Saturn quality is a gimmick
Valery Polyakov; (ISD)
Hi,
I'd like to offer an alternative opinion about Saturn cars. I am a
Saturn owner, not one of those proud ones. My '96 SL with less than 4K
mi on it is just about to meet requirements of the lemon law. I've had
quite an experience with this car in 6 months of ownership. I can tell
the full story if anyone is interested, but for now will just give one
episode. Last time the car was in the shop for 3 (three!) weeks, during
which I never got one call from the service dept. Finally, yesterday I
picked up the car and... today had to take it back with most of the same
problems and some new ones.
I now strongly believe that Saturns claims of commitment to quality and
customer satisfaction are nothing but brain-washing. If you don't own a
Saturn yet, don't!
Valery Polyakov
John Glowacki
Make sure you do fit the lemmon law. In Wisconsin it's;
1. Loss of 30 days service in firsxt year.
2. Same problem 4 times/unfixed in first year.
I think?
I came so so close on my 94 sl2, I could smell it. I have regretted not
making it ever sinse. Now I have to live with the grief.
Would be nice if you could just list all of your problems. It gets kind
of boreing when people write long sa's about their headaches, but a nice
list makes a good point.
Saturn gave us a free 6/60 zero deductable extended warrantee after our
ordeal.
Eugene F. Buzzone
In article <4q7266$t...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
John Glowacki <jdgl...@facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:
>Make sure you do fit the lemmon law. In Wisconsin it's;
>1. Loss of 30 days service in firsxt year.
>2. Same problem 4 times/unfixed in first year.
>
>I think?
I woud strongly recommend writing a letter to the president of
Saturn. When I had a problem with a '93 SL2, I did that. Very good
results.
Gregory K. Sloat
> of boreing when people write long sa's about their headaches, but a nice
> list makes a good point.
A point well made. I've been meaning to make such a list so I could send
it to Spring Hill (and they're really annoyances as opposed to major
problems, but then when you spend the money on your first new car, it
better be perfect, or made to be, by the service dept.)
As soon as I have the list, I'll post it (gotta tally up the items and
take the time to write them all down <G>).
-Greg
David A. Boyce
In article <31C6F7...@sdr.slb.com>, poly...@sdr.slb.com says...
Sorry about your experience. My 93 Saturn SL2, with 52k, has been a
dream. Perhaps it was your dealership. At any rate, I know you can get
satisfaction if you contact the Saturn arbitrator in your owners manual.
It is time consuming, but you'll get satisfaction. I would alos
contact Spring Hill and let them know your problem. I feel Saturns are
great. I've always received fantastic customer service and problem
resolution. Good Luck.
dab...@acsworld.net
Frank Yang
In article <31C6F7...@sdr.slb.com>, poly...@sdr.slb.com says...
>
>Hi,
>
>I'd like to offer an alternative opinion about Saturn cars. I am a
>Saturn owner, not one of those proud ones. My '96 SL with less than 4K
>mi on it is just about to meet requirements of the lemon law. I've had
>quite an experience with this car in 6 months of ownership. I can tell
>the full story if anyone is interested, but for now will just give one
>episode. Last time the car was in the shop for 3 (three!) weeks, during
>which I never got one call from the service dept. Finally, yesterday I
>picked up the car and... today had to take it back with most of the same
>problems and some new ones.
>
>I now strongly believe that Saturns claims of commitment to quality and
>customer satisfaction are nothing but brain-washing. If you don't own a
>Saturn yet, don't!
>
>
>Valery Polyakov
Valery:
Sorry to hear your story. Saturn's quality is already America's best.
Overall it is a great make, but every once a while a lemon comes right out of
the factory. Even quality makes like Lexus and Infinite have lemons.
By being in this conference for quite sometime, it seems to me that the
Saturn cars out there either have no problem or tons of problems, rarely
somewhere in between. Those Saturn lemons usually end up in a used car lot.
You should ask Saturn to give you another one. Hope all go well.
- Frank
Vince Giambalvo
>I now strongly believe that Saturns claims of commitment to quality and
>customer satisfaction are nothing but brain-washing. If you don't own a
>Saturn yet, don't!
>
>
>Valery Polyakov
Valery:
You should ask Saturn to give you another one. Hope all go well.
- Frank
Definitely. But you might try to change dealers as well. A friend was
very happy with his saturn, until a job move caused him to switch
dealers for service. Many things have gone wrong since then. Some
(leaky rear window) can hardly be attributed to the dealer, but
others, as well as the quality of the repair can be.
Vince
Joseph A. Giaime
As I recall, most better-than-average quality cars, such as Saturn and
the Japanese lines, have something like 80 - 120 *initial* defects per
100 cars. This means that most buyers have something wrong (easily
fixed, usually) with their cars, some have perfect cars, and some
folks get defect-ridden screwups. And this is the better-than-average
car lines! This doesn't excuse the car companies from taking
responsibility, of course. Just remember the quality state of the art
leaves something to be desired... leading the various states to pass
lemon laws.
-Joe
In article <31C6F7...@sdr.slb.com> "Valery Polyakov; (ISD)"
<poly...@sdr.slb.com> writes:
Hi,
I'd like to offer an alternative opinion about Saturn cars. I am a
Saturn owner, not one of those proud ones. My '96 SL with less than
4K mi on it is just about to meet requirements of the lemon
law. I've had quite an experience with this car in 6 months of
ownership. I can tell the full story if anyone is interested, but
for now will just give one episode. Last time the car was in the
shop for 3 (three!) weeks, during which I never got one call from
the service dept. Finally, yesterday I picked up the car
and... today had to take it back with most of the same problems and
some new ones.
I now strongly believe that Saturns claims of commitment to quality
and customer satisfaction are nothing but brain-washing. If you
don't own a Saturn yet, don't!
Valery Polyakov
--
Keith E. Loyd
You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
cars in the world.
It reminds me of the old Spanish proverb - If you can't fight well, wear
a big hat.
Frank Yang
--
I beg to differ: Saturn Corp. never bragged about the quality and customer
satisfaction in their commercial.
Acura, Lexus, and Infinite all bragged about their JD Power quality
and customer satisfaction survey results. Saturn never did. Saturn is the
real "quiet" company.
- Frank
----------------------------------------------------------
Frank Yang - Systems Engineer - Branch #55 - New York City
CompuCom - 10100 Central Expressway - Dallas, Texas
Chris Mauritz
Keith E. Loyd (KEL...@mail.myriad.net) wrote:
: An observation for anyone passing through this thread:
:
: You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
: bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
: cars in the world.
You're right, sort of. Many Americans think that American auto
manufacturers cannot produce a reliable car. According to JD Power's
surveys, Saturn has turned this around. Why shouldn't they point
this out?
Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
Kenneth Willis
Keith:
I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
K.W.
CA.
Kenneth Willis
Frank:
Damn good reply!
Ken W.
Calif.
Chris Mauritz
Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Keith:
To be honest, I don't care about these issues. Whoever makes the best
cars, ought to get the sales. If American cars can't compete, they
shouldn't be selling them. However, it is clear from the various
customer surveys that Saturn makes a product of high quality. And
show me another company that gives you 30 days to return the car
(for any reason) within 30 days.
Charles
In <Dttyy...@ritz.mordor.com> ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz)
writes:
>Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Keith:
>:
>: I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our
trade
>: deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help
Americans
>: maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan.
I do
>: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best
cars
>: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet others
with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
mandates.
Let's do lunch in Bataan!
BANSAI!
Whoever makes the best
>cars, ought to get the sales. If American cars can't compete, they
>shouldn't be selling them. However, it is clear from the various
>customer surveys that Saturn makes a product of high quality. And
>show me another company that gives you 30 days to return the car
>(for any reason) within 30 days.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Chris
>
>--
>Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
>ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
>Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
>201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
--
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
BMW . . . THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'"
-- "Glengarry Glen Ross"
Michael Zarlenga
:: I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our
:: trade deficit, make it possible for you to get social security,
:: help Americans maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other
:: than help Japan.
Everytime Japan sells the American consumer a high-quality, low-cost
product it helps that consumer. Everytime Japan offers a high-quality,
low-cost car for sale in America, it helps (some would say forces)
American car manufacturers to offer more quality at lower cost. That
serves to help the company, long-term.
American car manufacturers do not
a) make it possible for me (or anyone else) to get Social Security
b) help American maintain their jobs (if anything, being uncompeti-
tive only delays and worsens the job losses that the industry
must eventually face).
And with regard to the trade deficit? So what?
Why do you think a trade deficit with any country is anything to
worry about?
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
I'm a PETA lifetime member : People Eating Tasty Animals.
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP Public key and killfile
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best
: cars
: >: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
:
: >To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet others
: with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
: those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
: mandates.
: Let's do lunch in Bataan!
: BANSAI!
And for those of us who believe in Black Helicopters and the such, the
Subaru Isuzu Automotive plant in Lafayette, Indiana, is located right
off State Road 37, also known as Bataan Memorial Highway...
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos Kokomo, IN 46902 (317) 451-0815 (8-322)
Corporate Software Technology Email: c2...@eng.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics Corporation URL: http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~strianta/
Charles
In <4r7ck3$e...@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> c2...@eng.delcoelect.com
(Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>
>Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds
best
>: cars
>: >: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>:
>: >To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet others
>: with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
>: those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
>: mandates.
>: Let's do lunch in Bataan!
>: BANSAI!
>
>And for those of us who believe in Black Helicopters and the such, the
>Subaru Isuzu Automotive plant in Lafayette, Indiana, is located right
>off State Road 37, also known as Bataan Memorial Highway...
Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Are you serious?
Spiro, got any ouzo left? If that's true I'll need a drop, if ya
don't mind. I just ran outta some good Italian wine. ;-)
>Spiros
>--
>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos Kokomo, IN 46902 (317) 451-0815
(8-322)
>Corporate Software Technology Email: c2...@eng.delcoelect.com
>Delco Electronics Corporation URL:
http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~strianta/
--
Stephen and Ann Blair
: I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
: deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
: maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
: K.W.
: CA.
I sense a bit of bitterness here. Sheesh.
I have family members that wouldn't buy a Japanese car if it was the only
car on the market, but that's not clouded my judgement. Everyone who
reads this group knows that I'm a big fan of Saturn, but what you just
said is quite unfair. Two examples:
The Honda Civic is a domestic car this year. We're EXPORTING Civics to
Japan this year.
The 1998 Honda Accord for Japan will be built and designed in Japan. The
1998 Honda Accord for the American market will be designed and built in
the U.S., and will be completely different than the Japanese version.
I don't know much about other Japanese automotive companies, but I know
that this kind of thing is becoming more common daily. You could argue
that it's cheaper for them to do the work here, so it's saving a Japanese
company money, and it's not at all because it helps the U.S. - So what?
They're employing thousands of Americans. Jobs, people. People, jobs.
Paul.
--
Stephen (Paul) and Ann Blair "The source of all good is trust in
Milwaukie, Oregon USA God, submission unto His command
1-503-653-5901 and contentment in His holy will
e-mail: bl...@teleport.com and pleasure." - Baha'u'llah.
Richard Johnson
On 30 Jun 1996 17:29:51 GMT, Kenneth Willis <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Keith:
>
>I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
>deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
>maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
>not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
>and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>
>K.W.
>CA.
>
Yea the Japanese have been just a bunch of bastards and I'd prefer to
buy an American car if I can find one that's good enough, and I think
Saturn is. Japanese cars used to be cheaper than American cars but
that's long over.
Kenneth Willis
Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on it.
The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the day I
bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is leather and
after five years it doesn't even show a crack. The car doesn't creek or
make any kind of noise - it is tight! My Mark is good enough now to
drive coast to coast without a second thought. The only thing I have
ever had to replace on the car is tires, break pads and fuel filters. I
haven't seen a Japanese made product with as much mileage or age that can
do any better.
