Dont Freeze in your VW! HEAT SOLUTIONS!
rsmc...@hotmail.com
Winter is upon us.. I have a 1972 super beetle..
Here are different solutions to keep you from freezing this winter:
1) A company called Solutions (mail order catalog) sales a battery
operated heated blanket. Similar to the ones you use when mommy used to
tuck you in. I call and requested a catalog but cannot find the 800# any
more. If you are interested I can email you the information once I
receive it.
2) A company called Northern has 6-7 different propane heaters in their
catalog. They are not made for volkswagens, as much as they are for
outdoorsmen. They easily could find a place in your VW to keep you warm
however. The prices range from $50 - $300 for the different models. To
get a catalog call 800-533-5545.
3) Danmark offers a $30 heater that plugs into a cigarette lighter.
Granted, you are not going to get the warmth of a 1997 Ford Tarus, but I
use it and am very satisfied w/ this. Many people tell how these
products are useless. This is because they are not using them properly.
The secret is to run the heater for about 15-20 mins, then turn it off
for about 5 minutes. Then start again. Having these things on for more
than 30-45 minutes will cause these things to short out. To contact
Danmark, call 800-729-9000.
4) If you dont have a cigarette lighter or your generator isnt strong
enough for this, JC Whitney offers a product called the "Jump Master"
which is intended to be used for Jumping dead batters. However, it can
also power most small 12v accessories. It retails for $129.99. Call JC
Whitney at 312-431-6102. I think they also have for sale another item
similar to this that is much smaller and cheaper but dont have any
details.
5) Heavy gloves, ski mask, Heavy jacket, and thick socks.
I hope this has helped. If so, drop me a note..
Seeya,
Ryan McCain
1972 Super Beetle
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jim Mais
Battery-operated aux heat is a feasible solution--as long as you don't
try to heat the whole car! The electric blanket kind of thing
mentioned is a good idea.
My favorite was an electric vest (home-made) that plugs into 12 volts.
Keeps the torso toasty warm in below-zero weather. Seems to me
J.,C.Whitney had a similar product used by motorcyclists.
Speedy jim
con...@sisna.com
Has the thought of actually FIXING your heater ever crossed your mind? I
have driven in sub 0 weather plenty of times, and if it is working
properly, there is no problem except for occasional window fogging which
anti-fog cures.
Fix the problem, not the symptom! I see this all the time. If you have a
headache because your sister is banging you over the head with a frying
pan..
the symptom fix is to take an Advil....(head doesn't hurt anymore so
everything is ok according to their outlook on things).
the SOLUTION fix is to get her to stop hitting you over the head.
John
People with high oil temps often take the same approach to high oil
temps.. the oil temp is a symptom of other problems! (adding a cooler is
NOT a solution)
Psych714
These suggestions sound okay, but I would warn against the propane heaters
unless properly ventalated (the exhaust). Such a move could poison (YES!) you
and your loved ones (the combustions molecules given off by propane are not
safe to breathe in- duh!).
Just a thought,
Ric
<psyc...@aol.com>
John Henry
con...@sisna.com wrote:
>
> Has the thought of actually FIXING your heater ever crossed your mind? I
> have driven in sub 0 weather plenty of times, and if it is working
> properly, there is no problem except for occasional window fogging which
> anti-fog cures.
>
> Fix the problem, not the symptom! I see this all the time.
AMEN John!!!!, I was just about to start lecturing myself!!!!
--
VISIT THE "BUGSHOP" AT http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/4000/
John H.
john...@sprintmail.com
verify "reply to address" if used
Michael Alan Thebo
con...@sisna.com wrote:
> Has the thought of actually FIXING your heater ever crossed your mind? I
> have driven in sub 0 weather plenty of times, and if it is working
> properly, there is no problem except for occasional window fogging which
> anti-fog cures.
>
> headache because your sister is banging you over the head with a frying
> pan..
I second this. I've been in quite a few bugs that had the heater boxes,
or other parts of the system rusted out and THEY were COLD, my 64 baja
has no rust on the boxes, or channels, and the cable and flaps work
great- even with my hood seel missing (slight breeze enters around
radio!) my heat is NICE AND WARM after around 5 minutes on a 20 some
degree day.
