Another Case of those safe CF bikes

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The 2017 Tour of Flanders....

This rider was involved in a single rider crash on a city street lined with people and NO obstructions to run into.

The Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team rides Merida bikes, specifically the Scultura Team and Reacto Team model bikes. Both are full carbon fiber.

I have a picture but of course we cannot post pictures here. The bike broke about 5 inches above the bottom bracket on the down tube and about the same distance from the seat tube on the top tube. It appears that he was uninjured which suggests that he fell into the street lining crowd.

We know that anyone that rides a CF bike is more interested in saving a couple of lbs rather than his own safety but then that is a problem that will solve itself.

[jbeattie]

THE FORKS ON MY SUPERSIX BROKE!!!!!!! After my wife drove under a low overhang with my bike on the roof rack. Time for marriage counseling.

The overhang hit the saddle, ripped it off caught the post and pulled the bike out of the fork mount, ripping off the lawyer-lips and fraying the fork ends. I took it over to Ruckus Composites for repair. They won't warranty forks, so I'll be getting a new pair. Even though the frame took a huge bending load on the downtube at the seatpost, it looks fine. I'll find out from Ruckus on Monday. Waaaaaah. If it's ruined, I'll get an Emonda SL6, which are on sale right now.

I went on a ride today on my Roubaix, which is a pig in comparison. My long-time riding buddy throttled me coming home up the cemetery hill at the end of a spin through the countryside in high heat. Yes, Portland can get hot -- 98 today, 102 tomorrow.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Claus Aßmann]

> We know that anyone that rides a CF bike is more interested in saving a couple of lbs rather than his own safety
> but then that is a problem that will solve itself.

Of course you are completely right. Nobody ever broke a non-CF bike
while "just riding along"...


Hmm, wait, the only time I ever had a bike break while riding it was
a steel bike with steel fork.

But that doesn't fit into your view of the world...

[cycl...@gmail.com]

With details like that who could doubt you? Must have been your Saronni with Columbus MAX tubing. Those forks are breaking every day.

[jbeattie]

Putting aside the potential problems with CF, bikes do break on the Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix. Cobbles can kill even classic components. I remember a slide show Jock Boyer did for the SJBC in the early'80s showing guys breaking Cinelli bars and stems in the Paris Roubaix. I don't know about frames. I also don't think I would ride the lightest production bike on the market over cobbles.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tim McNamara]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

Any bike can be broken under the right circumstances. CFRP bikes seem
to have improved quite a bit over the past decade, although still more
likely to actually fracture in a heavy accident (e.g., a collision).
But it's been a long time since I've heard of one breaking JRA.

That said, I think I would still not be inclined to ride a bike wth
a CFRP fork/steerer- but that might just be my hidebound traditionalism.
I have read touring reports by a guy riding a CF road bike in the
Himalayas, Africa, etc., with nary a frame-related problem in thousands
of miles of rough roads and non-roads (by American standards).
Virtually every pro MTBer and cyclo-crosser rides CF bikes. If they
survive that kind of use, smooth asphalt riding ought to be just fine.
I think the materials and building techniques used have greatly
improved.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Tim - here's the problem. When someone says that they had a steel bike break if truth be known it was almost always a $50 Department Store bike. The CF bikes that are breaking now are $10,000 best of everything.

As my friend who now cannot use his small finger says, any catastrophic failure in this category is one too many.

And what we're having is even overbuilt CF bikes showing cracks after one month. A friend of mine had a Gary Fisher with a lifetime warranty on it. If started cracking and after Trek bought them they honored the warranty and provided him a new frame and fork. The NEW frame and fork cracked at the junction of the downtube and seattube in one month. They replaced that one and the new one seems fine after a year. But if you do not know what to expect do you want to possibly lay your life on the line?

Just this morning I was descending on what used to be a smooth road. Up at 42 mph I hit a series of hard bumps with a car passing me at the same time so that I neither had room to dodge or any way of dodging those bumps.

I would just as soon not have a $10,000 top of the line bicycle break in half at that moment.

[AMuzi]

On 6/25/2017 5:05 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 11:40:31 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 7:52:23 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

I don't know what the statistical failure rates are for any
given product but I can tell you (as I have here before)
that everything breaks with some measurable frequency.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

I just did all that on a CF Roubaix, including a four mile ascent on forest road and dirt trail with babyheads. I used to do that road/trail a lot on my SuperSix before its untimely roof-rack accident. Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.

The two guys I was with were on CF (one on a 10 year old Pinarello), although we did run into a guy riding a Speedvagen http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/speedvagen-about/ (CF forks) He passed us going up Old Germantown and then died a little at the top so we caught back up -- well, I was at the back blocking, so I let the other guys catch up. It was part of my strategy of being old and slow. When the sun shines (102F today), everyone is out on his or her bike.

