Bye bye Chrysler, another American company destroyed by greedy liberal communist Democrats.

[Roger Wright]

MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA <FIA.MI> struck a
$4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC, ending more
than a year of tense talks that have obstructed Chief Executive Sergio
Marchionne�s efforts to combine the two automakers� resources.

The agreement, announced on Wednesday, cements Marchionne�s reputation as
the industry�s consummate dealmaker about a decade after he took the helm
of Fiat as a car business newcomer, analysts and bankers said.

But it remains to be seen whether a merger will be enough to cut Fiat�s
losses in Europe. Marchionne�s plan to shore up Fiat depends on the
ability to share technology, cash and dealer networks with Chrysler, the
No. 3 U.S. automaker.

�This is an increasingly American company now, because in Europe, and
especially in Italy, the business conditions remain difficult,� said
Andrea Giuricin, transport analyst at Milan�s Bicocca University. �Fiat
has already lost many of its market positions in Europe and it won�t be
easy to recover that.�

Fiat will acquire the 41.46 percent stake in Chrysler it did not already
own from a retiree healthcare trust affiliated with the United Auto
Workers union. The trust, known as a voluntary employee beneficiary
association or VEBA, will receive $3.65 billion in cash for the stake,
$1.9 billion of which will come from Chrysler and $1.75 billion from Fiat.
After the deal closes, Chrysler has committed to giving the UAW trust
another $700 million over three years.

The deal is expected to close on or before Jan 20. Fiat said that because
of how the deal is structured it will not need to make any capital
increase through a rights issue.

The VEBA�s payout is less rich than some analysts expected. The sale of
the UAW trust�s stake values the No. 3 U.S. automaker at less than $9
billion. When factoring in the additional $700 million, Chrysler is worth
$10.5 billion.

�We thought they were going to have to pay a lot more than that,� a
London-based analyst at a major investment bank said. �The market�s going
to love this � Marchionne�s done it again. He�s brought in a deal that
looks like a cracking one on the face of it and he doesn�t need to do a
capital increase.�

�DEFINING MOMENT�

Marchionne, who has run both automakers since Chrysler�s 2009 U.S.
government-funded bankruptcy restructuring, aims to merge Fiat and
Chrysler into the world�s seventh-largest auto group.

But he has been at odds over the U.S. automaker�s worth with the trust,
which was pushing for a payout of more than $5 billion. In September, the
trust exercised an option enshrined in bankruptcy documents to force
Chrysler to file for an initial public offering.

Wednesday�s deal will allow Chrysler to avoid an IPO.

In a statement, Marchionne called the buyout a defining moment for the two
companies.

�The unified ownership structure will now allow us to fully execute our
vision of creating a global automaker,� he said.

The Chrysler buyout talks have been closely watched by debt and equity
investors as Fiat�s long-term plan to cut losses in Europe depends on its
ability to deepen ties with Chrysler.

Chrysler is now a profit center for Fiat, but the two companies currently
are forced to manage their finances separately. A full merger will make it
easier � but not automatic � to combine the cash pools of the two
companies, giving Fiat more funds to expand its product line-up.

The UAW trust was created in 2007 as a way for General Motors Co <GM.N>,
Ford Motor Co <F.N> and Chrysler to offload their obligations to pay
retiree healthcare benefits.

Medical benefits for GM, Ford and Chrysler retirees are handled in
separate accounts and each account was initially to be funded with cash.
But during the 2009 financial crisis, the VEBA agreed to accept stakes in
GM and Chrysler in lieu of cash.

(Reporting by Deepa Seetharaman in Detroit and Stephen Jewkes in Milan;
additional reporting by Laurence Frost in Paris, Bernie Woodall in Detroit
and Agnieszka Flak in Milan; editing by Anthony Barker and Matthew Lewis)

http://www.euronews.com/business-newswires/2279618-fiat-strikes-4-point-
35-billion-deal-to-buy-rest-of-chrysler/

[Gronk]

Chrysler is not going anywhere.

