*****. Might as well feed yourself to the mountain lions.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 06:57, sms wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

>> If charging a battery plus driving a light (which is the proper setup,
>> like in a motor vehicle) it is advantageous to run the converter in
>> "maxiumum power point tracking" or MPPT mode. That is what solar
>> converters mostly do as well. A small processor dithers the
>> "conversion factor" (input to output voltage) slightly around while
>> constantly calculating the output power, indicating whether the
>> maximum power point is drifting higher, lower, or remains constant.
>> Mostly depending on riding speed in this case. When the load demand is
>> met, the battery full and lights at full brightness, it has to back
>> off in the direction of causing the least amount of mechanical load.
>> The latter isn't a concern with solar panels.
>>
>> On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
>> uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or
>> becomes critically low. Another potential feature could be energy
>> harvesting downhill by maximizing the power output during those times.
>> 3-axis sensors could help determining such conditions automatically.
>> Endless possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it
>> becomes "technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.
>>
>> As usual don't expect to see this at bike shops anytime soon.
>
> You could add speed-based intensity of the light with the load shedding
> since when going slowly up hill you need less intensity, plus you want
> less load.
>

On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.

As for speed input a hub dynamo provides that information because it
delivers AC. So if bikes would have a real electrical system (though
it's probably an illusion that ever happens ...) the ones with hub
dynamos would no longer need the old magnetic pickup at the fork.

>> Sort of OT but funny: Yesterday I stood at a red traffic light in the
>> middle of the lane and my road bike started making a wee-wee. A puddle
>> formed underneath the BB, meaning below where the saddle is ...
>> embarrassing. Turns out my water bottle had developed a
>> circumferential hair-crack.
>
> Oh no, now you're going to go off on a tangent about how no one make
> sturdy enough water bottles for you.
>

To some extent true, the usually aren't MTB-proof. But cheap enough. The
ones riding in the panniers are all stainless steel.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 07:01, sms wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-14 12:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>> Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
>>> hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
>>> their stereo speakers while they ride!
>>
>>
>> My MP3 player is really helpful when riding boring stretches of
>> prairie on the MTB or long lone climbs on the road bike. Plus it helps
>> drown out the constant din of traffic when riding on roads. I used it
>> for 2-1/2h of the 4h ride yesterday.
>
> And of course the fact that you're charging a phone doesn't meen that
> you're using it while you're riding.
>

If I had a smart phone I'd be running it all the time, it would become
the "cycling computer" and the map. Else I wouldn't really know what I'd
need a smart phone for. My tiny "old-style" cell phone doesn't need
charging since it runs over 100h per charge in receive-only mode. I use
30 "free" minutes per month and most of those keep piling up and up.

> While the American River Trail is pretty quiet, there's some MUPs around
> here that are noisy from traffic. Los Gatos Creek Trail is next to CA 17
> for a portion of it, and Stevens Creek Trail is near CA 85 for part of it.

Luckily most of ours aren't noisy, far enough away from traffic. My
favorites are the singletrack paths where when you stop all you hear is
the wind, the occasional call of an animal and maybe an airlines flying
by at 40000ft.

The only really noisy bike path I know around here is the one from
Sacramento to Davis because it runs right along I-80:

http://www.davisenterprise.com/files/2013/09/W4-bike-commuteW-1024x682.jpg

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 7:34:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-15 18:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>>>> Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway?
>>>>> Perhaps once in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you
>>>>> can imagine something, Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to
>>>>> happen.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roughly every month in NorCal.
>>>
>>> Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his
>>> dynamo light is too dim? Baloney.
>>>
>>
>> No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A
>> vehicle that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less
>> is always at higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same
>> speed. The risk goes up as the speed goes down.
>
> Doesn't matter whether the cyclist has a light or not. Doesn't matter
> whether the cyclist is in bed or watching TV.
> http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/01/car_crashes_into_house_in_sout.html
> Really, drunks will kill you in your dreams. And they're everywhere
> -- under your skin, whispering in your ear ". . . Joerg . . . Joerg .
> . . I'm coming for you."
>

There could also be a meteorite hit on the MUP. IIRC that almost
happened ion Chelyabinsk, in Russia.

Hopefully there was no MUP going through here :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlVL8JRn9BI

> The only thing that will keep them away is a carbon-arc search light
> and an exorcism. You can get the light from Deal Extreme. Order today
> -- and talk to a Catholic priest. If you're a Lutheran, you're
> f*****. Might as well feed yourself to the mountain lions.
>

Well, I am a Lutheran so I guess that's not going to work :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/16/2017 10:34 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A vehicle
> that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is always at
> higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed. The risk goes
> up as the speed goes down.

