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Preserving polished aluminum

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John B.

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Jul 30, 2017, 5:00:23 AM7/30/17
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I've got quite a few aluminum bits and pieces from older bikes that
are pretty shoddy looking with nicks and dents and corrosion. I can
clean them up with a "flap" wheel and then polish then with the
usually buffing wheels and decreasing compound grits until they have a
high polish but once back on a bicycle again they seem to corrode
rather rapidly and in a few months end up looking sort of "splotched"
and dull, which of course is exactly what bare aluminum does in
contact with air.

I've tried a number of schemes to preserve the polish such as heavy
paste wax and even a coat of clear lacquer or in one case thinned
epoxy resin. This wasn't exactly successful as the wax disappears
quickly and the lacquer tends to chip and even the thinned epoxy tends
to flaked off in places.

Shimano seems to coat much of their aluminum bits with some sort of
"silver paint" which obviously isn't just that as it seems to last for
years.

I would prefer the look of highly polished aluminum (without the
corrosion) but that obviously will take considerable and continued
labour the way I am doing it at present.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how, or with what, to coat highly
polished aluminum to, at least, reduce the corrosion to a reasonable
level? Say a once a year polish?
--
Cheers,

John B.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2017, 9:25:41 AM7/30/17
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who looks?


http://www.bing.com/search?q=auto%20restoration%20aluminum%20forum&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=auto%20restoration%20aluminum%20forum&sc=0-31&sk=&cvid=E31E3C5CAB7243A5A3CCBD291E9FDF7E

I have one. magic taped Reynolds over the van's rear cargo door windows reflect sun as then is parked on a w-e grid.....a whitish water born dried flow is on glass

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:07:33 AM7/30/17
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http://www.wikihow.com/Anodize-Aluminum

Long term polished aluminum usually has a finished layer of some wear resistant material such as two part urethane clear coat.

AMuzi

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Jul 30, 2017, 11:14:23 AM7/30/17
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Classic French equipment in bare aluminum looks fantastic
with Simichrome or any similar metal polish on a cotton
cloth. Trouble is, as we both found, regular cleaning and
polishing is required to maintain that finish.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/mikipv9.jpg

Campagnolo classic cranks had a deep clear anodize which is
more durable but an absolute pain once nicked through.
Filing out the damage followed up with wet sand and then
rouge on a cotton wheel leaves a 'hole' in the finish and so
you're back to the prior paragraph.

If you can accept painted rather than metal aesthetically,
consult your local auto paint supplier - the guy who sells
to body shops. Metal etch and two-part primer for aluminum
are standard items, after which a silver[1] metallic
catalyzed paint could roughly duplicate the modern Alivio
type finish.

[1] or pink, whatever.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 30, 2017, 12:22:27 PM7/30/17
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On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 16:00:18 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Does anyone have any suggestions on how, or with what, to coat highly
>polished aluminum to, at least, reduce the corrosion to a reasonable
>level? Say a once a year polish?

If you spray or dip on a relatively soft coating, further polishing
will remove the coating. One of the locals demonstrated the principle
by polishing his fairly new clear coated vehicle with "light" abrasive
wax, which successfully made the paint look great, until the coating
flaked off. It now looks like a terminal case of automotive leprosy.

You didn't mention if you were planning to do this at home, or send
the parts out to a plating shop. If you want to do it thyself, try
Alodine 1200, Iridite, or various mutations:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_conversion_coating>
All our aluminum marine radio parts and panels were dip treated with
1200, whether painted or exposed. Same with some painted aircraft
parts:
<http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-alodine-1201-gallon.html>
<http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-alodine-1001-gallon.html>
You might want to start with a patch kit:
<http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-592726-brush-alodine-120-kit.html>
Depending on concentration, it will produce a gold to brown color.
Also available in clear, yellow and green.

Alodine vs Anodize:
<https://www.finishing.com/448/95.shtml>

Oddly, I've never tried Alodyne 1200 on a polished surface. Therefore,
I don't know which concoction to recommend for polished parts. I
think you can get a better answer by asking on:
<https://www.finishing.com>

You might look into nickel plating on aluminum. It sounds expensive,
but would look really cool:
<http://techmetals.com/aluminumelectroless-nickel%E2%80%A2%E2%80%A2%E2%80%A2-a-choice-finish/>
<https://www.finishing.com/80/41.shtml>

A thin coating of some kind of clear coat paint should work, at least
until it wears off. Since it's rather messy trying to clean up such a
worn coating, I suspect a hard auto wax might be a better choice.

A friend asked me how to protect his shiney new aluminum automobile
wheels. It turned out that the wheels are clear coated with some kind
of

In the astronomical circles, there are silicon monoxide (SiO)
protected aluminum coated mirrors:
<https://www.edmundoptics.com/resources/application-notes/optics/metallic-mirror-coatings/>
I know absolutely nothing about such protected coatings. You're on
your own here.

Also, check on what aircraft owners use on their shiney aluminum
aircraft:
<https://www.brightworkpolish.com>
I would guess(tm) that it's some form of wax or polymer sealer, but
I'm too lazy to check. Airstream trailers also have a shiny aluminum
polish:
<http://vintageairstream.com/polishing/>
See the comments on aluminum metalurgy and "maintaining the shine".

Better cycling through chemistry.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 30, 2017, 1:14:45 PM7/30/17
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I remember when the pre-Rodale _Bicycling!_ magazine had an article by
Fred DeLong on how to anodize bike parts at home. IIRC, he used a 12V
car battery as a power source. Not that I ever did it.

Those were the days a person could frequently learn something from a
bike magazine. Now it's mostly which bike you MUST buy this month, or
which shorts make your legs look sexiest.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Ian Field

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Jul 30, 2017, 1:44:58 PM7/30/17
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"John B." <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f17rnct02dbconrig...@4ax.com...
Polished aluminium forms an oxide layer instantly, you need a polish that
leaves a film in place of what it takes off.

Plating is good if you can find a process that doesn't etch the aluminium
away.

A lot of manufactured items have a durable laquer - but I've never found its
equal in any shops.

