material to do clamps

[Emanuel Berg]

I found a good starting point to do clamps.
I don't know what it is called but it works
great. It is cuttable with pair of nippers if
you cut first and then ruck back and forth
a few times until it lets go. The holes makes
it very easy to fold and the big holes are good
for M5 bolts. Today a used it to fasten the
fender stays that are on the outside of the
fender with a special bolt that often breaks,
and with this, it took only a couple of minutes
to do two such clamps to hold the back and
front stays!

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 57 Blogomatic articles -

[David Scheidt]

Emanuel Berg <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
:I found a good starting point to do clamps.

:I don't know what it is called but it works

: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg

It appears to be pipe hanging strap. Used by plumbers to hang pipes
and the like.

--
sig 64

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 04:21:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>I found a good starting point to do clamps.
>I don't know what it is called but it works
>great. It is cuttable with pair of nippers if
>you cut first and then ruck back and forth
>a few times until it lets go. The holes makes
>it very easy to fold and the big holes are good
>for M5 bolts. Today a used it to fasten the
>fender stays that are on the outside of the
>fender with a special bolt that often breaks,
>and with this, it took only a couple of minutes
>to do two such clamps to hold the back and
>front stays!
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg

I can't tell from your photo but is it some sort of black finish on
the metal itself or paint?

But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder, with some 1mm cut-off
wheels and some sanding disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much nicer than them old
scraggly broken off ends :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I can't tell from your photo but is it some
> sort of black finish on the metal itself
> or paint?

No, it is just metal on a white piece of paper,
if it looks like some black finish it is some
photovisual side effect.

It is indeed a piece of pipe hanging strap as
suggested!

> But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder,
> with some 1mm cut-off wheels and some sanding
> disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
> with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much
> nicer than them old scraggly broken off ends
> :-)

OK, perhaps this month even if they aren't too
expensive. How much are they in Thailand?
I suppose not that different from in the west
tho relatively speaking they are still cheaper
because everything else is much cheaper (e.g.,
food) so you have more money to put
on hardware, right?

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-12 19:21, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> I found a good starting point to do clamps.
> I don't know what it is called but it works
> great. It is cuttable with pair of nippers if
> you cut first and then ruck back and forth
> a few times until it lets go. The holes makes
> it very easy to fold and the big holes are good
> for M5 bolts. Today a used it to fasten the
> fender stays that are on the outside of the
> fender with a special bolt that often breaks,
> and with this, it took only a couple of minutes
> to do two such clamps to hold the back and
> front stays!
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg
>

As David said that is a pipe hanging strap. Two caveats: Unless they are
always under tension they will eventually break. The other is that the
cut ends and sometimes also the sides will rust.

I would not fasten a luggage rack with that. If you really have to use
this material make sure to file down and sand any sharp corners. Else
your next crash or even just picking up the bike could result in a nasty
gash.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[sms]

Not sure what he's doing to the fenders with that. I have several bikes
with fenders and have never had any bolts for the fender clamps break.

I used to fabricate quite a few handlebar clamps, frame clamps, and rack
stays, but nowadays it's much easier to buy these sorts of products,
pre-made, online, though generally not from any bicycle shops.
Considering the time and materials, it's generally a bargain to not make
this stuff yourself anymore.

<http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>: 4, 7, 13, 16, 21, 37

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2016 10:08 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-07-12 19:21, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> I found a good starting point to do clamps.
>>
>>

>> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg

>
> I would not fasten a luggage rack with that. If you really have to use
> this material make sure to file down and sand any sharp corners. Else
> your next crash or even just picking up the bike could result in a nasty
> gash.

On the other hand, leaving the sharp corners allows use of your bike as
a weapon, swinging and slashing. Take that, mountain lion!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I'm still struggling to find a cage that will perfectly fit a jumbo can of Planter's peanuts. http://restockit.com/images/Product/medium/MFE072108.jpg
My LBS also has no squirrel extractors or tire lug facing tools. Other useful items I can't buy at my LBS include a micro-pump that will fit into a seat pack that doesn't cost more than $12.37 and is Canadian. It' outrageous, eh?

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Your problem is those CF bikes Jay. Big Carbon is evil. Otherwise you
could just weld a can of planters nuts to the side of your frame,
preferably within easy reach of your hands. Once the can is empty, just
refill as needed. The nice thing here is that the can may be multi
purposed for jelly beans or pig skins at your preference.

[Joerg]

My last bike that had fenders was back as a young teenager. After I
turned the umpteenth fender into a pretzel I gave up on those and just
accepted that I'd get dirty on muddy rides.

> I used to fabricate quite a few handlebar clamps, frame clamps, and rack
> stays, but nowadays it's much easier to buy these sorts of products,
> pre-made, online, though generally not from any bicycle shops.
> Considering the time and materials, it's generally a bargain to not make
> this stuff yourself anymore.
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>: 4, 7, 13, 16, 21, 37
>

The link doesn't work here. Do you know a source for cheap sturdy clamps
that does not require me to hand my CC info to some guy in China?

I need to shore up my MTB seat post rack because I have a lot of load on
there at times and worry about the weld breaking off and the frame
suffering too much on rough turf. It's a FS bike so the only option will
be to make a big old clamp for further down the seat tube just above the
shock connection and run struts to the rear of the luggage rack. I've
got a chunk of Delrin so I could make it. However, all I have is hand
tools. It'll be a chore and won't be very pretty.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder,
> with some 1mm cut-off wheels and some sanding
> disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
> with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much
> nicer than them old scraggly broken off ends
> :-)

OK, I have an "angle grinder"! I don't know if
it is 4 inch tho. I just didn't recognize the
English name. Which is interesting because it
is the same in Swedish, "vinkelslip".

Aaanyway, I don't think I'll ever use that for
cutting this miniature thing! It is only 1 inch
in height and the thickness is, I think,
1/32 inch.

The ends look good! They are sharper than the
original edges yes, but not that sharp.
For anyone to cut anything with it, the skill
of a samurai probably will be just enough.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-13 12:08, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder,
>> with some 1mm cut-off wheels and some sanding
>> disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
>> with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much
>> nicer than them old scraggly broken off ends
>> :-)
>
> OK, I have an "angle grinder"! I don't know if
> it is 4 inch tho. I just didn't recognize the
> English name. Which is interesting because it
> is the same in Swedish, "vinkelslip".
>
> Aaanyway, I don't think I'll ever use that for
> cutting this miniature thing! It is only 1 inch
> in height and the thickness is, I think,
> 1/32 inch.
>

Real Vikings only need one thwack with their battle ax to do that :-)

> The ends look good! They are sharper than the
> original edges yes, but not that sharp.
> For anyone to cut anything with it, the skill
> of a samurai probably will be just enough.
>

Until one fine day there is a surprise sheet of ice on the road and ...

[Frank Krygowski]

Danger!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

That is what a guy thought who made a MTB fender out of a chunk of ABS
he had laying around and didn't bother to invest the 10 minutes to round
the edges. When he crashed it slit deep into a calf muscle.

Didn't you claim to be a "cycling instructor" and then you are so
careless about risks that are very simple and easy to avoid?

[Emanuel Berg]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> writes:

> Until one fine day there is a surprise sheet
> of ice on the road and ...

Ha ha, OK, good point, I'll see if I can get
away the sharpness either by using another tool
- like this:

http://www.clasohlson.com/medias/sys_master/8873660973086.jpg

- *or* if I can do "postprocessing" and get it
away. If all fail yes, I will use the angle
grinder. Safety first...

(According to Wikipedia, the tool is "snips" or
"shears", but when I do Google Image search
I get many different tools for those!)