Roger Wright wrote:
> MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA <FIA.MI> struck a

> $4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC, ending more
> than a year of tense talks that have obstructed Chief Executive Sergio

> Marchionne�s efforts to combine the two automakers� resources.
>
> The agreement, announced on Wednesday, cements Marchionne�s reputation as
> the industry�s consummate dealmaker about a decade after he took the helm

> of Fiat as a car business newcomer, analysts and bankers said.
>

> But it remains to be seen whether a merger will be enough to cut Fiat�s
> losses in Europe. Marchionne�s plan to shore up Fiat depends on the

> ability to share technology, cash and dealer networks with Chrysler, the
> No. 3 U.S. automaker.
>

> �This is an increasingly American company now, because in Europe, and
> especially in Italy, the business conditions remain difficult,� said
> Andrea Giuricin, transport analyst at Milan�s Bicocca University. �Fiat
> has already lost many of its market positions in Europe and it won�t be
> easy to recover that.�

>
> Fiat will acquire the 41.46 percent stake in Chrysler it did not already
> own from a retiree healthcare trust affiliated with the United Auto
> Workers union. The trust, known as a voluntary employee beneficiary
> association or VEBA, will receive $3.65 billion in cash for the stake,
> $1.9 billion of which will come from Chrysler and $1.75 billion from Fiat.
> After the deal closes, Chrysler has committed to giving the UAW trust
> another $700 million over three years.
>
> The deal is expected to close on or before Jan 20. Fiat said that because
> of how the deal is structured it will not need to make any capital
> increase through a rights issue.
>

> The VEBA�s payout is less rich than some analysts expected. The sale of
> the UAW trust�s stake values the No. 3 U.S. automaker at less than $9

> billion. When factoring in the additional $700 million, Chrysler is worth
> $10.5 billion.
>

> �We thought they were going to have to pay a lot more than that,� a
> London-based analyst at a major investment bank said. �The market�s going
> to love this � Marchionne�s done it again. He�s brought in a deal that
> looks like a cracking one on the face of it and he doesn�t need to do a
> capital increase.�
>
> �DEFINING MOMENT�
>
> Marchionne, who has run both automakers since Chrysler�s 2009 U.S.

> government-funded bankruptcy restructuring, aims to merge Fiat and

> Chrysler into the world�s seventh-largest auto group.
>
> But he has been at odds over the U.S. automaker�s worth with the trust,

> which was pushing for a payout of more than $5 billion. In September, the
> trust exercised an option enshrined in bankruptcy documents to force
> Chrysler to file for an initial public offering.
>

> Wednesday�s deal will allow Chrysler to avoid an IPO.

>
> In a statement, Marchionne called the buyout a defining moment for the two
> companies.
>

> �The unified ownership structure will now allow us to fully execute our
> vision of creating a global automaker,� he said.

>
> The Chrysler buyout talks have been closely watched by debt and equity

> investors as Fiat�s long-term plan to cut losses in Europe depends on its

> ability to deepen ties with Chrysler.
>
> Chrysler is now a profit center for Fiat, but the two companies currently
> are forced to manage their finances separately. A full merger will make it

> easier � but not automatic � to combine the cash pools of the two

[Rob]

and democrats did what?



"Gronk" <inv...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
news:la4629$eg7$1...@news.mixmin.net...

> Chrysler is not going anywhere.
>
> Roger Wright wrote:

>> MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA <FIA.MI> struck a

>> $4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC, ending
>> more
>> than a year of tense talks that have obstructed Chief Executive Sergio

>> Marchionne�s efforts to combine the two automakers� resources.
>>
>> The agreement, announced on Wednesday, cements Marchionne�s reputation as

>> the industry�s consummate dealmaker about a decade after he took the helm

>> of Fiat as a car business newcomer, analysts and bankers said.
>>

>> But it remains to be seen whether a merger will be enough to cut Fiat�s

>> losses in Europe. Marchionne�s plan to shore up Fiat depends on the

>> ability to share technology, cash and dealer networks with Chrysler, the
>> No. 3 U.S. automaker.
>>

>> �This is an increasingly American company now, because in Europe, and
>> especially in Italy, the business conditions remain difficult,� said
>> Andrea Giuricin, transport analyst at Milan�s Bicocca University. �Fiat
>> has already lost many of its market positions in Europe and it won�t be
>> easy to recover that.�

>>
>> Fiat will acquire the 41.46 percent stake in Chrysler it did not already
>> own from a retiree healthcare trust affiliated with the United Auto
>> Workers union. The trust, known as a voluntary employee beneficiary
>> association or VEBA, will receive $3.65 billion in cash for the stake,
>> $1.9 billion of which will come from Chrysler and $1.75 billion from
>> Fiat.
>> After the deal closes, Chrysler has committed to giving the UAW trust
>> another $700 million over three years.
>>
>> The deal is expected to close on or before Jan 20. Fiat said that because
>> of how the deal is structured it will not need to make any capital
>> increase through a rights issue.
>>

>> The VEBA�s payout is less rich than some analysts expected. The sale of
>> the UAW trust�s stake values the No. 3 U.S. automaker at less than $9

>> billion. When factoring in the additional $700 million, Chrysler is worth
>> $10.5 billion.
>>

>> �We thought they were going to have to pay a lot more than that,� a
>> London-based analyst at a major investment bank said. �The market�s going

>> to love this � Marchionne�s done it again. He�s brought in a deal that
>> looks like a cracking one on the face of it and he doesn�t need to do a
>> capital increase.�
>>
>> �DEFINING MOMENT�
>>
>> Marchionne, who has run both automakers since Chrysler�s 2009 U.S.

>> government-funded bankruptcy restructuring, aims to merge Fiat and

>> Chrysler into the world�s seventh-largest auto group.
>>
>> But he has been at odds over the U.S. automaker�s worth with the trust,

>> which was pushing for a payout of more than $5 billion. In September, the
>> trust exercised an option enshrined in bankruptcy documents to force
>> Chrysler to file for an initial public offering.
>>

>> Wednesday�s deal will allow Chrysler to avoid an IPO.

>>
>> In a statement, Marchionne called the buyout a defining moment for the
>> two
>> companies.
>>

>> �The unified ownership structure will now allow us to fully execute our
>> vision of creating a global automaker,� he said.

>>
>> The Chrysler buyout talks have been closely watched by debt and equity

>> investors as Fiat�s long-term plan to cut losses in Europe depends on its

>> ability to deepen ties with Chrysler.
>>
>> Chrysler is now a profit center for Fiat, but the two companies currently
>> are forced to manage their finances separately. A full merger will make
>> it

>> easier � but not automatic � to combine the cash pools of the two

[BeamMeUpScotty]

On 1/4/2014 4:10 PM, Rob wrote:
> and democrats did what?
>
>
>
> "Gronk" <inv...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
> news:la4629$eg7$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>> Chrysler is not going anywhere.
>>
>> Roger Wright wrote:

>>> MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA <FIA.MI> struck a

>>> $4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC, ending
>>> more
>>> than a year of tense talks that have obstructed Chief Executive Sergio

>>> Marchionne�s efforts to combine the two automakers� resources.
>>>
>>> The agreement, announced on Wednesday, cements Marchionne�s reputation as

>>> the industry�s consummate dealmaker about a decade after he took the helm

>>> of Fiat as a car business newcomer, analysts and bankers said.
>>>

>>> But it remains to be seen whether a merger will be enough to cut Fiat�s

>>> losses in Europe. Marchionne�s plan to shore up Fiat depends on the

>>> ability to share technology, cash and dealer networks with Chrysler, the
>>> No. 3 U.S. automaker.
>>>

>>> �This is an increasingly American company now, because in Europe, and
>>> especially in Italy, the business conditions remain difficult,� said

>>> Andrea Giuricin, transport analyst at Milan�s Bicocca University. �Fiat
>>> has already lost many of its market positions in Europe and it won�t be
>>> easy to recover that.�

>>>
>>> Fiat will acquire the 41.46 percent stake in Chrysler it did not already
>>> own from a retiree healthcare trust affiliated with the United Auto
>>> Workers union. The trust, known as a voluntary employee beneficiary
>>> association or VEBA, will receive $3.65 billion in cash for the stake,
>>> $1.9 billion of which will come from Chrysler and $1.75 billion from
>>> Fiat.
>>> After the deal closes, Chrysler has committed to giving the UAW trust
>>> another $700 million over three years.
>>>
>>> The deal is expected to close on or before Jan 20. Fiat said that because
>>> of how the deal is structured it will not need to make any capital
>>> increase through a rights issue.
>>>

>>> The VEBA�s payout is less rich than some analysts expected. The sale of
>>> the UAW trust�s stake values the No. 3 U.S. automaker at less than $9

>>> billion. When factoring in the additional $700 million, Chrysler is worth
>>> $10.5 billion.
>>>

>>> �We thought they were going to have to pay a lot more than that,� a
>>> London-based analyst at a major investment bank said. �The market�s going

>>> to love this � Marchionne�s done it again. He�s brought in a deal that
>>> looks like a cracking one on the face of it and he doesn�t need to do a
>>> capital increase.�
>>>
>>> �DEFINING MOMENT�
>>>
>>> Marchionne, who has run both automakers since Chrysler�s 2009 U.S.