The Roubaix is a pig compared to the Supersix. I miss that bike, and it descended like riding on a rail. I'll learn on Monday whether CF can stand up to being knocked off a roof rack. The forks are done, but the main frame -- which took the hit at the seat post -- looks like it is in pretty good shape. I hope it is ruined, though, because I want another bike with Shimano and not the SRAM Red. I never warmed to double-tap.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/25/2017 7:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.

I will say, I find fast descents in dappled bright sunshine to be scary.
It's very hard to spot potholes in time, at least with my old eyes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Scarier with dark sun glasses, which I was wearing today (prescription, not fashion). Germantown Road is well paved, so it's pretty low consequence except for the cars. No close calls. No heroic stories, although I could make some up.

My son had an eventful day. He was doing all these spur roads off of Big Cottonwood Canyon in SLC and had a rear-tire blow out. He didn't notice that he had a sidewall cut and went through two tubes and all his CO2 before he figured it out. Life lesson. Luckily, he got a ride from a nice stranger to the bottom of the canyon and then a friend picked him up. He was on expensive Conti Grand Prix which I think are prone to sidewall damage. I know people disagree, but I don't buy them because I got sidewall cuts and Pro Race are so much cheaper.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

In automobile terms that is usually called "over running, or
overdriving your, headlights. The Drivers Training book describes it
as "going so fast that your stopping distance is farther than you can
see with your headlights". They add, "this is a dangerous thing to do"
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Claus Aßmann]

> Must have been your Saronni with Columbus MAX
> tubing. Those forks are breaking every day.

Nope, it was a (quality) German brand (back "in the days" when there
were bicycle manufacturers in Germany) -- and certainly not some
"department store" bicycle, nor a "high end" "extra light" frame/fork,
AFAIR some Reynolds tubes.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Then you should love your $10,000 carbon fiber bike.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 22:56:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski

:<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

:>On 6/25/2017 7:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
:>> Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.
:>
:>I will say, I find fast descents in dappled bright sunshine to be scary.
:> It's very hard to spot potholes in time, at least with my old eyes.

It's hard enough to do it at city riding speeds. Part of my commute
takes me through a neighborhood of dapppled streets, and at certain
times of the year, it's very hard to see potholes, because the sun is
right in my eyes. (Both ways! Not uphill, though, and when there's
snow, the sun is not in my eyes.)

:In automobile terms that is usually called "over running, or

:overdriving your, headlights. The Drivers Training book describes it
:as "going so fast that your stopping distance is farther than you can
:see with your headlights". They add, "this is a dangerous thing to do"
::-)
:--
:Cheers,

:John B.

--
sig 108

[Sepp Ruf]

David Scheidt wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> :Frank Krygowski wrote:
> :>On 6/25/2017 7:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> :>> Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.

The video smells of overconfidence in free lanes behind blind curves.

> :>I will say, I find fast descents in dappled bright sunshine to be scary.
> :> It's very hard to spot potholes in time, at least with my old eyes.

Just send Manzanita Jorge down in front of you, he will hit any kind of
obstacle early enough to alert you to.

> It's hard enough to do it at city riding speeds. Part of my commute
> takes me through a neighborhood of dapppled streets, and at certain
> times of the year, it's very hard to see potholes, because the sun is
> right in my eyes. (Both ways! Not uphill, though, and when there's> snow, the sun is not in my eyes.)

Because the winter sun is under the horizon or because compressed snow still
reflects in in a less specular way than corroded asphalt?

> :In automobile terms that is usually called "over running, or
> :overdriving your, headlights. The Drivers Training book describes it
> :as "going so fast that your stopping distance is farther than you can
> :see with your headlights". They add, "this is a dangerous thing to do"

Overdriving headlights is a bit different from information processing
overload during detection and classification of relatively small, relatively
low-contrast obstacles that are masked by a pluralityTM of high and low
luminance patches.


--
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/A-7D_Corsairs_354th_TFW_at_Korat_1972.JPG/196px-A-7D_Corsairs_354th_TFW_at_Korat_1972.JPG>

[Claus Aßmann]

> Then you should love your $10,000 carbon fiber bike.

Envious much?

How do you know what kind of bike(s) I have?
Maybe I have 4 steel bikes?
For example, a shopping bike, a rain bike,
a commuter, a "road" bike.

Or maybe I have "no name" CF bike(s)?

Oh well...

[David Scheidt]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@safe-mail.net> wrote:

:David Scheidt wrote:
:> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> :Frank Krygowski wrote:
:> :>On 6/25/2017 7:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
:> :>> Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.

:The video smells of overconfidence in free lanes behind blind curves.

:> :>I will say, I find fast descents in dappled bright sunshine to be scary.
:> :> It's very hard to spot potholes in time, at least with my old eyes.