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-13 14:10, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> writes:
>
>> Until one fine day there is a surprise sheet
>> of ice on the road and ...
>
> Ha ha, OK, good point, I'll see if I can get
> away the sharpness either by using another tool
> - like this:
>
> http://www.clasohlson.com/medias/sys_master/8873660973086.jpg
>
> - *or* if I can do "postprocessing" and get it
> away. If all fail yes, I will use the angle
> grinder. Safety first...
>
> (According to Wikipedia, the tool is "snips" or
> "shears", but when I do Google Image search
> I get many different tools for those!)
>

I just use the old-fashioned file and sand paper. If I want to be extra
good also a spritz from the Rustoleum can.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2016 4:10 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> writes:
>
>> Until one fine day there is a surprise sheet
>> of ice on the road and ...
>
> Ha ha, OK, good point, I'll see if I can get
> away the sharpness either by using another tool
> - like this:
>
> http://www.clasohlson.com/medias/sys_master/8873660973086.jpg
>
> - *or* if I can do "postprocessing" and get it
> away. If all fail yes, I will use the angle
> grinder. Safety first...
>
> (According to Wikipedia, the tool is "snips" or
> "shears", but when I do Google Image search
> I get many different tools for those!)
>

These:

http://www.cadia.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/i/tinsnips.jpg

search 'tin snips' or 'sheet metal snips' or 'aircraft metal
snips'

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:45:33 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> I can't tell from your photo but is it some
>> sort of black finish on the metal itself
>> or paint?
>
>No, it is just metal on a white piece of paper,
>if it looks like some black finish it is some
>photovisual side effect.
>
>It is indeed a piece of pipe hanging strap as
>suggested!
>
>> But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder,
>> with some 1mm cut-off wheels and some sanding
>> disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
>> with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much
>> nicer than them old scraggly broken off ends
>> :-)
>
>OK, perhaps this month even if they aren't too
>expensive. How much are they in Thailand?
>I suppose not that different from in the west
>tho relatively speaking they are still cheaper
>because everything else is much cheaper (e.g.,
>food) so you have more money to put
>on hardware, right?

You can buy Chinese made tools for very cheap prices here but quality
varies a great deal. I bought a "no name" 4" grinder from a sidewalk
vendor maybe 15 - 20 years ago and it still works perfectly. A friend
bought an "electric screwdriver" and it didn't work when he got it
home.

I'm off downtown this morning and will check current prices just as a
matter of interest.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Quite frequently "cheap", "made locally" are not synonyms :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 21:08:29 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> But do buy yourself a 4 inch angle grinder,
>> with some 1mm cut-off wheels and some sanding
>> disks for finishing. Nice cleanly cut ends
>> with maybe a bit of rounding looks so much
>> nicer than them old scraggly broken off ends
>> :-)
>
>OK, I have an "angle grinder"! I don't know if
>it is 4 inch tho. I just didn't recognize the
>English name. Which is interesting because it
>is the same in Swedish, "vinkelslip".

Well, generally speaking, angle grinders some in two sizes, big ones,
that are likely 8 inch diameter wheels, and small ones that are about
4 inch (technically 4.5"). Get some 1mm thick cut-off wheels and some
"flap sanding disks", say 100 grit to 40 grit. see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXXM6i3FJ5s
Note: the very thin cut-of wheels break fairly easily but the broken
pieces are so light that they usually do not anything.

>Aaanyway, I don't think I'll ever use that for
>cutting this miniature thing! It is only 1 inch
>in height and the thickness is, I think,
>1/32 inch.
>
>The ends look good! They are sharper than the
>original edges yes, but not that sharp.
>For anyone to cut anything with it, the skill
>of a samurai probably will be just enough.

It isn't a matter of sharp, It is a matter of the beauty of a
precisely machined part :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:08:30 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Yes. And there are examples of a piece of straw being driven into a
palm tree during a tornado too, but not very often :-)

>Didn't you claim to be a "cycling instructor" and then you are so
>careless about risks that are very simple and easy to avoid?
--

cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> Yes. And there are examples of a piece of
> straw being driven into a palm tree during
> a tornado too, but not very often :-)

For a fender I think you could make the case it
is a danger having somewhat sharp edges, not
only in accidents but also when you move the
bike around (e.g., putting it upside down on
a table), for this ~1 cm^2 piece it is more
like a principle doing the right thing when it
doesn't matter hopefully means you'll do the
right thing when it does matter, and you'll be
better at it because of the practise, and in
the meantime you don't have to think about
whether to do it or not, instead you just do it
- more relaxed. So the file and sand-paper
solution will work out fine I think :)

[Frank Krygowski]

Amazing! Razor sharp ABS! This sounds like bad news for airport
security. Sounds like anyone could carry on a homemade plastic fender,
then start decapitating passengers left and right. I had no idea
plastic was so dangerous!

> Didn't you claim to be a "cycling instructor" and then you are so
> careless about risks that are very simple and easy to avoid?

I admit, there are some dangers that I don't worry about. Fortunately,
there are enough people like you that enthusiastically worry about every
conceivable danger, plus many inconceivable ones.

Thank you for your service!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:

> Not sure what he's doing to the fenders with
> that. I have several bikes with fenders and
> have never had any bolts for the fender
> clamps break.

On standard bikes - e.g.,

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/26-damcykel.jpg
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/vit-damcykel.jpg

- the fender stays go on the inside of the
fender where they make an upward open loop.
There is a corresponding hole in the fender (or
one can drill one, stringing the fender to
a mallet which is put in a vise) - in that
hole and thru the loop there is most often an
M6 (or M5) on the outside with a lock nut on
the inside, sometimes with washers in different
arrangements in between.

This is very sturdy and straightening out the
fender stays with hand power is very easy.

However on other bikes - for example the Czech
Favorit:

http://oldtenspeedgallery.com/blog/wp-content/bikes/2010/01/jonathan-favorit-10-speed-05.jpg

(not my bike by the way)

- on these bikes the stays go on the outside of
the fenders, and there is a special bolt to
hold them. Sometimes it is in metal and
sometimes metal with a plastic detail on top.

Both are very fragile and if they ain't broke
when you get the bike, often it is enough for
you to straighten the stay for them to break!

Such bolts are nothing I have lying around
which is why a canonical way to fix it would be
good to have...

[Joerg]

Another free piece of advice since you are an ME: Do not design any
enclosures with that attitude, certainly not for consumer equipment.
Because that can put you one lawsuit away from financial ruin or a
serious charge for your employer.

[Joerg]

If ok with a Chinese angle grinder they are around $15 plus tax in the
US, shouldn't cost more in Thailand:

http://www.harborfreight.com/4-12-in-43-amp-angle-grinder-69645.html

[Joerg]

Like the beauty of my road bike head set fix :-)

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Hoseclamp.JPG

And it really works, better than ever ...

[Emanuel Berg]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> writes:

> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Hoseclamp.JPG

Indeed, hose clamps is another option for doing
lots of stuff...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm not sure about what makes the difference in strength between those
two arrangements. On all the bike fenders in our house (they're on
almost every bike) the fenders have sheet steel brackets riveted to the
fender itself. The outer sides of those brackets end in "ears" with
holes for (slightly special) fender eye bolts. The fender stays have
loops at the dropout, held in place with M5 screws. The stays are
straight at the end attaching to the fender, and pass through a hole in
the fender eye bolts.

Here are images:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/SKS_stay_endIMG_4322.JPG
and
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/fender2107drawbolt.jpg
Note that this means there is no continuous stay wrapping around the
fender from the left to the right side. But the metal bracket gives
adequate rigidity.

A few of our bikes have plastic fenders from Planet Bike, and those have
no metal connecting the left stay to the right stay. Each clamps
independently to the plastic. I find this gives too little lateral
stiffness. The fender tends to rattle more against the tire. I keep
intending to convert to one continuous left-to-right stay, as on the
bikes in your photos. But I wasn't aware of any strength problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Related: I'm on the board of commissioners for our little local nature
preserve.

Some woman's grandson was horsing around with friends, fell into the
creek and got a cut. His cut got infected. She attacked Village
Council, saying "That water's polluted! You must never let anyone in
the water!"

Council had the water tested. Final results are not in, but preliminary
results say the water is fine. But the village's liability-paranoid
lawyer said "We must put up warning signs!"

So the forest preserve now has several signs saying "DO NOT ENTER OR
DRINK THE WATER!"

On a recent hike, I said "Hey! Feel the edge of this sign! We need
another sign saying 'WARNING! SIGN EDGES ARE SHARP!!'"

... and where does it end?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/14/2016 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>
> Like the beauty of my road bike head set fix :-)
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Hoseclamp.JPG
>
> And it really works, better than ever ...

http://www.memecenter.com/search/there%20i%20fixed%20it


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

That's got nothing to do with it. If a danger is obvious and most of all
easy to fix we as engineers have a moral obligation to do so.

[Mike A Schwab]

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 9:42:44 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2016 5:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >
> > That is what a guy thought who made a MTB fender out of a chunk of ABS
> > he had laying around and didn't bother to invest the 10 minutes to round
> > the edges. When he crashed it slit deep into a calf muscle.
>
> Amazing! Razor sharp ABS! This sounds like bad news for airport
> security. Sounds like anyone could carry on a homemade plastic fender,
> then start decapitating passengers left and right. I had no idea
> plastic was so dangerous!
>

Shivs and shanks made by prisoners out of plastic silverware all the time.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shanks-lesser-known-prison-weapons-article-1.2508679

http://www.correctionsone.com/contraband/articles/1961780-15-deadly-improvised-prison-weapons-and-tools/

http://weburbanist.com/2009/09/10/insane-prisoner-inventions-24-diy-prison-tools-weapons/

http://specialized-weapons.wonderhowto.com/news/shanks-shotguns-and-stoves-ingeniously-crafted-prison-contraband-0128501/

[Frank Krygowski]

Do engineers have an obligation to put padding around the edges of all
metal signs? Certainly a bicyclist or pedestrian could bump into one of
those sign edges.