If you're really serious about it - go for anodizing.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 30, 2017, 3:18:03 PM7/30/17
to
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:14:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I remember when the pre-Rodale _Bicycling!_ magazine had an article by
>Fred DeLong on how to anodize bike parts at home. IIRC, he used a 12V
>car battery as a power source. Not that I ever did it.

"Anodizing Aluminum Bicycle Components"
<http://www.nonlintec.com/anodizing/>
There are some additional interesting links near the bottom of the
page. More:
<http://www.bryanpryor.com/anodizing/>
<http://astro.neutral.org/anodise.shtml>

"Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
<http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>

>Those were the days a person could frequently learn something from a
>bike magazine. Now it's mostly which bike you MUST buy this month, or
>which shorts make your legs look sexiest.

Hmmm... I should read some of that. After a triple bypass operation,
where the surgeons borrowed a vein from my leg, I could use some
advice on sexy leg fashions and camouflage. Riding with one leg in
shorts, and the other in full length pants, doesn't seem to attract
the ladies.

Drivel: The same thing happened with Home Power Magazine:
<https://www.homepower.com>
Originally (1987), it was full of do-it-thyself articles. However, as
grid tied solar became more popular, it's now mostly product reviews,
code compliance, and politics. I still subscribe, but I sometimes
wonder why I bother. The price of success is pollution.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2017, 8:52:38 PM7/30/17
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avag...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2017, 8:55:21 PM7/30/17
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Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 30, 2017, 9:32:44 PM7/30/17
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John B.

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:01:39 PM7/30/17
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On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:14:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Yes, anodizing can be done with a battery charger, battery acid and a
plastic pot, but what little I have done leaves a sort of "matt"
finish and I wanted a glaring, glossy, finish.

I didn't try urethane clear coat but they might be a solution as the
spray on lacquer didn't work and the thinned epoxy didn't either
although that might have been lack of preparation.

There is a shop here that decants gallon cans of urethane into small
(half pint?) cans so if he has clear coat it would be a cheap
experiment. I'll give it a try next time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:30:29 PM7/30/17
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On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:17:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:14:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>I remember when the pre-Rodale _Bicycling!_ magazine had an article by
>>Fred DeLong on how to anodize bike parts at home. IIRC, he used a 12V
>>car battery as a power source. Not that I ever did it.
>
>"Anodizing Aluminum Bicycle Components"
><http://www.nonlintec.com/anodizing/>
>There are some additional interesting links near the bottom of the
>page. More:
><http://www.bryanpryor.com/anodizing/>
><http://astro.neutral.org/anodise.shtml>
>
>"Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
><http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>

Not to be snooty but I've been polishing things for a lot of years
now, with the proper equipment :-)


>>Those were the days a person could frequently learn something from a
>>bike magazine. Now it's mostly which bike you MUST buy this month, or
>>which shorts make your legs look sexiest.
>
>Hmmm... I should read some of that. After a triple bypass operation,
>where the surgeons borrowed a vein from my leg, I could use some
>advice on sexy leg fashions and camouflage. Riding with one leg in
>shorts, and the other in full length pants, doesn't seem to attract
>the ladies.

In some societies scars were a compliment to male beauty.

>
>Drivel: The same thing happened with Home Power Magazine:
><https://www.homepower.com>
>Originally (1987), it was full of do-it-thyself articles. However, as
>grid tied solar became more popular, it's now mostly product reviews,
>code compliance, and politics. I still subscribe, but I sometimes
>wonder why I bother. The price of success is pollution.

A friend recently recommended "Popular Mechanics" magazine. A
publication that once printed articles about building your own 60 HP
Ford powered midget racer and how to build an arc welder out of an
aircraft alternator, and now publishes articles entitled "does it hurt
to pee on your lawn".

But I do believe that the "modern" (would one say?) type of articles
reflect the interests of the readers. How many people would leave the
comfort of the air conditioned Television Room and the 60 inch TV to
actually get their hands dirty building a midget racer.... or an arc
welder? (Or even know what an arc welder is?)

But the thought comes to mind, are Modern Americans actually intent on
discovering whether one should "pee on the lawn", or not? Sufficiently
so that a national magazine would publish an article concerning what
dirty little boys used to do, with no lessons whatsoever?
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:42:40 PM7/30/17
to
Exactly :-)

>
>Campagnolo classic cranks had a deep clear anodize which is
>more durable but an absolute pain once nicked through.
>Filing out the damage followed up with wet sand and then
>rouge on a cotton wheel leaves a 'hole' in the finish and so
>you're back to the prior paragraph.
>
>If you can accept painted rather than metal aesthetically,
>consult your local auto paint supplier - the guy who sells
>to body shops. Metal etch and two-part primer for aluminum
>are standard items, after which a silver[1] metallic
>catalyzed paint could roughly duplicate the modern Alivio
>type finish.
>
>[1] or pink, whatever.

Well, I don't think "pink" is the correct color for a "man's bike".

I think I will try what Frank suggested, a two part clear coat, as
they now make all kind of magic paints and I know a couple of people
who paint boats professionally that I can ask for suggestions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:44:18 PM7/30/17
to
One 30-something man that I know is remarkably unschooled in technical
or mechanical things. He recently started reading Popular Mechanics.

I must say, it seems to work for him. IMO, the magazine is better than
it was about ten years ago. It seems to have lost some of its macho
attitude, and seems to have added a bit more on how to do things. It's
inspired him to do a few fabrication projects that turned out pretty well.

He seems to like the articles where they disassemble some mechanical
item (like maybe a pressure washer) and explain what's inside. And the
final pages now feature something a dad can make with his kid, which is
a good thing. They've added some stuff that appeals to "foodie" tastes,
as well.

It seems to be a case of meeting the customer where he is, then leading
him on to better things. It's not like the old days, but I think it's
now better than it used to be.

--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

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Jul 30, 2017, 10:54:38 PM7/30/17
to
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 09:22:18 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 16:00:18 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have any suggestions on how, or with what, to coat highly
>>polished aluminum to, at least, reduce the corrosion to a reasonable
>>level? Say a once a year polish?
>
>If you spray or dip on a relatively soft coating, further polishing
>will remove the coating. One of the locals demonstrated the principle
>by polishing his fairly new clear coated vehicle with "light" abrasive
>wax, which successfully made the paint look great, until the coating
>flaked off. It now looks like a terminal case of automotive leprosy.
>
>You didn't mention if you were planning to do this at home, or send
>the parts out to a plating shop. If you want to do it thyself, try
>Alodine 1200, Iridite, or various mutations:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_conversion_coating>
>All our aluminum marine radio parts and panels were dip treated with
>1200, whether painted or exposed. Same with some painted aircraft
>parts:

I learned about polishing way back when and all you need is a
"polishing head" and a number of buffing wheels. I generally use a
flap wheel to get rid of the dings and dents and then go through three
grades of compound.