What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
good!
colleen condron
>In <4r7ck3$e...@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> c2...@eng.delcoelect.com
>(Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>
>>Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: >: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds
>best
>>: cars
>>: >: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>>:
>>: >To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
>>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>: Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet others
>>: with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
>>: those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
>>: mandates.
>>: Let's do lunch in Bataan!
>>: BANSAI!
>>
>>And for those of us who believe in Black Helicopters and the such, the
>>Subaru Isuzu Automotive plant in Lafayette, Indiana, is located right
>>off State Road 37, also known as Bataan Memorial Highway...
> Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Are you serious?
> Spiro, got any ouzo left? If that's true I'll need a drop, if ya
>don't mind. I just ran outta some good Italian wine. ;-)
He is, he is...having recently moved from Lafayette, I recall hearing stories
about the lovely open minded people there writing letters to the editor about
the plant, complaining about "The Japs" (their words, NOT mine) and how we
shouldn't build their cars in our country. Hmmm...just who is working
there...certainly not a bunch of Japanese people...how about a bunch of people
from Lafayette and surrounding communities? Then the cars are sold at
American dealerships, serviced by American service people, and gas is
purchased at American gas stations. Not to mention the huge auto excise taxes
on new cars in the state of Indiana. I never understand that "buy American"
argument...the cars are sold, serviced and driven in the US...this supports
the US economy......
Chris Mauritz
Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <Dttyy...@ritz.mordor.com> ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz)
: writes:
: >
: >Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >: Keith:
: >:
: >: I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our
: trade
: >: deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help
: Americans
: >: maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan.
: I do
: cars
: >: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
:
: >To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet others
: with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
: those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
: mandates.
: Let's do lunch in Bataan!
: BANSAI!
If you want to be a narrowminded and obviously racist person, that's
your business. If American car companies can't compete, they shouldn't
be in business.
craig mason
Chris Mauritz wrote:
>
> Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Keith:
> :
> : I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
> : deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
> : maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
> : not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
> : and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>
> cars, ought to get the sales. If American cars can't compete, they
> shouldn't be selling them. However, it is clear from the various
> customer surveys that Saturn makes a product of high quality. And
> show me another company that gives you 30 days to return the car
> (for any reason) within 30 days.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> --
> Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
> ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
> Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
better built, have fewer problems and hold there value more than any
american car including those ugly looking saturns and about keeping jobs
about 80% or more of japenese cars are built in canada and the u.s.a. by
americans and canadians unlike general motors who is currently making
there cars down in mexico eg. cavalier. I bet you that nissan, toyota
and honda employ more americans and canadians than the shitty american
automackers
craig mason
nissan sentra with 180 000 kilometers and thats all I have had to do
and it only cost me 12 000 dollars canadian and your car is probably
only worth about 39% of what you paid and mine is still worth about 57%
because japanese cars hold there value unlike american made cars
Gary J. Paulette
Kenneth Willis wrote:
>
> Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on it.
> The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the day I
> bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
> transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is leather and
> after five years it doesn't even show a crack. The car doesn't
>The thing-the thing-the thing...
> haven't seen a Japanese made product with as much mileage or age that can
> do any better.
> What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
> isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
> good!
GM trash bucket (96 Saturn SL2). It had 138,000 thousand on it.
Turbo still worked (with "ALL" autos change oil every 2.5K).
The seat just started to show wear (Saturn's wore out at 3K)
Brakes were still factory (Pads still OE)
Come on..... Tell me more about your FOMOCO?????
Jeeze...
Your Real Name
In article <31c81...@newsmail.acsworld.net>, dab...@acsworld.net (David
A. Boyce) wrote:
> In article <31C6F7...@sdr.slb.com>, poly...@sdr.slb.com says...
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >I'd like to offer an alternative opinion about Saturn cars. I am a
> >Saturn owner, not one of those proud ones. My '96 SL with less than 4K
> >mi on it is just about to meet requirements of the lemon law. I've had
> >quite an experience with this car in 6 months of ownership. I can tell
> >the full story if anyone is interested, but for now will just give one
> >episode. Last time the car was in the shop for 3 (three!) weeks, during
> >which I never got one call from the service dept. Finally, yesterday I
> >picked up the car and... today had to take it back with most of the
> same
> >problems and some new ones.
> >
> >I now strongly believe that Saturns claims of commitment to quality and
> >customer satisfaction are nothing but brain-washing. If you don't own a
> >Saturn yet, don't!
> >you are correct sir. the entire saturn concept is a joke. some sub
assemblies are now built in other GM plants. they think that trying to be
your best friend via promoting a national network of owners and having
picnics for owners will replace their lack of ability to build a good car.
I test
drove a new 94 and the engine was so loud i couldn't hear the radio.
my advise - dump the saturn and buy a honda.
Robert Dillmeier
In <31D7E0...@wgbh.org> "Gary J. Paulette" <Gary_P...@wgbh.org>
writes:
Oh please. Saturn is just more GM crap. Wait until the paint peels off
your Saturn because someone at GM decided to buy bad paint since
1984....
Chris Mauritz
craig mason (cma...@inforamp.net) wrote:
1. Get an education.
2. Saturn has been in the top 3 in the JD Power owner satisfaction
surveys for at least the last 3 years. Number one and number
two were Lexus and Infiniti. That puts Saturn ahead of all the
other Japanese manufacturers (of course, Lexus is made by Toyota
and Infiniti by Nissan, but those cars are a LOT more pricey than
the Saturn...which is made by GM) and all the other American
automakers.
3. If you'll check the Edmunds web site, you'll note that Saturn has
one of the highest resale values of ANY car (if not THE highest)
in its class.
4. Saturn vehicles have 97% US content (higher than any other American
car) and are produced in Tennessee.
Have a nice day,
Paul W. Henne
craig mason wrote:
> are you a complete idiot what did you pay for that car I have a 1991
> nissan sentra with 180 000 kilometers and thats all I have had to do
> and it only cost me 12 000 dollars canadian and your car is probably
> only worth about 39% of what you paid and mine is still worth about 57%
> because japanese cars hold there value unlike american made cars
And then we have Saturns. A quick check of Edmund's, and the WORST
resale value I could find for a Saturn was **60%** for a 1991 SL sedan,
based on wholesale prices. A 1991 SL2 still holds 68%, 1992 SL2 holds
75%!!
Paul
--
------------- Paul W. Henne <p...@clark.net> --------------
"Good judgement comes from experience; and experience, well,
that comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous
------------------------------------------------------------
Gary J. Paulette
The 96 Saturn's , for the most part are junk... It seems that my
specific auto was rushed through the line, and they obviously
decided to deal with all the problems later?
When I paid for this car in full, they didn't have to wait till later!
GM, and all the nice Saturn types that put these puppies together,
well, at this point can kiss my crack!!! As soon as this thing gets
"all" the work that it needs, it's trade in for a Acura Integra!!
Give us a kiss GM!!! Bite me saturnites!!!
US CARS STILL SUCK THE BIG WAZOO!!!
Kim Naru (Contractor)
Keith E. Loyd (KEL...@mail.myriad.net) wrote:
: An observation for anyone passing through this thread:
: You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
: bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
: cars in the world.
My Nissan sentra had 2 seat belt recalls. My friends Acura
Integera had MAJOR transmission problems, which the dealership
fixed for free without mentioning the inherent flaw.
All along I thought "Wow, this is called service, no wonder the
Japenese are so difficult to beat", that was until my
friend did some resarch and found out the tranmission problem
was a known flaw which the company wasn't willing to admit to.
The Japanese don't also publicize their recalls and make
a good product.
: It reminds me of the old Spanish proverb - If you can't fight well, wear
: a big hat.
And what would the Japanese approach be called?
--kim
Monil Shah
Kim Naru (Contractor) wrote:
>
> Keith E. Loyd (KEL...@mail.myriad.net) wrote:
> : An observation for anyone passing through this thread:
>
> : You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
> : bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
> : cars in the world.
>
> My Nissan sentra had 2 seat belt recalls. My friends Acura
> Integera had MAJOR transmission problems, which the dealership
> fixed for free without mentioning the inherent flaw.
> All along I thought "Wow, this is called service, no wonder the
> Japenese are so difficult to beat", that was until my
> friend did some resarch and found out the tranmission problem
> was a known flaw which the company wasn't willing to admit to.
>
> The Japanese don't also publicize their recalls and make
> a good product.
>
on one acura car that has transmission problems and a Nissan Sentra. If
you notice the reliablity rate, acura,lexus,infiniti,nissan,toyota, etc.
all are expectionally reliable cars. There will always be a
percentage of cars in every company that are bad. If you complain about
Acura or Nissan, then how about Chrysler not wanting to replace the
latches on the minivan or the seat belt bolts on the stratus. Then
there is Ford with the transmission problem in the taruses and GM with
their paint problem. The list can go on and on.
XMAN
j...@intplsrv.net wrote:
> least I am supporting AMERICANS.
Classic redneck crapola.
Frank Yang
In article <31D829...@clark.net>, p...@clark.net says...
>
>craig mason wrote:
>> are you a complete idiot what did you pay for that car I have a 1991
>> nissan sentra with 180 000 kilometers and thats all I have had to do
>> and it only cost me 12 000 dollars canadian and your car is probably
>> only worth about 39% of what you paid and mine is still worth about 57%
>> because japanese cars hold there value unlike american made cars
>
>And then we have Saturns. A quick check of Edmund's, and the WORST
>resale value I could find for a Saturn was **60%** for a 1991 SL sedan,
>based on wholesale prices. A 1991 SL2 still holds 68%, 1992 SL2 holds
>75%!!
>
>Paul
>--
I just checked the Edmund's web site and did a calculation on my '95 SL1 with
all options and mileage considered - I still have 90.8% of the original
value!!!
Not that I want to sell it (no way!), but it's nice to know that my Saturn is
worth that much on my personal net worth statement.
- Frank
--
j...@intplsrv.net
Charles
In <4r7qhh$c...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Kenneth Willis
<kwwi...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on it.
>The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the day
I
>bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
>transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is leather
and
or
>make any kind of noise - it is tight! My Mark is good enough now to
>drive coast to coast without a second thought. The only thing I have
>ever had to replace on the car is tires, break pads and fuel filters.
I
can
>do any better.
>
>What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
>isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
>good!
I've always wondered why "Consumer Reports" gave such glowing reviews
of Japanese cars.
IMO, one must ask, "WHO ARE the people who do the test drives? Who
write the reviews? Might they have a "hidden agenda"?
For example, from my own reading of CR through the years, they've
traditionally been very negative towards Volkswagen products. The
brutal pan they gave VW's "Eurovan" when it hit the market even
surprised me, who have come to expect less-than-favorable reviews of VW
products from the magazine. As it is, I think the "Eurovan" was pulled
off the market by VW almost as soon as it hit the market; whether that
CR pan was a big reason for this, who knows?
(Anecdote: years ago I read the CR review of the 1980's-era VW
Vanagon [essentially the first true "minivan," if one doesn't include
the VW Bus] and recall that it claimed the a/c was pretty
poor-performing.
(Wouldn't ya know it: a few years later I was a passenger in a VW
Vanagon from the same era reviewed in CR and the a/c was EXCELLENT! I
mentoned CR's negative comments and the owner/driver, shall I say, was
"less than impressed" with CR's competence in judging automotive
quality.)
CR's criteria were always rather questionable *if* they didn't take
into account the VASTLY-increased physical dangers involved in merely
getting behind the wheel of a small car (even today, the Japanese cars
largely fall into Consumer Union's "compact" and "small" categories.)
The sheetmetal of Japanese cars: since the 1970s, has it been of
greater, lesser or equal gauge than that of American cars?