Again: Where does it end?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Too wimpy. This is what I found to be the minimum in terms of sturdiness:

https://www.gazelle-store-berlin.de/gazelle-schutzblech-strebe-hr-schwarz.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=GZ-3126200001&p=1670

Much better but, of course, the bike industry will never get there and
thus must be home-made:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Rack1.JPG

No flimsy stays, all big tubes, thick aluminum and hefty bolts. This has
withstood serious rock hits, wood chunks shredding through there,
copious amounts of gravel-laden mud and a violent rear tire blowout. To
the point where the rear light got smashed and had to be replaced. Some
day the new light will be equipped with a protection screen.

[Joerg]

No, but on bicycle parts they shall provide rounded edges. It is not
hard to do. See my other post for an example how it's done right.

> Again: Where does it end?
>

You will not understand it.

[jbeattie]

http://tinyurl.com/hnh7xa9 Some tracks are really dangerous: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3046/2495012212_223dd5bed8.jpg

I pitty the foo' who crashes on the streetcar tracks: http://tinyurl.com/ja7vng9

The engineers should fix the tracks. Joerg! How come you are not up here fixing the tracks? It is your civic and moral duty.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, I've heard of that. The item in question here, though, is a tiny
clamp down near the edge of a bike fender. Is it _really_ a slashing
hazard?

The version that I linked to, used on millions of bikes (and labeled
"too wimpy" by Joerg)
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/SKS_stay_endIMG_4322.JPG
measures about 0.040" thick on my bikes, so if rounded, its radius isn't
more than 0.020". It protrudes a maximum of about 0.1" and doesn't seem
dangerous to me at all. How common are slashing injuries from these things?

Joerg (as usual) supplies a horror story about a mountain biker with,
purportedly, a deep wound from a homemade fender as justification for...
what? He didn't actually say, but he was worried because Emanuel's
bracket would be "sharper than the original, but not that sharp." Do we
really need minimum radius standards on homemade bike hardware? Who
will pay for the study to determine what radius is safe enough?

Understand, it is pretty standard machine shop practice to "break" all
sharp edges and corners. But we don't need to descend into the usual
Joerg-style horror stories.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 02:42:13 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> Yes. And there are examples of a piece of
>> straw being driven into a palm tree during
>> a tornado too, but not very often :-)
>
>For a fender I think you could make the case it
>is a danger having somewhat sharp edges, not
>only in accidents but also when you move the
>bike around (e.g., putting it upside down on
>a table), for this ~1 cm^2 piece it is more
>like a principle doing the right thing when it
>doesn't matter hopefully means you'll do the
>right thing when it does matter, and you'll be
>better at it because of the practise, and in
>the meantime you don't have to think about
>whether to do it or not, instead you just do it
>- more relaxed. So the file and sand-paper
>solution will work out fine I think :)

I just can't get all excited about all these "dangers" that I see the
Internet advertising. Example: a large "chief's knife" would be about
the size of a "sax knife" (see Saxon) and you can easily kill someone
with one. On the other hand my wife uses one almost every day.

Sharp edges on fenders? Maybe, but when you hit the tree at 30 KPH and
break your hip any scratches from the fenders is going to seem rather
incidental.
--
cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 7/13/2016 9:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

> On 2016-07-13 08:16, sms wrote:
>> On 7/13/2016 7:08 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-07-12 19:21, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>>>> I found a good starting point to do clamps.
>>>> I don't know what it is called but it works
>>>> great. It is cuttable with pair of nippers if
>>>> you cut first and then ruck back and forth
>>>> a few times until it lets go. The holes makes
>>>> it very easy to fold and the big holes are good
>>>> for M5 bolts. Today a used it to fasten the
>>>> fender stays that are on the outside of the
>>>> fender with a special bolt that often breaks,
>>>> and with this, it took only a couple of minutes
>>>> to do two such clamps to hold the back and
>>>> front stays!
>>>>
>>>> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/clamp-material.jpg
>>>>
>>>
>>> As David said that is a pipe hanging strap. Two caveats: Unless they are
>>> always under tension they will eventually break. The other is that the
>>> cut ends and sometimes also the sides will rust.
>>>
>>> I would not fasten a luggage rack with that. If you really have to use
>>> this material make sure to file down and sand any sharp corners. Else
>>> your next crash or even just picking up the bike could result in a nasty
>>> gash.
>>>
>>

>> Not sure what he's doing to the fenders with that. I have several bikes
>> with fenders and have never had any bolts for the fender clamps break.
>>
>

> My last bike that had fenders was back as a young teenager. After I
> turned the umpteenth fender into a pretzel I gave up on those and just
> accepted that I'd get dirty on muddy rides.

>
>
>> I used to fabricate quite a few handlebar clamps, frame clamps, and rack
>> stays, but nowadays it's much easier to buy these sorts of products,
>> pre-made, online, though generally not from any bicycle shops.
>> Considering the time and materials, it's generally a bargain to not make
>> this stuff yourself anymore.
>>
>> <http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>: 4, 7, 13, 16, 21, 37
>>
>

> The link doesn't work here. Do you know a source for cheap sturdy clamps
> that does not require me to hand my CC info to some guy in China?

What you do is to use a credit card that allow the generation of virtual
credit card numbers. The Citibank Double Cash Mastercard has this
feature. The new Citibank Costco Card does not. It is extremely useful,
not just when doing business with Chinese companies. A lot of online
merchants have been hacked. I've replaced credit cards several times,
after Target, Home Depot, and Bike Nashbar have been hacked. With a
Virtual Credit Card, you just generate one for the amount of each purchase.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I just can't get all excited about all these
> "dangers" that I see the Internet
> advertising. Example: a large "chief's knife"
> would be about the size of a "sax knife" (see
> Saxon) and you can easily kill someone with
> one. On the other hand my wife uses one
> almost every day.

I agree, and I don't think my bracket is
dangerous, however I think the sharpness should
be removed nonetheless because it is easy, and
it is a healthy principle to be exercised and
carried over the entire work range, which will
include cases where it *does* matter - isn't
this analogous with soldiers being pedantic
with the sheets of their beds etc.? Also,
I always try to do things at the top of my
current ability - some people think this is to
worry too much but I think it is the other way
around, I think it is very relaxing not to do
bargaining what to do but just do it and be
happy about it. I didn't think of the edges but
now that I am aware of it it'll be no problems
applying a couple of file strokes to remedy it.

> Sharp edges on fenders? Maybe, but when you
> hit the tree at 30 KPH and break your hip any
> scratches from the fenders is going to seem
> rather incidental.

No, to have the hole fender sharp on both sides
is obviously dangerous, you can hit another
cyclist and cut him/her, the bike can rotate
down a slope, or you can crash bad and have the
bike deformed with them cutting into you!

Here, because of the size of the bracket being
so small, I can't visualize it ever doing any
harm, but the principle remains so I'll
take it.

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:18:34 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But Joerg, automobiles are dangerous. They kill as many, if not more,
than guns. Knives are sharp and can cut, and saws, there was even a
court case over a cyclist being attacked with a saw of some kind.
And think about Chain Saws? My God! Can you imagine a chain saw on a
crowded street?

I assume that the "Moral Engineer's Association" will shortly be
proposing new laws for the control of these murderous devices. Or
perhaps a design change is required? Stationary automobiles, dull
knives and chain saws with smooth chains.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:55:49 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But Joerg, bicycles are dangerous, they kill over 700 people every
year. Rather than some sort of regulation about sharp edges wouldn't
simply banning bicycles totally be a better solution.

After all, no bikes = no more cuts by bicycles and no more bicycle
deaths. Think of it. 700 innocent people, many of them women and
children, saved from an untimely death?

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 07:23:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Cheaper actually. I saw one being sold for 350 baht the other day -
about US$ 10.00.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Op 14-7-2016 om 22:46 schreef Frank Krygowski:

As a mechanical engineer I have to add 'injury protecte edges' on the
drawings of all sheet metal parts that I design that could hurt
customers or the service technician. Remove sharp edges is very costly...