><http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-alodine-1201-gallon.html>
><http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-alodine-1001-gallon.html>
>You might want to start with a patch kit:
><http://www.skygeek.com/henkel-592726-brush-alodine-120-kit.html>
>Depending on concentration, it will produce a gold to brown color.
>Also available in clear, yellow and green.
>
>Alodine vs Anodize:
><https://www.finishing.com/448/95.shtml>


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)
The preservative coatings sound like what I want. I tried wax but it
seems to come off fairly quickly from crank arms, I assume because
your shoes hit them occasionally and perhaps the special coatings
would work better.... although one probably doesn't run their
airstream trailer up against people's shoes too often :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

James

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Jul 31, 2017, 1:46:47 AM7/31/17
to
On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:
>
>
> The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
> to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
> beautifier :-)
>
>

Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

--
JS

John B.

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Jul 31, 2017, 2:24:50 AM7/31/17
to
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:32:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 17:52:34 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>A KNOCKOUT
>>https://media.defense.gov/2007/Oct/24/2000438068/-1/-1/0/071024-F-1234S-008.JPG

At about the end of the internal combustion "fighter" era I was
stationed at a base that was training foreign air force, that we had
given F-51's to, how to fly them. We also had a squadron of T-33'sw
and there was much discussion about which was the better. The jets
were much faster so one of the F-51 pilots challenged the T-33 guys
for a test. Engine start to 10,000 ft. and rather surprisingly, to the
T-33 guys, won the bet.
No turrets :-)

>"Doc" also flew at Oshkosh this week:
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgdEI3-GaAg>
>(Mostly at beginning and again at end of video).

If the tail number is authentic 44-6972 was in the 9th Bomb Group, at
Tinian Island in 1945 and damaged by another aircraft that crashed on
takeoff.

--
Cheers,

John B.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2017, 2:35:37 AM7/31/17
to
Watch Victory at Sea's collection of bombers landing on England ?

Forgive if I repeat, I forget

Uncle Charlie was repairing a Jeep clutch under a tarp on the desert as artillery close by fired at Rommel.

Officer walked m asked if he was Charlie Beaudry.

C said yes the officer asked if C wanted to learn how to fly a plane.

C asked

'Where does this happen' ?

Officer said, 'in England'

C, 'I'll get my clothes'

O, ' we'll get you new in England. Get in the jeep n on the plane.

I gave Colling $400 for a ride on their bomber... n this is what I experienced.

A shortage of pilots.

C survived as the Ford dealer in Tucson.

Collings' Mustang is as shiny as AL can be.

You can ask.

John B.

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Jul 31, 2017, 2:49:06 AM7/31/17
to
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:44:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
I can't comment on the magazine as the last previous issue that I had
read was perhaps 15, or more, years ago. As my memory was of a
magazine perhaps 1/2 inch thick with all kinds of detailed how to
build, articles and the issue I read told me how to nail triangular
molding at the edge of a ceiling (something I'd know since I was a
kid) I gave up in disgust. The "pee on the lawn"issue I read after a
friend recommended it the other day and I've now book marked the site
for occasionally reading.


>He seems to like the articles where they disassemble some mechanical
>item (like maybe a pressure washer) and explain what's inside. And the
>final pages now feature something a dad can make with his kid, which is
>a good thing. They've added some stuff that appeals to "foodie" tastes,
>as well.

One of the problems is that I've been working around mechanical
devices since I was about 12 years old and while a pressure washer
might be a mystery to some I can pretty well guess what must be inside
the thing by seeing what it does.

Probably the first pressure washer I ever saw was at an oil field in
Irian Jaya. It had a 6 cylinder 100 HP Caterpillar engine driving it
and it would strip electrical wires off an engine, strip paint off the
cab, break truck windshields and severely damage a human if you hit
him with the spray. After about the first two weeks of trying to use
it they abandoned it.

I suppose the next pressure washer I saw was 30 or so years later, in
Home Pro, a tiny little thing you could pick up with one hand :-)

>
>It seems to be a case of meeting the customer where he is, then leading
>him on to better things. It's not like the old days, but I think it's
>now better than it used to be.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Jul 31, 2017, 5:01:29 AM7/31/17
to
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Jul 31, 2017, 7:25:12 AM7/31/17
to
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:01:24 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
After James' post I did a little research on protective aluminum
coatings relating to the aircraft industry and there are hordes of
them. There is even a Boeing T-9 that you spray on and is supposed to
penetrate all the nooks and crannies and turn to wax in 5 or 5 days.
(sounds like a super chain lube :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 31, 2017, 7:56:45 AM7/31/17
to
Well, some of us here are A) pretty damned old, and B) very experienced
with mechanical and/or electrical things. It's unlikely a mass market
magazine is going to teach us much.

Bicycling parallel: I've got a foolishly large collection of bicycling
books. Back in the 1970s, there weren't as many on the market, but I
bought every one I could find.

Gradually I realized that I was learning less and less from each one,
simply because there was less and less I didn't already know.


--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

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Jul 31, 2017, 9:24:53 AM7/31/17
to
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:56:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
It has reached the point that when I recklessly buy a bicycling
magazine at an airport, to have something to read on the flight, I
soon curse myself for forgetting just how awful they have become.

I remember when bike magazines were full of such things as the proper
way to adjust the seat angle and fore and aft position or the saddle
height - so that sitting on the seat with the pedal down the heal
should rest on the pedal with the leg straight. Or the handle bar
position so that when in the drops the handle bars should obstruct
your view of the front axle.

In retrospect they weren't all perfect suggestions but they were close
enough so you could ride long enough, in reasonable comfort, to decide
for yourself how you wanted the bike set up.

