Front bike rack on buses, heavy bikes

[Joerg]

Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:

http://www.sacbike.dreamhosters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sacramento_Regional_Transit_Bus_No_2395.jpg

Unfortunately the top-holding bar goes over the front wheel where the
emergency dynamo is on my road bike instead of over the seat. Ok, I can
remove that dynamo. However, both my road bike and my MTB are
"rear-heavy" with panniers that contain lots of water, tools and such.
Are they still safe in those racks?

The other question is, El Dorado Transit and others state to "remove
panniers and other baggage to allow safe operation of the bus". My
panniers look detachable but they are not, there is a lot of stuff
underneath that bolts and cinches them in place.

What's your experience?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Ned Mantei]

The Swiss way is to have hooks from which you hang the bike by the front
wheel. This is common on both buses and on trains. And that means
removing panniers. The exceptions would be some local trains, where
bikes are just leaned against a padded area that is meant mainly for
people standing during rush hour, and a few trains in which the hooks
are only a bit above waist height.

All in all I'm a big fan of being able to travel with my bike by train.
An hour or two brings me to the mountains, and I don't have to end my
ride where it started. A yearly bike pass costs about $220.

Ned

[Sir Ridesalot]

You're most lkely SOL with nom-removable panniers. I don't know of any bus transit that allows panniers to be left on the bicycle. Another thing to consider (if they did allow the loaded panniers to stay on the bike)is the potential for damage to your wheels as the bike moves sideways with those heavily loaded panniers whilst the bicycle wheels move side to side a bit when the bus isin motion. YMMV and probably does.

BTW, since some of the bus routes hereabouts goes onto a 60mph highway, I use an Arno strap to help secure the bike to the bus front rack. I know that even a hard bump won't cause the bike to leave the rack if the front wheel hook on the bus rack were to fail.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-17 08:08, Ned Mantei wrote:
> On 17-09-17 16:54, Joerg wrote:
>> Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
>> in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
>> back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:
>>
>> http://www.sacbike.dreamhosters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sacramento_Regional_Transit_Bus_No_2395.jpg
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately the top-holding bar goes over the front wheel where the
>> emergency dynamo is on my road bike instead of over the seat. Ok, I
>> can remove that dynamo. However, both my road bike and my MTB are
>> "rear-heavy" with panniers that contain lots of water, tools and such.
>> Are they still safe in those racks?
>>
>> The other question is, El Dorado Transit and others state to "remove
>> panniers and other baggage to allow safe operation of the bus". My
>> panniers look detachable but they are not, there is a lot of stuff
>> underneath that bolts and cinches them in place.
>>
>> What's your experience?
>>
>
> The Swiss way is to have hooks from which you hang the bike by the front
> wheel. This is common on both buses and on trains. And that means

> removing panniers. ...


That would be a no-go for me so I'd have to use my car like I do now.
Especially on an MTB you can't have panniers that are just slung over
the rack. Everything must be bolted and cinched in place or it goes
flying on the trail.

The exceptions would be some local trains, where
> bikes are just leaned against a padded area that is meant mainly for
> people standing during rush hour, and a few trains in which the hooks
> are only a bit above waist height.
>
> All in all I'm a big fan of being able to travel with my bike by train.
> An hour or two brings me to the mountains, and I don't have to end my
> ride where it started. A yearly bike pass costs about $220.
>

We don't have deals like that here but public buses have come a long way
in the last five years for our county. Light rail allows bikes inside so
no problem. Buses unfortunately not. The other challenge is that you
can't count on availability for the way back. If both racks are occupied
you are screwed, have to pedal back and be late. So I'd only use it for
the way out even though that's downhill.

[Joerg]

Thanks. That means I'll have to keep using my car :-(

One of those trips would be next week. There is a nice "race track
style" bike path along a canal where you can really put the coals on and
the last bus stop is only a few miles from where it starts.

> BTW, since some of the bus routes hereabouts goes onto a 60mph
> highway, I use an Arno strap to help secure the bike to the bus front
> rack. I know that even a hard bump won't cause the bike to leave the
> rack if the front wheel hook on the bus rack were to fail.
>

Good idea. I've got some of those but if they don't allow panniers I
can't use the bus. The bus does take a route along a 65mph highway.

I could call them about my fixed panniers but in the end this is all at
the discretion of the driver. If he or she says no it's no and then I'd
get stuck.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The problem with the train is that they only accept boxed bikes in the luggage car. Though I'm sure I remember just tying my bike against the wall none of my touring friends seem to remember that.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 12:34:56 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> That would be a no-go for me so I'd have to use my car like I do now.
> Especially on an MTB you can't have panniers that are just slung over
> the rack. Everything must be bolted and cinched in place or it goes
> flying on the trail.

