MTB disc brake caused wild fire

[Joerg]

Remember when some folks here scoffed at that risk? Bernd Ullrich in the
German language bike NG posted this link but it is in German:

http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/ausland/oesterreich-heisse-bremsscheibe-von-mountainbikes-loest-waldbrand-an-aid-1.7479241

Here are link with photos and a video of the fire:

http://www.vol.at/vorarlberg-waldbrand-am-muttersberg/5722558

http://vorarlberg.orf.at/news/stories/2903197/

Long story short it says that a Swiss MTB rider parked his MTB in grass
after a downhill ride. Then ... phut ... smoke and flames. He and two
other guys were unable to put out the fast-spreading fire. Two
helicopters over 100 fire fighters were required to get this under control.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[jbeattie]

The scoffers are so sorry to have scoffed! We will now proceed to hysteria! http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/wwfeatures/wm/live/1280_640/images/live/p0/3l/cp/p03lcphh.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

BTW -- note to Swiss MTB rider: if your bike has flaming hot rotors, lay it down on the right side or lean it against a tree.

[sms]

Grant Petersen was right.
<https://www.rivbike.com/pages/disc-brakes>

[AMuzi]

When an e-bike battery blows up and immolates Cameron Park,
THAT will be news.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

Quote "But the idea that hub-disc brakes are an advancement or even
desirable for general purpose riding ... is nonsense"

If that's really his reasoning then he hasn't got a clue. Yesterday I
coasted back down a hill with a friend and a nasty hail storm set in. He
had disc brakes and could always stop on a dime. I was on my road bike
with rim brakes and they started to fail miserably. I had to keep them
partially engaged almost the whole time to make sure I had enough brake
actions when needed.

[Joerg]

This one in 2017 was caused by a failing E-bike battery. Kept 70 fire
fighters and 30 fire trucks busy:

http://www.kn-online.de/Nachrichten/Panorama/E-Bike-Akku-explodiert-Brand-in-Parkhaus

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4E8oUHVcAEjtoN.jpg

[Frank Krygowski]

You had to squeeze your levers almost the whole time?

Oh, the humanity!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

It's not the squeezing, it's the constant grinding noise. Grinding noise
+ several miles = rim abrasion.

Disc brakes are simply superior in that and many other domains.

Interestingly, the grinding noise from the Koolstop pads was worse than
from the much cheaper Clarks pads. Braking efficiency in that weather
was equally lousy.

[James]

I just got home from a ride in the rain. I used my rim brakes for quite
a way down the 2km descent to home. I didn't notice any grinding noise.
I washed a little aluminium oxide from the rims and brakes when I got
home.

No big deal.

--
JS

[jbeattie]

Road discs are relatively new, at least for an old guy like me. I rode in the rain for decades with rim brakes. I didn't die.

But, discs are better in the rain -- they stop better and don't grind down rims, which can happen after months of riding in the rain, particularly for a heavier rider who uses a lot of braking force. I work with a big guy who was going through a pair or rims every two years, and he paid others to re-rim his wheels -- so he spent some real dough. He shifted to discs a couple of years ago. I've been on a commuter with cable discs for 12 years and a year or two on hydraulics for the fast rain bike. Its nifty being a bicycle plumber.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tim McNamara]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 13:57:31 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>
> Grant Petersen was right. <https://www.rivbike.com/pages/disc-brakes>

Well, he kinda often is...

[jbeattie]

He's right for him. Personally, I think his bikes look like Victorian reproductions. https://78.media.tumblr.com/79e9dcf8e87a977473956fa185f730cc/tumblr_p60cy4A2pd1qe3ngpo8_540.jpg

Not that I hate steel, but if I were buying a steel all-in-one bike, I'd get one with discs because I ride in the rain a lot -- most days this time of year. You have more choices with tires and can even switch between wheels sizes if that's your thing. Cable discs are easy to install and maintain although pad life is shorter. Hydraulics are awesome but you have to do some plumbing and the concept of a hydraulic system on a bike may be too much for some.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-27 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 8:42:44 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 13:57:31 -0700, sms
>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Grant Petersen was right.
>>> <https://www.rivbike.com/pages/disc-brakes>
>>
>> Well, he kinda often is...
>
> He's right for him. Personally, I think his bikes look like Victorian
> reproductions.
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/79e9dcf8e87a977473956fa185f730cc/tumblr_p60cy4A2pd1qe3ngpo8_540.jpg
>
> Not that I hate steel, but if I were buying a steel all-in-one bike,
> I'd get one with discs because I ride in the rain a lot -- most days
> this time of year.

Hard rain or hail like here on Sunday is the worst. It seems to splatter
up whatever gunk in on the surface and then the rim brake pads try to
massage that into the aluminum. It becomes evident when stopping under a
bridge and seeing "fuzz" on the rim end of the spokes but none towards
the hub.


> ... You have more choices with tires and can even

> switch between wheels sizes if that's your thing. Cable discs are
> easy to install and maintain although pad life is shorter. Hydraulics
> are awesome but you have to do some plumbing and the concept of a
> hydraulic system on a bike may be too much for some.
>

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

[sms]

I still have a Arai drum brake wheel for my Trek tandem. For long steep
descents on a tandem, you really have to watch out for rims heating to
the point where you can get a blowout.

I suspect that not many non-disc brake tandems, other than the el-cheapo
BSO tandems, are being sold anymore. Santana does have one entry-level
model where the disc brake is optional.

[Joerg]

IIRC it's a long volcano descent in Hawaii where they only rent out drum
brake bicycles to avoid problems with overheated brakes.

> I suspect that not many non-disc brake tandems, other than the el-cheapo
> BSO tandems, are being sold anymore.

They shouldn't be. I remember an executive retreat where one of the
team-building exercises was tandem riding with someone you do not often
interact with at the company. So here we were, both proud members of the
0.1-ton class, lumbering down a long hill. We were the bicycle
equivalent of a full propane truck. At some point a stench came from the
front rim brake rubbers.

You should have seen some of the teams where neither rider was a
cyclist. Priceless. However, laughing at other teams was not allowed.


