94 Acclaim - Cold Engine Problem...
Cloaked
All around, it has been pretty good. However, now that the weather has
cooled off, I am having the following problem:
First thing in the morning, cold out and engine dead cold, the engine
starts and idles just fine. However, when I attempt to drive off
(after a short warm up period) the engine hestiates and feels like it
is going to stall.
At first this would just happen for a short moment and go away. But as
it has gotten colder, the problem is now staying longer, even going so
far as to cause rough running for the first few minutes of operation.
By the time I have driven a few miles, all is well, engine runs fine,
no problem with idle or accelleration.
The problem first showed last spring, disappeared in the summer, and
has now returned with avengance.
Any ideas / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Robert Hancock
suspect..
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
"Cloaked" <Cloaked...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:3d7cedf4...@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
Daniel J. Stern
> I have a '94 Plymouth Acclaim with the 3.0 V6.
To check the computer codes:
With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
leaving it "ON". Do not
go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.
Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been stored.
For instance, if it flashes:
flash <pause> flash flash
<long pause>
flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
<long pause>
flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and a
55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
stored. Check the codes and report what you find.
DS
Cloaked
I read codes 38, and 37 (in that order).
I looked up code 37, but that does not make any sense to me (then
again that do I know). I did note that onw thread says there is no
code 38. How can that be?? I checked it twice, and that is EXACTLY
what I got.
All help still greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Daniel J. Stern
> Codes checked.
>
> I read codes 38, and 37 (in that order).
Check again. The first code you get should be 12, the last one 55. Pay
close attention. Each code contains two digits 1-9, and there is a SHORT
pause between digits. There is a longer pause between codes. Codes will
not necessarily be in ascending order, so you can have a higher code
number before a lower code number. But you'll almost always start with 12
(nominally "battery disconnected within last 50 starts", but means "start
of codes" when you're reading the codes through the Check Engine light)
and you WILL always end with 55 ("end of codes").
If I had to take a guess at your 38 and 37, I'd say what you interpreted
as the "3" in "38" is actually a 1 and a 2, for 12, start of codes.
Then you have your "8" from "38", which I suspect is really a 1 and a 7,
for "17", engine target temperature not reached within expected time,
which is a code directly related to your trouble.
Then your 3 and 7, I suspect, are really 5 and 5, for "55", end of codes.
17 points to a faulty thermostat and/or a faulty engine coolant
temperature sensor and/or faulty wiring between the engine coolant
temperature sensor and the computer. Fault probability is in that order,
thermostat first.
DS
Cloaked
In reading the codes, there was a single blink, then a LONG pause.
By the way, I am in Canada, and my car, I believe was made in Canada.
Does this make a difference to the codes???
I got the 38, then the 37, then 55. I did not mention the 55 because
all relevant postings indicated this was "normal" and ment "end of
codes".
There was definitly a 55 at the end which was completely separate from
the 37.
I was not, however, aware that a "12" code should always be first. May
I presume that this is "start of codes" then?
I will double check the readings this evening.
As for the engine not reaching temperature, I do not expect it to be
even close to temperature in the first minute of vehicle operation
from a dead cold start. My car always used to run just fine dead cold.
With respect to the thermostat, I would have no problem changing that.
I may just do it as a matter of course since it is both economical to
buy and simple to do. (A little PM never hurt! :)
The battle continues...
Daniel J. Stern
> In reading the codes, there was a single blink, then a LONG pause.
Right. The sequence after you turn the key on-off-on-off-ON and leave it
ON is that the Check Engine light will come on, then go off, THEN it will
begin to flash-out the codes.
> By the way, I am in Canada, and my car, I believe was made in Canada.
> Does this make a difference to the codes???
No.
> I got the 38, then the 37, then 55. I did not mention the 55 because
> all relevant postings indicated this was "normal" and ment "end of
> codes".
I still think you got 12-17-55.
> I was not, however, aware that a "12" code should always be first. May
> I presume that this is "start of codes" then?
Yup.
> As for the engine not reaching temperature, I do not expect it to be
> even close to temperature in the first minute of vehicle operation
> from a dead cold start. My car always used to run just fine dead cold.
Right, that's not what the code means. Remember, codes that are stored are
set until they're cleared. 17 means the engine didn't reach operating
temperature within the expected time frame, which means either the
thermostat is stuck open, the coolant temperature sensor is giving false
readings, or the computer can't properly see the sensor due to a wiring
problem. The codes do not appear and disappear in real time. The computer
doesn't expect the engine to be at operating temperature right on cold
startup either!
DS
Cloaked
OK, so I can't read! LOL!
Codes as Follows:
Single Flash - Pause - 12 - 17 - 37 - 55
So the 17 means that at some point since the codes were last cleared
(last fall I believe), that the computer thinks the engine did not
reach temperature during the expected time frame.
I have the full gauge package on the dash - although there are only
hash marks instead of even losely calibrated markings.
Is the "sending unit"/sensor for the dash gauge the same one the
computer is looking at??? If so, I know I have seen the temperature
gauge move as high as 3/4 of full scale in hot weather city driving.
If the computer is looking at the same information I am, then I would
seem to me that the sensor is likely OK, but that the thermostat is
shot.