Snipped

That's funny. I use my MTB to tour on really rough dirt roads and trails in Northern Ontario and I've NEVER had to bolt my panniers to the bike rack to keep the panniers from bouncing off. I do use an Arno strap to secure them though. I like to be able to remove my panniers QUICKLY if setting up camp in the rain.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

DESIGN....WITH CARDBOARD TEMPLATE...an adapter plate between permanent hooking and bag hooking that is temporary....plate can be cut 1 piece tehn cut out for lightness

temp bag hookups made longer vertically wider hookup horizontally prob equal performance of the OEM design as OEM maybe cost derived.

No, placing your defining luggage on bus front is mostly an imbecilic idea

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.bayrailalliance.org/caltrain_bike_tips

https://www.bing.com/search?q=cal%20train%20bicycle%20routes&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=cal%20train%20bicycle%20routes&sc=0-24&sk=&cvid=2A5BACB6FCA449E98014FC59B826972F

https://www.bing.com/search?q=cal%20train%20to%20california%20bicycle%20routes&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=cal%20train%20to%20california%20bicycle%20routes&sc=0-38&sk=&cvid=3187945670D0400DAEA9A3E0331A2D4C

[avag...@gmail.com]

Plate is .25 quality plywood..
Seasoned dry n carefully painted with Rustoleum esp end grain

[AMuzi]

On 9/17/2017 7:09 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Plate is .25 quality plywood..
> Seasoned dry n carefully painted with Rustoleum esp end grain
>

what, no tuba four?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

Ah but you don't ride in California. It is very different in
California what with the autos swerving off the road when they see a
bicycle with bright lights. Well, except for the poor country folks in
their pickups who may even attack a bicycle.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/17/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
> in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
> back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:
>
> http://www.sacbike.dreamhosters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sacramento_Regional_Transit_Bus_No_2395.jpg
>
>
> Unfortunately the top-holding bar goes over the front wheel where the
> emergency dynamo is on my road bike instead of over the seat. Ok, I can
> remove that dynamo. However, both my road bike and my MTB are
> "rear-heavy" with panniers that contain lots of water, tools and such.
> Are they still safe in those racks?

I'm sure that for you, they would not be safe.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:04:41 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ah but you don't ride in California. It is very different in
>California what with the autos swerving off the road when they see a
>bicycle with bright lights. Well, except for the poor country folks in
>their pickups who may even attack a bicycle.

Pickup trucks prefer to attack the bus, not the bicycle:
<http://www.theslowlane.org/2011/04/accident-involving-bike-rack-on-bus.html>
Notice how the crumpled bicycle rack cushioned the impact thus saving
the bus and bicycle from damage.

If you need to use tools to remove the bicycle, I suggest you do
something to make the bicycle fast and easy to remove:
<https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man-killed-trying-to-get-bike-off-detroit-city-bus>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

Ply used here was assorted gift scrap ply...leaving what you can find as a local deal. Or order ... Uh Search AB .25 SANDED PLYWOOD.



HD in Naples has a rack, where I live 30 miles north in the slums, does not. Hobbyists.

I used a piece feeling like it was experimental aircraft material.

Do you live near the Klipsch factory ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

ah the internet

https://goo.gl/Ftt3bo


I spoke with a recent visitor to the experimental gathering who reported every homebuilt ever made was there n ground crawling with the curious.

I missed it by a few days.

I weep

AVAST THE JIB !

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 08:26:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>You're most lkely SOL with nom-removable panniers. I don't
>know of any bus transit that allows panniers to be left
>on the bicycle.

Sacramento Regional Transit makes no specific mention of removing
panniers but does mention "bags".
<https://www.sacrt.com/biking.stm>
"Remove water bottles, bags, pumps and other loose items
that could fall off while the bus is in motion."

Santa Cruz METRO adds a few more items:
<https://www.scmtd.com/en/riders-guide/bikes-and-buses>
"Before the bus arrives, get your bike ready by removing
any oversized equipment, or loose items not permanently
attached, that might impair the Operator’s vision or
fall off the bike."
I guess(tm) that panniers might be considered "oversized equipment".

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 09:56:43 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>The problem with the train is that they only accept boxed bikes
>in the luggage car. Though I'm sure I remember just tying my
>bike against the wall none of my touring friends seem to
>remember that.

Methinks bicycle boxes on trains are a thing of the past and makes
little sense when most of the riders are commuters:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=caltrain+bicycle&tbm=isch>

If it's on Caltrain, they allow bicycles on the train:
<http://www.bayrailalliance.org/caltrain_bike_tips>
No mention of bicycle boxes.