> ... Santana does have one entry-level

> model where the disc brake is optional.
>

One guy on the German NG has disc brakes plus a rim brake on the rear
for extra braking power. That makes a lot of sense on a vacation trip
with extra cargo.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/27/2018 12:54 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> I still have a Arai drum brake wheel for my Trek tandem. For long steep
> descents on a tandem, you really have to watch out for rims heating to
> the point where you can get a blowout.
>
> I suspect that not many non-disc brake tandems, other than the el-cheapo
> BSO tandems, are being sold anymore. Santana does have one entry-level
> model where the disc brake is optional.

Popularity isn't usually driven by practicality. It's usually driven
more by fashion. Tattoos, ripped jeans, aero sunglasses, carbon fiber
everything, minipumps and disc brakes are nearly always fashion choices.
They're hardly different than new hairstyles.

Jay mentions riding in Oregon rain for decades using rim brakes. We've
ridden our tandem with only rim brakes for decades. We've had no
problems at all.

Full disclosure: The tandem was a custom build, with the builder (Jim
Bradford) also supplying and installing all the components. I asked for
a double-threaded Phil rear hub so I could install a hub brake if I
decided I needed it.

Bradford said it wasn't necessary, that he and his fiance had toured the
Alps on one of his tandems with only cantilever rim brakes.

I've never toured the Alps, but our tandem has never needed more brakes.
Which is good, because one of his many mistakes on this bike was
supplying a rear hub without the brake threading.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:

>
> Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
> require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
> mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
> brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.
>

With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is harder than tool
steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you could build a front wheel for your
MTB using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.

--
JS

[Joerg]

After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite pleased with the
brake performance of my MTB. The bleeding is messy but only needs to be
done about once a year and takes 1/2h.

[sms]

On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

> Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
> require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
> mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
> brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.

[Joerg]

They are not powerful enough for MTB with large riders and some cargo.
Also, many mechanical systems only have a piston on one side which over
time results in the rotor being bent sideways when braking.

After having ridden offroad with rim brakes, mechanical discs and
hydraulic disks I found hydraulic discs to be far superior and never
looked back.

For road bikes machanical discs should suffice. IF I ever need a new one
I will make 100% sure it does not have rim brakes.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Well argued! I assume it is based on own experience.

Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Once a year? Why?

Lou

[Joerg]

Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake starts feeling
soft. Braking is still fine and most other riders just leave it like
that but I like the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on
a long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing something right.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-29 12:25, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
>>>>> On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then
>>>>>> they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
>>>>>> business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
>>>>>> them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for
>>>>>> heavy duty MTB riding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is harder than tool
>>>>> steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you could build a front wheel for your
>>>>> MTB using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite pleased with the
>>>> brake performance of my MTB. The bleeding is messy but only needs to be
>>>> done about once a year and takes 1/2h.
>>>>

>>>

>>> Once a year? Why?
>>>
>>
>> Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake starts feeling
>> soft. Braking is still fine and most other riders just leave it like
>> that but I like the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
>> amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on
>> a long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.
>>

> Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no
mountain lions. Of course they work for you.

[Roger Merriman]

Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride through
rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state where you can't
even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well, except they
can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

[Joerg]

I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

[Frank Krygowski]

Keep in mind, nothing works for Joerg.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Gads, I'm afraid to ride home on my cable discs, and I might even ride home on this odd-ball trail: https://swtrails.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/oct-11-2014-hikers-in-distance-at-viewpoint-under-freeway.jpg Right under I-5. And adding to the danger, I'll be on rim brakes this weekend. Eeeeeek!

MTBs are a different deal, and I can see being wedded to hydraulic discs. And I really do like the hydraulic discs on my road bikes. Nothing like the smell of mineral oil in the morning. Do I need hydraulic discs? No. I've ridden all the passes in Joergville, loaded and unloaded with caliper brakes and cantis -- Monitor, Ebbetts, Pacific Grade, Luther, Carson, Sonora, Tioga -- almost all of HWY 49. The Rockies, Cascades -- all them moun-tains across the US. No runaway train stories. I guess I just lack gnarliness.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...



Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

He, the wolf is back in The Netherland. Time to bleed my brakes...

Lou

[John B.]

I have the feeling that the effectiveness of brakes is far more a
factor of the rider then any mechanical effect. Not that I have a
tandem but I do find that my conventional rim brakes provide adequate
service in either wet or dry conditions.

I note that some of those who have so many problems with rim brakes
seem to have so many problems with practically everything on the
bicycle and, I might add that those who don't seem to have a lot of
brake problems don't seem that have a lot of problems with the rest of
the bike either :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou

[John B.]

I don't know, or more factually, I never noticed. And, yes, as I live
in a tropical country I do get caught in the rain from time to time.
To be frank, I never gave the brakes a thought - they just worked.

Then along came this thread and I discovered that the rim brakes that
I had always considered satisfactory turned out to be Shit! Damn,
about 20 years of being satisfied with what I had and now I've got to
convert to disc brakes to be able to stop the bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

No one but Joerg is saying that you die if you use rim brakes. We all use or used rim brakes and we survived. This doesn't mean that (hydraulic) disc brake are better in wet conditions.

Lou

[AMuzi]

You merely have bright green vipers, not mountain lions.

[jbeattie]

Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal and used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He would step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice day." I didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to Portland. He would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July for the races at Alpenrose. https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/alpenrose-velodrome-track-daze-2015-oregon.jpg He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain storms, and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then and some rain. It is, however, a dry climate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4 Lots of oak, madrone, bay and brown grass during summer. I miss the smell, and up the road a ways, there is some great climbing . . . on the road. In fact, it is some of the best climbing and scenery in the US, although considerably east of Joerg's house.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Now try that again when the rims are wet. With locking up I mean
instantly, tens of milliseconds.

[Joerg]

I use rim brakes 50% of the time because my road bike has Shimano 600
gear. However, in really foul weather and treahcerous routes one must
keep the brakes slight engaged to be able to stop fast. Else 1-2sec free
fall and potentialy a crash. Almost had that a week ago when a car
driver blew a stop sign during a hail storm. He probably didn't even see it.

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

BTW, during that hail storm we stopped in a tunnel for a while. There
was also a guy with a German Sheperd which, of course, I had to meet.
Turns out he is from the Netherlands and when he saw my road bike with
the Dutch Gazelle Trim Trophy frame he was pleasantly surprised to see
one this far away.

[Joerg]

Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?

Mud is really horrid on rim brakes. 1-2sec "free fall" and then a
grinding noise while the rim gets eaten.

> Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal and
> used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He would
> step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice day." I
> didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to Portland. He
> would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July for the races at
> Alpenrose.
> https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/alpenrose-velodrome-track-daze-2015-oregon.jpg
> He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We
> were cooking in July.
>
> Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain storms,
> and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then and some
> rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4

Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s


> ... Lots of oak, madrone, bay

> and brown grass during summer. I miss the smell, and up the road a
> ways, there is some great climbing . . . on the road. In fact, it is
> some of the best climbing and scenery in the US, although
> considerably east of Joerg's house.
>

It's all around us. Road and offroad, and I prefer offroad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH--6YiJcwU

Though my ultimate retirement destination would be St.George in Utah.

[jbeattie]

I've flown in there with my brother a few times -- it's a quick spin from STS and Santa Rosa. I could not imagine living near an airstrip, however.

You better visit St. George before moving. It's the moon compared to the Sierra foothills. If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean. No strip malls.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I will admit that for a given amount of lever force, my rim brakes
produce less braking force in wet weather. So if necessary, I increase
the lever force. That is, I squeeze harder.

Is it a safety problem? Joerg talks about instances where he would have
died but for the slightly faster response of a disc brake compared to a
wet rim brake.

Well, I've never come close to a crash from that cause. But then,
despite my stubborn use of archaic bike technology, I've had only two
on-road crashes since 1972, neither related to brakes. And I haven't died.

I did have one serious brake failure in 1973 or 1974. My wife and I were
riding in a thunderstorm downpour on our first (very lousy) ten speed
bikes. Those had chrome steel rims with hundreds of dimples that acted
as water reservoirs, plus thin, scrappy-looking Ballila center pull
brakes. On a short steep downhill before a T intersection, we couldn't
make the turn because our wet brakes wouldn't slow us in time; so we
rolled past the stem of the T. But once we switched to bikes with decent
calipers and alloy rims, we've never had a similar problem.

Riding in rain, are disc brakes better? Probably so. Are rim brakes bad?
Not in my experience. It doesn't take a genius to compensate for the
difference in brake performance when wet.

And I see no reason to chase after absolutely every purported
improvement to the bicycle. There are always benefits and detriments,
and good enough is always good enough, by definition.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
> things that increase safety, no matter where.

I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
high flippy flags on your bikes? Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
stairs in your home and install elevators?

Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
easily duped.

I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2018 4:56 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> I note that some of those who have so many problems with rim brakes
> seem to have so many problems with practically everything on the
> bicycle and, I might add that those who don't seem to have a lot of
> brake problems don't seem that have a lot of problems with the rest of
> the bike either :-)

Very true.

I'll note that further generalization is possible. Some people just have
lots more trouble than others. But I suppose it's rude to speculate why.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Just in my backyard, most of the time just across the German border. Once in a while I make a clip of our ride. You can download (it is save) a clip of a typical sunday morning winter ride here

https://we.tl/6awaXeHLBp

Lou

[John B.]

But "Better"means what? That you can stop faster with a disc? But my
rim brakes will skid either or both wheels in the wet. Given that
bicycle braking is limited by(1) tire adhesion to the blacktop and/or
(2) keeping the rear wheel on the ground how can a brake be better
then one that can stop the wheel from turning?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:19:42 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

A recent study demonstrated that an auditory stimulus takes 8 - 10 ms
to reach the brain, but on the other hand, a visual stimulus takes
20-40 ms. After the brain recognizes the event it must trigger the
muscles to react. Most texts seem to suggest that a good reaction time
is anywhere between 0.25 seconds and 0.35 seconds. Or 250 - 350
milliseconds. Your 10 millisecond reaction is much quicker then has
been tested in humans.... One can only assume that you are from
Krypton.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-30 08:42, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:03:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal
>>> and used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He
>>> would step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice
>>> day." I didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to
>>> Portland. He would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July
>>> for the races at Alpenrose.
>>> https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/alpenrose-velodrome-track-daze-2015-oregon.jpg
>>>
>>>
He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We
>>> were cooking in July.
>>>
>>> Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain
>>> storms, and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then
>>> and some rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4
>>
>>
>> Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s
>
> I've flown in there with my brother a few times -- it's a quick spin
> from STS and Santa Rosa. I could not imagine living near an airstrip,
> however.
>
> You better visit St. George before moving. It's the moon compared to
> the Sierra foothills.

Yes, I'd have to re-visit. We used to hike a lot in Utah when we were
younger. It's not the moon, just different. Vegetation is often thin and
low but you have endless trails. In the rocky areas you can pretty much
point yourself in a certain direction and just go. Until you reach some
cliff and then a gorgeous view opens.

One major advantage in Southern Utah is that almost nothing grows.
Meaning much less weed pulling than here. My ideal backyard consists of
sand, a rock and a cactus. The cactus is optional.


> ... If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of

> those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean. No strip
> malls.
>

With a corrupt leftist government, profligate spending and
correspondingly painful taxes? No thanks. I'd prefer something in the
Caribbean anyhow. However, no matter the new destination that would
usually require learning a new language. Not a problem for me but my
wife wouldn't like that.

[Joerg]

That's not a lot of dirt, just wee mud puddles on a meandering forest
path. Also, it's totally flat so you won't experience what I did when I
rode an MTB with rim brakes: Muddy trail like yours but downhill.
Reached in, nothing, only horrid sandpaper sounds, sharp turn with cliff
approaching fast. I almost needed a bathroom after that. This simply
does not happen with disc brakes.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
>> things that increase safety, no matter where.
>
> I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
> possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
> when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
> high flippy flags on your bikes?

I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
flippy flag!


> ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?

> Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
> stairs in your home and install elevators?
>

There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.

> Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
> marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
> length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
> easily duped.
>
> I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.
>

The visibility issue I have solved years ago. MagicShine clones and
bright LED backlights. That's not difficult.

[Joerg]

Ever heard of the term "muscle memory"?

Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Even if your decision and action takes a
whopping half second and _then_ you pull the brake lever, it does matter
whether the braking occurs instantly or 1-2sec delay _after_ pulling the
lever. If a turn with a cliff is coming up it matters a whole lot.

Rim brakes are something for the dust bin of history just like the old
rubber pads that pushed onto the running surface of the front tire.

[Joerg]

In California might not want to. There'd be a sizeable homeless camp
under there and they might not like it when someone rolls through
"their" turf.