If you HAVE to do something non-stock with it (ie you live in Alaska or
wherever) then there is a company that markets a fan system which takes
warm air from the passenger compartment and recirculates it through the
heater boxes making for much warmer air and a variable speed fan. You do
have to cut two holes in the firewall though which makes me feel a bit
leary...
Mike Thebo
mth...@indiana.edu
Access Systems
In rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled rsmc...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Winter is upon us.. I have a 1972 super beetle..
> Here are different solutions to keep you from freezing this winter:
> 1) A company called Solutions (mail order catalog) sales a battery
> operated heated blanket. Similar to the ones you use when mommy used to
> 2) A company called Northern has 6-7 different propane heaters in their
> 3) Danmark offers a $30 heater that plugs into a cigarette lighter.
> 4) If you dont have a cigarette lighter or your generator isnt strong
> 5) Heavy gloves, ski mask, Heavy jacket, and thick socks.
tried em all (except propane, decided I preferred breathing) and # 5
worked best, ?
broke down, found an Eberspchracher (sp) pulled my hair out getting it
in and working, finally HEAT!
gloves off, jacket open in my van with window cracked an inch in 0
degree weather!!!
> I hope this has helped. If so, drop me a note..
if you want warm, get gas!
Bob
> Seeya,
> Ryan McCain
> 1972 Super Beetle
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Raymond T. Lowe
I ran my 75 SB through 6 winters in confort because of the following;
1. my FI exhaust and heating system were kept properly maintained. FI
exhausts systems route all 4 cylinders through heater boxs instead
of just two on the older setup, so that helped. Even the older ones
work welled IF maintained.
2. the cooling flaps and thermostat were in place and properly adjusted.
Some dork that rebuilt my first engine stripped all of it off and
didn't reinstall - boy, was I pissed. The thing grenaded anyway...
3. I installed a 115V Temro interior heater and an 200 watt strip
heater that I mounted flush to the case (drilled/tapped 6mm studs).
The Temro was mounted on top of a 3" metal box to act as a spacer
and this was mounted in the center of the rear parcel tray. This
way the air flow was blown forward. I simply plugged it in 45 min
prior to departure and the car was defrosted and toasty when I got
in.
A cold ass promotes ingenuity...
RT
--
To send e-mail, please remove "no.spam." from address.
Jeffry Johnston
: Some dork that rebuilt my first engine...
: RT
Hey! How did you know that I was the one that rebuilt that engine?
My '67 bug has no heated boxes, hoses, flaps etc. (a hood seal? :)
#5 [was: dressing warm] was part of my answer to the cold,
I also sealed the dash and all the holes I could find with that brown foam
stuff that you get at the hardware store for sealing electric outlets. My
fuse block that I made is now where it used to be except it's now inside
the trunk making it possible to seal that hole. Sitting still driving
that bug in the winter for two+ hours to work before day break was cold
anyway. "If you're cold it's because you ain't got enough clothes on and
you aren't working hard enough" -Alvin The speaker hole was first covered
with a piece of non-corregated cardboard that was spray painted flat
black. Getting rid of the drafts did more good than anything.
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
'67 bug "the junk heap" uh... it's not stock?
Raymond T. Lowe
In article <64md99$e...@nntp02.primenet.com>, jef...@primenet.com says...
>
>: Some dork that rebuilt my first engine...
>: RT
>Hey! How did you know that I was the one that rebuilt that engine?
I owned it and took it to a repair shop when that happened. The guy
(can't call him a mechanic) stripped out the flaps, linkages, and
thermostat WITHOUT my permission. Turns out the guy developed quite
a reputation for shoddy work. Just another one of lifes expen$ive
lessons...
e.schu...@worldnet.att.net
This article attempts tell how to use Stewart Warner gas heaters in
VWs. Stewart Warner has been selling gas heaters for cars and planes
for over 60 years. During the 60s and early 70s they were sold in
versions specifically tailored for VW Bugs and Buses. Occasionally they
show up at swapmeets in numerous incarnations and in various stages of
completeness. If you are lucky enough to find one that fits your
vehicle you are all set. This article is addressed to those not so
lucky.
