put 5-56/WD-40 on pedal to make it spin or does that dehydrate bearings?

[Emanuel Berg]

I have tried several times to remove pedals in order
to remove dirt and re-fat the bearings to make the
pedals spin. But many times, even tho I used the
correct sized ringwrench (usually 15 mm) it wouldn't
budge. (I don't have a heat gun.)

So I thought, can I solve the problem from outside by
using 5-56/WD-40? I tried that on one bike today and
both pedals, of which one was previously virtually
stuck, both started to spin like crazy.

That seemed almost to easy, so I wonder if there is
a flip side to it. In particular, I wonder if it will
expel the fat from the bearings even more to the
point making them break?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[David Scheidt]

Emanuel Berg <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
:I have tried several times to remove pedals in order

:to remove dirt and re-fat the bearings to make the
:pedals spin. But many times, even tho I used the
:correct sized ringwrench (usually 15 mm) it wouldn't
:budge. (I don't have a heat gun.)

Do you remember that the left pedal has left-hand threads? (That is,
it turns backwards from normal bolts.) It helps a lot to turn the
wrench the right way. If you have help, you can get somone to put
their weight on the opposite pedal while you stand on the wrench,
which is usually enough to get it loose. When you get them out, put
some grease on the threads when reinstalling.)

:So I thought, can I solve the problem from outside by

:using 5-56/WD-40? I tried that on one bike today and
:both pedals, of which one was previously virtually
:stuck, both started to spin like crazy.

:That seemed almost to easy, so I wonder if there is
:a flip side to it. In particular, I wonder if it will
:expel the fat from the bearings even more to the
:point making them break?

WD-40 is basically light oil in kerosene. So, yes, it will wash the
grease out of the bearings.

(English nit: fat is the fat you eat. Grease is what you put on
bearings. It can also mean the kind you eat, usually the undesirable
sort.)
--
sig 55

[Sir Ridesalot]

Wd-40 stands for Water Displacement formula #40. It's not intended as a lasting lubricant.

Are you using a regular spanner or a long handle pedal wrench? If the pedals are on an alloy crank, have not had the threads greased prior to assembly and have ben on for a long time, then they may require considerable force to loosen.

Indeed the left pedal is reverse threaded. Be careful tthat when the right pedal does break loose that it can do so quickly and your knuckles can impact the chainring teeth.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/12/2015 3:09 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
>
> Wd-40 stands for Water Displacement formula #40. It's not intended as a lasting lubricant.

OTOH, I've sometimes added some light oil to a previously greased
bearing, as a time-saving cheat. But I wouldn't use WD-40 for that
unless it was all I had available, and I was planning on doing things
properly very soon.

>
> Are you using a regular spanner or a long handle pedal wrench? If the pedals are on an alloy crank, have not had the threads greased prior to assembly and have ben on for a long time, then they may require considerable force to loosen.
>
> Indeed the left pedal is reverse threaded. Be careful tthat when the right pedal does break loose that it can do so quickly and your knuckles can impact the chainring teeth.

I did once have a mountain bike whose pedals were well and truly frozen
into the cranks. I suppose it's the same corrosion phenomenon that
locks aluminum seatposts into steel frames.

I never did solve that pedal problem, despite application of lots of
penetrating oil, heat, long levers, etc. I was giving the bike away,
but wanted to keep the pedals. I ended up just leaving the pedals as
part of the gift.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

drop in deodorized transmission or gear oil...mix grease with the wd-40mn n drip that mix in pedals in vertical position.

wd-40 is deodorized kerosene

kerosene floats on water so there's no displacement there, wd loosens crap in the system...

on a 'normal' pedal setup not Ashtabula....I'm ignorant on how your pedals connect to crank.

place frame/bb on wood blocks with pedal to be loosend of ground abt 4 inches in the push down power stroke position

place wrench on the pedal mounting bolt and the wrenches other end on block or ground
'
push down with foot...remembering the correct thread direction for loosening

here.

is best doing that with a heated nut and/or heated nut after nut/shaft is clean n soaked with PCBlaster for 2-3 days.

otherwise force of foot may screw the Ashtabula threading

I have a new twist on PCBlaster....twingning a narrow cut coil of paper towel around a wire bag tie...like a rope with wire core.

this assembly wraps tightly around narrow access threading then receives n holds the PCBlaster

BTW or BTBlaster....PC is applied with an artist's painters brush or a q tip off the nozzle NOT sprayed directly on the piece.

The PC Boys over pressurized the PC can rendering pushing directly down on PC an exercise in coating the immediate area with Blaster..

try placing thumb on nozzle n rotating wrist so thumb rolls over nozzle while pushing down...the rolling action not the pushing down will weep Blaster from nozzle not shoot ducks from the pond

[Radey Shouman]

This may seem too obvious to mention, but I have found that quite a bit of
force can be applied by lining the wrench (spanner) up so that it is
fairly close to parallel with the crank, and then squeezing the two
together with one or both hands. No danger of knuckle damage, and no
need to try to immobilize the crank.

--

[Emanuel Berg]

David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> writes:

> If you have help, you can get somone to put their
> weight on the opposite pedal while you stand on the
> wrench, which is usually enough to get it loose.

I didn't try to have someone stand on the opposite
pedal. With "stand on the wrench", you mean pull it?

> When you get them out, put some grease on the
> threads when reinstalling.

Good idea: to put some grease on the threads when
putting the pedal back on.

> WD-40 is basically light oil in kerosene. So, yes,
> it will wash the grease out of the bearings.

So I thought, WD-40 washes the grease out. It is
interesting tho it is so effective getting in.
That leads to the question, is it possible to first
use WD-40 to get the dirt out and get the spin back,
then apply something else from the outside that works
its way in just like WD-40, but then stays there
like grease?

> (English nit: fat is the fat you eat. Grease is what
> you put on bearings. It can also mean the kind you
> eat, usually the undesirable sort.)

OK: you put grease on bearings, but eat fat.

[Emanuel Berg]

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> writes:

> Wd-40 stands for Water Displacement formula #40.
> It's not intended as a lasting lubricant.

Is there a lasting lubricant you can get in from
the outside?

> Are you using a regular spanner or a long handle
> pedal wrench? If the pedals are on an alloy crank,
> have not had the threads greased prior to assembly
> and have ben on for a long time, then they may
> require considerable force to loosen.

I've attempted a 15 mm spanner. It fits exactly but
I've only managed but a few times and I've attempted
this several times.

> Indeed the left pedal is reverse threaded.
> Be careful tthat when the right pedal does break
> loose that it can do so quickly and your knuckles
> can impact the chainring teeth.

Indeed, when I have started to worry about hurting
myself and/or damaging some other part of the bike as
the pedal wouldn't loose that's when I stopped each
time.

Does a heat gun help? I don't have one but I guess
I could get one someday.

[avag...@gmail.com]

NO USE BLUE OR RED LOCTITE ON THREADS....RED IF YOU HAVE A TORCH IN THE FUTURE

then dab linseed oil on the nut/shaft inboard side waterproofing the Loctite.