<http://www.caltrain.com/riderinfo/Bicycles/Bicycle_FAQs.html>
"Caltrain operates two types of train cars: Gallery (enter
through one door) and Bombardier (enter through two doors).
The gallery train set can accomodate 80 bikes (40 in each
of two bike cars), while the Bombardier train set can
handle 72 bikes (24 in each of three bike cars)."
No mention of bicycle boxes.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Buy 2 seats

[avag...@gmail.com]

Eg

5 mm 1/4" X 12" X 12" Premium Baltic Birch Plywood – B/BB Grade - 8 Flat Sheets By Woodpeckers

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NGTAWVV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_0xZVzbSXDM15N

Not aircraft ...brief try at aircraft is air ply is so expensive by the sheet that the seller cuts n sells for the builder...CRC plywood ?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>Buy 2 seats

Ford stole my idea:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0UWLPhCco>
<https://www.google.com/patents/US9334007>
Sniff...

Soon, everyone will be riding inflatable bicycles.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Hyperlinks

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininventor:%22Lauri+Mikael+Ohra-aho%22

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://goo.gl/WJAGrb

ford ...

[Sir Ridesalot]

Well, Joerg will/would say that his panniers ARE permanently attached to his bicycle. However due to the fact that most bicycle wheels are held loosely in the bus front rack, his LOADED panniers would put alot of sideways forces on the bicycle wheels when the bus is in motion.

Then again, when his wheels get bent he'll have something else to rant about.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

SR...freeze...your impulsive pre-emption is unwelcome....no reason to put words in another mouth.

[Joerg]

The trails I use make stuff in the panniers rotate as if it was a
washing machine. My panniers can tolerate rain and I've ridden through
rain for hours on end. I like bikes to have real trunks and permanent
ones so I can just throw everything I need for the trip in there and go.
Like with the car. If your panniers leak you could consider a plastic
sheet snippet for camping, weighs nothing and folds down to almost nothing.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-17 10:59, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> DESIGN....WITH CARDBOARD TEMPLATE...an adapter plate between
> permanent hooking and bag hooking that is temporary....plate can be
> cut 1 piece tehn cut out for lightness
>
> temp bag hookups made longer vertically wider hookup horizontally
> prob equal performance of the OEM design as OEM maybe cost derived.
>

On the MTB there isn't much space below the panniers until something
interferes. Important stuff such as a brake caliper. This is because the
rear has 4" suspension travel.

Sure, I could devices some sort of disconnect behind the panniers and
reach in. However, having to disassemble part of the bike before being
able to ride public transit isn't my idea of fun. Especially since the
top part on the MTB pannier assy is also screwed down (hard) with a
sturdy Perspex plate. Then I'd rather keep using my own vehicle where I
don't have to do this.

> No, placing your defining luggage on bus front is mostly an imbecilic
> idea
>

The panniers on both bikes are Nashbar Daytrekker, somewhat modified for
bolt-down.

http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10053_10052_563350_-1___

They are small and only present about 1sqft of wind impact surface. Yes,
on the road bike that could still be a concern because of the
not-so-great method they offer to secure a bike via front-wheel only. On
the MTB it would not be a problem. I have crashed with heavily loaded
panniers and the thing gets hammered along rocky trails and such. After
some serious mods in back of the bike it all behaves like a dirt bike
with side trunks. The frame is so rigid that the rear won't have a
chance to push sideways too much so there I wouldn't be concerned about
pretzeling the rim (but that only goes for the MTB).

[sms]

On 9/17/2017 9:34 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> We don't have deals like that here but public buses have come a long way
> in the last five years for our county. Light rail allows bikes inside so
> no problem. Buses unfortunately not. The other challenge is that you
> can't count on availability for the way back. If both racks are occupied
> you are screwed, have to pedal back and be late. So I'd only use it for
> the way out even though that's downhill.

Check your transit agency's policies. For ours: "When the racks are
filled, up to two bicycles will be allowed inside the bus subject to the
driver's discretion when passenger loads are light." And passenger loads
on VTA are almost always light. But for SACRT they say: "Bikes are not
allowed inside RT buses unless it is the last bus on the route that day,
and the bike carrier is full."

Caltrain is the problem. Even though all trains can hold either 72 or 80
bicycles, cyclists still get bumped, especially on the horribly misnamed
"Baby Bullet," limited stop train which fills most of the way at the
origin in San Jose or San Francisco. I get on in Sunnyvale, and I began
taking a folding bicycle to ensure access.

[sms]

On 9/17/2017 7:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
> in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
> back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:
>
> http://www.sacbike.dreamhosters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sacramento_Regional_Transit_Bus_No_2395.jpg
>
>
> Unfortunately the top-holding bar goes over the front wheel where the
> emergency dynamo is on my road bike instead of over the seat. Ok, I can
> remove that dynamo. However, both my road bike and my MTB are
> "rear-heavy" with panniers that contain lots of water, tools and such.
> Are they still safe in those racks?
>

> The other question is, El Dorado Transit and others state to "remove
> panniers and other baggage to allow safe operation of the bus". My
> panniers look detachable but they are not, there is a lot of stuff
> underneath that bolts and cinches them in place.