First a few words on the joys of gas heater ownership. They have a
number of advantages: They put out lots of heat. The heat comes on
right now, no waiting for the engine to warm up. You can have heat
without the engine running. The temperature of the vehicle interior is
regulated, it doesn’t go up and down as your bus goes over hill and
dale. They are mysterious, almost no one has experienced one
operational, nobody seems to know how they work and they all think they
are bombs just waiting for ignition. Actually, while they are very
effective, they are pretty pedestrian. No more complex and working on
the same principle as home-heating oil burners. A small quantity of
gasoline from the car’s tank is sprayed into an enclosed chamber along
with air from a blower. The enclosed chamber has an exhaust outlet for
combustion products. A second blower draws in fresh air over the
exterior of the sealed chamber, with the combustion inside, and pushes
the heated air into the passenger compartment. There is no physical
path between either the gasoline or the combustion products and the
passenger compartment. Temperature control is achieved by turning the
spray of gasoline on and off under control of a thermostat located in
the heated air stream into the passenger compartment.
Typically gas heaters are located in the trunk of a Bug or in the engine
compartment of a bus. One interesting exception is the engine "heat
booster" located under the car over the transmission, on some Type IV
models. The "heat booster" takes warm air from the engine in the
conventional bug fashion and adds additional heat. These Type IV
heaters are quite common and are manufactured for VW by Ebanspacher in
Germany. Ebanspacher also makes a variety of conventional gas heaters
for vehicles, other than for the Type IV, however they are quite rare in
the USA. They are common in Europe however and sometimes show up on
VWs and Porsches imported by US servicemen. The only US vehicles that
came with Ebanspacher heaters was the early 70s VW Thing. None of the
Ebanspacher parts like spark plugs, combustion blowers, etc. are
compatible with Stewart Warner heaters. Two exceptions are the
electronic temperature controller and the ignition coil. The temperature
controller esthetically matches the other switches in Bugs and is
technically a very slick piece. Much more sophisticated than the simple
flex cable operated bi-metal switch used in the Corvair heaters.
The best source for Stewart Warner heaters suitable for use in the VW is
early 60s Corvairs on which they were standard equipment. The heaters
are located in the trunk on the right side and are easy to find in junk
yards for low bux. A Corvair installation consists of three
assemblies. The main heater, the combustion blower and the temperature
control unit located in the passenger compartment. The cable operated
temperature control unit is the upper left unit in the picture
corvair.jpg. The components are all wired together so the pieces are
easy to find. Expect to pay about $20 for the whole thing. One
additional item required to use the Corvair heater as-is is an electric
fuel pump. The best source for these is from a rotary powered Mazda.
This pump is a 12 volt electronic type usually located on the right side
of the trunk under the mat.
For a bus installation the stock Corvair unit is not too bad just as it
comes out of the donor car. Just hook the fuel pump power lead to the
12 volt side of the ignition coil. The original Corvair installation
used the engine fuel pump to provide fuel for the heater. This scheme
could be used on a bus also but that will eliminate the possibility of
enjoying heat with the engine off. Note that most fuel injection pumps
provide too much pressure. About 5 PSI from a typical pump designed
for use with carbs is about right.
The hot ticket (pun intended) is to use the electronic temperature
controller and thermistor from the Ebanspacher heater used in the Type
IV. The temperature controller is easy to find, it is behind the knob
with the green center and heat symbol on it, mounted on the dash of a
411. Remove it and the connector with about 6 inches of wire. It is
the small white box above the combustion blower in the picture
corvair.jpg. The thermistor that is the temperature sensor for the
temperature controller is a bit more difficult to locate. It is located
in the heater unit under the car. It has two wires connected to it and
is held in place with a clamp that can be loosened with a single screw.
Its white plastic base is about 1 inch in diameter and once removed you
can see the thermistor inside a small protective cage. Rescue it and
about 6 inches of its associated wires.