Loctite prevents precession, decession, absession, and indysession

[avag...@gmail.com]

and obsession

[James]

On 13/05/15 07:25, Radey Shouman wrote:

> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
>>
>> Are you using a regular spanner or a long handle pedal wrench? If the
>> pedals are on an alloy crank, have not had the threads greased prior
>> to assembly and have ben on for a long time, then they may require
>> considerable force to loosen.
>>
>> Indeed the left pedal is reverse threaded. Be careful tthat when the
>> right pedal does break loose that it can do so quickly and your
>> knuckles can impact the chainring teeth.
>
> This may seem too obvious to mention, but I have found that quite a bit of
> force can be applied by lining the wrench (spanner) up so that it is
> fairly close to parallel with the crank, and then squeezing the two
> together with one or both hands. No danger of knuckle damage, and no
> need to try to immobilize the crank.
>

+1

--
JS

[James]

On 13/05/15 08:42, Emanuel Berg wrote:

>
> Does a heat gun help? I don't have one but I guess
> I could get one someday.
>

Be careful. Any plastic bits are at risk of melting. You would need to
heat the crank. The pedal axle will get hot inevitably too. You need
to cool the pedal axle with water or dry ice after heating the whole
area, before trying to undo the pedal.

Careful not to heat the (presumably) aluminium crank too much. I should
think no more than 100-150C.

--
JS

[avag...@gmail.com]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSS


ANDY MUZI SUGGESTED THE HEAT GUN. I haven't had an op to try that, have both heat gun, Mapp gas/O2, and propane.

with Shimano seals, covering seal with 2-3 layers HD aluminum foil will protect the seal...a narrow airspace twen layers helps maybe one with venting, the outside one.

A heat gun kit has a narrow orifice attachment like so:

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m0VxC--yh3D013dlFS3dA0Q.jpg

the contrictor orifice should protect seal and concentrate heat on nut.

from raw power flaming gas the HG seams like a winner.

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 10:25:26 PM UTC+1, Radey Shouman wrote:

Good advice is never too obvious.

Alzo:

You can double the lever length of most spanners by using the crank length as a brace, while using your entire weight and force on the ends. Two ways to do this. 1) Lean the bike against a pole or a pillar and use the pole or pillar to block the pedal while pushing on the spanner, or standing on it. 2. Rotate the pedal to point downwards and the spanner at approx 30 degrees above horizontal, then put your one foot on the pedal and your other foot on the spanner and distribute your weight. If you don't have a helper to hold the bike upright, lean you back against a wall.

Andre Jute
Genius is 99% perspiration

[Sir Ridesalot]

Gads! Do not use locktite as it's simply not needed.

I bought a meat baster at a Dollar store. The baster looks just like a very large syring like you get with a needle. I fill the tube with grease, reinsert the plunger and use it just like a grease gun. The beauty of it is that I don't have to completely diassemble something in order to get more grease into it. I just back off the cones/cups enough to see how clean the inside is. If it's clean then I just inject new grease. If it's dirty I can diassemble it for overhaul, reassemble with a light layer of grease and then top up the grease before snugging the cones against the bearings.

Most pedals are assembled just like wheel hubs. You have the spindle, a cone a washer and then a locknut. The inside part of the pedal spindle nearest the crank side usually has the cone machined on it. To diassemble the pedal you might need to use a flat blade screwdriver to hold the outside cone in place whilst you unthread the lock nut. Of course you need to remove the pedal dust cap (if still tthere) to get at the locknut and cone inside the pedal.

Good luck and cheers.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Unfortunately many pedals only have two flats and very often when the spanner is on either flat the spanner is NOT anywhere near paralell to the crankarm.

Cheers

[David Scheidt]

Emanuel Berg <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

:David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> writes:

:> If you have help, you can get somone to put their
:> weight on the opposite pedal while you stand on the
:> wrench, which is usually enough to get it loose.

:I didn't try to have someone stand on the opposite
:pedal. With "stand on the wrench", you mean pull it?

I actually meant "stand on the wrench". It's the most force most
people can put on a pedal wrench. I assume you're using a pedal
wrench, they're typically longer than a normal 15mm wrench.


:So I thought, WD-40 washes the grease out. It is

:interesting tho it is so effective getting in.
:That leads to the question, is it possible to first
:use WD-40 to get the dirt out and get the spin back,
:then apply something else from the outside that works
:its way in just like WD-40, but then stays there
:like grease?

Some pedals can be disassembled on the crank, and the bearings
repacked with grease. I've done that once, but it was a pain to get
it adjusted right. If there's a dust cap, you can probably jam it
full of grease.

--
sig 88

[avag...@gmail.com]

genius is inserting a large vise grips into the open end wremch

[avag...@gmail.com]

pedal nuts have 2 flats threading in plane with pedal surfaces ?

these here pedals revolve ?

south of the border ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

a deep socket for the inner nut and a socket for the outer nut.

position the inner socket inside the deep socket for the specific pedal by cutting the deep socket. Then cut the deep socket's ratchet end so the deep socket is now tubular...

vise grip the deep socket while torqueing the small end nuhnuhnut socket with what have you.

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 1:08:01 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 5:25:26 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:

The pedals on all my bikes are now VP-191, which have a hex socket inside the threaded end. Very convenient.

Andre Jute

[Sir Ridesalot]

Two flats on a pedal spindle gene. Just like these:

http://www.actiontec.us/Ti_PedalSpindles.jpg

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

A 6mm allen wrench is NOT recommended for the final tightening of a pedal to the crank arm as you can't get sufficient force to really tighten up the pedal. There's no way a 6mm allen wrench will break loose a really stuck pedal spindle either. A 6mm allen wrench is good for spinning on the pedal during installation but a pedal wrench should be used for the final tightening.

Cheers

[Emanuel Berg]

David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> writes:

>> I didn't try to have someone stand on the opposite
>> pedal. With "stand on the wrench", you mean
>> pull it?
>
> I actually meant "stand on the wrench". It's the
> most force most people can put on a pedal wrench.
> I assume you're using a pedal wrench, they're
> typically longer than a normal 15mm wrench.

Aha, yet another wrench! Yes, that explains it.

The wrench I've been using has a 15mm grip and is
twice or thrice as wide as a cone wrench, ~6mm I'd
say. The length should be sufficient to stand on but
as for getting enough power I don't know.

But if I can't find a pedal wrench I'll try this
balance act.

[avag...@gmail.com]

yes...the crank rotates...the open end wrench mouth is angled...block frame/bb and block to free wrench end...the rig is adjustable.

the 6mm is for Jute's pedal ? yeah I broke one a bundesmith or ? with the adjustable swivelball end. With a vise grips....but the part was frozen.

If you have a vise grips then place jaws DOWN AT THE END AT THE PEDAL.
Good for ? 20 pounds ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

place a vise grips in the free end or cut the wrench for a pipe to fit over. IMHO, however....blocking up to the wrench length is prob easier AFTER YOU USE PENETRATING OIL

[Radey Shouman]

genius is inserting the tail end of the large vise grips into a large
box end wrench (ring spanner), and cranking on that until the serious
damage is done.
--

[Radey Shouman]

Some pedal spanners have two openings, one parallel and one at maybe 30
degrees, giving you three chances -- six really since there are two ways
to attack the one set of flats.

--

[Radey Shouman]

Now that's a hard-working imagination. I can't imagine what it means.

--

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 1:29:19 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> I have tried several times to remove pedals in order
> to remove dirt and re-fat the bearings to make the
> pedals spin. But many times, even tho I used the
> correct sized ringwrench (usually 15 mm) it wouldn't
> budge. (I don't have a heat gun.)
>
> So I thought, can I solve the problem from outside by
> using 5-56/WD-40? I tried that on one bike today and
> both pedals, of which one was previously virtually
> stuck, both started to spin like crazy.
>
> That seemed almost to easy, so I wonder if there is
> a flip side to it. In particular, I wonder if it will
> expel the fat from the bearings even more to the
> point making them break?
>
> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

If the pedals are extremely hard to break loose then, if there is a bicycle shop near you, I'd take the bike there as they should be able to remove the pedals for you at very little cost as they'll have a proper tool for that job. Once the pedals are off you can grease the threads and reinstall the pedals with your 15mm spanner and be able to ride the bike home (if you've ridden the bike to the shop) and then use your 15mm spanner to remove the pedals again for servicing.

