Cantilever Vs V-brakes.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

My main bike needs a fairly major overhaul, so I looked at the junk pile for
anything that could be rebuilt as a temp.

The best candidate has cantilever brakes and the cables need replacing, so I
wondered about converting to V-brakes while I was at it.

The Youtube clip I found makes it look *THAT* simple - there must be a
catch!!!

Thanks for any help.

[Frank Krygowski]

Why convert? Cantis work fine. V-brakes initial advantages were that
they would work with suspension forks, and they were easier to install.
Those don't concern you.

Once installed, they are a bit harder to precisely adjust; but you don't
have to do that more than once per year, if you're anything like
typical. And if you go to V-brakes, you'll likely need new brake levers
too.

I'd say replace the cables and see how the brakes work. Replace the
brake shoes if needed. If they squeal, adjust the toe-in. If they
stick, lubricate them.

Oh, and if you like, you can even adjust the mechanical advantage with
cantis.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ns454v$f5h$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 9/23/2016 4:34 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>> My main bike needs a fairly major overhaul, so I looked at the junk pile
>> for anything that could be rebuilt as a temp.
>>
>> The best candidate has cantilever brakes and the cables need replacing,
>> so I wondered about converting to V-brakes while I was at it.
>>
>> The Youtube clip I found makes it look *THAT* simple - there must be a
>> catch!!!
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>
> Why convert? Cantis work fine. V-brakes initial advantages were that
> they would work with suspension forks, and they were easier to install.

The potential temp bike with cantilever brakes has sprung front forks -
that's why its preferred over others on the pile.

Maybe its just me, but cantilevers just don't look right.

[AMuzi]

Frame & fork mounts are the same for both. Mechanical setup
is simple for either.

Linear & cantilever have different cable travel; each format
requires matching levers.

Fat tires with tight clearances are hell for wheel changes
with linear, more forgiving with cantilever.


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2016-09-23, Benderthe.evilrobot <Benderthe...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>> On 9/23/2016 4:34 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>>>
>>> The best candidate has cantilever brakes and the cables need replacing,
>>> so I wondered about converting to V-brakes while I was at it.
>

> Maybe its just me, but cantilevers just don't look right.

Cantis are very nice, if you know how to adjust them well, if you can
protect against the straddle-cable-falling-into-wheel situation, and
if you avoid the shitty fixed-length straddle cables.

But if you want to convert to V-Brakes without changing brake levers,
all you need is this.

Problem Solvers Travel Agent Adjustable
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6361

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/

[John B.]

My experience has been that, as far ads installation, they are
interchangeable however the Vee brakes require more "cable pull" than
Cantilevers. I have successfully used both with the same brake levers
by careful adjustment of the brake clearance and wheels with no
wobble.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message
news:slrnnubhfn....@zer0.org...

> On 2016-09-23, Benderthe.evilrobot <Benderthe...@virginmedia.com>
> wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2016 4:34 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The best candidate has cantilever brakes and the cables need replacing,
>>>> so I wondered about converting to V-brakes while I was at it.
>>
>> Maybe its just me, but cantilevers just don't look right.
>
> Cantis are very nice, if you know how to adjust them well, if you can
> protect against the straddle-cable-falling-into-wheel situation, and
> if you avoid the shitty fixed-length straddle cables.
>
> But if you want to convert to V-Brakes without changing brake levers,
> all you need is this.
>
> Problem Solvers Travel Agent Adjustable
> https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6361

Already watched a Youtube clip on how to do it - its so simple I wondered;
what's the catch.

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously quoted;
"if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers don't look
right.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:ns4753$lea$1...@dont-email.me...

Unless the tyre is completely flat - it won't clear the blocks without
unhooking the cable.

Usually the tyre isn't flat anymore when I put the wheel back - so the cable
has to be unhooked at some point either way.

Sometimes I find dumped bikes that aren't worth recovering, but the wheels
might be worth taking - V-brakes have always been easier to release than
cantilevers.

[Frank Krygowski]

On

>
> One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
> blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.
>
> R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
> quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
> don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >On
> >>
> >> One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
> >> blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.
> >>
> >> R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
> >> quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
> >> don't look right.
> >
> >Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
> >doing the looking.
>
> Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
> it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski

One can only speculate whether the fellow has actually used cantilever
brakes. I can only comment that the canti brakes I have used, while a
bit "fiddly" to adjust were certainly as powerful as any other brake
I've used.