Now the magazines seem to recommend the XYZ fitting machine where, for
only $100, you can have your bicycle fitted to your exact physical
dimensions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2017, 10:11:12 AM7/31/17
to
As I recall they even used to have interesting articles. That stopped when editors stopped being able to spell or edit.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2017, 10:18:50 AM7/31/17
to
On Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 7:30:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>
> But I do believe that the "modern" (would one say?) type of articles
> reflect the interests of the readers. How many people would leave the
> comfort of the air conditioned Television Room and the 60 inch TV to
> actually get their hands dirty building a midget racer.... or an arc
> welder? (Or even know what an arc welder is?)
>
> But the thought comes to mind, are Modern Americans actually intent on
> discovering whether one should "pee on the lawn", or not? Sufficiently
> so that a national magazine would publish an article concerning what
> dirty little boys used to do, with no lessons whatsoever?

When I show up with a battered old frame and end up with a showpiece the Mexicans get it and the Americans ask, "Where did you ever find a bike in that condition?"

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2017, 10:22:31 AM7/31/17
to
The Russian MIG pilots in Korea discovered the same thing and had to work out a one high speed pass strategy rather than try a dog fight.

John B.

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Aug 1, 2017, 12:57:09 AM8/1/17
to
I have found "old steel bikes" at second hand bike dealers that might
have odds and ends of shifters and derailers but a perfect frame which
I could rebuild. The last one, which Andrew reckoned was an old
Japanese made bike, had when stripped, a frame and fork that weighed
almost exactly what my "custom made" Columbus "SL" tube frame weighed.

At the big monthly "bicycle swap meet" I see Eddy Merckx bikes old
enough to have the rear brake cable clips on the top of the top tube,
tubular tires and all the goodies but unfortunately the sellers know
exactly what they have got :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Aug 1, 2017, 1:07:08 AM8/1/17
to
I was in B-29 squadrons, first a bomb squadron and secondly a
reconnaissance squadron. One of the RB-29's was shot down off a
Russian held island just north of the northern most Japanese island. A
couple of MIGS made a firing pass and hit the vertical fin and an
outboard wing tank and the aircraft commander ordered the gunners not
to fire back.

I later made a rather disparaging comment about the "don't fire" order
and a gunner, who I was speaking to, told me that the central fire con
troll system in the B-29 was hard wired for a target speed so much
slower then a passing MIG that if you hit it a miracle had just
happened.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Theodore Heise

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Aug 1, 2017, 10:29:00 AM8/1/17
to
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:42:36 +0700,
John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:14:15 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >On 7/30/2017 4:00 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> I've got quite a few aluminum bits and pieces from older
> >> bikes that are pretty shoddy looking with nicks and dents and
> >> corrosion. I can clean them up with a "flap" wheel and then
> >> polish then with the usually buffing wheels and decreasing
> >> compound grits until they have a high polish but once back on
> >> a bicycle again they seem to corrode rather rapidly and in a
> >> few months end up looking sort of "splotched" and dull, which
> >> of course is exactly what bare aluminum does in contact with
> >> air.

> >Classic French equipment in bare aluminum looks fantastic with
> >Simichrome or any similar metal polish on a cotton cloth.
> >Trouble is, as we both found, regular cleaning and polishing is
> >required to maintain that finish.
> >http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/mikipv9.jpg
>
> Exactly :-)

> I think I will try what Frank suggested, a two part clear coat,
> as they now make all kind of magic paints and I know a couple
> of people who paint boats professionally that I can ask for
> suggestions.

Let us know how it goes. I have a great Rodriguez tandem, that
looks lovely when polished up with Simichrome. It doesn't dull
that quickly on its own, but sweat and body contact take the shine
away in a hurry.

By the way, this bike is for sale!

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> Bloomington, IN, USA

Doug Landau

unread,
Aug 1, 2017, 2:09:36 PM8/1/17
to

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Aug 1, 2017, 10:33:02 PM8/1/17
to
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:30:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:17:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>>"Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
>><http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>

>Not to be snooty but I've been polishing things for a lot of years
>now, with the proper equipment :-)

Bah... My ancestors were all Polish and nobody knows more about
polish than the Polish.

If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
the world.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Aug 1, 2017, 10:47:18 PM8/1/17
to
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:09:31 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
<doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

>OK, but remember, appearance a predictions in Popular Mechanics is a sure-fire guarantee that it will never come true

Yes, but they're still trying to get it right:

"The Future That Never Was: Pictures from the Past"
<http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/g462/future-that-never-was-next-gen-tech-concepts/>
Actually, it looks like they got a few things right.

"110 Predictions For the Next 110 Years" (2012)
<http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a3120/110-predictions-for-the-next-110-years/>
Hmmm... no mention of bicycles in the future. Maybe it will be
replaced by jet or rocket powered backpacks?

John B.

unread,
Aug 1, 2017, 11:11:52 PM8/1/17
to
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:09:31 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
<doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

I remember, it must have been in the late '40's or '50's that the
Popular Mechanics had an article about flying automobiles and
predicted that we'd all be flying about in our cars.

By the way, a 100 MPG auto is feasible. The record was 149.95 MPG with
a 1947 Studebaker in 1949 which was increased to 376.59 MPG with a
1959 Opel in 1973 and the current world's record is 12,665 mpg (US
gallon) although not set with an automobile that the average man would
want to drive.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 2:42:45 AM8/2/17
to
On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:32:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:30:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:17:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>>"Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
>>><http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>
>
>>Not to be snooty but I've been polishing things for a lot of years
>>now, with the proper equipment :-)
>
>Bah... My ancestors were all Polish and nobody knows more about
>polish than the Polish.
>
>If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
>the world.

Liebermann is Polish?

