List of stores that allow bikes inside?

[Joerg]

Most of us know that situation. You want to run a shopping errand by
bicycle and then have that iffy feeling when inside, about whether your
bike will still be there in 10 minutes or whether stuff like lights got
ripped off. Or got vandalized.

Lowe's, Home Depot and even the loal ACE Hardware let me roll the bike
into the store and all through the store. Walmart didn't even allow it
in the pickup area (which is why I no longer use Walmart for
ship-to-store). This is pretty funny:

https://consumerist.com/2008/07/27/disagree-with-walmarts-bike-policy-take-off-your-clothes-in-protest/

Is there a list or something similar about US store chains that allow
bicycles inside? Or stories about experiences people had?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

If my bike isn't welcome, I'll take my business elsewhere.

I was refused service on my bike trying to deposit a
paycheck at a bank drive-up in 1971. Closed my account and
never went back. Most businesses respond well to "It's OK -
I'm a customer".

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:e5qc1k...@mid.individual.net...

> Most of us know that situation. You want to run a shopping errand by
> bicycle and then have that iffy feeling when inside, about whether your
> bike will still be there in 10 minutes or whether stuff like lights got
> ripped off. Or got vandalized.

Lock it or lose it - simples.

Many shops; wheeling a bicycle around would be a hazard to other customers.

Taking any detachable lights off and putting them in your pocket is less
inconvenient than getting home in the dark without them.

It isn't the shops problem to look after your bike - they're too busy trying
to stop the same bunch of scrotes shoplifting half their stock.

[sms]

I ride one of my folding bikes and stick it in the shopping cart.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

depends on surrounding demographics

In Fla the spectrum varies from Visiting Aliens to psycho scum .....no bikes.

also Homeland security rules

outside liability as above annnnnd no plates. No plate video.

seriously how shop with bike ?

[Doug Landau]

Last time I rode the coast I came out of a BBQ place in San Luis Obispo 1/2 hour after closing time, at 10pm. Stuffed. I rode circles around town for a goddam hour and a half looking for a place that was open and didn't stop me as I entered with my bike. I was getting desperate. I think it was the S.L.O Natural Foods Co-op where the kids at the register simply smiled at me.

[Doug Landau]

> In Fla the spectrum varies from Visiting Aliens to psycho scum .....no bikes.
>
> also Homeland security rules

Homeland security -sucks-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV7Ha3VDbzE

[Joerg]

Not going to do it, then I'll shun that shop or go by car if no
alternative. If the crook brings a set of Allen wrenches, and the "pros"
do, removing the rear shock takes less than two minutes. Without it the
ride is over and you are out $300.

[Joerg]

Yeah, I don't understand why they complain. After all a bike occupies
less real estate than a shopping cart. Of course, I wouldn't enter a
shop with my bike during rush hour where it's really busy.

At bars and restaurants they occasionally make me park the bike outside.
It's ok if I can see it but if not I am either persistent or leave right
away (usually for good).

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-07 16:17, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> depends on surrounding demographics
>
> In Fla the spectrum varies from Visiting Aliens to psycho scum .....no bikes.
>
> also Homeland security rules
>
> outside liability as above annnnnd no plates. No plate video.
>

I could mount a plate below my tail light panel :-)

> seriously how shop with bike ?
>

Easy: I put one of they shopping baskets on the luggage rack and strap
it down with a bungee cord.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 12:40:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

This place in Portland lets you bring your bike inside: http://www.bermstyle.com/portlands-indoor-mecca-of-bikes-the-lumberyard-bike-park/

Some a-hole at the local A-Boy hardware store yelled at me about bringing my bike inside. Then someone yelled at him for yelling at me, and now I roll my bike in and park unmolested. The store is over-priced and in competition with the big-box stores, and I buy a lot of stuff there that I could buy elsewhere (and some not), so they're playing nice. The guy who yelled at me is still a manager there and scowls when I bring my bike in, but I've learned to live with it. It's right on the way home and very convenient.

Fundamentally, Lowes and Home Depot suck unless you're getting super-mundane hardware. I wanted a simple paint cone-filter, so I could shoot some old paint, and all they had was cheese cloth. http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-100-60-to-70-mesh-paint-strainers-91376.html

I went to Lowes for a wall-mount utility faucet, and they didn't have one. The sales guy even joked about their woeful stock and send me down the road to another store -- where I was headed anyway. I only got to Lowes or Home Depot for mundane bulk stuff.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 12:40:47 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Can't you just chain the bike to a lamp post?
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

USE A KICK STAND ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

THE IGNORANCE OF DRAGGIG A BIKE INTO A RETAIL store is on the same level as not walking it across that Boston square

[W. Wesley Groleau]

Brompton has four steps for folding. Do the first three, and the bike
IS my shopping cart.

Completely folded, I've carried it into many stores and restaurants.

--
Wes Groleau

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Wes ? wipe dog shit off tires before the entray ?

[AMuzi]

Leave my actual beloved bicycle outside all alone?
You're kidding, right?

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

ALDI allows me to walk the bike inside --so far. It's not official.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Joerg:

>Not going to do it, then I'll shun that shop or go by car if no
>alternative. If the crook brings a set of Allen wrenches, and the "pros"
>do, removing the rear shock takes less than two minutes. Without it the
>ride is over and you are out $300.

Some years back I rode my POS bike (1980's StumpJumper lovingly painted
red with Pep Boy's finest spray can paint) into Center City Philadelphia
for a doctor's appointment.

This bike is *rough*... as in "Who on earth would want to steal it."

Came out of the docs, unchained the bike, started to ride away and....
"No rear brake!".....

Apparently some retard had been in the process of stripping the bike and
been interrupted for some reason.

Now I keep noticing bare bike frames locked to bike racks, parking
meters, signs...and so-forth.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Joerg]

Some thieves are absolutely brazen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dz0Za5-wOM

[Joerg]

Then you have to take off:

1. The panniers including toolkit (heavy)
2. Lights
3. Speedometer
4. Battery (heavy)
5. Rear shock
6. Et cetera.

Else much of that may be missing when you come back.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 08:11:36 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Some thieves are absolutely brazen:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dz0Za5-wOM

Angle grinders are slow. The thief needs a die grinder:
"Die Grinder versus Locks"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYVmRNzGLc> (7:13)

Locally, I rarely see bicycles inside stores. It has nothing to do
with store policy, but rather because all the local stores place
kiosks and displays in the aisles. It is quite difficult to maneuver
a bicycle through the obstacle course in the aisles. Even the
checkout area is cluttered with impulse item displays. Long ago, I
asked the owner of a local ACE hardware store about store policy
concerning bicycles inside his store. He mumbled something about his
insurance policy prohibiting the practice because kids would tend to
ride their bicycles in the store instead of walking them. We were
interrupted, so I didn't get any details. It's possible that things
may have changed because the same store is currently allowing (or
tolerating) dogs on leashes.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

Perhaps folding handlebars:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciGJ4iQhXE>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISWQAR3aw8o>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=folding+handlebars&tbm=isch>
and folding pedals:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
will help squeeze the bicycle through the store aisles.

[AMuzi]

On 10/8/2016 12:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 08:11:36 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Some thieves are absolutely brazen:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dz0Za5-wOM
>
> Angle grinders are slow. The thief needs a die grinder:
> "Die Grinder versus Locks"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYVmRNzGLc> (7:13)
>
> Locally, I rarely see bicycles inside stores. It has nothing to do
> with store policy, but rather because all the local stores place
> kiosks and displays in the aisles. It is quite difficult to maneuver
> a bicycle through the obstacle course in the aisles. Even the
> checkout area is cluttered with impulse item displays. Long ago, I
> asked the owner of a local ACE hardware store about store policy
> concerning bicycles inside his store. He mumbled something about his
> insurance policy prohibiting the practice because kids would tend to
> ride their bicycles in the store instead of walking them. We were
> interrupted, so I didn't get any details. It's possible that things
> may have changed because the same store is currently allowing (or
> tolerating) dogs on leashes.
>

my bicycle doesn't poop on the floor.