The way it works is that the thermistor is mounted somewhere in a duct
that carries the hot air coming out of the heater. Where the most
convenient place is will depend on the ducting arrangement in the
installation. The thermistor connects to the temperature controller.
Also connected to the temperature controller is battery power and
vehicle ground. The output of the temperature controller goes to a
relay that switches power to the ignition coil, fuel pump and fuel
control solenoid. The fuel control solenoid is the cad plated can on
one end of the combustion chamber. It has one or two Fast-On terminals
on it. The insulated terminal is hot and the one connected to the round
metal cover is ground. When the control knob clicks in the extreme
counter-clockwise direction everything is off. Turning the knob
clockwise will first turn the fresh air blower on and the center of the
knob will illuminate to indicate that the heater is on. At some point
of advancing the knob in the clockwise direction the heater will turn
on. The heater will cycle around this temperature. If the knob is
advanced the heater will cycle about a higher interior vehicle
temperature.
A Stewart Warner heater with Ebenspacher controller wiring diagram
(wiring.jpg) is attached. None of the wiring is critical since the
currents are modest. The two relays I used are the Bosch types that look
like a 1 inch cube and are plentiful in dead Rabbits. The whole system
is fused with an 8 Amp fuse.
A couple of points related to safety are important. The bi-metal switch
located in a ceramic block on the side of the heater is a safety device
that prevents overheating that would accompany a loss of fresh air. If
the main chamber is in danger of overheating the thermal switch opens
and interrupts power to the fuel solenoid. Be sure to connect this
device. The exhaust from the heater must be led to a point where it can
never, never be drawn back into the fresh air intake for the heater.
This is not too hard to accomplish if the car is moving but may be very
hard to do if the heater is operated in a vehicle that is stationary,
like waiting at a traffic light. This point cannot be overemphasized,
the gas chamber is for bad guys. The exhaust pipe I used for my heater
was flexible stainless steel tube 1 ¼ inches in diameter obtained from
J.C. Whitney. The tube is fastened to the heater outlet by brazing the
last inch from the lower pipe outlet on a bug muffler to the end of the
flex and securing it using the packing and clamp from the Bug exhaust .
This pipe outlets at a point just ahead of the right rear tire. There
is a small rubber drain tube in the bottom of the combustion chamber.
In any installation make sure the drain remains on the bottom and that
it exits outside the vehicle. Its function is to drain out fuel that
would accumulate if the system were operated with a failed ignition
system. Another interesting point is that the heater will have a
difficult time blowing warm air into a Bug if you don’t leave a place
for the cool air to escape. Crack a wind wing when the heater is on.
The air coming out of a gas heater is pretty hot. The ducting I use for
both the heating air blower (2 ½ inch ID) and the combustion air blower
(1 ¼ inch ID) is silicone impregnated fiber glass. This is the same
stuff often used for Bug heater ducts. It can be seen in the picture
install.jpg.
A couple of notes on my particular installation. An additional
advantage of the gas heater for me was the transfer of weight away from
the rear of the car, by eliminating the very heavy exhaust-to-air heat
exchangers, to the front of the car. I also replaced the large Stewart
Warner 12 volt coil with the much smaller one from an Ebenspacher unit.
The function of this article is not to provide a step-by-step
instruction manual for a heater installation but rather as an
inspiration for others to enjoy the benefits of these nifty devices.
With the exception of the electrical stuff most everything else can be
figured out by inspection. I have provided a few pictures for
identifying components and showing the installation in my Baja Bug.
Baja.jpg, interior.jpg, & corvair.jpg. Also included is a wiring
diagram (diagram.jpg) for a system using a 411 controller with a SW
heater. Several articles on gas heaters have appeared in DB& HVWs
magazine over the years. Has a worthwhile article and the 4-83 and 7-83
issues have letters covering conversion of 6 volt units to 12 volts. I
would be glad to answer any questions regarding the operation or
installation of gas heaters in VWs. e.schu...@worldnet.att.net
Bugme5
Hey guys, If you want to be WARM, Gas Heaters are the ONLY way to go.... The
fact is if your driving is all highway, most bugs will do ok. If you are
stuck in city traffic (like for an hour) cut your frozen toes off and forget
it... GAS HEAT. My first new car was a new 65 beetle and it was ok most of
the time. I always cracked the vent to prevent fogging, kept max defroster,
and kept the RPM up. But when stuck in traffic - going nowhere - I once
considered setting fire to my lunch to keep warm! My brother had a gas
heater in his new beetle and it was fantastic!
