Bicycle bottle diameters, why different?

[Joerg]

Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So the
Stansport bottle rattles around in there.

Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
industry we got that licked decades ago.

Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[sms]

On 3/20/2018 10:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So the
> Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>
> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
> industry we got that licked decades ago.
>
> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?

A standard bicycle water bottle is 2.875" (73 mm).

There are cages available for larger bottles. I have the best large cage
on a couple of bicycles. It means one bottle instead of two. It's also
extremely secure. It's item #1 on my page at
<http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>. There is also a cage for a growler (#3).

I recently saw adjustable diameter cages that us a rubber strap, at
Target and Walmart. Secure, but time consuming to get the bottle in and out.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-20 12:45, sms wrote:
> On 3/20/2018 10:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
>> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So
>> the Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>>
>> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
>> industry we got that licked decades ago.
>>
>> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?
>
> A standard bicycle water bottle is 2.875" (73 mm).
>

The Stansport is 2.820" (71.5mm) and the Cal Bike Gear is 2.885"
(73.3mm). Even worse is that the indentation ring is off by about
0.300". How can this happen? In medical, aerospace or other electronics
we'd get flogged for that.

> There are cages available for larger bottles. I have the best large cage
> on a couple of bicycles. It means one bottle instead of two. It's also
> extremely secure. It's item #1 on my page at
> <http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>. There is also a cage for a growler (#3).
>

Then I'd have another boutique solution, new bottles and all that. I was
hoping the bicycle industry would have agree to a bottle standard but
that hope was just dashed, like many others.

> I recently saw adjustable diameter cages that us a rubber strap, at
> Target and Walmart. Secure, but time consuming to get the bottle in and
> out.

I can also wrap some sort of bungee cord around it, hobo-style. However,
that gets old and the bottle won't go back in easily without pushing the
bungee down.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So the
> Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>
> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
> industry we got that licked decades ago.
>
> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?

No tricks that would work for you, sorry.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:54:55 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-03-20 12:45, sms wrote:
> > On 3/20/2018 10:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
> >> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
> >> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So
> >> the Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
> >>
> >> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
> >> industry we got that licked decades ago.
> >>
> >> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?
> >
> > A standard bicycle water bottle is 2.875" (73 mm).
> >
>
> The Stansport is 2.820" (71.5mm) and the Cal Bike Gear is 2.885"
> (73.3mm). Even worse is that the indentation ring is off by about
> 0.300". How can this happen? In medical, aerospace or other electronics
> we'd get flogged for that.

As you should -- in fact, flog yourself for this, too.

>
>
> > There are cages available for larger bottles. I have the best large cage
> > on a couple of bicycles. It means one bottle instead of two. It's also
> > extremely secure. It's item #1 on my page at
> > <http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>. There is also a cage for a growler (#3).
> >
>
> Then I'd have another boutique solution, new bottles and all that. I was
> hoping the bicycle industry would have agree to a bottle standard but
> that hope was just dashed, like many others.

n your day. I can>
>


All my dozens of bottles are within spec, and it is clear to me that the manufacturers are out to f*** with you. This is about you and only you. Cheap-shit water bottle makers like Stansport and Cal Bike Gear got together and said "let's f**** with Joerg." I'm so sorry for you. Next, they'll be screwing with your inner-tubes. Instead of 1.75-2.5" it will be 1.76661-2.499999". This is pay-back for all your complaining about the poor quality of bicycle components. When you make your next bottle order, use a different name.


-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 3/20/2018 1:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> The Stansport is 2.820" (71.5mm) and the Cal Bike Gear is 2.885"
> (73.3mm). Even worse is that the indentation ring is off by about
> 0.300". How can this happen? In medical, aerospace or other electronics
> we'd get flogged for that.

There is no standards body for water bottles. The diameter is supposed
to be 2.875" (73mm) with the indentation on tall bottles at 5.0" (127mm).

You should write a letter to Stansport. Maybe consider contacting an
attorney about a class action lawsuit. Claim that the bottle bounced out
on a trail and a mountain lion took it. Jay can handle the lawsuit for you.

> I can also wrap some sort of bungee cord around it, hobo-style. However,
> that gets old and the bottle won't go back in easily without pushing the
> bungee down.

Use layers of heat shrink tubing until you get that extra 1.5mm or so.
Of course that size heat shrink tubing will likely cost more than just
buying a proper bottle.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-20 15:01, sms wrote:
> On 3/20/2018 1:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The Stansport is 2.820" (71.5mm) and the Cal Bike Gear is 2.885"
>> (73.3mm). Even worse is that the indentation ring is off by about
>> 0.300". How can this happen? In medical, aerospace or other
>> electronics we'd get flogged for that.
>
> There is no standards body for water bottles. The diameter is supposed
> to be 2.875" (73mm) with the indentation on tall bottles at 5.0" (127mm).
>

The center of the indentation is 5-1/2" on the Stansport bottle and
5-3/4" on the Cal Bike bottle (which fits all holders like a glove).

> You should write a letter to Stansport. Maybe consider contacting an
> attorney about a class action lawsuit. Claim that the bottle bounced out
> on a trail and a mountain lion took it. Jay can handle the lawsuit for you.
>

That would only work if the mountain lion then choked on it and needed
expensive medical attention, followed by a few cat shrink sessions. For
a class action it would have to affect his tribe and two or three others.