However, it does not seem logical to me that the thermostat itself
would cause the hesitation when running cold. It does stand to reason
that a faulty sensor that provides false information to the computer
could cause the rough running.
Maybe I should just do'em both to eliminate them as a possible cause.
Whatdaythink??
Daniel J. Stern
> Single Flash - Pause - 12 - 17 - 37 - 55
Start of codes
Engine doesn't reach operating temp during expected time frame
Open or short circuit in torque converter lockup clutch solenoid circuit
End of codes
> Is the "sending unit"/sensor for the dash gauge the same one the
> computer is looking at?
No.
Did you say a 2.5 (4 cylinder) or a 3.0 (6 cylinder) engine in this car?
> However, it does not seem logical to me that the thermostat itself
> would cause the hesitation when running cold. It does stand to reason
> that a faulty sensor that provides false information to the computer
> could cause the rough running.
Both/either. And, y'know, don't forget that the two could be partially
unrelated. If your throttle body is dirty, if your cap and rotor are old,
if your spark plugs are worn, if your fuel filter is clogged, if your PCV
valve and PCV inlet air filter are clogged...do you keep up with regular
maintenance?
DS
Cloaked
<das...@engin.umich> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Cloaked wrote:
>
>> Single Flash - Pause - 12 - 17 - 37 - 55
>
>Start of codes
>Engine doesn't reach operating temp during expected time frame
>Open or short circuit in torque converter lockup clutch solenoid circuit
>End of codes
>
>> Is the "sending unit"/sensor for the dash gauge the same one the
>> computer is looking at?
>
>No.
>
>Did you say a 2.5 (4 cylinder) or a 3.0 (6 cylinder) engine in this car?
>
3.0 V6 :)
>> However, it does not seem logical to me that the thermostat itself
>> would cause the hesitation when running cold. It does stand to reason
>> that a faulty sensor that provides false information to the computer
>> could cause the rough running.
>
>Both/either. And, y'know, don't forget that the two could be partially
>unrelated. If your throttle body is dirty, if your cap and rotor are old,
>if your spark plugs are worn, if your fuel filter is clogged, if your PCV
>valve and PCV inlet air filter are clogged...do you keep up with regular
>maintenance?
>
>DS
>
Well I did not run across this car until last winter. It was my
understanding that it had a major tune-up in the summer/fall. I do
have the records for what was done, so I will check them for clues.
From what I have read, it sounds like it would be a good PM to clean
the throttle body anyways - just to be sure (along with the AIS motor
assembly?? is that correct for this model?)
CAP??? ROTOR???? No WAY! I thought all the computer controlled engines
of that vintage had electronicly controlled coil packs! Are you
serious??? I better have a look at those records! If I am at
170,000km+ on the original cap & rotor that would not be good.
Thanks
:)
Daniel J. Stern
> >> Single Flash - Pause - 12 - 17 - 37 - 55
> >
> >Start of codes
> >Engine doesn't reach operating temp during expected time frame
> >Open or short circuit in torque converter lockup clutch solenoid circuit
> >End of codes
> From what I have read, it sounds like it would be a good PM to clean
> the throttle body anyways
Yes. You can do so with a spray can of cleaner. My preference is for
Berryman's B12 ChemTool.
> CAP??? ROTOR???? No WAY!
Way. Spark plug wires, too.
DS (247,000KM on my '92)
Cloaked
Well the dirty dead is done (for now). now I just have to wait for a
cold morning next week to see if the problem is solved.
For reference:
The throttle body was DISGUSTING! I took it off to clean it. The stuff
I got from the supplier was "Gunk" brand. Says it was safe for carbs,
throttle bodies, O2 sensors, and catalytic converters. It seemed to do
a great job! :)
As per another post I found on Google, I removed the "AIC" to clean
it. I am sure glad I did! This thing was clogged with sticky gooey
black crap!. When I cleaned it all, there was a shinney (brass?)
surface that fitted into what (after cleaning) appeared to be a
precision machined seat in the throttle body! :))))
I also replaced the thermostat. Since I have a Temp gauge, I watched
when I started the car and let it run, Surprize! "Normally" it takes a
LONG time for the gauge to come up, and when it does it rarely gets
more than half way to the "1/4" mark (first small hash mark on the
left). NOW, it came up the just over the "1/4" mark in less than 5
minutes! :))))
I guess that explains the "17" code!
I wanted to take the plenum off because the inside looked pretty bad
too, but this looked to be a little more involved for the tools I
happen to have at the moment (and the time as well!). So I just
cleaned what I could see as best as I could. (ANYTHING has got to be
better than the shape it was in!).
And the good thing is, when I put it all back togehter I did NOT have
any spare parts, AND it runs! :)))))))
I also checked the records. The last tune-up (less than a year ago)
had the following done:
New Spark Plugs
New Plug Wires (7mm)
New Distributor Cap
New Rotor
New Air Intake Filter
New PCV Valve
Looking GOOD! :)))
Well that is all for now!
Cloaked
All is well.
Thanks for the help DS!
On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:18:59 GMT, Cloaked...@yahoo.ca (Cloaked)
wrote:
Daniel J. Stern
> Well, one week later, and a couple of fairly cold mornings...
>
> All is well.
>
> Thanks for the help DS!
Glad it's working well for you.
DS