I've known people who have tried to use a normal 15mm spanner plus a long steel tube over it to remove the pedal and ended up breaking tthe spanner jaw that was on tthe pedal flat.

Cheers

[Joe Riel]

Alas, occasionally the flats on the pedal are oriented such that the
wrench/crank angle is larger than I'd like. Is there a clever method to
deal with that?

--
Joe Riel

[Lou Holtman]

Sir Ridesalot schreef op 13-5-2015 om 3:23:

There is no other way and they are 8 mm BTW. Always grease the threads
and don't overdo it when tightening. 30 Nm is enough. Never had problems
that way. When you got a new bike first remove the pedals and grease the
threads. Most of the time they 'forgot'to grease the threads..

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

Ah! I forgot they'd change many spindle hex receses to 8mm from the old 6mm.

Considering the low cost of bulk grease i find it amazing tthat so little of it is used on so many bicycles assembled at the factory. Many wheel bearings have just the thinnest veneer of grease in them = just enough to keep tthe bearings in place during assembly.

Cheers

[Tosspot]

On 12/05/15 19:28, David Scheidt wrote:

<snip>

> WD-40 is basically light oil in kerosene. So, yes, it will wash the
> grease out of the bearings.
>

> (English nit: fat is the fat you eat. Grease is what you put on
> bearings. It can also mean the kind you eat, usually the undesirable
> sort.)

It's quite interesting to leave 10cc of WD-40 in an egg cup and let it
dry out. What is left doesn't seem to be a lubricant, more a tacky,
sticky melted plastic feel. However, I'm a fan of it for nipples when
wheel building. Whenever I've come back, even years later, the
nipples/threads are not corroded and undo easily.

[Tosspot]

On 12/05/15 23:41, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Loctite prevents precession, decession, absession, and indysession

Lol!

[Tosspot]

On 13/05/15 06:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

<snip>

> I've known people who have tried to use a normal 15mm spanner plus a
> long steel tube over it to remove the pedal and ended up breaking
> tthe spanner jaw that was on tthe pedal flat.

Been there, done that, then I spunked the spondulacs for a Park pedal
wrench. Now, when I open the tool box and reach for the wrench and the
pedals undo themselves and fall to the floor before I can get anywhere
near them :-)

http://www.parktool.com/product/professional-pedal-wrench-pw-4

It's also useful for dissuading would be intruders.

[Tosspot]

These days they often have a hex insert at the back, but give me a pedal
wrench any day.

[David Scheidt]

Tosspot <frank...@gmail.com> wrote:

:On 13/05/15 06:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:<snip>

:> I've known people who have tried to use a normal 15mm spanner plus a
:> long steel tube over it to remove the pedal and ended up breaking
:> tthe spanner jaw that was on tthe pedal flat.

:Been there, done that, then I spunked the spondulacs for a Park pedal
:wrench. Now, when I open the tool box and reach for the wrench and the
:pedals undo themselves and fall to the floor before I can get anywhere
:near them :-)

The shop I went to when I was a kid had (probably still do....) a shop
made pedal wrench, made out of a steel bar about 5 feet long. I can't
imagine the pedals that required its creation...

--
sig 43

[John B.]

What is this "proper tool" that the bike shops have? Park tools lists
a PW-4, Professional Pedal wrench, and a PW-5, Home Mechanic Pedal
wrench, which appears almost the same although the professional
version has a longer handle :-)

But probably the real secret is to use a heavy grease or anti-seize
when you install the pedals :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Put a box under the pedal arm to support it at a height that will give
you the best angle.

I made up a pedal wrench that is about 12 inches long and I put
pressure on the wrench handle and give the wrench a smart rap with a 1
lb. ballpeen hammer say 3 or 4 inches from the head and the pedal
usually screws right off.

(usually best to be sure of the direction you are trying to screw the
pedal BEFORE you hit it :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 May 2015 08:38:37 +0100, Tosspot <frank...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Read the MSDS for WD-40. It is primarily "mineral spirits"often called
"Neutral Spirits" or even "Paint Thinner", a sort of purified
kerosene.

It isn't a bad penetrating oil but it isn't any sort of lubricant.

There is a recipe for probably the best penetrating oil I've seen
somewhere on the web that contains acetone and ATF oil and will eat
some plastics but it does penetrate and leaves an oil deposit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 1:20:00 PM UTC+1, David Scheidt wrote:

> The shop I went to when I was a kid had (probably still do....) a shop
> made pedal wrench, made out of a steel bar about 5 feet long. I can't
> imagine the pedals that required its creation...

There were men in those days, strong of wind and brawny of thigh.

Andre Jute

[AMuzi]

There are several nice designs:
http://www.hozan.co.jp/cycle_e/catalog/C200.html

http://velobase.com/VeloImages/Tools/08E20F78-3E7B-4A7D-897D-92453BC37099.jpeg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tosspot]

On 13/05/15 14:06, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> What is this "proper tool" that the bike shops have? Park tools lists
> a PW-4, Professional Pedal wrench, and a PW-5, Home Mechanic Pedal
> wrench, which appears almost the same although the professional
> version has a longer handle :-)

I have the PW-4

> But probably the real secret is to use a heavy grease or anti-seize
> when you install the pedals :-)

And this, imho, is the correct answer. Even on shop builds I will take
the pedals off and grease them. They don't need a lot of torque to stay
done up.

[Tosspot]

On 13/05/15 14:06, John B. wrote:

Does acetone and oil mix?

https://www.engineeringforchange.org/news/files/ENGR103-WD40Alternative-FinReport.pdf

[David Scheidt]

Tosspot <frank...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not well. It's also not a really good penetrating oil, in the real
world. ATF by itself is an okay penetetrant, but purpose built oils
work better. (WD-40 isn't a penentranting oil.)


--
sig 97

[avag...@gmail.com]

In this posting, misinformation, outdated shop tech, ignorance and retardation on removing pedals is overwhelming.

[Andre Jute]

Send me some of whatever you're smoking, Ridealot. I routinely torque pedals to spec with the hex socket on the VP191 and a shortarm torque wrench, and equally routinely undo properly installed pedals with a T-handle hex wrench.

Sure, I have a proper "professional pedal wrench" that says Park Tool on it, and occasionally I fondle it just to make it feel wanted, but if I ever have a really stuck pedal I'll fit a long steel pipe over a cheap unpadded but thick metal pedal wrench I got at a garage sale in a one-euro tray I bought to get a set of the good vintage Knipex cutters and about three thousand bucks' worth of other quality tools, all in this one-euro tray.

Andre Jute
Let's see if the resident dumpster divers congratulate me on my percipience

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/13/2015 1:36 AM, Joe Riel wrote:
>ger of knuckle damage, and no
>> need to try to immobilize the crank.
>
> Alas, occasionally the flats on the pedal are oriented such that the
> wrench/crank angle is larger than I'd like. Is there a clever method to
> deal with that?

I suppose a crow's foot wrench on a ratchet handle would give you any
angle you preferred.

http://www.diseno-art.com/images_3/crowfoot_wrench.jpg


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

The proper tool is a pedal wrench.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

I see that you need to learn that there's a big difference between an Allen Key and a hex bit in a torque wrench.