>> I can also wrap some sort of bungee cord around it, hobo-style.
>> However, that gets old and the bottle won't go back in easily without
>> pushing the bungee down.
>
> Use layers of heat shrink tubing until you get that extra 1.5mm or so.
> Of course that size heat shrink tubing will likely cost more than just
> buying a proper bottle.

The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
online?

[sms]

On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
> online?

Stansport is primarly a camping equipment company. Buy from a supplier
of bicycle equipment.

I like the Clean Designs bottle <https://www.cleanbottle.com/>

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
> On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
>> online?
>
> Stansport is primarly a camping equipment company. Buy from a supplier
> of bicycle equipment.
>

But is sez "bike bottle" ...

https://www.stansport.com/bike-bottle-26-oz-214-26

I guess they need to learn and test their designs before release.

> I like the Clean Designs bottle <https://www.cleanbottle.com/>
>

30 bucks, yikes. I like their bottom screw lid though. Thanks, will look
for that brand then.

[jbeattie]

Hmmmm. I wonder where you could buy a water bottle? https://tinyurl.com/y9zbb7fg

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

All the way across town among the mountain lions and along
the Singletrack Trail of Death? For a mere plastic bottle?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/20/2018 6:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
> online?

It's impossible. There's absolutely no way.

So go to your LBS.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:58:10 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
>diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So the
>Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>
>Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
>industry we got that licked decades ago.
>
>Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and forth?

Sure. Buy a set of bottle cages made from steel or aluminum rod and
just bend them to fit.

I built a rack to hold two large bottles behind the seat and that is
what I did. It's been working for a number of years now with no
problems.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Your waterbottle holder can't handle a diameter difference of 1.8 mm? Get a better one.

Lou

[jbeattie]

Or any of the modern cages that squeeze the bottle, e.g. https://tinyurl.com/y9ykn6tv This design has a more positive hold than the rod cages. Of course, Joerg will need the uber gnarly "Gorilla Cage" with 14 lb grip. https://www.all3sports.com/products/xlab-gorilla-xt-carbon-cage?variant=33229316172&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr-vJjsn92QIVCmd-Ch1TQwzxEAYYBSABEgII-_D_BwE

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

You're being culturally insensitive to the aesthetic ethos
of Cameron Park

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dxBhgNs_d-o/WPu38iG2SZI/AAAAAAAAARY/oWTKna66qy0s6v3O99Xu3JOdbvI21kGkQCEw/s1600/duct%2Btape.jpg

[Joerg]

I wrote that I have a source for fitting bottles, I could just buy more
from Cal Gear because they fit like a glove.

The reason for my post was to find out why there isn't a real standard.
Like there is for wheel diameters, tires (well, maybe with the exception
of some Contis). I guess nobody knows.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-21 04:56, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:54:55 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-20 12:45, sms wrote:

[...]

>>> I recently saw adjustable diameter cages that us a rubber strap,
>>> at Target and Walmart. Secure, but time consuming to get the
>>> bottle in and out.
>>
>>
>> I can also wrap some sort of bungee cord around it, hobo-style.
>> However, that gets old and the bottle won't go back in easily
>> without pushing the bungee down.
>>
>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Your waterbottle holder can't handle a diameter difference of 1.8 mm?
> Get a better one.
>

It can but it cannot when they also messed up the indentation location
by more than 1/4". Which they did. Same for all other holders I tried
and there were some high-priced ones.

[Joerg]

On 2018-03-21 07:32, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/21/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 10:48:31 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:58:10 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
>>>> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So
>>>> the
>>>> Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
>>>> industry we got that licked decades ago.
>>>>
>>>> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and
>>>> forth?
>>>
>>> Sure. Buy a set of bottle cages made from steel or aluminum rod and
>>> just bend them to fit.
>>>
>>> I built a rack to hold two large bottles behind the seat and that is
>>> what I did. It's been working for a number of years now with no
>>> problems.
>>

Right, and after bending it back and forth 20 times to adapt to the
various bottles the holder goes plink ... breaks off.

>> Or any of the modern cages that squeeze the bottle, e.g.
>> https://tinyurl.com/y9ykn6tv This design has a more positive hold
>> than the rod cages. Of course, Joerg will need the uber gnarly
>> "Gorilla Cage" with 14 lb grip.
>> https://www.all3sports.com/products/xlab-gorilla-xt-carbon-cage?variant=33229316172&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr-vJjsn92QIVCmd-Ch1TQwzxEAYYBSABEgII-_D_BwE
>>

Anything plastic or carbon I'd soon break. As I said they also misplaced
the notch.

>>
>
> You're being culturally insensitive to the aesthetic ethos of Cameron Park
>
> https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dxBhgNs_d-o/WPu38iG2SZI/AAAAAAAAARY/oWTKna66qy0s6v3O99Xu3JOdbvI21kGkQCEw/s1600/duct%2Btape.jpg
>

I'd be perfectly ok with duct tape but that wouldn't fly with the missus.

