Intermittent Start - No Crank - 99 Sable

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

Greetings!

1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles

Sometimes after running the car around town, I return to the car, only to not be able to start it. I turn the key, all dash lights are on - no crank, no start, nothing. I hear the fuel pump charge, but that's it. I've had this problem for a few years now, and have been living with it, but now its getting worse.

Battery is good. Switched relays in the Power Junction Box - no difference. Replaced the neutral safety switch (transmission range sensor, etc.), but now I'm wondering if that NSS was bad? Tried starting in other gears (it actually has the same symptoms as trying to start in other gears). Starting in neutral is the same problem. Turn the key, and nothing. The NSS is tight, and like I said, will start fine, cold.

Checked the red wire from the battery (thru the Power Junction box) to the solenoid's primary power post - no juice when the car is acting up.

Seems if I let the car sit for 10 or 15 mins, it will start. I've heard people talk of an immobilizer, and the vehicle theft system, but I don't know the symptoms of those devices. Would they cause the engine *not* to crank?

Often, to force a start, I will pull back on the spring-loaded gear shift lever (column shift), and release it while the key is turned to START position. I may have to do it 10 or even 20 times, but eventually it starts. I found this out by trial and error.

Again - to summarize:

Checked battery
Starter (didn't go into detail, but checked the solenoid, and starter)
Replaced Neutral Safety Switch
Swapped relays in the Power Junction box (broken wire? how to check)
Oh, and replaced the Ignition Switch Block

I would like to bypass the NSS to see if that makes any difference. Anyone know what pin(holes) to jump to do that? Or how to find it out?

Thanks for taking a look!

RobN

[Jack Myers]

goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles

> <long tale of troubleshooting and woe snipped>
>
You are really doing everything you can to avoid replacing your
defective starter, aren't you.

On an old car it's common for the commutator to develop bad spots;
ditto the contacts in the solenoid. Heat sensitivity is a classic
symptom.

One of the armature windings to can open up completely, leaving you to
play another round of roulette each time you try to start it, because
if it stopped on a dead spot on your last start you have a problem.
Install in a cheap starter just on spec.

--
Jack Myers / Westminster, California, USA
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand
binary, and those who don't.

[Jack Myers]

goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:

> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles

> Checked the red wire from the battery (thru the Power Junction box) to the solenoid's primary power post - no juice when the car is acting up.
>

Oh, doesn't this model have a push-on connector for the solenoid coil?
Time and heat cycles cause the connector to loosen up. There's usually
oil, grease, and grime in the area. Some of the replacement units have a
wire lead and a crimp splice connector instead--a more reliable
solution.

--
Jack Myers / Westminster, California, USA

...and malt does more than Milton can
to justify God's ways to man. -A. E. Houseman

[JR]

Google,,, Worn out starter motor bushings Those bushings can do it too. There is an auto electric shop about one mile from me. Whenever I have a worn out starter motor I take it over there and let them rebuild it for me.

[dsi1]

On 7/5/2013 7:43 PM, Jack Myers wrote:
> goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles
>
>> <long tale of troubleshooting and woe snipped>
>>
> You are really doing everything you can to avoid replacing your
> defective starter, aren't you.

People in this group make automobile repair more complicated than it is.

[JR]

I say the more complicated cars get the more complicated they are to fix.

[dsi1]

We're talking about a problem with the starter. I suppose that it could
be some goofy, problem with the SecuriLock system but what's the point
of assuming that it's a goofy problem rather than a common everyday
problem? I've never had a neutral start switch fail either.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:43:16 PM UTC-7, Jack Myers wrote:
>
> > 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles

> > <long tale of troubleshooting and woe snipped>
>
> You are really doing everything you can to avoid replacing your
> defective starter, aren't you.
>
> On an old car it's common for the commutator to develop bad spots;
> ditto the contacts in the solenoid. Heat sensitivity is a classic
> symptom.

> One of the armature windings to can open up completely, leaving you to
> play another round of roulette each time you try to start it, because
> if it stopped on a dead spot on your last start you have a problem.
> Install in a cheap starter just on spec.
>

First and foremost - I thank all of you gentlemen for your responses. Not sure if I've solved this yet - but I'm getting closer. Advice is still sought out and appreciated.

An amendment - the thick red wire that attaches to the SOLENOID (I said the red wire attaches to the starter in the orig post) IS getting power - all the time. I must've had a bad ground for my test light the first time. Not sure if that means anything to the responders.