I read that the last Calvary charge, or at least the last one engaging
a substantial number of troops was in 1942 when "about 600 Italian
cavalrymen charged some 2,000 Soviet foot soldiers armed with machine
guns and mortars". They apparently charged, using saber and hand
grenades and rode through the Russian formation and then charged back
through the formation to return to their own lines.
--
Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 9:09:58 AM8/2/17
to
On 8/1/2017 9:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:30:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:17:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>> "Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
>>> <http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>
>
>> Not to be snooty but I've been polishing things for a lot of years
>> now, with the proper equipment :-)
>
> Bah... My ancestors were all Polish and nobody knows more about
> polish than the Polish.
>
> If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
> the world.
>

Although Slavomir Rawicz may have just made it up[1], his
account of Polish cadets with sabers on horseback against
Panzer tanks is an image for all time.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/long-walk-slavomir-rawicz/1100305807

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


cycl...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 9:43:43 AM8/2/17
to
On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 11:42:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:32:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:30:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:17:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>wrote:
> >>>"Tutorial: Polishing Bicycle Parts"
> >>><http://theradavist.com/2009/10/tutorial-polishing-bicycle-parts/>
> >
> >>Not to be snooty but I've been polishing things for a lot of years
> >>now, with the proper equipment :-)
> >
> >Bah... My ancestors were all Polish and nobody knows more about
> >polish than the Polish.
> >
> >If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
> >the world.
>
> Liebermann is Polish?

Exactly where did you think that Hitler got so many Jews to murder?

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 12:15:15 PM8/2/17
to
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 13:42:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
>>the world.
>
>Liebermann is Polish?

German. My parents are from Krakow, Poland and had a very different
and unpronounceable last name. After WWII, the only European country
that wasn't totally trashed was Germany, so they emigrated there. I
was born in Munchen, Germany. When we later came to the USA, we took
a German relatives last name. Unfortunately, my parents neglected to
change my first name, which became a problem in skool. When we later
obtained US citizenship, I took the opportunity to change my first
name. After that, I was fully Americanized.

>I read that the last Calvary charge, or at least the last one engaging
>a substantial number of troops was in 1942 when "about 600 Italian
>cavalrymen charged some 2,000 Soviet foot soldiers armed with machine
>guns and mortars". They apparently charged, using saber and hand
>grenades and rode through the Russian formation and then charged back
>through the formation to return to their own lines.

Something like that. I guess the Italians followed the Polish bad
example. I dunno about the hand grenades. Tossing grenades in the
middle of a densely packed cavalry charge, on open ground, is going to
produce collateral damage.

Until I just read the following pages,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty>
<http://www.polamjournal.com/Library/APHistory/Cavalry_Myth/cavalry_myth.html>
I had thought that the Polish cavalry really did try to attack German
tanks at the start of WWII. Apparently, this was not true.

AMuzi

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 1:07:01 PM8/2/17
to
Interesting item on that page regarding autumn 1939:
"Each single-turret version of these Polish 7TP tanks
carried a 37mm main gun and up to 17mm of armor plate. They
were superior in both armor and armament to most of the
invading German tanks, and they were the world’s first
diesel powered tanks to see action. "

Yet the richly detailed masterwork _Nomonhon_ [1] says that
at the start of skirmishes in 1938 there were mixed diesel
and gasoline tanks and armored cars on both sides but the
gasoline vehicles proved so fatal to their crews that at the
end, summer 1939, mostly diesel were fielded.

As regards 'action', Zhukov rolled up the Kwantung Army like
a used carpet with 75% casualty rate (45,000 of the
60,000-man force)

[1]
https://www.alibris.com/Nomonhan-Japan-against-Russia-1939-Alvin-Coox/book/4709995?matches=37

John B.

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 10:01:30 PM8/2/17
to
While the reality wasn't against tanks, two squadrons, about 250
strong, of the 18th Pomeranian Uhlan Regiment, charged a group of the
German's 76th Infantry Regiment, in a clearing and routed them.

"The charge was successful, the German infantry unit was dispersed,
and the Poles occupied the clearing. However, German armored
reconnaissance vehicles appeared from the forest road, the Polish
units came under heavy machine gun fire and gallop for cover behind a
nearby hillock. "About a third of the Polish force was dead or
wounded. On the other hand, the German advance was halted long enough
to allow the withdrawal of Polish 1st Rifle battalion and National
Defence battalion Czersk from the nearby battle of Chojnice."

In essence, the Calvary charge was a success.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 10:15:54 PM8/2/17
to
Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
tactics rather then equipment.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Aug 2, 2017, 10:49:18 PM8/2/17
to
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
>the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
>the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
>track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
>German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
>tactics rather then equipment.

The early German tanks used for the invasion of Poland and France were
partly from the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia:
<http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tech/land/tank/cou/tc-cz.html>
These gasoline powered tanks were tolerable if they were built prior
to about Oct 1938, and really shoddy after the Nazi's took over the
rest of Czechoslovakia in Mar 1939.

John B.

unread,
Aug 3, 2017, 12:47:45 AM8/3/17
to
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 19:49:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
>>the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
>>the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
>>track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
>>German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
>>tactics rather then equipment.
>
>The early German tanks used for the invasion of Poland and France were
>partly from the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia:
><http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tech/land/tank/cou/tc-cz.html>
>These gasoline powered tanks were tolerable if they were built prior
>to about Oct 1938, and really shoddy after the Nazi's took over the
>rest of Czechoslovakia in Mar 1939.

I knew that German tanks were made in Russia in the early days as the
Treaty of Versailles forbid the Germans from having them. They were
referred to as tractors in discussions I believe.

The first fully German designed and made tank was the Panzer I, of
which about 1,500 were built and a few actually used in the Spanish
Civil War in 1936.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Doug Landau

unread,
Aug 3, 2017, 1:44:26 PM8/3/17
to
that was all quiet on the western front

Ashevilliot

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Aug 3, 2017, 8:35:45 PM8/3/17
to
On Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 8:52:38 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> A KNOCKOUT
>
> https://media.defense.gov/2007/Oct/24/2000438068/-1/-1/0/071024-F-1234S-008.JPG

The shine lasts for the airshow, then begins to turn dull. I have seen polished aluminum planes fly into Oshkosh already splotched from moisture and bugs. The owners get out and expend tremendous elbow grease with cornstarch to remove some of the splotching. By the end of the airshow, the aircraft, in this case a P-51, will have already begun to turn.

Ashevilliot

unread,
Aug 3, 2017, 8:55:10 PM8/3/17
to
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James <ja...@gmail.com>
I have used lots of alodine on aircraft aluminum, but not to preserve a shine. I used it either to stop corrosion, which 2024 is susceptible to, or to get the aluminum ready to paint.. There is one aluminum conversion treatment (Aircraft Spruce) that does not leave the aluminum yellowish but it won't preserve the luster. All of the aluminum chemical treatments are designed to leave an etch on the aluminum so that paint will adhere to it.