One thing American cars have going for them, IMO, is increased
safety. It wasn't the Japanese cars that broke any ground in automotive
safety, that's for sure. Air bags, side-impact reinforcement, etc. --
all introduced by the Americans or the Europeans.
Charles
In <condron.3....@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
cond...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (colleen condron) writes:
>
>In article <4r7nek$2...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
joe...@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:
>
>>In <4r7ck3$e...@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> c2...@eng.delcoelect.com
>>(Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>>
>>>Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>best
>>>: cars
>>>: >: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>>>:
>>>: >To be honest, I don't care about these issues.
>>>: Don't worry, you're not alone! You'll have a chance to meet
others
>>>: with the same attitude in the future when you'r required to attend
>>>: those Japanese-language and bowing-protocol classes your employer
>>>: mandates.
>>>: Let's do lunch in Bataan!
>>>: BANSAI!
>>>
Very shortsighted. Just as the Japanese like it -- all the while as
THEY literally write business plans based on where they want their
companies to be market-wise 100 years from now.
Chris Mauritz
Monil Shah (ms...@mail.uoknor.edu) wrote:
I agree. If you pick any one vehicle, you can wind up with a lemon.
That's why I like to look at things like the JD Power surveys of new
car owners. You get a much larger distribution of vehicles (some
are bound to be lemons from a statistical standpoint) and you wind
up with a more even measure of the overall quality of the car.
Don't take my word for it. Do the research. Saturn has been right
up there with Lexus and Infiniti for the past several years. If I'm
not mistaken, it's been Lexus/Infiniti in the 1/2 spot and Saturn in
third each time.
Chris Mauritz
j...@intplsrv.net wrote:
: "Gary J. Paulette" <Gary_P...@wgbh.org> wrote:
:
: >Robert Dillmeier wrote:
: >>
: >> In <31D7E0...@wgbh.org> "Gary J. Paulette" <Gary_P...@wgbh.org>
: >> writes:
: >> >
: >> >Kenneth Willis wrote:
: >> >> Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on
: >> it.
: >> >> The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the
: >> day I
: >> >> bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
: >> >> transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is
: >> leather and
: >> >> after five years it doesn't even show a crack. The car doesn't
: >> >>The thing-the thing-the thing...
: >> >> haven't seen a Japanese made product with as much mileage or age
: >> that can
: >> >> do any better.
: >> >> What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
: >> >> isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
: >> >> good!
: >> >GM trash bucket (96 Saturn SL2). It had 138,000 thousand on it.
: >> >Turbo still worked (with "ALL" autos change oil every 2.5K).
: >> >The seat just started to show wear (Saturn's wore out at 3K)
: >> >Brakes were still factory (Pads still OE)
: >> >Come on..... Tell me more about your FOMOCO?????
: >> >Jeeze...
: >>
: >> Oh please. Saturn is just more GM crap. Wait until the paint peels off
: >> your Saturn because someone at GM decided to buy bad paint since
: >> 1984....
: >Hey Robert, that's the point I was trying to make to Mr. Willis
:
: >The 96 Saturn's , for the most part are junk... It seems that my
: >specific auto was rushed through the line, and they obviously
: >decided to deal with all the problems later?
: >When I paid for this car in full, they didn't have to wait till later!
: >GM, and all the nice Saturn types that put these puppies together,
: >well, at this point can kiss my crack!!! As soon as this thing gets
: >"all" the work that it needs, it's trade in for a Acura Integra!!
: >Give us a kiss GM!!! Bite me saturnites!!!
: >US CARS STILL SUCK THE BIG WAZOO!!!
:
: Go ahead buy that jap crap. I'll continue driving my american cars. At
: least I am supporting AMERICANS.
You're doing it for the wrong reason. Saturn vehicles (based on every
objective survey I've seen) stand on their own merits. I bought mine
because it met my needs first, and as an afterthought I figured it would
help keep jobs in the US.
Wetnursing uncompetitive US companies isn't gonna help. Patronizing
those that *can* compete will help.
Chris Mauritz
Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <4r7qhh$c...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Kenneth Willis
: <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
: >
: >Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on it.
:
: >The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the day
: I
: >bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
: >transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is leather
: and
: or
: >make any kind of noise - it is tight! My Mark is good enough now to
: >drive coast to coast without a second thought. The only thing I have
: >ever had to replace on the car is tires, break pads and fuel filters.
: I
: can
: >do any better.
: >
: >What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
: >isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
: >good!
:
: of Japanese cars.
: IMO, one must ask, "WHO ARE the people who do the test drives? Who
: write the reviews? Might they have a "hidden agenda"?
[lots deleted]
Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
(a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
"ringer" from the manufacturer.
(b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
others of that genre don't take that into account?
So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
of mainstream car rags.
Ron_Steve
In article <Dtwp0...@ritz.mordor.com> ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) writes:
>
>I agree. If you pick any one vehicle, you can wind up with a lemon.
>That's why I like to look at things like the JD Power surveys of new
>car owners. You get a much larger distribution of vehicles (some
>are bound to be lemons from a statistical standpoint) and you wind
>up with a more even measure of the overall quality of the car.
>
records in Consumer Reports. But those are always going to be skewed one
way or another just because they are surveys. Still not as bad as using a
single data point, though.
>Don't take my word for it. Do the research. Saturn has been right
>up there with Lexus and Infiniti for the past several years. If I'm
>not mistaken, it's been Lexus/Infiniti in the 1/2 spot and Saturn in
>third each time.
>
I've seen the numbers, but let me play devil's advocate here... Those are
*initial* satisfaction numbers, which reflect how good the car is in the
short while after you leave the lot, as well as the sales experience and how
the dealer takes care of any early problems that crop up. You'll note that
Lexus/Infiniti/Acura/Saturn are all known for customer-service-oriented
dealers. However, if you look at JD Power's 5-year satisfaction numbers (only
recently meaningful now that the '91 Saturns are 5 years old), you'll see that
Volvo and the usual Japanese makes rise to the top, while Saturn is about
midpack, still above the rest of GM and Chrysler, but I'm not sure if they
came in ahead of Ford. If I recall correctly, these numbers appeared in
AutoWeek a few months ago.
I'm not going to try to bash Saturn or pump up the Japanese makes based on
these numbers, but make value judgements as you will. But if I had the money
right now, I'd sooner invest it in a 5-year old Honda than a 5-year old Saturn.
Now let's hope that doesn't kill my resale value when my '94 SL2 is 4 or 5. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Steve "You hear people talk, well, he's 44, so he's lookin' to
#24 #3 slow down. Well they can kiss my butt. I'm having a damn
AB28 good time, and I'm just gettin' good at this."
-Dale Earnhardt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John P. Curcio
In article <Dtwst...@ritz.mordor.com>, ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) writes:
|> Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
|> [lots deleted]
[ditto....]
|> Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
|>
|> (a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
|> "ringer" from the manufacturer.
This is a good thing. However, if they get a lemon, they will base their
testing on a lemon.
|> (b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
|> not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
|> budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
|> others of that genre don't take that into account?
No, but that doesn't mean that C/D or the others can't be impartial. They
have a different focus; that of the automobile enthusiast. I strongly
disagree with a lot of their testing procedures; for instance, when testing
pickup trucks, they complained about the inability to put a child seat in
one! They tend to stress "safety" in the form of the damage caused to 5
mph bumpers.
|> So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
|> least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
|> of mainstream car rags.
Impartiality doesn't mean squat if they are just dead wrong.
-JPC
--
=============================================================================
John P. Curcio j...@philabs.philips.com Philips Labs Briarcliff Manor, NY
"The only thing the Democrats have to offer is fear itself"
"No goats, no boats, no motorcars, not a single 'yes-siree!'" -BH
Gary J. Paulette
j...@intplsrv.net wrote:
>
> "Gary J. Paulette" <Gary_P...@wgbh.org> wrote:
>
> >Robert Dillmeier wrote:
> >>
> >> In <31D7E0...@wgbh.org> "Gary J. Paulette" <Gary_P...@wgbh.org>
> >> writes:
> >> >
> >> >Kenneth Willis wrote:
> >> >>
> >> it.
> >> >> The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the
> >> day I
> >> >> bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
> >> >> transmission is as tight as ever. The interior of the car is
> >> leather and
> >> >> after five years it doesn't even show a crack. The car doesn't
> >> >>The thing-the thing-the thing...
> >> that can
> >> >> do any better.
> >> >> What I drive and use is all the proof I need to know that Japanese
> >> >> isn't the best deal. If U.S. isn't best, it sure as hell is just as
> >> >> good!
> >> >GM trash bucket (96 Saturn SL2). It had 138,000 thousand on it.
> >> >Turbo still worked (with "ALL" autos change oil every 2.5K).
> >> >The seat just started to show wear (Saturn's wore out at 3K)
> >> >Brakes were still factory (Pads still OE)
> >> >Come on..... Tell me more about your FOMOCO?????
> >> >Jeeze...
> >>
> >> Oh please. Saturn is just more GM crap. Wait until the paint peels off
> >> your Saturn because someone at GM decided to buy bad paint since
> >> 1984....
> >Hey Robert, that's the point I was trying to make to Mr. Willis
>
> >The 96 Saturn's , for the most part are junk... It seems that my
> >specific auto was rushed through the line, and they obviously
> >decided to deal with all the problems later?
> >When I paid for this car in full, they didn't have to wait till later!
> >GM, and all the nice Saturn types that put these puppies together,
> >well, at this point can kiss my crack!!! As soon as this thing gets
> >"all" the work that it needs, it's trade in for a Acura Integra!!
> >Give us a kiss GM!!! Bite me saturnites!!!
> >US CARS STILL SUCK THE BIG WAZOO!!!
>
> Go ahead buy that jap crap. I'll continue driving my american cars. At
> least I am supporting AMERICANS.
Hey! AMERICAN CAR LOVER.... Iv'e owned Fords, BMW's, Datsun, Honda's
Mitsu's, and now Saturn (read GM) I've got a hint for you clueless
boy!!! GM owns a chunk of Toyota, and Izzie's. Ford has Mazda,
and that Korean car that wants to aspire.... Dodge guys just let
go of Mitsu. So check under your hood Clueless boy, you'll find a
lot of Jap crap there!!!! And start using the correct term you
biggot.... Pacific rim.....
The only US auto that I still respect is FOMOCO, but there not US
they are from the Great White North, or Mexico.....
cya....
Gary J.
Gary J. Paulette
We are losing perspective here folks!!!
I started quoting other's and still some of you think I originated
alot of this crap... Well see how many post are actually in the body
of the message.
I wanted Saturn to work, but the quality control is still not up
there. As for great service,
it's as on;y good as the product....
cya....
.
I'd like to put in my $.02 worth:
Anybody wonder why American car companies (GM, Chrysler, Ford) increasingly build more
cars in Canada & Mexico rather than in the UNITED STATES, even thought we keep seeing import
manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Isuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Honda, BMW, Mercedes-Benz)
building/expanding more plants on US soil???
Anyone want proof?
Camaros that used to be made in Van Nuys, California are now made in Canada, along with
Luminas and Monte Carlos. There are Buick Centurys made in Mexico.
Some Chrysler Corp. Neons are made in Mexico. They certainly make Rams over there.
Toyota Tacomas, Corollas, Camrys, Avalons are made in US. (T-100 in the future)
Honda Accords, Civics are made in America.
Isuzu Hombre pickups are assembled in Louisiana.
Mazda is helping Ford produce Probes/MX-6 here.
Diamond Star (Mitsu) makes 'em here.
BMW Z3s in the South.
Mercedes AAV soon in the South.
Anyone see a trend here?
Hell, if Mercedes & BMW are willing to start investing now in the US, why are "our" good 'ol "buy
American gimicky" car companies employing more & more non US employees??? Damn it if the US car
companies blame quality on American workers, because Toyota & Honda make damn solid cars in the
US (meaning not from Japan, Canada, or Mexico).