As for looks, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

One exception. I saw in alibaba some vee brakes with extra long arms,
but at a price of US$71.00 and I'm not what the cable pill would be.
--
cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem. Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

I was unable to stop a touring bike and trail-along bike with my son on it using a set of cantis with STI levers in the rain -- which was probably a pad and brake related problem. I never got good stopping from STI levers and cantis, although some models worked better than others, and you could get O.K. stopping with careful set-up. I got rid of my last canti bike years ago. Now that the UCI has approved discs for CX bikes, cantis are fading into history -- at least among my cohort.

-- Jay Beattie.



--

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:ns6t12$9bd$1...@dont-email.me...

What part of "IMO:" did you not understand?

Its not just my opinion - the web seems to have more on converting from
cantilever to V than the other way round.

Some of the online descriptions suggest cantilever are good if you want the
blocks to last a long time - but not so much if you're bothered where you
stop.

You could say that not liking how they look is the cherry on the top.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"jbeattie" <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:63a16e0e-47c6-4f32...@googlegroups.com...

A disc has the least surface area to dissipate heat, but most of the
components can take it - unless the bonding between the pad and backplate
lets go.

Hydraulic discs add yet another risk factor - the seals on a few types won't
tolerate DOT4 fluid, and DOT5 doesn't handle high temperature quite so well.

Shouldn't be that much of a problem unless you're using a tandem as a HGV
though.

[jbeattie]

Santana uses a front v-brake and a rear disc with a giant rotor. I blew out a tire on a steep descent on my tandem using two cantilevers (Scott SE). I wanted to get a drum brake but never got around to it. I sold the tandem a few years ago.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

A LOT of people like V-brakes over cantilever brakes because they find the V-brake a lot easier to install and adjust and they find the V-brake gives better braking performance. Another plus for V-btake calipers for some people is that they don't stick out as much as the arms of most cantilevers do. Other's prefer the more finicky cantilever brakes because those people have the experience/kow how to setup and adjust cantilevers for best performance for those people.

If it were not for the expense of changing out my Campy Ergos on a couple of my bikes I'd forgo to cantis for V-brakes on them too.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/25/2016 10:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:30:12 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
>> exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
>> of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
>> any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
>> failed to stop about where I wanted to.
>>
>> But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
>> down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.
>
> I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem. Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

I agree, stopping a tandem or a trail-along combo on a long descent is a
different kettle of fish. Energy absorption and temperature rise is
very modest for most bike braking, but 300 pounds and hundreds of feet
of descent puts lots of energy into the brake surfaces.

OTOH, I once met a guy who toured the Alps by tandem with his wife, and
had only cantilever brakes. He was adamant that cantilevers were all
you needed. Personally, I still wouldn't try that.

> I was unable to stop a touring bike and trail-along bike with my son on it using a set of cantis with STI levers in the rain -- which was probably a pad and brake related problem.

Apparently some pads and rims are worse than others in the rain. You
(and most people in Portland) have far more rain experience than I ever
want to have.

The problem is that the coefficient of friction of the brake blocks
varies so much wet vs. dry. IIRC, David Gordon Wilson searched long and
hard for brake material with less wet-dry variation. The materials that
did best by that metric had much lower coefficients overall, and needed
very high mechanical advantages to work.

But I keep thinking that these are problems that only a small percentage
of bicyclists have. I've seen more people crash from too much braking
than from too little.

> I never got good stopping from STI levers and cantis, although some models worked better than others, and you could get O.K. stopping with careful set-up. I got rid of my last canti bike years ago. Now that the UCI has approved discs for CX bikes, cantis are fading into history -- at least among my cohort.

I don't use STI, so my cantis work very well.

But thinking about the "evolution" of bike fashions, I think the things
that are fading into history at any given time has as much to do with
fashion as with utility.

One friend of mine recently announced that she plans to get only one
more bike before she dies, a disc brake bike. Why? Because they stop
better in the rain. Now, she may ride in the rain sometimes, but it
must be rare. I don't remember ever seeing it or hearing about it.

