skyrides are at it again?
Rex Mayes
Soaring Sports and has become an SSA business member to hyjack the
F.A.S.T program in order to sell rides.
Some operators will not do business with Sky Rides by honoring the
certificates it sells. Sky Rides has contacted the SSA to sell the
F.A.S.T. program to unknowing customers. These customers call a
gliderport to redeem the F.A.S.T certificate and the operator has no
idea that it was not sold by the SSA but rather, by the Sky Rides
company.
Can any of the operators confirm this?
Frank Whiteley
Contact Rob Barber (GA) and discuss this directly. I've had some
recent discussions with him on this matter, including the issues
caused by Sky Rides and the type of approach needed to make it
acceptable. He should not be offering certificates and packages for
those clubs and commercial operators that he doesn't have an agreement
with to do so.
Frank Whiteley
Darryl Ramm
These folks have a history of operating cons and scams. They've been investigated by multiple media sources and consumer affairs groups. They've had membership of organizations like the PGA suspended. WTF is there to discuss? These folks should never be an SSA business member and this just needs to be undone asap.
http://www.1800skyrideripoff.com/adventure
http://www.hotairballooning.com/thrillplanet.php
http://skydivekansas.com/resources/scam.shtml
Just Google any of these name, they are all Ben Butler and the other same assholes.
Darryl
Darryl Ramm
Soaring Sports
2593 Kennesaw Due West Rd NW
Kennesaw, GA 30144
The Georgia address should have been a clue.
I guess somebody at the SSA was asleep given all the past publicity these scammers have generated here and elsewhere and the efforts of folks like Drew Pearce to warn the soaring community about these folks.
I'll be very disappointed with the SSA when I check tomorrow if this con scheme is still listed as a business affiliates.
Darryl
JayM
I talked with Mr Barber today also and it seemed like a good idea at
the time.
But if they are really a re-wrapped Scam outfit we need to nip it
soon.
I wonder how much more than the usual $99 they will charge in order to
make a profit?
Darryl Ramm
Who is "Mr. Barber"?
These guys are a scam factory that has hundreds of web sites. They were prosecuted by the state of Georgia who prevailed and the parent company are under a consent order to control how they operate. A copy of that order is here http://funjumper.com/skyride/gadoc.pdf. A quick look at some of their web sites shows they are likely in violation of some of the terms of that consent order. Unfortunately there are lots of tangled companies and web sites so unraveling this can be a mess, and who knows what games they are playing now with company registrations, registered company directors, web sites etc.
It is a scam, sorry that SSA folks got suckered by them. What matters now is the SSA executing fast and removing them from any involvement with the SSA.
I should also point out that the company SkySports is not a registered business in Georgia (go check http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/csearch.asp), I would really appreciate the SSA checking that companies they list a partners are actual legal business entities and if operating under a DBA then provide that information.
Darryl
Ramy
> Who is "Mr. Barber"?
>
> These guys are a scam factory that has hundreds of web sites. They were prosecuted by the state of Georgia who prevailed and the parent company are under a consent order to control how they operate. A copy of that order is here http://funjumper.com/skyride/gadoc.pdf. A quick look at some of their web sites shows they are likely in violation of some of the terms of that consent order. Unfortunately there are lots of tangled companies and web sites so unraveling this can be a mess, and who knows what games they are playing now with company registrations, registered company directors, web sites etc.
>
> It is a scam, sorry that SSA folks got suckered by them. What matters now is the SSA executing fast and removing them from any involvement with the SSA.
>
>
> Darryl
Besides scamming people out of their money, as an example of their
shady practice, I found some of my photos in their website taken
without permission. I also found a photo taken by a friend from inside
the cockpit where his legs were hidden behind the instrument panel.
They used his photo to show that handicap people can also fly...
Ramy
Darryl Ramm
Darryl
Darryl Ramm
I thought I recognized that photo. Its a BASA (Bay Area Soaring Associates) glider. The image is likely stolen from here http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/001070.html I've let Jeremy know.