:Just send Manzanita Jorge down in front of you, he will hit any kind of
:obstacle early enough to alert you to.

:> It's hard enough to do it at city riding speeds. Part of my commute
:> takes me through a neighborhood of dapppled streets, and at certain
:> times of the year, it's very hard to see potholes, because the sun is
:> right in my eyes. (Both ways! Not uphill, though, and when there's> snow, the sun is not in my eyes.)

:Because the winter sun is under the horizon or because compressed snow still
:reflects in in a less specular way than corroded asphalt?

The sun is both lower and south of east or west. Chicago is a gird,
with most streets running due east west or north south. AT this time
of year, it's not too much of a problem, because the sun is higher

--
sig 47

[jbeattie]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 9:18:27 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> David Scheidt wrote:
> > John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > :Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > :>On 6/25/2017 7:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > :>> Final descent was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA The bike didn't explode.
>
> The video smells of overconfidence in free lanes behind blind curves.

Sight lines a pretty good, and except for a couple of hair-pins, you can change your turn radius if someone creeps over the line. This road is worse because of the very dappled sunlight (on sunny days) and bad road surface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 -- but it generally has less traffic. Germantown (linked in the last post) is now an arterial. These are all basically in-town or near town descents out of the West Hills. None are that long or fast, but they're fun to link together -- or punishment, depending with whom you are riding. There is one descent where I know one guy got popped crossing the center-line because it is so easy to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oFTXlHoFro -- section starting at 1:30. This guy cuts the lane. Most do. 2:09 -- misses the car.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 9:18:27 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:

I would estimate the speed of that bike at about 30 mph in the fast areas. There were a few spots that appeared to have a round road but not like around here where you can have 2-3" tree root bumps with perhaps five in a row. He was not over-riding his speed/visibility if he has normal vision.

The sun dapples are really dangerous because among other dangers there can be hikers on the road at those points. This is why you wear Polaroid glasses.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 9:30:17 AM UTC-7, Claus Aßmann wrote:
> > Then you should love your $10,000 carbon fiber bike.
>
> Envious much?

Why? I had four top of the line carbon bikes. One of them is so flexy that you can't ride it on a rough downhill, another was so stiff it is unrideable on anything but perfectly smooth road. A Colnago broke it's fork and threw me against a rock wall at 25 mph. A week later my friend's Colnago had the entire steering tube simply fall off. He is a permanent cripple now. A carbon fork fell apart while I was riding at about 5 mph dumping me on my face and giving me a concussion so that I was walking around like a zombie for 2 1/2 years. I don't have any memory of half of my life and have to take anti-seizure drugs for the remainder of my life.

But you think that I should be envious of you for daring those things? Actually I'm laughing at you for risking your life for no good reason.

> How do you know what kind of bike(s) I have?
> Maybe I have 4 steel bikes?
> For example, a shopping bike, a rain bike,
> a commuter, a "road" bike.
>
> Or maybe I have "no name" CF bike(s)?
>
> Oh well...

If you rode steel bikes you wouldn't be so adamantly supporting CF as if it's God's gift to humanity.

After all - you had a "quality" German bicycle that broke a fork. I never saw a quality German bicycle if you'll excuse me. (I might note that I've never seen an English bike in that category as well.) All of the top of the line were about the same quality as Schwinn - not bad and the upper levels were fairly good, but hardly what you would call "quality" except for a Paramount a year here and another there. And even those being mass produced could not be trusted as you would a Masi or a Simonetti. The modern French bikes look very good though they seem to be a little heavier than the Italian bikes.

The comparison is this - if you are paying $10,000 for a bicycle you expect them to be the best. So you can only compare them with other bicycles at the very top of the tables. My friend just paid $5,000 for a custom made steel race bike with a Campy group on it. It weighs 20 lbs. My Basso is 22.6 lbs. But also my bike is 4 cm larger than his. And my Campy group is 8 years old. And I have new Continental Gatorskins on it. The Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires are lighter, have noticeably better traction and are belted like the Gatorskin.

Of all of the bikes I've ever ridden absolutely NOTHING has compared to the two or three Basso's I've owned over the years. This one I intend to keep for life.

[Doug Landau]

>... Yes, Portland can get hot -- 98 today, 102 tomorrow.

Oh wow I did not know that

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/26/2017 8:50 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> >... Yes, Portland can get hot -- 98 today, 102 tomorrow.
>
> Oh wow I did not know that

I'm in Northeast Ohio. My kid lived in Portland for years.

Back then, I looked up climate data and found the two areas seemed
rather similar in overall annual averages. But in practice, summer and
winter are very different there.

One big difference seems to be this: when NE Ohio gets summer heat, it
comes up from the Gulf of Mexico and is soaked with humidity. 90
Fahrenheit can feel like 100. But when Portland gets summer heat, it
comes up from near-desert areas. The humidity is much lower.