Toby Erkson
Obviously you have never driven a Squareback in sub 0 weather...
My system is in very good condition but getting her warmed up is entirely
different than a small Bug (probably a couple dozen Bus owners out there
saying 'AMEN!' as well...). Now that I have a ragtop keeping her warm isn't
easy (small sacrifice and worth every inch). The VW heater solution does
leave something to be desired for us 'larger boned VWs' :) I've been eyeing a
gas heater for a while, just need to get some cash.
The high oil temp is another issue that is usually not fully thought out but
there are those big engines out there that do require the added cooling
capabilities of an external cooler.
--
Toby Erkson, air_coo...@pobox.com
'72 VW Squareback 1.6L bored and stroked to 2.0L
'75 Porsche 914 1.8L
Portland, Oregon, http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8501/
con...@sisna.com wrote in article <8796037...@dejanews.com>...
> Has the thought of actually FIXING your heater ever crossed your mind? I
> have driven in sub 0 weather plenty of times, and if it is working
> properly, there is no problem except for occasional window fogging which
> anti-fog cures.
> ...
> John
>
> People with high oil temps often take the same approach to high oil
> temps.. the oil temp is a symptom of other problems! (adding a cooler is
> NOT a solution)
>
con...@sisna.com
In article <01bcf3b9$4a71c2c0$81a18686@terkson-desk>,
"Toby Erkson" <air_coo...@p5box.com> wrote:
>
> Obviously you have never driven a Squareback in sub 0 weather...
>
> My system is in very good condition but getting her warmed up is entirely
> different than a small Bug (probably a couple dozen Bus owners out there
> saying 'AMEN!' as well...).
I still say that almost every aircooled VW I have seen with poor heat,
has had REASONS for it other than the factory design. Example: the "new"
heater boxes out there (the cheap ones) do NOT even come close to putting
out the same amount of heat as the factory ones did. You can FEEL the
weight difference.
I do admit that a gas heater is VERY nice (I have had a couple),
especially since I could start the gas heater withOUT running the engine;
preheating the car before I started it to drive off.
John
Eternity23
I'm going to try and design a small electrical only system using stuff
from J.C. Whitney....if I fail, I'll let you all know....if I succeed, I'll
give you all an itemization of what I bought, how I did it, and how much
time/money it took. Wish me luck!
-Sean Jordan
(The goal is to keep it under $60)
John Henry
Eternity23 wrote:
>
> I'm going to try and design a small electrical only system using stuff
> from J.C. Whitney....if I fail, I'll let you all know....if I succeed, I'll
> give you all an itemization of what I bought, how I did it, and how much
> time/money it took. Wish me luck!
>
If you are so inclined, please forward me the details and results of you
experiment. I'd like to know how it works out...
--
John Henry-
'85 VW Cabriolet Wolfsburg- fully armed
'57 VW Beetle- legally separated (from pan)
'95 Merc Sable Wagon- "Comfortably Numb"
Visit the new "BugShop" at:
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/4000/
John Connolly
you know, I've kept my mouth shut on one aspect of "no heat" for too
long.. I can't stand it anymore...
the CURE for cold air blowing thru the dashboard is NOT to stuff
insulation and shit everywhere you can.... it's VERY simple....
1) make sure your heater system blows well, it's nice and clear.... if
air is BLOWN into the car thru the heater boxes, VERY little cold air
can get into the passenger compartment... if you have holes in the floor
and all your seals are blown out, you have to fix this first.... if the
cabin is pressurized, cold air has a VERY difficult time making it in
there.....
2) go to the hardware store and buy some 3/8" door weatherstripping
tape... the stuff with one sticky side. stick it to the lip of your
HOOD, all the way around. When the hood is closed, it SEALS TIGHT, you
just have to make sure your fresh air vent isn't missing, or the seal
blown out there too! this also doesn't work with a bent up hood.