More bullshit, Joerg, or at least, more ignorance of data.

Motorcyclists have a fatality per hour rate roughly 30 times higher than
bicyclists. You can't say that risk goes up as speed goes down.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/16/2017 10:46 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> No matter, Frank can lament all day long, I know for a fact that since I
> have bright lights front and back the number of close calls has
> substantially dropped. So as far as lighting is concerned, mission
> accomplished.

And I can say precisely the same thing about my learning to ride more
toward lane center, instead of at the road edge.

I suppose if you are terrified enough to hide near the gutter, you may
have a lot of close calls. That's pretty common. And I suppose glaring
bright lights might reduce those gutter-induced close calls a bit. But
riding more prominently as permitted by law does more, even though you
refuse to understand this.

See http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5V_qUagGc&feature=youtu.be


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.

Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?

I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
compliments from motorists.

All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need super-bright
lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.

The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 9/14/2017 4:43 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>

>>> On 9/14/2017 10:26 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:

>>>> bob prohaska <b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:
>>>>> Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to see a
>>>>>> big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
>>>>>> smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
>>>>>> grows sick of the Soubitez. Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from CNC
>>>>>> Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
>>>>>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
>>>>> when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
>>>>> of a bicycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
>>>>> starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
>>>>> opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.
>>>>>

>>>>> I still don't understand why high-end builders like Schmidt don't use
>>>>> salient-pole armatures, which could be constructed from standard motor
>>>>> laminations (instead of the custom clawpole monolith used now). That
>>>>> would shorten the iron path dramatically, reducing reluctance, reduce
>>>>> the length of copper, reducing resistance. The performance gains can
>>>>> be traded for lighter weight, higher efficiency or higher power.
>>>>> Every motor builder in the world does it that way, why not dyamo hub
>>>>> builders? Maybe there _is_ a technical reason, but it certainly isn't
>>>>> apparent to me. The use of incandescent bulbs may have set the tradition,
>>>>> but it's certainly no reason to continue.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>
>>>> Machine theory is a bit of a black art for me, but I suspect that the "less
>>>> optimized" magnetics in hub dynamos provides the extra leakage inductance
>>>> required to make it self regulate into a 12 ohm load. I fully agree that a
>>>> less well regulated output plus a switching regulator could work very well
>>>> with modern electronics.
>>>
>>> Is it feasible to use a switching regulator when you've got as much

>>> inductance as a typical hub dynamo? I'd have thought that causes
>>> problems.
>>

>> Happens all the time. Google "h-bridge", and notice all those diodes in
>> parallel with the switching components, allowing current always to
>> continue to circulate through some path. Typically the diodes are
>> in the same package as the switching component, eg MOSFET.
>
> So spikes, etc. from switching inductors get to sort of bleed off
> through diodes? Is that the idea? Again, electronics isn't my thing.

Roughly speaking, if you give a current across an inductor a reasonable
path to follow, voltage will not spike until it finds an unreasonable
path. I am familiar (OJT, not education) with the control of motors by
switching amplifiers. During a large part of a typical cycle, when PWM
is "off", currents actually circulate either through the high voltage or
ground bus, slowly wasting power but doing no spectacular harm. The
diodes are to provide a path, from ground to high voltage, during PWM
dead time.

I'm not personally familar with algorithms for controlling dynamos, but
know that with motors in regeneration (braking), it is sometimes
necessary to provide an alternate current path that dissipates power, in
order to prevent unwanted voltage rise. It seems to me that controlling
a permanent magnet dyanamo at part load is probably harder than some
here think it is. Automotive and larger dynamos are normally controlled
by varying the current through the field windings, an option that is not
available for bicycles.

My guess is that claw pole armatures, with their self regulation by
magnetic saturation, are actually a good practical solution. Bicycle
lighting systems must operate usefully at low speed, and usually can't
do anything useful with several times the power at high speed.