Example: This Friday, both Jay's area and my area are predicted to have
a high temperature of 83 degrees in the afternoon. But Jay's humidity
is predicted to be 38% with a dew point of 55 Fahrenheit. Our humidity
is predicted to be 59% with a dew point of 67.

Dew points anywhere above 60 feel muggy. 67 will feel like a swamp.
Sweat won't evaporate, and a one mile ride to the local beer store will
have me literally dripping.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Errrr - Frank - I think that Doug is talking about Portland, OR. After a really wet and cold winter we're having a rather warm June. July bodes cooler than normal.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It typically isn't that muggy, but it can be on rare occasion, but not like the Midwest or anywhere east of the Rockies. No cicadas or fireflies either. No mid-afternoon summer squalls and lightning storms, although we had some brief rain and lightning yesterday -- which was a nice respite from the heat.
It goes to show you how wimpy I am when, after a two day heat wave, I'm happy to get a little rain.

Where Doug lives is perfect weather and riding, and it smells good, too. I miss the smell of bay and eucalyptus. Fir forests smell so bland.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

My experience with Conti Gatorskins is similar. Aside from being
undersized and a bear to mount onto shallow rims I had too many
premature side wall failures. These are not cheap and when you have to
trash an otherwise perfectly good tire at 1000mi because the side wall
is gone that is sad. When one held I could milk 2500mi out of them on
the rear before the tread was through.

I switched to CST Conquistare but their tread wears much faster. Cost
less than half though. Way better side wall sturdiness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Doug Landau]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/26/2017 8:50 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> > >... Yes, Portland can get hot -- 98 today, 102 tomorrow.
> >
> > Oh wow I did not know that
>
> I'm in Northeast Ohio. My kid lived in Portland for years.
>
> Back then, I looked up climate data and found the two areas seemed
> rather similar in overall annual averages. But in practice, summer and
> winter are very different there.
>
> One big difference seems to be this: when NE Ohio gets summer heat, it
> comes up from the Gulf of Mexico and is soaked with humidity. 90
> Fahrenheit can feel like 100. But when Portland gets summer heat, it
> comes up from near-desert areas. The humidity is much lower.

So it's the same thing that goes on in SF - the air over the interior usually heats n rises allowing ocean air to come in, but on the very hottest days it not only rises but pushes outwards over the ocean, too

I've never been to portland. I've ridden down the coast. When it's 100 in portland is it also 100 in Astoria, Seaside?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4 Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.

https://www.merlincycles.com/michelin-power-endurance-road-tyre-90799.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Tyres&ucpo=32021&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-FCed8X_EkOoYadCBLMOvRyNp995_UUazVkGrbT8OpYaAlsK8P8HAQ

What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the long term wear I can't tell yet.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

When it gets hot in the valley the wind blows like hell. Sunday the wind was so strong that on a 4% downgrade I couldn't get over 14/15 mph.

I think I am recovering from a bad start to the year and am beginning to get some riding strength back.

[sms]

On 6/24/2017 3:50 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The 2017 Tour of Flanders....
>
> This rider was involved in a single rider crash on a city street lined with people and NO obstructions to run into.
>
> The Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team rides Merida bikes, specifically the Scultura Team and Reacto Team model bikes. Both are full carbon fiber.
>
> I have a picture but of course we cannot post pictures here.

Use Tinypic.com and post a link.

> The bike broke about 5 inches above the bottom bracket on the down tube and about the same distance from the seat tube on the top tube. It appears that he was uninjured which suggests that he fell into the street lining crowd.

>
> We know that anyone that rides a CF bike is more interested in saving a couple of lbs rather than his own safety but then that is a problem that will solve itself.

This is unusual since racers typically replace their bicycles often, so
they don't experience the failures that occur after the frame has been
subjected to events that would lead to CF failure. There must have been
a hidden defect in that frame.

There's no hard and fast rule, some carbon frames break after just a
year, some can go for a decade or more, but the conventional wisdom is
to replace the frame and fork every three years to be on the safe side.
Otherwise you're going to spend more trying to detect flaws that it's
worth, both in time and money/

[Joerg]

Let us all know how many miles compared to your other tires it netted
once you are through the first on the rear wheel. The prices I saw from
US dealers were in the $45-$65 range. That is quite high, considering
that the Conquistare can often be had for about $15 including shipping.
Of course, if the Michelin offers more than 2x the miles that would be
great.

There is a series called "ThickSlick" that still sells her and there and
maybe WTB keeps them in Production. Very heavy but supposedly tough. I
might try one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WTB-Freedom-ThickSlick-700x25c-Sport-Tire-Road-Bike-Commuter-Fixed-Gear-1pc-/302097302038

[jbeattie]

Pro4 Endurance are now discontinued. Order up before all the stock is gone.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

I tried to sell you one of these already but Tom blew my cover, said the tread comes off or something. I think it he conducted a test of one, if any at all, and is blowing hot air, but I'm sure he will disagree.