Most 2024 aluminum sheet comes "alclad," i. e., it is clad with anodized micro-coating of pure aluminum to retard corrosion. The pure aluminum, as opposed to the copper-aluminum alloy, forms a protective oxide layer. 2024 without alclad will corrode like crazy, especially in humid environments.

I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode like crazy too.

John B.

unread,
Aug 3, 2017, 11:45:43 PM8/3/17
to
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
<jimm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James <ja...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
>> >> to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
>> >> beautifier :-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
>> >coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
>> >scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.
>> >
>> >Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.
>>
>> Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
>> then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
>> painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.
>>
>> I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
>> probably work well.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>

>
>I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges
which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode
like crazy too.

Interesting. What aircraft? I would have thought that the extra cost
of magnesium would preclude its use for something like hinges.
--
Cheers,

John B.

cycl...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 9:38:54 AM8/4/17
to
Magnesium is five times more common than aluminum so really is shouldn't cost more.

AMuzi

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 9:49:46 AM8/4/17
to
I do not know from airplanes. However here are
prices for magnesium:
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/magnesium/6-month/

prices for aluminum:
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/aluminum/6-month/

Note that titanium is extremely plentiful but refining and
processing (not to mention fabrication) costs make it not so
cheap to the end user.

Ashevilliot

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 10:33:54 AM8/4/17
to
The hinge is an alloy, not pure magnesium. There are three on each wing. These alloys add lightness, even better than aluminum. I bought a few spares a decade or so ago after one of my hinges broke because of corrosion. $2 apiece from an old bush pilot in upstate New York. The spares I treated with a chemical wash, probably a chromic acid solution, manufactured for the purpose. Then I painted with chromate paint, another coating to hedge against corrosion.

The aircraft is a '46 Taylorcraft manufactured in Alliance, Ohio.

Lots of aircraft and aircraft engines have magnesium parts. Some of the old VW crankcases were castings of magnesium. You can take drill filings and burn them. They make spectacular hot fires.

I have rebuilt recip aircraft engines in which the oil sump and the rear accessory case (for oil pump and magnetos) were magnesium castings. They are beautiful parts but quite delicate when you're wrenching on them.

http://www.univair.com/taylorcraft/view-all/1553-2-taylorcraft-aileron-hinge-bracket/

Take a look at the bronze bushings.

Yes, if you buy these parts new, they are quite expensive. This hinge is elongated to permit the "up" aileron's leading edge to protrude down into the airstream and cause a corresponding drag when the draggy "down" aileron (which is lifting that wing) is actuated. It's quite a neat idea, learned long before WWII of course, to decrease yaw and foster coordinated flight when the aircraft is in a turn. You also have to step on the rudder pedals in a turn. And keep the ball centered. These are called "Frise" ailerons, probably named after some aero engineer named "Frise." [Yep it was a Brit engineer who invented them. I just looked it up.]

Now you guys all go out and get some flight instruction, or just learn on your own like Orville and Wilbur and Cale did. More fun than anything else you can do with your clothes on.

Great old aero engineer Nick Jones once told me that NASCAR champ, Cale Yarborough, bought himself a Piper Cub (also designed by C. G. Taylor, btw) and checked himself out in it that afternoon. The next day he checked out a couple of his buddies in it. Some people are just naturals at flying. If you're good on a bike, you can fly! Plant the tailwheel first on landing and don't ground loop it.

Ashevilliot

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 12:28:50 PM8/4/17
to
Well, fellers, I'm a gittin' old and fergitful. The bracket is magnesium, but the hinge with the hinge pin fitting, and a press-in bronze bushing, is steel. I went and looked mine up and looked at them stashed lovingly in the basement.

And the Frise aileron was invented with the intention to reduce stick (or yoke) forces in a turn. The longer the wing, and the faster the aircraft, the greater the stick forces. Of course, a Taylorcraft (with a 36' wing) is a pussycat to fly, although its airfoil is not as forgiving as a Cub's. I had an old bushplane instructor tell me once that he'd start a student on a Cub and once he had a few hours soloing he'd put the student in a Taylorcraft, which is a little faster and tends to float on landing. This prank would scare the hell out of a student because while the Cub will come down quickly when landing, a Taylorcraft will continue wanting to fly and the student will almost run out of runway.

John B.

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 9:26:27 PM8/4/17
to
Whether it is refining costs I do not know but aluminum ingots go for
around $1.89/kg and Magnesium seems to be about $2.26/Kg. As for use
the Wiki reports that "As of 2013, magnesium alloy consumption was
less than one million tons per year, compared with 50 million tons of
aluminum alloys."
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

unread,
Aug 4, 2017, 9:45:42 PM8/4/17
to
The KC-135 (Boeing 707) suffered from inboard aileron trim tab hinge
problems and we used to get called on to replace the hinges, which
were an aluminum forging? Casting? But these were much smaller then
hinges you show in your reference.

I not familiar with current regulations but couldn't you paint the
hinges with a two-part paint to prevent corrosion?

>The aircraft is a '46 Taylorcraft manufactured in Alliance, Ohio.
>
>Lots of aircraft and aircraft engines have magnesium parts. Some of the old VW crankcases were castings of magnesium. You can take drill filings and burn them. They make spectacular hot fires.
>
>I have rebuilt recip aircraft engines in which the oil sump and the rear accessory case (for oil pump and magnetos) were magnesium castings. They are beautiful parts but quite delicate when you're wrenching on them.
>
>http://www.univair.com/taylorcraft/view-all/1553-2-taylorcraft-aileron-hinge-bracket/
>
>Take a look at the bronze bushings.
>
>Yes, if you buy these parts new, they are quite expensive. This hinge is elongated to permit the "up" aileron's leading edge to protrude down into the airstream and cause a corresponding drag when the draggy "down" aileron (which is lifting that wing) is actuated. It's quite a neat idea, learned long before WWII of course, to decrease yaw and foster coordinated flight when the aircraft is in a turn. You also have to step on the rudder pedals in a turn. And keep the ball centered. These are called "Frise" ailerons, probably named after some aero engineer named "Frise." [Yep it was a Brit engineer who invented them. I just looked it up.]
>
>Now you guys all go out and get some flight instruction, or just learn on your own like Orville and Wilbur and Cale did. More fun than anything else you can do with your clothes on.
>
>Great old aero engineer Nick Jones once told me that NASCAR champ, Cale Yarborough, bought himself a Piper Cub (also designed by C. G. Taylor, btw) and checked himself out in it that afternoon. The next day he checked out a couple of his buddies in it. Some people are just naturals at flying. If you're good on a bike, you can fly! Plant the tailwheel first on landing and don't ground loop it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Doug Landau