> Right under I-5. And adding to the danger, I'll be on rim brakes this
> weekend. Eeeeeek!
>
> MTBs are a different deal, and I can see being wedded to hydraulic
> discs. And I really do like the hydraulic discs on my road bikes.
> Nothing like the smell of mineral oil in the morning. Do I need
> hydraulic discs? No. I've ridden all the passes in Joergville,
> loaded and unloaded with caliper brakes and cantis -- Monitor,
> Ebbetts, Pacific Grade, Luther, Carson, Sonora, Tioga -- almost all
> of HWY 49. The Rockies, Cascades -- all them moun-tains across the
> US. No runaway train stories. I guess I just lack gnarliness.
>

On a road bike under regular conditions rim brakes are ok. Not great but
ok. They do become a problem when it's pouring and then, for example, a
guy in a logging truck didn't see you and suddenly accelerates on into
the road. Last time that happened to me it was "only" a pickup truck but
crashing into its side isn't fun either. I was able to stop but barely,
was getting ready to bail.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Op zaterdag 31 maart 2018 16:20:28 UTC+2 schreef Joerg:

Not unusual:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/0KviHxMzDlHsok3H3

Lou

[AMuzi]

Where the voters demand kiddy paths to nowhere, the taxpayer
must be punished.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/31/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
>>> things that increase safety, no matter where.
>>
>> I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
>> possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
>> when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
>> high flippy flags on your bikes?
>
>
> I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
> yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
> flippy flag!
>
>
>>                        ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
>> Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
>> stairs in your home and install elevators?
>>
>
> There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.

Indeed there is, Joerg. Indeed there is.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I rode home up this trail: http://fot.delaris.com/images/uploads/Pictures/49/marquamtrail__large.jpg It's f****** steep -- steeper than it looks, and it narrows. I stalled out near the top and got stuck on a section with a little leafy cliff to the left. I had to scooter to a place where I could swing my leg over the saddle. That's the problem with CX bikes and high BBs. I was also on semi-slicks, and I was probably not supposed to be on the trail in the first place. One gets bored with the usual routes home and does stupid things.

The homeless people are back in the woods but more on the actual paved bike paths. I attempted to ride home on this trail (from the bottom up) and ran into a bunch of camp sites. https://www.brokenandcoastal.com/journal/river-view-natural-area This is almost in my back yard and was open to bikes when it was privately owned (by the same folks who built my neighborhood in the '50s). The City bought it and banned bikes because (drum roll), too many cars at the trail head in the neighborhood. The neighbors were complaining. I used to ride it on my CX bike. Great practice riding over root pots.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-31 08:34, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/31/2018 9:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-30 08:42, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> ... If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of
>>> those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean.
>>> No strip
>>> malls.
>>>
>>
>> With a corrupt leftist government, profligate spending and
>> correspondingly painful taxes? No thanks. I'd prefer
>> something in the Caribbean anyhow. However, no matter the
>> new destination that would usually require learning a new
>> language. Not a problem for me but my wife wouldn't like that.
>>
>
> Where the voters demand kiddy paths to nowhere, the taxpayer must be
> punished.
>

Only some demand that and those are generally the same bleeding heart
folks who support a bullet train to nowhere.

Most don't. They want bike paths where it makes sense. For example, when
a highway gets built and there is a sign that no bicycles are allowed on
it. When a right-of-way gets taken away it is very normal to demand a
replacement.

[Joerg]

Right, and an attentive viewer will notice that the bike in your photo
link has disc brakes. Applying rim brakes under that condition will
cause a substantial delay until the brake force appears. In your video
it wouldn't matter because it's all flatlands and you won't encounter a
sharp turn with a cliff on the outside. Like this are 0:51min, 1:13min,
1:29min, 1:35min and so on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1USLVraV4mU

It's one of my regular routes. I would not want to ride that in the rain
with a rim brake bike, it would be no fun.

Mud will also eat rims. At least out here where there is lots of sand
mixed in such mud. When my old MTB had around 1000mi on it there were
already deep grooves in the rims. By that time I had made the decision
that this isn't going to work and bought a proper MTB with disc brakes
and all. I still have the old one but it is now my "commute mule" to
take along in the SUV on business trips. Most of those are to the
flatlands and there the bike is fine.

[Joerg]

Sometimes it helps to just lay yourself into the uphill side vegetation
and roll off the bike with the hillside leg stretched backwards. Of
course, one first has to ascertain whether something lives in the
vegetation that might object to being squished.


> ... I was also on semi-slicks, and I was probably not supposed

> to be on the trail in the first place. One gets bored with the usual
> routes home and does stupid things.
>

I do that a lot with my road bike. Oh, there is a nice little trail!
Wish I was on my MTB. Ah, heck, lets ride it anyhow.

> The homeless people are back in the woods but more on the actual
> paved bike paths. I attempted to ride home on this trail (from the
> bottom up) and ran into a bunch of camp sites.

Similar here, though many have moved to Sacramento because they elected
a major who keeps promising them freebies. Oh well, that's no my tax
dollars. Most are friendly but there is the occasional burly looking guy
who is clearly mentally off his rocker. Where it has gotten really bad
is the Western part of the American River bike Path. Cyclists have been
attacked by pitbulls from homeless people, rocks were thrown at cyclists
and one guy was wielding a machete.

> https://www.brokenandcoastal.com/journal/river-view-natural-area
> This is almost in my back yard and was open to bikes when it was
> privately owned (by the same folks who built my neighborhood in the
> '50s). The City bought it and banned bikes because (drum roll), too
> many cars at the trail head in the neighborhood. The neighbors were
> complaining. I used to ride it on my CX bike. Great practice riding
> over root pots.
>

I can't do that on CX anymore on account of a bad back. One missed root
or rut or getting out of the saddle a second too late and I'd pay for
that for days. Plus I'd break the bike because I always carry some load.

[John B.]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 07:28:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Yup. and I am also aware of the old barroom game where you hold your
thumb and forefinger about an inch apart and a guy dangles a dollar
bill between them. the game is when he drops the bill you catch it
without moving your hand up or down, and you probably can't do it.

I've been playing the game for, probably, forty years and haven't come
across more then 10 or a dozen individuals in all those years who can
catch the bill.

As I said, one can only assume that you are from Krypton.

