97.5 Buick REGAL GS does 6.6 but 108mph Max :(
Hyun Mun IN
Oh my. I dont know about others but I was considering buying the new
97.5 Buick Regal. I am only 26 but I had owned sport cars. The one that
I am driving now is Probe GT. I have read good articles about the New
Regal GS. And whats more. It gets 6.6 sec from 0 to 60mph and 15.1 a 1/4
mile. (according to car & driver mgzn). This is the fastest sport sedan
under $30,000. I know that sport cars are fun to drive but according to
the industry ( dont know the source) people tend to give up the sport
cars and tend to move High perfomance sedans. That's why sport car sales
are going down and Like LEXUS they are trying to build HPS( high
perfomance sedan). The only thing that I mind from Regal GS is the top
speed. I would like to do more than 130mph if there is any chip to do
so. I know that Park Avenue Ultra has the speedometer at 140 mph ( dont
know what the max speed is) and Regal GS at 125mph.
Consitering perfomance sedans under $25,000 nothing gets close to 97.5
Regal GS. Like one magazine ( Motor Trends) said, including the
accelaration and the queality, you should probably looking to a more
than $40,000 sedan.
I like high perfomance comfotable ride sedans. BMW M3 wow... No money
babe. Faster than Mitsubishi , Prelude, Corrado,...
It also has full time traction control, climate control, ...
What kind of Sport Sedan would you but for $25,000?
Andre
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:54:34 -0500, Hyun Mun IN <in...@osu.edu> wrote:
>
>What kind of Sport Sedan would you but for $25,000?
Maxima SE 5sp
-------------------------------------------------------------
(Remove asterisks from my address if you would like to reply)
Aardwolf
Andre wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:54:34 -0500, Hyun Mun IN <in...@osu.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >What kind of Sport Sedan would you but for $25,000?
>
> Maxima SE 5sp
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Should be just as quick as the mechanically
identical Regal, (a little bit lighter too) and not limited to 108 because of
crappy tires (better if not limited at all though, and with Ram Air 300hp
engine...)
Aardwolf.
John Weir
Aardwolf (se1...@itis.com) wrote:
: Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Should be just as quick as the mechanically
: identical Regal, (a little bit lighter too) and not limited to 108 because of
: crappy tires (better if not limited at all though, and with Ram Air 300hp
: engine...)
300?
I thought it was 240.
John
Edward Kim
Aardwolf (se1...@itis.com) wrote:
: Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Should be just as quick as the mechanically
: identical Regal, (a little bit lighter too) and not limited to 108 because of
: crappy tires (better if not limited at all though, and with Ram Air 300hp
: engine...)
The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+Edward Kim +
+Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 +
+uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!+
+1996 Mustang GT White/Black interior 5-speed +
+3.55s, subframes, K&N w/o air intake silencer +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Edward Kim
Geoff Miller (geo...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
: some multiple of five or ten, either 105 or 110.
The car is made by GM, right? :)
Geoff Miller
gt7...@acmey.gatech.edu (Edward Kim) writes:
> The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
some multiple of five or ten, either 105 or 110.
Geoff
--
"Democrats are so stupid that if one of 'em fell into a barrel
full of titties, he'd come out sucking his thumb." -- Will Durst
Lloyd R. Parker
Geoff Miller (geo...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
:
:
: > The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
:
:
: Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
: some multiple of five or ten, either 105 or 110.
Chrysler LHs without the performance handling suspension have S-rated
tires and are governed to 112 mph. (Isn't this the limit for the S
rating? Maybe GM just wanted a margin of error.)
Abe Getchell
'97 Jetta GLX VR6
Abe
'96 GTI VR6 w/ many mods
--
============================================
Abe L. Getchell
Sysadmin/Programmer/Webmaster/Data Manager
University of Kentucky = Center on Aging
E-Mail: sys...@iguana.coa.uky.edu
Webpage: http://www.coa.uky.edu/~sysabe/
=============================================
Sergey Macheret
John Weir wrote:
>
> Aardwolf (se1...@itis.com) wrote:
>
> : Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. Should be just as quick as the mechanically
> : crappy tires (better if not limited at all though, and with Ram Air 300hp
> : engine...)
>
>
> I thought it was 240.
>
> John
The production car has indeed 240 hp. However, the concept car, Pontiac GPX
(shown, as I recall, last year, and tested by magazines like C/D) had that thrilling
hood air inlet and other neat things, and it generated 300 hp. This shows the
great capabilities an potential of the 3800 supercharged engine.
Sergey Macheret
Ben
In article <geoffmE7...@netcom.com>, geo...@netcom.com (Geoff Miller) wrote:
>gt7...@acmey.gatech.edu (Edward Kim) writes:
>> The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
>Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
>some multiple of five or ten, either 105 or 110.
decent tires on it most dealerships will remove the limiter.
John Weir
Sergey Macheret (mach...@princeton.edu) wrote:
While this may be the case with a prototype that these rags may have
tested, prototypes don't mean squat in the real world.
GM produced this hp in a readily available, albeit in low numbers,
version of the Grand National known as the GNX.
This is production.
Welcome to reality.
John
Aardwolf
John Weir wrote:
> While this may be the case with a prototype that these rags may have
> tested, prototypes don't mean squat in the real world.
>
> GM produced this hp in a readily available, albeit in low numbers,
> version of the Grand National known as the GNX.
>
> This is production.
>
> Welcome to reality.
Yes, but I've heard anywhere from 275-345hp quoted for the GNX (and
25th anniversary Turbo T/A). And I sure doubt it was 345. Also the GP
_may_ have Ram Air and a further uprated engine available soon. It
certainly will have traction control. And the GTP is rev imited to about
125, not 108. It has better tires. But it would be nice to see a 300nhp
GPX available.
Aardwolf.
Sean Aron
>> I like high perfomance comfotable ride sedans. BMW M3 wow... >No money
>> babe. Faster than Mitsubishi , Prelude, Corrado,...
>> It also has full time traction control, climate control, ...
>>
>> What kind of Sport Sedan would you but for $25,000?
>
>'97 Jetta GLX VR6
>
>Abe
>'96 GTI VR6 w/ many mods
Check out the '98 Ford Contour SVT. 2.5l six, 190hp, 140mph. It looks
like it could be a real nice piece.
sean
('93 968)
--
"The future ain't what it used to be."--Yogi Berra
win95=mac84
lavo...@depechepilote.com
> Check out the '98 Ford Contour SVT. 2.5l six, 190hp, 140mph. It > looks like it could be a real nice piece.
How about the vehicle Ford never imported. The Ford Escort
Cosworth(UK) with a I-4 turbo, 280bhp, 160mph. A very distant
cousin to America's Escort GT. Now that, is a real piece.
Lavoisier
Joe Bronikowski
Lloyd R. Parker wrote:
>
> Geoff Miller (geo...@netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> :
> : gt7...@acmey.gatech.edu (Edward Kim) writes:
> :
> : > The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
> :
> :
> : Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
>
> Chrysler LHs without the performance handling suspension have S-rated
> tires and are governed to 112 mph. (Isn't this the limit for the S
> rating? Maybe GM just wanted a margin of error.)
Exactly right. The speed is limited by the S-rated tires. The new
Oldsmobile Intrigue is basically the same car as the new Regal,
but it will have an optional "Autobahn" package that includes H-rated
tires and larger front brakes, allowing a still-governed top speed of
126 mph or so (C&D review, from memory). Unfortunately, the
Intrigue _won't_ have the option of the supercharged 3800! Base price
is similiar to the Buick's, starting at $21,000, up to $25,000 or so with
all options.
I'm thinking of talking to some Buick and Olds dealers to see if there's
any way to get the autobahn package on the Regal or the supercharged
engine on the Intrigue. Otherwise I'll just have to buy a Z28 and live
with two doors :-)
Joe Bronikowski
joe.bro...@software.rockwell.com
Fred737
Whats so great about 300hp from a 3.8 V6 with a supercharger. Well maybe
for GM but Nissan and Toyota have been doing that for years from a 3.0 V6
turbo. And with a few more bolt on goodies like intake exhaust and
computer, the 300 jumps to 400 hp. And by the way, Steve Millans has
gotten a 97 Maxima, (3.0 V6) to almost 300 hp without a supercharger.