Now I've experienced older GM pickups and cars. They definately have are more dependable than
many of my friends Mercedes. But when it comes to Toy or Honda, Pacific rim guys hold the title.
Remember, theyre investing in US workers, while US companies are making a quick buck producing
cars thousands of miles from here.
Highlights:
'75 Chevy Monte Carlo with 180,000 miles (original everything except the water pump)-Made in USA
'78 Toy Celica, 200k miles (original except for tires)- drives like a dream! Made in Japan
Craig
. wrote:
>
> I'd like to put in my $.02 worth:
> Anybody wonder why American car companies (GM, Chrysler, Ford) increasingly build more
> cars in Canada & Mexico rather than in the UNITED STATES, even thought we keep seeing import
> manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Isuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Honda, BMW, Mercedes-Benz)
> building/expanding more plants on US soil???
.. Damn it if the US car
> companies blame quality on American workers, because Toyota & Honda make damn solid cars in the
> US (meaning not from Japan, Canada, or Mexico).
Wait a minute. A "foreign" car from Canada is not the same a a foreign car from Japan. Canada and
the US are essential one unified auto market. The big three build cars in both countries and export
in both directions across the border (in roughly the same quantities). The CAW union works closely
with the UAW, and in fact was until recently the same union. So, most importantly, having the big
three build cars in Canada does not contribute to the US trade deficit.
In short, don't sweat US car companies owning Canadian plants.
Jason Mansfield Roth
>An observation for anyone passing through this thread:
>
>You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
>bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
>cars in the world.
>
>a big hat.
I also had to reply to this. Do you really not recall all those tiresome
steel ball-on-joint commercials, and all that other crap. When the
Japanese lost their edge in pricing and fuel efficiency (this happened
nearly five years ago, _before the Drop of the Dollar), they had to turn
to ads about their quality and "refinement", since they no longer held
edges in the areas through which they had conquered the American market.
JMR
93 SL2, blue-green
"I never gave anyone hell -- I just told 'em the truth, and they thought
it was hell."
"What's the use of a good house if you don't have a decent planet to put
it on?"
Jason Mansfield Roth
>>
>> The Japanese don't also publicize their recalls and make
>> a good product.
>>
>Not to cause a flame war or anything, but you cannot base your decision
>on one acura car that has transmission problems and a Nissan Sentra. If
>you notice the reliablity rate, acura,lexus,infiniti,nissan,toyota, etc.
>all are expectionally reliable cars. There will always be a
>percentage of cars in every company that are bad. If you complain about
>Acura or Nissan, then how about Chrysler not wanting to replace the
>latches on the minivan or the seat belt bolts on the stratus. Then
>there is Ford with the transmission problem in the taruses and GM with
>their paint problem. The list can go on and on.
As keeps coming up on this thread, there's Japanese cars, US cars, and
Saturns. What is the most publicized recall since the Pinto (with the
exception of the GM pickup/Dateline situation)? Why, the Saturn ignition
recall of '94, of course. Unlike every other car company in existence,
Saturn has never had a "secret" recall, nor (and this is widely known
Japanese SOP) recalls under the guise of "standard maintenance", nort
any half-measures. Bad coolant in your car? We'll replace it with a new,
and take the old car and saw it in half and give it to showrooms for
display. A gimmick you say? Well, how is taking a real problem and
making it a good situiation for everybody a bad thing, while
half-truths, half-measures, and legal wrangling are a good thing?
Charles
Let me add that, though I did earlier openly wonder if the
editors/writers of Consumer Reports didn't have a "hidden agenda," I
personally would ALWAYS prefer to read what Consumer Reports has to say
about cars than what industry mouthpiece magazines (there are many of
these, of course) say. Equally, I give more credence to CR than to its
competitor Consumer Digest -- because the latter DOES accept
advertising.
Yes, I really do trust CR's info and reviews more. One of the most
valuable services CR performs for its readers is scoring scores of
models annually based on the feedback it receives from readers who've
actually bought and driven the cars.
However, while I prefer and trust CR more than other auto or
consumer-related mags, I don't see this as meaning I should look at
that specific publication as uncorruptible.
In my earlier post, I was essentially alluding to the possibility
that CR had ever "sold out" to companies whose products it reviewed.
Syd
Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Keith:
: I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
: deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
: maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
: not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
: and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And GM does, right?
--
Dennis P. Hilgenberg
s...@cyberverse.com
Bob Yelnats
Charles (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> I've always wondered why "Consumer Reports" gave such glowing reviews
> of Japanese cars.
> IMO, one must ask, "WHO ARE the people who do the test drives? Who
> write the reviews? Might they have a "hidden agenda"?
> traditionally been very negative towards Volkswagen products. The
> brutal pan they gave VW's "Eurovan" when it hit the market even
> surprised me, who have come to expect less-than-favorable reviews of VW
> products from the magazine. As it is, I think the "Eurovan" was pulled
> off the market by VW almost as soon as it hit the market; whether that
> CR pan was a big reason for this, who knows?
I am not sure who tests cars at CR, but CR's reliability reports come from
a large sample of CR subscribers (regular people like you and me) who
respond to a survey that's done anually. As far as CR being anti-VW, I
haven't noticed that. I am not saying its not true, but perhaps VW just
hasn't made any cars in a while that stack up to the other car companies'
cars based on the same critia that CR uses for rating their cars.
Ed Dybdal
Monil Shah wrote:
>
> Kim Naru (Contractor) wrote:
> >
> > Keith E. Loyd (KEL...@mail.myriad.net) wrote:
> >
> > : You never hear the Japanese thumping their chests, strutting around and
> > : bragging about the quality of their cars; they quietly make the best
> > : cars in the world.
> >
> > Integera had MAJOR transmission problems, which the dealership
> > fixed for free without mentioning the inherent flaw.
> > All along I thought "Wow, this is called service, no wonder the
> > Japenese are so difficult to beat", that was until my
> > friend did some resarch and found out the tranmission problem
> > was a known flaw which the company wasn't willing to admit to.
> >
> > a good product.
> >
> Not to cause a flame war or anything, but you cannot base your decision
> on one acura car that has transmission problems and a Nissan Sentra. If
> you notice the reliablity rate, acura,lexus,infiniti,nissan,toyota, etc.
> all are expectionally reliable cars. There will always be a
> percentage of cars in every company that are bad. If you complain about
> Acura or Nissan, then how about Chrysler not wanting to replace the
> latches on the minivan or the seat belt bolts on the stratus. Then
> there is Ford with the transmission problem in the taruses and GM with
> their paint problem. The list can go on and on.
Why is everybody so hung up on reliability. It is important but I think
something like durability is just as or more important. While Lexus may
be extremely reliable they cant even imagine to touch Mercedes in the
durability department, after all they do hold the record for "most
durable car" in the guiness book of world records.
Michael Zarlenga
Kenneth Willis (kwwi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Right now I own a Lincoln Mark VII which has over 105,000 miles on it.
: The engine is an Iron Horse with as much pick up and power as the day I
: bought it. The air suspension system still works like a dream, the
My last 3 new cars (Toyota, Honda, Toyota) all made it well past
100K and that's with hard, aggressive driving and minimal care (I
change my oil every 10-20K miles)
My last car, a Celica, was still going strong at 180K miles (dunno the
REAL mileage, the speedo was broken for 2 years, so it was most likely
about 240K) and 9 years old when I totaled the car. Over the 9 years
I had that car, it required one clutch, 2 sets of CV joints and one
timing belt (at 150K miles, I replaced it just to be safe).
Since then (1995), thanks to the strongest economy in 30 years, I've
only been able to afford used cars. First a 1985 Chrysler LeBaron with
78K miles. Brakes, clutch, timing belt, electrical system and exhaust
all either failed or started to fail in the 12 months (and 40K) miles
during which I drove the car.
Then, earlier this year I bought a 1986 Ford Tempo with 95K miles.
Since then, and 10K miles, The exhaust has started to leak, a strut
broke free, the master cylinder failed, the oxygen sensor went dead
and the car now idles at 2500 RPM, the trunk developed (or had) a
terrible water leak, the power steering system is losing fluid and
needs to be refilled weekly and the a/c stopped working.
I know where I place MY faith in quality cars, and it's not with
the Big Three.
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
I'm a PETA lifetime member : People Eating Tasty Animals.
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP Public key and killfile
Mike Lamb
"." <jw...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> Anyone see a trend here?
> Hell, if Mercedes & BMW are willing to start investing now in the US, why are "our" good 'ol "buy
> US (meaning not from Japan, Canada, or Mexico).
> many of my friends Mercedes. But when it comes to Toy or Honda, Pacific rim guys hold the title.
> Remember, theyre investing in US workers, while US companies are making a quick buck producing
> cars thousands of miles from here.
>
> Highlights:
> '75 Chevy Monte Carlo with 180,000 miles (original everything except the water pump)-Made in USA
> '78 Toy Celica, 200k miles (original except for tires)- drives like a dream! Made in Japan
I can see your point, but I must add these points.
1) The *Big Three* auto companies are NOT national companies anymore!
They are GLOBAL companies! Global companies DO NOT give a damn
where they make their money from. Matter of fact the only thing
that matters to them is the bottom line! No matter who it hurts!
2) These *Big Three* auto companies owes allegience to NO country,
including the U.S. Shit their gross incomes are larger than most
countries!
3) Did you know that the Board of Directors for the respective *Big
Three* auto companies actually sit on each others boards? Actually
these cross over directors are representatives from the major
banks who handles the auto companies assets/monies. Now you
wouldn't believe in today's business that banks would loan mega-
bucks to companies without having a say would you? In reality
these bankers run the auto companies by form of blackmail.
4) While quality is the theme from the *Big Three*, in reality
quality today is less than than it was 30 years ago! (Part of
this actually came from a Ford VP who was fired/quit under
threatening circumstances). I for myself have noticed this
*quality* lie for many years.
5) Concerning the conspiracy theories, if one looks at the GATT/NAFTA
agreements and the world courts, UN future economic zones...ect.
it does become quite clear that the United States is being
moved into a position of just another world country with NO
allegience from any national companies (actually national
companies would be eliminated). To accomplish this the US must
DECREASE its' standard of living to be competetive with all
the other countries. This means LOWER wages, NO life
guarantees for workers, LESS workers as jobs are exported overseas.
In short, today there is NO such thing as a US car. Yet the *Big
Three* would tell you the oppisite to sell cars to americans wishing
to support their country! This same philosophy is just as true
for many items besides cars. Accordingly I will no longer consider
a product based on where it is made, BUT I will base products on
quality where ever it is made. Sorry, while I have always owned
Fords, my next purchase WILL be Japanese!
Best,
Mike Lamb
Mr. Aaron
Come on..... Tell me more about your FOMOCO?????
> >> >Jeeze...
> >>
> >> Oh please. Saturn is just more GM crap. Wait until the paint peels off
> >> your Saturn because someone at GM decided to buy bad paint since
> >> 1984....
> >Hey Robert, that's the point I was trying to make to Mr. Willis
>
> >The 96 Saturn's , for the most part are junk... It seems that my
> >specific auto was rushed through the line, and they obviously
> >decided to deal with all the problems later?
> >When I paid for this car in full, they didn't have to wait till later!
> >GM, and all the nice Saturn types that put these puppies together,
> >well, at this point can kiss my crack!!! As soon as this thing gets
> >"all" the work that it needs, it's trade in for a Acura Integra!!
> >Give us a kiss GM!!! Bite me saturnites!!!
> >US CARS STILL SUCK THE BIG WAZOO!!!
>
> Go ahead buy that jap crap. I'll continue driving my american cars. At
> least I am supporting AMERICANS.