To further throw some light on this:

There is *no* power going thru the white/red wire from the ignition to the small middle post on the solenoid attached to the starter, when the, "no start/no crank" occurs. (Of course, the wire goes through the starter relay, and the NSS, AND THEN down to the solenoid.) Oh, for simpler days when it was a straight shot from the battery to the starter! (from my mouth to Ford designers ears)

Further effort and research shows that the small, middle ignition switch post on the solenoid doesn't receive a signal (12 volts) when I turn the key. I had to wrap a soft leather belt around the key and tie off the belt to the steering wheel to force the key to hold in the START position, in order to test for power to the small middle ignition post on the solenoid. Oh, BTW, that wire is attached with a post/screw combo - not a push-on connector, as Jack alluded to. Might have been replaced before I bought it.

On Saturday, I pulled the NSS connector off the neutral safety switch, and with a bent paperclip, I jumped the #10 pinhole (#10 embossed on the outside of the connector - brn/prpl wire) that receives 12 volts when the key is turned to START, to the #12 pinhole connected to the White/Red wire that travels down to the small ignition post on the solenoid - and turned the key. Please excuse the detail. Hopefully, this will help some other poor soul down the line.

Without fail, the car started.

I want to believe its the Neutral Safety Switch, but even after replacing it before (when I first had the problem, a few years back), it didn't help the problem - defective NSS?

I can't leave it jumped like that for obvious reasons. And, when I did that, I got a green, "O/D OFF" display on the dash lights that I'd never seen before, and it triggered a "Service Engine Soon" light. I believe that was because the first time I jumped the pinholes in the NSS connector, I already had the key forced in the START position and the solenoid was activated too long after the engine started. I haven't seen it since.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

I don't believe its a Starter problem. Probably the NSS - but tell me more about the Security Lock system. Are you referring to the PATS?

There was also a Clifford alarm installed before I bought it. Could that be it? I have no idea what the alarm did. The little 1/8" mono plug jack wore out to the point that I stopped activating it. Again, jumping the NSS connector starts the car. Not sure how the Clifford alarm is setup, but I think I'm going to try to yank that thing out.

[Paul in Houston TX]

goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles
>
> Sometimes after running the car around town, I return to the car,
> only to not be able to start it. I turn the key, all dash lights are
> on - no crank, no start, nothing. I hear the fuel pump charge, but
> that's it. I've had this problem for a few years now, and have been
> living with it, but now its getting worse.

Is the ignition switch properly adjusted?

[Jack Myers]

goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:43:16 PM UTC-7, Jack Myers wrote:
> >
> > > 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles

> > > <long tale of troubleshooting and woe snipped>
> >
> > You are really doing everything you can to avoid replacing your
> > defective starter, aren't you.
> >

> There is *no* power going thru the white/red wire from the ignition to the small middle post on the solenoid attached to the starter, when the, "no start/no crank" occurs. (Of course, the wire goes through the starter relay, and the NSS, AND THEN down to the solenoid.) Oh, for simpler days when it was a straight shot from the battery to the starter! (from my mouth to Ford designers ears)

> Further effort and research shows that the small, middle ignition switch post on the solenoid doesn't receive a signal (12 volts) when I turn the key. I had to wrap a soft leather belt around the key and tie off the belt to the steering wheel to force the key to hold in the START position, in order to test for power to the small middle ignition post on the solenoid.

Don't you have to have your foot on the brake, as well?

--
Jack Myers / Westminster, California, USA

Always make new mistakes. --Esther Dyson

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

Explain, please.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

That's a new one on me. I've only had to put my foot on the brake to shift out of Park. Regardless, I've tried every combination to try to force it to start - turn on/off hazard lights, windshield wipers, step on brake, move the shifter through all the gears a few times, blinkers, lights, interior lamps, on and on. That was how I discovered pulling back the shifter, and letting it fly forward several times to get it to start.

So - looks like the NSS or the Clifford alarm. Can anyone weigh in on the Ford alarm?

[Steve W.]

goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Jack Myers / Westminster, California, USA
>>
>> Always make new mistakes. --Esther Dyson
>
> That's a new one on me. I've only had to put my foot on the brake to
> shift out of Park. Regardless, I've tried every combination to try
> to force it to start - turn on/off hazard lights, windshield wipers,
> step on brake, move the shifter through all the gears a few times,
> blinkers, lights, interior lamps, on and on. That was how I
> discovered pulling back the shifter, and letting it fly forward
> several times to get it to start.
>
> So - looks like the NSS or the Clifford alarm. Can anyone weigh in
> on the Ford alarm?

Sounds like a bad starter switch. The Sable uses a switch bolted to the
column with a rod to activate it. Sounds like yours has a bad contact
internally or the start terminal isn't making good contact at the wire
connection.

--
Steve W.

[Paul in Houston TX]

Its been a while since I worked on a Ford/Merc T/S, but I seem to
recall the column mounted switch had slots that allowed
it to be adjusted 1/8 to 1/4".