>>> government-funded bankruptcy restructuring, aims to merge Fiat and

>>> Chrysler into the world�s seventh-largest auto group.
>>>
>>> But he has been at odds over the U.S. automaker�s worth with the trust,

>>> which was pushing for a payout of more than $5 billion. In September, the
>>> trust exercised an option enshrined in bankruptcy documents to force
>>> Chrysler to file for an initial public offering.
>>>

>>> Wednesday�s deal will allow Chrysler to avoid an IPO.

>>>
>>> In a statement, Marchionne called the buyout a defining moment for the
>>> two
>>> companies.
>>>

>>> �The unified ownership structure will now allow us to fully execute our
>>> vision of creating a global automaker,� he said.

>>>
>>> The Chrysler buyout talks have been closely watched by debt and equity

>>> investors as Fiat�s long-term plan to cut losses in Europe depends on its

>>> ability to deepen ties with Chrysler.
>>>
>>> Chrysler is now a profit center for Fiat, but the two companies currently
>>> are forced to manage their finances separately. A full merger will make
>>> it

>>> easier � but not automatic � to combine the cash pools of the two

>>> companies, giving Fiat more funds to expand its product line-up.
>>>
>>> The UAW trust was created in 2007 as a way for General Motors Co <GM.N>,
>>> Ford Motor Co <F.N> and Chrysler to offload their obligations to pay
>>> retiree healthcare benefits.
>>>
>>> Medical benefits for GM, Ford and Chrysler retirees are handled in
>>> separate accounts and each account was initially to be funded with cash.
>>> But during the 2009 financial crisis, the VEBA agreed to accept stakes in
>>> GM and Chrysler in lieu of cash.
>>>
>>> (Reporting by Deepa Seetharaman in Detroit and Stephen Jewkes in Milan;
>>> additional reporting by Laurence Frost in Paris, Bernie Woodall in
>>> Detroit
>>> and Agnieszka Flak in Milan; editing by Anthony Barker and Matthew Lewis)
>>>
>>> http://www.euronews.com/business-newswires/2279618-fiat-strikes-4-point-
>>> 35-billion-deal-to-buy-rest-of-chrysler/
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

That's the same way our Health Care industry will go, Now that ObamaCare
has taken an interest in it like the Feds took an interest in the Auto
and the Cigarette and the Steel and any other industry, that signals the
end is less than a generation away.

Goodbye to those high paying medical related jobs as they will all leave
for greener pastures in far off places that are a long ways away from
Obama and his Brand of Redistribution-Socialism.




--
If you haven't found the lie in what a Liberal told you, then you
didn't dig deep enough.

[Gronk]

Rob wrote:
> and democrats did what?

What were they supposed to do? The jobs aren't going anywhere.

Renault all but took over AMC under Reagan, who did nothing.

> "Gronk" <inv...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
> news:la4629$eg7$1...@news.mixmin.net...
>> Chrysler is not going anywhere.
>>
>> Roger Wright wrote:

>>> MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA <FIA.MI> struck a

>>> $4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC, ending
>>> more
>>> than a year of tense talks that have obstructed Chief Executive Sergio

>>> Marchionne�s efforts to combine the two automakers� resources.
>>>
>>> The agreement, announced on Wednesday, cements Marchionne�s reputation as

>>> the industry�s consummate dealmaker about a decade after he took the helm

>>> of Fiat as a car business newcomer, analysts and bankers said.
>>>

>>> But it remains to be seen whether a merger will be enough to cut Fiat�s

>>> losses in Europe. Marchionne�s plan to shore up Fiat depends on the

>>> ability to share technology, cash and dealer networks with Chrysler, the
>>> No. 3 U.S. automaker.
>>>

>>> �This is an increasingly American company now, because in Europe, and
>>> especially in Italy, the business conditions remain difficult,� said