[Frank Krygowski]

You're right, there is a real standard for wheel and tire sizes! It's
described in the four tables and one chart toward the bottom of this
page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

As Andrew says, standards are wonderful. That's why we have so many.

If you think it's valuable to have a set of water bottle standards,
perhaps you should work up a similar set of tables for water bottles and
their cages. But I doubt very many people will be interested.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

My favorite is a King Cage Ti rod waterbottle cage. Never had problems with any waterbottle. Last for life and doesn't stain your waterbottles.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps you need an adjustable bottle cage, one that changes shape to
accommodate different diameters and different lengths of bottles with
different indentation locations. And it should happen automatically!
After all, cars have power seats that adjust to different butts. And we
know your bike already has a proper electrical system.

Why is bicycle technology always so far behind car technology?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

There is a standard -- 73mm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottle_cage You bought a shitty water bottle from an outdoor equipment company that probably drew a bottle on the back of napkin, gave it to some OE plastic bottle manufacturer in PRC and then marketed the results as a bicycle water bottle. Its like complaining about Walmart bikes. I wouldn't be surprised if the bottle is radioactive and full of carcinogens.

What's more surprising to me is that your cages cannot accommodate a 1mm variance. You need better cages. You can also avoid the whole issue by going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop, Sam's Town Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly the colors! Support your LBS.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

On 3/21/2018 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/21/2018 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-20 17:48, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:44:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>

-and even more snip-

> As Andrew says, standards are wonderful. That's why we have
> so many.

Thanks but I pilfered the expression from Sheldon Brown.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

>> As Andrew says, standards are wonderful.
>> That's why we have so many.
>
> Thanks but I pilfered the expression from
> Sheldon Brown.

Often in the bicycle press it says "this
conforms with the x.y standard" but it doesn't
say how many bikes are constructed like that,
or speculate how many are likely to be.

I guess any bicycle manufacturer can change
a mm here or there and pretend it is a new
standard? But isn't that actually the opposite
of a standard?

Still, bikes seems to be standardized to an
amazing degree, at least those I see are.
They are even called "standard bikes" here
(which means not a road bike, and not MTB) and
they certainly live up to the designation.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[Joerg]

Now it would be great if you could explain that to some tire manufacturers.

> If you think it's valuable to have a set of water bottle standards,
> perhaps you should work up a similar set of tables for water bottles and
> their cages. But I doubt very many people will be interested.
>

The industry should be.

[Joerg]

It's almost 2mm and as I wrote the indentation is also way off.

> You need better cages. You can also avoid the whole
> issue by going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop, Sam's Town
> Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly the colors!
> Support your LBS.
>

I will if his prices are reasonable and he has >25oz bottles. His web
site is, ahem, not quite there yet.

[Joerg]

Both of them do so I could even mount a "his and hers" buttons :-)

Now about that butt adjustment, that would be very cool. On rides longer
than 4-5h it's not fatigue or breath or whatever that irks me. My behind
begins to hurt. And yes, also on the rather expensive WTB seat.

> Why is bicycle technology always so far behind car technology?
>

I don't know but it usually is, by decades. Except when it comes to
suspensions where I think only Citroen and maybe Lincoln can rival what
good MTB have.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 10:44:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/21/2018 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/21/2018 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2018-03-20 17:48, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:44:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >>>> On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> -and even more snip-
>
> > As Andrew says, standards are wonderful. That's why we have
> > so many.
>
> Thanks but I pilfered the expression from Sheldon Brown.

Let's hope Joerg doesn't start buying Italian bicycle clothing. "These shorts were supposed to be XL! They wouldn't fit a dwarf! Is there no standard for XL shorts? When I made medical devices, we were held to a tolerance of .0000001mm!"

He would then note that he could get the shorts over his massive quads, but that either (1) they could not stand up to the mountain lion attacks or day-long pounding on the death trails in Cameron Park, or (2) they were vetoed by his wife.

My wife doesn't micro-manage my equipment decisions, although my son would probably shun me if I put duct tape on my water bottle. He's a real equipment snob. Maybe the duct tape thing would prompt him to give me back my two favorite bottles -- a couple of CamelBaks with the one-way valves.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

My favorites too.The only bottles I used that do't leak.

Lou

[jbeattie]

Who cares about price! The spread couldn't be more than a buck or two, and you want to support the shop. You get cool looking bottles with graphics that make you part of the Sam's Town Cyclery in-crowd. People will come up to you on the trail while you're petting horses and want to talk about Sam's Town. You'll make friends and influence people.

I'm about to walk over to the Bike Gallery to buy a tube and some glue (flat on the way to work, old glue tube dried out and wrong size spare tube). I might just get the glue. Anyway, I'll get scalped, but for what -- a $1? They're nice guys and worked hard to coordinate the delivery of my Trek from Trek Co. Shout out to Justin. Anyway, I get endless free advice from them, and it does not pain me to pay a little more than internet bargain-basement prices for disposables. Yes, there is a point when it becomes highway robbery for a tube, but BG is not that kind of shop. You also have to look at it as an average. I've gotten some killer sale-table deals from BG.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

For about 20-30 rides, then the bottle looks blackish and sand-blasted
and nothing will be readable.