>
You sure about that???? Many, many of the parts for American cars are
made in other countries. The cars made be assembled here, but so are
alot of Japanese cars, that way they can get around quite a few of those import
sanctions. Your heart is in the right place, but there isn't a car in this
country that is 100% american, at least not from about 1970 or so....
Aaron
gdan
In article <4r6dif$9...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, Kenneth Willis <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com> says:
>
>Keith:
>
>I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
>deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
>maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
>not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
>and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>
>CA.
>
If yanks didn't design crap maybe they would create jobs.
Maybe the Japs don't care if you have a job but they sure
create a lot of them by building the only good cars
in the states in the states .
Bentley
Ed Dybdal (ed...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Why is everybody so hung up on reliability. It is important but I think
: be extremely reliable they cant even imagine to touch Mercedes in the
: durability department, after all they do hold the record for "most
: durable car" in the guiness book of world records.
This one gave me a good laugh.
Sir, what year is the Mercedes in the Guiness book?
What year did Lexus first start selling cars?
Now, I'm not saying that Lexus is going to topple MB -- it probably won't
-- but this kind of thinking is what gives many of us drive American autos
a bad name. Reminds me of the book, 'The Myths of Japanese Quality," in
which the author pointed out that that while Lexus was #1 in JD Power
initial satisfaction index, they weren't even in the top 20 in
reliability.... what he failed to point out, of course, was that the
reliability study was done in 1994, and there were no 5-year old Lexi to
rate...
If you can't beat 'em, bash 'em?
Charles
In <4rgv3n$a...@server2.ols.net> Mike Lamb <mike...@ols.net> writes:
[deletia]
>> Highlights:
>> '75 Chevy Monte Carlo with 180,000 miles (original everything except
the water pump)-Made in USA
>> '78 Toy Celica, 200k miles (original except for tires)- drives like
a dream! Made in Japan
>======================================================================
Interesting: I just read a post under the "Saturn quality is a
gimmick" subject line in another ng that ALSO mentioned the older
Toyota Celica in very glowing terms.
I wouldn't be writing this if I, myself, hadn't started noticing how
damn UBIQUITOUS old (1970's-era) Celicas are. I'm tellin' ya, I see
them EVERYWHERE. Often in that OE mustard-gold body paint ( usually not
shiny any longer, but neither peeling after almost two decades!)
w/black vinyl roof scheme.
Were these cars made from indestructable components or something? Or
did they merely attract original buyers who were above-average in
maintenance for some reason?
(It's been suggested that the reason old, inexpensive Japanese cars
often last so long is that their owners, lacking the resources to just
go out and buy new cars whenever desired, intentionally buy 'em for
long term use and care for them with that knowledge in mind.)
>I can see your point, but I must add these points.
[deletia]
>5) Concerning the conspiracy theories, if one looks at the GATT/NAFTA
> agreements and the world courts, UN future economic zones...ect.
> it does become quite clear that the United States is being
> moved into a position of just another world country with NO
> allegience from any national companies (actually national
> companies would be eliminated). To accomplish this the US must
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> DECREASE its' standard of living to be competetive with all
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the other countries. [snip]
I've suspected for years that the phenomenally-low-class nature of
the tv talk shows, especially since the beginning of the 1990s, ties
into this.
I.e., just take a peek at a "typical" Jerry Springer or Montel
Williams or (befor he announced his retirement from the daily polluting
of the airwaves) Phil Donohue -- they're CHOCK FULL of the people from
the lowest -- and I mean LOWEST -- socioeconomic classes in society.
Anyone who's watched any of these sleaze-tv shows knows EXACTLY what
I'm talking about.
Millions of schoolchildren come home each day and watch these
despicable programs and, as a result, it's ensured that the general
character of our future society will resemble more "the other side of
the tracks" or else what one would more likely expect of "Third World"
societies.
[snip]
Frank Yang
In article <31D9AB...@tandem.com>, gaydos...@tandem.com says...
>
>. wrote:
>>
>
>> I'd like to put in my $.02 worth:
>> Anybody wonder why American car companies (GM, Chrysler, Ford)
increa
>singly build more
>> cars in Canada & Mexico rather than in the UNITED STATES, even thought we
keep
> seeing import
>> manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Isuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Honda, BMW,
Mercedes
>-Benz)
>> building/expanding more plants on US soil???
>
>
>> companies blame quality on American workers, because Toyota & Honda make
damn
>solid cars in the
>> US (meaning not from Japan, Canada, or Mexico).
>
from
> Japan. Canada and
>the US are essential one unified auto market. The big three build cars in
both
>countries and export
>in both directions across the border (in roughly the same quantities). The
CAW
>union works closely
>with the UAW, and in fact was until recently the same union. So, most
important
>ly, having the big
>three build cars in Canada does not contribute to the US trade deficit.
>
>In short, don't sweat US car companies owning Canadian plants.
--
Perhaps you could see US and Japan as one unified auto market as well? The
Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export in
both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
- Frank
----------------------------------------------------------
Frank Yang - Systems Engineer - Branch #55 - New York City
CompuCom - 10100 N. Central Expressway - Dallas, Texas
Richard A. De Castro
ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) writes:
>I agree. If you pick any one vehicle, you can wind up with a lemon.
>That's why I like to look at things like the JD Power surveys of new
>car owners. You get a much larger distribution of vehicles (some
>are bound to be lemons from a statistical standpoint) and you wind
>up with a more even measure of the overall quality of the car.
But, there's a couple of major flaws in the way that JD Powers collects
data. First of all, they ask legal owners, so leased cars (usually leased
from the manufacturers credit company) are rated very highly.
Secondly, they only ask new owners within the first 90 days, before
chronic problems have been identified and while people are still pleased
with the new car. I've been (basically) pleased with my '91 Taurus, but
if they'd called me 18 months ago when the transmission went out, it would
have been different.
>Don't take my word for it. Do the research. Saturn has been right
>up there with Lexus and Infiniti for the past several years. If I'm
>not mistaken, it's been Lexus/Infiniti in the 1/2 spot and Saturn in
>third each time.
>Cheers,
>Chris
>--
>Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
>ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
>Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
>201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
--
============================================================================
deca...@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really!
Rick N6RCX NREMT ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro - To those who have defended it, Freedom has a flavor
deca...@pacificnet.net the Protected will never enjoy.
-Don't Tread On Me!- =Don't Forget to Vote!=
=============================================================================
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
What is a yanks and what is a japs?. Oh and what are you?
Lloyd R. Parker
Frank Yang (usd5...@interramp.com) wrote:
: --
: Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export in
: both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
When the day comes the Japanese drop trade barriers like Canada has, and
join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
that way.
And we are exporting cars to Japan.
Todd M. Reasland
In article <decastroD...@netcom.com>, deca...@netcom.com (Richard
A. De Castro) wrote:
> But, there's a couple of major flaws in the way that JD Powers collects
> data. First of all, they ask legal owners, so leased cars (usually leased
> from the manufacturers credit company) are rated very highly.
Then wouldn't Ford and GM show up better? Ford leases a heckuva lot of
cars, folks...
(Not bashing Ford, here...I just bought another one.)
Bentley
Organization: National Brotherhood of Evil Geniussess
Distribution:
Todd M. Reasland (reasl...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Then wouldn't Ford and GM show up better? Ford leases a heckuva lot of
: cars, folks...
More so, in fact, than Lexus or Infiniti. BUT as a percentage of total
cars sold/leased, the percentage is much higher on $50K+ cars, about 75%
if memory serves. Ford's and GM's percentage is much lower, closer to the
35% average for all cars.
Bentley
Organization: National Brotherhood of Evil Geniussess
Distribution:
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
: When the day comes the Japanese drop trade barriers like Canada has, and
: join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
: as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
: that way.
:
: And we are exporting cars to Japan.
Is it just me, or do those two paragraphs not jibe. Japan keeps US cars
out, but we are exporting cars to Japan... hmm...
[Newsgroups severely trimmed!]
sl...@primenet.com
ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) wrote:
>Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
>(a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
> "ringer" from the manufacturer.
>(b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
> not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
> budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
> others of that genre don't take that into account?
>So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
>least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
>of mainstream car rags.
>Cheers,
>Chris
>--
>Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
>ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
>Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
>201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
In response to Mr. Mauritz's recent post:
Comsumer Reports is fine if you want to buy a toaster. But if you want
to buy a car Mr. Mauritz, you ought to consider a real auto
publication such as Road and Track or any other good auto magazine.
Consumer Reports shouldn't even be included in a discussion about a GM
car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
mind) and love Japanese.
Just my O.02
BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
whatever else?
Ed Dybdal
gdan wrote:
>
> In article <4r6dif$9...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, Kenneth Willis <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com> says:
> >
> >Keith:
> >
> >I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
> >deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
> >maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
> >not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
> >and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
> >
> >K.W.
> >CA.
> >
> If yanks didn't design crap maybe they would create jobs.
> Maybe the Japs don't care if you have a job but they sure
> create a lot of them by building the only good cars
Japs building good cars in the states. Ha Ha. And the japs are
innovative designers? You are aware that of import manufacturers
building in the US 2 of them happen to be BMW and Mercedes-Benz
who build far superior automobiles than japs could ever hope to. Plus
they dont use trendy styling on their cars like japs do so that after a
few years the car looks and is out of style. Of all the cars ive ever
driven in the Japs take the cake for flimsy outside panels. The doors on
my friends Honda Accord feels like a tin can and that if someone
sideswiped you at 5 mph you would be dead. Dont even get me started on
their cheap mini trucks. Iwould take an American car any day over a jap
copy.
Tigress
In article <31DDDE...@earthlink.net>,
Ed Dybdal <ed...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Japs building good cars in the states. Ha Ha. And the japs are
No need to get racist here, it is Japanese.
>innovative designers? You are aware that of import manufacturers
>building in the US 2 of them happen to be BMW and Mercedes-Benz
>who build far superior automobiles than japs could ever hope to. Plus
>they dont use trendy styling on their cars like japs do so that after a
>few years the car looks and is out of style. Of all the cars ive ever
>driven in the Japs take the cake for flimsy outside panels. The doors on
>my friends Honda Accord feels like a tin can and that if someone
>sideswiped you at 5 mph you would be dead. Dont even get me started on
>their cheap mini trucks. Iwould take an American car any day over a jap
>copy.
I personally think the Japanese did a good thing by forcing the American
car companies to shape up after making crap in the early 80's.
European cars couldn't really compete cause they aren't really affordable
to most people (at least most European cars).
Japanese made a decent car for a decent price. Nowadays though I probably
would go for American, or European (who all the sudden are worried now
about the price tag), cause I just can't see paying 20,000
for a Honda Accord. Though really I think all the cars are overpriced and
am hoping that the Korean cars do for these other car companies prices what
the Japanese car companies did for American cars quality. Though you
can't even get one of those for less than 10 grand.
Oh well, I could keep b*tching about how cars are way overpriced (even
the econo cars are around 10 grand, ick!) today, but I will quit now.
Tigress
--
Lover of all that is Lamborghini, Defender of Porsches:
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Homepage:http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt3220a/
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@cc.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat drawn by Felix Lee
XMAN
Ed Dybdal wrote:
>
> gdan wrote:
> >
> > In article <4r6dif$9...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, Kenneth Willis <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com> says:
> > >
> > >Keith:
> > >
> > >I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
> > >deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
> > >maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
> > >not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
> > >and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
> > >
> > >K.W.
> > >CA.
> > >
> > If yanks didn't design crap maybe they would create jobs.
> > Maybe the Japs don't care if you have a job but they sure
> > create a lot of them by building the only good cars
> > in the states in the states .