Lou

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 03:04:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> I just can't get all excited about all these
>> "dangers" that I see the Internet
>> advertising. Example: a large "chief's knife"
>> would be about the size of a "sax knife" (see
>> Saxon) and you can easily kill someone with
>> one. On the other hand my wife uses one
>> almost every day.
>
>I agree, and I don't think my bracket is
>dangerous, however I think the sharpness should
>be removed nonetheless because it is easy, and
>it is a healthy principle to be exercised and
>carried over the entire work range, which will
>include cases where it *does* matter - isn't

No doubt, but to what extent? After all a certain number of people die
each year from falling out of bed. Should we do as the Japanese do,
and sleep on the floor? (think of the lives that would be saved :-)

>this analogous with soldiers being pedantic
>with the sheets of their beds etc.? Also,

That is a bit different, at least in root cause. The "tight bed"
originated in efforts to force the private soldier to be clean. And as
always happen's one step leads to another and you end up with tight
bed sheets.

>I always try to do things at the top of my
>current ability - some people think this is to
>worry too much but I think it is the other way
>around, I think it is very relaxing not to do
>bargaining what to do but just do it and be
>happy about it. I didn't think of the edges but
>now that I am aware of it it'll be no problems
>applying a couple of file strokes to remedy it.
>
>> Sharp edges on fenders? Maybe, but when you
>> hit the tree at 30 KPH and break your hip any
>> scratches from the fenders is going to seem
>> rather incidental.
>
>No, to have the hole fender sharp on both sides
>is obviously dangerous, you can hit another
>cyclist and cut him/her, the bike can rotate
>down a slope, or you can crash bad and have the
>bike deformed with them cutting into you!
>
>Here, because of the size of the bracket being
>so small, I can't visualize it ever doing any
>harm, but the principle remains so I'll
>take it.

--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Undoubtedly true, but when those sheets of metal were delivered to the
fabrication shop I don't believe that they had "injury protection
edges" :-)



--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> No doubt, but to what extent? After all
> a certain number of people die each year from
> falling out of bed. Should we do as the
> Japanese do, and sleep on the floor? (think
> of the lives that would be saved :-)

Actually, I already do that! It is easier to
keep clean as there is no space under the bed,
and the room gets "bigger", in and out of the
bed :)

>> this analogous with soldiers being pedantic
>> with the sheets of their beds etc.? Also,
>
> That is a bit different, at least in root
> cause. The "tight bed" originated in efforts
> to force the private soldier to be clean.
> And as always happen's one step leads to
> another and you end up with tight bed sheets.

OK, well, to me, both makes sense in the same
way and I don't mind doing either.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 07:57:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> No doubt, but to what extent? After all
>> a certain number of people die each year from
>> falling out of bed. Should we do as the
>> Japanese do, and sleep on the floor? (think
>> of the lives that would be saved :-)
>
>Actually, I already do that! It is easier to
>keep clean as there is no space under the bed,
>and the room gets "bigger", in and out of the
>bed :)

And, if you stopped wearing your shoes in the house the floor will
stay clean for an amazing length of time :-)

>>> this analogous with soldiers being pedantic
>>> with the sheets of their beds etc.? Also,
>>
>> That is a bit different, at least in root
>> cause. The "tight bed" originated in efforts
>> to force the private soldier to be clean.
>> And as always happen's one step leads to
>> another and you end up with tight bed sheets.
>
>OK, well, to me, both makes sense in the same
>way and I don't mind doing either.

--

cheers,

John B.

[Bertrand]

> On a recent hike, I said "Hey! Feel the edge of this sign! We need
> another sign saying 'WARNING! SIGN EDGES ARE SHARP!!'"
>
> ... and where does it end?

A very minor South Jersey attraction:

http://tinyurl.com/hjk9dkh

[AMuzi]

it ended:

http://omnifeed.com/article/www.wsj.com/articles/deconstructing-the-ikea-dresser-recall-1468449602

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/opposition-stalls-gmo-food-labeling-bill-us-senate

etc etc
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

I have no idea what sorts of things are just lying about in
your typical Thai household but here in Wisconsin, battle
axes are 'trending'

http://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/article_eee4e5c1-85dc-549d-a588-9ea4747a90c3.html

[AMuzi]

Yep, and there's precedent.

In 1905, one Mr Lanfray, a Swiss, massacred his wife, two
children and his father after a day of drinking Absinthe.
With worldwide telegraphy and newspapers with space to fill,
it was sensationalized. By 1908 Switzerland banned Absinthe,
followed by US, France, many others. And once one 'evil'
chemical was banned, the nattering classes advanced on other
substances, even banning alcohol in our dear US of A for
several years (I'm not making this up!).

So one stinking axe struck a deadly blow against personal
freedom from which we have not recovered. The point was
never put as eloquently as by Ludwig von Mises:

"once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of the
government to protect the individual against his own
foolishness, no serious objections can be advanced against
further encroachments.… And why limit the government's
benevolent providence to the protection of the individual's
body only? Is not the harm a man can inflict on his mind and
soul even more disastrous than any bodily evils? Why not
prevent him from reading bad books and seeing bad plays,
from looking at bad paintings and statues and from hearing
bad music?"

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

>>> No doubt, but to what extent? After all
>>> a certain number of people die each year
>>> from falling out of bed. Should we do as
>>> the Japanese do, and sleep on the floor?
>>> (think of the lives that would be saved :-)
>>
>> Actually, I already do that! It is easier to
>> keep clean as there is no space under the
>> bed, and the room gets "bigger", in and out
>> of the bed :)
>
> And, if you stopped wearing your shoes in the
> house the floor will stay clean for an
> amazing length of time :-)

... so you wear shoes indoors in Thailand?

I know you don't have winters with snow and
slush to bring in but isn't there like
a monsoon season?

Do the buddharupas appreciate the floors being
wet like the Kon-Tiki balsa logs?

[sms]

It's part of design and manufacturing to not leave sharp edges exposed.
Yes, it adds cost, but "very costly" no, not on automated production.
For small quantities, where you have to remove sharp edges by hand, it's
pretty labor intensive which is costly.

When I fabricate metal brackets for a bicycle they usually get enclosed
in heat shrink tubing, which eliminates the need for a lot of grinding
or sanding, but I do round the edges at the end.

The plastic store charge a hefty fee for rounded corners.

[Joerg]

:-)

Those sharp edges won't kill you but can hurt you badly and are
completely unnecessary. The injury of the guy whose leg sliced along the
edge of his homemade fender during an "involuntary dismount" looked
ghastly. Five more minutes invested using a file and some sandpaper
would have prevented that.

> After all, no bikes = no more cuts by bicycles and no more bicycle
> deaths. Think of it. 700 innocent people, many of them women and
> children, saved from an untimely death?
>

Those would be replaced by vastly more deaths due to COPD, diabetes and
so on.

[Joerg]

Same here. Always. I also point such stuff out to other "bike modders".
Like a dirt biker who made himself larger racks. One of the bottom frame
mounts could have sliced off or at least deeply into his right foot if
he'd be rear-ended so he modified that part.

> The plastic store charge a hefty fee for rounded corners.

Stores may but properly equipped machine shops usually don't.

Rounding the corners of the rear light plate and the aluminum pannier
clamp doubling as a fender took me only minutes in the garage using hand
tools:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Rack1.JPG

It is very unlikely that I ever get in touch with those in a crash but
another MTB rider rear-ending me could. Better safe than sorry,
especially when the effort is so little.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-14 17:43, sms wrote:
> On 7/13/2016 9:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-13 08:16, sms wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> I used to fabricate quite a few handlebar clamps, frame clamps, and rack
>>> stays, but nowadays it's much easier to buy these sorts of products,
>>> pre-made, online, though generally not from any bicycle shops.
>>> Considering the time and materials, it's generally a bargain to not make
>>> this stuff yourself anymore.
>>>
>>> <http://tinyurl.com/notatlbs>: 4, 7, 13, 16, 21, 37
>>>
>>
>> The link doesn't work here. Do you know a source for cheap sturdy clamps
>> that does not require me to hand my CC info to some guy in China?
>
> What you do is to use a credit card that allow the generation of virtual
> credit card numbers. The Citibank Double Cash Mastercard has this
> feature. The new Citibank Costco Card does not. It is extremely useful,
> not just when doing business with Chinese companies. A lot of online
> merchants have been hacked. I've replaced credit cards several times,
> after Target, Home Depot, and Bike Nashbar have been hacked. With a
> Virtual Credit Card, you just generate one for the amount of each purchase.
>

Nashbar was? Maybe that's why my bank sent me a new card. Unfortunately
no virtal numbers on that but this is a good idea. Though with myriad
little gift cards and all that I wonder when we'll run out of the 16
available digits with blocks being assigned to specific entities
worldwide. This ultimately became a squeeze with the 10-digit US phone
number system and with the 12-digit IP address system. Our area code had
to be changed in the 90's because Missy Bell ran out of phone numbers
for the Sacramento region.