We're also discussing someone's seized pedals that don't have multiple flats nor a hex socket and which pedals are SEIZED to the crankarms. Thus they need to be REMOVED BEFORE THEY CAN BE GREASED.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

If the pedals are seized as badly as some that I"ve remove, that wrench would probable break before tthe pedal came loose. There's a very good reason that pedal wrenches are so beefy.

It's usually quite easy to remove a pedal that has the threads greases before being attached to the crankarm. It's often extremely difficult to remove a pedal that wasn't greased on the threads prior to attaching it to the pedal arm. It seems tthat's the case for the OP which is why I recommended he take it to a shop where the proper tool, a pedal wrench, should make the job go very quickly.

Cheers

[Tosspot]

I was quite taken by someones idea --^ to hit the pedal wrench with a
hammer, imparting a *lot* of torque, albeit for a brief time. I must
remember that trick next time the frame looks like it'll give way first.

[Andre Jute]

Allen is just a brand own owned by Apex. There is zero difference between Allen and hex keys. The "difference" is just another roadie street corner myth.

> We're also discussing someone's seized pedals that don't have multiple flats nor a hex socket and which pedals are SEIZED to the crankarms. Thus they need to be REMOVED BEFORE THEY CAN BE GREASED.

But, Ridealot, you're the one who introduced doing up and undoing the pedal, just a couple of posts up, before your memory went. Check it out. You said:

Sir Ridesalot schreef op 13-5-2015 om 3:23:

> A 6mm allen wrench is NOT recommended for the final tightening of a pedal to the crank arm as you can't get sufficient force to really tighten up the pedal. ... A 6mm allen wrench is good for spinning on the pedal during installation but a pedal wrench should be used for the final tightening.

Really? A pedal wrench for the 12Nm or so modern pedals require?

You should stop smoking that stuff, Rideablot, and move into the twentieth century.

Andre Jute

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> writes:

> What is this "proper tool" that the bike shops have?

Indeed.

> Park tools lists a PW-4, Professional Pedal wrench,
> and a PW-5, Home Mechanic Pedal wrench

Yeah, I think it boils down to getting one of those
one way or another before trying again.

[avag...@gmail.com]

....no one greases threads. greasing threads stopped with Loctite or before with ?

lawnmower people grease threads.

the state of this tech group is below redemption

[Sir Ridesalot]

Try rerading tthe post before jumping to conclusions. Many pedals used to and still do come with a 6mm hex shaped recess. A 6mm Allen key (not bit in a torque wrench) is not sufficiently long to tighten a pedal adequately. Maybe the newer 8mm hex recess a re okay because the 8mm Allen key is both thicker and longer than the 6mm ones and thus can impart much greater force.

All of which is not pertinebt to the OP who has SEIZED pedals that no hex KEY is going to remove.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Only those who have no knowledge of or who are silly will assemble a steel pedal spindle to an alloy crankarm without greasing the threads first. Unless of course they don't care if they end up with the exact problem the OP has. When steel corrodes it expands. That plus the corrosion caused by dissimilar meyals can 'weld' steel to alloy. This is the same thing tthat often happens to ally stems inside a steel fork or an alloy seat post inside a steel frame.

To tell people to further increase the problem of dissimilar metals by adding locktite is simply irresponsible advice.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

locktite does not alloy ionic transfer

grease alloys ionic transfer

grease comes with water

I will see you next year

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 13 May 2015 15:13:06 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>Only those who have no knowledge of or who are silly will assemble
>a steel pedal spindle to an alloy crankarm without greasing
>the threads first. Unless of course they don't care if they end
>up with the exact problem the OP has. When steel corrodes it expands.

>That plus the corrosion caused by dissimilar metals can 'weld' steel

>to alloy. This is the same thing tthat often happens to ally
>stems inside a steel fork or an alloy seat post inside a steel frame.
>
>To tell people to further increase the problem of dissimilar metals
>by adding locktite is simply irresponsible advice.
>
>Cheers

My apologies if this is a bit deranged, but I'm recovering from an
afternoon at of drill and fill at the dentist and feel lousy.

Long ago, when I was designing marine radios, the issue of galvanic
corrosion arrived on my desk. We were using Anodyne plated aluminum
PEM nuts on an aluminum chassis to hold in PCB (printed circuit
boards) with stainless steel 4-40 screws. The dissimilar metals and
galvanic compatibility problem is somewhat similar to the steel pedal
and aluminum crank arm problem, with the added bonus of a tin/copper
PCB.

Everyone had an opinion on the matter. The issue was mostly over how
much money would be spent to prevent corrosion. 100% stainless would
be nice, but also expensive.

I had my own opinion, but didn't want to risk being wrong. So, I
built a test fixture out of roughly 1ft x 1ft square of 0.062 6061-T6
sheet metal, swaged in a variety of aluminum and stainless standoffs,
attached a copper plated PCB, and inserted a mix of aluminum and
stainless fasteners. Protective coatings were also suggested, so I
applied an assortment, which include grease, Loctite red, zinc
(galvanizing) flash plating, Anti-Seize, etc. I recall about 120
different combinations with some duplications. I also punched some
big holes in both the aluminum sheet and the PCB between the PEM nuts
to equalize the exposure.

I dragged the whole mess down to Viking Labs and had them run a
MIL-STD-810 salt fog test.
<http://www.element.com/services-index/saltfogsaltspraytesting>
24 hrs is the equivalent of 10-15 years exposure, so I ran it for only
10 hrs (mostly because longer would have required paying the lab for
overtime).

The results were mixed. What survived best was aluminum PEM nuts and
flash galvanized (zinc) plated stainless screws.
<http://www.finishing.com/160/63.shtml>
Without the plating, the aluminum PEM nut and stainless screws fell to
the bottom of the list. If the bicycle pedal manufacturers would
plate their steel threads with zinc, there would be less of a galvanic
corrosion problem.

I don't recall the exact order of the various potions I test. Teflon
paste and anti-seize (Never-Seize??) both worked very well, but were
impossibly messy to handle and apply. Grease was somewhat better than
no grease, but still managed to produce stuck fasteners. I tried
different greases and oils, varying from vegetable oil to axle grease.
The best was the then new calcium sulfonate based marine greases.
<http://www.royalmfg.com/calciumsulfonate/>
The low viscosity oils barely worked but were easier to un-freeze than
those with no oil.

The problem with all this is that the manufacturers of pedals want the
pedal to lock to the crank arm. If it freezes in place, all the
better. If it gets loose, the danger is not that it falls off, but
rather that the motion of the steel threaded part will mechanically
wear down or deform the aluminum threads. Adding grease to the pedal
threads will cause it to slip. If you over-tighten the greased
threads in order to help keep it in place, the grease will allow you
to apply more torque, eventually peeling the threads out of the
aluminum crank arm. I have a bicycle that I bought used with exactly
that problem. It's much the same reason you don't want to use grease
on the crank arm to bottom bracket square axle taper.

Ever notice the finish on the pedal threads? Most are slightly rough,
although there are some that are polished. The rough surface is
intentional as it provides the friction necessary to keep the pedal
attached to the crank arm. Grease the threads, and the friction is
gone. However, the lack of a filler leaves gaps for electrolytes to
creep in and promote corrosion. Moral: You can win.