I have done this and never had ANY problem staying warm in -20 F
temps...
John
MAGURAN MARC L
Hey Sean, some advice on the electrical heaters, i have one of those back
seat heaters that is supposed to heat up the back of a van. i installed
the heater my 73 bus and could feel any heat. so i called compamy and they
said that the bus or the bug did not put out enough juice to allow the
heater to work the right way. they said you need 75amps. if you find one
that works let me know
marc
73bus
74bug
On 20 Nov 1997, Eternity23 wrote:
> I'm going to try and design a small electrical only system using stuff
> from J.C. Whitney....if I fail, I'll let you all know....if I succeed, I'll
> give you all an itemization of what I bought, how I did it, and how much
> time/money it took. Wish me luck!
>
Rob Boardman
Eternity23 wrote:
>
> I'm going to try and design a small electrical only system using stuff
> from J.C. Whitney....if I fail, I'll let you all know....if I succeed, I'll
> give you all an itemization of what I bought, how I did it, and how much
> time/money it took. Wish me luck!
>
> -Sean Jordan
>
> (The goal is to keep it under $60)
Like John Spon says in his post, you'll be lucky if you notice any
difference. The standard heater system in a beetle puts out something
like 2.5 kilowatts. That's around 200 amps on 12 volts, giving
your 50 amp/hour battery (don't confuse amp/hours with the Cold Cranking
Amp CCA rating which is MUCH higher than 50) a life of maybe
15 minutes (about 20 minutes with the generator at full charge).
For $60 I doubt you'd get much more than a 100watt (8 amp)
plug-in-the-lighter-socket type of device.
Try getting the standard heater working properly first. The
VW was designed to be able to sit outside in the street in
a German winter, then start and run, and warm up, all on
it's own. (This was one of the primary directives to
Mr Porsche in 1936, when private garages were not common,
and this car was being designed for the 'common' person.)
I lived in Canberra (one of Australia's colder spots) for
3 years, and in winter my (well adjusted) VW would happily
toast my toes, and defrost the windscreen at the same time.
In Adelaide's warmer climate, I have to partly shut the heater
or shut the floor vents after about 10km in winter, or I'll
cook my toes - through my shoes!
Do you still have your engine cooling flaps in the fan shroud.
You should ALWAYS have these there, but taking them out will
make a big difference in cabin heating in winter, as the
thermostat and flaps allows more air into the cabin by shutting
off some of the total air supply to the engine cooling until
the engine - and exhaust heat exchangers - are thoroughly
warmed up.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 236,000 miles on it's original engine)
David Brodbeck
In article <01bcf604$b8e97160$81a18686@terkson-desk>,
"Toby Erkson" <air_coo...@p5box.com> dispatched into the ether:
> A hairdryer and a ceramic unit are different. For one thing, the ceramic
> units are more efficient. Do the experiment and tell us what happened. Ben
> Franklin did, what?, about 100 or more experiments with different wires before
> he completely developed the light bulb. Sean, don't listen to small, close
> minded people, just listen to yourself and do it. Fail or succeed you will
> learn more than the pessimists ever could (Joe C. is doing it with the T4
> engine upgrade, I did it with a generator to alternator conversion for the T3,
> you could be next).
--> All electric heaters are about 100% efficient. All the electricity that
goes in, comes out as heat. (Well, except for the small amount that comes
out as light.) Think about it...what does the wasted electricity in other
electrical widgets end up as? Yup -- heat. Even those light bulbs -- a
standard incandescent bulb is more efficient as a heater than as a lamp.
10% of the electricity that comes in, goes out as light -- the other 90%
goes out as heat.
(Your weak grasp of history is something I won't bother correcting, since
it has little bearing on how to heat a Volksie.)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere.