BTW it is kind of ironic they stole a photo of a BASA glider since BASA works with Hollister Soaring for tows in the SF Bay Area and that Drew Pearce the previous owner of Hollister Soaring had major issues with people turning up tryign to redeem these scam coupons for Glider Rides. Drew had put together material online and information he sent out to other glider FBOs etc. (and I expect but am not sure that this also went to the SSA as well). I can't find that now but some of Drew's comments from those experiences are at http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/yes-it-is-a-scam-c14757.html
Darryl
Darryl Ramm
I'll get in touch with Drew so he can add the latest scam web site (and proud SSA business partner) to his list.
Darryl
Clyde Rasmusen
One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.
See:
www.m.superpages.com/mobile/yellow.sp?src=wap&output=xml&lid=0113644510
No accident the web link leads you to: www.lvvsa.org and their phone
number.
According to the local flying attourneys, this club is listed with
the Internal Revenue Service and Clark County as a non-profit organization.
Also advertises in the local yellow business pages and not for FAST rides
although an SSA afiliated club.
Just how many millions of dollars did Skydive Arizona win from Skyride for
misrepresentation, fraud, defamation, trademark infringement and lost
revenues?
See: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=606
So who pays the fines, legal fees and verifiable loss of income when the
glider club gets caught? Unaware club members with their dues and assets or
the bond and note holders.
Word of caution. Dangerous waters, glider clubs.
CLYDE R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 23:15 22 August 2011, JayM wrote:
>On Aug 22, 1:06=A0pm, Rex Mayes wrote:
>> It seems that the company SkyRides has now formed a new company called
>> Soaring Sports and has become an SSA business member to hyjack the
>> F.A.S.T program in order to sell rides.
>>
>> Some operators will not do business with Sky Rides by honoring the
>> certificates it sells. =A0Sky Rides has contacted the SSA to sell the
>> F.A.S.T. program to unknowing customers. =A0These customers call a
Clyde Rasmusen
One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.
See:
www.m.superpages.com/mobile/yellow.sp?src=wap&output=xml&lid=0113644510
No accident the web link leads you to: www.lvvsa.org and their phone
number.
According to the local flying attourneys, this club is listed with
the Internal Revenue Service and Clark County as a non-profit organization.
Also advertises in the local yellow business pages and not for FAST rides
although an SSA afiliated club.
Just how many millions of dollars did Skydive Arizona win from Skyride for
misrepresentation, fraud, defamation, trademark infringement and lost
revenues?
See: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=606
So who pays the fines, legal fees and verifiable loss of income when the
glider club gets caught? Unaware club members with their dues and assets or
the bond and note holders.
Word of caution. Dangerous waters, glider clubs.
CLYDE R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 23:15 22 August 2011, JayM wrote:
>On Aug 22, 1:06=A0pm, Rex Mayes wrote:
>> It seems that the company SkyRides has now formed a new company called
>> Soaring Sports and has become an SSA business member to hyjack the
>> F.A.S.T program in order to sell rides.
>>
>> Some operators will not do business with Sky Rides by honoring the
>> certificates it sells. =A0Sky Rides has contacted the SSA to sell the
>> F.A.S.T. program to unknowing customers. =A0These customers call a
Grider Pirate
<remove_to_reply.glider...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It is just as sleazy some places on the other side.
>
> One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
> of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.
>
> See:www.m.superpages.com/mobile/yellow.sp?src=wap&output=xml&lid=0113644510
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Excuse me?? I've been a member of the LVVSA for 10 years now. LVVSA
does not, never has, and never will give glider rides for profit. We
participate in the FAST program. When people call looking to 'take a
ride' in a glider, we refer them to the local commercial operator. I
personally give about a dozen rides a year - splitting the cost of the
tow and glider with the rider, or in many cases simply paying for the
entire ride myself.
jim archer
> On Aug 22, 11:10 pm, Clyde Rasmusen
>
>
>
>
>
> <remove_to_reply.glider...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > It is just as sleazy some places on the other side.
>
> > One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
> > of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.
>
> > See:www.m.superpages.com/mobile/yellow.sp?src=wap&output=xml&lid=0113644510
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just for proof, I second Grider Pirate's comments, I am a fellow LVVSA
member as well and that is the truth. Clyde has it wrong and I'm
guessing he/she is part of the scam. No suprise the link does not
work. And thanks again to Darryl's for his accurate (as usual) work
with this.
Frank Whiteley
> On Aug 22, 11:10 pm, Clyde Rasmusen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <remove_to_reply.glider...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > It is just as sleazy some places on the other side.