Well, actually you can win, but it costs money and adds a little
weight. Enlarge the hole and permanently insert a steel threaded
insert into the aluminum pedal:
<http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/pedal-bushing-kit>
However, I would like to see a more substantial insert, possibly with
set screw locks, or a lock nut. The set screw holes can also be used
to inject penetrating oil under pressure just in case it does get
stuck. The insert then becomes a permanent part of the crank arm. The
stock pedal just screws into the insert normally. Since there are no
dissimilar metals, there's no galvanic corrosion. There may still be
some surface corrosion, but that can be handled with some flash zinc
galvanizing.

Yawn, enough for tonite. I can barely focus on the screen and my
spelling errors have deteriorated to where the spelling chequer is
having problems. Sleep beckons...

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Andre Jute]

You mean I should read your post twice? Gee, I know quite a few exquisitely vain professional writers, and none of them, including those who write beautifully enough to bring tears to your eyes, demand that you read them twice. (Mind you, among the wannabes I did meet a bimbo who assured me solemnly that her "literary fiction" would necessitate "multiple reads ... to absorb all of the meaning". Her stuff is dully pretentious dreck, of course. See http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/1488 for a sample of the full horror.)

>Many pedals used to and still do come with a 6mm hex shaped recess. A 6mm Allen key (not bit in a torque wrench) is not sufficiently long to tighten a pedal adequately.

Really? I know many roadies are morphologically a bit weedy, but a cyclist who cannot pull 12Nm with a 6mm hex key of the correctly scaled arm length must be especially limp. I just tried it on a spare crank and easily turned the pedal bolt past 12Nm.

>Maybe the newer 8mm hex recess a re okay because the 8mm Allen key is both thicker and longer than the 6mm ones and thus can impart much greater force.

Of course, that's how it's designed. But 8mm is just more convenient to work with (and to stand on, for undoing pedal less resolutely stuck than the OP's), it isn't truly necessary. 8mm brings with it substantial danger in the hands of the inexperienced, or even those who practice the art little (I've recently removed and fitted cranks and pedals about ten times in a week in rebuilding and finetuning my bike, but before that not since probably 2011), of going too far and ripping aluminium thread and ruining components. For instance, my crank bolts, turned by hand with a correctly scaled 8mm Allen wrench, are at 40Nm, the upper permissible limit, whereas with the appropriate torque wrench in hand I would normally put it spot on the *lower* limit of 30Nm or, in the current case of the Bafang BBS-01, 35Nm.

> All of which is not pertinebt to the OP who has SEIZED pedals that no hex KEY is going to remove.

So you keep repeating, But, Ridealot, you're the one who introduced doing up and undoing the pedal with hexes and curses, a few posts up, before your memory went. Check it out. You said:

Sir Ridesalot schreef op 13-5-2015 om 3:23:
> A 6mm allen wrench is NOT recommended for the final tightening of a pedal to the crank arm as you can't get sufficient force to really tighten up the pedal. ... A 6mm allen wrench is good for spinning on the pedal during installation but a pedal wrench should be used for the final tightening.

And didn't we recently hear from the usual self-appointed authorities that "internet threads drift"?

Andre Jute
Horny-handed

[Andre Jute]

There's a lesson in human behaviour here. Jobst is hardly in his grave when the dissenters crawl into the daylight and start reversing his dicta.

Something you overlooked in that overview, Jeff. Creaking. I just had an example where on a single bicycle both newly installed cranks creaked, and the pedals too. I had deliberately overlooked the grease in my first test installation until I could discover how many spacer rings I would need for a precise 54mm chainlink. The creaking was so maddening that even my very polite pedal pals commented on it. I wiped off the factory Loctite, added grease (White Teflon by Finish Line; I have Park copper grease too but that stuff is real messy) to the tapers and all the threads, torqued up to the minimum spec, and Bob's your silent uncle, no creaks.

I don't care that manufacturers want the pedal thread to unite inseparably with the crank; screw them; I pay them to offer their advice and let me choose what to do. There are only three things I invariably take from bike to bike with me: my VP-191 pedals, my Brooks B73 saddle, and my Brooks edge-on leather ring handlebar grips, the places where I actually touch the bicycle, and where a millimetre of upset causes a disturbance. I don't want any of the permanently grown onto a bike by catalytic reaction.

Andre Jute
Never lost a pedal or a crank yet

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 May 2015 22:52:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I think that you may be wrong here.

Not that some pedal threads may not be as smooth and polished as
others but that the maker intended rough threads as some sort of
"thread-lock". At least I've never seen or heard of a reliable method
of cutting threads that would produce threads deliberately roughened,
and certainly not as a standard and controllable method of threading a
large number of items. Additionally, all of the various Shimano pedals
I have seen had very nice, smooth, threads, and a couple of the
"Italian Company" pedals I've seen also had very nice threads. I would
also add that I recently replaced the "WalMart" quality pedals on some
work bikes that a friend uses for his people to get around from job to
job in the Marina and they had smooth threads too :-)

>Well, actually you can win, but it costs money and adds a little
>weight. Enlarge the hole and permanently insert a steel threaded
>insert into the aluminum pedal:
><http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/pedal-bushing-kit>
>However, I would like to see a more substantial insert, possibly with
>set screw locks, or a lock nut. The set screw holes can also be used
>to inject penetrating oil under pressure just in case it does get
>stuck. The insert then becomes a permanent part of the crank arm. The
>stock pedal just screws into the insert normally. Since there are no
>dissimilar metals, there's no galvanic corrosion. There may still be
>some surface corrosion, but that can be handled with some flash zinc
>galvanizing.
>

I would think that a simpler method would be to just heat the aluminum
pedal arm end which will expand it. Torque the pedal in place while
the arm is hot. Once the pedal cools it will be a semi permanent
attachment. To loosen just heat and remove - aluminum expands several
times more then steel for any given temperature.

One "gotcha" is that depending on the aluminum alloy and treatment
there might be a critical temperature but even an industrial heat gun
won't get a pedal arm hot enough to weaken it. If I were to do it I'd
aim for about 100 degrees C (or 212 F) for the aluminum pedal arm.

>Yawn, enough for tonite. I can barely focus on the screen and my
>spelling errors have deteriorated to where the spelling chequer is
>having problems. Sleep beckons...
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

no search time maybe later.....

when JB was rehashing the precession machining, I went after that with 'why not red locktite. ?

no answer. JB ignored the suggestion.

which is the usual from that grease crew 'like' grease is a religion ?

primitive Baptists are lithium greasers.

excellent review Lieb but no breakdown on locktite...is L a closet greaser ?

my deal was road salt. I lived on top of an extinct volcano in the snowbelt. so much salt the trout were restocked after the creek flushed. trout no like salt.

either locktite or linseed solved the threading problem with some underneath Volvo shielding with scrap aluminum sheet/steel not too much zinc fastners reg hardware.

that was 30 years ago. locktite went up one since then. Lock has a pdf.

for those not here during, words flew on grease in tapirs.