While panniers that attach with stretch cord or springs will routinely
bounce off on rough roads or trails, there are panniers that don't have
that problem. I use the defunct Kangaroo Baggs which have never fallen
off on rough terrain. They're more of a pain to put on and take off but
not terribly difficult.

Arkel has a camlock system that is secure, and they sell a retrofit kit
for other panniers, see
<https://www.arkel-od.com/en/cam-lock-hook-kit-pair.html>.

But if you want panniers that thieves can't easily steal, bolt-on is a
good idea I guess.

[Joerg]

El Dorado Transit won't allow bicycles in the bus and there is only a
front rack for two. They usually don't have many passengers but I have
seen them with just a few riders in there and both bike slots occupied.
Looked like homeless bikes, I think they can ride for free.

Beats me why those racks have to be in front. Better:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZakEtznL8TE/SkXP5K0RP2I/AAAAAAAADT8/xv1OkbMD9ZI/s400/IMG_5913.jpg

[Joerg]

That only works if the cam has good spring action and holds with a lot
of force. Else it'll jump and rattle, and eventually fail. A whole lot
of force. The other problem is the bungee which will allow a loaded
pannier to flop and bang sideways during rough rides. On my MTB 80-90%
of miles are rough.

My panniers have four hooks and I slid in a thick Perspex plate above.
It is nicely rounded so won't chafe. Has two big M6 bolts to a home-made
rack "undercarriage". That way it cannot jump or rattle up an down. The
hooks have thick bicycle tubing over them for nice cushioning. The
bungees are not used but the panniers are solidly affixed to the
vertical struts of the racks.

On the MTB it would take tools and half an hour to assemble and
re-assemble. Not gonna happen, then I keep using my car instead of
changing to public transit.

> But if you want panniers that thieves can't easily steal, bolt-on is a
> good idea I guess.

They can still easily open them or slit them with a knife. This is why I
never leave the bike unattended. If a store doesn't allow me to carry
the bike inside I will shop elsewhere. This is one reason why I only buy
online at Walmart, not in stores. And only when they free-ship to the
house, no ship-to-store because they made me park the bike outside even
there.

On the road bike the battery for lights and stuff rides in the right
pannier so I'd also have to disconnect that. I was also thinking about
carrying a large drinking water container in the left pannier when I
find one with a fitting shape, with the hose tied to the top tube. That
way I wouldn't have to stop for transfers into the bottle.

[jbeattie]

Thieves would cut the lock and take the whole bike, assuming they were in the market for a bike appropriate to the Mad Max post-apocalypse world of Cameron Park -- something with toasted pivots, swing-arms and shocks -- destroyed by the relentless pounding and mountain lion pounces. My commute bike is much more simple and durable: https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/PuIFbyq104HET_mw86Iv6lNA6_Q=/fit-in/970x0/2015/01/28/9aa9956c-5b68-4676-af61-d5472d277f6c/turbo-kid-skeletron.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:19:12 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>But if you want panniers that thieves can't easily steal, bolt-on is a
>good idea I guess.

I had a similar problem. When I went on service calls on my bicycle,
I was forced to lock the bicycle to something, remove everything that
can be easily removed, and drag everything into my customers office to
prevent theft. While shopping for suitable panniers, I noticed that
they look very much like laptop bags. I had a fair collection of
those, so instead of panniers, I tried various laptop bags. I had to
sew D rings in various places and add cardboard and wire stiffeners.
In general, they work just fine. I usually take a laptop or
Chromebook with me, which I wrap in bubble pack for extra shock
resistance. Also tried brief cases, but they were too big, bulky and
heavy.

I have no idea how they will survive on a bus and I no longer do
service calls on my bicycle.

[sms]

Probably in the front for theft prevention. The corporate buses around
here all have them on the back, but they don't stop a lot in areas where
someone would run up and steal a bike,

[AMuzi]

Panniers with a bunji which fall off after a bump are so
last century. Since the first Kirtland positive-lock pannier
(c.1987?) almost all quality panniers have a locking feature
of some sort (Lone Peak, Jandd, Ortleib etc). You have to
get down to chinese crapinabox level to find lift-n-drop
panniers nowadays.

[avag...@gmail.com]

DIG HOLE COVER WITH STICKS

Canadins are inedible

once again we have a glith

the prosed goal is not whining abt design features and your idea of fun ..this is not fun this is discipline as in loading n unloading a sea kayak.

the goal is bus trip to a distant area n ride trail route a recommended by California's experts.

not whining abt design features that will not get you there

the IDEA IS TO GET THERE

like build boats invading England.

NRS has in remote Moscow morhed into kayak/raft/bike

we recommend a Bills Bag for short term protection of a large haul

you can get a weekend in there no prob.

https://www.outdoorplay.com/gear/backpacks/hiking-backpacks

[Joerg]

I assume buses nowadays all have rear-facing cameras. It would also be
prudent (and more safe) if the large latch bars would be blocked while
the bus is running it's route. Until a rider alerts the driver "Sir, I
am going to retrieve my bike at the next stop, it's the blue one". Then
a press of the button by the driver and that bike can be romeved but not
any of the others.