Fr...@aol.com
95 300 ZX TWIN TURBO (Modfied)
95 MAXima SE (Modfied) 14.8 1/4
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:15:18 -0600, Aardwolf <se1...@itis.com> wrote:
> John Weir wrote:
> > While this may be the case with a prototype that these rags may have
> > tested, prototypes don't mean squat in the real world.
> >
> > GM produced this hp in a readily available, albeit in low numbers,
> > version of the Grand National known as the GNX.
> >
> > This is production.
> >
> > Welcome to reality.
>
> Yes, but I've heard anywhere from 275-345hp quoted for the GNX (and
> 25th anniversary Turbo T/A). And I sure doubt it was 345. Also the GP
> _may_ have Ram Air and a further uprated engine available soon. It
> certainly will have traction control.
Where did you hear about the ram-air? That's a possibility I'd love to
see come to fruition.
Fred737
Typical GM bullshit. Build a car thats quick. And limit it. This is just
one reason I stay away from GM, there logic, or lack of. I have a 95
MAXima SE 5spd that stock ran 6.6 and tops out at 142.
Fr...@aol.com
95 MAXIMA SE (modified)
95 300ZX TWIN TURBO (modified)
Bill Stanton
On 22 Mar 1997 04:58:38 GMT, fre...@aol.com (Fred737) wrote:
> Whats so great about 300hp from a 3.8 V6 with a supercharger. Well maybe
> for GM but Nissan and Toyota have been doing that for years from a 3.0 V6
> turbo.
Let's not get too uppity here. ;-) Lots of high performance cars have
had 300hp or more for a while. The point here is that GM is now
bringing the Regal and Grand Prix into a much higher level of optional
performance than in recent years and making them the fastest currently
produced sedans for their price ($24K).
Saying a GTP or GS with 240hp is somehow less impressive than a 300ZX
or Supra Turbo is sort of missing the point. Don't you think it's good
to see American passenger cars returning to their performance roots
like the Grand Prix and Buick GS of old? Sure they're FWD now, but so
is everything else.
I dunno, it just brought a huge smile to my face to plant my foot in
that Buick's accelerator and get firmly planted back in my seat. To be
honest, if I didn't already have my Z, I'd look at that GS pretty
seriously. I'd want one all in black, though (OK so it's not a GN)...
>And with a few more bolt on goodies like intake exhaust and
> computer, the 300 jumps to 400 hp. And by the way, Steve Millans has
> gotten a 97 Maxima, (3.0 V6) to almost 300 hp without a supercharger.
But that doesn't take away from the GTP and GS... To me, it doesn't
matter how a car performs as long as it just *does*. Maybe there will
be an aftermarket for the 3800 II and maybe there won't, but stock for
stock the 190hp Maxima will have a rough time with these two new GM
cars at the local stoplights.
Mind you, I suspect the Nissan would have much higher build quality,
but it's getting old. A freshening with some suspension improvements
and about 20hp more would help a great deal. A full 300ZX version of
the 222hp NA 3.0 would be great.
You have to admit, GM is making a serious run for the bang 4 buck
department with these cars. I just hope they're built better than
other recent GM products I've owned or driven.
John Weir
Fred737 (fre...@aol.com) wrote:
: Whats so great about 300hp from a 3.8 V6 with a supercharger. Well maybe
: for GM but Nissan and Toyota have been doing that for years from a 3.0 V6
: computer, the 300 jumps to 400 hp. And by the way, Steve Millans has
: gotten a 97 Maxima, (3.0 V6) to almost 300 hp without a supercharger.
For years, eh?
I know that GM pushed their 3.8 V6 to 300 hp, with probably an significant
amount more torque, in '87 or '88. This is an engine it didn't take
two turbos to do it with, either.
Don't bother bringing the mods into the fray, I'm sick of reading
my engine can be modidied to a higher output than yours. With the
argument you use, we could bring 3.0l F1 engines into the discussion.
That 231 engine has quite a deep history, it has been used for many
different forms of racing, in very high outputs.
I am not a big fan of this engine, myself, for there have been some
pretty crappy versions of it produced too. It does have some enviable
accomplishments, though.
John
Sergey Macheret
Is (or was) the price of the Escort Cosworth below $25 K
in current dollars? Just curious.
Sergey Macheret
Sergey Macheret
I think that the Ram Air thing was on the Pontiac GPX prototype
shown last year on car shows. The current GTP is a detuned and
simplified version of the GPX. Try to check last year's C/D
(don't remember what issue).
Sergey Macheret
Joe Doughtis
Ben wrote:
>
> In article <geoffmE7...@netcom.com>, geo...@netcom.com (Geoff Miller) wrote:
> >gt7...@acmey.gatech.edu (Edward Kim) writes:
> >> The GTP IS limited to 108 also.
> >Why such an off-the-wall number? You'd think it would be
> >some multiple of five or ten, either 105 or 110.
> decent tires on it most dealerships will remove the limiter.
I highly doubt any dealership would do this. It would be asking for
liability problems.
Ben
In article <3334CD...@lmco.com>, Joe Doughtis <JDou...@lmco.com> wrote:
>I highly doubt any dealership would do this. It would be asking for
>liability problems.
require you sign some sort of wavier... a friend of mine got his Z24 limiter
removed when he put Z's on it.
David M. Spera
Bill Stanton wrote:
> Mind you, I suspect the Nissan would have much higher build quality,
> but it's getting old. A freshening with some suspension improvements
> and about 20hp more would help a great deal. A full 300ZX version of
> the 222hp NA 3.0 would be great.
Yes like bring back independent rear suspension.
--
--Dave
lavo...@depechepilote.com
The price was L25,000(Pounds) in England. The exchange rate was
L1-US$1.5, so the Cossie costed around US$40,000. When imported to
the States by a company located in Tarzana, CA the import price is
around US$$50,000. Hope that helps.
Lavoisier,
A Delecour fan.
>
> Sergey Macheret
Robert Eberhardt
For what it's worth:
April 1995 Car & Driver
Pontiac Grand Prix 300GPX
HP = 300
0-60 = 5.9 sec.
1/4 = 14.5 sec. @ 97 mph
Top Speed = Not given
August 1996 Car & Driver
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP 4 door
HP = 240
0-60 = 6.8 sec.
1/4 = 15.2 @ 93 mph
Top Speed = 127 mph
March 1997 Car & Driver
Buick Regal GS 4 door
HP = 240
0-60 = 6.6 sec.
1/4 = 15.1 @ 92 mph
Top Speed = 108 mph
Top speed is governed to match the speed rating of the tires.
Keith M Ryan
bsta...@wco.com (Bill Stanton) wrote:
>had 300hp or more for a while. The point here is that GM is now
>bringing the Regal and Grand Prix into a much higher level of optional
>performance than in recent years and making them the fastest currently
>produced sedans for their price ($24K).
I would not agree with that. The Maxima SE 5speed is within the same
mark in most tests, e.g. +/= .1 sec In addition, the Maxima can
travel almost 40mph faster than either the GTP or the GS. There
are currently plenty fo sedans which will go significantly faster than
104/108 mph.
I didn't get the GTP as the interior is desgined by Fisherprice for
old men wearing heavy gloves; and it does not offer a manual
transmission.
Please remove the asterik (*) from my email address, if you wish to email me.
Lloyd R. Parker
Fred737 (fre...@aol.com) wrote:
: Whats so great about 300hp from a 3.8 V6 with a supercharger. Well maybe
: for GM but Nissan and Toyota have been doing that for years from a 3.0 V6
: turbo.
Do any of them cost $20,000 and seat 5?
Lloyd R. Parker
Sean Aron (*sar...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu) wrote:
: >> What kind of Sport Sedan would you but for $25,000?
: >
: >'97 Jetta GLX VR6
Was dead last in C/D's test, although CR likes it.
: >
: >Abe
: >'96 GTI VR6 w/ many mods
:
: Check out the '98 Ford Contour SVT. 2.5l six, 190hp, 140mph. It looks
^^^^^
Actually, it's looks are why it's not a real nice piece, at least IMO.