>
>Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Even if your decision and action takes a
>whopping half second and _then_ you pull the brake lever, it does matter
>whether the braking occurs instantly or 1-2sec delay _after_ pulling the
>lever. If a turn with a cliff is coming up it matters a whole lot.
>
>Rim brakes are something for the dust bin of history just like the old
>rubber pads that pushed onto the running surface of the front tire.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And my Brother-in-law, the paving contractor claps his hands with joy.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

The dollar bill takes about 0.18 seconds to drop past one's fingers.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Try it with a $20. It seems to fall faster :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I think no one is arguing that in that kind of situation hydraulic disk brakes are the better choice. That doesn't mean that you die if you use rimbrakes. You have just be aware of the limitations and behavior of your brakes. That is part of your riders skills. If rider skills are not a factor than everone rides a full suspension bike. I prefer a cross bike just because of the riders skill needed to get around off road. I admire the pro cross riders (man and women) more than the dumb downhillers. YMMV.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/1/2018 2:44 AM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think no one is arguing that in that kind of situation hydraulic disk brakes are the better choice. That doesn't mean that you die if you use rimbrakes. You have just be aware of the limitations and behavior of your brakes. That is part of your riders skills.

Exactly. And more generally, I think we can say that most bike problems
- crashes, broken equipment, etc. - are caused by a lack of rider skills
and/or a lack of foresight. I think he more intelligent and competent a
person is, the fewer problems he has.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

You could get in trouble, for example, if an unforseen situation comes
up. Like that logging truck driver not seeing you. In my case it was a
buck that didn't pay attention and cut diagonally across the singletrack
without looking at me. With rim brakes we'd have collided. Couldn't
believe it. He just kept running and running, without looking back even
once.

> You have just be aware of the limitations and
> behavior of your brakes. That is part of your riders skills. If rider
> skills are not a factor than everone rides a full suspension bike. I
> prefer a cross bike just because of the riders skill needed to get
> around off road. I admire the pro cross riders (man and women) more
> than the dumb downhillers. YMMV.
>

If you ride by yourself that's fine. However, you won't be able to keep
up with a team when the weather is bad and you are the only one with rim
brakes. Inferior equipment is no fun. Why go offroad with inadequate
brakes when you can buy better systems for not much money?

We could go back to the days when cars only had brakes on the two rear
wheels. Would anynone want to?

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-31 23:18, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 21:41:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/31/2018 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 07:28:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:

[...]

>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of the term "muscle memory"?
>>>
>>> Yup. and I am also aware of the old barroom game where you hold your
>>> thumb and forefinger about an inch apart and a guy dangles a dollar
>>> bill between them. the game is when he drops the bill you catch it
>>> without moving your hand up or down, and you probably can't do it.
>>>
>>> I've been playing the game for, probably, forty years and haven't come
>>> across more then 10 or a dozen individuals in all those years who can
>>> catch the bill.
>>>

Out here in the Wild West it used to be that if the muscle memory in
your index finger wasn't fast enough your life time was generally
shorter. Unless you avoided gun fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5WjkI5FuP0

>>> As I said, one can only assume that you are from Krypton.
>>

Sometimes others seem to think that as well. This year I brought my tax
stuff to the CPA via road bike which they said is highly unusual. A few
years ago I came via singletrack on the MTB, shook off some mud and made
sure the bottoms of my shoes were clean enough not to dirty their lobby
carpet. The receptionist asked with wide eyes "You came from WHERE?"

>> The dollar bill takes about 0.18 seconds to drop past one's fingers.
>
> Try it with a $20. It seems to fall faster :-)
>

Not anymore, inflation ate some of that. Try it with a 20 Baht bill,
then you should be able to catch it :-)

[AMuzi]

A $20 is worth a lot less now than a $10 was when first I
tried that.

[jbeattie]

And yet, for decades, I rode rim brakes in the rain, mud, etc. The downside was the rim-lathe of grit against aluminum rims and momentary loss of braking, but on a wet surface, the real problem has always been traction.

The two times my bike didn't stop in the rain due to brake issues were: (1) pulling a trailer with my son in it on poorly adjusted cantis with STI levers, and (2) descending a sled run out of the West Hills with worn and unadjusted pads on cable discs. I stopped and dialed in the pads which solved that problem. In both cases, hard braking would have had me skidding down a wet road or path.

I rode maybe 40-50 miles yesterday all climbing and descending on my uber-bike (no instrumentation and no idea of elevation) with direct mount calipers. It was dry, and I didn't give my brakes a moment's thought. My braking issues were all about when I slowed and road surface quality.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 4/1/2018 9:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> And yet, for decades, I rode rim brakes in the rain, mud, etc. The downside was the rim-lathe of grit against aluminum rims and momentary loss of braking, but on a wet surface, the real problem has always been traction.
>
> The two times my bike didn't stop in the rain due to brake issues were: (1) pulling a trailer with my son in it on poorly adjusted cantis with STI levers, and (2) descending a sled run out of the West Hills with worn and unadjusted pads on cable discs. I stopped and dialed in the pads which solved that problem. In both cases, hard braking would have had me skidding down a wet road or path.
>
> I rode maybe 40-50 miles yesterday all climbing and descending on my uber-bike (no instrumentation and no idea of elevation) with direct mount calipers. It was dry, and I didn't give my brakes a moment's thought. My braking issues were all about when I slowed and road surface quality.

You may have done this for decades, but you were not having any fun
doing so.

I have a friend who used to go on and on about the greatness of Price
Club (now Costco). I asked him "Tom, how did you survive before Price
Club?" His response: "I survived, but it wasn't much of a life."

[Roger Merriman]

There is a fair variation in rim brakes, my Previous CX/gravel etc bike
hand canti and where very weak brakes, but dual pivots are fine, never felt
worrying poor, performance did drop off in wet grimy conditions.

Disks are better but they are much better off road, on road even mucky wet
back roads it’s not that much difference.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?

Again Modern MTB tyres can exert a surprising amount of grip even technical
terrain.

Has to be said it might be possible for a rim brake in the dry to exert the
same force, but once off perfect conditions its performance declines, I
have fond memories of glowing forearms from long wet MTB descents.