The only way a thief can succeed in such a scenario is with an ultrafast
kilowatt-rated angle grinder and something to power that beast.

[Joerg]

Look at the high-end Arkel mount above that Steven posted. That is not a
cheapo vendor but ... bungees.

The "modern" click-and-lock plastic mounts do not provide true clamping.
They lock but have some play and that rattles and wears. Anything that
moves on bikes used off-road a lot wears surprisingly fast. Yesterday I
noticed that my plastic (!) water bottle has managed to abrade a third
of the aluminum off of the inward bottle holder tip.

[ab.ch...@rogers.com]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 10:54:10 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
> in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
> back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:
>
> http://www.sacbike.dreamhosters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sacramento_Regional_Transit_Bus_No_2395.jpg
>
> Unfortunately the top-holding bar goes over the front wheel where the
> emergency dynamo is on my road bike instead of over the seat. Ok, I can
> remove that dynamo. However, both my road bike and my MTB are
> "rear-heavy" with panniers that contain lots of water, tools and such.
> Are they still safe in those racks?
>
> The other question is, El Dorado Transit and others state to "remove
> panniers and other baggage to allow safe operation of the bus". My
> panniers look detachable but they are not, there is a lot of stuff
> underneath that bolts and cinches them in place.
>

> What's your experience?

I use OC TRanspo's Rack and Roll occasionally. It works well for me, but our
bicycles are not complicated by panniers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGfz0II6_L8
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/18/2017 12:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> My panniers have four hooks and I slid in a thick Perspex plate above.
> It is nicely rounded so won't chafe. Has two big M6 bolts to a home-made
> rack "undercarriage". That way it cannot jump or rattle up an down. The
> hooks have thick bicycle tubing over them for nice cushioning. The
> bungees are not used but the panniers are solidly affixed to the
> vertical struts of the racks.
>
> On the MTB it would take tools and half an hour to assemble and
> re-assemble. Not gonna happen, then I keep using my car instead of
> changing to public transit.
>
>
>> But if you want panniers that thieves can't easily steal, bolt-on is a
>> good idea I guess.
>
>
> They can still easily open them or slit them with a knife. This is why I
> never leave the bike unattended. If a store doesn't allow me to carry
> the bike inside I will shop elsewhere. This is one reason why I only buy
> online at Walmart, not in stores. And only when they free-ship to the
> house, no ship-to-store because they made me park the bike outside even
> there.
>
> On the road bike the battery for lights and stuff rides in the right

> pannier so I'd also have to disconnect that. ...

Wow.

I've toured and/or traveled with up to four panniers plus handlbar bag,
in something like 12 countries so far. I shop almost daily using one
bike or another. I've done this for about 45 years now.

So far, my total losses from parked bikes totals three cyclometers -
once from my daughter's bike and my bike parked in front of a restaurant
in Ireland, and once from my bike parked at the local grocery store.
Without the Avocet sensor rings and mounts, they're useless, so I
suspect it was 12-year-old boys in both cases.

In our village, I no longer bother to even lock the bike. I just jam
something into the front brake lever to keep that brake applied.

In less familiar areas, I use a homemade cable that's 1/4" diameter,
with a tiny padlock. I do think carefully about where I park the bike,
though.

(Of course, my lights are permanently bolted on.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Doug Landau]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 7:54:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> Thinking about doing rides farther away without carting the bike there
> in my car. Or riding out farther and using a bus for some of the way
> back. Buses out here have racks for two bikes up front, like this:

Dude. Are you not married. Stop turning around and start calling your wife.

[Joerg]

You probably life in a secluded Amish village :-)

I've had a lot of stuff stolen, including a complete road bike which was
tied to a thick wrought iron fence with a massive chain and a
professioanal-grade ABUS pad lock. I have a hunch who it was but
couldn't prove it plus the bike was nowhere to be found.

The topper in the next street was a guy with a fairly old BMW
motorcycle. One morning he came down ... both Bing carburetors gone.
The guy who stole them must have been a BMW lover because he draped
something over the intakes so rain would not enter the cylinders.

> In less familiar areas, I use a homemade cable that's 1/4" diameter,
> with a tiny padlock. I do think carefully about where I park the bike,
> though.
>

At our larger stores there are often some shady folks milling about,
with nothing to do all day long. Leaving a nice bike or one with
enticing accessories unattended is calling for trouble. I just don't
want to have my tool set or other stuff pilfered.

> (Of course, my lights are permanently bolted on.)
>

That makes no difference to a serial thief. They will instantly know
whetehr the light is a ritzy-glitzy one or a $10 light and then decide.
No matter how it is mounted.