: like it could be a real nice piece.
:
Finished mid-pack in C/D's test.
Sergey Macheret
Keith M Ryan wrote:
>
> bsta...@wco.com (Bill Stanton) wrote:
> >had 300hp or more for a while. The point here is that GM is now
> >bringing the Regal and Grand Prix into a much higher level of optional
> >performance than in recent years and making them the fastest currently
> >produced sedans for their price ($24K).
>
> I would not agree with that. The Maxima SE 5speed is within the same
> mark in most tests, e.g. +/= .1 sec In addition, the Maxima can
> travel almost 40mph faster than either the GTP or the GS. There
> are currently plenty fo sedans which will go significantly faster than
> 104/108 mph.
>
Can you name any other examples in <$25K category in addition to the Maxima SE 5-sp.?
Also, maybe fair comparison would be with the AT-equipped
Maxima (apples to apples), that has 0-60 time near 8 sec.
As to the maximum speed, the 108 mph limit is determined only by tires,
and in no way does it reflect the car capabilities.
Sergey Macheret
Bill Stanton
On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 00:12:24 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
> I would not agree with that. The Maxima SE 5speed is within the same
> mark in most tests, e.g. +/= .1 sec In addition, the Maxima can
> travel almost 40mph faster than either the GTP or the GS. There
> are currently plenty fo sedans which will go significantly faster than
> 104/108 mph.
I should have qualified it with quickest accelerating.
I've seen several 7.0+sec 0-60 Maxima 'tests' in addition to the one
or two 6.x tests, while no test I've yet seet has place the GTP/GS any
slower than 6.8sec 0-60. With 45hp more, even if the Maxima is lighter
and equipped with 5-speed, the 3800II should be at least a bit
quicker.
And that speed limiter can always be removed, you realize. Also, the
GTP is limited not to 108mph but 127mph. I highly doubt a Maxima can
do 40mph more than the 108mph of the GS (148mph).
> I didn't get the GTP as the interior is desgined by Fisherprice for
> old men wearing heavy gloves; and it does not offer a manual
> transmission.
This is pretty subjective stuff, here. I personally prefer it over the
exceedingly bland Maxima interior. But again, I will repeat that I'd
have to be convinced that the GM products would have a higher build
quality than previous GM cars I have owned and driven.
The Maxima, meanwhile, suffers from a lack of IRS, dated styling
inside and out and a motor that, while certainly still competitive, is
also getting a bit old. I'm sure it's more reliable than the GTP/GS,
though. My recent experience with Nissan products have really
impressed me in terms of their solidity and reliability (from my
brother's '93 Truck to a '95 Altima I rented for a couple weeks).
David Foley
You go, boy!
btw, the AT Maxima SE is 400lb lighter, $5000 more expensive (base), and
much slower to 60mph. It seems to be widely accepted that the Maxima SE is
a wonderful sports sedan - possibly the best of its kind (until the GTP -
heh, heh). However if the Pontiac division makes good on its promise to
further improve the performance of the Supercharged 3800 (Motor Trend July
'96) then the AT GTP driver will soon be seeing Maxima SE 5-speeds as
little black dots in that ol' rearview thingy. (They needn't feel lonely,
they can hang out with the Taurus SHO !!!).
--
Rush is a band !
Sergey Macheret <mach...@princeton.edu> wrote in article
<3336E5...@princeton.edu>...
Keith M Ryan
"David Foley" <df2...@ibm.net> wrote:
>You go, boy!
>btw, the AT Maxima SE is 400lb lighter, $5000 more expensive (base), and
>much slower to 60mph. It seems to be widely accepted that the Maxima SE is
>a wonderful sports sedan - possibly the best of its kind (until the GTP -
>heh, heh). However if the Pontiac division makes good on its promise to
>further improve the performance of the Supercharged 3800 (Motor Trend July
>'96) then the AT GTP driver will soon be seeing Maxima SE 5-speeds as
>little black dots in that ol' rearview thingy. (They needn't feel lonely,
>they can hang out with the Taurus SHO !!!).
Actually, if you would look at them being comparably equiped, they are
not $5000 different inprice between the GTP and the SE 5speed. The
5speed is alot better thru the turns and twisties. If you want
performance, you by the 5speed. Its as simple as that. BTW: while you
are stuck at 108mph, I'll just blow your doors off at over 140mph..
ta-ta!
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:41:39 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
> Actually, if you would look at them being comparably equiped, they are
> not $5000 different inprice between the GTP and the SE 5speed.
Comparably equipped, they are. The auto SE stickers at about $30K
according to Edmunds price guide. My friend just bought his GTP for
$24K and change. They MSRP for about $25K fully loaded.
> 5speed is alot better thru the turns and twisties. If you want
> performance, you by the 5speed. Its as simple as that. BTW: while you
> are stuck at 108mph, I'll just blow your doors off at over 140mph..
The GTP is not limited to 108mph, but 127. The Buick GS is limited to
108mph. And if removing the limiter is as easy as it is on F-Bodies,
it'll take about 5 min. for a GTP driver to equalize the top end real
quick. Furthermore, maybe a Maxima SE can do over 140mph, and maybe it
can't. I tend to think it probably can't, but what do I know?
Matt Shaw
On Thu, 20 Mar 97 19:27:19 GMT, hol...@iquest.net (Ben) wrote:
> usually it's because of the tires that the car is limited, if you put some
> decent tires on it most dealerships will remove the limiter.
Unfortunately, because of OBD II, that vehicle speed limiter is a part
of the cars integrated "chassis computer", which controls and monitors
a lot more these days than just the engine and the electronic
transmission. In order to remove this restriction on a 1997 GM (and I
believe this actually started on the 1996 model year vehicles), you
need to reprogram the computer. However, the good news is I have
heard there are already people out there doing this effectively, so as
soon as my GTP is delivered...well...I'll be researching this much
more closely. :-)
It would be nice if GM made z-rated tires available though, so these
cars wouldn't always have such an annoying and embarrassing
limitation.
Matt Shaw (cou...@hooked.net) http://www.hooked.net/~cougar
Chuck Tomlinson
cou...@hooked.net (Matt Shaw) wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Mar 97 19:27:19 GMT, hol...@iquest.net (Ben) wrote:
>
>> usually it's because of the tires that the car is limited, if you put some
>> decent tires on it most dealerships will remove the limiter.
>
>Unfortunately, because of OBD II, that vehicle speed limiter is a part
>of the cars integrated "chassis computer", which controls and monitors
>a lot more these days than just the engine and the electronic
>transmission.
Vehicle speed limiters have nothing to do with OBD-II (they were
around before "OBD-1"). It's purely a matter of tire speed rating.
And AFAIK, speed limiting is controlled by the PCM (powertrain
control module), which still controls only the powertrain. Other
controllers operate the brakes, power steering, dampers, and
leveling (at least on GM vehicles).
--
__
___| |____ Chuck Tomlinson <toml...@ix.netcom.com>
/___LT-1___/ Mouse Power!
|__| '94 Vette Z07/ZF6, '89 Mustang LX5.0L/T5
Keith M Ryan
bsta...@wco.com (Bill Stanton) wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:41:39 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
>> Actually, if you would look at them being comparably equiped, they are
>> not $5000 different inprice between the GTP and the SE 5speed.
>Comparably equipped, they are. The auto SE stickers at about $30K
>according to Edmunds price guide. My friend just bought his GTP for
>$24K and change. They MSRP for about $25K fully loaded.
Um, I think you need to check again.. sure you are not confusing it
with the GXE/GLE? I purchased my 96 SE for $20,500 ( including
destination ), and I believe MSRP was $23,500ish.
$20,100 +
$550 destination
$1230 GTP package
$1600 1SC package
23.480 minimum out the door MSRP for the GTP
Maxima SE 5speed
$23,700 minimum out the door MSRP for the SE
There is also no way to equalize all the options. For example, you'ld
have to add the cost of an aftermarket 130 amp alternator to teh cost
of the GTP, cost of retrofitting a "heads up display" in the Maxima,
etc.