unread,
Aug 8, 2017, 1:40:03 PM8/8/17
to

> Great old aero engineer Nick Jones once told me that NASCAR champ, Cale Yarborough, bought himself a Piper Cub (also designed by C. G. Taylor, btw) and checked himself out in it that afternoon. The next day he checked out a couple of his buddies in it. Some people are just naturals at flying. If you're good on a bike, you can fly! Plant the tailwheel first on landing and don't ground loop it.

Anybody can fly an aeroplane, alright?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i415QwSj0Og&t=43s

Ashevilliot

unread,
Aug 9, 2017, 2:28:24 PM8/9/17
to
Excellent. That's a great airplane, a Beech 18, I think. If you're gonna crash, that's a great airplane to crash in because of its monocoque construction its stresses are in the skin.

Go to 4:33. Bikes and planes work better when you add lightness.

Here's another great "tricked" Cub which won the shortest landing roll, Valdez, AK at just a little over 10'. Empty weight on that delicate little thing is 800 lbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo7-BuNiP6Y

My life has been blessed with bicycles, airplanes, and motorcycles. I'm 72 and got a hankering to move to Valdez, Wasilla, or Palmer.

Tosspot

unread,
Aug 9, 2017, 3:09:12 PM8/9/17
to
Any fool, can fly. Takes an expert to land.


Frank Krygowski

unread,
Aug 9, 2017, 5:19:31 PM8/9/17
to
On 8/9/2017 2:28 PM, Ashevilliot wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-4, Doug Landau wrote:
>>
>> Anybody can fly an aeroplane, alright?
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i415QwSj0Og&t=43s
>
> Excellent. That's a great airplane, a Beech 18, I think. If you're gonna crash, that's a great airplane to crash in because of its monocoque construction its stresses are in the skin.
>
> Go to 4:33. Bikes and planes work better when you add lightness.
>
> Here's another great "tricked" Cub which won the shortest landing roll, Valdez, AK at just a little over 10'. Empty weight on that delicate little thing is 800 lbs.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo7-BuNiP6Y
Very impressive. I wonder what its normal airspeed is (or would be with
full covering of the fuselage). And what sort of weather it may be
limited to. Any idea?

--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

unread,
Aug 9, 2017, 10:13:57 PM8/9/17
to
The Piper J-3 was built in a number of versions with engines ranging
from 40 to 65 hp. Catalog listed empty weight was 765 lbs, with the 65
hp engine. Cruising speed for the 65 hp version was stated to be 75
mph.

My father belonged to a flying club that owned a J-3, I believe with
the 40 hp engine, and a steam train could out run it is there was any
wind at all.

They were a bit rudimentary. No brakes and the fuel gauge was a float
attached to a wire that stuck up through the fuel tank cap :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

cycl...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2017, 7:57:21 AM8/10/17
to
And people wonder why I would never get in a private aircraft.

Doug Landau

unread,
Aug 10, 2017, 12:28:11 PM8/10/17
to

> The Piper J-3 was built in a number of versions with engines ranging
> from 40 to 65 hp. Catalog listed empty weight was 765 lbs, with the 65
> hp engine. Cruising speed for the 65 hp version was stated to be 75
> mph.
>
> My father belonged to a flying club that owned a J-3, I believe with
> the 40 hp engine, and a steam train could out run it is there was any
> wind at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeetQ2e6qkg

John B.

unread,
Aug 10, 2017, 8:16:45 PM8/10/17
to
Actually the no brakes thing worked out pretty well on the grass strip
that the flying club used. To taxi took, maybe, half throttle to get
moving and if you went back to idle the thing stopped moving :-)

The wire on a float fuel gauge wasn't fool proof so most people would
just push down on the wire before cranking the engine and if it didn't
pop back up to it's original position they'd take the cap off and peer
in to see how much fuel they had. Here is a photo looking forward
showing the fuel gauge.
http://tinyurl.com/y9k8u8yj

--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Aug 10, 2017, 10:45:40 PM8/10/17
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I did go up once in a J-3 that supposedly flew reconnaissance missions
in the Pacific in WW2. The most memorable part was that after some
banging and slamming, the pilot got the door to stay closed by hooking
some coat hanger wire onto it from the inside.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Lars Lehtonen

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Aug 11, 2017, 2:08:06 PM8/11/17
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Ashevilliot <jimm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's another great "tricked" Cub which won the shortest landing roll, Valdez, AK at just a little over 10'. Empty weight on that delicate little thing is 800 lbs.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo7-BuNiP6Y

That's an airplane trackstand, I'm impressed.

- ---
Lars Lehtonen
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Ashevilliot

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Aug 11, 2017, 2:58:45 PM8/11/17
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The lack of cover on the fuselage will add drag, probably 3 or 4 knots, or 5 mph. Such an airframe is said to be "dirty." My estimate is that with the big prop and 180 hp engine the aircraft will cruise at 80 to 90 mph. But then he's not set up to cruise. He's set up to win the contest, which he did with fire and poetry. Alaskans like to fly with the crows and eagles and cruise up and down the rough terrain and then put down where they can, often on a gravel beach or a tiny strip of land.

With a very clean airframe a pilot has been known to do 213 mph with a 65 hp engine. I saw it done by the late Mike Arnold in his AR-5.

https://youtu.be/FMvzzhLZtNg?t=893

Nick Jones got even more airspeed out of his Lightning Bug w/ 64 hp, probably because of a retractable nosewheel and Nick was an engineer while Mike was self-taught.