I had retrieved a garage full of 10 speeds from the dumpster...all greased....all gauled into one part not 3.

answer was anti seize with linseed or.....red Loctite as a surface for new assemblies.



aiaisjsksdddddddddddddddddddddddddss;a;;a;a;''A''!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 2:24:02 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
<snip>

> > > Really? A pedal wrench for the 12Nm or so modern pedals require?
> > >
> > > You should stop smoking that stuff, Rideablot, and move into the twentieth century.
> > >
> > > Andre Jute
> >
> > Try rerading tthe post before jumping to conclusions.
>
> You mean I should read your post twice? Gee, I know quite a few exquisitely vain professional writers, and none of them, including those who write beautifully enough to bring tears to your eyes, demand that you read them twice. (Mind you, among the wannabes I did meet a bimbo who assured me solemnly that her "literary fiction" would necessitate "multiple reads ... to absorb all of the meaning". Her stuff is dully pretentious dreck, of course. See http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/1488 for a sample of the full horror.)
>
> >Many pedals used to and still do come with a 6mm hex shaped recess. A 6mm Allen key (not bit in a torque wrench) is not sufficiently long to tighten a pedal adequately.
>
> Really? I know many roadies are morphologically a bit weedy, but a cyclist who cannot pull 12Nm with a 6mm hex key of the correctly scaled arm length must be especially limp. I just tried it on a spare crank and easily turned the pedal bolt past 12Nm.
>

It's 30-40Nm for a pedal, depending on the crank. Sure, you can do it all with a standard hex key, but it is really inconvenient and sometimes impossible without an extension of some sort. I think the 6mm pedals also had flats, and the hex fitting was just for preliminary assembly.

I miss standard pedal flats. Working from the front of the crank is much easier.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 3:32:56 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 2:24:02 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > > > Really? A pedal wrench for the 12Nm or so modern pedals require?
> > > >
> > > > You should stop smoking that stuff, Rideablot, and move into the twentieth century.
> > > >
> > > > Andre Jute
> > >
> > > Try rerading tthe post before jumping to conclusions.
> >
> > You mean I should read your post twice? Gee, I know quite a few exquisitely vain professional writers, and none of them, including those who write beautifully enough to bring tears to your eyes, demand that you read them twice. (Mind you, among the wannabes I did meet a bimbo who assured me solemnly that her "literary fiction" would necessitate "multiple reads ... to absorb all of the meaning". Her stuff is dully pretentious dreck, of course. See http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/1488 for a sample of the full horror.)
> >
> > >Many pedals used to and still do come with a 6mm hex shaped recess. A 6mm Allen key (not bit in a torque wrench) is not sufficiently long to tighten a pedal adequately.
> >
> > Really? I know many roadies are morphologically a bit weedy, but a cyclist who cannot pull 12Nm with a 6mm hex key of the correctly scaled arm length must be especially limp. I just tried it on a spare crank and easily turned the pedal bolt past 12Nm.
> >
> It's 30-40Nm for a pedal, depending on the crank.

12Nm suggested by Utopia, the makers of my fave Kranich. Sheldon, on the other hand, said something along the lines of, "Worry about getting your pedals too loose rather than too tight."

>Sure, you can do it all with a standard hex key, but it is really inconvenient and sometimes impossible without an extension of some sort. I think the 6mm pedals also had flats, and the hex fitting was just for preliminary assembly.

My pedals have both the flats and the socket in the back. I always thought the socket was for a temporary emergency tightening on the road. (It would have to be temporary, considering the tools normally available.)

>
> I miss standard pedal flats. Working from the front of the crank is much easier.

Definitely. The rails on my cross frame have a talent for getting in the way of my knuckles.

Andre Jute

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 02:46:05 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>There's a lesson in human behaviour here. Jobst is hardly in his grave
>when the dissenters crawl into the daylight and start reversing his dicta.

Hardly. I locked horns with Jobst on the proper procedure for
patching tires. He claimed that one should remove the cover from the
patch and immediately apply the patch. I claimed that this would trap
the solvent under the patch. He then claimed that the solvent somehow
diffused through the rubber patch, which I countered with a few simple
experiments. There was no winner or concessions from either side.
While debating with the dead does offer some advantages to my point of
view, I'm sure there will be proxy Jobst's available to carry his
cause forward.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=yarchive+jobst>

>Something you overlooked in that overview, Jeff. Creaking. I just
>had an example where on a single bicycle both newly installed cranks
>creaked, and the pedals too. I had deliberately overlooked the grease
>in my first test installation until I could discover how many spacer
>rings I would need for a precise 54mm chainlink. The creaking was
>so maddening that even my very polite pedal pals commented on it.
>I wiped off the factory Loctite, added grease (White Teflon by
>Finish Line; I have Park copper grease too but that stuff is real
>messy) to the tapers and all the threads, torqued up to the minimum
>spec, and Bob's your silent uncle, no creaks.

I'm still feeling lousy this morning, so I'll skip the requisite
opening insult.

Squeaks, creaks, groans, and other noises are caused by metal to metal
surface movements, most commonly by mismatched parts. When you grease
these parts, you eliminated the friction that causes the noises, but
not the movement. Your mismatched crank arm to axle and pedal thread
to crank arm parts are still moving, deforming, shaving, grinding, or
otherwise mutilating each other. You might want to pull the crank and
look for damage.

>I don't care that manufacturers want the pedal thread to unite
>inseparably with the crank;

Heresy is perfectly acceptable as long as you understand the rational
and logic behind the manufacturers advice and instructions. As I
noted in my story about the satellite dish assembly instructions, some
manufacturers have agendas other than optimum function and maximum
product life. If the application of a greasy band-aid to compensate
for a component mismatch is deemed desirable, I see no problem.

>screw them;

That also works, as long as you remember to screw them in the manner
of left handed hardware on their port side.

>I don't want any of the permanently grown onto a bike by catalytic reaction.

Well, that is better than a cataclysmic reaction.

The basic problem is that the surface rust from the steel pedal
spindle expands as it rusts. The rust becomes imbedded into the
aluminum, causing everything to jam tight. Polished threads are not
going to help because the surface will soon be pitted by rust. Cadmium
or zinc plating might help prevent the rust buildup. Using a steel
insert will move the dissimilar metal junction to a location where it
can safely weld itself together. All that grease does is hide or
delay the problem.

>Never lost a pedal or a crank yet

Resin pedal lost when I side swiped a wall:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/Resin-Pedal.html>
I guess that doesn't count.

Over the years, I've had a few old crank arms that I managed to
"bend". The arm didn't really bend, but the square taper and threads
were mangled. Since I favor used parts, some of this may have been
inherited from a previous bicycle abuser. I can tell that I have a
problem if my foot tries to slip sideways off the pedals. To check, I
have a pair of pedal spindles that I screw into the cranks. If
they're not perpendicular to the frame, I have a problem. Hmmm... I
could probably thread a bubble level into the 9/16" spindle thread and
check if both sides are equally level. (Yet another product/project).

[Clive George]

On 14/05/2015 16:11, Andre Jute wrote:

>> It's 30-40Nm for a pedal, depending on the crank.
>
> 12Nm suggested by Utopia, the makers of my fave Kranich. Sheldon, on the other hand, said something along the lines of, "Worry about getting your pedals too loose rather than too tight."

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/torque-specifications-and-concepts

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/pedal-installation-and-removal-pw-3-pw-4-pw-5-hcw-16

12 is rather low.

[Mark J.]

On 5/12/2015 6:23 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> A 6mm allen wrench is NOT recommended for the final tightening of a pedal to the crank arm as you can't get sufficient force to really tighten up the pedal. There's no way a 6mm allen wrench will break loose a really stuck pedal spindle either. A 6mm allen wrench is good for spinning on the pedal during installation but a pedal wrench should be used for the final tightening.

Sometimes you don't get to choose. Some older Time ATACs have no wrench
flats on the spindle, only a 6mm allen "hole" on the spindle end.

I put the 6mm bit on my torque wrench and can break the ATACs free, but
I am amazed that the allen-part of the bit doesn't permanently
distort/twist under the torque I have to use.