>>> Andrea Giuricin, transport analyst at Milan�s Bicocca University. �Fiat
>>> has already lost many of its market positions in Europe and it won�t be
>>> easy to recover that.�

>>>
>>> Fiat will acquire the 41.46 percent stake in Chrysler it did not already
>>> own from a retiree healthcare trust affiliated with the United Auto
>>> Workers union. The trust, known as a voluntary employee beneficiary
>>> association or VEBA, will receive $3.65 billion in cash for the stake,
>>> $1.9 billion of which will come from Chrysler and $1.75 billion from
>>> Fiat.
>>> After the deal closes, Chrysler has committed to giving the UAW trust
>>> another $700 million over three years.
>>>
>>> The deal is expected to close on or before Jan 20. Fiat said that because
>>> of how the deal is structured it will not need to make any capital
>>> increase through a rights issue.
>>>

>>> The VEBA�s payout is less rich than some analysts expected. The sale of
>>> the UAW trust�s stake values the No. 3 U.S. automaker at less than $9

>>> billion. When factoring in the additional $700 million, Chrysler is worth
>>> $10.5 billion.
>>>

>>> �We thought they were going to have to pay a lot more than that,� a
>>> London-based analyst at a major investment bank said. �The market�s going

>>> to love this � Marchionne�s done it again. He�s brought in a deal that
>>> looks like a cracking one on the face of it and he doesn�t need to do a
>>> capital increase.�
>>>
>>> �DEFINING MOMENT�
>>>
>>> Marchionne, who has run both automakers since Chrysler�s 2009 U.S.

>>> government-funded bankruptcy restructuring, aims to merge Fiat and

>>> Chrysler into the world�s seventh-largest auto group.
>>>
>>> But he has been at odds over the U.S. automaker�s worth with the trust,

>>> which was pushing for a payout of more than $5 billion. In September, the
>>> trust exercised an option enshrined in bankruptcy documents to force
>>> Chrysler to file for an initial public offering.
>>>

>>> Wednesday�s deal will allow Chrysler to avoid an IPO.

>>>
>>> In a statement, Marchionne called the buyout a defining moment for the
>>> two
>>> companies.
>>>

>>> �The unified ownership structure will now allow us to fully execute our
>>> vision of creating a global automaker,� he said.

>>>
>>> The Chrysler buyout talks have been closely watched by debt and equity

>>> investors as Fiat�s long-term plan to cut losses in Europe depends on its

>>> ability to deepen ties with Chrysler.
>>>
>>> Chrysler is now a profit center for Fiat, but the two companies currently
>>> are forced to manage their finances separately. A full merger will make
>>> it

>>> easier � but not automatic � to combine the cash pools of the two

[MoPar Man]

Roger Wright wrote:

> MILAN/DETROIT (Reuters) � Italian carmaker Fiat SpA struck a

> $4.35 billion deal to gain full control of Chrysler Group LLC,

Didn't the Ontario and Canadian federal gov'ts have a stake in Chrysler
- similar to the stake they had in GM when those companies were bailed
out?

I'm still driving my 100% Pure Chrysler made and designed 300m and
->Dodge<- Ram.

I didn't buy anything new from Chrysler when it was owned/operated by
Daimler, and I'm not going to do so now that it's owned/operated by
these dago wops.

Chrysler should have been taken private by Kerkorian years ago. Or
bought by Magna.

A sad end to the most exciting and creative North American car company.

[jane.playne]

On 1/8/2014 12:10 PM, Gronk wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>> and democrats did what?
>
> What were they supposed to do? The jobs aren't going anywhere.
>
> Renault all but took over AMC under Reagan, who did nothing.
>
>

The distinction of the Chrysler bailout deal is what the democrats DID do.


What the democrats did was a violation of centuries of bankruptcy law.

Secured creditors were given the back seat and received 30 cents on the
dollar while the unsecured junior creditors, the union, received 50
cents on the dollar.

Unsecured creditors have a claim in a bankruptcy, but the unsecured
creditors are paid after the secured creditors are paid in full.



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124217356836613091
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/11/chrysler-bankruptcy-mortgage-opinions-columnists-epstein.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124199948894005017

.