[dsi1]

On 7/7/2013 7:36 AM, goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I don't believe its a Starter problem. Probably the NSS - but tell me more about the Security Lock system. Are you referring to the PATS?

They are the same thing. PATS is easier to spel.

>
> There was also a Clifford alarm installed before I bought it. Could that be it? I have no idea what the alarm did. The little 1/8" mono plug jack wore out to the point that I stopped activating it. Again, jumping the NSS connector starts the car. Not sure how the Clifford alarm is setup, but I think I'm going to try to yank that thing out.
>

It could be but my guess is that it's the starter because the problem
happens when the engine is hot. Maybe you could shoot the starter with a
garden hose to see if it solves the problem. I know, that's a whacky
idea. :-)

[Geoff Welsh]

dsi1 wrote:
> Again,
>> jumping the NSS connector starts the car.

then it's bad, or not installed/adjusted properly, or the connector is worn

GW

[gregz]

I would move the gearshift around holding the key on. I was doing that
trying to make backup light come on. Didn't work. This an olds, NSS varied
in price by about $200 . I bought the cheapest for $10 with shipping.
Darned if I know why it was so cheap, but worked fine.

Greg

[bob]

On 7/5/2013 6:01 PM, goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles
>

> Thanks for taking a look!
>
> RobN
>

Bad ignition switch (the actual electrical switch behind the mechanical
key one)

bad PATs or PATS issues (anti theft device)

Bad starter Give the starter a few hard wacks with a heavy object when
it wont start and see if it works then, If it does, replace it.

Dirty or corroded battery cables.

bob

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 7:19:49 AM UTC-7, Steve W. wrote:

>
> > blinkers, lights, interior lamps, on and on. That was how I
> > discovered pulling back the shifter, and letting it fly forward
> several times to get it to start.

> > So - looks like the NSS or the Clifford alarm. Can anyone weigh in
> > on the Ford alarm?

>
> Sounds like a bad starter switch. The Sable uses a switch bolted to the
> column with a rod to activate it. Sounds like yours has a bad contact
> internally or the start terminal isn't making good contact at the wire
> connection.
> --
>
> Steve W.

That bears investigating. Are you talking about the switch that the *very end* of the ignition switch cylinder fits into? Is that what you mean by ignition switch?

I'm due to pickup a new NSS (under warranty) today. But, now I'm having doubts about the NSS being bad. Yesterday, in the heat of the afternoon, I went out to start the car - wouldn't start. Perfect opportunity to exercise my "bad NSS" theory. Well, I jumpered the NSS connector - no start, no crank. Made no difference - I wiggled it, etc. Wouldn't start. Had to use my trick of pulling back on the column shift lever and let it fly several times before it started.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 6:11:17 AM UTC-7, bob wrote:
>
>
> Bad ignition switch (the actual electrical switch behind the mechanical
> key one)
>
> bad PATs or PATS issues (anti theft device)
>
> Bad starter Give the starter a few hard wacks with a heavy object when
>
> it wont start and see if it works then, If it does, replace it.
>
> Dirty or corroded battery cables.
>
> bob

Thanks for weighing in, Bob.
The Starter issue, I've debunked. I'm not getting power to the ignition wire to the middle post of the solenoid. And, cleaning the battery terminals was done early on in the process. All connections have been cleaned with contact cleaner, and a brush. Something is interfering with power to the *ignition* post on the solenoid. So, wacking on the starter is a non-issue.

Not sure how to troubleshoot, disable, the PATS.

Looks like the switch activated by the key cylinder is next.

[Steve W.]

The actual ignition switch is mounted on the steering column up under
the dash. Looks like this.
http://www.rockauto.com/info/Motorcraft/SW5011-ANG.jpg
I have seen a few with bad terminals on the connector block that would
cause no start.

One way to see if it is switch or rack would be to manually push the
switch while rotating the key. From your desc. it sounds like a bad
contact that shifts just enough to make connection and start.

Start colors on the switch are light green with a violet stripe and red
with a light blue stripe.


If you think it is the PATS there is an easy way to find out. Find the
starter relay terminal # 85. Run a jumper from that terminal to ground
and that bypasses the PATS system on the starting side. (term 85 is the
ground for the relay. with PATS the module provides the ground, without
it that terminal goes directly to ground 104.)


--
Steve W.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:20:51 AM UTC-7, Steve W. wrote:

> goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > it, etc. Wouldn't start. Had to use my trick of pulling back on the
>
> > column shift lever and let it fly several times before it started.