--

[Joerg]

As an engineer you should at least try to find the real reasons. They
can be summed up in videos like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtjexSg0SM

[Joerg]

Piece of cake. On lane this narrow I also do that. Now try it on a 55mph
county road. Aside from all the hairy situations you'll soon get pulled
over by Highway Patrol and later pay a painful three-digit fine.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>
>> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
>> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.
>
> Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
> observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?
>
> I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
> with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
> compliments from motorists.
>
> All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need super-bright
> lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.
>

During the day he does. As a motorist I am always thankful for oncoming
cyclists to have bright lights. I see them so early that I can plan on
it, move AFRAP with my car, giving oncoming cars lots of space and their
drivers, in consequence, give the cyclist lots of space.

> The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
> spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
>

Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph on
singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it those 1000
lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see stuff. For slowpokes
that is, of course, a different story.

[Joerg]

Not really. If you have a battery in the system which any dectn vehicle
should, even a tiny one, the controller can make sure that it never gets
charge past an 80-90% mark. For Li-Ion this also greatly increases
service life if the bike is parked for a long period while the battery
is full. Now you always have a means to dumps so load without having to
dissipate anything.


> ... Automotive and larger dynamos are normally controlled

> by varying the current through the field windings, an option that is not
> available for bicycles.
>

But it could be.

> My guess is that claw pole armatures, with their self regulation by
> magnetic saturation, are actually a good practical solution. Bicycle
> lighting systems must operate usefully at low speed, and usually can't
> do anything useful with several times the power at high speed.
>

Unless you have "real" lights like I do on both bicycles which consume
about 3x what puny dynamo lights take in. Then there are smart phone,
MP3 players and such. Sometimes I wish my bikes also had an A/C ...

[AMuzi]

meh.
If that guy grows a pair he could working delivery on a
fixie in NYC.

Warning! Bicycle content:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-I8fpBx-4

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

But by your simplistic statement ("The risk goes up as the speed goes
down") he would be in more danger if he slowed down!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Put your thinking cap on for once. It is obviously the speed
_differential_ that matters. Motorcyclist often go way faster than the
rest of traffic or than is safe. Since they don't have a lot more
protection that cyclists, other than better helmets and maybe leather
suits, they are almost as vulnerable. Except they die more often because
when they crash it's often at high speed.

Without exception all the guys I know who had crashes on motorcycles
didn't have those when flowing with traffic but when they were doing
something stupid. Typically involving speed and acceleration.

[Joerg]

Sure, I've seen those guy places like San Francisco. However, that is a
very small minority of cyclists. With motorcyclists my impression is
that the vast majority takes way too much risk and exceeds speed limits
all the time. For example, on Salmon Falls Road where a few MTB trails
start it is rare to encounter motorcyclists who are not riding like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkWWVryT1UE

[jbeattie]

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 11:34:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
> >> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.
> >
> > Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
> > observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?
> >
> > I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
> > with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
> > compliments from motorists.
> >
> > All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need super-bright
> > lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.
> >
>
> During the day he does. As a motorist I am always thankful for oncoming
> cyclists to have bright lights. I see them so early that I can plan on
> it, move AFRAP with my car, giving oncoming cars lots of space and their
> drivers, in consequence, give the cyclist lots of space.

Really? Are you legally blind? Eight out of ten times I will see a fluorescent jersey before I see a DRL. And as a rider, IME, there is a low correlation between being seen and safe passes. I get close passes with or without my very bright L&M VIS 180 rear light.

>
> > The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
> > spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
> >
>
> Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph on
> singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it those 1000
> lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see stuff. For slowpokes
> that is, of course, a different story.

Depends on the road and the rider. I'm sure there are plenty of PBP riders with dynos doing 25mph in the dark. But sure, the faster you go, the more light you need -- particularly if the road is more like a trail. But for the majority of commuters, super-bright lights are not needed for riding at night. Super-bright DRLs are totally unnecessary IMO. On dreary days I'll run a blinky, but in bright sunshine -- no.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Note that in the video from 3:10 on they're riding AT NIGHT without any lights (never mind mega-lumens lights, or reflectors and they're doing that in heavy traffic and whilst breaking many traffic laws yet they didn't get run over. LOL

Oh, where I ride at night on trails or off road I can ONLY see my way until the next bend or steep section = no extra amount of light is going to increase the distance Icansee. Onthe open road it's a different story and somtimes I'd like a light with more range so that I could see critters like skunks on or near the road earlier. In the meantime I just slow down a bit so that my light shows me what I need to see when I need to see it.

Joerg's riding is different from most everyone elses.