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-08 11:20, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/8/2016 12:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 08:11:36 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Some thieves are absolutely brazen:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dz0Za5-wOM
>>
>> Angle grinders are slow. The thief needs a die grinder:
>> "Die Grinder versus Locks"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYVmRNzGLc> (7:13)
>>
>> Locally, I rarely see bicycles inside stores. It has nothing to do
>> with store policy, but rather because all the local stores place
>> kiosks and displays in the aisles. It is quite difficult to maneuver
>> a bicycle through the obstacle course in the aisles. Even the
>> checkout area is cluttered with impulse item displays.

In most of our stores the aisles and check-out lanes are wide enough.
10ft or more. Of course, I would not squeeze my bike through there at
5:30pm when the store is very full. I never go during those times anyhow.


>> ... Long ago, I

>> asked the owner of a local ACE hardware store about store policy
>> concerning bicycles inside his store. He mumbled something about his
>> insurance policy prohibiting the practice because kids would tend to
>> ride their bicycles in the store instead of walking them. We were
>> interrupted, so I didn't get any details. It's possible that things
>> may have changed because the same store is currently allowing (or
>> tolerating) dogs on leashes.
>>
>

If we really want to get people to use bikes this problem needs to be
thought through and solved. Nobody in their right mind would leave an
expensive Felt or Specialized chained up in front of a mall or even
supermarket. So people use their cars.

> my bicycle doesn't poop on the floor.
>

But my MTB sometimes does. It poops mud clumps. I wouldn't dare roll
that through a store though unless it's all dried and doesn't look too
dirty (usually does though).

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-08-2016 12:14, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Locally, I rarely see bicycles inside stores. It has nothing to do
> with store policy, but rather because all the local stores place
> kiosks and displays in the aisles. It is quite difficult to maneuver
> a bicycle through the obstacle course in the aisles. Even the

If a shopping cart can maneuver, so can a bicycle with a person walking
beside it. Or a folder with a person pushing it. When I had a
full-size non-folder, I would chain frame and both wheels if the parking
lot had video. If not, I would take it in and either hang on to it or
get staff to show me a reasonably safe place to put it.

Down here in Dallas, I have done the fold-into-shopping-cart approach
but at two different stores, I have seen chained up bikes with grossly
bent wheels. Thieves don't like being thwarted?

--
Wes Groleau

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-08-2016 10:14, Joerg wrote:
> Then you have to take off:
>
> 1. The panniers including toolkit (heavy)

My panniers aren't heavy until I come OUT of the store.

> 2. Lights

My lights cost a total of $25. Front, I unhook the rubber band and put
it in my pocket. Read, if they want it badly enough, they have to use
an Allen wrench to remove it and they have to get the rear wheel out of
the way.

> 3. Speedometer

On my phone, which goes from handlebars to pocket when I park.

> 4. Battery (heavy)

???

> 5. Rear shock

Never had one, and haven't needed one even in the mountains of Spain and
Peru. (Surprisingly, the roughest trail I've been on is in the middle
of Dallas, Texas!)

> 6. Et cetera.
>
> Else much of that may be missing when you come back.


--

Wes Groleau

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:e5qqn1...@mid.individual.net...

My whole bike isn't worth that - some passers by wisecrack that the chain
I'm locking it with is worth more.

If you buy shiny things - attracting magpies is the natural order of things.

[Joerg]

The routes I travel to places such as Placerville are not conducive to
riding without full suspension. At least not for folks with lower back
issues. There are no real cyclable alternatives. The only reasonable
alternative would to use the car.

I'll have to do a similar route west next week. On a hardtail that is in
some parts absolutely bone-jarring. Plus some of the cargo may be toast
afterwards.

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-08 11:48, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
> On 10-08-2016 10:14, Joerg wrote:
>> Then you have to take off:
>>
>> 1. The panniers including toolkit (heavy)
>
> My panniers aren't heavy until I come OUT of the store.
>

In this area one should not be traveling without a reasonably complete
and thus heavy tool set. Else there is a chance of having to hoof it
home for 15mi or more. It's also not cool to have to schlepp the
purchased items just bought at the brewing supply place into the next store.

>> 2. Lights
>
> My lights cost a total of $25. Front, I unhook the rubber band and put
> it in my pocket. Read, if they want it badly enough, they have to use
> an Allen wrench to remove it and they have to get the rear wheel out of
> the way.
>

I've got powerful lights with Cree XM-L in there. You can only run those
with a fat central battery. So you'd have to untangle the wires and snip
all the lacing cord. Else thieves will simly snip the cable and take the
light itself.

>> 3. Speedometer
>
> On my phone, which goes from handlebars to pocket when I park.
>

I am old-fashiond. This is my cell phone:

http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/phones/4220-specs/Nokia-2115--2115i--2116.jpg


>> 4. Battery (heavy)
>
> ???
>

60 watt-hours Li-Ion. Big.

>> 5. Rear shock
>
> Never had one, and haven't needed one even in the mountains of Spain and
> Peru. (Surprisingly, the roughest trail I've been on is in the middle
> of Dallas, Texas!)
>

Try to ride the singletrack from here to Placerville or the one to
Latrobe with a HT bike. Can be done but not if you have lower back
issues like I do. It definitely will be uncomfortable.

[...]

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/8/2016 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-10-08 11:48, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
>> On 10-08-2016 10:14, Joerg wrote:
>>> Then you have to take off:
>>>
>>> 1. The panniers including toolkit (heavy)
>>
>> My panniers aren't heavy until I come OUT of the store.
>>
>
> In this area one should not be traveling without a reasonably complete
> and thus heavy tool set. Else there is a chance of having to hoof it
> home for 15mi or more. It's also not cool to have to schlepp the
> purchased items just bought at the brewing supply place into the next
> store.
>
>
>>> 2. Lights
>>
>> My lights cost a total of $25. Front, I unhook the rubber band and put
>> it in my pocket. Read, if they want it badly enough, they have to use
>> an Allen wrench to remove it and they have to get the rear wheel out of
>> the way.
>>
>
> I've got powerful lights with Cree XM-L in there. You can only run those
> with a fat central battery. So you'd have to untangle the wires and snip
> all the lacing cord. Else thieves will simly snip the cable and take the

> light itself. ...

Joerg, I get the impression you live in hell.

I'll be heading to the grocery store pretty soon. I'll leave my bike
parked just outside the door, in a convenient little alcove. I'll
squeeze the front brake lever and insert a little wedge thing that keeps
the brake applied, but I won't otherwise lock it.

I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
pump, etc. etc. etc.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

In Placerville you would likely try that exactly once. It is a place I
feel absolutely safe but they have attracted a lot of the wrong crowd.
Not much hard crime but lots of substance abuse and with that comes the
need to make some money, fast. In order to be able to buy the next fix.
If a stolen $300 bicycle part such as a rear shock only fetches $15 at
the "dealer" they are ok with that as long as that adds enough to buy
the next round of whatever they want to pump into their bodies.

> I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
> stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
> will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
> taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
> pump, etc. etc. etc.
>

In some neighborhoods yes. In others, no.

Once when I had a whole bike stolen it was amazing how quick this goes.
Despite a hefty chain with industrial strength padlock and me being back
in very few minutes the bike was ... gone. It was only a regular
department store road bike yet they took it.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Mine does. Around the local forest, we have about 2.5 dogs per
person. Probably about the same with cats. I can't walk to my car
anywhere without dodging the land mines. When I ride the dirt roads,
my bicycle tires get clogged with animal droppings. The first step to
working on my bicycles or taking them indoors is cleaning off the
tires with a stiff bristle brush. Fortunately, when I ride on
pavement, I usually have slick tires on my wheels, which are much
easier to clean.