>
> > One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
> > of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.
>
> > See:www.m.superpages.com/mobile/yellow.sp?src=wap&output=xml&lid=0113644510
>
I think Clyde is referring to
http://www.soaringcenter.net/
being the 'real' Las Vegas Glider Rides and somehow the Superpages
listing is an attempt to 'hijack' this. However, my business is
listed in Superpages (among 28 others, some of which have no actual
presence or capability here). So using that as some kind of proof is
bogus. No idea what the local
Perhaps that's the commercial operator you mention.
I searched for Las Vegas Glider Rides on dexknows.com for Las Vegas
and found nothing. It did appear for Jean, NV and was the club's
phone and address. Did the same for Yellowpages.com for Las Vegas and
it linked to the club. However the website description talked about
it being a member organization with no mention of glider rides. In
neither case did the Soaring Center get resolved, so maybe they
haven't paid for any advertising or listings.
Clubs are not prohibited from giving rides if their insurance permits
it and they comply with the appropriate FARs. However, they can't
provide competing services at the same airport as a commercial
operator. That's an IRS restriction. They can provide training to
members only and redeeming FAST packages means they must make that
person a member of the club/chapter and complete the SSA Introductory
Membership if participating in the SSA Group Insurance Plan.
A non-profit organization can make a profit. The restriction is what
is done with the profit. It must be directed back into the stated
purpose of the organization. Non-profits may also have unrelated
income, for which they will incur a tax liability.
Type Las Vegas Glider Rides into Google and see what you get and the
order.
That said, my opinion is that clubs shouldn't provide ride services as
a general rule, but concentrate on growing their club and soaring.
Club rides are generally priced such that it's not a big revenue
stream. That said, there is at least one SSA region with no
commercial operation. Selling rides to the public denies other
members use of the equipment and perhaps instructors. In a club/
chapter, it's the membership that's important. Introductory
memberships and mini-courses of 3-4 lessons allow a prospective full
member to see if they are a good fit for the club and for soaring as
an activity as an exploratory stepping stone, rather than asking them
to plunk down the big money to join up to find that out. It provides
3 or 4 opportunities to set the hook, to soar away for an hour, and
they hold in their hand a logbook with actual flight lessons logged.
It also sets a price point that drives away the drive-by joy rides.
Frank Whiteley
Drew Pearce
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.
If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?
The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.
Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.
A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.
Drew Pearce
JayM
As the current Treasurer and long time board member of Las Vegas
Valley Soaring Association I can assure you that we do NOT sell
commercial glider rides.
Our insurance doesn't cover it and we are not interested in that kind
of business.
We refer all of those folks to (702)874-1010, the local commercial
glider business run by Michael Henderson.
They have been known as Las Vegas Glider Rides or the Las Vegas
Soaring Center depending on what year and what document is used.
Any connection of our club to that operation is a typographical error
or an error in someone's research.
We do support the FAST program as implemented by SSA.
Jay McDaniel
T
> being the 'real' Las Vegas Glider Rides and somehow the Superpages
> listing is an attempt to 'hijack' this. However, my business is
> listed in Superpages (among 28 others, some of which have no actual
> presence or capability here). So using that as some kind of proof is
> bogus. No idea what the local
>
> Perhaps that's the commercial operator you mention.
>
> I searched for Las Vegas Glider Rides on dexknows.com for Las Vegas
> and found nothing. It did appear for Jean, NV and was the club's
> phone and address. Did the same for Yellowpages.com for Las Vegas and
> it linked to the club. However the website description talked about
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The number I found looking up LAS VEGAS GLIDER RIDES in DEX is
actually the company number, not the club number.
Searching LAS VEGAS GLIDER RIDES in YELLOWBOOK does list the club and
the club phone number. We have no control over how Yellow Book runs
their search engine.
Bill Tisdale
T
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Frank.. and others..
I can assure you that the Southern NV Club, LVVSA, listed in the
original post has been in existance for over 20 years and a Charter
Club listed under SAA. We have been registered with the State of NV
for as many years as a "not for profit" club. We are not a 501C3 or
501c7 club for the IRS purposes.
The "Commercial" Operation at Jean has only been in existance a few
years and piggy backed on our name by using Las Vegas Glider Rides or
Las Vegas Soaring Center.