Cheers

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/16/2017 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-16 11:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/16/2017 2:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-16 09:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/16/2017 10:34 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A
>>>>> vehicle that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is
>>>>> always at higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed.
>>>>> The risk goes up as the speed goes down.
>>>>
>>>> More bullshit, Joerg, or at least, more ignorance of data.
>>>>
>>>> Motorcyclists have a fatality per hour rate roughly 30 times higher
>>>> than
>>>> bicyclists. You can't say that risk goes up as speed goes down.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As an engineer you should at least try to find the real reasons. They
>>> can be summed up in videos like this:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtjexSg0SM
>>
>> But by your simplistic statement ("The risk goes up as the speed goes
>> down") he would be in more danger if he slowed down!
>>
>
> Put your thinking cap on for once. It is obviously the speed
> _differential_ that matters.

Joerg, I was quoting what YOU said. Perhaps you should put your thinking
cap on before you post?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/16/2017 2:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
>>> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.
>>
>> Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
>> observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?
>>
>> I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
>> with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
>> compliments from motorists.
>>
>> All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need super-bright
>> lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.
>>

>> The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
>> spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
>>
>
> Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph on
> singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it those 1000
> lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see stuff. For slowpokes
> that is, of course, a different story.

At night, I don't often hit 25 mph. I don't know many cyclists who do.
But when I've done it I don't recall trouble seeing adequately with my
Busch & Muller Cyo headlights.

BTW, I do have one friend who completed Paris-Brest-Paris a couple
times, over ten years ago. (He's one of the guys who finished my double
century with me.) PBP is hilly riding in dark and remote Brittany, with
lots of night riding. His lighting equipment was very, very ordinary,
and nothing at all close to 1000 lumens.

However, I note a subtle shift in the topic of conversation. Upthread
you were claiming a nighttime road cyclist needs glaring lights to _be
seen_. Now you're switching to fast-riding cyclists needing 1000 lumens
to see where they're going.

I think you'll dance around any and all topics in your effort to "prove"
that riding a bike is very, very dangerous.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

My experiences riding off road in the dark is that once you get to a certain brighness of light with a good beam pattern (not flashlight-type narrow beam)that more lumens do nothing because due to trees, twists/turns on the trail, you can NOT see any further anyway. You have LONGER viewable distances on most roads than you do on most trails.

BTW, I wear eyeglasses and I now wear a pair of flip-up sunglass lenses on them at night when riding so that when a bicyclist or motor vehicle with blindingly bright lights approaches I can flip the lenses down to avoid being blinded.

Cheers

[John B.]

But when I lived in Indonesia it was said that a verse from the Quran
made you bullet proof, and with the recent influx of immigrants into
the U.S. perhaps a combination of a yarmulke, St. Christopher Medal
and a verse from the Quran.... and maybe a Buddhist amulet might keep
one safe.

Probably cheaper then all those multi kilowatt lights too.... never
need the batteries charged either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 07:46:10 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

And that is largely "your problem". You have a preconceived notion and
rather then research the question to see if you can discover the truth
of the matter you simply argue from a position of ignorance. Akin to
arguing that 1 + 1 is not 2... because you don't want it to be.

You put on super bright lights and the number of close calls has
substantially dropped. And you know this.

Can you document it? Say 10 close calls a day before the bright lights
and only one since you installed them? Or "you just know that it is
so".

I find it interesting that after reading all the blather here I did
make a test of it. First a week riding with no lights at all and then
a second week riding with, not one but two, bright lights on the
handle bars and two (count them), TWO of the brightest blinking red
lights I could buy on the rear.

My findings? There was no difference at all, None!

And note that I was making a deliberate test of the value of lighting,
writing notes in a little book, counting on my fingers, etc.

And I might add that this was riding in Bangkok city traffic which is
usually rated as the first, or second most, chaotic traffic in the
world.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/20/autos/traffic-rush-hour-cities/index.html
Notice that the only U.S. city mentioned is Los Angeles which is rated
14th out of 15.

I can only assume that you are unique. That all the danger in the
universe is collectively hanging over your head.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/22/Joe_Btfsplk_Excerpt.png/400px-Joe_Btfsplk_Excerpt.png


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Learn how to read in context.

[Joerg]

Yes, I know this.

> Can you document it? Say 10 close calls a day before the bright lights
> and only one since you installed them? Or "you just know that it is
> so".
>

I have no GoPro and also no nee to document. I know what I experienced
and that's good enough for me. If you don't believe me, fine.