The MSRPof what one can actually drive off the lot, is very similar,
within $220 of each other. $5,000k difference? I think not.
>> 5speed is alot better thru the turns and twisties. If you want
>> performance, you by the 5speed. Its as simple as that. BTW: while you
>> are stuck at 108mph, I'll just blow your doors off at over 140mph..
>The GTP is not limited to 108mph, but 127. The Buick GS is limited to
>108mph. And if removing the limiter is as easy as it is on F-Bodies,
>it'll take about 5 min. for a GTP driver to equalize the top end real
>quick.
Well, are we talking stock versus stock, or stock versus modified? One
ought to limit all discussions to stock versus stock. Hell, then I can
"inherent" a Porsche 911twin turbo from my deceased friend, for only
$1...
> Furthermore, maybe a Maxima SE can do over 140mph, and maybe it
>can't. I tend to think it probably can't, but what do I know?
Well, then it'll go against almost every review where they tested top
end speed :)
Matt Shaw
> Vehicle speed limiters have nothing to do with OBD-II (they were
That's correct, and I never said otherwise. However, when GM
redesigned their ECM to comply with OBD-II standards, they integrated
the vehicle speed limiter into the unit. It is no longer a separate
module which can be bypassed.
Chuck Tomlinson
>That's correct, and I never said otherwise. However, when GM
>redesigned their ECM to comply with OBD-II standards, they integrated
>the vehicle speed limiter into the unit. It is no longer a separate
>module which can be bypassed.
Hmm... my knowledge of GM ECMs is limited, but I recall Buick Grand
Nationals being speed-limited, and the speed limit info was stored
in a chip on the ECM. Back then (well, pre-1994), the ECM data
could be updated by exchanging a removable PROM chip that was
located in the ECM housing.
Since '94 (at least on some models) the PROMs have been replaced by
non-removable flash memory which can be modified only by downloading
a new data set to the ECM. This data set contains speed limit info.
Is that what you meant by "no longer a separate module"?
--
Chuck Tomlinson
YOON KIM
cou...@hooked.net (Matt Shaw) wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Mar 97 19:27:19 GMT, hol...@iquest.net (Ben) wrote:
>
>need to reprogram the computer. However, the good news is I have
>heard there are already people out there doing this effectively, so as
>soon as my GTP is delivered...well...I'll be researching this much
>more closely. :-)
Superchips Inc. Does this and has an array of chips for all makes and
models. WWW.superchips.com
Wolph
In article <3336a488...@news.wco.com>, bsta...@wco.com wrote:
> On 22 Mar 1997 04:58:38 GMT, fre...@aol.com (Fred737) wrote:
>
> > Whats so great about 300hp from a 3.8 V6 with a supercharger. Well maybe
> > for GM but Nissan and Toyota have been doing that for years from a 3.0 V6
> > turbo.
>
> Let's not get too uppity here. ;-) Lots of high performance cars have
> had 300hp or more for a while. The point here is that GM is now
> bringing the Regal and Grand Prix into a much higher level of optional
> performance than in recent years and making them the fastest currently
> produced sedans for their price ($24K).
Well so far, the GTP, while its been a fair race, can't keep up with my
$20,500 Maxima SE 5speed. And, when I was hoping arounding in traffic
with one, every time the road cleared out, I'ld devestate it, as I'm
already in 2nd or 3rd, while his slushbox was lugging in overdrive for
a half second or two..
--
Please remove the "*" infront of my account name, for any correspondence.
Wolph
In article <3336E5...@princeton.edu>, Sergey Macheret
<mach...@princeton.edu> wrote:
> Keith M Ryan wrote:
> >
> > bsta...@wco.com (Bill Stanton) wrote:
> > >had 300hp or more for a while. The point here is that GM is now
> > >bringing the Regal and Grand Prix into a much higher level of optional
> > >performance than in recent years and making them the fastest currently
> > >produced sedans for their price ($24K).
> >
> > I would not agree with that. The Maxima SE 5speed is within the same
> > mark in most tests, e.g. +/= .1 sec In addition, the Maxima can
> > travel almost 40mph faster than either the GTP or the GS. There
> > are currently plenty fo sedans which will go significantly faster than
> > 104/108 mph.
> >
>
> Can you name any other examples in <$25K category in addition to the
Maxima SE 5-sp.?
"The fastest produced sedans".. not "one of the fastest.." but "THE" fastest.
> Also, maybe fair comparison would be with the AT-equipped
> Maxima (apples to apples), that has 0-60 time near 8 sec.
> As to the maximum speed, the 108 mph limit is determined only by tires,
> and in no way does it reflect the car capabilities.
If GM intentionally gives the GTP a crutch to hobble around on, doesn't
diminish my right to buy a car with a manual.
The car's capabilities are 108mph. You drive it off the lot, and it
will only do 108mph. It dosn't matter why it can't go faster, that's
what its capable of doing. GM knows the GTP is *unsafe* to travel at a
speed greater than the limitor; and they're only covering thier ass
from lawsuits. I think its a good thing, for a manufacture to attempt to
make cars safer.
Wolph
In article <01bc3956$f1a4a080$aa8648a6@default>, "David Foley"
<df2...@ibm.net> wrote:
> You go, boy!
>
> btw, the AT Maxima SE is 400lb lighter, $5000 more expensive (base), and
> much slower to 60mph. It seems to be widely accepted that the Maxima SE is
> a wonderful sports sedan - possibly the best of its kind (until the GTP -
> heh, heh). However if the Pontiac division makes good on its promise to
> further improve the performance of the Supercharged 3800 (Motor Trend July
> '96) then the AT GTP driver will soon be seeing Maxima SE 5-speeds as
> little black dots in that ol' rearview thingy. (They needn't feel lonely,
> they can hang out with the Taurus SHO !!!).
Well ge, why dont you just compare the GXE AT then? e.g. the base maxima
to the base gtp. However, I disagree with your assessment that the GTP
is $5grand cheaper than the SE auto bass.
Anyways, the proof is on the road. And GTP's just arn't very competative,
especially when there is a turn! But, if any are in south florida, and
would like to have some fun.. I'm always game.
Wolph
> On Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:41:39 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
>
>
> > Actually, if you would look at them being comparably equiped, they are
> > not $5000 different inprice between the GTP and the SE 5speed.
>
> Comparably equipped, they are. The auto SE stickers at about $30K
> according to Edmunds price guide. My friend just bought his GTP for
> $24K and change. They MSRP for about $25K fully loaded.
Oh stop lying. Edmunds lists $21,919 for the base GXE, $23,919 for the
SE 5speed, and $24,719 for the SE auto. If you wish to nitpick options,
lets compare the cost between the SE 5speed fully loaded, and the
cost of retrofitting a Borg 5speed to the GTP!
Wolph
In article <333b489f...@news.wco.com>, bsta...@wco.com wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 00:12:24 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
>
> > I would not agree with that. The Maxima SE 5speed is within the same
> > mark in most tests, e.g. +/= .1 sec In addition, the Maxima can
> > travel almost 40mph faster than either the GTP or the GS. There
> > are currently plenty fo sedans which will go significantly faster than
> > 104/108 mph.
>
> I should have qualified it with quickest accelerating.
>
> I've seen several 7.0+sec 0-60 Maxima 'tests' in addition to the one
> or two 6.x tests, while no test I've yet seet has place the GTP/GS any
> slower than 6.8sec 0-60. With 45hp more, even if the Maxima is lighter
> and equipped with 5-speed, the 3800II should be at least a bit
> quicker.
How many tests do you need? Well, lets post them, for the 95-96 Maxima
SE 5speed.
Mag Date 0-60 5-60 1/4 ET @mph Model trans mag feature
C&D 1/96 6.7 7.2 15.3 92 95 SE 5sp Long Term Test, new
C&D 1/96 6.6 7.0 15.2 93 95 SE 5sp Long Term Test, 40K miles
AM** 8/95 6.6 --- 15.2 92 95 GXE 5sp Great Cars for $20K
MT** 2/95 6.6 --- 15.2 92 95 SE 5sp 1995 Import Car of the Year
MT 12/96 6.7 --- 15.1 92 96 SMX 5sp Extreme Sedans***
C&D 6/96 6.4 6.9 15.1 92 96 SMX 5sp SMX Road Test***
Damn.. four different tests, from three different magazines, as well
as two tests of the SMX.. ( please note, the upgrades does not include
the computer chip, etc.. which are not finalized yet ).