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Reflex%20Lightning%20Bug
(Yeah, he went to a higher hp engine, which was a real dog.)

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Reflex%20Lightning%20Bug

The secrets were
1. laminar flow airfoils
2. Wind tunnel data
3. Fairings
4. NACA ducts
5. Slick, lightweight composite construction using Rutan fiberglas

Ashevilliot

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Aug 11, 2017, 3:02:36 PM8/11/17
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Cubs had brakes since the late forties. In the 50's they got hydraulic brakes.

John B.

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Aug 11, 2017, 7:42:49 PM8/11/17
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I can only comment on what I saw and the J-3 that the flying club
owned did not have brakes.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ashevilliot

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Aug 11, 2017, 8:53:15 PM8/11/17
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Oh, I'm sure you are correct. A few J-3's were manufactured in the thirties without brakes. Even when brakes were added, they were not much until they got to be hydraulic. The heel brakes on a '46 Taylorcraft are not strong enough to keep the aircraft from rolling forward during a full-throttle run-up. But they do slow it down, and sometimes a little differential braking can help get the tailwheel to swivel when you want to do a 360 on the ground to check for traffic or scare the hell out of your passenger. I know that from experience.

Ashevilliot

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Aug 12, 2017, 10:33:33 AM8/12/17
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On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 8:16:45 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
That's a great fuel gauge and still successful. All you have to do is replace the cork (which sometimes gets saturated) with a hollow brass float from a Ford carburetor. The brass float has a countersunk bead around it so that it's easy to attach the wire.

> >> --
> >
> >And people wonder why I would never get in a private aircraft.

You just don't know what you've been missing.

>
> Actually the no brakes thing worked out pretty well on the grass strip
> that the flying club used. To taxi took, maybe, half throttle to get
> moving and if you went back to idle the thing stopped moving :-)

It sounds like this aircraft did not have a tailwheel, that it had a tailskid which acted like a brake with the stick pulled all the way back.

>
> The wire on a float fuel gauge wasn't fool proof so most people would
> just push down on the wire before cranking the engine and if it didn't
> pop back up to it's original position they'd take the cap off and peer
> in to see how much fuel they had. Here is a photo looking forward
> showing the fuel gauge.
> http://tinyurl.com/y9k8u8yj
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/piper-cub

About 20,000 Cubs were manufactured up through 1947. When I was growing up they were everywhere and you could buy one for $1k. Now you can't find one for less than $40k, and a nice one is 50 to 60k.

I guess I'll shut up now and go take a bike ride. Thanks for the conversation.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Aug 12, 2017, 3:08:02 PM8/12/17
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What is sort of comical is that I've never flown a private aircraft but military regulations were that you always had to have two men on the controls of military aircraft so when the Aircraft Commander had to take a leak I would sit at the controls of a B52. The pilot even took it off of autopilot and let me fly it.

Doug Landau

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Aug 14, 2017, 12:30:44 PM8/14/17
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On Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 10:44:58 AM UTC-7, Ian Field wrote:
> "John B." <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f17rnct02dbconrig...@4ax.com...
> >
> > I've got quite a few aluminum bits and pieces from older bikes that
> > are pretty shoddy looking with nicks and dents and corrosion. I can
> > clean them up with a "flap" wheel and then polish then with the
> > usually buffing wheels and decreasing compound grits until they have a
> > high polish but once back on a bicycle again they seem to corrode
> > rather rapidly and in a few months end up looking sort of "splotched"
> > and dull, which of course is exactly what bare aluminum does in
> > contact with air.
> >
> > I've tried a number of schemes to preserve the polish such as heavy
> > paste wax and even a coat of clear lacquer or in one case thinned
> > epoxy resin. This wasn't exactly successful as the wax disappears
> > quickly and the lacquer tends to chip and even the thinned epoxy tends
> > to flaked off in places.
> >
> > Shimano seems to coat much of their aluminum bits with some sort of
> > "silver paint" which obviously isn't just that as it seems to last for
> > years.
> >
> > I would prefer the look of highly polished aluminum (without the
> > corrosion) but that obviously will take considerable and continued
> > labour the way I am doing it at present.
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions on how, or with what, to coat highly
> > polished aluminum to, at least, reduce the corrosion to a reasonable
> > level? Say a once a year polish?
>
> Polished aluminium forms an oxide layer instantly, you need a polish that
> leaves a film in place of what it takes off.
>

So are these things clearcoated or something?
https://www.google.com/search?q=american+airlines+DC-10&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&tbm=isch&imgil=NHYcgRqdh8K0qM%253A%253Bv_ldj-zU2MfXZM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fcommunity.infinite-flight.com%25252Ft%25252Famerican-airlines-dc-10%25252F68206&source=iu&pf=m&fir=NHYcgRqdh8K0qM%253A%252Cv_ldj-zU2MfXZM%252C_&usg=__4zCzIpgjEaaJv9bue99bGI6xI7Q%3D&biw=1263&bih=679&ved=0ahUKEwjr9dvRktfVAhUhs1QKHcQ4BwcQyjcIQA&ei=4M-RWeuFLaHm0gLE8Zw4#imgrc=NHYcgRqdh8K0qM:

Frank Krygowski

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Aug 14, 2017, 1:23:34 PM8/14/17
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Planes' skins are made of Alclad aluminum. It's a metallurgical sandwich
with 7071 alloy as the meat, and very thin layers of nearly pure
aluminum as the bread or skin. The pure stuff oxidizes in contact with
the air but the oxide layer prevents further corrosion. That stuff stays
shiny just as aluminum foil does.

Alloys of aluminum corrode differently and much more than pure aluminum.

--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

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Aug 14, 2017, 8:59:16 PM8/14/17
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Most airplanes are built of what is called "alclad" which is an
aluminum alloy, often 2024 which is an aluminum copper alloy, which is
coated with pure aluminum which is, as has been noted, forms an
aluminum oxide coating when exposed to air, which, in turn, protects
it from further corrosion.

So, yes, any shiny aluminum airplanes you see have been polished and
clear coated.

However, as alclad coating is approximately 5% of the sheet thickness
per side you are talking about, perhaps, a coating that is -.001"
thick it is probable that there is very little actual buffing going
on.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0AHap8993U

--
Cheers,

John B.

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