> I find it interesting that after reading all the blather here I did
> make a test of it. First a week riding with no lights at all and then
> a second week riding with, not one but two, bright lights on the
> handle bars and two (count them), TWO of the brightest blinking red
> lights I could buy on the rear.
>
> My findings? There was no difference at all, None!
>

Thailand != USA

> And note that I was making a deliberate test of the value of lighting,
> writing notes in a little book, counting on my fingers, etc.
>
> And I might add that this was riding in Bangkok city traffic which is
> usually rated as the first, or second most, chaotic traffic in the
> world.
> http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/20/autos/traffic-rush-hour-cities/index.html
> Notice that the only U.S. city mentioned is Los Angeles which is rated
> 14th out of 15.
>

There are huge differences between countries. For example, in France it
was (is?) popular to drive around town at night with just the position
lights on, no low beam. Worked. Because drivers pay attention and are
use to this. Here in the US the attention of drivers has majorly changed
with the advent of smart phones. That's just how it is.

> I can only assume that you are unique. That all the danger in the
> universe is collectively hanging over your head.

No, I am simply using common sense. Better light = seen better. Every
traffic safety expert. Some self-proclaimed ones, however, ...

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 13:05, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 11:34:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it
>>>> gets. On winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too
>>>> late is highest.
>>>
>>> Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at
>>> night, then observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you
>>> drove your car?
>>>
>>> I've done things like that many times, with my family, with
>>> friends, with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten
>>> spontaneous compliments from motorists.
>>>
>>> All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need
>>> super-bright lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly
>>> visible.
>>>
>>
>> During the day he does. As a motorist I am always thankful for
>> oncoming cyclists to have bright lights. I see them so early that I
>> can plan on it, move AFRAP with my car, giving oncoming cars lots
>> of space and their drivers, in consequence, give the cyclist lots
>> of space.
>
> Really? Are you legally blind? Eight out of ten times I will see a
> fluorescent jersey before I see a DRL.

Can you visit clients in your fluorescent jersey? Commuter cyclists out
here where khakis and stuff. Same when I visit a client, then I wear
clean and fairly new black jeans and a decent shirt.

For some people a bicycle is more than just a rolling gym.


> ... And as a rider, IME, there is

> a low correlation between being seen and safe passes. I get close
> passes with or without my very bright L&M VIS 180 rear light.

My experience is different. With bright lights I only get deliberate
close passes, usually when a driver is p....d because I took the lane
for too long and such.

>>
>>> The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly.
>>> It's spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
>>>
>>
>> Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph
>> on singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it
>> those 1000 lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see
>> stuff. For slowpokes that is, of course, a different story.
>
> Depends on the road and the rider. I'm sure there are plenty of PBP
> riders with dynos doing 25mph in the dark.

In France you normally do not have lots of debris from construction
worker pickup trucks lying in the way. I have lived in Northern Europe
and cycled there, a lot.


> ... But sure, the faster you

> go, the more light you need -- particularly if the road is more like
> a trail. But for the majority of commuters, super-bright lights are
> not needed for riding at night. Super-bright DRLs are totally
> unnecessary IMO. On dreary days I'll run a blinky, but in bright
> sunshine -- no.
>

Well, I always do. Hence I always make sure the Li-Ion batteries of the
bike are adequately charged.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-16 17:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/16/2017 2:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
>>>> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.
>>>
>>> Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
>>> observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?
>>>
>>> I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
>>> with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
>>> compliments from motorists.
>>>
>>> All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need super-bright
>>> lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.
>>>
>>> The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
>>> spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
>>>
>>
>> Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph on
>> singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it those 1000
>> lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see stuff. For
>> slowpokes that is, of course, a different story.
>
> At night, I don't often hit 25 mph.

I do every time I return from a church meeting. Nasty thoroughfare sans
bike lane and I want to leave that behind me fast. So I step on it. A
friend of mine travels at that speed. I can't do that anymore, only for
a few minutes at a time. Embarrassingly I am a few years younger than he
is but after 20mins at 25mph my tongue hangs on the handlebar.


> ... I don't know many cyclists who do.

> But when I've done it I don't recall trouble seeing adequately with my
> Busch & Muller Cyo headlights.
>

Here, you have to see debris that fell from construction trucks and
tossed glass bottles well ahead of time. Because there is no chance to
evade those if you are just being passed by a bus.