>
> building in the US 2 of them happen to be BMW and Mercedes-Benz
> who build far superior automobiles than japs could ever hope to. Plus
> they dont use trendy styling on their cars like japs do so that after a
> few years the car looks and is out of style. Of all the cars ive ever
> driven in the Japs take the cake for flimsy outside panels. The doors on
> my friends Honda Accord feels like a tin can and that if someone
> sideswiped you at 5 mph you would be dead. Dont even get me started on
> their cheap mini trucks. Iwould take an American car any day over a jap
> copy.
Face it american cars are crap!
[flame on]
Keith Harvey
In article <31d77e68...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
Richard.Johns...@worldnet.att.net (Richard Johnson) wrote:
>On 30 Jun 1996 17:29:51 GMT, Kenneth Willis <kwwi...@ix.netcom.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Keith:
>>
>>I also never heard of a Japanese car maker offering to reduce our trade
>>deficit, make it possible for you to get social security, help Americans
>>maintain their jobs or frankly, do anything other than help Japan. I do
>>not need to bash Japan, but in fact they don't make the worlds best cars
>>and they don't give a damn if you loose your job!
>>
>>K.W.
>>CA.
>>
>
>buy an American car if I can find one that's good enough, and I think
>Saturn is. Japanese cars used to be cheaper than American cars but
>that's long over.
This is curious, you say you would prefer to buy an american car yet further
down in this newsgroup you talk about buying a subaru outback. I very well
could be wrong, but isn't subaru from Japan?
I've never heard of anyone in love with a japanese car as you seem to be in
your posting "subaru outback"
I suppose you are going to use amsoil in it too?
Be an American & buy America
Frank Yang
In article <4rja0n$k...@larry.cc.emory.edu>, lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu
says...
>
>Frank Yang (usd5...@interramp.com) wrote:
>: --
>: Perhaps you could see US and Japan as one unified auto market as well?
The
>: Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export
in
>: both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
>
>join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
>as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
>that way.
>
>And we are exporting cars to Japan.
--
May I ask what exactly the Japanese government do to keep American cars out?
I've heard people keep saying "The Japanese setup trade barriers for American
cars," but none of them can show some proof.
Ever wonder how our trade talks with Japan always "fails"? That's because
there really isn't any barrier to begin with. There's nothing to "talk"
about. It's just some politicians trying to make you believe that they are
working on it.
In order to sell more cars to Japan, we need to spend more time at the
designing table, not the bargaining table.
We export less than 20,000 cars a year to Japan, not very impressive.
Mel Lammers
sl...@primenet.com wrote:
snip
>BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
>down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>whatever else?
Would that be the Honda made in Ohio, or the Toyota made in
California, or the Nissian in Illinois (I may be wrong here) which
employ thousands of American workers in their construction?
--Mel--
Industrial Engineer
Management Engineer
Program Management
Life Cycle Cost Control Expert (digital data management and
standards)
Mike Lamb
lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker) wrote:
>
> Frank Yang (usd5...@interramp.com) wrote:
> : --
> : Perhaps you could see US and Japan as one unified auto market as well? The
> : Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export in
> : both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
>
> When the day comes the Japanese drop trade barriers like Canada has, and
> join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
> as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
> that way.
>
> And we are exporting cars to Japan.
Ford, GM and Chrysler all import cars under their nameplates
that are made in Japan by Japanese Companies. Ford even owns
a large if not majority percentage of Mazda. Yet the *Big Three*
were the loudest cry babies when it came to imports?! Also
consider that up to 30% (if the rate hasn't changed up) of the
*Big Three's* parts can be imported and attached to cars
supposedly made in the US. Sorry fellas, I don't see the
*Big Three* as American Companies anymore! I see them as globalist
companies. They don't give a hoot-n-hell about ANY worker,
American, Japanese or otherwise! They want the mooely, cabbage,
green stuff! You know MONEY! The country of origin makes no
difference, pride makes no difference, quality makes no difference.
MONEY makes a difference!
It was also mentioned to me that Chrysler wasn't consider part
of the now *Big Two* (no longer large enough) and was only in
the US! This is very wrong! Chrysler owns parts of TWO Italian
car companies and has a stake riding with with Isuzu (sp? I think
this was the one) in Japan. Also Chrysler has plants in Canada
and Mexico. Chrysler is by NO means a SMALL company!
Mike Lamb
Chris Mauritz
sl...@primenet.com wrote:
: ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) wrote:
:
: >Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
:
: >(a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
: > "ringer" from the manufacturer.
: >(b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
: > not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
: > budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
: > others of that genre don't take that into account?
:
: >So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
: >least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
: >of mainstream car rags.
:
: >Cheers,
:
: >Chris
: >--
: >Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
: >ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
: >Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
: >201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
:
: In response to Mr. Mauritz's recent post:
: Comsumer Reports is fine if you want to buy a toaster. But if you want
: to buy a car Mr. Mauritz, you ought to consider a real auto
: publication such as Road and Track or any other good auto magazine.
No thanks. I'd rather rely on a publication that doesn't cow tow to
big advertisers. CR might not be your cup of tea, but they don't take
advertisement money from the from auto manufacturers, nor do they accept
"ringers" as "gifts" to evaluate. They walk into a dealer and buy a
car just like "an average person" and test that vehicle.
: Consumer Reports shouldn't even be included in a discussion about a GM
: car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
: mind) and love Japanese.
Which is rather amusing since they normally give the Saturns a very
good rating (though I've heard they've been less "loving" in recent
reviews).
: Just my O.02
About all it's worth.
: BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
: down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
: whatever else?
Dunno. I drive a Saturn and a Harley....though I didn't buy either
vehicle for your knee-jerk reasons. I bought what I felt was the best
bang for my buck at the time of the purchase. If every American did
this, our auto/bike manufacturers would either shape up or join the
ranks of Nash/Packard/etc.
Regards,
Anne Hutchins
Mel Lammers wrote:
>
> sl...@primenet.com wrote:
>
> snip
> >BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
> >down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
> >whatever else?
>
> California, or the Nissian in Illinois (I may be wrong here) which
> employ thousands of American workers in their construction?
> --Mel--
> Industrial Engineer
> Management Engineer
> Program Management
> Life Cycle Cost Control Expert (digital data management and
> standards)
Well, Mel---maybe those "thousands of American workers" are what
contribute to Japanese quality?
Regards,
Anne Hutchins
ahut...@znet.com
'96 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo
(and former BMW owner)
Frank Yang
In article <4rklnn$k...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, sl...@primenet.com says...
>
>ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) wrote:
>
>>Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
>
>>(a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
>> "ringer" from the manufacturer.
>>(b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
>> not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
>> budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
>> others of that genre don't take that into account?
>
>>So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
>>least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
>>of mainstream car rags.
>
>>Cheers,
>
>>Chris
>>--
>>Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
>>ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
>>Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
>>201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
>
>In response to Mr. Mauritz's recent post:
>Comsumer Reports is fine if you want to buy a toaster. But if you want
>to buy a car Mr. Mauritz, you ought to consider a real auto
>publication such as Road and Track or any other good auto magazine.
>car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
>mind) and love Japanese.
>
>BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
>down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>whatever else?
>
--
If the so-called "patriotism" is the only sales tactic left for American
automakers, then I guess it's all over.
How'bout driving a Toyota Camry down Route 66? Imported from Kentucky.
A trend: The Japanese auto makers are moving the production here to make
Americans happy, while the "patriotic" big-3 are moving to Canada and Mexico.
Their excuses: "We are a global company now.... Canada and Mexico are in
the trade pack...., etc. etc." The reality is less Americans are employeed
by the big-3, and more Americans are working for "foreign" companies.
Todd M. Reasland
> BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
> down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
> whatever else?
When a good friend lost his job thanks, in part, to the UAW. He now makes
huge bucks at __Honda__ .
Todd M. Reasland
In article <4rko9e$3...@felix.cc.gatech.edu>, tig...@cc.gatech.edu
(Tigress) wrote:
> I personally think the Japanese did a good thing by forcing the American
> car companies to shape up after making crap in the early 80's.
AMEN!
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
In article <31DE3A...@znet.com>, Anne Hutchins <ahut...@znet.com> wrote:
>Mel Lammers wrote:
>>
>> sl...@primenet.com wrote:
>>
>> snip
>> >down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>> >whatever else?
>>
>> California, or the Nissian in Illinois (I may be wrong here) which
>> employ thousands of American workers in their construction?
>> --Mel--
>> Industrial Engineer
>> Management Engineer
>> Program Management
>> Life Cycle Cost Control Expert (digital data management and
>> standards)
>
>Well, Mel---maybe those "thousands of American workers" are what
>contribute to Japanese quality?
>
>Regards,
>Anne Hutchins
>ahut...@znet.com
>'96 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo
>(and former BMW owner)
>
Seems reasonable to me Anne. I have heard some Japanese companies reverse
import their american built models back home for domestic consumption for the
very reason you state.
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
In article <reasland.1-06...@ts23-3.homenet.ohio-state.edu>, reasl...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Todd M. Reasland) wrote:
>> BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
>> down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>> whatever else?
>
>huge bucks at __Honda__ .
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
In article <4rja0n$k...@larry.cc.emory.edu>, lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker) wrote:
>Frank Yang (usd5...@interramp.com) wrote:
>: --
>: Perhaps you could see US and Japan as one unified auto market as well? The
>: Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export in
>: both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
>
>When the day comes the Japanese drop trade barriers like Canada has, and
>join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
>as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
>that way.
Exactly, Japan has a habit of restricting trade and giving home companies
favored treatment. In the US it is just the opposite. Get tough with the
Japanese on this issue America. Let them know we are wise to their subsidized
automobile and electronics industries coming into other countries and "buying"
the market with low cost goods, then raising prices after the domestic
manufacturers are gone. It is part of their master economic plan. Read their
literature. Learn about their tactics. They have declared economic war and
they are winning because they play by their own rules. We must begin to
enforce our laws and restrict them from free access to our markets until they
allow free access to theirs for all countries. Then we will have true economic
competition and American companies will engage them on their own soil and
win.
>
>And we are exporting cars to Japan.
Tokenism is great!!
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
In article <4rkpdn$l...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mlam...@ix.netcom.com (Mel Lammers) wrote:
>sl...@primenet.com wrote:
>
>snip
>>BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
>>down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>>whatever else?
>
>California, or the Nissian in Illinois (I may be wrong here) which
>employ thousands of American workers in their construction?
No it would be the Honda assembled in Ohio of mostly Japanese parts, The
Toyota assembled in California of mostly Japanese parts, the Nissan assembled
in Illinois of mostly Japanese parts. These plants employ americans at much
less than the going rate for this industry in general.
>--Mel--
>Industrial Engineer
>Management Engineer
>Program Management
>Life Cycle Cost Control Expert (digital data management and
>standards)
>
How's the diner Mel?
Kanda Computers and Network Systems
>May I ask what exactly the Japanese government do to keep American cars out?
>I've heard people keep saying "The Japanese setup trade barriers for American
>cars," but none of them can show some proof.
How about setting taraffs and taxes so high that a typical $20,000 imported
automobile costs 2 or 3 times that at the retail level.
>
>Ever wonder how our trade talks with Japan always "fails"? That's because
>there really isn't any barrier to begin with. There's nothing to "talk"
>about. It's just some politicians trying to make you believe that they are
>working on it.
Do you suppose it has anything to do with the real issues like foreign
ownership and goverment subsidies of industries like autos, steel, and
electronics? There is much to talk about. The problem is the Japanese won't
discuss these issues because without the unfair advantage the government gives
them they would loss ther home market to foreign competition from america and
europe.
>
>In order to sell more cars to Japan, we need to spend more time at the
>designing table, not the bargaining table.
Nah, just copy european design. That's what the Japanese do. It works for
them.
>
>We export less than 20,000 cars a year to Japan, not very impressive.