Bill Crick
Toby Erkson wrote:
>
> A hairdryer and a ceramic unit are different. For one thing, the ceramic
> units are more efficient. Do the experiment and tell us what happened. Ben
> Franklin did, what?, about 100 or more experiments with different wires before
> he completely developed the light bulb. Sean, don't listen to small, close
> minded people, just listen to yourself and do it. Fail or succeed you will
> learn more than the pessimists ever could (Joe C. is doing it with the T4
> engine upgrade, I did it with a generator to alternator conversion for the T3,
> you could be next).
>
> '72 VW Squareback 1.6L bored and stroked to 2.0L
> '75 Porsche 914 1.8L
> Portland, Oregon, http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8501/
Please don't shoot your mouth off about things you know nothing about!
1. All electrical heaters are 100% efficient. It is a resistor, it turns
all (ignoring the odd phonon, and photon) the electrical energy that
it uses
into heat.
2. Thomas Edison was the person who perfected the incadescent light
bulb, and
the problem was not efficiency, it was life span, and robustness.
2a. Ben Frankiln flew a kite in a lightening storm to show lightening
was
a form of electricity. And he's damn lucky he didn't get fried!
3. Don't listen to close minded people is good advice, but I also
suggest you listen to people who are _trained_ in the subject matter.
Learn from the mistakes of other, as you'll never live long enough to
make them all yourself.
And last bit of advice. Learn from the learnings, and successes of
others
and you'll have more successes yourself
Jeez!
Bill Crick
76 Type II/IV/VII
keep@nospam
On 20 Nov 1997 22:49:52 GMT, "Toby Erkson" <air_coo...@p5box.com>
wrote:
>A hairdryer and a ceramic unit are different. For one thing, the ceramic
>units are more efficient.
Wrong, X, Incorrect, Start Again!
Do the experiment and tell us what happened. Ben
>Franklin did, what?, about 100 or more experiments with different wires before
>he completely developed the light bulb.
Not worthy of comment
>Sean, don't listen to small, close minded people, just listen to yourself
>and do it. Fail or succeed you will
>learn more than the pessimists ever could
Being a degreed, practicing engineer with my own business has taught
me several things:
1) You're right - experiementation, even resulting in failure, has
value because you learn.
2) Not accepting conventional wisdom has led to many advances.
but it has also tought me other things:
3) People do not deserve derision simply because they disagree with
me.
4) You can't argue with Physics.
5) Never make an emotional response in a technical debate.
6) Don't personalize things. Challenge the facts, not the presenter.
7) Make sure you understand what the other fella is trying to say. If
you can't, the onus is on you to do that before flaming.
8) No matter how right it _feels_, it may still be WRONG.
Your response here is an absolutely classic example of what not to do.
It should be used to teach others. If this were a business situation,
you would NEVER again enjoy credibility with any of the participants.
As a matter of fact, you'll have an uphill battle on this NG, if you
posess enough self-respect to try.
You, sir suffer perhaps the most singularly acute case of
cranio-rectal inversion I've run across on this NG yet. Chill out or
get lost.
John Spohn
'70 Type 265 LHD
Crew Cab Pickup
Dave Hall
Hey John,
We're all on the same side. Maybe Toby meant 'effective' not 'efficient',
which to engineers and physicists is a specific word meaning the fraction of
the energy supplied that is converted to the type of energy required (ie
heat), and is virtually 100% for most types of electrical heater.
I found out as a student that a fan-heater in my garrett flat was more
effective than a radiant fire-bar in keeping warm without spending a fortune
because I was only heating the air not the furniture.
A Beetle should be able to keep warm if everything is working OK, even in
sub zero conditions, but a Bus has no chance. The original thirties design
was helped considerably by re-heating the engine cooling air before
circulating it inside the car (non-fresh-air system). I guess they didn't
have traffic jams then, so you didn't have to stay still and freeze!
Later systems needed more efficient heat-exchangers so more heat was
extracted from the exhaust gases. Look at the late Type 3 system of finned
heat exchangers on all four exhaust manifold pipes
to see what VW needed to do with the Squareback (Variant to me!) to keep me
warm (which it still can't if sitting in traffic for a long time!). The
Type 4 had to have a gas (petrol) heater to manage this while stationary.
The most hopeful arrangement for a Bus without using a gas heater is to
recirculate the heated air from the cabin back through the heater boxes.