> I'm about to walk over to the Bike Gallery to buy a tube and some
> glue (flat on the way to work, old glue tube dried out and wrong size
> spare tube). I might just get the glue. Anyway, I'll get scalped,
> but for what -- a $1? They're nice guys and worked hard to coordinate
> the delivery of my Trek from Trek Co. Shout out to Justin. Anyway, I
> get endless free advice from them, and it does not pain me to pay a
> little more than internet bargain-basement prices for disposables.
> Yes, there is a point when it becomes highway robbery for a tube, but
> BG is not that kind of shop. You also have to look at it as an
> average. I've gotten some killer sale-table deals from BG.
>

I don't mind either if it's a couple of buck more. Got to support the
local guys which is why I bought my MTB locally for about $100 more
versus online. What I do mind is if stuff costs 5x or more versus
online. As is often the case with brake pads, caliper extenders, lights
and so on.

[sms]

On 3/21/2018 12:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I'm about to walk over to the Bike Gallery to buy a tube and some glue (flat on the way to work, old glue tube dried out and wrong size spare tube). I might just get the glue. Anyway, I'll get scalped, but for what -- a $1? They're nice guys and worked hard to coordinate the delivery of my Trek from Trek Co. Shout out to Justin. Anyway, I get endless free advice from them, and it does not pain me to pay a little more than internet bargain-basement prices for disposables. Yes, there is a point when it becomes highway robbery for a tube, but BG is not that kind of shop. You also have to look at it as an average. I've gotten some killer sale-table deals from BG.

Bike Gallery was awesome the last time I visited them in around 1992.

I do hate to get scalped on stuff like tubes. When a high quality tube
that I can get for $3 ends up costing $10, that's painful. I try to keep
a good stock of tubes in all the different sizes for my fleet.

[jbeattie]

And then there is just getting screwed by everyone on price, i.e., things that used to be cheap are expensive everywhere. For example, at Bike Gallery:

1. 5g tube of Rema glue: $2.50. Crap! So, on line, $5.92 plus free shipping at Amazon. $2.95 at Tree Fort. http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/333222357513/693/Rema-Glue,-5-Gram-Tube.html $8.95 plus free shipping at Niagra. https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/rema-glue-cold-vulcanizing-fluid-5-gram-tube $3.99 at Universal across town. Incroyable! What is up with that?


2.

[jbeattie]

Ooops, too soon. 2. 28-32mm tube 48mm presta removable core (Bontrager): $7.50. Ah Chihuahua! I used to get tubes for $.99 at Nashbar in bulk. Anyway, QBP version from Colorado Cyclist $7.95 $8 Bikewagon (QBP version). $6 for the Conti version over at Biketires Direct on sale: https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/continental-race-road-tube?fltr=3857+3858+3859+3860 Waaaah! I should have price matched! I always forget to price match. But assuming no price match, I was still in the ball park. These stupid little things have just gotten ridiculously expensive.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 3/21/2018 2:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> Ah Chihuahua! I used to get tubes for $.99 at Nashbar in bulk. Anyway, QBP version from Colorado Cyclist $7.95 $8 Bikewagon (QBP version). $6 for the Conti version over at Biketires Direct on sale: https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/continental-race-road-tube?fltr=3857+3858+3859+3860 Waaaah! I should have price matched! I always forget to price match. But assuming no price match, I was still in the ball park. These stupid little things have just gotten ridiculously expensive.

If only a shop could sell high quantities of high-margin low-priced
stuff like tires and tubes.

OTOH, perhaps a shop that decided to sell tubes at a lower price could
get more people to come into the shop rather than stocking up on tubes
from an on-line source or from going to Wal-Mart for them.

[Frank Krygowski]

But it just occurred to me: The bottle (or cup) holders in my car are
not adjustable.

Damn. I should have bought a different car.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see any reference to an
outside document.

> What's more surprising to me is that your cages cannot accommodate a
> 1mm variance. You need better cages. You can also avoid the whole
> issue by going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop, Sam's Town
> Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly the colors!
> Support your LBS.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

--

[Emanuel Berg]

Radey Shouman wrote:

> Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
> any reference to an outside document.

Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
people who first boast of their standards
making the world better, then won't even reveal
their standards free of charge when it is just
a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
a web server?

[Joerg]

I solved that problem years ago by buying tubes for around $15 each with
0.120" wall thickness for the road bike, 0.160" for the MTB, plus tire
liner, plus another medium thickness tube into which the tire liner is
slid on the MTB (to reduce chafing). This resulted in no more flats. I
simply can't stand being inconvenienced by a flat. The only failures I
had were, for example, sidewall blowouts on those #^%&@!! Gatorskins.

Of course, one cannot typically find those tubes in a bike shop. They
only carry the regular fare and the slime stuff, neither of which I
found to be adequate. So they kind of force you onto the web where all
this is easily obtainable.

[Joerg]

For cars there is nearly always help:

https://cars.statesman.com/stories/510699920-bottle-pro-lets-you-fit-bigger-gulp-in-car-s-cup-holder

Also, the industry does adhere to standards there. I couldn't believe it
when I saw it but even the big gulp "cup" that a friend bought with coke
in there at a gas station had a narrow extension at the bottom so it fit
the cup holder in his truck. No idea where all that coke went but when
we got to the trail head it was all gone.