Newer ATACs have 8mm allen sockets (but still no wrench flats). I find
these work much better.

Mark J.

[avag...@gmail.com]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNXXXXX-0=<)

THE WHITE MATERIAL on an ionic bond area....aluminum and ferrous plus ? ....
isnot REPEAT isnot soluble in hydrocarbons or terps NOT NOT NOT

.............

that said...I wuz over at HD looking for a drill shaft extension. All hex shapes...the old round with allen stubs for implanting bits is MO

all electric tools are clutched for the trades....hex plus clutch = T$D

there are fittings for such...a wall full here including that most disirabble of gubbins...a variable head 1/2" socket adapter for the cordless hole hawg

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

> My pedals have both the flats and the socket in the back. I always thought the socket was for a temporary emergency tightening on the road. (It would have to be temporary, considering the tools normally available.)

.
>
> Andre Jute

Now you got it! EMERGENCY or TEMPORARY not permanent!

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Note that Park says to grease the pedal threds before installing onto crankarm?

"a. Heavily grease threads of both pedals."

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

Park is:

1) from the Midwest

2) does not force Park's clientele into positions of thought or intellect less they bolt to Home Depot


........


really be serious...its warming now....can you hear Park Tool recommend Loctite ?

on whose bill ?

[Jeff Liebermann]

These also recommendd greasing the pedals:
<http://blog.nashbar.com/bike-nashbar/fast-fixes-pedal-installation-made-easy>
<http://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-tuesday-pedal-removal-install-2010.html>
<http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/workshop-mechanics-tips-18204/>
<http://www.bikehacks.com/bikehacks/2012/10/bike-customization-2-pedal-propulsion.html>
Those are all that I could find with Google image search:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=grease+pedal+threads>

So Sheldon has written, so it must be:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/pedals.html>
"The precession effect doesn't substitute for screwing your
pedals in good and tight. It is very important to do so. The
threads (like almost all threads on a bicycle) should be
lubricated with grease, or at least with oil."

Could it be that I'm wrong and that pedal thread grease has become
fashionable when I wasn't looking? What a horrible thought.

[Radey Shouman]

Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> writes:

> Radey Shouman <sho...@comcast.net> writes:

> Alas, occasionally the flats on the pedal are oriented such that the
> wrench/crank angle is larger than I'd like. Is there a clever method to
> deal with that?

I don't know of any such magic, other than collecting pedal wrenches
with a variety of angles (some are 90 degrees, for example).

--

[Joe Riel]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

> On Thu, 14 May 2015 02:46:05 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>There's a lesson in human behaviour here. Jobst is hardly in his grave
>>when the dissenters crawl into the daylight and start reversing his dicta.
>
> Hardly. I locked horns with Jobst on the proper procedure for
> patching tires. He claimed that one should remove the cover from the
> patch and immediately apply the patch. I claimed that this would trap
> the solvent under the patch. He then claimed that the solvent somehow
> diffused through the rubber patch, which I countered with a few simple
> experiments. There was no winner or concessions from either side.
> While debating with the dead does offer some advantages to my point of
> view, I'm sure there will be proxy Jobst's available to carry his
> cause forward.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=yarchive+jobst>

I think you missed something in the summary. Of course you want
to apply the patch immediately after removing its cover, otherwise
it will just collect dust. The issue is when to remove the cover
(before or after the solvent dries). I always let the solvent
mostly dry.

--
Joe Riel

[sms]

On 5/14/2015 12:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2015 11:46:21 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:33:04 PM UTC-4, Clive George wrote:
>>> http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/pedal-installation-and-removal-pw-3-pw-4-pw-5-hcw-16
>>> 12 is rather low.
>
>> Note that Park says to grease the pedal threds before installing onto crankarm?
>> "a. Heavily grease threads of both pedals."
>
> These also recommendd greasing the pedals:
> <http://blog.nashbar.com/bike-nashbar/fast-fixes-pedal-installation-made-easy>
> <http://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-tuesday-pedal-removal-install-2010.html>
> <http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/workshop-mechanics-tips-18204/>
> <http://www.bikehacks.com/bikehacks/2012/10/bike-customization-2-pedal-propulsion.html>
> Those are all that I could find with Google image search:
> <https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=grease+pedal+threads>
>
> So Sheldon has written, so it must be:
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/pedals.html>
> "The precession effect doesn't substitute for screwing your
> pedals in good and tight. It is very important to do so. The
> threads (like almost all threads on a bicycle) should be
> lubricated with grease, or at least with oil."
>
> Could it be that I'm wrong and that pedal thread grease has become
> fashionable when I wasn't looking? What a horrible thought.

Mix the grease with Loctite.

[Frank Krygowski]

It sounds to me like John and Jeff are trying to solve different and
essentially opposite problems. Jeff is addressing the overly strong
attachment of the pedal to the crank arm caused by corrosion. John is
proposing a new method of getting the attachment strong enough.

IME, "not tight enough" isn't much of a problem. I recall one pedal
coming a bit loose while on a bike tour in Scotland in 1976, but not
since then. It was a steel cottered crank. The pedals had been removed
for the airline, and installed probably using just a 6" flat steel
multi-tool. I assume I hadn't tightened it nearly enough, but I'm
surprised it took over 100 miles to be detected.

Based on that experience, I've been careful to grease and tighten
pedals, and I rarely remove pedals. But our Bikes Friday require that
the pedals be removed to fit in their suitcases for airline flights, and
Friday supplies only a 6" pedal wrench. We've put many hundreds of
miles on those, with no problems. Are other people really having
problems with pedals coming loose?

As most people here know, there's a precession action that tends to
tighten the pedal spindle into the crank arm, which is why the left
pedal is left hand thread. It's also why tandem front cranks (with
synchronizing chain on the left) are more unusual than they look.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[David Scheidt]

Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> wrote:

On Rema patches, and clones thereof, there are two covers. One is the
foil cover that protects the unvulcanized working surface. That comes
off before you put the patch on (duh). The other is a celophane or
polyethlene cover on the top. It serves a few purposes. One is it
protects the patch when it's in storage, keeps the working surface
from being attacked through the vulcanized body, and provides a handy
way to hold the patch when you're applying it. Jobst said to take
that off; Rema says leave it on (it comes off in use). I only remove
it when I have to put a patch on top of the patch I just put down.


--
sig 65

[avag...@gmail.com]

THERE IS NO LOGIC HERE

grease is inferior to Loctite

grease carries water, adsolves, encourages oxidation, does not hold torque.

Loctite does not carry water, does not float on water, is longer lived than the machine if waterproofed with a seam of linseed, holds torque precisely without stressing the components, and when asked, crumbles into a release lubricant already in place.

where grease has evaped and oxidized the surfaces.

how could we argue these facts ?

We can't.

Locktite wins

so to support these outdated greasers we would need to examine arguments outside engineering chemistry and design.

first: recommending grease is convenient and painless. the opinionator need not, as I wrote abt Park Tool, force the buyer of other stuff in the opinionates store to think abt more expensive stuff maybe not in his store but over at Walmart

No Lieb, I have no response to really backwards stuff like pouring penetrating oil on ionicly formed al-fe compounds.

Using grease is 'like' drinking tap water.

try that....pour a cool glass of Santa Cruss tap water and hydrate.

[Andre Jute]

You may be right, Clive; previously I too was of the "torque the pedals and cranks to hell and back" persuasion. But in seven years of torqueing the pedals 12Nm as per the Utopia handbook I haven't had a moment's trouble.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

I always got it, Ridealot. Read the thread. It was you who sent everyone off on a wild goose chase by suggesting that someone -- somewhere -- is tightening cranks and pedals with hex wrenches. I merely tested whether what you claim is possible, and reported my finding here. I have always done my pedals up with a pedal wrench, just testing them with a hex bit in a torque wrench.