[Joerg]

Only from May to October? Are you guys all fair weather riders? :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

It's a suburban village with its own government and police force,
contiguous with surrounding suburbs and adjacent to this corner of the
state's biggest retail area. It's been rated the safest community within
at least 15 miles. It's crime stats are better than the local area, the
state on average, or the U.S. on average. And I'm friendly with the
police chief and several of the cops. I like to think that if my bike
were stolen, they'd be motivated to get it back for me.

> I've had a lot of stuff stolen, including a complete road bike which was
> tied to a thick wrought iron fence with a massive chain and a
> professioanal-grade ABUS pad lock. I have a hunch who it was but
> couldn't prove it plus the bike was nowhere to be found.

It may help that my bikes are probably viewed as quirky and unfashionable.

> The topper in the next street was a guy with a fairly old BMW
> motorcycle. One morning he came down ...  both Bing carburetors gone.
> The guy who stole them must have been a BMW lover because he draped
> something over the intakes so rain would not enter the cylinders.

I've got an old BMW (1972 R75/5) and I'd hate to see it harmed. But
again, the police chief rides a Harley, and he chats with me about my
BMW from time to time.

>> In less familiar areas, I use a homemade cable that's 1/4" diameter,
>> with a tiny padlock. I do think carefully about where I park the bike,
>> though.
>>
>
> At our larger stores there are often some shady folks milling about,
> with nothing to do all day long. Leaving a nice bike or one with
> enticing accessories unattended is calling for trouble. I just don't
> want to have my tool set or other stuff pilfered.

I feel lucky to live where I do. There are no shady folks milling about
the places I shop.

In Paris a few years ago, I had to do some customs paperwork at a
department store we'd visited. My wife bought some clothes and we could
avoid some taxes by filling out forms, but they needed to see my
passport. Anyway, I rode my bike there, and planned to lock it to a
stout streetside railing, but I'd forgotten the key to the cable lock.
And there were a bunch of shady looking young guys lounging nearby.

I rode off looking for a hidden parking place, and came across a few
police monitoring something near the store's underground parking and/or
shipping area. I explained my predicament, and they cheerfully let me
park it in the underground area, where they said they'd keep an eye on
it. That was with the Bike Friday, and they were pleasantly interested
in the bike as well.

>> (Of course, my lights are permanently bolted on.)
>>
>
> That makes no difference to a serial thief. They will instantly know
> whetehr the light is a ritzy-glitzy one or a $10 light and then decide.
> No matter how it is mounted.

Around here, nobody knows what a Busch & Muller Cyo is worth.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 16:11:25 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

By Gorry! I'm sure glad I left California where (apparently) all the
thieves live and moved to Asia where (apparently) people are
honest.... or at least no one has stolen my bicycle or any bits
attached to it.

It must be Hell to live in such a lawless place.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 08:23:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>It must be Hell to live in such a lawless place.

Lawless? The US probably has more laws than any other country:
<https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/06/how-many-federal-laws-are-there-again-n2009184>
Add to that are various state laws, codes, regulations, executive
orders, torts, case law, etc. Yep, we're really quite lawful, or is
that full of laws?

[John B.]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 19:14:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 08:23:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>It must be Hell to live in such a lawless place.
>
>Lawless? The US probably has more laws than any other country:
><https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/06/how-many-federal-laws-are-there-again-n2009184>
>Add to that are various state laws, codes, regulations, executive
>orders, torts, case law, etc. Yep, we're really quite lawful, or is
>that full of laws?

lawless ~ adj
1. without law or control
2. lax in enforcing laws
3. disobedient to or defiant of law

I am given to understand, from reading this site, that it is unsafe to
leave one's bike outside a store, that rednecks in pickup trucks daily
assault bicycles and that without a very powerful flashing light no
one will see you and you will likely die in a crash.

I believe that "unlawful", at least from all I read here, is the
proper term. (see 1,2,3 above).
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 9/18/2017 9:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 08:23:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It must be Hell to live in such a lawless place.
>
> Lawless? The US probably has more laws than any other country:
> <https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/06/how-many-federal-laws-are-there-again-n2009184>
> Add to that are various state laws, codes, regulations, executive
> orders, torts, case law, etc. Yep, we're really quite lawful, or is
> that full of laws?
>

"The Roman Republic had 12 laws and every schoolboy knew
them. At the end of the Empire there were thousands of laws
and no one knew them."