We at LVVSA have not contracted with any advertiser such as SUPERPAGES
or DEXKNOWS or any company to advertise our soaring club. Those
companies compile information from the local telephone yellow pages
and internet data miners to try and put something together and then
"sell" their adveristing to the user.
I've contacted many companies listed in DEX or SUPERPAGES that have
not contracted with those companies and had to put up with the FALSE
advertising those companies produce without a contract.
And just who to @#$%@#%$ is this CLYDE character that has no idea of
what he speaks.
Maybe he should come down to the Club and See the difference between
the CLUB and the other oufit that operates at Jean.
I would be glad to personally enlighten him.
We only accept FAST certificates and no others.
Bill Tisdale, Club President.
T
>
> - Show quoted text -
Interesting.. I had a longer post before this one.. and it has not
shown up yet.. Thank you GOOGLE GROUPS.
It needs to be read.
And CLYDE has no idea about what he's talking about.. I see he has
only two posts all year to this group.. unless Google Groups and
screwed that up too.
Bill
Darryl Ramm
Well those Skyride scumbags are likely reading this thread. One little mention here and that stolen photo of a BASA Pegasus in the top left hand corner has turned into a...LS? http://www.1800skyride.com/sports/adventure/glider-rides/index.php
Now for all the other stolen images they use...
Darryl
Alfaest
come to http://www.jammerall.com. it will surprise you, i have benefit
it a lot, jamming you and me.
--
Alfaest
Frank Whiteley
I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.
1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.
FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.
Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.
Soaring Adventures of America, www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.
The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.
I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.
Frank Whiteley
Bill D
> business member. They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
> rides. If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
> activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. I suspect this is
> probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
> the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.
>
> The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
> their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
> honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
> If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
> Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
> were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. Now if a soaring
> organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
> again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
> business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. It would be dumb to
> offer anything without a redemption agreement.
>
> I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.
>
> Frank Whiteley
Soaring does need promotion.
The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.
There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.
Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.
I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.
Rex Mayes
promotion should be done by the SSA, clubs and commercial operators
who actually provide the services.
Third party promoters rely on selling certificates and vouchers that
will never be used. This is not good for the sport. None of that
money is invested in soaring equipment, and infrastructure for
creating jobs for aspiring professional pilots.
A big issue with third party marketers is that they are not
interested in giving the customer the important information regarding
scheduling, weight and size limitations or hours of operation, just to
name a few. They sell the ride with a bunch of hype and the operator
is left with a disappointed (at best) customer for whom he will not be
paid enough to do the ride anyway.
I love America. We enjoy so many civil liberties and freedoms. This
is one of a few countries that people like me can enjoy making a
living with a great sport like soaring. With these liberties come
SCUM BAGS that just want to skim off the top. We see it in third party
marketing as well as internet based supply busnesses who do not have
any real skin in the game with tow or training operations.
We do not need government regulation to thwart this activity. We need
operators and glider pilots to evaluate where the value is. Is there
value in the quick sale that someone else goes out and gets? Is there
value in buying equipment from someone who is not otherwise keeping
the sport alive by providing your tows, training for new students,
advanced training for aspiring soaring pilots and recurrency training
for the rest, or providing repairs, inspections and instalation of the
equipment purchased?
My point is that we as a whole community allow for this kind of
activity and we can control it. The SSA can help with educating
operators and pilots about marketing and purchasing. People need to
know that where all the money goes, MATTERS!
Consider it.
Rex
T
We need more information from SSA HQ on this "deal" with Soaring
Sports.
We are a club, we do not advertise except through the SSA Where to Fly
web pages.
We are limited in how many students we can handle at a given time
because we only fly weekends, one primary 2-33 trainer and one tow
plane. There are times when we have a waiting list for new students
wanting to learn to fly.
We accept the SSA FAST certificates and keep a very small quantity
available to offer new students.
It is interesting that the call from soaring sports asking if we
accepted the SSA FAST certificate told us that we would have to redeem
"their" certificate with them for $50 and SSA for another $50. So we
would have to redeem it twice?
We are Las Vegas Valley Soaring Assoc, LVVSA, 702.470.1420, at Jean NV
for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general
public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs
around the country.
The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson, 702.470.1010. Mr.
Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
to Mr Henderson.