Why dont we wait till one of the mags tests a non manufactures
tweaked GTP; and an off the lot vehicle? eh?
> And that speed limiter can always be removed, you realize.
But that isn't comparing the car's abilities. Anyone can compare
non-stock to stock.. but jeez wizz, that's lame.
> Also, the
> GTP is limited not to 108mph but 127mph. I highly doubt a Maxima can
> do 40mph more than the 108mph of the GS (148mph).
"almost 40mph", depending on who you believe, the SE has reached from
143 to 146mph in top end speed.
> The Maxima, meanwhile, suffers from a lack of IRS, dated styling
> inside and out and a motor that, while certainly still competitive, is
> also getting a bit old.
The BMW M3 sedan also lacks IRS, and uses a similar multi link, rear
beam suspension.. its the tuning that matters.. the GTP is very unrefined
in the handling department.
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:19:36 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> "The fastest produced sedans".. not "one of the fastest.." but "THE" fastest.
Uh, you haven't seen too many Cadillac STS's, have you? Or a Benz C36?
Hell, even some of those newer Volvos...
> If GM intentionally gives the GTP a crutch to hobble around on, doesn't
> diminish my right to buy a car with a manual.
Does this mean that Nissan has hobbled the version of the SE and GLE
with standard auto trans? I wish your right to type was diminished.
> The car's capabilities are 108mph. You drive it off the lot, and it
> will only do 108mph.
I'm beginning to think your synapses have speed limiters on them. You
have been repeatedly told that the GTP is not limited to 108mph but
127mph. The Buick Regal GS is limited to 108mph.
> GM knows the GTP is *unsafe* to travel at a
> speed greater than the limitor; and they're only covering thier ass
> from lawsuits.
*smacking you upside the head*
It's the TIRES! You know, the speed rating on those little bands of
rubber and steel belts that that are filled with air and are wrapped
around the things that spin called WHEELS.
Some LT1 V8-equipped F-Bodies (you know, Camaro/Firebird) that used to
come with H-rated tires had the same sort of "LIMITOR" on them. Do you
seriously think that they were incapable of speeds in excess of
108mph?
>> TO REPLY REMOVE THE "*" FROM MY EMAIL ADDRESS! <<
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_
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:36:23 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Anyways, the proof is on the road. And GTP's just arn't very competative,
> especially when there is a turn! But, if any are in south florida, and
> would like to have some fun.. I'm always game.
Excuse me, where have you gotten the idea that GTP's aren't very
competitive, especially in turns? What evidence do you have of that?
At least the GM has true independent rear suspension, something that
cannot be said for the Maxima anymore.
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:42:26 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Oh stop lying. Edmunds lists $21,919 for the base GXE, $23,919 for the
> SE 5speed, and $24,719 for the SE auto. If you wish to nitpick options,
> lets compare the cost between the SE 5speed fully loaded, and the
> cost of retrofitting a Borg 5speed to the GTP!
People who are insecure in their car choices are so amusing sometimes.
Edmunds lists the SE auto with a $23,679 BASE MSRP. That hardly means
anything, because we're comparing SIMILARLY EQUIPPED CARS. That means
an auto SE with an auto GTP.
So how does the SE break down? Well, start by tacking on a whopping
$999 for OPTIONAL ABS(standard on the Grand Prixs) onto the SE, a $405
destination charge, $1349 for the ONLY trim package (X03) which
requires the following packages be purschased with it: J01 Sunroof
option for $899, the H07 Bose Audio for $799, and the V01 Security and
Convenience package for $699. That comes out to an MSRP of $28,699.
Nissan is very crafty with their base MSRP. In order to get almost ANY
options on the car, you HAVE to buy the whole option shebang. This
isn't even including local emissions or cold weather package (which
includes heated seats & mirrors like the loaded GTP has).
It's the work of a frantic mind to say that you must somehow compare a
retrofitted 5-speed GTP to a 5-speed SE when Nissan very conveniently
sells an SE with automatic as standard. That's right, the 08216 Sedan
SE 4-Dr Automatic is a car unto itself. The transmission isn't listed
as an option, it's STANDARD, according to Edmunds. So, comparing it
directly to the auto GTP is common sense. And in that comparison, the
similarly equipped GTP totals out at around $24K, almost $5,000 less,
as I said.
Saying the GXE has a base MSRP without options of $21,919 is like
saying that the Grand Prix GT has a base MSRP of $19,189. It doesn't
prove anything until you equip similar cars with similar options.
BTW, Motor Trend listed a 1995 SE (in their 6/94 issue) with an
as-tested price of $27,480 with a ***5-speed transmission***.
Now does all this mean the Maxima isn't as good as a GTP? No, I think
I might go with the Maxima if given a choice, but it would be a very
close call. The allure of the racy GTP styling, dramatic interior and
much more powerful engine might be enough to make me forget Nissan's
superior quality worksmanship, despite the price difference. And this
from a devout Nissan fan like myself (as my friends will attest), is
hardly pro-American car bias.
m...@i.net
Your full of crap boy. Ive driven both the gtp and the maxima. The maxima
is like driving a economy car as far as performance compared to the gtp.
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:26:27 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> How many tests do you need? Well, lets post them, for the 95-96 Maxima
> SE 5speed.
I don't need any tests to know that the 5-speed SE can do 0-60 in
under 7 seconds most of the time. Nor do I need them to know a GTP can
do the same thing, if not a bit quicker.
> Damn.. four different tests, from three different magazines, as well
> as two tests of the SMX.. ( please note, the upgrades does not include
> the computer chip, etc.. which are not finalized yet ).
Who's comparing modified cars to stock, now?
> Why dont we wait till one of the mags tests a non manufactures
> tweaked GTP; and an off the lot vehicle? eh?
Oh yeah, all those 6.6 0-60 times were from TWEAKED MANUFACTURER CARS.
Wow, serious denial on your part. I drove a Buick GS and a GTP myself,
I know what these cars can do.
> But that isn't comparing the car's abilities. Anyone can compare
> non-stock to stock.. but jeez wizz, that's lame.
OK, whatever. Sounds like you're afraid to admit a GTP would probably
outrun even a 5-speed SE at the top end without the limiter. I'd say
what the car can do without the limit is more of what it's true
"abilities" are.
> "almost 40mph", depending on who you believe, the SE has reached from
> 143 to 146mph in top end speed.
Well at this point I sure as hell don't believe *you*.
> The BMW M3 sedan also lacks IRS, and uses a similar multi link, rear
> beam suspension.. its the tuning that matters.. the GTP is very unrefined
> in the handling department.
Oh, similar eh? Then why the M3 described as having "4-wheel
independent suspension (front - strut type; rear - central link)" by
Edmunds? And the Maxima is listed as "independent strut front
suspension, rear Multi-Link Beam suspension" ..?
And where, oh where do you get this scientific information about the
unrefined GTP handling..?
Bill Stanton
On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:14:22 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Well so far, the GTP, while its been a fair race, can't keep up with my
> $20,500 Maxima SE 5speed. And, when I was hoping arounding in traffic
> with one, every time the road cleared out, I'ld devestate it, as I'm
> already in 2nd or 3rd, while his slushbox was lugging in overdrive for
> a half second or two..
First off, show me anything but a USED Maxima SE for $20,500. Second,
you were probably racing an older GT, or a new standard GT without the
240hp engine. It's very difficult to tell them apart other than the
GTP badge on the side, visible only upon close inspection. I'm quite
sure that you weren't up against a brand new GTP.
I've only see one or two on the road myself.
Fred737
Not the fastest, maybe no.2 but not the fastest. Like the poster before me
I also have a 95 MAXima SE 5spd. And by the way I also own a 95 300 ZX
Twin turbo at 440hp. In my Max. I have walked away from three or four
GTP's at lights, and humiliated one on the freeway. 240 hp???. Hell I
don't know what stable GM gets there horses from but I think when GM says
"horse" power, they should be saying pony power.