I would use it myself but I changed commutes and no longer am getting multiple flats per week in the rain.

[Joerg]

Hmm, can't remember discussing ThickSlicks. I thought it was a
house-brand tire from Nashbar or another large cycling supplier. And
nothing against house brands as they can be quite good.

Do you have experience with ThickSlicks or know of others and their
experience? I don't care about weight at all. If the price per mile is
right and they last it's good.

Regarding the CST tire I am very impressed how nice the side walls look
after about 1k miles. Almost like new if I'd wash the bike (which I
don't). However, there is serious flattening on the running surface and
comparing the remaining tread thickness to a fresh one I have I can't
imagine it to last another 1000mi. There also seems to be not TWI and
two contact attempts to CST about it have resulted in no responses.
Which is not a good thing.

[Doug Landau]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.bicycles.tech/shush$20tom%7Csort:relevance/rec.bicycles.tech/zn5IL9505vA/mZV8LYiyDQAJ

I assure you this is nonsense. It certainly looks like it will last for about 5000-10000 miles

[Joerg]

That would be nice but has anyone actually achieved that mileage with
ThickSlicks? Without the tread coming off ...

[Doug Landau]

5000 miles
https://purecycles.eu/blogs/news?page=2

[Joerg]

Thanks. LA isn't nearly as hot as up here, has smoother roads and rarely
any gravel/dirt roads but then I should get at least 3000mi out of one.
That would be great.

What also affects tire life is weight and I am not exactly tiny plus
often carry stuff up from the valley.

So when the last CST is up I'll have to look for a ThickSlick.

[jbeattie]

http://isolatecyclist.bostonbiker.org/2011/02/21/carbon-bicycle-forks-cautions-facts-and-misconceptions/

I used the same set of CF forks on two different aluminum bikes for 15 years. The aluminum bikes broke. I gave the forks away. I put some cheap $69 Nashbar forks on an old steel frame, and the frame later broke. I gave those forks away, too. Both were 1".


-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

Tom would you please go testride this Paramount for me?
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/6166919674.html
Thanks

[jbeattie]

From Ruckus:


"Hello Jay,

We've finished inspecting your bike!

The scope of work to your Cannondale SuperSix EVO includes structurally repairing a large segment of your downtube as well as a smaller segment of your top tube. We estimate it to cost $1000 and could be completed by mid-July.

We were able to inspect your fork and found a few areas of concern. After scanning it with our ultrasound machine, we confirmed that your fork is, in fact, unsafe to ride and should be replaced. We could source and install an ENVE Carbon Fiber Road Fork for you at an additional $385.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed by Thursday, June 29th in order to keep your timeline the same. Or give me a call/email with questions. We're open until 6 Monday - Friday and are happy to answer your questions and respond to any concerns you may have.

If there are more items revealed once we start the repair process we will let you know immediately and the estimate will need to be adjusted based on the scope of work adjustment. We will not exceed the original estimate unless we have confirmed approval from you.

The estimate on the repair on both time and cost is for time in the shop and does not include shipping/delivery. We are not responsible for any small parts that have been left on the frame before arriving at our shop."

New bike!

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 9:58:48 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>

> Use Tinypic.com and post a link.

I couldn't get it to work properly. It downloaded the pictures but wouldn't give me a link.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I just bought two of the Michelin Power Endurance for $70 delivered from a GB company.

I had a set of those "ThickSlicks" but when you cut them the rubber peeled off of the belt. And they cut real easy.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:44:42 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
>
> Tom would you please go testride this Paramount for me?
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/6166919674.html

The PDG-3 was one of the really good ones. Slightly heavier than top of the line frames but handled REALLY well. What in the hell is that monstrosity of a saddle?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4 Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.
>
> https://www.merlincycles.com/michelin-power-endurance-road-tyre-90799.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Tyres&ucpo=32021&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-FCed8X_EkOoYadCBLMOvRyNp995_UUazVkGrbT8OpYaAlsK8P8HAQ
>
> What impresses me the most is that I've gotten only one flat and it was from a goat's head thorn. The traction is a LOT better on the road than Gatorskins are. Though the long term wear I can't tell yet.

A serious question about traction: What sort of road riding lets you
know one make of tire has better traction than another?

I know how to evaluate traction only by exceeding its limit; that is by
skidding when braking, or by sliding out when cornering.

But I've hardly ever skidded when braking except when doing parking lot
exercises to teach quick stopping to other cyclists. And one of my
(only two ever) on-road falls was a slide out, but it was due to winter
road salt. I doubt any tire would have maintained traction.