[AMuzi]

Bicycle tube valves are no longer made from free machining
brass[1] like other valves. The minuscule lead content
posed a risk that your children[2] might eat a bunch of
brass valves daily for years with possibly deleterious
outcome[3].

Rubber cement and worse tubular cement fell under different
regulation in, if I recall, 2015. Super duty rate and
reporting regulations now.

But hey it's for the children![4]

[1]Notice new color mark on the side of the valve stem.
[2]My daughter, heck even my grandsons, are smarter than
that. Maybe.
[3]No specific incident was ever cited in the regulation.
[4]Scary words, yes? Justifies damn near anything nowadays.
And yet I can't recall the last time I had to ride around
piles of children's bodies:
https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ourworldindata_child-mortality-since-1960.png

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> But hey it's for the children!

OK, but what is it then? People just make up
things so they can justify doing new things, or
old things in a new way?

[AMuzi]

It's inherently unresolvable by its nature.

Rigid standards stymie progress. You want a universal car?
It's a Trabant. Universal bike? Chinese knockoff of a
Raleigh Roadster, and so on. If we had established national
computer standards when they were first proposed, we'd all
be using Fortran and punch cards. Our DOD is in fact using
some systems from that era yet.

Conversely, the past 30 years or so have seen a spectacular
decline in cost of tooling and distribution so any putz can
take a nearly obsolete 26" format (584mm) between the
popular 26 inch 559 and 590 sizes, call it twenty seven and
a half (why? Because it's smaller than a British 26 inch
that's why!) and using today's efficient marketing and
distribution channels push out the cheaper established sizes
in a few short years. Progress!

So we make our call case by case with no principle.

[Joerg]

Our 71mm bottle will make you faster! It will shave at least 150
microseconds off the average morning commute! Progress!

[AMuzi]

On 3/21/2018 5:55 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> But hey it's for the children!
>
> OK, but what is it then? People just make up
> things so they can justify doing new things, or
> old things in a new way?
>

In your average Stalinist Monarchy[1] "Dear Leader Say So"
is all the reason needed. In this enlightened republic, our
cruel overlords need to invent new and different lies from
time to time.



[1] Average? there's only ever been one of those.

[AMuzi]

prior art:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Wb2wCCagBEM/TzAjJ8LLfII/AAAAAAAAInA/yxRFEZKEGSE/s400/c-aerobottle.jpeg

http://i50.tinypic.com/24q5oop.jpg

http://velobase.com/CompImages/SmallParts/388BB4AC-6F03-4D4D-A8C8-6D6C5F02DB5B.jpeg

http://www.oldbici.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/oldbici-porta-bottiglie-bottle-carrier-vintage-bicycle-4.jpg

http://www.profile-design.com/files/7914/2318/0239/Feature-Aerodrink-Bracket.jpg

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1023/7875/products/RZ2-OnBike_large.jpg?v=1485915786

I intended to link the Elite 70mm (skinny) bottle from a few
years ago but could not find an image. Seems to have been
voted out by cyclists and erased from The Inter Webs.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> In your average Stalinist Monarchy[1] "Dear
> Leader Say So" is all the reason needed.
> In this enlightened republic, our cruel
> overlords need to invent new and different
> lies from time to time.
>
> [1] Average? there's only ever been one
> of those.

Obviously it is good that people try to come up
with new stuff, including new standards, and
I don't think we would have had the good stuff
if it weren't for all those guys (and girls)
who come up with stuff (or write standards)
that never made anyone the least happy.

It only gets a bit embarrassing when people
refer to the new standard like
"we-know-what-it-is-about" attitude or hits the
big drum for some thing that won't ever make it
anywhere from that first article describing the
new product release.

But again, I see it as part of the game so why
all the irony?

[Radey Shouman]

Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com> writes:

> Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see
>> any reference to an outside document.
>
> Why not? Are we supposed to put more stock in
> people who first boast of their standards
> making the world better, then won't even reveal
> their standards free of charge when it is just
> a matter of duplicating a bunch of 0s and 1s on
> a web server?

Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that sort of purpose.
All facts in it are supposed to be verifiable using some external expert
source -- Wikipedia is explicitly *not* for the first publication.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

Which is why I thought it odd that no reference or link was provided to
reference to the 73 mm "standard" diameter. Perhaps I missed it.

--

[John B.]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:57:35 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2018-03-21 07:32, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/21/2018 8:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 10:48:31 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:58:10 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just ordered a bottle from Stansport. It is nice but much smaller in
>>>>> diameter than my California Bike Gear bottle which is a snug fit. So
>>>>> the
>>>>> Stansport bottle rattles around in there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can't they agree on one standard diameter? In the electronics
>>>>> industry we got that licked decades ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any tricks how to adapt to both without bending the cage back and
>>>>> forth?
>>>>
>>>> Sure. Buy a set of bottle cages made from steel or aluminum rod and
>>>> just bend them to fit.
>>>>
>>>> I built a rack to hold two large bottles behind the seat and that is
>>>> what I did. It's been working for a number of years now with no
>>>> problems.
>>>
>
>Right, and after bending it back and forth 20 times to adapt to the
>various bottles the holder goes plink ... breaks off.
>
Or, one could buy several bottles all the same size and bend the cage
only when they all wear out.