Incidentally, the problem with dogs going in places where they really
should be excluded was caused by some people claiming their dogs are
"emotional support dog" or "therapy dogs". They allegedly require
these dogs to be with them everywhere or they might go on a rampage
and destroy the store or something. Few of these dogs are genuine
which requires the same documentation as other service dogs.
Unfortunately, all that's needed is a simple registration with one of
several therapy dog organizations, and the dog is legal:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapy_dog>
In other words, the owners are lying. I've run into the problem while
hiking on trails in the local regional and state parks. Dogs are
specifically banned from the trails because their scent scares the
wildlife away. I've confronted dog owners walking these trails with
their dogs, explained the problem, but they persist. Most are nearby
residents. I suspect they also drag their dogs with them to stores
and lie when asked for documentation.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:07:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
>stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
>will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
>taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
>pump, etc. etc. etc.

I've lost one bicycle thanks to me forgetting to lock it and a few odd
parts and pieces to some clever kid with a wrench. Others are not so
fortunate. If you want to see the latest in bicycles, just visit the
local homeless shelter or encampment, which feature the latest in
stolen bicycles. The problem is bad enough that we have our own
stolen bicycle Facebook page:
<https://www.facebook.com/StolenBikesOfSantaCruz/>
If you ever visit Santa Cruz, be sure to bring a good bike lock.

When I was doing service calls on my bicyle, I had to remove almost
everything from the bicycle at every stop. It evolved into throwing
everything into a packpack and extracting as needed. That was
tolerable for service calls, but if I had to visit a store, they
usually proclaimed that they did not allow backpacks. I wasn't
thrilled with leaving my tools at the cash register. I did it a few
times, but soon gave up, deciding that it was too risky.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/8/2016 4:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:07:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
>> stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
>> will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
>> taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
>> pump, etc. etc. etc.
>
> I've lost one bicycle thanks to me forgetting to lock it and a few odd
> parts and pieces to some clever kid with a wrench. Others are not so
> fortunate. If you want to see the latest in bicycles, just visit the
> local homeless shelter or encampment, which feature the latest in
> stolen bicycles. The problem is bad enough that we have our own
> stolen bicycle Facebook page:
> <https://www.facebook.com/StolenBikesOfSantaCruz/>
> If you ever visit Santa Cruz, be sure to bring a good bike lock.

I think I benefit from being:

A) in a suburb noted for its very low crime rate

B) in an area where utility biking is pretty unusual and

C) where I'm well known as a guy who does lots of volunteer work for the
village and

D) who bikes everywhere.

I'm just guessing, but I think if someone did steal one of my bikes, it
would be quickly recognized by cops and others as soon as it hit the
streets. (Knocking wood.)

BTW, as predicted, my bike was perfectly fine when I came out of the
grocery.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-08-2016 15:24, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Mine does. Around the local forest, we have about 2.5 dogs per
> person. Probably about the same with cats. I can't walk to my car
> anywhere without dodging the land mines. When I ride the dirt roads,
> my bicycle tires get clogged with animal droppings. The first step to

Here, Dallas, I have not taken the bike in the wooded paths much.
Mostly walking. But I have seen plenty of animal droppings and have
neither stepped on nor run over any. I've seen none on pavement, which
is where most of my biking is done.

But in Spain, I did a lot of unpaved paths, and never saw animal
droppings, though I did see a dog on the trail at least once a week.
(Daily in the villages, but they didn't roam.)

In Peru, half the regular streets were unpaved, and there were loose
dogs on every block. But apparently the residents cleaned up any
droppings they would see.

Summary: never any animal droppings on my bike. Yet. And never a
complaint from any retail staff about taking in the folder or the full-size.

--
Wes Groleau

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

YOUR BICYCLE is covered with a thick layers of dog bird n human excrement, staph colonies, bubonic plague, cow spongiform, meningitis....polio.... remember the Recumbent Chronicles ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

so you drive the Kubelwagen over ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

everyone in Ohio is stoned on opioids

stealing a bike is beyond them

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 18:19:24 -0500, "W. Wesley Groleau"
<Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote:

>On 10-08-2016 15:24, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Mine does. Around the local forest, we have about 2.5 dogs per
>> person. Probably about the same with cats. I can't walk to my car
>> anywhere without dodging the land mines. When I ride the dirt roads,
>> my bicycle tires get clogged with animal droppings. The first step to

>Here, Dallas, I have not taken the bike in the wooded paths much.
>Mostly walking. But I have seen plenty of animal droppings and have
>neither stepped on nor run over any. I've seen none on pavement, which
>is where most of my biking is done.

Dogs and cats seem to prefer leaving their droppings on soft ground.
They usually sniff around the landing zone, and scratch the area with
their paws, before dropping their load. In addition, cats like to
bury the evidence. Except for the homeless human creatures, that like
to take dump on my office doorstep, I don't see any droppings on
concrete or asphalt.

The dogs that run loose in the forest are usually fairly discrete
about where they unload. Not so with the dogs on leash, where the
owner limits their movements to within a few feet of the road. Lacking
much choice, the dogs leave their calling cards in front of my car
door, in front of the stairs to my house, and most any other place
where I might have walked and loosened the dirt.

>Summary: never any animal droppings on my bike.

Lots of questions on how to remove dog droppings from bicycle tires:
<https://www.google.com/#q=removing+dog+droppings+from+bicycle+tire>
There's even a video:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCx7wBYYAWA>
Offhand, it would seem to be a common problem.

>Yet. And never a
>complaint from any retail staff about taking in the folder or the full-size.

That might be because todays version of a store clerk usually has
instructions not to get into confrontations with customers. We had a
bad situation where one large store had a reputation for doing
absolutely nothing is an employee sees someone shoplifting. The store
management decided that it was cheaper to tolerate the shrinkage, than
to deal with the theft problem. That ended when the mayor saw what
was happening and threatened to revoke their business license if they
didn't clean up their act. I suspect that in some stores, it would be
possible to do almost anything, and not have an employee complain.

[Frank Krygowski]

I just remembered: Some years back, I was teaching small cycling classes
on weekends, using the Village Council meeting room in Village Hall. Of
course, I'd gotten formal permission to use the space, and of course, I
had my bike in there.

One Saturday during class, a certain ... um, uppity councilwoman came in
and saw my bike leaning against the wall. She asked whose bike it was.
When I responded, she asked "Can you _please_ get it off the carpet??"

I thought: Those bike tires are as clean as your shoes, the ones that
just walked across the parking lot. But I just raised my eyebrows and
moved the bike about a foot to clear the carpet.

Nowadays, I'm on a village committee that meets at least once a month.
I always carry my bike into that same meeting room, and I've never heard
a word about it. Well, except for "Nice bike!"

As someone once said, it's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask
permission.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

:-) Perhaps :-)

Every subway station and bus stop here has bikes chained up near it.
In fact the city installs bike racks in these places as a public
service. I suppose it is the difference between places where bicycles
are considered a basic transportation device and other places.

In Singapore I counted over a hundred bicycles parked at the Lavender
Street MRT station :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"W. Wesley Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote in
news:ntbute$8ga$1...@dont-email.me:

Here in Ottawa, it's unusual to see a mammalian turd on a path, paved or
otherwise. Bird droppings are another matter: Ducks Unlimited and
organisations of their ilk have effectively campaigned for decades for
waterfowl habitat protection. During my boyhood here in the '60s and '70s,
one rarely saw wild waterfowl in the city. Since then, there has been such
a rebound in waterfowl populations that there are year-round resident
flocks of Canada geese, mallards and black ducks. The ducks aren't too
bad, but the geese are everywhere in the parks leaving green poo in their
wake.