Granted, I'm very conservative with cornering. I don't ever look like
this:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Gallery/tiretest.jpg

So do others regularly take their cornering to the limit, then note how
the tires behave?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 9:58:48 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:

> On 6/24/2017 3:50 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The 2017 Tour of Flanders....
> >
> > This rider was involved in a single rider crash on a city street lined with people and NO obstructions to run into.
> >
> > The Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team rides Merida bikes, specifically the Scultura Team and Reacto Team model bikes. Both are full carbon fiber.
> >
> > I have a picture but of course we cannot post pictures here.
>
> Use Tinypic.com and post a link.

Let me try this again:

http://i63.tinypic.com/s5ij52.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/29ymecn.jpg

[cycl...@gmail.com]

When you lean the bike over for a turn and you can feel it hit the limit. In the case of a Gatorskin I think that the tire is so rigid that you begin bouncing on the broken pavement around here. The Michelin doesn't seem to do that nearly as soon and so you can continue to lay it over further.

Someone just said that the Pro4 Endurance is now out of production so I'll have to see if the Michelin Power Endurance is as good.

[Doug Landau]

I don't know but the stem looks even worse.

I don't suppose you will be moved by this $10K Cervelo for only $3K :
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bik/6193697940.html

[AMuzi]

Harder tread compounds feel odd in corners as compared to
Michelins.

Absolute traction /in extremis/ is a different matter; I
don't know. I assume other factors outweigh tread material
at that point because pretty much any two-wheeler can skid
with normal braking force.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

They must have a great deal with a freight company. Probably your bank
is going to sock you with a foreign transaction fee now. At least mine
(Bank of America) does.

> I had a set of those "ThickSlicks" but when you cut them the rubber
> peeled off of the belt. And they cut real easy.
>

That doesn't sound good but may have been a production defect. The belt
is supposed to almost bond "into" the rubber.

[jbeattie]

Personally, I have two spots where I test tire traction in wet weather -- the chute into my garage with a tight turn (which is smooth cement) and a short, steep section on my way home -- going up seated and sanding. It's easy to gauge traction at that spot because your rear tire slips out, and moving fore-aft doesn't make a difference. Going down the chute, you can feel how much sliding you get with hard braking. Misjudging in both cases is fairly low consequence, although a guy in my building crashed and broke his him on the chute. Then they put in non-skid, which wore off about 15 years ago. I crashed there on a pair of early Michelin colored tires with a clay based pigment. Downside of sale table finds. I can't tell the difference in traction between two quality tires -- say a Pro4 and a Conti 4000, but some sale table tires are like riding on banana peels, even after break-in.


-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

If I remember correctly all of my tire "punctures" were on gaterskins.
In this case "puncture" refers to something sticking through the tire.
The first was a small nail, a "brad" that penetrated the tread area
and then bent and penetrated the side wall, from the inside.

When the last gaterskin failed I replaced them with cheaper tires and
my puncture rate did not increase. My opinion is that the kevlar layer
in Continental tires is largely an advertising feature.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/27/2017 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
> My opinion is that the kevlar layer
> in Continental tires is largely an advertising feature.

I still think that kevlar belts make tires slower. Perhaps not as much
slower as they did in the 1980s, but slower. Do others agree?

It's a tough thing for me to judge for sure without doing coasting
tests. I suppose I should start recording data using the downhill right
outside my driveway, but it's due to be repaved in the next couple years
(I hope). I'm sure the improvement in smoothness will wreck any data I
collect and try to use for future reference.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Reading about broken bicycles has always made me wonder what happened
"before".

In my very early youth I learned to ride a bicycle by coasting, on my
mate's new bike, down an incline, around a Conner and on to a flat
section of the driveway where we would stop.

In those days all "American" bikes had coaster brakes and I was small
for my age and thus braking was a bit of a problem for me and in my
last foray I ran head on into a trash barrel - a 55 gallon drum full
of garbage. The crash was severe enough they it threw me off the bike
and over the front wheel (and the barrel).

Had that been a CF bike and had the forks failed the next day while
pedaling down to the store for a quart of milk I suggest that the
headline would have been "My forks broke while I was riding at 5 MPH
to the store" and the fact that the bike had been ridden straight into
an immovable object at 10mph the day before would have been ignored.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 09:13:45 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Around a corner ;-(

[John B.]

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 22:10:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/27/2017 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> My opinion is that the kevlar layer
>> in Continental tires is largely an advertising feature.
>
>I still think that kevlar belts make tires slower. Perhaps not as much
>slower as they did in the 1980s, but slower. Do others agree?
>

Frankly I can't tell the difference. I am currently using Bontrager
tires - LBS stocks them and I get a 15% discount - which are somewhat
like tubulars. Thin and supple. I also have a set of wheels with (If I
remember correctly) Panracer tires which I occasionally change to. On,
say a 50 km ride, I can see so difference in average speed.