AFAIR any given issuer has only 9 digits (6 others used for issuer and
one for check-sum) available which would be a billion numbers. For a
large institution those could vanish quickly if they have many customers
of the "serial shopper" kind with a virtual number feature on their cards.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-14 17:27, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 02:42:13 +0200, Emanuel Berg
> <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>>
>>> Yes. And there are examples of a piece of
>>> straw being driven into a palm tree during
>>> a tornado too, but not very often :-)
>>
>> For a fender I think you could make the case it
>> is a danger having somewhat sharp edges, not
>> only in accidents but also when you move the
>> bike around (e.g., putting it upside down on
>> a table), for this ~1 cm^2 piece it is more
>> like a principle doing the right thing when it
>> doesn't matter hopefully means you'll do the
>> right thing when it does matter, and you'll be
>> better at it because of the practise, and in
>> the meantime you don't have to think about
>> whether to do it or not, instead you just do it
>> - more relaxed. So the file and sand-paper
>> solution will work out fine I think :)
>
> I just can't get all excited about all these "dangers" that I see the
> Internet advertising. Example: a large "chief's knife" would be about
> the size of a "sax knife" (see Saxon) and you can easily kill someone
> with one. On the other hand my wife uses one almost every day.
>

That is a multi-purpose tool. Generally of peaceful use but if she were
assaulted by an intruder it can also be used for defense. Just like a
gun can be used for hunting or for defense.

> Sharp edges on fenders? Maybe, but when you hit the tree at 30 KPH and
> break your hip any scratches from the fenders is going to seem rather
> incidental.
>

An "involuntary dismount" on a MTB at high speed is often caused by the
bike abruptly stopping because of an obstacle while the rider you can
fly off clean and roll. People who have done parachuting or Judo know
how to roll properly to absorb energy in a non bone-crushing way. It
would be nice not to find blood gushing from a cut afterwards,
especially when this happens in the middle of nowhere. Smart bike
dealers are keenly aware of this. When I mentioned I wanted to play
around with stems and handlebar height my bike dealer (MTB competition
rider) told me never to let the top washer stack exceed 5mm.

I've had one high speed crash years ago where it went the other way. Was
late, had to get home, singletrack, 20mph, 21mph, 22mph ... woohoo ...
*THWOCK* ... a Manzanita branch grabbed my hydration pack and violently
yanked me out of the saddle. The rear of the MTB slid through my legs
(but no cuts because there is never anything sharp-edge on my bikes) and
the bike continued alone until flipping over when it hit something. I
rolled off to the side. Most amazing was that the hydration pack did not
tear. Hats off to Zefal for the quality of their product.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2016 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-07-15 07:03, sms wrote:
>>
>>
>> When I fabricate metal brackets for a bicycle they usually get enclosed
>> in heat shrink tubing, which eliminates the need for a lot of grinding
>> or sanding, but I do round the edges at the end.
>>
>
> Same here. Always. I also point such stuff out to other "bike modders".
> Like a dirt biker who made himself larger racks. One of the bottom frame
> mounts could have sliced off or at least deeply into his right foot if
> he'd be rear-ended so he modified that part.

They could have sliced off his foot?? Really?? Has that _ever_ happened?

And remember, the discussion was originally about a tiny fender mounting
bracket. Those barely protrude at all. Can't we do a reasonable
assessment of hazard before raving?

What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

Riding in a group with sharp fenders is an ignorant thing to do
bordering on the criminal.

>
>> After all, no bikes = no more cuts by bicycles and no more bicycle
>> deaths. Think of it. 700 innocent people, many of them women and
>> children, saved from an untimely death?
>>
>

Jeez.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-15 08:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/15/2016 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 07:03, sms wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> When I fabricate metal brackets for a bicycle they usually get enclosed
>>> in heat shrink tubing, which eliminates the need for a lot of grinding
>>> or sanding, but I do round the edges at the end.
>>>
>>
>> Same here. Always. I also point such stuff out to other "bike modders".
>> Like a dirt biker who made himself larger racks. One of the bottom frame
>> mounts could have sliced off or at least deeply into his right foot if
>> he'd be rear-ended so he modified that part.
>
> They could have sliced off his foot?? Really?? Has that _ever_ happened?
>
> And remember, the discussion was originally about a tiny fender mounting
> bracket. Those barely protrude at all. Can't we do a reasonable
> assessment of hazard before raving?
>

As I wrote before, I doubt you will understand this.

> What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?
>

Ever heard of bash guards?

[jbeattie]

Add a chain case, but that's another thread. We should have a national campaign -- "Save a chain, save a life. Friends don't let friends ride without a chain case."

It seems reasonable to remove sharp edges from sheet metal parts added to bikes. It seems even more reasonable to not add sheet metal parts to bikes when there are more appropriate and purpose specific parts. You can buy rubber coated clamps in a shop or the hardware store. http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/p-clamps-for-fender-attachment.html Why would you bother with pipe strap. You can buy appropriate HS lock nuts and don't need hose clamps. If you are riding a DUII bike held together with bailing wire, you have problems apart from having a few sharp edges.

As far as some guy modding a rack and creating a foot-severing hazard if he had been rear ended, I'll certainly keep that in mind then next time I'm fabricating an over-sized rack that I intend to mount on a dirt bike that will be subject to rear-end strikes. I'll come up with another design for use in dirt demolition derbies.

This thread is like the Wizard of Oz -- oscillating between "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!" and "If I only had a brain."

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 15:40:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>>>> No doubt, but to what extent? After all
>>>> a certain number of people die each year
>>>> from falling out of bed. Should we do as
>>>> the Japanese do, and sleep on the floor?
>>>> (think of the lives that would be saved :-)
>>>
>>> Actually, I already do that! It is easier to
>>> keep clean as there is no space under the
>>> bed, and the room gets "bigger", in and out
>>> of the bed :)
>>
>> And, if you stopped wearing your shoes in the
>> house the floor will stay clean for an
>> amazing length of time :-)
>
>... so you wear shoes indoors in Thailand?

No. Shoes aren't worn in the house and as a result no dirty floors :-)

>I know you don't have winters with snow and
>slush to bring in but isn't there like
>a monsoon season?
>
>Do the buddharupas appreciate the floors being
>wet like the Kon-Tiki balsa logs?

Generally speaking, some "City People" wear shoes, while nearly all
"Country People" wear sandals. Buddhist Monks wear sandals much of the
time out of doors but go barefoot during the morning rounds to collect
food (which silly foreigners call begging).

But "Wet Floors"? No, the Thais have discovered that if you build a
house "up on stilts", (with a top on it) you don't get wet floors :-)

As for the rainy season, the custom in the country is to have a
container of water and a dipper just outside the door so that one can
wash one's feet, if they are dirty, before entering the house. Not as
common in the cities where the roads are paved :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:55:24 -0400, Duane <duane....@group-upc.com>
wrote:

Is that why nearly all the bikes I see being ridden in groups don't
have any fenders? While many, maybe most. of the solo riders have
fenders.

I had always assumed that the fender less riders were what one might
call "fair weather" riders that stay inside when it rains while the
"fendered" riders were "real men" who rode, rain or shine.

>>
>>> After all, no bikes = no more cuts by bicycles and no more bicycle
>>> deaths. Think of it. 700 innocent people, many of them women and
>>> children, saved from an untimely death?
>>>
>>
>
>Jeez.
>
>> Those would be replaced by vastly more deaths due to COPD, diabetes and
>> so on.
>>

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:11:13 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Well, I am not so sure about utility and defense being the sole uses
of a kitchen knife. The facts are that, at least in Thailand, quite a
number of women have acted very aggressively with kitchen knives.

You see, Thai men are known to, what would one say, stray from the
marital bonds? And strange as it may be, quite a few Thai women get
very upset abut these extra-marital activities, to the extent that
they have decide to "excise" might one say, what they see as the
"root" of the problem, with a kitchen knife.

While this isn't a daily pastime it does occur frequently enough that
it is said that Thai doctors are the most skilled in the world at
reattaching severed members of the anatomy.