Someone re-introduced wild turkeys to Ontario about 30 years ago. They are
now in residence in some neighbourhoods where there are trees in which
they can roost, but they stay clear of multi-use paths.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[AMuzi]

On 10/8/2016 3:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:07:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
>> stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
>> will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
>> taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
>> pump, etc. etc. etc.
>
> I've lost one bicycle thanks to me forgetting to lock it and a few odd
> parts and pieces to some clever kid with a wrench. Others are not so
> fortunate. If you want to see the latest in bicycles, just visit the
> local homeless shelter or encampment, which feature the latest in
> stolen bicycles. The problem is bad enough that we have our own
> stolen bicycle Facebook page:
> <https://www.facebook.com/StolenBikesOfSantaCruz/>
> If you ever visit Santa Cruz, be sure to bring a good bike lock.
>
> When I was doing service calls on my bicyle, I had to remove almost
> everything from the bicycle at every stop. It evolved into throwing
> everything into a packpack and extracting as needed. That was
> tolerable for service calls, but if I had to visit a store, they
> usually proclaimed that they did not allow backpacks. I wasn't
> thrilled with leaving my tools at the cash register. I did it a few
> times, but soon gave up, deciding that it was too risky.
>
>

On a visit to a crime-infested left coast city, our customer
stopped at an LBS where the owner, an old friend of ours,
noticed my shop bottle and sticker on his bike. He suggested
the rider leave his bike in the store while walking the
neighborhood, 'there's no lock enough for that sort of
bicycle here'.

[AMuzi]

No mention of your own Florida criminal classes? Like it's
any different in your neighborhood Gene.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

If we accept or tolerate ....think INS standards for in house liability ... bike in limitations following statistics for prop damages, maiming old women, annoying Mr Bigg, and off course no one else wants your bike in there OH here's Andy with his bicycle OH JOY ...

We get into a lotta city-state differences but controlled by the preceeding.

Damages outside may or not be different than damages inside. IF the situation is extreme so bringing the bike in is absolute...maybe not riding there is an answer ?

But this is not the in house responsibility, protecting your bike. Your bike is part of the problem. Who can tell ?

On the outer fringes of where I base, theft squads park in the lot waiting for single spd Kestrels. Inside the core goon squads patrol what they perceive in non Reich behavior.

Yawl asking for statutory road rights then forcing your bike Ness on shoppers...stupid.

[Frank Krygowski]

'On 10/9/2016 9:56 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> On a visit to a crime-infested left coast city, our customer stopped at
> an LBS where the owner, an old friend of ours, noticed my shop bottle
> and sticker on his bike. He suggested the rider leave his bike in the
> store while walking the neighborhood, 'there's no lock enough for that
> sort of bicycle here'.

Of course, when I park my bike, I do try to evaluate the risk and choose
my strategy accordingly. But near home or on tour, I never carry more
than a 1/4" diameter cable. If I feel that theft risk is higher than
normal, I'll either park the bike completely out of sight (e.g. in gas
meter access bays outside our local mall), or I'll park it where I can
see it as I do my business (e.g. at a restaurant).

Traveling overseas, where I don't know the areas and where the
consequences of loss are greater, I've taken a much thicker Kryptonite
cable lock. It's about half an inch thick and tightly coiled. Trouble
is, unwinding it and threading it through two bikes feels like wrestling
an anaconda.

Maybe we can campaign for an addition to Google Maps: A layer that
color-codes your location with "bike theft risk" levels, like a
temperature map.

"Hey, look. If we lock the bikes here, we're in a red zone; but behind
that building it's pure blue - lots of bikes parked but never a bike
stolen. Let's go there!




--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-08 16:58, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 12:36:19 PM UTC-6, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-10-08 11:20, AMuzi wrote:

[...]

>>> my bicycle doesn't poop on the floor.
>>>
>>
>> But my MTB sometimes does. It poops mud clumps. I wouldn't dare roll
>> that through a store though unless it's all dried and doesn't look too
>> dirty (usually does though).
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> so you drive the Kubelwagen over ?
>

No, an all terrain vehicle from the Japanese Empire :-)

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-08 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/8/2016 4:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:07:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
>>> stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
>>> will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
>>> taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
>>> pump, etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> I've lost one bicycle thanks to me forgetting to lock it and a few odd
>> parts and pieces to some clever kid with a wrench. Others are not so
>> fortunate. If you want to see the latest in bicycles, just visit the
>> local homeless shelter or encampment, which feature the latest in
>> stolen bicycles. The problem is bad enough that we have our own
>> stolen bicycle Facebook page:
>> <https://www.facebook.com/StolenBikesOfSantaCruz/>
>> If you ever visit Santa Cruz, be sure to bring a good bike lock.
>
> I think I benefit from being:
>
> A) in a suburb noted for its very low crime rate
>

That typically ends somewhere and then you get into other areas.

> B) in an area where utility biking is pretty unusual and
>
> C) where I'm well known as a guy who does lots of volunteer work for the
> village and
>
> D) who bikes everywhere.
>

Really everywhere? And that never gets you into neighborhoods that are
more dicey? That's the problem here. Our village is fine. 20mi farther,
sometimes no so much.

> I'm just guessing, but I think if someone did steal one of my bikes, it
> would be quickly recognized by cops and others as soon as it hit the
> streets. (Knocking wood.)
>
> BTW, as predicted, my bike was perfectly fine when I came out of the
> grocery.
>

So were mine usually. Until one fine day ...

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 08:56:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On a visit to a crime-infested left coast city, our customer
>stopped at an LBS where the owner, an old friend of ours,
>noticed my shop bottle and sticker on his bike. He suggested
>the rider leave his bike in the store while walking the
>neighborhood, 'there's no lock enough for that sort of
>bicycle here'.

Yeah, that's a problem. It's difficult to lock up a water bottle.
Perhaps a lower quality or cheaper water bottle might reduce the
chance of water bottle theft. I mostly use a disposable water bottle.
<http://sustainability.uchicago.edu/resources/news/ask_ignacio_water_bottle_amnesia/>
At one time, I had a small collection of reusable bicycle water
bottles, mostly from bicycle shops and manufactueres that had gone out
of business.

Incidentally, I'm taking up lock-sport (recreational lock picking) as
a hobby:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locksport>
While using a die grinder or bolt cutters is considered rather
unsporting, I'm amazed at the low quality of the locks I'm finding. I
can see your friends point about "there's no lock enough...". Perhaps
get a better lock and remove the water bottle and sticker?

[Frank Krygowski]

<sigh> Biking home from work at the city-center university, I had
colleagues who told me "I'm afraid to drive home. I don't even stop for
red lights at night." Oh, it's terribly dangerous! But in decades of
such riding, I never had a problem in the "bad neighborhoods."

There are neighborhoods that are bad, no question. But they're bad
mostly in evenings and at night, if you're off on the smaller streets. I
don't ride those very often, but even there I've had no problems. I've
had guys dressed like gang members who said I was cool for riding. I've
had pre-teen and teen kids race me for fun.

I can recall only two encounters that were really hostile. 1) One punk
turned around and tried to chase me down after I yelled at him for
biking on the wrong side of the road, directly at me. I let him get
within about 15 feet then easily pulled away from him. After about the
third try he gave up. 2) At a red light, after I told a driver his
close pass was rude, he got out of the car and acted like he was going
to charge at me. I stood there astride my bike and called his bluff,
then told his kids not to grow up as foolish as their dad.

And although years apart, both those encounters were within 1/4 mile of
each other, on a residential collector street in a "nice neighborhood."

Way back in the 1980s, when my son and I were riding from New Jersey to
Ohio, we passed through some very black neighborhoods in Philly. Some
tough looking teens yelled "Hey whitey! What are you doing here?" and it
wasn't friendly. We just kept riding and had no other problems.

>> I'm just guessing, but I think if someone did steal one of my bikes, it
>> would be quickly recognized by cops and others as soon as it hit the
>> streets. (Knocking wood.)
>>
>> BTW, as predicted, my bike was perfectly fine when I came out of the
>> grocery.
>>
>
> So were mine usually. Until one fine day ...

Yeah, yeah. We know. Your life is just one disaster after another.

All it takes is reasonable sense and reasonable precautions. Unless you
really do live in hell - in which case you should move.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 11:27:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Maybe we can campaign for an addition to Google Maps: A layer that
>color-codes your location with "bike theft risk" levels, like a
>temperature map.
>
>"Hey, look. If we lock the bikes here, we're in a red zone; but behind
>that building it's pure blue - lots of bikes parked but never a bike
>stolen. Let's go there!

The Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz subscribes to a "crime map" that
could be used for the purpose:
<http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/departments/police/crime-statistics/crime-maps>
<https://www.crimereports.com/agency/santacruzpd>
If you click on the "Filter" button near the upper left, you can limit
the display to the available choices. However, bicycle theft is not
currently one of the choices. I believe it was suggested to the
CrimeReport people, but nothing happened. Maybe we'll try again.

[Duane]

I can attest to the goose issue. Around Long Sault Parkway in Cornwall,
part of the Waterfront Trail, you go through some bird sanctuaries. That
goose stuff is pretty slippery.

Here in Quebec it's more horses that you have to worry about when out on
the rural roads.

--
duane

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-09-2016 03:14, John B. wrote:
> Every subway station and bus stop here has bikes chained up near it.
> In fact the city installs bike racks in these places as a public
> service. I suppose it is the difference between places where bicycles
> are considered a basic transportation device and other places.

In Europe, trains (local and interurban) have space for bicycles.
Cities in USA are starting to do that on subways. Many U.S city buses
have had a front bike rack for years. Only holds two bikes, but then
it's usually empty.

--
Wes Groleau

[sms]

On 10/8/2016 1:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 16:07:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I admit, there was (exactly) one time maybe 20 years ago that some kid
>> stole my cyclometer. But I'm confident that when I come out, the bike
>> will be there along with the panniers, the dynamo hub, the headlight and
>> taillight, the handlebar bag, the very few tools inside the bag, the
>> pump, etc. etc. etc.
>
> I've lost one bicycle thanks to me forgetting to lock it and a few odd
> parts and pieces to some clever kid with a wrench. Others are not so
> fortunate. If you want to see the latest in bicycles, just visit the
> local homeless shelter or encampment, which feature the latest in
> stolen bicycles. The problem is bad enough that we have our own
> stolen bicycle Facebook page:
> <https://www.facebook.com/StolenBikesOfSantaCruz/>
> If you ever visit Santa Cruz, be sure to bring a good bike lock.
>
> When I was doing service calls on my bicyle, I had to remove almost
> everything from the bicycle at every stop. It evolved into throwing
> everything into a packpack and extracting as needed. That was
> tolerable for service calls, but if I had to visit a store, they
> usually proclaimed that they did not allow backpacks. I wasn't
> thrilled with leaving my tools at the cash register. I did it a few
> times, but soon gave up, deciding that it was too risky.

They stole half or my daughter's Mirrycle mirror. I would not lock a
bicycle up in many parts of Santa Cruz since the parts and accessories
would quickly disappear. Bike theft on campus is pretty low though. I
guess it's too far and isolated for a lot of thieves.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

yeah yeah there's gross debris but the situation is a constant rainfall of that....bird dropping, dead insects n animals mixing with general toxic road debris...rubber asphalt concrete dust crap falling from trucks.

estimates range into a foot/yr deep n beyond if the stuff lay there.

This fosters a wide spectrum bacterial culture the bike flows theu esp the recumbent where at the recumbantsphere, rider constantly breathes toxic soup.

as for SMS woes well that's your environment. Know Clarkes' people in 'Twilight'

that is your SF race 2 centuries from now.

and they're getting away !

same deal in Fla different genetics.

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-09 07:52, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> If we accept or tolerate ....think INS standards for in house
> liability ... bike in limitations following statistics for prop
> damages, maiming old women, annoying Mr Bigg, and off course no one
> else wants your bike in there OH here's Andy with his bicycle OH JOY
> ...
>
> We get into a lotta city-state differences but controlled by the
> preceeding.
>
> Damages outside may or not be different than damages inside. IF the
> situation is extreme so bringing the bike in is absolute...maybe not
> riding there is an answer ?
>

That's how people like me "solve" that. They use the car. Unless a
competitor with similar offers has a better bicycle policy.

> But this is not the in house responsibility, protecting your bike.

When patrons start favoring the competition, it is. Old American saying:
If you don't take care of your customers, somebody else will.

> Your bike is part of the problem. Who can tell ?
>
> On the outer fringes of where I base, theft squads park in the lot
> waiting for single spd Kestrels. Inside the core goon squads patrol
> what they perceive in non Reich behavior.
>
> Yawl asking for statutory road rights then forcing your bike Ness on
> shoppers...stupid.
>

Nonsense. We have to think outside the box. If bikes can't be taken in
(and considering those huge shopping carts I see no sense in such bans)
the store could, for example, offer fenced-in bike parking _with_ closed
circuit TV that is displayed here and there inside the store. So you can
leave your cart for a moment and dash out if some dude wants to mess
with your bike. Systems like that can be had for under $500. The
increase in sales volume will most likely make up for that in less than
a month.

For example, I'd be buying stuff at Trader Joe's in Folsom on every
other ride into the valley because it's only a mile or two of detour,
peanuts. But no safe bike parking and bikes can't be seen from inside.
So I do not go there.

Same with brewpubs where I leave a substantial chunk of money for
growler fills and a pint "while waiting". Only at pubs where I can
either park my bike inside their patio and sit there or where they
provide a place so it can be watched from a barstool. If they don't ->
zero Dollars from me. Simple.

[Radey Shouman]

Last year I took my car in for some exhaust work, with the bike in back
so I didn't have to hang around. I took the bike out and locked it to
the post of the building sign in front, near the road, while I talked
with the shop guy. I didn't see any other place to lock it, and it
didn't seem to be doing any harm.

A few minutes later the building landlord came out, all excited, wanting
to know which vandal had defaced his sign and where was the bolt
cutters, anyway?. If he had been the one I was doing business with I
would have taken it elsewhere, but the shop guy was apologetic, and
suggested I put the bike inside.

As it happened they were quick, and I never had the chance to ride
anywhere.


--

[Sir Ridesalot]

Yet even more utter nonsense! Can't you imaging the chaos if a large number of shoppers were wheeling their bicycles around inside stores? Unlike shopping carts most bicycles are not stable when left unattended especially when most bicyclists abhor a kickstand.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Why are you not able to hold your bike with one hand and shop with the
other? I never have a problem with that.

Lowe's and Home Depot offer plenty of pillars, shelf sides and whatnot
to park a bike for a minute yet I never needed that. The one time where
I needed to show somthing intricate to an employee at ACE Hardware it
took me about one second to spot a good place to lean my road bike
against. Without knocking over a pyramid of bean cans.

What exaclty is the problem?

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-11-2016 15:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> Yet even more utter nonsense! Can't you imaging the chaos if a large number of shoppers were wheeling their bicycles around inside stores? Unlike shopping carts most bicycles are not stable when left unattended especially when most bicyclists abhor a kickstand.

Brompton has no kickstand, stands well on the folded backwheel, and IS a
shopping cart when ¾ folded.

If we could get a large number of shoppers to ride bikes, it would be a
good thing whether or not they take them into the store.

--
Wes Groleau

[Sir Ridesalot]

In all my years of bicycling I have NEVER seen any folding bicycle owned by a customer who'd leftt he bike near a store nor have I seen one in a store. Let's face it, Joerg is NOT talking about folding bicycles but about full-size bicycles. How'd you like to try doing grocery shopping in a store where a large number of customers are trying to shop whilst holding a bicycvle upright? Okay, so they lean the bike against a shelf and then when they go to movethe bike the handlebar catches on something and sends it crashing to the floor. Gadzooks man, it's tricky enough trying to get around shoppers with shopping carts. Fulkl size bicycles in stores would result in all sorts of problems. Carry a decent lock and keep the bike locked outside. Good grief, even malls prohibit bicycles inside.

Cheers

[Doug Landau]

Are you posting from a pub on the way home or something?