Ah well, a person can buy whatever they like for whatever reason.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/25/2016 2:35 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>
> "Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:ns6t12$9bd$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On
>>>
>>> One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
>>> blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.
>>>
>>> R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
>>> quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
>>> don't look right.
>>
>> Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
>> doing the looking.
>
> What part of "IMO:" did you not understand?

Oh, I understand it. I'm just saying that "looking right" has its
limits. This bike
https://www.ridersmate.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/weird-bike-4.jpg
must look right to _somebody_.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

It is the rainy season here and even though I don't set out on a ride
with the rain pouring down I frequently do get caught in the rain or
encounter deep puddles so that the wheels get wet. I have been using a
set of Chinese made (I believe) brake pads that look much like
Cool-Stop pads, that are two colors, and while they don't brake quite
as well wet as they do dry they are certainly safe to use in traffic.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I get a 404 on that.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't know what your "main bike" is but I'll give you my latest experiences.

Built a CX bike with Cantilevers. These were Shimano which were cheap. The hand pressure required to use those off-road was far too high. You had to have the grip of a gorilla. On long steep downhills you simply couldn't have the endurance on your fingers.

I then went to hydraulic disks. This was spectacularly the other way around. The braking is so powerful that you can't ride with your hands on brake levers with more than one finger and even that can get you into trouble as you strike a rut and accidentally pull too hard on the brake. In my case I had two fingers on the front brake which locked up and the entire bike rotated all the way around the front wheel and dumped me in a mess on the side of the hill with the bike on top. Luckily the ground was reasonably soft and not too much damage was done to the body. But LOTS of bandages were used at $10 per small box.

Then I bought a set of TRP 9.0 V-brakes. Using Shimano 105 Brifters you have to take up virtually all of the slack in order to get sufficient motion on the brake cables to engage these brakes.

But WOW!!! These are almost as strong as disks but just enough to not be anywhere near as dangerous.

If you don't have any suspension and you want reliable V-brakes I have to recommend these.

[Frank Krygowski]

Hmm. It works for me. Let's try a TinyUrl version:
http://tinyurl.com/gktmb45

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I don't know what your "main bike" is but I'll give you my latest experiences.
>
> Built a CX bike with Cantilevers. These were Shimano which were cheap. The hand pressure required to use those off-road was far too high. You had to have the grip of a gorilla. On long steep downhills you simply couldn't have the endurance on your fingers.

Did you try using a shorter straddle cable, as explained by Sheldon in his
Cantilever Geometry article? That's how I've set up the cantis on our tandem,
and that bike stops very well, with nice low hand force.

The other detail is to be sure all cable runs are straight, including the
straddle cable where it spans from the center "saddle" to the brake arms.
Unless you form them properly around that saddle, the straddle cables retain
a curve and eat up some of your lever travel. Similarly, make sure the
anchor points for the cable housing are rigid. Some of the front cable hangers
of old are quite flexible, and they eat up lever travel.

- Frank Krygowski

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:nsa1bc$58l$1...@dont-email.me...

Yes - the bloke who's collecting wads of money from stupid people.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nsb5l4$cgp$1...@dont-email.me...

It loaded for me (eventually.............).

I put it down to the recent W10 update that took nearly 2h and several re
boots.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f328bb6-16f5-401f...@googlegroups.com...

> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know what your "main bike" is but I'll give you my latest
>> experiences.
>>
>> Built a CX bike with Cantilevers. These were Shimano which were cheap.
>> The hand pressure required to use those off-road was far too high. You
>> had to have the grip of a gorilla. On long steep downhills you simply
>> couldn't have the endurance on your fingers.
>
> Did you try using a shorter straddle cable, as explained by Sheldon in his
> Cantilever Geometry article? That's how I've set up the cantis on our
> tandem,
> and that bike stops very well, with nice low hand force.
>
> The other detail is to be sure all cable runs are straight, including the
> straddle cable where it spans from the center "saddle" to the brake arms.
> Unless you form them properly around that saddle, the straddle cables
> retain
> a curve and eat up some of your lever travel.

You've summed up a few of the things I don't like the look of.

I don't like the levers sticking out the side either.

One bike I stripped for salvage had a totally butchered back mudguard to
accommodate the straddle cable.

The bike I want to overhaul can't use a rear cantilever - I haven't looked
at whether I can fit to the front.

[AMuzi]

Still not. Odd.