Except in cases where she cuts it off, throws it out the window and a
goose grabs it and runs away, as one newspaper reported :-)

>> Sharp edges on fenders? Maybe, but when you hit the tree at 30 KPH and
>> break your hip any scratches from the fenders is going to seem rather
>> incidental.
>>
>
>An "involuntary dismount" on a MTB at high speed is often caused by the
>bike abruptly stopping because of an obstacle while the rider you can
>fly off clean and roll. People who have done parachuting or Judo know
>how to roll properly to absorb energy in a non bone-crushing way. It
>would be nice not to find blood gushing from a cut afterwards,
>especially when this happens in the middle of nowhere. Smart bike
>dealers are keenly aware of this. When I mentioned I wanted to play
>around with stems and handlebar height my bike dealer (MTB competition
>rider) told me never to let the top washer stack exceed 5mm.
>
>I've had one high speed crash years ago where it went the other way. Was
>late, had to get home, singletrack, 20mph, 21mph, 22mph ... woohoo ...
>*THWOCK* ... a Manzanita branch grabbed my hydration pack and violently
>yanked me out of the saddle. The rear of the MTB slid through my legs
>(but no cuts because there is never anything sharp-edge on my bikes) and
>the bike continued alone until flipping over when it hit something. I
>rolled off to the side. Most amazing was that the hydration pack did not
>tear. Hats off to Zefal for the quality of their product.
--

cheers,

John B.

[sms]

I hate kludges. It's possible to fabricate non-kludgy clamps when
absolutely necessary, but with the ability to order these sorts of
things online there's a lot less need to do so.

When I needed a rear rack mount for my wife's mountain bike I saw that
Giant sold the exact part I needed--but did not market it in the U.S..
Fortunately, some company in California recognized the usefulness of the
part and managed to obtain some from Giant in another region.

<https://www.giant-bicycles.com/_pdf/gear/uk/giantbicycles-39114-giant.seat.collar.with.rack.mount.quick.release.pdf>

Someone wrote on the web site of the only company in the U.S. apparently
carrying this item: "My wife and I added rear racks to our Cannondale
Adventures. Hers being a small frame step thru style caused the rack to
interfere with the seat clamp's quick release. This clamp solved the
problem perfectly! This was the only solution I could find after hours
of internet research, and this was the only store that carried it.
Thanks so much!"
<https://www.amaincycling.com/giant-quick-release-seatpost-clamp-w-rack-mount-black-31.8mm--71608/p364008>.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> Generally speaking, some "City People" wear
> shoes, while nearly all "Country People" wear
> sandals. Buddhist Monks wear sandals much of
> the time out of doors but go barefoot during
> the morning rounds to collect food (which
> silly foreigners call begging).

You forgot about the Muay Thai fighters which
I happen to know do not wear anything on their
feet (contrary to boxers that wear special,
slick boots). I suppose this is because
kicking, kneeing, even the locking of a leg to
the side is allowed in Thai boxing...

> As for the rainy season, the custom in the
> country is to have a container of water and
> a dipper just outside the door so that one can
> wash one's feet, if they are dirty, before
> entering the house.

Wow! I'll remember that.

[John B.]

One can only speculate where it will end.

If a business sells someone a hot cup of coffee, they accept it, pay
for it and carry it away and than spill it, it is the seller's fault.
If the kid opens the drawers on a dresser and uses it for a ladder, it
is the sellers fault.

I see a report of the recall of a "bat cape" as apparently the general
public is too stupid to realize that if you tie something around your
neck and run about it could be dangerous.

I even read of a case where the town/city was repairing a sidewalk,
had set up warning sighs, flashing lights and barriers. Someone evaded
the barriers and walking across the unrepaired section of the walk
fell and injured themselves and was suing the city.

I also read that the Average U.S. family owes nearly $16,00 in credit
card debt.


--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Of course it is the "government's" duty to protect Mr., Mrs., and
those "others", from themselves. Destroying "improper" books as been
done in many places, but I now see that what was considered
"pornography", i.e., prurient material, without socially redeeming
qualities, is now seems to be perfectly legal.

Strange how "civilized" now seems to refer to two cars in the garage
and an automatic dishwasher, and, apparently, a total lack of what
used to be referred to morals.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:26:56 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

>I also read that the Average U.S. family owes nearly $16,00 in credit
>card debt.

I think you mean $16,000 per household or about $7,700 per individual.
It's much worse because only about 1/3 of the personal debt is in
credit card debt. It's quite a horror story:
<http://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-debt>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2016 12:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-07-15 08:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2016 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-07-15 07:03, sms wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I fabricate metal brackets for a bicycle they usually get enclosed
>>>> in heat shrink tubing, which eliminates the need for a lot of grinding
>>>> or sanding, but I do round the edges at the end.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Same here. Always. I also point such stuff out to other "bike modders".
>>> Like a dirt biker who made himself larger racks. One of the bottom frame
>>> mounts could have sliced off or at least deeply into his right foot if
>>> he'd be rear-ended so he modified that part.
>>
>> They could have sliced off his foot?? Really?? Has that _ever_
>> happened?
>>
>> And remember, the discussion was originally about a tiny fender mounting
>> bracket. Those barely protrude at all. Can't we do a reasonable
>> assessment of hazard before raving?
>>
>
> As I wrote before, I doubt you will understand this.

I admit, there's much about you that I don't understand. And I don't
seem to be alone.

>
>> What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?
>>
> Ever heard of bash guards?

Yes, and I recognize the trick of responding to a question with a
question. But how about an answer?

What sort of guards do you have on your mountain bike's chainrings and
rear cogs? What sort of guards do you have on your road bike's
chainrings and rear cogs? Got photos?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 03:01:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> Generally speaking, some "City People" wear
>> shoes, while nearly all "Country People" wear
>> sandals. Buddhist Monks wear sandals much of
>> the time out of doors but go barefoot during
>> the morning rounds to collect food (which
>> silly foreigners call begging).
>
>You forgot about the Muay Thai fighters which
>I happen to know do not wear anything on their
>feet (contrary to boxers that wear special,
>slick boots). I suppose this is because
>kicking, kneeing, even the locking of a leg to
>the side is allowed in Thai boxing...

No I didn't forget :-0

But, I guess that the arena might be considered as "in doors", and I
suspect that a stout pair of boots might be seen as giving an unfair
advantage to the kicker :-)

But generally speaking, going barefoot is not considered as abnormal,
particularly outside the cities.

>> As for the rainy season, the custom in the
>> country is to have a container of water and
>> a dipper just outside the door so that one can
>> wash one's feet, if they are dirty, before
>> entering the house.
>
>Wow! I'll remember that.

I don't know about Scandinavia (is that a proper term?) but I believe
that many British and quite a lot of U.S. farm houses had "Mud Rooms"
a small room built as part of an entrance where one removed one's
outdoor footwear as usually the Housewife objected strenuously when
the "Man of the House" came tramping into her kitchen with all the cow
manure on his boots.

They also act as a sort of "air lock" to keep the outside cold air out
of the house.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2016 8:47 PM, sms wrote:
>
> I hate kludges. It's possible to fabricate non-kludgy clamps when
> absolutely necessary, but with the ability to order these sorts of
> things online there's a lot less need to do so.

From Scharf's website, a photo of his "non-kludgy" headlight mounting.
http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg

I guess since it's "solid oak" it's not a kludge.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 09:56:33 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

> I don't know about Scandinavia (is that a proper term?) but I believe
> that many British and quite a lot of U.S. farm houses had "Mud Rooms"
> a small room built as part of an entrance where one removed one's
> outdoor footwear as usually the Housewife objected strenuously when
> the "Man of the House" came tramping into her kitchen with all the cow
> manure on his boots.

My sister's mud room includes a shower, a washer, and a dryer. A
flying farmer I knew in the forties went her one better and had a
shower in his hanger. Everyone thought it was a marvelous idea, but
most of us were still stoked about having running water in the house
and I don't remember that anyone else ran plumbing to the barn.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:30:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:26:56 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
>wrote:
>
>>I also read that the Average U.S. family owes nearly $16,00 in credit
>>card debt.
>
>I think you mean $16,000 per household or about $7,700 per individual.
>It's much worse because only about 1/3 of the personal debt is in
>credit card debt. It's quite a horror story:
><http://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-debt>

Well yes, per household may be correct although the article I read
said family. Assuming, I guess that a family equaled a household, I
suppose.

Whether "horror" is the correct term I'm not quite sure.

From: https://www.psychologytoday.com
"Self-control separates us from our ancient ancestors and the rest of
the animal kingdom, thanks to our large prefrontal cortex. It is the
ability to subdue our impulses in order to achieve longer-term goals.
Rather than responding to immediate impulses, we can plan, evaluate
alternative actions, and, often enough, avoid doing things we'll later
regret."
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I remember houses with running water. A hand pump at the kitchen sink
:-)

But if electricity had gotten as far as the "your house" it was pretty
common to have water piped to the barn. If "barn" meant a building
where animals were kept. Which was common in New England.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I hope that starts soon. It will be a big improvement if it
ever happens.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

almost tore off muh left hand falling into a seam hidden under 4" of muddy water.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-15 19:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/15/2016 12:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 08:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?
>>>
>> Ever heard of bash guards?
>
> Yes, and I recognize the trick of responding to a question with a
> question.