>
> The actual ignition switch is mounted on the steering column up under
>
> the dash. Looks like this.
>
> http://www.rockauto.com/info/Motorcraft/SW5011-ANG.jpg
> I have seen a few with bad terminals on the connector block that would
> cause no start.

> One way to see if it is switch or rack would be to manually push the
> switch while rotating the key. From your desc. it sounds like a bad
> contact that shifts just enough to make connection and start.

> Start colors on the switch are light green with a violet stripe and red
> with a light blue stripe.

> If you think it is the PATS there is an easy way to find out. Find the
> starter relay terminal # 85. Run a jumper from that terminal to ground
> and that bypasses the PATS system on the starting side. (term 85 is the
> ground for the relay. with PATS the module provides the ground, without
> it that terminal goes directly to ground 104.)

> Steve W.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the picture!

Ohhh - I thought you were talking about the piece of plastic that pushes down from the ignition key switch cylinder. Yes, actually, I've replaced that ignition switch block about two weeks ago. The original was clean, clean, but I had already tried it out, so I couldn't return it.

Thanks Steve. OK - I will take a look at the wires you've indicated and see what/where the wire ends look like. They're all tucked up in the loom, so my weekend will involve sharp instruments, it looks like. Ouch! ;o)

Appreciate the information on bypassing PATS. I know exactly where you are talking about. Will try to get to it before the weekend though, and report my findings.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 5, 2013 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings!

> Again - to summarize:
>
>
>
> Checked battery
>
> Starter (didn't go into detail, but checked the solenoid, and starter)
>
> Replaced Neutral Safety Switch
>
> Swapped relays in the Power Junction box (broken wire? how to check)
>
> Oh, and replaced the Ignition Switch Block
>
>
>
> I would like to bypass the NSS to see if that makes any difference. Anyone know what pin(holes) to jump to do that? Or how to find it out?
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking a look!
>
>
>
> RobN

Status Update - Yesterday, I replaced the NSS (under warranty from Schucks/O'Reilly's), and *yesterday*, I gave it the typical 5 min. after I'd run it hard in the hot sun. Got in, turned the key and it started right up. I need to test it a few more days before I sign off on it.

[goldenh...@gmail.com]

After 2 days of reliable starting, I couldn't start the car again.

On Saturday, 7/13/13, I cut out a Clifford alarm that was installed in the car before I bought it. It was an Immobilizer. Today, was the first full day that I've run the car w/o the alarm, and it hasn't failed. I believe the problem was the Immobilizer. The reason I didn't use it was that it had problems disarming. I don't know how long it was after the time that I stopped using it and the problem with it starting up began to occur. I would say a couple of years. I got the car in 2007, I believe. It took less than an hour to cut it out, and splice together the original wiring. I used quick splices. Again - so far - so good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. If I don't post in this group again, that will confirm that the Clifford Auto Immobilizer was the problem the whole time!!! AAAAAGGGHHH!

[gregz]

When i add a no start, I usually disable the fuel pump. Cranking generates
a lot of noise.

Greg

[chanma...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 5, 2013 at 5:01:08 PM UTC-6, goldenh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> 1999 Mercury Sable wagon - 168,000 miles
>

> Sometimes after running the car around town, I return to the car, only to not be able to start it. I turn the key, all dash lights are on - no crank, no start, nothing. I hear the fuel pump charge, but that's it. I've had this problem for a few years now, and have been living with it, but now its getting worse.
>

> Battery is good. Switched relays in the Power Junction Box - no difference. Replaced the neutral safety switch (transmission range sensor, etc.), but now I'm wondering if that NSS was bad? Tried starting in other gears (it actually has the same symptoms as trying to start in other gears). Starting in neutral is the same problem. Turn the key, and nothing. The NSS is tight, and like I said, will start fine, cold.

>
> Checked the red wire from the battery (thru the Power Junction box) to the solenoid's primary power post - no juice when the car is acting up.
>

> Seems if I let the car sit for 10 or 15 mins, it will start. I've heard people talk of an immobilizer, and the vehicle theft system, but I don't know the symptoms of those devices. Would they cause the engine *not* to crank?
>
> Often, to force a start, I will pull back on the spring-loaded gear shift lever (column shift), and release it while the key is turned to START position. I may have to do it 10 or even 20 times, but eventually it starts. I found this out by trial and error.

>
> Again - to summarize:
>
> Checked battery
> Starter (didn't go into detail, but checked the solenoid, and starter)
> Replaced Neutral Safety Switch
> Swapped relays in the Power Junction box (broken wire? how to check)
> Oh, and replaced the Ignition Switch Block
>
> I would like to bypass the NSS to see if that makes any difference. Anyone know what pin(holes) to jump to do that? Or how to find it out?
>
> Thanks for taking a look!
>
> RobN

wher