More for the curious reader:
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invid=13885888947

[jbeattie]

We hate laws until someone builds a rendering plant next door -- or passes too closely or gets in our space. We are a fundamentally schizophrenic society. Everyone is a rugged individual, constrained by the oppressive laws -- until someone bigger, stronger and more wealthy decides to take all the water from the river or charge us $150 a week for cable TV or cellphone service. Then there aren't enough laws. With that said, I hope The Donald does trim the tax code, but I'm certain that as one solidly in the dwindling middle-class, I'd get slaughtered. I didn't vote for him, but it looks like all of his tax proposals would totally sodomize his base.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-18 18:23, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 16:11:25 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-18 13:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>> In less familiar areas, I use a homemade cable that's 1/4" diameter,
>>> with a tiny padlock. I do think carefully about where I park the bike,
>>> though.
>>>
>>
>> At our larger stores there are often some shady folks milling about,
>> with nothing to do all day long. Leaving a nice bike or one with
>> enticing accessories unattended is calling for trouble. I just don't
>> want to have my tool set or other stuff pilfered.
>>
>>
>>> (Of course, my lights are permanently bolted on.)
>>>
>>
>> That makes no difference to a serial thief. They will instantly know
>> whetehr the light is a ritzy-glitzy one or a $10 light and then decide.
>> No matter how it is mounted.
>
> By Gorry! I'm sure glad I left California where (apparently) all the
> thieves live and moved to Asia where (apparently) people are
> honest.... or at least no one has stolen my bicycle or any bits
> attached to it.
>

It's worse in the cities around here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dz0Za5-wOM

> It must be Hell to live in such a lawless place.

Not lawless but police often won't do a thing about property crime. We
pay a ton of taxes but too much goes towards fat pensions and we get
little in return for it.

[sms]

On 9/19/2017 7:04 AM, jbeattie wrote:

> We hate laws until someone builds a rendering plant next door -- or passes too closely or gets in our space. We are a fundamentally schizophrenic society. Everyone is a rugged individual, constrained by the oppressive laws -- until someone bigger, stronger and more wealthy decides to take all the water from the river or charge us $150 a week for cable TV or cellphone service. Then there aren't enough laws. With that said, I hope The Donald does trim the tax code, but I'm certain that as one solidly in the dwindling middle-class, I'd get slaughtered. I didn't vote for him, but it looks like all of his tax proposals would totally sodomize his base.

They don't care. They voted against their own self-interests for a reason.

[AMuzi]

exactly:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sriracha-lawsuit-dropped-20140529-story.html

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 07:04:51 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

>I hope The Donald does trim the tax code, but I'm certain that as one
>solidly in the dwindling middle-class, I'd get slaughtered. I didn't
>vote for him, but it looks like all of his tax proposals would totally
>sodomize his base.
>-- Jay Beattie.

It wouldn't be terribly difficult. Much of the bloat that has been
added in the last 40 years or so are private bills that apply to only
one individual or corporation:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_bill>
They also tend to be a one time tax deduction (or tax avoidance) that
no longer applies. Finding and identifying these and deleting them
would be fairly easy as they all seem to follow the same template as
shown in the above Wikipedia article:
"...such tax of the type shall not be imposed on any
corporation chartered in the State of Winnemac after
January 12, 1967 and on or before January 14, 1967
for an intrastate transaction involving a stock transfer
of not less than $12 million nor more than $20 million
which occurred after April 2, 2001 and on or before
April 5, 2012."
The problem is that the same people that have the influence and money
to obtain private bills, are also those that sponsor political
candidates.

<http://economistsoutlook.blogs.realtor.org/files/2013/07/071613a.png>
<http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/poetry/irs1.htm>

[sms]

On 9/19/2017 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Not lawless but police often won't do a thing about property crime. We
> pay a ton of taxes but too much goes towards fat pensions and we get
> little in return for it.

Last Saturday my daughter called me and was asking whether car insurance
covers broken windows. Well it wasn't her car, it was her clueless
roommate who, despite being told not to leave ANYTHING in her car, went
ahead and left stuff in her car. They stole her bicycle and her clothes
but for some reason left her Macbook. Thieves will break a window to get
two quarters, you leave NOTHING in your car around here. My former
colleague had her old car broken into and they stole the owner's manual.
My daughter said "well she thought because the house is in a good
neighborhood it would be safe." But of course the thieves don't target
bad neighborhoods where there is nothing to steal, of course they target
"good neighborhoods."

The police in big cities are so busy with homicides and other felonies
that they are obviously not going to investigate the theft of a bicycle
light or other part or accessory of a bicycle. We probably don't want to
pay more taxes to hire more police and build more prisons, at $75K per
year per inmate (not including construction costs), to lock up thieves
that steal a bicycle bell, while letting white-collar criminals off
scot-free.

My neighbor was a cop for 25 years. He said that getting police to do
anything about property crime is very difficult. If your car is stolen,
and you have a LojackⓇ, even getting the police to go to where the car
is is damn near impossible. That may be why the insurance discount is
minuscule. I installed a "poor man's LojackⓇ" in my daughter's new car.
It can be tracked by her (or me), and it was only $100, and has no
monthly fees. But with an insurance discount of only $7 every six
months, it would take 8 years to break even.