Or perhaps a more accurate thing to say it is that temperature and
humidify have a far greater effect on my rides then tires :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

How do you like the Conti 4000? I usually use Specialized Pro but my
favorite LBS is dropping Specialized so I'll have to find a replacement
tire. Specialized tires don't seem to be available online.
Do they have good flat protection? Grip? ...

[cycl...@gmail.com]

So what you're saying is that a professional racing team crashed a bike and didn't replace it. I should have thought of that.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The problem as I see it with the Conti is that they have a cross section somewhat like a square. The Michelin is round from one side of the rim to the other. I don't know if this is why they feel better but they most certainly do.

But with the Pro4 Endurance going out of production who the hell knows if the Power Endurance with be any different? That's why I bought a set.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:

Conti 4000 are wickedly expensive and prone to sidewall cuts, IMO. Lou prefers them and can get a good deals in Europe. For me, they are always 20-50% more than Michelins. As for ride and grip, I think the Contis are a bit more plush feeling than Pro4s. I have a Conti front tire on my Roubaix; its 25mm nominal but looks and rides bigger.

Oddly enough, the Conti 4Seasons are heavier and have more rolling resistance than the Pro4s and the 4000, but I really liked them on my Roubaix winter bike. They're just too expensive, so I'm using Pro4 Endurance rear tire right now -- which are good, but I don't think they are as grippy as the regular Pro4s or the 4Seasons, but that impression could be effected by the fact that it's easy to skid my rear wheel on the Roubaix because the disc is so powerful.

Like I said, all the differences are subtle between the high end tires from Michelin or Continental.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Thanks.

I think the Conti 4000s is about the same price here as the Spec Pros
that I use. I guess I'll find out shortly if I like them.

I find Michelins a bit sluggish and hard to mount. Although I just
watched a guy mounting a Conti in the pouring rain Sunday and he didn't
seem to be enjoying it. It was a sidewall cut actually. He hit a piece
of strip metal.

[John B.]

No, what I said was that I believed that the majority of the CF breaks
resulted from something other then a slow ride to the local shop for a
bottle of milk.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 6:29:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>
> >So what you're saying is that a professional racing team crashed a bike and didn't replace it. I should have thought of that.
>
> No, what I said was that I believed that the majority of the CF breaks
> resulted from something other then a slow ride to the local shop for a
> bottle of milk.

That's my whole point John. After talking to the company engineers at some of these bike companies I'm convinced that you can make a CF bike that would last a lifetime. But they cannot quality control every millimeter of the bikes and so they fail at a much higher rate than should be acceptable.

After the way the UCI treated my communication I am quite worried that we're going to have dead riders on the course before they come to their senses.

[Joerg]

When I had my last side wall failure on a Conti Gatorskin I called my
wife to pick me up with her car. I could have put a chunk of cloth in
but I didn't want to go through an hour of wrestling again. Now I
switched to tires with sturdier side walls.

[Doug Landau]

Conti Gatorskins are absolutely awesome. Winter commuting, two or more flats per week, switch to gatorskins, no more flats.

[jbeattie]

I ride Gatorskins, too, and they're relatively problem free. I've had problems with the uber-expensive Conti Grand Prix 4000S II version 10 back-slash zed, etc., etc. The super-tire. It's a very nice riding tire and many people find them to be reliable, but I had some problems and find Pro4s to be fine for me and much cheaper, particularly now that they are going out of production in favor of the latest and greatest "Power" tires from Michelin.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

What sort of problems did you have with the 4000s? You mean like flats
or handling or bad wear or what? Those are probably what I'm switching
too... As for pricing, I know a guy...

[Joerg]

They are great and also very durable. I got around 2500mi out of them on
the rear. However, the side walls are so flimsy that some failed
prematurely. I tried to ignore the first "aneurysm" for a while and then
... *POOF*

In our area it is almost unavoidable to travel along short gravel and
dirt sections during a trip and that's where Gatorskins do not fare well
at all. In contrast, the side walls of the CST Conquistare I have on
there now still look like new after almost 1000mi. It's just that those
tires don't appear to even get remotely close to 2500mi.

On the MTB the contrast between Western and Asian tires is even more
pronounced. I switched to Vee Rubber and they not only have much tougher
side walls but they also last longer. And cost way less. I've still got
a Cheng Shin Rock Hawk to try.

[ab.ch...@rogers.com]

I think it is too small for Tom.
--
Andrew Chaplin

[Frank Krygowski]

Just returned from another tandem ride on Gatorskins. Perhaps I should
knock on wood or offer some sacrifice to appease some god, but so far,
they've been perfect for us.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 11:28:50 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
>
> What sort of problems did you have with the 4000s? You mean like flats
> or handling or bad wear or what? Those are probably what I'm switching
> too... As for pricing, I know a guy...