Tony V
> There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
> games are played with the money. This is mainly betting on a low
Bingo! I used to fly rides at a commercial operation (Salem NH). They
loved selling gift certificates as 40% were never redeemed. It was like
printing money.
Tony V. "6N"
Frank Whiteley
Off group.
Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider
episode, Michael Henderson?
Frank Whiteley
lanebush
These guys called me last week and asked if our club accepted FAST
certificates. I mumbled "yes" and he hung up. It really caught me by
surprise. I wonder if he marked me down as agreeing to let them
market our club?
Lane
mgh3485
Based on your message, it sounds like www.800soaring.com at least
attempts to behave responsibly.
However, observations thus far suggest that www.1800skyride.com is
engaging in unethical practices:
- Reusing photos without permission (I also assume the video is also
not their own)
- Plagiarizing text from other websites (including the SSA and Nutmeg
Soaring)
- Failing to establish agreements with operators (if they just call,
verify FAST, and then hang up... that is not an agreement)
- Allowing online purchase of the "Glider Ride Gift Certificate"
without any information on the specific locations, possibly baiting
customers who will be unable to use the certificate without full and
fair disclosure of what they are buying
Based on the online purchase link the price is $199, so they are
marking this up 100%. It sounds like they are trying to take
advantage of the FAST program. If they want to sell rides, let them
resell commercial rides based on a written agreement between ride
operators and the marketing company (like 800soaring apparently
does). That way all parties are engaging in an open transaction,
knowing what they are in for, and how the profits will be shared.
The FAST program is designed to allow people with a serious interest
in soaring instruction to get a start. The 1800skyride website does
not accurately represent the FAST program or its intent, yet this is
what they are apparently reselling. Is there not a rule against
reselling FAST certificates at a profit? It seems that given the
intent of the FAST program, only FAST member operators or the SSA
should allowed to sell these. 1800skyride appears to be using dubious
business practices to capture excess value from the consumer by
charging a much higher price. Both the customer and the program are
being violated in my opinion.
Furthermore, given the prior company history, and the questionable
approach of their current start it sounds like business as usual, not
“new management.” (Perhaps the new holding company is just a cover
for the old owners.) The old approach apparently led to many unhappy
customers, and it is likely to produce the same results again.
Soaring needs promotion, but not internet third-party promoters who
are behaving irresponsibly and unethically. As Rex points out, it
wouldn't take much for the key stakeholders (pilots, clubs, and
commercial operators) to take the lead in improving promotion and
marketing with a little help and guidance. That approach would create
real value for the sport.
Mike Hendron
GARY BOGGS
practices but with the new ownership they have made a complete turn
around. Our sport is terribly under exposed and under promoted. I
make the same money on a ride if they come to me thru skyride or if
they come to me directly. I pay other people a commission for
bringing me business, and I don't mind if skyride makes some money on
the customers that they bring to our sport. The SSA does not do
enough to get soaring out to the public. We need more exposure in my
opinion, and I think skyride is helping do that now.
Boggs
Frank Whiteley
This is on the SSA EXCOM agenda for this evening.
Have a look at this approach
http://www.discoverycenter.cc/testupload/classes/il0075.htm
It reflects an acceptable price for the CC registration (it used to be
$100) and a very reasonable price for the service AND LUNCH (it was
formerly $90 IIRC). The first day, a few years ago, 20 people showed
up. They put a six student limit on registration following that one.
Drawing on all of their resources they managed to serve all of the 20
students, but had to cancel some of their other customers. It's a two
hour drive from Chicago, plus toll roads. Now extend that a bit to a
mini-course of three lessons spread over at least two days and there
you go.
This is a very effective outreach approach that soaring organizations
should consider developing locally. Another offering might be a
glider pilot's ground school at an an adult continuing education
program.
And then there's the commercial operator that sold 500 flights in one
day via Groupon in his local market. Priced to make a profit. We're
still awaiting the final assessment on the fulfillment.
Frank Whiteley
T
> > for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general
> > public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs
> > around the country.
>
> > The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
> > Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
> > Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
> > to Mr Henderson.
>
> Off group.
> Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider
> episode, Michael Henderson?
>
> Frank Whiteley
Yes, and it was two different gliders.
T
Frank Whiteley
Clearly, as the defunct Sailplane Enterprises name was on the flying
version;^)