[AMuzi]

If, somewhere in a distant future, cyclists with bicycles in
a grocery store were more than a rare anomaly, the aisles
would be made wider (not unlike business accommodations for
auto drivers; drive-up windows, parking lots and such).

p.s. I led a group ride on New Year's Day 1986 right through
a large shopping mall. Not one cyclist was challenged nor
did we interfere with the pedestrians.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-11-2016 17:24, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> In all my years of bicycling I have NEVER seen
> any folding bicycle owned by a customer who'd
> leftt he bike near a store nor have I seen one
> in a store. Let's face it, Joerg is NOT talking
> about folding bicycles but about full-size bicycles.
> How'd you like to try doing grocery shopping in a
> store where a large number of customers are trying
> to shop whilst holding a bicycvle upright? Okay, so
> they lean the bike against a shelf and then when they
> go to movethe bike the handlebar catches on something
> and sends it crashing to the floor. Gadzooks man, it's
> tricky enough trying to get around shoppers with
> shopping carts. Fulkl size bicycles in stores would
> result in all sorts of problems. Carry a decent lock
> and keep the bike locked outside. Good grief, even
> malls prohibit bicycles inside.

In all my years of cycling, I've only rarely seen a bicycle other than
my own inside a store. But I've seen mine (the full-size before I got
the Brompton) inside many times and four or five others occasionally.

I've never seen a bicycle knock anything done. But I have seen it
happen often by other causes.

--
Wes Groleau

[Doug Landau]

OK, next question: When you do bring your bike into a store, say a big grocery store with automatic doors, how far in do you ride it?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2016 4:19 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> Why are you not able to hold your bike with one hand and shop with the
> other? I never have a problem with that.
>
> Lowe's and Home Depot offer plenty of pillars, shelf sides and whatnot
> to park a bike for a minute yet I never needed that. The one time where
> I needed to show somthing intricate to an employee at ACE Hardware it
> took me about one second to spot a good place to lean my road bike
> against. Without knocking over a pyramid of bean cans.
>
> What exaclty is the problem?

Well, it doesn't sound convenient to me. Today I biked to the grocery
again, partly because my wife wanted to try a new recipe. I searched
quite a while for many unfamiliar ingredients, and bought about 25
different items. Leaning the bike at various places as I searched and
picked would have been a pain.

Here's a pertinent question: In places like Amsterdam or Copenhagen,
where bike transportation is so dominant, is it common practice for
people to push their bikes through grocery stores?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I wasn't planning on pushing a Bullitt Cargo in there.


>>> Cheers


Na'sdarovje :-)

Will enjoy a homemade Pale Ale later tonight.

>>>
>>
>> If, somewhere in a distant future, cyclists with bicycles in a
>> grocery store were more than a rare anomaly, the aisles would be
>> made wider (not unlike business accommodations for auto drivers;
>> drive-up windows, parking lots and such).
>>

They already are. How much wider do we want the aisles?

http://www.deacon.com/sites/default/files/projects/secondary-images/photo_project2-54.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CUyHWqinitI/Vc8laNoMjsI/AAAAAAAAf64/RablRnCc-bU/s400/merkado%2Bsupermarket%2Bwide%2Baisles%2Bmommywrites.jpg

Even in our little village you could drive a car through there if it was
legal.

>> p.s. I led a group ride on New Year's Day 1986 right through a
>> large shopping mall. Not one cyclist was challenged nor did we
>> interfere with the pedestrians.
>
> OK, next question: When you do bring your bike into a store, say a
> big grocery store with automatic doors, how far in do you ride it?
>

I always hop off at the curb because I consider it poor taste to cycle
on a sidewalk. Plus it's not always legal.

[Doug Landau]

> I always hop off at the curb because I consider it poor taste to cycle
> on a sidewalk. Plus it's not always legal.

http://f3nation.com/2014/07/30/vq-flanders-turns-it-up-on-the-f-bombfitness-by-oscillating-my-bicycle/

[John B.]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 12:21:00 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The part you are missing is "how many potential customers would want
to bring their bike into the store?"

If there is a large enough number that the store feels that the lose
of these customers will effect the bottom line then there will be an
effort made to accommodate them.

If it is one Cheap Charley customer then I would suggest that the
store would just as soon he went elsewhere.
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 3:20:58 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

http://users.skynet.be/vonweyersberg/Weapons/StielhandgranadeM24.jpg

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-11-2016 17:52, AMuzi wrote:
> If, somewhere in a distant future, cyclists with bicycles in a grocery
> store were more than a rare anomaly, the aisles would be made wider (not
> unlike business accommodations for auto drivers; drive-up windows,
> parking lots and such).

Not so sure. My experience now is that no store has ever seemed to
mind, but if there were hundreds of us, some would do as you said and
others would ban us.

Even now, I have been in some stores where it was difficult to get the
shopping carts past the in-aisle "specials."

--
Wes Groleau

[AMuzi]

completely situational. Various layouts, how much space, how
crowded etc are big variables. Being a customer doesn't
forgive being a jerk.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Andy. your shop have 2 nike leanable display counters ? One at exit one at shop floor ?

Upscale at Apple mall in WA sports several pine tree display racks on the way in....

[Sir Ridesalot]

And the very first time some customer in the store gets injured by a bicycle = lawsuit? god grief, it's nearly impossible to get served at a drive-thru in Toronto Canada, if you're on a bicycle even if the dining area is closed for the night. Seeing the number of idiots and inconsiderate people riding bicycles on sidewalks I'd dread to think about having to dodge those same idiots with their bicycles in a store even if the idiots weren't riding the bicycle. Add to that the fact that most people would not be looking for a bicycle in side a grocery store whilst shopping and you have a recipe for someone other than a biclist stepping into a bicycle as they move about or back from looking at something on a shelf. I'm pretty sure that customers without bicycles would soon complain about full-size bicycles being allowed inside grocery and many other stores.

Is it really that hard/inconvenient for people to secure their bicycle outside the store?

Cheers

[Joerg]

No, and bikes get stolen to no end. At least that's how it used to be
when I lived in the Netherlands in the 80's. I had a (chained!) bike
stolen there as well and when that is your main mode of transportation
that really stink. Being a student I did not have the budget to just go
and buy a new one.

[Duane]

On 12/10/2016 9:59 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
<snip>

> And the very first time some customer in the store gets injured by a bicycle = lawsuit? god grief, it's nearly impossible to get served at a drive-thru in Toronto Canada, if you're on a bicycle even if the dining area is closed for the night. Seeing the number of idiots and inconsiderate people riding bicycles on sidewalks I'd dread to think about having to dodge those same idiots with their bicycles in a store even if the idiots weren't riding the bicycle. Add to that the fact that most people would not be looking for a bicycle in side a grocery store whilst shopping and you have a recipe for someone other than a biclist stepping into a bicycle as they move about or back from looking at something on a shelf. I'm pretty sure that customers without bicycles would soon complain about full-size bicycles being allowed inside grocery and many other stores.
>

It does seem to be dangerous to ride up to a drive through in Ontario:
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/09/14/cyclist-hit-by-car-in-oakville-mcdonalds-drive-thru.html

> Is it really that hard/inconvenient for people to secure their bicycle outside the store?

I guess it depends on the bike. It would be hard for me to secure
everything on my road bike that someone would steal. I have a friend
who had his pedals stolen from his bike that was locked outside a store.

A lot of the hipsters around here either ride a beater or make a decent
bike look like a beater to avoid theft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2QzusbKlGM

[Joerg]

On the El Dorado Trail for example, lots.

> If there is a large enough number that the store feels that the lose
> of these customers will effect the bottom line then there will be an
> effort made to accommodate them.
>

You would not believe how stupid some owners are when it comes to the
topic of marketing. Heck, even most large stores can't even get their
web sites right.

> If it is one Cheap Charley customer then I would suggest that the
> store would just as soon he went elsewhere.
>

The folks on Specializeds, Treks and Giants tend to have healthy
disposable incomes so they'll order a Pliny instead of a Bud Light. It's
them who go elsewhere when a restaurant or pub isn't bike-friendly.

For a long time it was the same with motorcycle riders who were deemed
"undesirables" in many restaurants. Yet Harley-Davidson riders were
often doctors, dentists, lawyers, people with thick wallets, who then
went elsewhere.

It is not necessary to allow bikes inside but they must be in clear view
of the owner. Most people do not feel comfortable leaving a $4k bike in
some shady alley.