I had a flat a ride on them. But we have some pretty screwed up roads here. But put on Gatorskins and no problems from then on. The only think is that I don't believe that you can lean into a curve as far as you can on the Michelin.

[Doug Landau]

Disagree. If you and the bike weigh 200, and the tires are pumped up to 100 PSI, then together they will lay down two square inches of contact.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You must be misunderstanding me - I was getting a flat every single ride on Continental 4000's. Changed to Gatorskins and no more flats.

Specialized Armadillos are also really good for no flats and are better traction than Gatorskins but WOW are then expensive.

The Thickskins cut very easy and the rubber would pull back away from the cuts.

The Michelin Pro4 Endurance is probably the best I've used so far but with them discontinuing production in favor of the "Power Endurance" I'll have to see how that works out.

[Joerg]

If you only ride asphalt and have deep rims, they are.

[jbeattie]

The only problem was sidewall cuts. I am still using a Grand Prix front tire on the Roubaix, and its a fine tire. I, my brother and my son have sliced sidewalls on Grand Prix. Again, it could be familial bad luck, but because of the price, I've decided to stick with Michelin.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

yabbut you were saying that the thick cap on the gatorskin will prevent it from conforming to the road as well as the more supple tire, and I'm saying, no it won't. It will still be less grippy cuz of the compound, but not because of the tread thickness

[John B.]

But one can't win races of heavy bikes :-)

And, I suggest that is exactly the point. If you give the average TdeF
rider the choice between a super light bike or an un-bustable bike,
which one will they select?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

For 5 years the 4000S(II) is tested as the best all round tire. Very good wet traction, durable, very few cuts, low rolling resistance and low weight. There are other high performance tires which score higher on one aspect but not overall. Side walls are not their strongest point, so if you ride over rocks the 4000S(II) is maybe not the best choice. Fortunately we have good roads here so the choice for the Conti4000S(II) is a no brainer for me and a lot of my friends. The Michelin Pro was the first high performance tire I used, but I stopped using the Michelins after they introduced the Pro2. Very prone for cuts and not so durable.

Lou

[Duane]

<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 8:28:50 PM UTC+2, Duane wrote:
>> On 29/06/2017 2:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 9:34:02 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
>>>>>>>>>>>> only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
>>>>>>>>>>>> Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.merlincycles.com/michelin-power-endurance-road-tyre-90799.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Tyres&ucpo2021&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-FCed8X_EkOoYadCBLMOvRyNp995_UUazVkGrbT8OpYaAlsK8P8HAQ

Thanks.

I don't ride over rocks very often but I do have to deal with a lot of
potholes and bad roads. If I want a tire to guarantee no cuts in that case
I'd have to buy truck tires. I'm looking for something to prevent puncture
flats as well as the Spec Pros that I use now. I'll try the Contis next
time.

--
duane

[Duane]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 11:28:50 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
>> On 29/06/2017 2:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 9:34:02 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-06-28 11:31, Duane wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/06/2017 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/06/2017 7:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 3:55:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/27/2017 5:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/27/2017 12:23 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can get the latest Michelin Power Endurance tires for
>>>>>>>>>>>> only a little less than the Gatorskins. So far the Pro4
>>>>>>>>>>>> Endurance tires have impressed the hell out of me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.merlincycles.com/michelin-power-endurance-road-tyre-90799.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Tyres&ucpo2021&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-FCed8X_EkOoYadCBLMOvRyNp995_UUazVkGrbT8OpYaAlsK8P8HAQ

Thanks.

--
duane

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 6:57:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>
> If you give the average TdeF
> rider the choice between a super light bike or an un-bustable bike,
> which one will they select?

If you give him the choice of a super light bike with a possible fatal result and a not quite as light bike that is much more likely to get him home, what do you suppose he would select?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

duane - go to the referenced page above and read the reviews.

[jbeattie]

That question was actually raised and answered by the 7-11 team: http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/2000/04/ With the Serotta-built Tru-Temper failures, they went out and bought frames from other makers, including Oregon builder John Slawta at Landshark. http://landsharkbicycles.com/ They sacrificed lightweight for reliability. The peleton isn't crazy -- they complain about the dangers of disc brakes and three-spoke wheels, etc., etc. Unsafe these days, however, means a bike whose wheels keep spinning when its on the ground. Ooooops!

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Read up on "The Goldman Dilemma".

Bob Goldman asked world-class athletes in combat and power sports "If
I had a magic drug that was so fantastic that if you took it once you
would win every competition you would enter from the Olympic Decathlon
to the Mr Universe, for the next five years but it had one minor
drawback, it would kill you five years after you took it, would you
still take the drug?"

He found that more than half said they would take it. This result was
consistent in his findings over a period from 1982 to 1995.
--
Cheers,

John B.