Fr...@aol.com
95 MAXIMA SE (modified)
95 300 ZX TWIN TURBO (modified)
Sloan E. Essman
IMHO, I don't think there's any room to brag about beating a stock
vehicle with one with performance mods. If you want to get down to it,
the GTP's 3800 series II can make over 300 hp with a supercharger pulley
swap and a new computer chip (check the GPX articles in some older Motor
Trend magazines). The engine is de-tuned for improved transaxle life.
Look for this to be improved next year.
Those 3 or 4 GTPs that you've walked away from...uh, did they know that
you were trying to race them? I've "outrun" Z28s and Corvettes from
stoplights also. Of course, we weren't racing, and neither of us were
at more than half throttle so what's to brag about?
IMHO, I'd rather run a car that was my equal. Forget the iron, let's
see which driver knows how to make their car perform.
--
Sloaner "Beware of the quiet ones..."
http://www.mysite.com/sloan
sl...@hypercon.com
Brought to you by Netscape Navigator Gold 3.0
Bill Stanton
On 2 Apr 1997 20:27:10 GMT, fre...@aol.com (Fred737) wrote:
> Not the fastest, maybe no.2 but not the fastest. Like the poster before me
> I also have a 95 MAXima SE 5spd. And by the way I also own a 95 300 ZX
> Twin turbo at 440hp. In my Max. I have walked away from three or four
> GTP's at lights, and humiliated one on the freeway. 240 hp???. Hell I
> don't know what stable GM gets there horses from but I think when GM says
> "horse" power, they should be saying pony power.
A stock SE or otherwise 190hp 5-speed (and esp. automatic) will not
walk away from a new 240hp GTP. You and the other guy simply were not
racing new GTP's. Remember the badging, which is the only difference
between the cars.
The car definitely puts out 240hp. Try driving one before you get too
flamboyant in your deriding commentary.
I don't know what your 300ZX @ 440hp has anything to do with it, I
have a '95 300ZX TT that runs 13.8's myself and it doesn't cloud my
judgment of perfectly worthwhile domestic vehicles.
You have walked on three or four GTP's? I have only see one on the
open road since they were introduced. I've seen several GT's, though.
-Bill
1995 300ZX TT 5-speed, RS Akimoto Intake, 13.80/104mph
John Weir
m...@i.net wrote:
: Your full of crap boy. Ive driven both the gtp and the maxima. The maxima
: is like driving a economy car as far as performance compared to the gtp.
I sure as hell hope you drive better than you write.
Keith M Ryan
bsta...@wco.com (Bill Stanton) wrote:
>> How many tests do you need? Well, lets post them, for the 95-96 Maxima
>> SE 5speed.
>I don't need any tests to know that the 5-speed SE can do 0-60 in
>under 7 seconds most of the time. Nor do I need them to know a GTP can
>do the same thing, if not a bit quicker.
Yea well, so for, these mysterious GTP's havn't appeared. I absolutely
devestated one GTP while hoping thru traffic. We'ld slow down for
them, but immediately when it opened, I'm in 3rd or even 2nd, and he's
luggin in overdrive.. Absolutely devestated him.. and once his car got
in the right gear.. it could only hold its distance, couldn't catch
up..
>> Damn.. four different tests, from three different magazines, as well
>> as two tests of the SMX.. ( please note, the upgrades does not include
>> the computer chip, etc.. which are not finalized yet ).
>Who's comparing modified cars to stock, now?
The SMX can be ordered thru any Nissan dealerships, and around 20 or
so have them on their lots. Its no different than purchasing a WS6
Camaro or the like. Now, you can also order alot of the parts
aftermarket, but then, it would not be considered "stock". However,
the upgrades in the SMX package would not have made much difference in
the 0-60, they were mostly handling and braking improvements.
>> Why dont we wait till one of the mags tests a non manufactures
>> tweaked GTP; and an off the lot vehicle? eh?
>Oh yeah, all those 6.6 0-60 times were from TWEAKED MANUFACTURER CARS.
>Wow, serious denial on your part. I drove a Buick GS and a GTP myself,
>I know what these cars can do.
I havn't seen any tests which came from dealer lots, e.g. not hand
picked units from the manufacture. The two long term tests I have seen
for the Max, were dealer cars.
>> But that isn't comparing the car's abilities. Anyone can compare
>> non-stock to stock.. but jeez wizz, that's lame.
>OK, whatever. Sounds like you're afraid to admit a GTP would probably
>outrun even a 5-speed SE at the top end without the limiter. I'd say
>what the car can do without the limit is more of what it's true
>"abilities" are.
I would not compare modified to stock. Hell, if we allow that, someone
could easily rip out everything, put in a RWD Borg6speed, with a blown
454...
>
>> "almost 40mph", depending on who you believe, the SE has reached from
>> 143 to 146mph in top end speed.
>Well at this point I sure as hell don't believe *you*.
Hey, one can say MT doesn't know what they're talking about, or C/D..
but when they all report similar numbers.. the burden is upon you.
>
>> The BMW M3 sedan also lacks IRS, and uses a similar multi link, rear
>> beam suspension.. its the tuning that matters.. the GTP is very unrefined
>> in the handling department.
>Oh, similar eh? Then why the M3 described as having "4-wheel
>independent suspension (front - strut type; rear - central link)" by
>Edmunds? And the Maxima is listed as "independent strut front
>suspension, rear Multi-Link Beam suspension" ..?
Hey, I was just looking at the BMW Brochure. Admittedly, a 96. In
addition, both C/D AND MT call it a "rear multi link system".
>And where, oh where do you get this scientific information about the
>unrefined GTP handling..?
Perhaps you should try driving more cars? I'm sure after only driving
a festiva, a mustang feels "refined".. but you know what? after
driving a better car.. the mustang feels alot cruder..
Edward Kim
ews.wco.com> <5i1f5r$4...@cambridge.emi.net>
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology:
Distribution:
Keith M Ryan (*wo...@emi.net) wrote:
: Perhaps you should try driving more cars? I'm sure after only driving
: a festiva, a mustang feels "refined".. but you know what? after
: driving a better car.. the mustang feels alot cruder..
Guess you haven't driven a Mustang lately? :)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+Edward Kim +
+Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 +
+uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!+
+1996 Mustang GT White/Black interior 5-speed +
+SVO 3.55s, SVO subframes, K&N w/o air intake silencer +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bill Stanton
On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 23:42:07 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
> Yea well, so for, these mysterious GTP's havn't appeared.
Check your local Pontiac dealer.
> I absolutely
> devestated one GTP while hoping thru traffic. We'ld slow down for
> them, but immediately when it opened, I'm in 3rd or even 2nd,<snip>
First off, I didn't realize your SE was modified. So big deal, you can
maybe beat a GTP (I still think you were racing a GT) with your
special modified SE.
> >Who's comparing modified cars to stock, now?
>
> The SMX can be ordered thru any Nissan dealerships, and around 20 or
> so have them on their lots. Its no different than purchasing a WS6
> Camaro or the like.
This is not true. The SMX is not a standard option like the WS6. You
cannot look up the SMX in price guides such as Edmunds. Isn't the SMX
a Steve Millen car? That's like comparing a Saleen Mustang to a stock
Camaro. They're aftermarket cars. Yes, SLP does the mods for the
Camaro SS, but the SS is an actual GM product with a GM code. Not so
with the SMX.
>the SMX package would not have made much difference in
> the 0-60, they were mostly handling and braking improvements.
Then you wouldn't be able to 'DEVESTATE' a new GTP as you say. Either
it wasn't a GTP or he wasn't racing.
> >> Why dont we wait till one of the mags tests a non manufactures
> >> tweaked GTP; and an off the lot vehicle? eh?
> I havn't seen any tests which came from dealer lots, e.g. not hand
> picked units from the manufacture. The two long term tests I have seen
> for the Max, were dealer cars.
Then I guess all the GTP tests were factory tuned and all the Maxima
tests have been just everyday Maximas, eh?