[Joerg]

You got a holder for that on your bike? :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2016 10:11 AM, Duane wrote:
>
>
> It does seem to be dangerous to ride up to a drive through in Ontario:
> https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/09/14/cyclist-hit-by-car-in-oakville-mcdonalds-drive-thru.html

It's "dangerous" only as in "Oooh, I found one person in the world who
suffered a bad injury!"

If that's your criterion for "dangerous," there are a LOT of everyday
actions that are far more dangerous.

>> Is it really that hard/inconvenient for people to secure their bicycle
>> outside the store?
>
> I guess it depends on the bike.

And it depends on the location. I think in most of the U.S. and Canada,
only minor precautions are really needed.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

OK, so in a society where bicycling is accepted by everyone, it's still
considered rude to wheel your bike through a store. That tells us
something about the practicality of the idea.

Regarding Amsterdam bikes getting "stolen to no end" - Yes, I understand
that there's lots of bike theft there. But ISTM that it's largely
because there are LOTS of bikes there, something like 900,000 of them.
The bike theft isn't bad enough to stop people from riding!

Furthermore, most bikes are probably treated rather casually by their
owners and locked with minimal locks. (The rental bike used by my
daughter when she was there had only the built-in rear wheel clamp lock.)

An old joke states that to escape when being chased by a bear, you don't
have to be faster than the bear; you just have to be faster than the
other guy who's being chased. By the same token, I'd expect that you'd
do fine in Amsterdam with a high quality lock and some diligence, unless
you were parking a highly desirable bike outside overnight. That
certainly worked for my friends who biked there.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-12 07:11, Duane wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 9:59 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...[

>> Is it really that hard/inconvenient for people to secure their bicycle
>> outside the store?
>
> I guess it depends on the bike. It would be hard for me to secure
> everything on my road bike that someone would steal. I have a friend
> who had his pedals stolen from his bike that was locked outside a store.
>
> A lot of the hipsters around here either ride a beater or make a decent
> bike look like a beater to avoid theft.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2QzusbKlGM
>

Andreas Borutta in the German bike NG promotes that method since many
years. However, it's tough to do with things such as lights and cycle
computers. It will also completely toast the warranty.

In the Netherlands back in the 80's we had to ride beaters because
everything else would be stolen in a jiffy. I even had one of those
stolen. Sometimes people stole bikes just to get from A to B and they
abandoned the bike at the destination. Upon which sometimes another
person stole the same now unlocked bike and rode from B to C.

I had cheapo department store road bikes tied to a cast iron fence down
at the street until they were completely worn or stolen. My formerly
expensive full custom road bike (which I still ride today) had to be
carried up three very narrow flights of stairs. That one I never left in
front of restaurants, meaning I didn't go into restaurants. Same with
the other guys, meaning they lost revenue.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-11-2016 18:03, Doug Landau wrote:
> OK, next question: When you do bring your bike into a store, say a big grocery store with automatic doors, how far in do you ride it?

I don't ride mine in, nor would I recommend it.

--
Wes Groleau

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 10-12-2016 09:14, Joerg wrote:
> It is not necessary to allow bikes inside but they must be in clear view
> of the owner. Most people do not feel comfortable leaving a $4k bike in
> some shady alley.

I spent half that for mine and I felt it was too much. I bike instead
of driving partly for economic benefit, so it's galling to pay more for
a bike than for a serviceable car.

--
Wes Groleau

[AMuzi]

My bicycle outside all alone? Not gonna happen.

[Doug Landau]

> OK, so in a society where bicycling is accepted by everyone, it's still
> considered rude to wheel your bike through a store. That tells us
> something about the practicality of the idea.

No, it doesn't. It tells us something about what others' reactions will be. Rational or not, practical or not.

The practicality of the idea is, actually, all over the board. There are big stores and small stores, wide aisles and narrow aisles; clean bikes and muddy bikes, small bikes and big bikes with bags and trailers; wet days and dry days, and stores with moppable floors and stores with carpet.

When I'm on tour with panniers and trailer and dripping wet with road grime yes I do feel that I'm being rude by pushing that into stores and everywhere else and bumping into people and things and apologizing a lot.

When I'm on my roadbike and it's dry and clean and I'm in a big store the bike is clearly not in anyone's way any more than is a shopping cart or baby stroller.

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-12 11:00, Doug Landau wrote:
>
>> OK, so in a society where bicycling is accepted by everyone, it's
>> still considered rude to wheel your bike through a store. That
>> tells us something about the practicality of the idea.
>

Frank, that is the typical conclusion when not thinking outside the box.
If I or my employers thought that way most of my jobs in life would have
never materilized. Such as "If everyone places stents in coronary
arteries with angio-guidance then that's the proper procedure". We gave
the world a better method and that's now used in all better hospitals. I
would not want to be treated at any other.

It was a serious problem over there in the 80's and probably still is.
At least I didn't see anything during visits that makes me think it
majorly changed. Fact is, we could not ride an expensive bike to a
store. We had to use a beater.

> No, it doesn't. It tells us something about what others' reactions
> will be. Rational or not, practical or not.
>
> The practicality of the idea is, actually, all over the board. There
> are big stores and small stores, wide aisles and narrow aisles; clean
> bikes and muddy bikes, small bikes and big bikes with bags and
> trailers; wet days and dry days, and stores with moppable floors and
> stores with carpet.
>
> When I'm on tour with panniers and trailer and dripping wet with road
> grime yes I do feel that I'm being rude by pushing that into stores
> and everywhere else and bumping into people and things and
> apologizing a lot.
>

Mine both have panniers but I'd never enter with my MTB dropping clumps
of soggy mud. That is a simple matter of courtesy. I'd just go another
day. Most of the time it's not an issue because the rain provides a free
bike wash during the last mile on pavement. I always carry a bungee so
it is easy to strap one of the stores shopping baskets ontop the back of
the bike. Instead of needing one hand for holding the basket I just use
that to hold the bike.

> When I'm on my roadbike and it's dry and clean and I'm in a big store
> the bike is clearly not in anyone's way any more than is a shopping
> cart or baby stroller.
>

Exactly.

[Joerg]

I don't either but most high-milers I know pay that much for their
bikes. Plus we all add stuff. Nice bright lights, some people have fancy
GPS, Strava units, various bags and panniers. Want to remove all that
before heading into the store? Nah, then I skip that store.

On good MTB you have rear shocks that can be removed in less than two
minutes. When it gets stolen that has about the same effect as finding
your fancy sports car seated on four bricks. The ride is over and you
are out lots of money.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:e67it7...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2016-10-12 08:59, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
>> On 10-12-2016 09:14, Joerg wrote:
>>> It is not necessary to allow bikes inside but they must be in clear view
>>> of the owner. Most people do not feel comfortable leaving a $4k bike in
>>> some shady alley.
>>
>> I spent half that for mine and I felt it was too much. I bike instead
>> of driving partly for economic benefit, so it's galling to pay more for
>> a bike than for a serviceable car.
>>
>
> I don't either but most high-milers I know pay that much for their bikes.
> Plus we all add stuff. Nice bright lights, some people have fancy GPS,
> Strava units, various bags and panniers.

It never ceases to amaze me how people set out to be envied - then whinge
about it when people act on the envy.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2016 3:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
> ... we all add stuff [to our bikes]. Nice bright lights, some people have

fancy
> GPS, Strava units, various bags and panniers. Want to remove all that
> before heading into the store? Nah, then I skip that store.
>
> On good MTB you have rear shocks that can be removed in less than two
> minutes. When it gets stolen that has about the same effect as finding
> your fancy sports car seated on four bricks. The ride is over and you
> are out lots of money.

As I mentioned, over a span of about 43 years of dedicated adult riding,
I had two cyclometers stolen from parked bikes. Nothing else. I've
parked bikes in countless cities in North America and Europe.

Of course, my headlights bolt on, and they're dynamo powered.
Taillights unclip easily, but they're cheap to replace. My bike bags
are very nice, but unfashionable.