Such descents even on rigid bikes with disks such as my Gravel bike, are
far easier and frankly more fun!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 01 Apr 2018 07:29:17 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2018-03-31 23:18, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 21:41:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/31/2018 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 07:28:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ever heard of the term "muscle memory"?
>>>>
>>>> Yup. and I am also aware of the old barroom game where you hold your
>>>> thumb and forefinger about an inch apart and a guy dangles a dollar
>>>> bill between them. the game is when he drops the bill you catch it
>>>> without moving your hand up or down, and you probably can't do it.
>>>>
>>>> I've been playing the game for, probably, forty years and haven't come
>>>> across more then 10 or a dozen individuals in all those years who can
>>>> catch the bill.
>>>>
>
>Out here in the Wild West it used to be that if the muscle memory in
>your index finger wasn't fast enough your life time was generally
>shorter. Unless you avoided gun fights.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5WjkI5FuP0
>

And yet, in the history of the "Old West" there was only one "quick
draw" type of gunfight.

And, given that most pistols of that period were "single action" it
was a quick thumb that counted :-)

>
>>>> As I said, one can only assume that you are from Krypton.
>>>
>
>Sometimes others seem to think that as well. This year I brought my tax
>stuff to the CPA via road bike which they said is highly unusual. A few
>years ago I came via singletrack on the MTB, shook off some mud and made
>sure the bottoms of my shoes were clean enough not to dirty their lobby
>carpet. The receptionist asked with wide eyes "You came from WHERE?"
>
>
>>> The dollar bill takes about 0.18 seconds to drop past one's fingers.
>>
>> Try it with a $20. It seems to fall faster :-)
>>
>
>Not anymore, inflation ate some of that. Try it with a 20 Baht bill,
>then you should be able to catch it :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

> Again Modern MTB tyres can exert a surprising amount of grip even technical
> terrain.
>
> Has to be said it might be possible for a rim brake in the dry to exert the
> same force, but once off perfect conditions its performance declines, I
> have fond memories of glowing forearms from long wet MTB descents.
>
> Such descents even on rigid bikes with disks such as my Gravel bike, are
> far easier and frankly more fun!
>

Also much cheaper because after 2000mi of rough riding with rim brakes
the rims might be through and that gets expensive. Even replacing pads
is quicker with disc brakes. Drop out the wheel, remove the spring, old
pads drop out, scoot in new pads and spring, wheel back in, done. No
adjusting, toe-in and all that.

The prices are also interestingly different. Not that this matter much
but just noting. The lowest cost but well working pads for rim brakes I
found are Clarks from the UK, around $4-5/pair. The lowest cost pads
with good quality for Promax Decipher hydraulic disc brakes are $2/pair
from Hangzhou Novich.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.

>
>
> > Again Modern MTB tyres can exert a surprising amount of grip even technical
> > terrain.
> >
> > Has to be said it might be possible for a rim brake in the dry to exert the
> > same force, but once off perfect conditions its performance declines, I
> > have fond memories of glowing forearms from long wet MTB descents.
> >
> > Such descents even on rigid bikes with disks such as my Gravel bike, are
> > far easier and frankly more fun!
> >
>
> Also much cheaper because after 2000mi of rough riding with rim brakes
> the rims might be through and that gets expensive. Even replacing pads
> is quicker with disc brakes. Drop out the wheel, remove the spring, old
> pads drop out, scoot in new pads and spring, wheel back in, done. No
> adjusting, toe-in and all that.
>
> The prices are also interestingly different. Not that this matter much
> but just noting. The lowest cost but well working pads for rim brakes I
> found are Clarks from the UK, around $4-5/pair. The lowest cost pads
> with good quality for Promax Decipher hydraulic disc brakes are $2/pair
> from Hangzhou Novich.

It is amazing that you still use ancient (Shimano 600) rim brakes on your road bike.


Lou

[Joerg]

Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

>>
>>
>>> Again Modern MTB tyres can exert a surprising amount of grip even technical
>>> terrain.
>>>
>>> Has to be said it might be possible for a rim brake in the dry to exert the
>>> same force, but once off perfect conditions its performance declines, I
>>> have fond memories of glowing forearms from long wet MTB descents.
>>>
>>> Such descents even on rigid bikes with disks such as my Gravel bike, are
>>> far easier and frankly more fun!
>>>
>>
>> Also much cheaper because after 2000mi of rough riding with rim brakes
>> the rims might be through and that gets expensive. Even replacing pads
>> is quicker with disc brakes. Drop out the wheel, remove the spring, old
>> pads drop out, scoot in new pads and spring, wheel back in, done. No
>> adjusting, toe-in and all that.
>>
>> The prices are also interestingly different. Not that this matter much
>> but just noting. The lowest cost but well working pads for rim brakes I
>> found are Clarks from the UK, around $4-5/pair. The lowest cost pads
>> with good quality for Promax Decipher hydraulic disc brakes are $2/pair
>> from Hangzhou Novich.
>
> It is amazing that you still use ancient (Shimano 600) rim brakes on your road bike.
>

Why?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:

>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
>>> and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
>>> force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
>>> pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.
>>>
>> Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
>> Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
>> posts are in use?
>>
>
> You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
> ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
> France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
> saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
> they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

It wasn't posted by me, but it was the Tour of Utah, not the Tour de
France. And some riders slid back on their seats, some did not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyRqN7ukxrw

Joerg, you seem to think sliding back on the seat is magic. It's not.
Under ideal conditions, it might allow a bit greater bike control by
raising the maximum deceleration before losing rear wheel contact. I
calculate 7.6% increase in rear "liftoff" deceleration with my touring
bike. In the video, I doubt that modest difference would have prevented
any crashes. And in many sudden emergency situations, it's probably
better to think about other things than "Where's my butt?"

Back to gripping the lever: Drop post or no, sliding back or no, I don't
see much benefit in reducing lever force below a certain level. Whether
we're talking about brake mechanical advantage, or headlight brightness,
or clothing visibility or whatever, there's no need to go to ridiculous
extremes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Both of those statements are probably false. You're "Monday morning
quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
smart.

Most of those riders probably do more mountain biking than you do. They
all do far more annual mileage than you do. They probably read more
about cycling, discuss more with peers, listen more to professional
coaches, spend more time practicing technique, and can shame you in any
head-to-head contest.

I doubt any of those guys would be foolish enough to say "Aw, I can
design electronic circuits better than Joerg." They're smarter than that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

They are not.


> ... You're "Monday morning

> quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
> smart.

Look at the video. You honestly believe that remaining on or above the
saddle when needing to decelerate fast is smart? If so, please stop
giving classes, it's dangerous.