But hey I think I've seen a weird bike or two; I get the
general idea:

https://images.devilfinder.com/go.php?q=weird+bike

[AMuzi]

We all have our various aesthetic standards:
http://www.perthvintagecycles.com/2012/05/rene-herse-vintage-bicycles.html

Mine don't include linear brakes but hey it's your bike.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nsc4sm$5no$1...@dont-email.me...

The seat post would get in the way of a centre mounted pull cable - it just
can't be done.

Maybe I could fit a cable mount to the front headset, but I don't see much
incentive to do so.

There's no guarantee I won't end up scrapping the bike I intended to
overhaul.

ATM: I'm finding more things wrong with the frame I picked to build up. The
front fork suspension was sloppy, so the last session was finding better
forks and greasing them ready to fit. All the cables might need to be
scrapped, but that can all come off when I do the headset which also has
play. The pedals need replacing - the BB bearing is probably the only good
one.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 4:04:32 PM UTC-4, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
Snipped

> The seat post would get in the way of a centre mounted pull cable - it just
> can't be done.
>
> Maybe I could fit a cable mount to the front headset, but I don't see much
> incentive to do so.

Thousands if not millions of bicycles have been sold with centre mounted pull cables on the rear cantilerver brake. You just have a hanger or a bridge that centers the cable above the crossover/straddle wire. Ditto for the front brake.

Cheers

[Gregory Sutter]

For example, Jan Heine just had a fancy rear one made:
https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/compass-rene-herse-rear-cable-hanger/

Also:
https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/funky-monkey-cable-hanger/
http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/cable_hanger
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_174820_-1___
...

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/

[AMuzi]

It was not a technical question. OP just doesn't think
cantilevers are aesthetically pleasing so no amount of
technical reference will help.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

never usedum but visually look like brush grabbers...

goo.gl/UeGP6N

bicycle design moves in the direction of the bicycle ....as the Spitfire designer said ....... there are only two colors to paint a boat, white or black. n only a fool would paint a boat black

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message
news:slrnnumbpc....@zer0.org...

> On 2016-09-27, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 4:04:32 PM UTC-4, Benderthe.evilrobot
>> wrote:
>> Snipped
>>> The seat post would get in the way of a centre mounted pull cable - it
>>> just
>>> can't be done.
>>>
>>> Maybe I could fit a cable mount to the front headset, but I don't see
>>> much
>>> incentive to do so.
>>
>> Thousands if not millions of bicycles have been sold with centre mounted
>> pull cables on the rear cantilerver brake. You just have a hanger or a
>> bridge that centers the cable above the crossover/straddle wire. Ditto
>> for the front brake.

I'm sure they have - but you'd have to drill a hole through the seat post to
accommodate the cable on mine.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nsge7v$n77$2...@dont-email.me...

Its mostly about the lever arms sticking out the sides just looking for
something to catch on.

They're also more PITA to unhook when you want to take the wheel out.

[Doug Landau]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:40:35 AM UTC-7, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
> "Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message

> news:slrnnubhfn....@zer0.org...
> > On 2016-09-23, Benderthe.evilrobot <Benderthe...@virginmedia.com>
> > wrote:

> >>> On 9/23/2016 4:34 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The best candidate has cantilever brakes and the cables need replacing,
> >>>> so I wondered about converting to V-brakes while I was at it.
> >>

> >> Maybe its just me, but cantilevers just don't look right.
> >
> > Cantis are very nice, if you know how to adjust them well, if you can
> > protect against the straddle-cable-falling-into-wheel situation, and
> > if you avoid the shitty fixed-length straddle cables.
> >
> > But if you want to convert to V-Brakes without changing brake levers,
> > all you need is this.
> >
> > Problem Solvers Travel Agent Adjustable
> > https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6361
>
> Already watched a Youtube clip on how to do it - its so simple I wondered;
> what's the catch.

>
> One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
> blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.
>
> R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously quoted;
> "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers don't look
> right.

Concorde looked good

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Doug Landau" <doug....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:91028bf0-2211-4ba9...@googlegroups.com...

It was half French....................................

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"jbeattie" <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:18a36121-babf-432c...@googlegroups.com...

I've seen conversions where people have put a moped front end on a bicycle,
but its not so easy to do the same at the back, so you end up with a skinny
driving wheel pushing too much load.