One can only speculate on why you have all these problems that the
rest of the world seems to be able to overcome without mention.

>
>>> Or any of the modern cages that squeeze the bottle, e.g.
>>> https://tinyurl.com/y9ykn6tv This design has a more positive hold
>>> than the rod cages. Of course, Joerg will need the uber gnarly
>>> "Gorilla Cage" with 14 lb grip.
>>> https://www.all3sports.com/products/xlab-gorilla-xt-carbon-cage?variant=33229316172&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr-vJjsn92QIVCmd-Ch1TQwzxEAYYBSABEgII-_D_BwE
>>>
>
>Anything plastic or carbon I'd soon break. As I said they also misplaced
>the notch.
>
>>>
>>
>> You're being culturally insensitive to the aesthetic ethos of Cameron Park
>>
>> https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dxBhgNs_d-o/WPu38iG2SZI/AAAAAAAAARY/oWTKna66qy0s6v3O99Xu3JOdbvI21kGkQCEw/s1600/duct%2Btape.jpg
>>
>
>I'd be perfectly ok with duct tape but that wouldn't fly with the missus.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 3/21/2018 5:55 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>> But hey it's for the children!
>>
>> OK, but what is it then? People just make up
>> things so they can justify doing new things, or
>> old things in a new way?
>>
>
> In your average Stalinist Monarchy[1] "Dear Leader Say So" is all the
> reason needed. In this enlightened republic, our cruel overlords need
> to invent new and different lies from time to time.
>
>
>
> [1] Average? there's only ever been one of those.

I suspect in the case of bicycle valves the impetus came from the
European ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) directive. Same
reason leaded solder has become so thin on the ground.

--

[Emanuel Berg]

I just bought a kit of ring spanners from
"Alpha Tools", I think it is a low-end brand,
either that, or this particular kit was of
so-so quality, is my intuition. Anyway they are
"DIN 838". On a double open-end spanner, which
is a Heyco 10 and 13mm, it says "DIN 895".
It would be interesting to see what they say if
anyone found them on the web and care to
share...

[John B.]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:51:34 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2018-03-20 17:48, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:44:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-20 15:54, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/20/2018 3:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> The question is, how do you know if a bottle is proper when buying one
>>>>> online?
>>>>
>>>> Stansport is primarly a camping equipment company. Buy from a supplier
>>>> of bicycle equipment.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But is sez "bike bottle" ...
>>>
>>> https://www.stansport.com/bike-bottle-26-oz-214-26
>>>
>>> I guess they need to learn and test their designs before release.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I like the Clean Designs bottle <https://www.cleanbottle.com/>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 30 bucks, yikes. I like their bottom screw lid though. Thanks, will look
>>> for that brand then.
>>
>>
>> Hmmmm. I wonder where you could buy a water bottle? https://tinyurl.com/y9zbb7fg
>>
>
>I wrote that I have a source for fitting bottles, I could just buy more
>from Cal Gear because they fit like a glove.
>
>The reason for my post was to find out why there isn't a real standard.
>Like there is for wheel diameters, tires (well, maybe with the exception
>of some Contis). I guess nobody knows.

Ah, but if there was a standard for the bottles carried on bicycles
you wouldn't be able to carry that big bucket of beer that you brag
about. After all, it wouldn't be standard.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Now that would be my favorite. All the others will hopefully have
vanished in the frou-frou pile.

When I was young many Belgian cyclists had two bottle holders on their
road bikes. One held a regular water bottle, the other a demi-bouteille
(half-size) wine bottle or a Trappiste Ale. They let that circle around
during rides. "Hey, try this Cote du Rhone". I wonder what would happen
if a US cop saw that.

>
> http://www.profile-design.com/files/7914/2318/0239/Feature-Aerodrink-Bracket.jpg
>
>
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1023/7875/products/RZ2-OnBike_large.jpg?v=1485915786
>
>
> I intended to link the Elite 70mm (skinny) bottle from a few years ago
> but could not find an image. Seems to have been voted out by cyclists
> and erased from The Inter Webs.
>

I wish we had stuck with the round ones with cloth layer for evaporative
cooling. The kind that John Wayne had dangling on the side of his horse.
Those worked.

http://www.oasiscanteens.com/images/2-4qt_felted.jpg

Of course, back in the days they sometimes had "fire water" in one of them.

[AMuzi]

My 'for the children' referred to the end of free machining
brass valves.

If you want to discuss standards, BetaMax was clearly
superior to VHS. Not that it mattered.

[AMuzi]

On 3/21/2018 7:14 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> I just bought a kit of ring spanners from
> "Alpha Tools", I think it is a low-end brand,
> either that, or this particular kit was of
> so-so quality, is my intuition. Anyway they are
> "DIN 838". On a double open-end spanner, which
> is a Heyco 10 and 13mm, it says "DIN 895".
> It would be interesting to see what they say if
> anyone found them on the web and care to
> share...
>

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+838&t=hg&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+895&t=hg&iax=images&ia=images

[Emanuel Berg]

Radey Shouman wrote:

> Wikipedia is plainly not organized for that
> sort of purpose. All facts in it are supposed
> to be verifiable using some external expert
> source

This is the old cathedral vs. bazaar all over,
and the bazaar has won.