>
Hmmmm.... interesting. Please account for why the number is so low when we
import millions of cars from their country. It must be very easy to bring
imports into Japan right? It must be very easy to open a Chevy dealership in
Japan right? I bet the Japanese government would give you a loan to help you
right?
Michael Zarlenga
sl...@primenet.com wrote:
: In response to Mr. Mauritz's recent post:
: Comsumer Reports is fine if you want to buy a toaster. But if you want
: to buy a car Mr. Mauritz, you ought to consider a real auto
: publication such as Road and Track or any other good auto magazine.
How about Motor Trend? Is that a "real auto publication?"
How do they select their "car of the year?"
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
I'm a PETA lifetime member : People Eating Tasty Animals.
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP Public key and killfile
Ruff
>> If yanks didn't design crap maybe they would create jobs.
>> Maybe the Japs don't care if you have a job but they sure
>> create a lot of them by building the only good cars
>> in the states in the states .
>Japs building good cars in the states. Ha Ha. And the japs are
>innovative designers? You are aware that of import manufacturers
>building in the US 2 of them happen to be BMW and Mercedes-Benz
>who build far superior automobiles than japs could ever hope to. Plus
>they dont use trendy styling on their cars like japs do so that after a
>few years the car looks and is out of style. Of all the cars ive ever
>driven in the Japs take the cake for flimsy outside panels. The doors on
>my friends Honda Accord feels like a tin can and that if someone
>sideswiped you at 5 mph you would be dead. Dont even get me started on
>their cheap mini trucks. Iwould take an American car any day over a jap
>copy.
Amen brother, my friend bought a new honda accord and at the time new
cars had 2 year tags on them. We live at the shore and in a year one
of the fenders started getting a bubble in the paint, when inspection
time came around the bubble had turned into a hole you could stick
your head through, it flunked inspection because of it. I went with
him to pick up a pair of new fenders when they arrived, I grabbed one
and almost broke my arm, it weighed nothing! It was like foil. We had
recently picked up a door skin for his `68 Camaro and I'm sure that
one door skin weighs twice what the 2 honda fenders weigh. When we
dropped the new fenders off at the body shop, they had already removed
the old ones, the car has no frame! It's only corrogated sheet metal
of the inner fenders that keep the car from folding up! My neighbor
had bought a honda in the mean time, he was retired and the honda
people were raking him for $300 bucks for all these service checks,
mainly they were changing the oil. I felt sorry for him and offered
to change the oil for him, he jumped on it and brought the car over to
my garage. Now I had to figure out how to jack up a frameless car
with a floor jack, I tried one spot and then another, but before the
front wheels came off the floor I ran out of nerve, I was sure the car
was going to bend in the middle.
I drive full size pickup trucks, Ford or Chevy 4X4s, I bought a F150
XL in `83, drove it 10 years, had no problems at all with it, traded
it in `93 for a Chevy short bed Silverado, which I still have, and it
is perfect, not one problem, squeak or rattle. American trucks have
the bugs out, they are the best in the world, you have to know what to
buy, a good old American cast iron V8, turning over slow via overdrive
is a very economical, durable machine.
sl...@primenet.com
N...@home.callback.later (Ruff) wrote:
There is no doubt that the Japanese can't make a truck. Notice in any
Toyota ad, they don't show the truck doing actual work. Ford, GM, and
Dodge show their trucks hauling stuff, and being used for work. Could
this be because the Japanese trucks can't stand up to pulling a 6,000
pound trailer on a daily basis, or because their truck couldn't pull
four more trucks at idle speed (Dodge 1500 V8), or being known as the
longest lasting trucks on the planet (Chevy), etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend, to the death, your
right to say it.
Jim
Lloyd R. Parker wrote:
>
> Frank Yang (usd5...@interramp.com) wrote:
> : --
> : Perhaps you could see US and Japan as one unified auto market as well? The
> : Japanese took steps to hire American workers, build cars here, and export in
> : both directions. We don't. Shame on us.
>
> When the day comes the Japanese drop trade barriers like Canada has, and
> join in a free-trade pact like Canada has, then I'll see the US and Japan
> as one unified market. When Japan keeps US cars out, I don't see them
> that way.
>
If it were not for the fact that U.S. automakers started selling Japanese
product under their names there would not be a significant Japanese car
industry. Chrysler was the first having a deal with Mitsubishi in the
'70s. GM and Ford followed quickly in jumping into the idea.
Now, 25 years later Chrysler has recently announced it will discontinue
selling Mitsubishi proucts under its trade names. Ford recently
announced that it now owns controlling interest in Mazda and that a Ford
Vice President will now be the President of Mazda. Ford is going to
discontinue selling the Mazda built Probe in 1998. If GM were to follow
Chrysler's lead and stop selling Toyota and Suzuki products under its
names both would probably fold.
The fact is no Asian car maker has ever contributed a single innovation
to the automobile. Everything they build or have built is based upon
primarily U.S. patents and a few European Patents. The second fact is
that without the direct support of U.S. car makers there would be few
Asian manufactured cars in the U.S., or perhaps anywhere else.
For those extolling the U.S. made BMW's and Mercedes-Benz, they have not
been a marketing success. When the removing effect that import duties
had on the prices of these cars reduced them to the same price range as a
Ford or Chevy, they are not expensive enough to appeal to the Yuppies
that equate high price cars to saying I have made it. Nearly 50% of the
price on an imported BMW or Mercedes is U.S. import duties. I always
figured it took an absolute idiot to pay $20,000 in taxes on a $25,000
car that was noisy, costly to maintain, and tended to ride like hell.
sl...@primenet.com
ben...@access1.digex.net (Bentley) wrote:
>Organization: National Brotherhood of Evil Geniussess
>Distribution:
>sl...@primenet.com wrote:
>: Consumer Reports shouldn't even be included in a discussion about a GM
>: car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
>: mind) and love Japanese.
>Certainly! In every case, they hate American cars. I completely agree.
>Well, except for the Buick Regal. They recommend that one. Oh yeah, and
>the Chevy Lumina. Just those two. Oops, and the Dodge Intrepid. Make that
>three. Ooops, forgot the Crown Vic. And the Explorer. And Ranger, sorry.
>Oh yeah, Thunderbird, too. Ahem, and let's not forget the Windstar, Prizm,
>Mark VIII, Cougar, Grand Marquis, Villager, Aurora, Bonneville, Grand
>Prix, Saturn SC, LeSabre, and Olds 88. All recommended by CR.
>But don't let this change your opinion, stick to your guns! CR hates all
>American cars and loves Japanese ones! Well, except for the del Sol. And
>the Passport. And the Rodeo. And, of course, the RX-7. Oh yeah, the
>Galant and Mirage, can't forget those.. or the Swift, Tacoma, Tercel, SLX,
>TL, Tracker, I30, Hombre, MPV, MX-3, 300GT, Eclipse, Mighty Max, Montero,
>200SX, 240SX, Pathfinder, Nissan pickup, Esteem, Sidekick, X90, 4Runner,
>Paseo, RAV4, or T100. Other than those 31 models, CR loves ALL Japanese
>products. So you are right!
>: Just my O.02
>And worth every penny, I might add!
>: BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
>: down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
>: whatever else?
Certainly! In every case CR can't solve any of the world's problems
either. I complety agree
Well, except for curing Aids. They can do that. Oh yeah, and no more
world hunger. Just those two. Oops, and ending dictatorships. Make
that three. Oops, censorship. And the population crisis. And giving
world a higher standard of living, sorry. Oh, yeah, world peace, too.
Ahem, and let's not forget better communication, bettertransportation,
no more polution, stopping the armament race, ending nuclear weapons,
ending chemical weapons, ending trade problems, ending the oil
shortage, education, crime, airplane safety, and better prison
conditions. All cured by CR.
But hey why stop there? CR only cures world problems and doesn't do
anything for yours. Well, except for your very own T1 Internet
Connection. And a Ferrari for every garage. And, of course, three
girls for every guy. Oh yeah, when you go out fishing CR promises that
you'll catch fish, or your money back, can't forget that.. or a small
multi-national corporation, CR can give you that. How about becoming a
Senator? The next Bill Gates? gotta get CR to do that. Hot tips on
stocks and bonds. CR will make you Ed McMahon's next 10 million dollar
winner. That new Motoryacht you've been lusting after. Retirement at
35, perhaps? How about a new 20,000 square foot house in Hollywood?
Maybe, you could star in your next feature film. A 100,000 watt home
stereo? How about your own ranch in Montana? King of a rich nation,
perhaps. Your own personal water park? A Cray Supercomputer for max
speed on the Internet? A tank? A helicopter? An Army, Navy, Air force,
or Marines, why not all four? Master of the the U.S. Treasury? Become
President of the US? Own the NBA, NFL, The American and National
Leagues of Baseball and the NHL? Other than those 31 things CR
doesn't do anything for you as an individual. So you are right.
Just my 0.02.
And worth what CR is, I might add!
>Never drove a Nissian. Some more Jap Crap?
You've probably never driven a Bentley, either.
>[source for above recommendations: CR 4/96 Annual Auto Issue]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Read: I really have nothing else to do so I read through CR and think
that they're God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend, to the death, your
right to say it. -Voltaire
.
> If it were not for the fact that U.S. automakers started selling Japanese
> product under their names there would not be a significant Japanese car
> industry. Chrysler was the first having a deal with Mitsubishi in the
3 were unwilling to design or produce. The US may be a large market, but if you look out into the
WORLD, the Japanese seem to totally dominate many markets because of their "down to earth"
quality, reliability, and value.
>
> Now, 25 years later Chrysler has recently announced it will discontinue
> selling Mitsubishi proucts under its trade names. Ford recently
> announced that it now owns controlling interest in Mazda and that a Ford
> Vice President will now be the President of Mazda. Ford is going to
> discontinue selling the Mazda built Probe in 1998. If GM were to follow
> Chrysler's lead and stop selling Toyota and Suzuki products under its
& T-100 #1 in initial quality (not to mention other Toy products I dont care to remember)
> The fact is no Asian car maker has ever contributed a single innovation
> to the automobile. Everything they build or have built is based upon
> primarily U.S. patents and a few European Patents. I dont know about patents, but have you ever wondered why a little turboed four banger
Mitsubishi eclipse can keep up with (if not whip) Ford's v-8 Mustang in acceleration? Is it not
superior design/engineering that a 3.4Liter Toy v-6 makes 190hp while Chevy's big bad 4.3Liter
High Output version makes only 195hp??? Thats almost 1 liter of difference in displacement!
>The second fact is that without the direct support of U.S. car makers there would be few
> Asian manufactured cars in the U.S., or perhaps anywhere else. Direct support? Who makes money when a company like GM rebadges a product like current
GMC Forwards (commercial trucks) that were designed, tested, & produced by Isuzu (in Japan) to
sell to consumers in the US? Isuzu has renowned quality & dependability in the world truck
market. Anyone in Africa or China or Malaysia driving Chevys (or heard of GM???) Now who's
making money off of who?
> For those extolling the U.S. made BMW's and Mercedes-Benz, they have not
> been a marketing success. When the removing effect that import duties
> had on the prices of these cars reduced them to the same price range as a
> Ford or Chevy, they are not expensive enough to appeal to the Yuppies
> that equate high price cars to saying I have made it. Nearly 50% of the
> price on an imported BMW or Mercedes is U.S. import duties. I always
> figured it took an absolute idiot to pay $20,000 in taxes on a $25,000
> car that was noisy, costly to maintain, and tended to ride like hell. Now heres something that makes some sense. As far as $20,000 tax, I dont think so, but
thats only opinion. But it is from my experience that a fairly well built American car will
probably outlast a european car in reliability. My friends who work on Euro cars tell me many
stories of seeing baby Benzes (& other euro nameplates) in the shop for differentials or head
jobs or transmission problems after 3-5 years. My '78 GMC pickup has over 130k on it & works
fine (note: this is supposedly a "cheaply" made domestic vehicle used for "work", unlike a
"precision engineered" european automobile). If a Made in USA vehicle with decent
quality/reliability is made, thats the one I'll go for (& there are some made by both Japanese &
US companies). As far as spending $20,000+ to get a european badge, unless I'm senile...
jwan
.