You just did that.


> ... But how about an answer?

>
> What sort of guards do you have on your mountain bike's chainrings and
> rear cogs? What sort of guards do you have on your road bike's
> chainrings and rear cogs? Got photos?
>

Only one of the MTB has a protection ring, the other still needs one but
it is a tight fit. The road bike doesn't have one, it is a very old and
now non-standard mount. The risk of being sliced by the chain ring is
low, especially since when riding at a good clip the chain is always on
the big ring.

The main reason for MTB bash guards is rock hits, the fixed and the
flying kind.

[Joerg]

Real men ride without fenders even through mud and look the part afterwards.

[...]

[Joerg]

My rear rack came with a QR. The QR was the first thing I replaced with
a beefy bolt and nut. After the first ride. If you only carry a rain
jacket and a sandwich on the rack a QR may be ok but not under heavy
load on bush roads.

[Joerg]

Beautiful! Gives me an idea. So far I've used Delrin but oak looks a lot
more posh and can also be stained to match the style.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/16/2016 10:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-07-15 19:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/15/2016 12:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-07-15 08:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>
>>>> What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?
>>>>
>>> Ever heard of bash guards?
>>
>> Yes, and I recognize the trick of responding to a question with a
>> question.
>
>
> You just did that.

What I wrote just above was not a question, Joerg. And what I wrote
just below was a restatement of my previous question, hoping to shame an
answer out of you.

>
>
>> ... But how about an answer?
>>
>> What sort of guards do you have on your mountain bike's chainrings and
>> rear cogs? What sort of guards do you have on your road bike's
>> chainrings and rear cogs? Got photos?
>>
>
> Only one of the MTB has a protection ring, the other still needs one but
> it is a tight fit. The road bike doesn't have one, it is a very old and
> now non-standard mount. The risk of being sliced by the chain ring is
> low, especially since when riding at a good clip the chain is always on
> the big ring.

IOW, on your mountain bike, you protect against the sharp edges of
sprocket teeth only on one chainring and on zero rear cogs. On your
road bike, you don't protect against any of those sharp edges. Yet you
give dire warnings about a tiny bracket on a fender.

The one bit of sanity buried in your response is this: "The risk of
being sliced by a chain ring is low..." Yes, you're finally correct:
the risk of hazard should be realistically examined before we go
ballistic with protection measures.

You have a long track record of "Danger! Danger!" warnings regarding
risks that essentially never happen - or at least, never happen to
anyone but you and your astonishing circle of acquaintances.

Examples have been bike brakes that won't stop you from running into
mountain lions; country roads that are populated only by homicidal
motorists; mountain biking trails that are safe only with mega-lumen
daytime headlights; bike components that fail and force you to starve to
death in the back country.

And most recently, fender mounting brackets that can sever a rider's
foot. Sheesh!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

"Kludge" is something that is mechanically and/or electrically fragile
and temporary. You see bicycles with hose clamps, electrical tape,
bungee cords, etc. holding things together.

Many years ago I went on a "Christmas Lights" ride. This was before the
availability of good bicycle lights, and many riders had home made light
systems, including me. Many of the them were not well designed, and as
we rode, pieces began falling off into the road.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-16 08:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/16/2016 10:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 19:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2016 12:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-07-15 08:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>> What do you do about the edges of your chainrings and rear cogs?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of bash guards?
>>>
>>> Yes, and I recognize the trick of responding to a question with a
>>> question.
>>
>>
>> You just did that.
>
> What I wrote just above was not a question, Joerg. And what I wrote
> just below was a restatement of my previous question, hoping to shame an
> answer out of you.
>

Underlined.

>>
>>
>>> ... But how about an answer?
>>>
>>> What sort of guards do you have on your mountain bike's chainrings and
>>> rear cogs? What sort of guards do you have on your road bike's
>>> chainrings and rear cogs? Got photos?
>>>
>>
>> Only one of the MTB has a protection ring, the other still needs one but
>> it is a tight fit. The road bike doesn't have one, it is a very old and
>> now non-standard mount. The risk of being sliced by the chain ring is
>> low, especially since when riding at a good clip the chain is always on
>> the big ring.
>
> IOW, on your mountain bike, you protect against the sharp edges of
> sprocket teeth only on one chainring and on zero rear cogs. On your
> road bike, you don't protect against any of those sharp edges. Yet you
> give dire warnings about a tiny bracket on a fender.
>
> The one bit of sanity buried in your response is this: "The risk of
> being sliced by a chain ring is low..." Yes, you're finally correct:
> the risk of hazard should be realistically examined before we go
> ballistic with protection measures.
>
> You have a long track record of "Danger! Danger!" warnings regarding
> risks that essentially never happen - or at least, never happen to
> anyone but you and your astonishing circle of acquaintances.
>

If you had read more carefully you'd have noticed that it has happened.
A guy sliced deep into a calf muscle with a home-made fenders during a
crash.

> Examples have been bike brakes that won't stop you from running into
> mountain lions; country roads that are populated only by homicidal
> motorists; mountain biking trails that are safe only with mega-lumen
> daytime headlights; bike components that fail and force you to starve to
> death in the back country.
>
> And most recently, fender mounting brackets that can sever a rider's
> foot. Sheesh!
>

Your seem to have a real comprehension issue.

a. The potential severing piece was _not_ a fender part but a bracket
for other purposes low on a motorcycle.

b. We were discussing easy to achieve protection, for example by simply
filing down and sanding sharp edges. Which you promptly derided (not
surprise). Mounting bash guards on bikes with non-standard setup is a
different ballgame.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-16 08:30, sms wrote:
> On 7/16/2016 7:57 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 20:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2016 8:47 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hate kludges. It's possible to fabricate non-kludgy clamps when
>>>> absolutely necessary, but with the ability to order these sorts of
>>>> things online there's a lot less need to do so.
>>>
>>> From Scharf's website, a photo of his "non-kludgy" headlight mounting.
>>> http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg
>>>
>>> I guess since it's "solid oak" it's not a kludge.
>>>
>>
>> Beautiful! Gives me an idea. So far I've used Delrin but oak looks a lot
>> more posh and can also be stained to match the style.
>
> "Kludge" is something that is mechanically and/or electrically fragile
> and temporary.

Kludges often last the longest.


> ... You see bicycles with hose clamps, electrical tape,

> bungee cords, etc. holding things together.
>
> Many years ago I went on a "Christmas Lights" ride. This was before the
> availability of good bicycle lights, and many riders had home made light
> systems, including me. Many of the them were not well designed, and as
> we rode, pieces began falling off into the road.
>

Mine didn't fall apart. Back in the 80's I had a battery inside a sturdy
mount and on some bikes even a small dashboard. Though I abandonded that
because it attracted too much riff-raff milling about my bike.

Today it's the same, all made with "kludgy" materials from hardware
stores and such but much better than anything the bicycle accessory
industry managed to come up with. Like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox2.JPG

This has gone through more than 1000 hard trail miles by now, been hit
by rocks, mud, wood pieces and all kinds of other stuff. Including a
ride where 4h was in hard rain (it's sealed and has a weep hole).

[sms]

On 7/16/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Your seem to have a real comprehension issue.

Like for 20 years.

> a. The potential severing piece was _not_ a fender part but a bracket
> for other purposes low on a motorcycle.
>
> b. We were discussing easy to achieve protection, for example by simply
> filing down and sanding sharp edges. Which you promptly derided (not
> surprise). Mounting bash guards on bikes with non-standard setup is a
> different ballgame.

I recall when GM decided to save money by not removing sharp edges on
metal supports underneath the front seats of some of their vehicles. The
fact is that people reach under the seats all the time, they hide things
there when parked, they use it as a storage area for chargers, bottles
of water, razors, etc..

You could see posts by apologists claiming that it wasn't an issue
because no one should ever be reaching under their seats for anything,
and attacking the person who posted that he needed stitches after
reaching under the seat. In later models, Saturn fixed the problem, so
clearly they were aware of it.

<http://www.ringcar.com/12_de15dc924ef7b915_1.htm>

If you've ever gone through UL, CSA, or TUV safety approvals on a
product they are very thorough about finding exposed safety hazards.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[sms]

That's not a kludge. You're not holding it to the rack with cable ties
or bungee cords. It's in a solid case. You're solidly mounting it to the
rack. You're using fender washers. You have lock nuts on the outside.