> I would not compare modified to stock. Hell, if we allow that, someone
> could easily rip out everything, put in a RWD Borg6speed, with a blown
Whee... We're spinning the wheel now, aren't we? SMX. Modified Nissan
Maxima. Stock vs. Stock, an SE would not do what you claim yours did.
> Hey, I was just looking at the BMW Brochure. Admittedly, a 96. In
> addition, both C/D AND MT call it a "rear multi link system".
Then get your facts straight. The BMW and Maxima do not share 'similar
non-IRS' rear suspensions.
> Perhaps you should try driving more cars? I'm sure after only driving
> a festiva, a mustang feels "refined".. but you know what? after
> driving a better car.. the mustang feels alot cruder..
If you knew how many and which cars I have owned and driven
extensively, you'd feel pretty dumb making that suggestion.
Bill Stanton
On 4 Apr 1997 02:09:36 GMT, gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu (Edward Kim)
wrote:
> Guess you haven't driven a Mustang lately? :)
I don't think he's driven much of anything except his own two cars.
Wolph
> On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:19:36 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > "The fastest produced sedans".. not "one of the fastest.." but "THE"
fastest.
>
> Uh, you haven't seen too many Cadillac STS's, have you? Or a Benz C36?
> Hell, even some of those newer Volvos...
*cough* You have dropped the price limitations. I'ld take my friends
Renntech Mercedes, if you wish to have price no object.
>
> > If GM intentionally gives the GTP a crutch to hobble around on, doesn't
> > diminish my right to buy a car with a manual.
>
> Does this mean that Nissan has hobbled the version of the SE and GLE
> with standard auto trans? I wish your right to type was diminished.
Yes. The gear ratio's are completely different, its desiged for luxury
and smoothness, more so than performance. If you'll notice, the performance
is substantially different between the two. In fact, Nissan could easily
make the SE auto to be faster, by simply having a similar gearing as
the manual; but they choose not to.
> > The car's capabilities are 108mph. You drive it off the lot, and it
> > will only do 108mph.
>
> I'm beginning to think your synapses have speed limiters on them. You
> have been repeatedly told that the GTP is not limited to 108mph but
> 127mph. The Buick Regal GS is limited to 108mph.
Look at the topic.. GS.
> > GM knows the GTP is *unsafe* to travel at a
> > speed greater than the limitor; and they're only covering thier ass
> > from lawsuits.
>
> *smacking you upside the head*
>
> It's the TIRES! You know, the speed rating on those little bands of
> rubber and steel belts that that are filled with air and are wrapped
> around the things that spin called WHEELS.
Are you saying that a car is drivable without any wheels on it? I am
talking the CAR, as a whole package.. as you drive it off the lot.
DUH.
> Some LT1 V8-equipped F-Bodies (you know, Camaro/Firebird) that used to
> come with H-rated tires had the same sort of "LIMITOR" on them. Do you
> seriously think that they were incapable of speeds in excess of
> 108mph?
Yes, in stock form, they are incapable of speeds in excess of 108mph.
Wolph
In article <5i1nt0$f...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu
(Edward Kim) wrote:
> ews.wco.com> <5i1f5r$4...@cambridge.emi.net>
> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology:
> Distribution:
>
> Keith M Ryan (*wo...@emi.net) wrote:
> : Perhaps you should try driving more cars? I'm sure after only driving
> : a festiva, a mustang feels "refined".. but you know what? after
> : driving a better car.. the mustang feels alot cruder..
>
> Guess you haven't driven a Mustang lately? :)
In comparison to other sports car, and talking about the handling refine
ment? Yes. The interior, and overall fit and finish thou, IS alot better.
It seems more of a nice grant touring car..
Wolph
> Your full of crap boy. Ive driven both the gtp and the maxima. The maxima
> is like driving a economy car as far as performance compared to the gtp.
I must your admire your ability to substantiate your opinion. Foolishly,
I thought independant tests, real world time slips, and real world encounters
met more than simply slinging around a few cuss words, and adhominem
attacks. I'll try to not confuse you with facts next time, and simply
call you names..
Wolph
> > Well so far, the GTP, while its been a fair race, can't keep up with my
> > $20,500 Maxima SE 5speed. And, when I was hoping arounding in traffic
> > with one, every time the road cleared out, I'ld devestate it, as I'm
> > already in 2nd or 3rd, while his slushbox was lugging in overdrive for
> > a half second or two..
>
> First off, show me anything but a USED Maxima SE for $20,500.
I'll show you my bill of sale, clearly showing $20,500 ( including
destination ) for my 1996 Maxima SE 5speed sedan. Is that good enough?
> Second,
> you were probably racing an older GT, or a new standard GT without the
> 240hp engine. It's very difficult to tell them apart other than the
> GTP badge on the side, visible only upon close inspection.
Hello.. I said GTP.. not GT.. I know fully well the difference.
> I've only see one or two on the road myself.
naw.. Dealer right next to me are selling them. Hell, I personally
think the 4 door looks extremely good. One of the few US cars which
catch my eyes. I'll be honest and admit, I wished the exterior of
my Maxima looked like it! I prefer my interior alot more thou.
Wolph
> A stock SE or otherwise 190hp 5-speed (and esp. automatic) will not
> walk away from a new 240hp GTP. You and the other guy simply were not
> racing new GTP's. Remember the badging, which is the only difference
> between the cars.
Anyone get the impression, that Bill is sitting cross legged in the
center of the room, his hands covering his ears, and singing the
Power Ranger song, as loud as he can, to drown out all sense of reason?
> The car definitely puts out 240hp. Try driving one before you get too
> flamboyant in your deriding commentary.
And evertime that I tell him, I have driven three different GTP's,
on several occasions, he stops singing Power Rangers, and starts
singing some other song even louder..
Wolph
> On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:42:26 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
>
> > Oh stop lying. Edmunds lists $21,919 for the base GXE, $23,919 for the
> > SE 5speed, and $24,719 for the SE auto. If you wish to nitpick options,
> > lets compare the cost between the SE 5speed fully loaded, and the
> > cost of retrofitting a Borg 5speed to the GTP!
>
> People who are insecure in their car choices are so amusing sometimes.
>
> Edmunds lists the SE auto with a $23,679 BASE MSRP. That hardly means
> anything, because we're comparing SIMILARLY EQUIPPED CARS. That means
> an auto SE with an auto GTP.
> It's the work of a frantic mind to say that you must somehow compare a
> retrofitted 5-speed GTP to a 5-speed SE when Nissan very conveniently
> sells an SE with automatic as standard.
But GM doesn't even give you an option of a 5speed. That's precludes it
from every being considered a serious performance car.
As is, you are STILL lying, and being dishonest. i have posted quite a
few thigns, that GM doesn't even BOTHER to offer you. You do not add the
price to add the features of the Maxima, unto the GTP.
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:40:18 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> But GM doesn't even give you an option of a 5speed. That's precludes it
> from every being considered a serious performance car.
What are you talking about? A Buick Grand National, GMC Syclone, GMC
Typhoon... These aren't serious performance cars? They may not be
"SPORTY" but neither is a Maxima when placed next to a Z3. A serious
performance car is not defined by its available transmission,.
> As is, you are STILL lying, and being dishonest. i have posted quite a
> few thigns, that GM doesn't even BOTHER to offer you. You do not add the
> price to add the features of the Maxima, unto the GTP.
All the "thigns" you've posted have been incorrect, and I have refuted
them with facts taken from price guides and magazine data. If the
definition of disproving anti-domestic-car-biased bullshit is lying,
then spank me, 'cuz my pants are on fire. You're right about one
thing, you did post quite a few thigns.
There's a cool little thing called reality. If you can prove me wrong,
please summon up the price list that places the GTP at the same price
as the Maxima SE Automatic when similarly equipped. Otherwise, add
"unto" me an apology for calling me a liar.
Bill Stanton
>>"The fastest produced sedans".. not "one of the fastest.." but "THE"
>> fastest.
<snipped part about Caddys, etc.>
> *cough* You have dropped the price limitations. I'ld take my friends
> Renntech Mercedes, if you wish to have price no object.