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
>>>> and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
>>>> force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
>>>> pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.
>>>>
>>> Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
>>> Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
>>> posts are in use?
>>>
>>
>> You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
>> while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour
>> de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
>> saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
>> they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.
>
> It wasn't posted by me, but it was the Tour of Utah, not the Tour de
> France. And some riders slid back on their seats, some did not.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyRqN7ukxrw
>

And which ones crashed? Does it dawn now?

Why do you think downhillers have drop posts?

> Joerg, you seem to think sliding back on the seat is magic. It's not.
> Under ideal conditions, it might allow a bit greater bike control by
> raising the maximum deceleration before losing rear wheel contact. I
> calculate 7.6% increase in rear "liftoff" deceleration with my touring
> bike. In the video, I doubt that modest difference would have prevented
> any crashes. And in many sudden emergency situations, it's probably
> better to think about other things than "Where's my butt?"
>

No, the trick is to not even have to think but do this instinctively.
Every percent increase in deceleration is worth it. Even if you do
crash, it makes a difference whether you smack into something with a
remaining speed to 15mph or 20mph.

> Back to gripping the lever: Drop post or no, sliding back or no, I don't
> see much benefit in reducing lever force below a certain level. Whether
> we're talking about brake mechanical advantage, or headlight brightness,
> or clothing visibility or whatever, there's no need to go to ridiculous
> extremes.
>

Agreed, lever force doesn't mean much. That's just something I find
rather comfortable. What was key for me is that the chance of
overheating the brakes drops substantially when upgrading the rotor
size. So I went to the (reasonable) max front and back. I will never go
back to rotors smaller than 8".

[Frank Krygowski]

Ah! Well, that's conclusive! ;-)

>
>>                                          ... You're "Monday morning
>> quarterbacking." As usual, you may enjoy it, but it doesn't prove you're
>> smart.
>
>
> Look at the video. You honestly believe that remaining on or above the
> saddle when needing to decelerate fast is smart? If so, please stop
> giving classes, it's dangerous.

Let's talk specifics. Pick a rider who crashed. Tell me what he should
have done differently.

The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
sliding sideways. You may say he would be in perfect control if his butt
was behind his seat, but it's very doubtful. We can't see what happened
up the hill. He's going far faster than most and may already have had to
avoid a crash by steering around rather than by braking.

Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.

The guy about to hit the motorcycle at 0:37 has his butt back but his
rear wheel is still in the air.

If you want to "Monday morning quarterback," apply it to the team car
drivers and motorcycle riders. Why did they think it was a good idea to
block the road before a hairpin turn on a super-steep downhill?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I was riding yesterday on the Synapse that replaced the stolen Roubaix that replaced the Cannondale CAAD 9 that went to college with my son. We're getting all my son's bikes from Utah this weekend, including the CAAD 9 and three other bikes. The Roubaix was recovered. We have way too many bikes!

Also coming back is a Windsor Knight -- a $150 frame from Bike Island that I built with a lot of left over 9 speed parts. It was my son's first "fast" bike. I'm going to steal all the parts for my commuter (spares) and Craigs list the frame. The CAAD 9 will probably go, too, since my son wants a disc commuter. He gets pro deal on Cannondale, so he'll probably get a disc bike from them.

Anyway, I was riding around on the Synapse which has both discs and UDi2. It was sprinkling a little but not horrible, so the superior braking was really irrelevant. The Di2 was neat because you can climb out of the saddle and buzz through the gears. It shifts really well under load, so doing the long rollers common to the hinterland, it was like taking an escalator up. https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3539/3412648139_62f58a6d14_b.jpg Does this make riding more fun? Well, it beats the sh** out of having to flop down into the saddle and use DT friction shifting. It's also awesome to have so many gears now that I am decrepit. I NEED the gears now, but I could live with cable STI and rim brakes.

If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42 13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy -- and walking a lot.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

The first rider who crashed rode the wrong line with a ridiculous high speed. Even with his ass on the rear wheel would not prevent that crash. Further there are some morons on the motor and in cars who stopped on a really stupid spot. Amateurs. Was this a pro race?

Lou

[Joerg]

<sigh>

Is it really that difficult?

First crashed rider, way too fast, still in saddle at 0:21min which is
less than a second before impact. I would have been way behind the
saddle many seconds earlier.

0:37min, rider in green jersey, same thing. The one to the right of him
looks like he is trying to scoot behind the saddle at O:37min but that
is way too late. And not surprisingly they both crash.

Of course, the people in the cars and on motorcycles were not very smart
either, remaining right in the curve where cyclists need all the
maneuvering space they could get. That was stupid.

BTW, at 0:05min you can see a rider who has proper skills. The one
behind him at 0:08min doesn't.

> The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
> sliding sideways.

Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons.


> ... You may say he would be in perfect control if his butt

> was behind his seat, but it's very doubtful. We can't see what happened
> up the hill. He's going far faster than most and may already have had to
> avoid a crash by steering around rather than by braking.
>

Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake but the sliding clearly
could have been prevented. He might even have flown off the road even if
there weren't any cars.

> Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.
>

Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have.
There is no need to "belly-ride" a bike when you know there isn't much
more deceleration needed.

This might surprise you but I do remain in the saddle on my MTB most of
the time.

> The guy about to hit the motorcycle at 0:37 has his butt back but his
> rear wheel is still in the air.
>

Not enough. Moving a few inches back does not cut it.

> If you want to "Monday morning quarterback," apply it to the team car
> drivers and motorcycle riders. Why did they think it was a good idea to
> block the road before a hairpin turn on a super-steep downhill?
>

Yes, they were stupid.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2018 1:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
>>>>> and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
>>>>> force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a
>>>>> two
>>>>> pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.
>>>>>
>>>> Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
>>>> Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
>>>> posts are in use?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a
>>> while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour
>>> de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
>>> saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
>>> they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.
>>
>> It wasn't posted by me, but it was the Tour of Utah, not the Tour de
>> France. And some riders slid back on their seats, some did not.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyRqN7ukxrw
>>
>
> And which ones crashed? Does it dawn now?

Watch it again. Get specific. Many stayed on their saddles and did not
crash. At least one guy was behind his seatpost and still crashed.

> Why do you think downhillers have drop posts?

Hold on, Joerg. If you want to talk mountain biking, we'll do that. If
you want to talk about bicycling on roads, the question becomes "Why
doesn't EVERYONE have dropper seatposts?" (My bet is that you don't.)