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2016-09-28, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 9/27/2016 9:47 PM, Gregory Sutter wrote:
>>
>> For example, Jan Heine just had a fancy rear one made:
>> https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/compass-rene-herse-rear-cable-hanger/
>

> It was not a technical question. OP just doesn't think
> cantilevers are aesthetically pleasing so no amount of
> technical reference will help.

I used the question as an excuse to post Jan's new part to see if
anyone had comments about it. It's pretty, but I'm a little dubious
that cutting back the brake cable housing would offer superior
function to a ferrule. I've become a JH believer in many ways,
though, so perhaps.

Also WTH, the newsfroup could use more tech content anyway. Whee.

[Tosspot]

That was why it worked a 35 hour week.

[Sir Ridesalot]

You don't have to drill a hole through a seat post in order to center a cantilever brake cable. the cable housing simply goes beside the seat post and thence to the cable hanger or cable bridge.

It's no harder to disconnect a cantilever straddle cable than it is to disconnect a V-brake cable.

One thing to remember if going from caliper brakes or cantilever brakes to V-brakes is that it's usually a very good idea to either buy a Problem Solvers adaptor or V-brake compatible V-brake levers. that's bedcaue the pull ratios are different and you can end up with extremely poor V-brake performance.

So in short, to switch to V-brakes requires both V-brake caipers and V-brake brake levers.

Cheers

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message
news:slrnnumbpc....@zer0.org...

> On 2016-09-27, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 4:04:32 PM UTC-4, Benderthe.evilrobot
>> wrote:
>> Snipped
>>> The seat post would get in the way of a centre mounted pull cable - it
>>> just
>>> can't be done.
>>>
>>> Maybe I could fit a cable mount to the front headset, but I don't see
>>> much
>>> incentive to do so.
>>
>> Thousands if not millions of bicycles have been sold with centre mounted
>> pull cables on the rear cantilerver brake. You just have a hanger or a
>> bridge that centers the cable above the crossover/straddle wire.

Would have to drill a hole through the seat post to accommodate the cable.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Again, you don't have to drill a hole through the seatpost in order to route a cantilever brake cable. The cable housing goes to one side of the seatpost and ends at the cable bridge/stop and the inner cable continues from that to the straddle cable yoke or to the transverse cable mount bolt.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

No one's saying you can't use linear brakes. In fact, go
right ahead if you prefer them.

But cantilevers do not _require_ a hole in the seat post:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hanger.html

Some riders do find that aesthetically pleasing:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/am19g.jpg

although many do not. Meh.

[John B.]

Sort of like you knees there just ahead of the rear canti levers?
Strange I can't remember anyone worrying about their knees catching on
something.

Of course when one just doesn't like something one can find all sorts
of ways to rationalize their irrational suppositions.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2016 3:52 PM, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> On 2016-09-28, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 9/27/2016 9:47 PM, Gregory Sutter wrote:
>>>
>>> For example, Jan Heine just had a fancy rear one made:
>>> https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/compass-rene-herse-rear-cable-hanger/
>>
>> It was not a technical question. OP just doesn't think
>> cantilevers are aesthetically pleasing so no amount of
>> technical reference will help.
>
> I used the question as an excuse to post Jan's new part to see if
> anyone had comments about it. It's pretty, but I'm a little dubious
> that cutting back the brake cable housing would offer superior
> function to a ferrule. I've become a JH believer in many ways,
> though, so perhaps.
>
> Also WTH, the newsfroup could use more tech content anyway. Whee.

Hmm. I suspect the free play or motion with a ferrule or (as with this
part) without a ferrule might differ by about 0.002" - an amount too
small to detect from the brake lever.

On one bike with centerpull brakes, I've got a cable hanger that works
similarly in that it hangs from the binder bolt; but mine includes a
quick release. I find that to be handy. Looking at Andrew's site, you
can buy one for less than the Compass part.

I guess it doesn't have the cachet of the Compass part. But you can
probably buy spray-on cachet somewhere.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2016-09-28, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>

> But cantilevers do not _require_ a hole in the seat post:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/hanger.html
>
> Some riders do find that aesthetically pleasing:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/am19g.jpg
>
> although many do not. Meh.

Andy, that's a very attractive bike! I like the nice touches on
seatstays and cable routing as well as the lovely not-Celeste hue.
Did you build the frame? Is there a mechanism for installing or
keeping the seatpost at the correct height for cable transit?