It's not what they

[Frank]

On 1/10/2014 9:39 AM, jane.playne wrote:
> On 1/8/2014 12:10 PM, Gronk wrote:
>> Rob wrote:
>>> and democrats did what?
>>
>> What were they supposed to do? The jobs aren't going anywhere.
>>
>> Renault all but took over AMC under Reagan, who did nothing.
>>
>>
>
> The distinction of the Chrysler bailout deal is what the democrats DID do.
>
>
> What the democrats did was a violation of centuries of bankruptcy law.
>
> Secured creditors were given the back seat and received 30 cents on the
> dollar while the unsecured junior creditors, the union, received 50
> cents on the dollar.
>
> Unsecured creditors have a claim in a bankruptcy, but the unsecured
> creditors are paid after the secured creditors are paid in full.
>
>
>
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124217356836613091
> http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/11/chrysler-bankruptcy-mortgage-opinions-columnists-epstein.html
>
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124199948894005017
>

We lost both Chrysler and GM plants here in Delaware thanks to the
Democrats. Attempts to revitalize these plants by the state ruled
Democrats, GM with Fisker, have been a disaster costing tax payers
money. Lots of these so called American cars are now being made in Mexico.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Our "American" 2002 Chrysler 300M was built in Canada.

Perce

[Frank]

My last American car, a Mercury Lynx was built in Mexico. It was a POS
and I had to sue Ford and the dealer for warranty repair when the engine
blew in 11 months.

Even "American" cars built here are full of foreign parts.
I worked with an engineer who quit Ford when his next 2 year assignment
was to adapt a Ford to use a Japanese engine.

Story at our ex-Chrysler plant continues. It was taken over by Bloom
engineering to build fuel cells that are not as efficient as modern gas
turbines and the U. of Del and they want to put in a data center using
turbines for electricity and taxpayers footing large part of the bill.
Its a mess.

[Jeff M]

On 1/10/2014 1:45 PM, Frank wrote:
[snip]

> My last American car, a Mercury Lynx was built in Mexico. It was a POS
> and I had to sue Ford and the dealer for warranty repair when the engine
> blew in 11 months.

[snip]

My second to last American-built car was a little Ford Escort. It was
rock solid. I drove it over 100K miles with nothing but scheduled and
routine maintenance. Not even inconsequential things like interior trim
pieces ever broke or failed. My Lincoln Town Car was about the same.

When I bought a Jaguar, I expected to have a lot of problems, given
their notorious reputation as garage queens. Maybe I got lucky, but I'd
rate it at least average for mechanical reliability, and, of course, it
was an absolute joy to drive. Now, I've got a VW, which has proved
pretty darn reliable for over 200K miles, and has only broken down on
the roadside once, due to a cracked coolant hose fitting.


--
�The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.� - John Kenneth Galbraith

[Frank]

On 1/10/2014 3:18 PM, Jeff M wrote:
> On 1/10/2014 1:45 PM, Frank wrote:
> [snip]
>> My last American car, a Mercury Lynx was built in Mexico. It was a POS
>> and I had to sue Ford and the dealer for warranty repair when the engine
>> blew in 11 months.
> [snip]
>
> My second to last American-built car was a little Ford Escort. It was
> rock solid. I drove it over 100K miles with nothing but scheduled and
> routine maintenance. Not even inconsequential things like interior trim
> pieces ever broke or failed. My Lincoln Town Car was about the same.
>
> When I bought a Jaguar, I expected to have a lot of problems, given
> their notorious reputation as garage queens. Maybe I got lucky, but I'd
> rate it at least average for mechanical reliability, and, of course, it
> was an absolute joy to drive. Now, I've got a VW, which has proved
> pretty darn reliable for over 200K miles, and has only broken down on
> the roadside once, due to a cracked coolant hose fitting.
>
>

Escort and Lynx were the same car, some built in US and some Mexico.
This was before Ford got in bed with Mazda and I believe after that the
Escort was more of a Mazda. We had bought a Mazda 323 after the Lynx
and it ran like a top for 10 years when it got stolen and stripped for
parts. Your Escort may have been more Mazda than Ford.

[MoPar Man]

While unnecessarily full-quoting, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

> > Lots of these so called American cars are now being made in Mexico.
>
> Our "American" 2002 Chrysler 300M was built in Canada.

And a damn fine job those Canadians do.

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Just don't ask them to build a Health Care system....