Frank Yang wrote:
>
> In article <4rklnn$k...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, sl...@primenet.com says...
> >
> >ri...@ritz.mordor.com (Chris Mauritz) wrote:
> >
> >>Personally, I *like* consumer reports reviews because:
> >
> >>(a) they *buy* the car being tested. They don't accept a
> >> "ringer" from the manufacturer.
> >>(b) they don't accept advertising. Period. Therefore, they're
> >> not as vulnerable to bullying from manufactuers with big ad
> >> budgets. Do you *honestly* think that Motor Trend, C/D, and
> >> others of that genre don't take that into account?
> >
> >>So you might not agree with their testing methods, but at
> >>least they are a bit more impartial than the vast majority
> >>of mainstream car rags.
> >
> >>Cheers,
> >
> >>Chris
> >>--
> >>Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
> >>ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
> >>Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
> >>201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451
> >
> >Comsumer Reports is fine if you want to buy a toaster. But if you want
> >to buy a car Mr. Mauritz, you ought to consider a real auto
> >publication such as Road and Track or any other good auto magazine.
> >car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
> >mind) and love Japanese.
> >
> >BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
> >down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
> >whatever else?
> >
>
> If the so-called "patriotism" is the only sales tactic left for American
> automakers, then I guess it's all over.
>
> How'bout driving a Toyota Camry down Route 66? Imported from Kentucky.
>
> A trend: The Japanese auto makers are moving the production here to make
> Americans happy, while the "patriotic" big-3 are moving to Canada and Mexico.
> Their excuses: "We are a global company now.... Canada and Mexico are in
> the trade pack...., etc. etc." The reality is less Americans are employeed
> by the big-3, and more Americans are working for "foreign" companies.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Frank Yang - Systems Engineer - Branch #55 - New York City
> CompuCom - 10100 N. Central Expressway - Dallas, Texas
Finally a person who makes sense.
I seem to get the idea that the US is ready to abandon American
workers but are willing to sell their products to US consumers. Anyone
smell fish?
jwan
CEG
The easiest way to solve the "problem" of Japanese cars in America is to
let them build them over here. I bought a 1995 Subaru Legacy AWD wagon
made in Indiana by Americans? It solved the problem as I see it, because
its the last fucking Subaru I will ever buy, had an 87 made in Japan that
ran for 8 years without a bit of trouble other than old age. This hunk
of captive imported shit is in the shop on a regular basis, I hate it and
I will never buy another one. See it solved the problem, let them make
them over here and they will soon be out of business. You can bet your
ass that the next 4WD vehicle I buy will be American-made by an American
company (Ford, Chevy, GMC or Jeep)
Bentley
Organization: National Brotherhood of Evil Geniussess
Distribution:
sl...@primenet.com wrote:
: Consumer Reports shouldn't even be included in a discussion about a GM
: car because they hate American (CR's Jeep Wrangler bashing comes to
: mind) and love Japanese.
Certainly! In every case, they hate American cars. I completely agree.
Well, except for the Buick Regal. They recommend that one. Oh yeah, and
the Chevy Lumina. Just those two. Oops, and the Dodge Intrepid. Make that
three. Ooops, forgot the Crown Vic. And the Explorer. And Ranger, sorry.
Oh yeah, Thunderbird, too. Ahem, and let's not forget the Windstar, Prizm,
Mark VIII, Cougar, Grand Marquis, Villager, Aurora, Bonneville, Grand
Prix, Saturn SC, LeSabre, and Olds 88. All recommended by CR.
But don't let this change your opinion, stick to your guns! CR hates all
American cars and loves Japanese ones! Well, except for the del Sol. And
the Passport. And the Rodeo. And, of course, the RX-7. Oh yeah, the
Galant and Mirage, can't forget those.. or the Swift, Tacoma, Tercel, SLX,
TL, Tracker, I30, Hombre, MPV, MX-3, 300GT, Eclipse, Mighty Max, Montero,
200SX, 240SX, Pathfinder, Nissan pickup, Esteem, Sidekick, X90, 4Runner,
Paseo, RAV4, or T100. Other than those 31 models, CR loves ALL Japanese
products. So you are right!
: Just my O.02
And worth every penny, I might add!
: BTW, When was the last time you felt like much of a patriot crusing
: down Route 66 or Highway 61 in your Honda, Toyota, Nissian, or
: whatever else?
Never drove a Nissian. Some more Jap Crap?
Ruff
>There is no doubt that the Japanese can't make a truck. Notice in any
>Toyota ad, they don't show the truck doing actual work. Ford, GM, and
>Dodge show their trucks hauling stuff, and being used for work. Could
>this be because the Japanese trucks can't stand up to pulling a 6,000
>pound trailer on a daily basis, or because their truck couldn't pull
>four more trucks at idle speed (Dodge 1500 V8), or being known as the
>longest lasting trucks on the planet (Chevy), etc.
One feature I do notice about the jap trucks is the ever moving body
parts, ever get behind one at a red light and start noticing the way
the gaps in the tail gate are lop sided, the hood is another area that
seems to move around, and check out the fit between the front of the
doors and the fender, after a couple of years jap trucks are all out
of shape, they just don't grow old gracefully. A kid that lives
across the street from a friend of my is an off roader, I think he has
a toyota and it has big tires and all, on any given day you'll see him
with one wheel parked on a bank in his front yard and he's underneath
with a come-along trying to straighten out the frame! My friend said
it's his 3rd truck of that kind, talking about a glutton. Not me man,
I rode in a nissan on a bumpy road a couple years ago, I don't think
my kidneys have recovered yet! I won't get in one anymore, they can
have `em.
Bentley
Kanda Computers and Network Systems (ka...@frontiernet.net) wrote:
: No it would be the Honda assembled in Ohio of mostly Japanese parts, The
: in Illinois of mostly Japanese parts. These plants employ americans at much
: less than the going rate for this industry in general.
Can't speak for the Nissan, but the Camry and Accord are over 50% domestic
parts, and the number goes up every year as quality domestic suppliers
are found. Care to define 'most?'
Bentley
Organization: National Brotherhood of Evil Geniussess
Distribution:
Kanda Computers and Network Systems (ka...@frontiernet.net) wrote:
: In article <4rkmch$c...@usenet10.interramp.com>, fy...@compucom.com wrote:
:
: >May I ask what exactly the Japanese government do to keep American cars out?
: >I've heard people keep saying "The Japanese setup trade barriers for American
: >cars," but none of them can show some proof.
:
: How about setting taraffs and taxes so high that a typical $20,000 imported
: automobile costs 2 or 3 times that at the retail level.
That would be an example. Too bad there are no tariffs on imported cars in
Japan.
There is, however a 25% tariff on imported trucks in the US. Interesting,
eh?
: Do you suppose it has anything to do with the real issues like foreign
: ownership and goverment subsidies of industries like autos, steel, and
: electronics? There is much to talk about. The problem is the Japanese won't
: discuss these issues because without the unfair advantage the government gives
: them they would loss ther home market to foreign competition from america and
: europe.
No, the problem is few people know what the hell they are talking about.
You, for instance.
: Hmmmm.... interesting. Please account for why the number is so low when we
: import millions of cars from their country. It must be very easy to bring
: imports into Japan right? It must be very easy to open a Chevy dealership in
: Japan right? I bet the Japanese government would give you a loan to help you
: right?
So I can get a loan from the US government for setting up a Nissan
dealership? Cool, where do I get the forms?
july
This whole discussion is useless.
No.1 There is no longer any such animal as a 100% or even 75% american
made car.
No 2 Most of the Japanese and German cars sold in American are made in
America. In fact we export Toyota's and Honda from here to other
countries.
No. 3 No one really cares except gear heads or those who are closed
mined.
Just for your information. I owned a 85 Ford Escort (w a Diesel
Engine) and an 94 Saturn SL@. Both cars were bought new and still
running very well.
Wayne Moses
>The fact is no Asian car maker has ever contributed a single innovation
>to the automobile. Everything they build or have built is based upon
>primarily U.S. patents and a few European Patents.
I don't believe that this is true in the development of engines, where
the Japanese are clearly the equal if not superior to US manufacturers
in the design and continual refinement of all types of engines (except
maybe diesels) from engines used for racing (Honda, Toyota, etc. used in
Indy and F1 car racing) to the common everyday road-going engines.
I would argue that the Big Three do not know how to make/package smaller
displacement 4-cylinder engines for the majority of cars we see on the
road. Their engines typically make less horsepower and are less fuel
efficient, while managing to sound and feel quite unrefined. Compare
with any of the 4 bangers from Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi ... even
Hyundai. These engines have a higher specific output, are
smoother/quieter (= more refined) and have better fuel economy. Talking
6-cylinder and 8-cylinder engines ... just consider the sixes in the
Nissan Maxima and Toyota Camry/Avalon and eights as in the Lexus LS400
and Infinty Q45.
And there is the Mazda Millenia with its remarkable Miller cycle engine
.. which Big Three car maker has similar?
Hehehe ... I was reading the latest Car and Driver online re: the new
Taurus SHO and its engine. The previous engine -- Yamaha DOHC 24-valve
V-6 -- was apparently a better engine for this car than the new Ford
8-cylinder model in spite of the greater displacement and slightly
greater output. Go figure.
Surely there must be some engineering innovation going on here. The
Japanese might not have invented the internal combustion engine, but in
my books they have invented many of the techiques going into these
engines, making them uniquely their own design. The fact that they can
and do package these good engines in their cars while keeping costs
reasonable is also testament to their innovation when it comes to
manufacturing and keeping costs down. That is an important innovation
in and of itself, especially in the face if of the strong yen.
Just my 2 cents worth ... take it as you will,
Wayne Moses, NB, CANADA.
Chris Mauritz
Wayne Moses (wmo...@mi.net) wrote:
: Hehehe ... I was reading the latest Car and Driver online re: the new
: Taurus SHO and its engine. The previous engine -- Yamaha DOHC 24-valve
: V-6 -- was apparently a better engine for this car than the new Ford
: 8-cylinder model in spite of the greater displacement and slightly
: greater output. Go figure.
Actually, this engine was designed by Ford and just manufactured by
Yamaha. I agree (and so do many Mustang enthusiasts) that the new
4.6l Ford V8 is a dog.
Frank Yang
In article <31DEC5...@ucla.edu>, jw...@ucla.edu says...
>
>Frank Yang wrote:
>>
>> --
>> If the so-called "patriotism" is the only sales tactic left for American
>> automakers, then I guess it's all over.
>>
>> How'bout driving a Toyota Camry down Route 66? Imported from Kentucky.
>>
>> A trend: The Japanese auto makers are moving the production here to make
>> Americans happy, while the "patriotic" big-3 are moving to Canada and
Mexico.
>> Their excuses: "We are a global company now.... Canada and Mexico are in
>> the trade pack...., etc. etc." The reality is less Americans are
employeed
>> by the big-3, and more Americans are working for "foreign" companies.
>>
>> - Frank
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Frank Yang - Systems Engineer - Branch #55 - New York City
>> CompuCom - 10100 N. Central Expressway - Dallas, Texas
>
>
>Finally a person who makes sense.
> I seem to get the idea that the US is ready to abandon American
>workers but are willing to sell their products to US consumers. Anyone
>smell fish?
>jwan
--
Thank you.
I smell dead fishes wrapped in newspaper in front of Ford, GM, and Chrysler's
doors.
- Frank
Saturn '95 SL1 Gold - Everything except sunroof