If I were worried about something like a mountain bike shock, I believe
I'd install security fasteners; or at least fill the allen head socket
with epoxy or something. Hell, beeswax would probably be sufficient
deterrence for most thieves.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2016 2:00 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>
>> OK, so in a society where bicycling is accepted by everyone, it's still
>> considered rude to wheel your bike through a store. That tells us
>> something about the practicality of the idea.
>
> No, it doesn't. It tells us something about what others' reactions will be. Rational or not, practical or not.

I think it's better to not raise others' ire if it's easily avoided. To
me, that's practical. YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I consider good bike lights a safety-essential feature, not some
braggadoccio. And a bike without panniers is like a car without a trunk.

[Joerg]

On 2016-10-12 14:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2016 3:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> ... we all add stuff [to our bikes]. Nice bright lights, some people
>> have
> fancy
>> GPS, Strava units, various bags and panniers. Want to remove all that
>> before heading into the store? Nah, then I skip that store.
>>
>> On good MTB you have rear shocks that can be removed in less than two
>> minutes. When it gets stolen that has about the same effect as finding
>> your fancy sports car seated on four bricks. The ride is over and you
>> are out lots of money.
>
> As I mentioned, over a span of about 43 years of dedicated adult riding,
> I had two cyclometers stolen from parked bikes. Nothing else. I've
> parked bikes in countless cities in North America and Europe.
>
> Of course, my headlights bolt on, and they're dynamo powered. Taillights
> unclip easily, but they're cheap to replace. My bike bags are very
> nice, but unfashionable.
>

On the routes I often take one is well advised to carry a decent set of
quality tools. Those are in panniers that can't really be locked. As I
mentioned several times, bike technology is decades or more behind car
technology. Nobody in their right mind would buy a car where the trunk
can't be locked but cyclists must accept that as "normal".

> If I were worried about something like a mountain bike shock, I believe
> I'd install security fasteners; or at least fill the allen head socket
> with epoxy or something. Hell, beeswax would probably be sufficient
> deterrence for most thieves.
>

Not for the real pros. They do carry Swiss army knives and with that I
have so far pried out just about any epoxy "lock" on gear that said "no
user serviceable parts inside", and then opened it.

[Doug Landau]

OK, Caspar Milquetoast.

The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey

A MAN and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?” 1
So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.” 2
So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn’t gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.” 3
Well, the Man didn’t know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor Donkey of yours—you and your hulking son?” 4
The Man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the Donkey’s feet to it, and raised the pole and the Donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned. 5
“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them:
“PLEASE ALL, AND YOU WILL PLEASE NONE.”

[AMuzi]

On 10/12/2016 4:39 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2016 2:00 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, so in a society where bicycling is accepted by everyone, it's still
>>>> considered rude to wheel your bike through a store. That tells us
>>>> something about the practicality of the idea.
>>>
>>> No, it doesn't. It tells us something about what others' reactions will be. Rational or not, practical or not.
>>
>> I think it's better to not raise others' ire if it's easily avoided. To
>> me, that's practical. YMMV.
>
> OK, Caspar Milquetoast.
>
> The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey
>

> A MAN and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?†1
> So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.†2
> So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn’t gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.†3
> Well, the Man didn’t know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor Donkey of yours—you and your hulking son?†4
> The Man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the Donkey’s feet to it, and raised the pole and the Donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned. 5
> “That will teach you,†said an old man who had followed them:
> “PLEASE ALL, AND YOU WILL PLEASE NONE.â€
>

Rework that story with modern McGuffins and you can prosper
in a career as a retail consultant.

[Doug Landau]

No prob!

The Brain Store
A man walked into a brain store downtown and when the salesman asked "May I help you?" replied "Yes, I'd like to see some brains, please."
"Certainly! Right here," the salesman said, "on this table, we have some lawyers' brains, and they're very good brains, and they're $10/Lb."
"Okay, what else do you have?"
"Well, over on this table over here, we have some doctor's brains, and they're the best brains, and they're $100/Lb."
"I see. What else do you have?"
"Well, over here on -this- table, we have banker's brains, and they're $1000/Lb."
"$1000 a pound!!!" cried the customer. "Why so much?"
And the salesman glared at him with wide eyes and said: "Do you have any idea how many bankers you have to kill to get a pound of brains?!?"

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 07:14:01 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

You obviously don't get the point, deliberately I assume.

No bar in the world cares a bit about a guy that comes in and buys a
beer, whether he has a pocket full of gold or not. They do care about
a whole lot of people that come in and buy a beer, or better, several
beers.

Years ago Budweiser came up with an advertising campaign that depicted
genteel people in evening clothes sipping a Bud. A total flop, sales
didn't pick up at all and in fact dropped.

They switched advertising firms and the new firm brought in an
advertising campaign showing a guy sitting on the front stoop in his
"wife beater" and the slogan, "The one beer to have when you are
having more than one" and hired Ed McMahon to appear in beer adds -
Big Bluff Irishman selling Beer. Sales boomed..

>For a long time it was the same with motorcycle riders who were deemed
>"undesirables" in many restaurants. Yet Harley-Davidson riders were
>often doctors, dentists, lawyers, people with thick wallets, who then
>went elsewhere.

I hate to tell you but "back in the day" people that rode motorcycles
were the "lower class", those who couldn't afford to buy a car.
Perhaps in the U.S. where effete people will do anything to appear
virile - after all they invented the fashion of $200 blue jeans....
with holes in them - motorcycles are the toy of big, rich, folks, but
in most of the world those with large pots of gold ride around in
Mercedes 600's. The ones on the motorcycles can't afford even a
Chevrolet.

>It is not necessary to allow bikes inside but they must be in clear view
>of the owner. Most people do not feel comfortable leaving a $4k bike in
>some shady alley.
--

cheers,

John B.

[Bertrand]

> Years ago Budweiser came up with an advertising campaign...

> They switched advertising firms and the new firm brought in an

> advertising campaign ... "The one beer to have when you are
> having more than one"

That was Schaefer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAQPKz7ki8E

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:32:53 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2016-10-12 14:24, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2016 3:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> ... we all add stuff [to our bikes]. Nice bright lights, some people
>>> have
>> fancy
>>> GPS, Strava units, various bags and panniers. Want to remove all that
>>> before heading into the store? Nah, then I skip that store.
>>>
>>> On good MTB you have rear shocks that can be removed in less than two
>>> minutes. When it gets stolen that has about the same effect as finding
>>> your fancy sports car seated on four bricks. The ride is over and you
>>> are out lots of money.
>>
>> As I mentioned, over a span of about 43 years of dedicated adult riding,
>> I had two cyclometers stolen from parked bikes. Nothing else. I've
>> parked bikes in countless cities in North America and Europe.
>>
>> Of course, my headlights bolt on, and they're dynamo powered. Taillights
>> unclip easily, but they're cheap to replace. My bike bags are very
>> nice, but unfashionable.
>>
>
>On the routes I often take one is well advised to carry a decent set of
>quality tools. Those are in panniers that can't really be locked. As I
>mentioned several times, bike technology is decades or more behind car
>technology. Nobody in their right mind would buy a car where the trunk
>can't be locked but cyclists must accept that as "normal".
>

Well I've owned two cars that had no trunk at all, and seen a host of
others.. But more to the point, you can buy lockable "trunks" that fit
on the back of motorcycles and I've seen small - 90 - 100cc
motorcycles here with a version that is just the right size to use on
a bicycle. Amazon even sells them on line so you don't have to worry
about taking your bike to the store:
https://www.amazon.com/Planet-Bike-4020-Escape-Pod/dp/B0020BH67C

When, as a kid, I used to whine about something my mother used to say,
"The Good Lord helps those who help themselves".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yup, you are right, but Ed McMahon sold Bud :-)

As an aside, years ago you would see signs in beer joint in Texas -
"Lone star - 35 cents, Foreign Beer $1.00"

I asked, "what kind of foreign beer do you have". and the waitress
said, "You know Bud, Millers, like that" :-).
--
cheers,

John B.