[MoPar Man]

BeamMeUpScotty wrote:

> >> Our "American" 2002 Chrysler 300M was built in Canada.
> >
> > And a damn fine job those Canadians do.
>
> Just don't ask them to build a Health Care system....

Heh.

I AM Canadian.

And I look upon your american health care system - and laugh my ass off.

You couldn't have a more screwed up system if you tried.

And that was BEFORE Obamacare.

[Ray Keller]

"MoPar Man" <Mo...@Man.com> wrote in message
news:52D14E97...@Man.com...

LOL
Till you need medical care, then you come to the US to get it.

[BeamMeUpScotty]

I remember they had a shortage of (MRI) Magnetic Resonance Imaging units
in Canada and people were dying because of it, so they crossed the
border to get access to them.

And then the Canadian PM had his heart surgery here in the USA where the
care was so bad. In fact I don't imagine I ever bought a Canadian made
car either.


Hugo Chavez was probably thinking in his last moments that he should
have thrown Socialism under the bus and gone to America for some really
good treatment rather than to Cuba for what turned out to be less than
life saving Socialist medical care, and maybe that became the final nail
in his coffin. His own Socialism created a failed health care system in
Venezuela and he knew it and he went to Cuba where they too had a failed
Health Care system.

Why didn't the Canadian PM go to Cuba, I wonder?

[Frank]

A Spanish surgeon was flown in to treat Castro years ago.

Employees in the UK get extra paid health insurance to get around the
long waits there.

Canadian doctors will work week ends at private hospitals to make money
outside the socialized system.

Things are not all rosy under socialized medicine.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 01/11/14 11:56 am, Ray Keller wrote:

>>>>> Our "American" 2002 Chrysler 300M was built in Canada.
>>>>
>>>> And a damn fine job those Canadians do.
>>>
>>> Just don't ask them to build a Health Care system....
>>
>> Heh.
>>
>> I AM Canadian.
>>
>> And I look upon your american health care system - and laugh my ass off.
>>
>> You couldn't have a more screwed up system if you tried.
>>
>> And that was BEFORE Obamacare.
>>
>
> LOL
> Till you need medical care, then you come to the US to get it.

I have American relatives by marriage who have lived and worked in
Canada. The older one and his wife recently retired to the USA but made
sure to become Canadian citizens before doing so, so that if faced with
high-cost medical treatment in the USA they can always return to Canada
for low-cost or even free treatment.

The younger one laments the high cost of health insurance in the USA and
reminds us of the paltry cost of her pregnancies and deliveries in
Canada -- not to mention the paid pregnancy and maternity leave there.

A while back I saw a TV program about Americans going to Thailand for
surgery by US-trained surgeons for a small fraction of US costs.

A radio program a few months back told of a person going to Belgium for
a knee or hip replacement (I forget which) that was performed using a
US-made device at a cost (including return airfare) that was a fraction
of the cost in the USA.

There *are* excellent doctors, surgeons, and hospitals in the USA, but
the delivery system is a disaster: that wonderful health care is
available only to people with deep pockets, whether it's for paying the
"list price" or for paying outrageous insurance premiums.

Perce

[Gunner Asch]

So about all those Canadians who come to the US for medical care. Are
they crazy too?


__
"Anyone who things Obama is doing a good job
is either stupid or a perpetual societal leech"

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[Gunner Asch]

Odd that you make that claim...yet its so flawed.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649



10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Brief Analyses | Health

No. 649
Tuesday, March 24, 2009
by Scott Atlas

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to
health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists,
government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the
drum for a far larger government r�le in health care. Much of the
public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change
are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning
to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's
health care system should be considered.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for
common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in
Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United
Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K.
and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal
cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than
Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate
cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is
about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic
diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56
percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which
reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison,
of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent
of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23
percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer
screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the
appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests
for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a
mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72
percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear,
compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test,
compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy,
compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than
comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with
below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to
Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white
Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more
likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair
or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients
in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice
as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have
elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment
for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of
procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are
waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of
health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed.
More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and
British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental
change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive
than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the
"health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are
very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5
percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied
(6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new
technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K.
Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers na�ve to actual
medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American
physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic
resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for
improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the
table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans,
compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has
nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in
Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all
health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more
clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed
country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or
physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients
from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34
years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize.
Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United
States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and
the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those
in other developed countries.