Don't insult cops because they get a good pension. It's very hard to
recruit cops, and the pension is the big attraction because the salaries
are not great, and it's a risky profession. San Jose tried cutting their
police pensions and it resulted in a huge exodus of cops to other
cities, even though San Jose had higher police salaries. Bad move since
the acquisition and training costs of new cops is high.

[sms]

On 9/19/2017 8:20 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 07:04:51 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
> <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope The Donald does trim the tax code, but I'm certain that as one
>> solidly in the dwindling middle-class, I'd get slaughtered. I didn't
>> vote for him, but it looks like all of his tax proposals would totally
>> sodomize his base.
>> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> It wouldn't be terribly difficult.

<snip>

The Republicans' proposal to eliminate the deductions for state and
local income taxes, mortgage interest, and property taxes, would be very
bad for the middle class. Any small cut in federal income tax would be
more than offset by a higher taxable income. As usual with Republican
proposals, the middle class will end up financing tax cuts for the upper
class.

<http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/09/18/republican-tax-cut-eliminate-mortgage-deduction/>

[sms]

On 9/19/2017 7:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> exactly:
> http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sriracha-lawsuit-dropped-20140529-story.html

The most important issue right now is whether or not "footlong" means
12", or if it's just a marketing phrase that has no actual relation to
the length of a sandwich. Normally I'd go with the latter, since Subway
never claimed that their "footlong" was 12" long. But they do advertise
6 inch subs, which should be 6 inches long, yet they are made with half
of a footlong bun which is not 12" long.

Jay needs to weigh in on this. Also the photos of the sandwiches don't
look anything like what you end up getting.

This is important to me because I eat at Subway once each year, and it
will be tomorrow at Interbike. The only reasonably priced food near the
show is from Subway and McDonald's, across Las Vegas Boulevard.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-19 08:27, sms wrote:
> On 9/19/2017 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Not lawless but police often won't do a thing about property crime. We
>> pay a ton of taxes but too much goes towards fat pensions and we get
>> little in return for it.
>
> Last Saturday my daughter called me and was asking whether car insurance
> covers broken windows. Well it wasn't her car, it was her clueless
> roommate who, despite being told not to leave ANYTHING in her car, went
> ahead and left stuff in her car. They stole her bicycle and her clothes
> but for some reason left her Macbook. Thieves will break a window to get
> two quarters, you leave NOTHING in your car around here. My former
> colleague had her old car broken into and they stole the owner's manual.
> My daughter said "well she thought because the house is in a good
> neighborhood it would be safe." But of course the thieves don't target
> bad neighborhoods where there is nothing to steal, of course they target
> "good neighborhoods."
>

That's what our parents taught is before we even went to school. Leave
nothing in plain sight in the car, absolutely nothing.

> The police in big cities are so busy with homicides and other felonies
> that they are obviously not going to investigate the theft of a bicycle
> light or other part or accessory of a bicycle. We probably don't want to
> pay more taxes to hire more police and build more prisons, at $75K per
> year per inmate (not including construction costs), to lock up thieves
> that steal a bicycle bell, while letting white-collar criminals off
> scot-free.
>

Unfortunately thieves know that and act accordingly :-(

> My neighbor was a cop for 25 years. He said that getting police to do
> anything about property crime is very difficult. If your car is stolen,
> and you have a LojackⓇ, even getting the police to go to where the car
> is is damn near impossible. That may be why the insurance discount is
> minuscule. I installed a "poor man's LojackⓇ" in my daughter's new car.
> It can be tracked by her (or me), and it was only $100, and has no

> monthly fees. ...


You'd also need a gun, for when you find the car.


> ... But with an insurance discount of only $7 every six

> months, it would take 8 years to break even.
>
> Don't insult cops because they get a good pension. It's very hard to
> recruit cops, and the pension is the big attraction because the salaries
> are not great, and it's a risky profession. San Jose tried cutting their
> police pensions and it resulted in a huge exodus of cops to other
> cities, even though San Jose had higher police salaries. Bad move since
> the acquisition and training costs of new cops is high.

I didn't mean police pensions so much but this kind:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/05/05/university-of-california-retirees-300k-pensions/

http://californiapolicycenter.org/average-calpers-pension-up-to-5-times-greater-than-comparable-social-security-payouts/

Combined with a much earlier retirement age. Is it any wonder that we
have high tax load yet poor police performance, poor school performance,
dilapidated roads et cetera?

[Doug Landau]

> The topper in the next street was a guy with a fairly old BMW
> motorcycle. One morning he came down ... both Bing carburetors gone.
> The guy who stole them must have been a BMW lover because he draped
> something over the intakes so rain would not enter the cylinders.

Maybe he's planning on coming back for them

[jbeattie]

At least Trump targeted the carried interest rules -- apparently because he hates hedge fund managers. You have to get on his hate list to have your taxes increased. I guess he hates his believers. He's kind of like the Old Testament God -- but orange.

-- Jay Beattie.