> BTW, I do have one friend who completed Paris-Brest-Paris a couple
> times, over ten years ago. (He's one of the guys who finished my double
> century with me.) PBP is hilly riding in dark and remote Brittany, with
> lots of night riding. His lighting equipment was very, very ordinary,
> and nothing at all close to 1000 lumens.
>
> However, I note a subtle shift in the topic of conversation. Upthread
> you were claiming a nighttime road cyclist needs glaring lights to _be
> seen_. Now you're switching to fast-riding cyclists needing 1000 lumens
> to see where they're going.
>
> I think you'll dance around any and all topics in your effort to "prove"
> that riding a bike is very, very dangerous.
>

No, it's both. My lights serve both purposes. At night they make my bike
appear like a small motorcycle and that has reduced the number of cases
where someone pulled out of a parking lot in front of me.

[John B.]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 07:27:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

A divine revelation! On the Road to Damascus, one assumes?

>
>
>> Can you document it? Say 10 close calls a day before the bright lights
>> and only one since you installed them? Or "you just know that it is
>> so".
>>
>
>I have no GoPro and also no nee to document. I know what I experienced
>and that's good enough for me. If you don't believe me, fine.

I see. YOU KNOW! With no evidence what so ever you just KNOW!

What is next? "The Second Coming will be next Wednesday at 12:30"?

>
>> I find it interesting that after reading all the blather here I did
>> make a test of it. First a week riding with no lights at all and then
>> a second week riding with, not one but two, bright lights on the
>> handle bars and two (count them), TWO of the brightest blinking red
>> lights I could buy on the rear.
>>
>> My findings? There was no difference at all, None!
>>
>
>Thailand != USA

Ah! You mean that in the U.S. all those timid folks in autos are
terrified of bright lights and run away when they see one while in
Thailand those primitive folks aren't afraid at all?

>
>
>> And note that I was making a deliberate test of the value of lighting,
>> writing notes in a little book, counting on my fingers, etc.
>>
>> And I might add that this was riding in Bangkok city traffic which is
>> usually rated as the first, or second most, chaotic traffic in the
>> world.
>> http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/20/autos/traffic-rush-hour-cities/index.html
>> Notice that the only U.S. city mentioned is Los Angeles which is rated
>> 14th out of 15.
>>
>
>There are huge differences between countries. For example, in France it
>was (is?) popular to drive around town at night with just the position
>lights on, no low beam. Worked. Because drivers pay attention and are
>use to this. Here in the US the attention of drivers has majorly changed
>with the advent of smart phones. That's just how it is.
>
>
>> I can only assume that you are unique. That all the danger in the
>> universe is collectively hanging over your head.
>
>
>No, I am simply using common sense. Better light = seen better. Every
>traffic safety expert. Some self-proclaimed ones, however, ...

I seem to remember something you wrote that implied that the faster
one rode the safer one was, but I think Frank contested that thesis.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/17/2017 10:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-16 17:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/16/2017 2:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-16 09:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/16/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
>>>>> winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever bothered to get a friend to ride your bike at night, then
>>>> observe your bike's lights and reflectors as you drove your car?
>>>>
>>>> I've done things like that many times, with my family, with friends,
>>>> with bike club members. And as mentioned, I've gotten spontaneous
>>>> compliments from motorists.
>>>>
>>>> All of this testing has showed that a cyclist does NOT need
>>>> super-bright
>>>> lights or high tech equipment to be perfectly visible.
>>>>
>>>> The modern paranoia calling for super-bright lights is silly. It's
>>>> spouted by people who haven't done simple tests.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nonsense. I did tests. If you want to be able to pull up to 15mph on
>>> singletrack or 25mph on a road with occasional debris on it those 1000
>>> lumen lights are a safety feature. Because you see stuff. For
>>> slowpokes that is, of course, a different story.
>>
>> At night, I don't often hit 25 mph.

>> I don't know many cyclists who do.
>> But when I've done it I don't recall trouble seeing adequately with my
>> Busch & Muller Cyo headlights.
>>
>
> Here, you have to see debris that fell from construction trucks and
> tossed glass bottles well ahead of time. Because there is no chance to
> evade those if you are just being passed by a bus.

Yes, we know. Where you ride is terribly, terribly dangerous.
Construction debris all over the roads, glass bottle everywhere! And
unlike everywhere else, cars in your area don't displace that stuff to
the side.

Or perhaps you're still riding in the gutter, where all that stuff
eventually ends up? If you could persuade yourself to at least ride in
the area of the cars' right tire track, perhaps you'd find that the
debris has been moved out of your way.

--
- Frank Krygowski