[John B.]

I make them up from a length of stainless welding rod and a commercial
cable stop. I've also used flat stainless stock in place of the rod.
Say 4 inches of welding rod or a piece of scrap of stainless sheet and
a cable stop ($0.27 at Nova), and perhaps 1/4" of silver soldering
wire. Cost? Maybe couple of dollars. Makes that Compass part look sort
of high priced :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 9/29/2016 12:45 AM, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> On 2016-09-28, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> But cantilevers do not _require_ a hole in the seat post:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/hanger.html
>>
>> Some riders do find that aesthetically pleasing:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/am19g.jpg
>>
>> although many do not. Meh.
>
> Andy, that's a very attractive bike! I like the nice touches on
> seatstays and cable routing as well as the lovely not-Celeste hue.
> Did you build the frame? Is there a mechanism for installing or
> keeping the seatpost at the correct height for cable transit?
>

Yes I built it to customer's spec.

A change of seat post height did indeed require a brake
adjustment but the pierced post & stem thing had a following
back in that era.

Like hula hoops, fashion changes.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Sand

[Duane]

I'm liking the current dual pivot fashion in brakes. Having had both
cantilever and V-Brakes, if prefer:

https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/sram-force-mechanical-brakeset

Looks cool, works well, has a lever to open if you need it to get a
wheel off. Almost never needs adjustment from my experience.

Not to disparage the other choices. The Dia Compes on my Volpe seemed
to stop me when necessary.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Were there many seatpost failures caused by drilling a hole through the seatpost?

Cheers

[Doug Landau]

When it gets stuck, you can pour coca-cola in the hole, and then stick a screwdriver in there and turn it to break it loose!

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nshco4$c8m$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 9/28/2016 4:10 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>>
>> "Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message
>> news:slrnnumbpc....@zer0.org...
>>> On 2016-09-27, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 4:04:32 PM UTC-4,
>>>> Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
>>>> Snipped
>>>>> The seat post would get in the way of a centre mounted
>>>>> pull cable - it just
>>>>> can't be done.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I could fit a cable mount to the front headset,
>>>>> but I don't see much
>>>>> incentive to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Thousands if not millions of bicycles have been sold with
>>>> centre mounted pull cables on the rear cantilerver brake.
>>>> You just have a hanger or a bridge that centers the cable
>>>> above the crossover/straddle wire.
>>
>> Would have to drill a hole through the seat post to
>> accommodate the cable.
>
> No one's saying you can't use linear brakes. In fact, go right ahead if
> you prefer them.
>
> But cantilevers do not _require_ a hole in the seat post:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/hanger.html

The seat post is *IN THE WAY*. Its too close to interpose any kind of cable
hanger - the cable would foul on the seat post.

The brand is CBR Slalom - years ago I tracked down a picture for the benefit
of someone who got very annoyed that I'd called a CBR motorcycle a bicycle.
Last time searched for the picture I couldn't find it.

[AMuzi]

Probably but I never saw one.
Stems yes.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/am19f.jpg
Don't do that.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nsjr6o$jfi$1...@dont-email.me...

They use seriously low grade steel - once I tried welding a front fork lamp
bracket because the clamp kept coming loose.

The tube wall isn't that thin, but the welding rod kept blowing holes. The
only way to complete the job was feed in a 4mm rod as additional filler.

[John B.]

Poor technique. Trying to weld with too much amperage will almost
always result in "blowing holes" in the parent material.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

Even before that you get a lot of splatter

[John B.]

Well true to an extent, but I've found that spatter also depends on
what type of rod one is using, i.e., the flux coating on the rod. Many
of the Lo-Hi rods run pretty cleanly while something like 6010 or 11
seem to spatter more.

But probably an arc welder is not the best selection in welding thin
wall tubing :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

OK,
what is the right amps for arc welding 1/8" to 3/32 or 1/16th? I am using 3/16 6013
Same question for 1/8 to 5/32 or 3/16, this time using 1/4 6013

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't believe I'd try welding anything to a fork tube. I'd prefer
brazing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:37:41 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau

The rule of thumb is 1 amp per 0.001 inch of thickness, which I assume
relates to single pass 100% penetration as I've found that was usually
higher than necessary. So for 1/16" amperage would be 62 amps.