I think one thing you should do is to put a toggle switch rubber cover
on the switch.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/16/2016 5:04 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> If you've ever gone through UL, CSA, or TUV safety approvals on a
> product they are very thorough about finding exposed safety hazards.

Have you boys forgotten that this is not an "exposed" safety hazard?
It's a tiny bracket to attach stays to a fender. It probably protrudes
no more than 1/10 inch.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/SKS_stay_endIMG_4322.JPG

Despite Joerg's hype, it's unlikely to ever scratch anybody. And if it
does, it will be literally a scratch. It certainly won't cut someone's
foot off, as Joerg implied!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

No, Frank, that was the home-brew rack with the built-in foot-slicer -- and not a fender. Fenders stays are even more dangerous and can penetrate your brain. I've quit using fenders because they are dangerous. Spokes can be dangerous when they break, too -- so I quit using those. And my threadless stem has more than 5mm of spacers on top. I might as well have a spear pointed at my chest. I had a friend who forgot to put caps on his brake cable ends, and one punctured his aorta in a crash. That's why I switched to hydraulic brakes. And now I wear full body armor and bubble wrap.

-- Jay Beattie

P.S. -- my son told me a hilarious story about a middle-aged woman who came into his shop looking for body armor for a fire-road ride with her girlfriends. He tried to sell her some knee pads, but they were too expensive.

[John B.]

I suggest NOT holding your breath while waiting :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 14:04:07 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Well, I am fairly sure that I am not only older than you but my guess
is that I've been fooling with bicycles, scooters, cars and
motorcycles for a lot longer than you also. My first "car" was a 1937
Chevy coupe.

I have never seen an seat bracket that showed any indication of
deliberate removal of sharp edges. And out of curiosity I just went
out and had a look at my wife's 2 year old Honda "Jazz" and it shows
no indication of any deliberate rounding or other form of removal of
sharp edges, and some of the seat brackets do show very obvious
"burrs" from stamping and shearing to shape.

And I might add, I have never known anyone who severely cut their hand
fooling about under the seat either.

And, I might add that your reference above did not say that the car
company actually did anything about the problem that he says existed.
He actually says " I believe that Saturn has changed the undercarriage
design of their seats for the current model..."

Now "changing the design" is not "rounding the edges" nor he give any
other indication that either his insurance company or Saturn even
replied to his complaint.

And I suppose that you read the responses to your expert's post? The
reply immediately below reads "It sounds like you are trying to scam
Saturn for money to compensate you for your own carelessness."

And the one just below that reads, in part, " I wonder if he'll sue
Bic the next time he cuts himself shaving? :)"

Your arguments are silly and your quoted authority was accused of
fraud.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I believe that some motorcyclists actually wear clothes with some form
of built in "armour", probably Kevlar, or some such stuff. See
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle-protective-gear

And, I just discovered that bicyclists have it too. see
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/body-armour

By gory, these two wheeled death machines seem pretty dangerous to me.
I'm positively amazed that my 12 year old grand daughter dares to ride
one. I tried, God knows I tried, to explain to her how dangerous that
machine was and she just looked at me...
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:30:12 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/16/2016 7:57 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 20:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2016 8:47 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hate kludges. It's possible to fabricate non-kludgy clamps when
>>>> absolutely necessary, but with the ability to order these sorts of
>>>> things online there's a lot less need to do so.
>>>
>>> From Scharf's website, a photo of his "non-kludgy" headlight mounting.
>>> http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg
>>>
>>> I guess since it's "solid oak" it's not a kludge.
>>>
>>
>> Beautiful! Gives me an idea. So far I've used Delrin but oak looks a lot
>> more posh and can also be stained to match the style.
>
>"Kludge" is something that is mechanically and/or electrically fragile
>and temporary. You see bicycles with hose clamps, electrical tape,
>bungee cords, etc. holding things together.

You English knowledge seems a bit weak. From the dictionary:

kludge ~ noun
A badly assembled collection of parts hastily assembled to serve some
particular purpose .

Nothing at all about" fragile and temporary".

>
>Many years ago I went on a "Christmas Lights" ride. This was before the
>availability of good bicycle lights, and many riders had home made light
>systems, including me. Many of the them were not well designed, and as
>we rode, pieces began falling off into the road.

--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Right. $19.95 at a bike shop versus screaming deals on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/ballistic-ceramic-plate?rmvSB=true

[Joerg]

That's where to a large extent I learned this stuff (others obviously
not). All med tech designs have to go through tests where a cutting or
intrusion hazard would immediately be flagged and they'd send you back
to the drawing board. Rightfully so.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-16 14:08, sms wrote:
> On 7/16/2016 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-16 08:30, sms wrote:

[...]

>>> ... You see bicycles with hose clamps, electrical tape,
>>> bungee cords, etc. holding things together.
>>>
>>> Many years ago I went on a "Christmas Lights" ride. This was before the
>>> availability of good bicycle lights, and many riders had home made light
>>> systems, including me. Many of the them were not well designed, and as
>>> we rode, pieces began falling off into the road.
>>>
>>
>> Mine didn't fall apart. Back in the 80's I had a battery inside a sturdy
>> mount and on some bikes even a small dashboard. Though I abandonded that
>> because it attracted too much riff-raff milling about my bike.
>>
>> Today it's the same, all made with "kludgy" materials from hardware
>> stores and such but much better than anything the bicycle accessory
>> industry managed to come up with. Like this:
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox2.JPG
>
> That's not a kludge. You're not holding it to the rack with cable ties
> or bungee cords. It's in a solid case. You're solidly mounting it to the
> rack. You're using fender washers. You have lock nuts on the outside.
>
> I think one thing you should do is to put a toggle switch rubber cover
> on the switch.
>

I had that but it flew off. So I used some grease. It's mainly just so
water won't get in. The purpose of the switch is to be able to remove
power from the MTB after a crash, just like the "bone" switch they have
on rallye cars. Also goes off in the garage because else the status LED
on the front light would eat up the battery juice if parked longer than
a week without the charger connected.

[Joerg]

On 2016-07-17 04:03, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:30:12 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/16/2016 7:57 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-07-15 20:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 7/15/2016 8:47 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I hate kludges. It's possible to fabricate non-kludgy clamps when
>>>>> absolutely necessary, but with the ability to order these sorts of
>>>>> things online there's a lot less need to do so.
>>>>
>>>> From Scharf's website, a photo of his "non-kludgy" headlight mounting.
>>>> http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg
>>>>
>>>> I guess since it's "solid oak" it's not a kludge.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Beautiful! Gives me an idea. So far I've used Delrin but oak looks a lot
>>> more posh and can also be stained to match the style.
>>
>> "Kludge" is something that is mechanically and/or electrically fragile
>> and temporary. You see bicycles with hose clamps, electrical tape,
>> bungee cords, etc. holding things together.
>
> You English knowledge seems a bit weak. From the dictionary:
>
> kludge ~ noun
> A badly assembled collection of parts hastily assembled to serve some
> particular purpose .
>
> Nothing at all about" fragile and temporary".
>

Like this phone wiring "panel" in Lebanon? :-)

http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/slides/beirut-telco-01.html

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 14:09:34 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>

wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:30:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:26:56 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I also read that the Average U.S. family owes nearly $16,00 in credit
>>>card debt.
>>
>>I think you mean $16,000 per household or about $7,700 per individual.
>>It's much worse because only about 1/3 of the personal debt is in
>>credit card debt. It's quite a horror story:
>><http://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-debt>
>
>Well yes, per household may be correct although the article I read
>said family. Assuming, I guess that a family equaled a household, I
>suppose.

Household is the current politically correct term for family, which
includes various non-traditional forms of cohabitation and communal
living, including the nuclear family.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family>

>Whether "horror" is the correct term I'm not quite sure.

I sometimes help friends with their personal finances and associated
calculations. The average household income in the US is about
$54,000. A $16,000 annual debt means that 30% of the gross goes to
servicing the principal, and probably another 10% servicing the
interest. Taxes will typically gobble about 25% and housing another
25% leaving 10% to pay for transport, medical, food, toys etc. The
only way out is to convert the short term credit card debt into a long
term "home improvement" loan, which effectively makes the debt almost
permanent. Yeah, it's a horror story.

>From: https://www.psychologytoday.com
>"Self-control separates us from our ancient ancestors and the rest of
>the animal kingdom, thanks to our large prefrontal cortex. It is the
>ability to subdue our impulses in order to achieve longer-term goals.
>Rather than responding to immediate impulses, we can plan, evaluate
>alternative actions, and, often enough, avoid doing things we'll later
>regret."

Delayed gratification? I want it all and I want it now.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558