By the way, to whoever wrote further down this thread about bits and sockets, I have quite a few socketed 1/4in drive hex bits that were broken off. They came from BBB with my smallest torque wrench, 2-15 pound, something like that anyway. Better make sure you have good sockets and bits if you're going to put 30 or 40Nm on the component.

Andre Jute
More sacntimoniously hypocritical than a whole peloton

[James]

On tubes that are for narrow tyres (18-23mm for example), I find that
leaving the celophane cover on sometimes makes it difficult to get the
patch to be compliant enough to not try to lift off the tube at the
edges before the glue has gone off. In other words the patch is too
stiff sometimes with the celophane left on.

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 13:32:17 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Ummm... bipolar disorder? Yin and Yang? Sweet and Sour? Fire and
Ice? Wi and Fi? Grease and Glue? Whatever the self-neutralizing
oxymoron, these don't do anything useful when mixed.

Gone to do some silent premeditation.

[avag...@gmail.com]

uh.....the evidence AES produced raises a serious question beyond the SPOKECALC's untruth where we called for a remedy finding no answer only a stonewall from SPOKECALCS

Integrity problem from the industry, direct and public in recommending a vastly inferior maintenance method.

Beyond peeing with footballs.

[David Scheidt]

James <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you mean "before the glue has gone off"? Patching procedure
is:
1) find hole
2) thoroughly roughen area around hole
3) apply thin layer of vulcanizing fluid
4) alow to dry
5) no, really, allow to dry
6) apply patch
7) stitch into place with the edge of something (or a stitcher, if
you're in a tire shop.)
8) profit

On tubes that small, you'd do well to track down the little patches
(about 15 mm in diameter, as opposed to the 25mm in the standard kit.)
much easier to put on.



--
sig 110

[David Scheidt]

David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

I meant to add here: You can wait as long as you'd like, assuming you
can keep the cement patch clean. I've waited a week with no problems,
and it's probably possibe to go lots longer.

:6) apply patch

:7) stitch into place with the edge of something (or a stitcher, if
:you're in a tire shop.)
:8) profit

:On tubes that small, you'd do well to track down the little patches
:(about 15 mm in diameter, as opposed to the 25mm in the standard kit.)
:much easier to put on.



:--
:sig 110

--
sig 32

[Jeff Liebermann]

Agreed on all counts. By cover, I meant the one covering the mating
surface of the patch, not the foil packaging. The instructions say to
let the solvent evaporate, while Jobst recommended applying the patch
immediately.

Much later, I noticed that Jobst had previously contradicted his
stated point of view:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html>
"Once mold release has been removed, rubber solution can be applied
with the finger by wiping a thin film over the entire area that the
patch is to cover. After the glue has dried, with no liquid or jelly
remaining, leaving a tacky sheen, the patch can be pressed into
place."

I'll see if I can find the original discussion with Google Groups
Search. I just tried and failed. My guess is 2010 or 2011.

Photo of the old Rema instructions:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/rema-old-instructions.jpg>

[Joe Riel]

I recall much of that exchange. I do remember that Jobst recommended
removing the cellophane cover after applying the patch, so the solvent
could evaporate through the patch. Not sure I ever bought that though
it is an interesting idea. I've always removed it because it looks kind
of stupid to leave it on. I also remove pretty much all the decals from
the bike, so it fits nicely with that. Removing the cellophane without
lifting an edge of the freshly applied patch can be a delicate operation
made easier with a sharp knife to slit the cellophane.

--
Joe Riel

[Sir Ridesalot]

Once again you err. It was you who first mentioned the hex recess on pedals. I replied that a 6mm Allen key is not sufficient to tighten a pedal. Later i mentioned that even if the OP's seized pedals had a hex recess there's now way a hex key, note I said key not bit in an impact hammer, would break the pedal loose.

Even later others have stated that the force you are using on your pedals is not the recommended force for most pedals.

Cheers

[Peter Howard]

FWIW, I gently bend the patch two ways before even removing the silver
foil so the cellophane cracks in an X shape across the patch. If doing
it at home a sharp craft knife encourages the cellophane to start
cracking. Once the patch is on, the four points where the four
cellophane wedges meet can be lifted with fingernail or a knife point so
the cellophane can be peeled from the middle to the edge of the patch.
Less chance of lifting the edge of the patch. But if the cellophane is
recalcitrant I'm not averse to just leaving bits of it on.
PH

[Tosspot]

On 15/05/15 10:02, Peter Howard wrote:

<snip>

> FWIW, I gently bend the patch two ways before even removing the silver
> foil so the cellophane cracks in an X shape across the patch. If doing
> it at home a sharp craft knife encourages the cellophane to start
> cracking. Once the patch is on, the four points where the four
> cellophane wedges meet can be lifted with fingernail or a knife point so
> the cellophane can be peeled from the middle to the edge of the patch.
> Less chance of lifting the edge of the patch. But if the cellophane is
> recalcitrant I'm not averse to just leaving bits of it on.
> PH

Is it me, or do istr the days when the cellophane was scored out of the
box. These days it definitely isn't and I use the above method as well.

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 3:40:12 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2015 13:32:17 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
> >Mix the grease with Loctite.
>
> Ummm... bipolar disorder? Yin and Yang? Sweet and Sour? Fire and
> Ice? Wi and Fi? Grease and Glue? Whatever the self-neutralizing
> oxymoron, these don't do anything useful when mixed.
>
> Gone to do some silent premeditation.

AKA beating your head against a brick wall...

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 6:05:09 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> Even later others have stated that the force you are using on your pedals is not the recommended force for most pedals.

Duh. It's a question of who it is recommended by, Ridealot, some incidental street corner loungers posing in lycra who have been caught out too often passing on as gospel gossip and myth of zero engineering value, or the manufacturers of my bike, which is known as the Rolls-Royce of bikes because the makers think very carefully about everything, and then hire someone independent and well overqualified to test it. The 12Nm is recommended by a manufacturer I trust. I'm of course perfectly happy to characterize the contrary advice to individuals and personalize my conclusion, but I'm certain you'll maturely decide that it is smart to leave it there.

Andre Jute

[avag...@gmail.com]

incidental street corner loungers posing in lycra

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 3:33:59 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
> On 15/05/15 06:53, David Scheidt wrote:

> > Joe Riel <> wrote:

> > :Jeff Liebermann <j> writes:
> >
> > :> On Thu, 14 May 2015 02:46:05 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute

This is truly esoteric knowledge, carried only by the priesthood. Wouldn't it be more convenient to:

1. Fit banded tyres, which just about stop flats, and
2. Carry a mobile phone to call a taxi to take you home in case of a flat

? Just asking. I haven't had a flat in a dozen years, since I got smart and fitted banded tyres. The stampsized packet of a Park Tool instant patch in my on-bike toolkit must be fifteen years old and is probably perished, but was never intended for my own bike, but for flats suffered by pedal pals, which hasn't happened since they all fitted banded tyres.

Andre Jute

[David Scheidt]

Tosspot <frank...@gmail.com> wrote:

:Is it me, or do istr the days when the cellophane was scored out of the

:box. These days it definitely isn't and I use the above method as well.

Yes, patches used to be like that. I don't know if rema were, or some
other brand.

--
sig 22