[John B.]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:14:24 +0100, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>I just bought a kit of ring spanners from
>"Alpha Tools", I think it is a low-end brand,
>either that, or this particular kit was of
>so-so quality, is my intuition. Anyway they are
>"DIN 838". On a double open-end spanner, which
>is a Heyco 10 and 13mm, it says "DIN 895".
>It would be interesting to see what they say if
>anyone found them on the web and care to
>share...

DIN 838
Box wrenches, double head - Test torques series A
Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
Standard), 09/01/2007

DIN 895
Engineers wrenches for subordinate applications - Dimensions and test
torques
Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
Standard), 09/01/2007

The details of each standard are available from the Institute upon
paying a fee.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The sections you mention had a note that they required further
editing. Perhaps because they mention a definite size and did not
provide a reference.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

I didn't see that. All sections have an "edit" link, so you, or someone
else can edit them. There are some sections that say "citation needed",
but not the 73 mm pronouncement. I have never edited a Wikipedia entry,
so take what I say with a grain of salt.

--

[John B.]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:22:29 -0400, Radey Shouman

I *think* that any Wikki page can be edited at any time. At least I
remember someone on another site complaining about posting something
on the Wikki and later finding it edited to "correct it". His
complaint was that his original entry was factually correct and the
edited version was incorrect and he was trying to find some method of
locking his post so it couldn't be changed. I gathered that there was
no way that an entry could be prevented from being edited.

But then, I've never posted anything to the Wikki :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

On 21/03/2018 4:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 12:30:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-03-21 12:20, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 11:39:48 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-03-21 08:49, jbeattie wrote:

>>>>> What's more surprising to me is that your cages cannot
>>>>> accommodate a 1mm variance.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> It's almost 2mm and as I wrote the indentation is also way off.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> You need better cages. You can also avoid the whole issue by
>>>>> going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop, Sam's Town
>>>>> Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly the
>>>>> colors! Support your LBS.
>>>>>
>>>>

I try to support the LBS as much as possible. For tubes I can save a
couple of bucks buying online but I usually have to buy enough to avoid
shipping costs and then hope that I don't get hit with duty. So I just
buy them from the shop.

Tires on the other hand are getting ridiculous. I can get a pair of
Conti GP4000s from ChainReactionCycles for the price of one tire locally.

[Radey Shouman]

Edit wars are being waged, even now, on topics that at least two people
find controversial. Some of those people work for governments.

Not the ideal platform for hosting a standard.

--

[sms]

On 3/22/2018 5:48 AM, Duane wrote:

> Tires on the other hand are getting ridiculous.  I can get a pair of
> Conti GP4000s from ChainReactionCycles for the price of one tire locally.

The margins on tires of all kinds are huge. It's like mattresses. So
there's a lot of room for discounting.

But the bigger issue is actually finding the tires you want in stock.
Jay has two large shops near him, as well as the Biketiresdirect pick-up
option. For most of us, it would mean a lot of driving around or calling
around to find the tires we wanted, and then paying 2x the price. Not
the shop's fault, you can't expect a shop to stock hundreds of sizes and
brands of tires.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:52:02 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>

> Wikipedia is a standards body? I didn't see any reference to an
> outside document.

I don't know if there is a standards body, but there is certainly a de facto standard -- same with mounting bolt spacing. That doesn't mean a manufacturer has to follow the de facto standard, but variations have usually been sold as bottle-cage combos or been advertised as being non-standard, e.g. cage for disposable plastic water bottles, etc.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

That's what panniers were invented for. That is where my growler rides.
Or rode because now I brew beer myself.

[Joerg]

Judging by the various partially full bottles encountered along trails I
am not the only one.

It's just that cyclists seem to put up with a lot of stuff that
motorists would not tolerate.

[Frank Krygowski]

Right. That's almost the definition of a wiki.

http://dilbert.com/strip/2009-05-08

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 3/22/2018 8:21 AM, Joerg wrote:

> It's just that cyclists seem to put up with a lot of stuff that
> motorists would not tolerate.

That's why you need the BBB Fuel Tank XL. Bottles cannot be ejected. You
buy a bottle of water with the right diameter from Trader Joes. Add a
sport top. I like not carrying multiple bottles of water, and if you
don't need a large amount of water you just don't fill it all the way.
If I put the bike on the car rack I can leave the bottle on the bike
knowing it won't bounce out.

It's a hassle to adjust the height of the retaining clamp so don't
change bottle sizes.

<http://oi68.tinypic.com/25z2k41.jpg>

[Duane]

In my case I'm using tires that are readily available at most shops
dealing with road bikes so that's not an issue. I was using Spec Turbo
Pro tires and those are not available online but since my favorite shop
dropped the Spec line, I switched to Conti 4000s.