These systems are available for both Bus and Beetle (in the UK at any rate)
and work reasonably well in fairly cold weather, but I doubt even that is
enough for a Bus in extreme cold, when the only answer is an Eberspacher
is that B2 in the US?) gas (petrol) heater.
A few quick calculations show that the 3kg of air in a typical Beetle could
be heated up 20 degrees C (or 36 degrees F) by a 100Watt heater in around 10
minutes with no other heat supplied and assuming no heat was absorbed by the
car (not very realistic). Electrical heating alone could not raise the
temperature for coat-off comfort, but electrical demisting and a waft of
warm air on exposed face and hands might make for more comfortable motoring.
I hope this is a positive contribution to this debate.
--
Da...@spam.me.nothallvw.clara.co.uk
Please delete "spam.me.not" when replying!
Check out the VW Type 3 & 4 Club website
at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/
for great pics, news and technical advice.
keep@[NO SPAM]edgenet.net wrote in message
<3475de7c....@news.supernews.com>...
>On 20 Nov 1997 22:49:52 GMT, "Toby Erkson" <air_coo...@p5box.com>
>wrote:
>
>>A hairdryer and a ceramic unit are different. For one thing, the ceramic
>>units are more efficient.
>Wrong, X, Incorrect, Start Again!
clipped
keep@nospam
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:01:18 -0000, "Dave Hall"
<da...@spam.me.nothallvw.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>Hey John,
8< [snip]
>Electrical heating alone could not raise the
>temperature for coat-off comfort, but electrical demisting and a waft of
>warm air on exposed face and hands might make for more comfortable motoring.
This was precisely my point regards defining goals in my first post,
if your view of the thread goes back that far. And for that matter,
the bulk of the susequent one to which you more directly refer
emphasized the need and benefit of thinking "outside the box".
I am against flaming because it suppresses the conversation, but when
folk with minds too small to retain basic historical facts jump my
shit, it cannot go unchallenged. I did not argue that he give up just
consider his true objective before starting or spending money that
might be better directed.
>I hope this is a positive contribution to this debate.
It is, as were mine (at least by intent)
Toby Erkson
Oh wow, did I mess up or what?! I never have liked history and didn't have to
take it in college so I didn't but that doesn't really excuse my lack of basic
history so I deserve all of the flames (boy, I am really, really
embarrassed!). I did know it was Edison, but Franklin's kite flying stunt was
stuck in my mind... Dave, thanks for understanding, effective *is* what I
meant.
My response was written in emotion and I should've calmed down more. Others
take heed because there are those who love to flame. By the way, my email
address is 'air_coo...@pobox.com'. Please send all history flames there
as there isn't need to post them in the NG. And, yes, I will read them and
reply if you want.
Toby "needs a dictionary and a history book" Erkson
air_coo...@pobox.com
'72 VW Squareback 1.6L bored and stroked to 2.0L
'75 Porsche 914 1.8L
Portland, Oregon, http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8501/
Toby Erkson <air_coo...@p5box.com> wrote in article
<01bcf604$b8e97160$81a18686@terkson-desk>...
> A hairdryer and a ceramic unit are different. For one thing, the ceramic
> units are more efficient. Do the experiment and tell us what happened. Ben
> Franklin did, what?, about 100 or more experiments with different wires
before
> he completely developed the light bulb...blah blah blah...
tara...@gmail.com
Not a matter of fixing...the old ones just didn't heat.
On Saturday, November 15, 1997 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-7, con...@sisna.com wrote:
> Has the thought of actually FIXING your heater ever crossed your mind? I
> have driven in sub 0 weather plenty of times, and if it is working
> properly, there is no problem except for occasional window fogging which
> anti-fog cures.
>
> headache because your sister is banging you over the head with a frying
> pan..
>
> everything is ok according to their outlook on things).
>
> the SOLUTION fix is to get her to stop hitting you over the head.
>
>
>
>
> People with high oil temps often take the same approach to high oil
> temps.. the oil temp is a symptom of other problems! (adding a cooler is
> NOT a solution)
>