>> Joerg, you seem to think sliding back on the seat is magic. It's not.
>> Under ideal conditions, it might allow a bit greater bike control by
>> raising the maximum deceleration before losing rear wheel contact. I
>> calculate 7.6% increase in rear "liftoff" deceleration with my touring
>> bike. In the video, I doubt that modest difference would have prevented
>> any crashes. And in many sudden emergency situations, it's probably
>> better to think about other things than "Where's my butt?"
>
> No, the trick is to not even have to think but do this instinctively.
> Every percent increase in deceleration is worth it. Even if you do
> crash, it makes a difference whether you smack into something with a
> remaining speed to 15mph or 20mph.

Look, I first read about this trick back in the mid-1970s. It was taught
in the first nationally sanctioned cycling class I took in (IIRC) 1978.
I taught it myself in cycling classes. Doing it well takes quite a bit
of practice. Doing it at a moment's notice? That's even tougher.

But for road riding, its utility is marginal at best. For one thing, it
is very unlikely to cause a difference of 5 mph. We can go through the
physics, but again: it will allow only about 7.5% more deceleration
before lifting the rear wheel. For my touring bike, that deceleration is
6.8 m/s^2 vs. 6.3 m/s^2. The difference is a bit more on a steep grade,
as you might expect, but at 15% grade it's still less than 10%
difference in deceleration with control.

Then there are the other aspects of control. Your contact with the
saddle is important for control of the bike. (Many who have tried
alternative saddles without a saddle "nose" have noted the decrease in
control.) If you were to get in the habit of sliding way back for -
what? - most braking? Every potential quick stop? ... then you might end
up in more crashes by otherwise losing control of the bike.

This is probably why people don't instinctively do this all the time.
Its benefits are marginal, and it does have detriments. Sometimes the
benefits are greater, sometimes they're not.

Now look again at those crashes. The first guy who crashed was going FAR
faster than other riders. I don't know what happened uphill, but getting
his butt behind his saddle wasn't going to save that butt. If he hadn't
hit the car, he'd have hit one of those pine trees. No way he was going
to stop within the roadway. I think that's true of the next guy, too,
the one who hit the side of the motorcycle.

The entire scene is best described starting with the word "cluster" and
I'll let others finish. But pretending you'd have responded better to
that chaos? No, Joerg. We know you're a macho, manly genius, but just... no.

>> Back to gripping the lever: Drop post or no, sliding back or no, I don't
>> see much benefit in reducing lever force below a certain level. Whether
>> we're talking about brake mechanical advantage, or headlight brightness,
>> or clothing visibility or whatever, there's no need to go to ridiculous
>> extremes.
>>
>
> Agreed, lever force doesn't mean much. That's just something I find
> rather comfortable. What was key for me is that the chance of
> overheating the brakes drops substantially when upgrading the rotor
> size. So I went to the (reasonable) max front and back. I will never go
> back to rotors smaller than 8".

Yeah, mine are closer to 25".

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2018 1:51 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-04-02 10:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
>> sliding sideways.
>
> Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons.

You don't know the reasons! You don't know what he was dealing with just
before he enters the frame! Pretending all would be cured by a different
riding posture is nonsense.


> Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake...

>
>> Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.
>
> Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have.

Well, there you have it! The Monday morning quarterback would have raced
much more slowly! Gosh, why don't more racers think of that simple
strategy? ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. He made a split second error on the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.

“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan, really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘fuck, this is really bad’.”

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a grueling climb.

I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty slough on it.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2018 1:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
> If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42 13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy -- and walking a lot.

Yeah, decrepitude is hell. You're still a little kid. You just wait.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Yes, Tour of Utah. My son was on the tour crew the year after that crash.

2018 teams: https://www.tourofutah.com/race/teams No QuickStep and Niki Terpstra. You Netherlanders are on fire!

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Ah that explains a lot.

Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Yeah, don't forget Anna van den Breggen. She won the ladies edition of the Ronde van Vlaanderen. I rode some of those hills. Man, my legs hurt just watching them lying on the couch after my Sunday morning club ride. Cobble stones are not my cup of tea.

Lou

[sms]

On 3/31/2018 7:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
>>> things that increase safety, no matter where.
>>
>> I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
>> possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
>> when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
>> high flippy flags on your bikes?
>
>
> I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
> yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
> flippy flag!
>
>
>>                        ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
>> Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
>> stairs in your home and install elevators?
>>
>
> There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.
>
>
>> Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
>> marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
>> length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
>> easily duped.
>>
>> I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.
>>
>
> The visibility issue I have solved years ago. MagicShine clones and
> brig

I think he meant to write visibility "study" rather than "visibility" study.
>

[sms]

On 3/29/2018 2:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
>>> require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
>>> mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
>>> brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.
>>
>> Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.
>>
>>
>
> Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
> weather eats, etc.

The pads wear, as with hydraulic brakes, but the adjustments are not
"constant."

Hydraulics are just too much fuss to maintain. No need for more bicycle
maintenance routines with bleeding brakes. Mechanical brakes just work.

[AMuzi]

On 4/2/2018 1:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/2/2018 1:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:

-snippity snip-

>> I will never go back
>> to rotors smaller than 8".

> Yeah, mine are closer to 25".

+1

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

You obviously do not understand it so I'll end the discussion here since
it's fruitless.

[Joerg]

In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that
could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels
iffy.

It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the
saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left
side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver
blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down
much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This
resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying
through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right
shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body
smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no
longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of
my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I
was able to help the elderly driver get out.

He made a split second error on
> the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back
> on and was confused by the support cars:
>
> He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then
> things took a dramatic turn for the worse.
>
> “I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first
> corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line
> of traffic up ahead.
>

This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

> “Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but
> the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.
>
> “So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
> chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
> really.
>
> “I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front
> of me.
>
> “I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner,
> I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”
>
> Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until
> he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”.
>
> “I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any
> pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of that
> first night.
>
> “When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘fuck, this
> is really bad’.”
>
> He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were
> wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a
> grueling climb.
>

That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.

> I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper
> and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times
> on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong
> line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat,
> and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding
> sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty
> slough on it.
>

Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it would
have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of impact into the car.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2018 5:23 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
>>
>> You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
>> champ and pro-continental cyclist.
>
>
> In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
> rider instinct I am rather sure I would.

Wow.

--
- Frank Krygowski