Scott W. Atlas, M.D., is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and
a professor at the Stanford University Medical Center. A version of
this article appeared previously in the February 18, 2009, Washington
Times.

[1] Concord Working Group, "Cancer survival in five continents: a
worldwide population-based study,.S. abe at responsible for
theountries, in s chnologies, " Lancet Oncology, Vol. 9, No. 8, August
2008, pages 730 - 756; Arduino Verdecchia et al., "Recent Cancer
Survival in Europe: A 2000-02 Period Analysis of EUROCARE-4 Data,"
Lancet Oncology, Vol. 8, No. 9, September 2007, pages 784 - 796.

[2] U.S. Cancer Statistics, National Program of Cancer Registries,
U.S. Centers for Disease Control; Canadian Cancer Society/National
Cancer Institute of Canada; also see June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill,
"Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S.,"
National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 13429,
September 2007. Available at http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429.

[3] Oliver Schoffski (University of Erlangen-Nuremberg), "Diffusion of
Medicines in Europe," European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries
and Associations, 2002. Available at
http://www.amchampc.org/showFile.asp?FID=126. See also Michael
Tanner, "The Grass is Not Always Greener: A Look at National Health
Care Systems around the World," Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No.
613, March 18, 2008. Available at
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272.

[4] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and
Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[5] Ibid.

[6] Nadeem Esmail, Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting Your
Turn, (17th edition) Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada," Fraser
Institute, Critical Issues Bulletin 2007, Studies in Health Care
Policy, August 2008; Nadeem Esmail and Dominika Wrona "Medical
Technology in Canada," Fraser Institute, August 21, 2008 ; Sharon
Willcox et al., "Measuring and Reducing Waiting Times: A
Cross-National Comparison Of Strategies," Health Affairs, Vol. 26, No.
4, July/August 2007, pages 1,078-87; June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill,
"Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."; M.V.
Williams et al., "Radiotherapy Dose Fractionation, Access and Waiting
Times in the Countries of the U.K.. in 2005," Royal College of
Radiologists, Clinical Oncology, Vol. 19, No. 5, June 2007, pages
273-286.

[7] Nadeem Esmail and Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting
Your Turn 17th Edition: Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada 2007."

[8] "Hospital Waiting Times and List Statistics," Department of
Health, England. Available at
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/Performancedataandstatistics/HospitalWaitingTimesandListStatistics/index.htm?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=186979&Rendition=Web.

[9] Cathy Schoen et al., "Toward Higher-Performance Health Systems:
Adults' Health Care Experiences In Seven Countries, 2007," Health
Affairs, Web Exclusive, Vol. 26, No. 6, October 31, 2007, pages
w717-w734. Available at
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/26/6/w717.

[10] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and
Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[11] Victor R. Fuchs and Harold C. Sox Jr., "Physicians' Views of the
Relative Importance of 30 Medical Innovations," Health Affairs, Vol.
20, No. 5, September /October 2001, pages 30-42. Available at
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/20/5/30.pdf.

[12] OECD Health Data 2008, Organization for Economic Cooperation and
Development. Available at
http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_34631_12968734_1_1_1_37407,00.html.

[13] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation,"
Economic Report of the President (Washington, D.C.: Government
Printing Office, 2004), 108th Congress, 2nd Session H. Doc. 108-145,
February 2004, Chapter 10, pages 190-193, available at
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/pdf/2004_erp.pdf; Tyler Cowen,
New York Times, Oct. 5, 2006; Tom Coburn, Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie
Turner, "Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation,"
Heritage Foundation, Lecture No. 1030, April 2007; Thomas Boehm, "How
can we explain the American dominance in biomedical research and
development?" Journal of Medical Marketing, Vol. 5, No. 2, 2005, pages
158-66, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, July 2002.
Available at
http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/erp/page/8649/download/47455/8649_ERP.pdf
.

[14] Nicholas D. Kristof, "Franklin Delano Obama," New York Times,
February 28, 2009. Available at
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/opinion/01Kristof.html.

[15] The Nobel Prize Internet Archive. Available at
http://almaz.com/nobel/medicine/medicine.html.

[16] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," 2004
Economic Report of the President.

Read Article as PDF

[Rob]

yeah Canadian PM went to Miami




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