As I say, it is usually too high a current or at least I would use
considerably less then 250 amps for 1/4" stuff, but it does depend
also on the rod size, with larger rods requiring higher current.

It also depends on the material. Aluminum, for instance, usually
requires a bit higher amperage as it transfers heat very rapidly.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Even better, silver solder :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2016-09-29, Benderthe.evilrobot <Benderthe...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>
> The brand is CBR Slalom - years ago I tracked down a picture for the benefit
> of someone who got very annoyed that I'd called a CBR motorcycle a bicycle.
> Last time searched for the picture I couldn't find it.

Your image:
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/P8QAAOSwWfFXj4TJ/$_86.JPG

(http://static.gamesurf.it/cover/news/2014/674x226/60269.jpg)

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Gregory Sutter" <gsu...@zer0.org> wrote in message

news:slrnnus77d....@zer0.org...

> On 2016-09-29, Benderthe.evilrobot <Benderthe...@virginmedia.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> The brand is CBR Slalom - years ago I tracked down a picture for the
>> benefit
>> of someone who got very annoyed that I'd called a CBR motorcycle a
>> bicycle.
>> Last time searched for the picture I couldn't find it.
>
> Your image:
> https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/P8QAAOSwWfFXj4TJ/$_86.JPG

Thanks - mine had black fork sliders with gaiters, which were falling off in
strips.
Found a pair the right diameter for the stanchions, but they didn't fit over
the top of the sliders. At least they keep SOME of the crap off the moving
parts.

It had the original saddle with "CBR" screen printed on the sides, but that
got changed for more comfort.

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2016-09-29, John B <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>
> I make them up from a length of stainless welding rod and a commercial
> cable stop. I've also used flat stainless stock in place of the rod.
> Say 4 inches of welding rod or a piece of scrap of stainless sheet and
> a cable stop ($0.27 at Nova), and perhaps 1/4" of silver soldering
> wire. Cost? Maybe couple of dollars. Makes that Compass part look sort
> of high priced :-)

See, metalworking skills are very valuable! :)

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 14:25:39 -0500, Gregory Sutter <gsu...@zer0.org>
wrote:

>On 2016-09-29, John B <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>>
>> I make them up from a length of stainless welding rod and a commercial
>> cable stop. I've also used flat stainless stock in place of the rod.
>> Say 4 inches of welding rod or a piece of scrap of stainless sheet and
>> a cable stop ($0.27 at Nova), and perhaps 1/4" of silver soldering
>> wire. Cost? Maybe couple of dollars. Makes that Compass part look sort
>> of high priced :-)
>
>See, metalworking skills are very valuable! :)

It takes minimal metalworking skills to bend a piece of wire into a
"U" shape :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2016 3:25 PM, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> On 2016-09-29, John B <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>>
>> I make them up from a length of stainless welding rod and a commercial
>> cable stop. I've also used flat stainless stock in place of the rod.
>> Say 4 inches of welding rod or a piece of scrap of stainless sheet and
>> a cable stop ($0.27 at Nova), and perhaps 1/4" of silver soldering
>> wire. Cost? Maybe couple of dollars. Makes that Compass part look sort
>> of high priced :-)
>
> See, metalworking skills are very valuable! :)

I certainly agree with that!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 1:10:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I don't know what your "main bike" is but I'll give you my latest experiences.
> >
> > Built a CX bike with Cantilevers. These were Shimano which were cheap. The hand pressure required to use those off-road was far too high. You had to have the grip of a gorilla. On long steep downhills you simply couldn't have the endurance on your fingers.
>
> Did you try using a shorter straddle cable, as explained by Sheldon in his
> Cantilever Geometry article? That's how I've set up the cantis on our tandem,
> and that bike stops very well, with nice low hand force.
>
> The other detail is to be sure all cable runs are straight, including the
> straddle cable where it spans from the center "saddle" to the brake arms.
> Unless you form them properly around that saddle, the straddle cables retain
> a curve and eat up some of your lever travel. Similarly, make sure the
> anchor points for the cable housing are rigid. Some of the front cable hangers
> of old are quite flexible, and they eat up lever travel.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

I was using the shortest straddle cable possible. But believe me when I say that those TRP 9.0 V-brakes are almost like disks.