[Joerg]

It looks like a solid system though likely not easy to whip out during
the ride to take a sip every now and then. In my case not very practical
because this wouldn't work on the MTB. For that I found a handlebar
holder that hangs on to (fitting) bottles very well. It is very rare
that the bottle flies out and that almost requires some impact with
branches.

For large quantities to refill the bottle, or to take a massive gulp on
a trail, I have lots of trunk space on both bikes. The MTB can carry up
to 1-1/2 gallons which is necessary on long trails during hot summer
days. I really needed I could add my 2-liter hydation pack but I don't
like it because it gives me a sweaty back.

[John B.]

The point is that he bought something that he didn't know would fit on
his bike and when it doesn't fit he complains about it.

What's next? Complaints that the 300c tire he bought on the Web
doesn't fit his MTB?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

That agrees with my experience, of never buying a bottle nor cage that
would not fit the ones I already had. As you say, it's plainly not a
formal standard. Apart from Wikipedia I can't find it even written down
anywhere online.



--

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> DIN 838 Box wrenches, double head - Test
> torques series A Standard by Deutsches
> Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
> Standard), 09/01/2007
>
> DIN 895 Engineers wrenches for subordinate
> applications - Dimensions and test torques
> Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung
> E.V. (German National Standard), 09/01/2007
>
> The details of each standard are available
> from the Institute upon paying a fee.

:)

I'd like to thank everyone for their answers
and they have made a practical influence, tho
of course it doesn't matter what we do, only
Jehovah knows

Tho I know you like to be brilliant with your
knowledge and I like mine as well I know that
you know its just a bike and just a car and
even an aeroplane. The funny thing is tho
I know you will react internally bubble-bubble
you ALL know this :) Ha ha ha!

My next project will be a technology one and
some morons will think this any different from
putting together a sweet old steel SWEDISH
standard bike :)) You take your lycra...

PS. Here in Sweden everything is so good -
here, we are not nationalists! :))

[Sepp Ruf]

Emanuel Berg:

> John B. wrote:
>
>> DIN 838 Box wrenches, double head - Test
>> torques series A Standard by Deutsches
>> Institut Fur Normung E.V. (German National
>> Standard), 09/01/2007
>>
>> DIN 895 Engineers wrenches for subordinate
>> applications - Dimensions and test torques
>> Standard by Deutsches Institut Fur Normung
>> E.V. (German National Standard), 09/01/2007
>>
>> The details of each standard are available
>> from the Institute upon paying a fee.

According to the publisher, though, anyone buying this cheap book is getting
kiloeuro's worth of bicycle tech standards:
<https://www.beuth.de/en/publication/din-taschenbuch-345/223066209>

> :)

Actually, paying a bit of ransom seems preferable to signing up to and
taking notes inside any standards committee meetings.

> I'd like to thank everyone for their answers
> and they have made a practical influence, tho
> of course it doesn't matter what we do, only
> Jehovah knows

But then, since last week in Sweden, they are planning to ban Jehovah:
<https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/sweden-plans-ban-on-religious-education-immigration-crisis/>

> My next project will be a technology one and
> some morons will think this any different from
> putting together a sweet old steel SWEDISH
> standard bike :)) You take your lycra...

SWEloi been imbibing Joergian formula suds or inhaling too much CO?

> PS. Here in Sweden everything is so good -
> here, we are not nationalists! :))

What a shame! A proper nationalist would simply row (or Volvo-marine) his
boat across the Baltic Sea to Prussian-occupied Rostock[1] in Southern
Sweden, on a mission to liberate wrench standards. Printouts or taking
photographs of any of the sacred DIN wrench standards is Verboten!, but
having Merkelian library staff copy for you would probably work just by
claiming to be a professor from "Upper Syria".

[1]
<http://www.ub.uni-rostock.de/ub/xAboutUs/pnz_xen.shtml>
Uni Rostock
Parkstr. 6
18057 Rostock

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 8:02:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/21/2018 6:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 2018-03-21 15:59, AMuzi wrote:

> >>>> What's more surprising to me is that your cages cannot
> >>>> accommodate a

> >>>> 1mm variance. You need better cages. You can also avoid

> >>>> the whole
> >>>> issue by going over to your lauded trail-end bike shop,
> >>>> Sam's Town
> >>>> Cyclery, and buying bottles that you know will fit. Fly
> >>>> the colors!
> >>>> Support your LBS.
> >>
> >>

> http://www.profile-design.com/files/7914/2318/0239/Feature-Aerodrink-Bracket.jpg
>
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1023/7875/products/RZ2-OnBike_large.jpg?v=1485915786
>
> I intended to link the Elite 70mm (skinny) bottle from a few
> years ago but could not find an image. Seems to have been
> voted out by cyclists and erased from The Inter Webs.
>

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I still have and use 2 of the Campy Aero bottles and I also have and use 4 of the Shimano Aero bottles. I really like them.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/24/2018 2:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
>
> I still have and use 2 of the Campy Aero bottles and I also have and use 4 of the Shimano Aero bottles. I really like them.

I used to have one of the Shimano aero bottles. Sadly, it didn't seem to
make me any faster.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

That depends on what you put in there :-)

[John B.]

But if you had four?
--
Cheers,

John B.