Ah, but you gave no such limitation when you made the above statement.
See?
> Yes. The gear ratio's are completely different, its desiged for luxury
> and smoothness, more so than performance.
This doesn't change the fact that Nissan makes an SE car with auto as
standard equipment, that it is much more expensive than a GTP and that
it isn't competitive with it in terms of acceleration.
> In fact, Nissan could easily
> make the SE auto to be faster, by simply having a similar gearing as
> the manual; but they choose not to.
They couldn't have made it as fast as the GTP, considering its 50hp
shortcoming.
> Look at the topic.. GS.
Look at your own posts. GTP. See below.
> > > GM knows the GTP is *unsafe* to travel at a
> > > speed greater than the limitor; and they're only covering thier ass
> > > from lawsuits.
<snipped comment about it being the tires>
> Are you saying that a car is drivable without any wheels on it? I am
> talking the CAR, as a whole package.. as you drive it off the lot.
> DUH.
DUH is the most honest thing you've said so far. You said the GTP is
unsafe to travel at speeds greater than the limiTOR, which is not
true. Even with the current tires, the thing could probably nail 140+
without the limiTOR. The speed limit on most tires is pretty
conservative. It doesn't mean the tire will fly apart the second you
go one mile over the limit.
> Yes, in stock form, they are incapable of speeds in excess of 108mph.
You know I meant wiithout the limiTOR. My point is that both the GTP
and limiTORED F-Bodies are capable of speed far in excess of their
limiTOR.
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:36:15 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> I'll show you my bill of sale, clearly showing $20,500 ( including
> destination ) for my 1996 Maxima SE 5speed sedan. Is that good enough?
The base MSRP for a 1996 Maxima SE was $22,679 with no options.
Destination is $405. Regional emissions is probably another $100-$150.
So you either bought a demo (used) or you bought a car with absolutely
no options (like ABS) for not one penny over invoice. Or you're full
of it.
> Hello.. I said GTP.. not GT.. I know fully well the difference.
I doubt it.
> naw.. Dealer right next to me are selling them. Hell, I personally
> think the 4 door looks extremely good. One of the few US cars which
> catch my eyes. I'll be honest and admit,<snip>
There's a first time for everything.
Wolph
> On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 23:42:07 GMT, *wo...@emi.net (Keith M Ryan) wrote:
>
>
> > Yea well, so for, these mysterious GTP's havn't appeared.
>
> Check your local Pontiac dealer.
I have driven the GTP, I have also driven the GS by Buick. Those
exist, and I've raced them. Hell, even set up a race with a freind
of a friend in one. But, i havn't seen these magical GTP's you
describe, you know, the ones which spout wings and can fly?
> > I absolutely
> > devestated one GTP while hoping thru traffic. We'ld slow down for
> > them, but immediately when it opened, I'm in 3rd or even 2nd,<snip>
>
> First off, I didn't realize your SE was modified. So big deal, you can
> maybe beat a GTP (I still think you were racing a GT) with your
> special modified SE.
Are you suffering your an inability to read? I never said my SE was
modified. That is someone ELSE.. DUH..
> > >Who's comparing modified cars to stock, now?
> >
> > The SMX can be ordered thru any Nissan dealerships, and around 20 or
> > so have them on their lots. Its no different than purchasing a WS6
> > Camaro or the like.
>
> This is not true. The SMX is not a standard option like the WS6. You
> cannot look up the SMX in price guides such as Edmunds. Isn't the SMX
> a Steve Millen car? That's like comparing a Saleen Mustang to a stock
> Camaro. They're aftermarket cars. Yes, SLP does the mods for the
> Camaro SS, but the SS is an actual GM product with a GM code. Not so
> with the SMX.
You can place an order throu a dealership, just like the SS. I make
no comment upon the reliability of Edmunds.
> >the SMX package would not have made much difference in
> > the 0-60, they were mostly handling and braking improvements.
>
> Then you wouldn't be able to 'DEVESTATE' a new GTP as you say. Either
> it wasn't a GTP or he wasn't racing.
Um.. you dont believe that even if the cars were completely equal,
that I'm in 2nd or 3rd, and he's in overdrive would not enable me
to devesate him? You defy all logic.
> > >> Why dont we wait till one of the mags tests a non manufactures
> > >> tweaked GTP; and an off the lot vehicle? eh?
>
> > I havn't seen any tests which came from dealer lots, e.g. not hand
> > picked units from the manufacture. The two long term tests I have seen
> > for the Max, were dealer cars.
>
> Then I guess all the GTP tests were factory tuned and all the Maxima
> tests have been just everyday Maximas, eh?
Does this question stem from your inability to comprehend what you
are reading, or from your poor short term memory?
"The two long term tests I have seen for the Max, were dealer cars".
Now, compare that to you question on "all the Maxima".. No, obviously
the SMX, as well as several of the initial cars, were manufactured
prep'ed vehicles. Almost all new car reviews are manufactured prep'ed
for testing, its only after they have been out for a while, for longer
term tests, do magazines get dealer lot samples. For example, the
first production GTP review ( likewise with the Max) was out before
they were even on the dealer lots..
Of course, you'll probably not understand a word that I just said.
> > I would not compare modified to stock. Hell, if we allow that, someone
> > could easily rip out everything, put in a RWD Borg6speed, with a blown
>
> Whee... We're spinning the wheel now, aren't we? SMX. Modified Nissan
> Maxima. Stock vs. Stock, an SE would not do what you claim yours did.
If you purchase the parts aftermarket, it's considered modified. If you
order it thru your Nissan dealership; its considered "stock", both from
a legalize standpoint ( e.g. vehicle registration, etc ); and from a
practical standpoint, e.g. warranty coverage, etc.
>
> > Hey, I was just looking at the BMW Brochure. Admittedly, a 96. In
> > addition, both C/D AND MT call it a "rear multi link system".
>
> Then get your facts straight. The BMW and Maxima do not share 'similar
> non-IRS' rear suspensions.
Then get YOUR facts straight. Simply to say an IRS is alwasy better than
a non IRS smacks in the fact of real world examples. Its the tuning which
plays a large part of the car's abilities.
> > Perhaps you should try driving more cars? I'm sure after only driving
> > a festiva, a mustang feels "refined".. but you know what? after
> > driving a better car.. the mustang feels alot cruder..
>
> If you knew how many and which cars I have owned and driven
> extensively, you'd feel pretty dumb making that suggestion.
True, you can drive them without learning anything.
Wolph
In article <33463f6c...@news.wco.com>, *bsta...@wco.com wrote:
> There's a cool little thing called reality. If you can prove me wrong,
> please summon up the price list that places the GTP at the same price
> as the Maxima SE Automatic when similarly equipped. Otherwise, add
> "unto" me an apology for calling me a liar.
Your definition of 'similarly equiped" is based on adding features on
the GTP to the Maxima. It does not include the cost of adding the
features found on the maxima, to the GTP. So yes, in your narrow
and blind defintion, it may be so. But if you were honest enough,
to include the cost of everything the Maxima has, you'ld see its
more comparable.
Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:03:02 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> I have driven the GTP, I have also driven the GS by Buick. Those
> exist, and I've raced them. Hell, even set up a race with a freind
> of a friend in one. But, i havn't seen these magical GTP's you
> describe, you know, the ones which spout wings and can fly?
You've driven a GS? Interesting, which dealer and in which city? Did
the GTP you drove have traction control? Did the GS? Did the GS have a
heads up display? Sorry, I find this highly unlikely.
> > > I absolutely
> > > devestated one GTP while hoping thru traffic. We'ld slow down for
> > > them, but immediately when it opened, I'm in 3rd or even 2nd,<snip>
<snipped comment about modified SE>
> Are you suffering your an inability to read? I never said my SE was
> modified. That is someone ELSE.. DUH..
Then your brian has been modified, because your SE wouldn't
"DEVESTATE" a GTP as you claim. BTW, are you suffering 'your an'
inability to type or spell?
> You can place an order throu a dealership, just like the SS. I make
> no comment upon the reliability of Edmunds.
They seem to be making a comment on your reliability. I've never even
seen an SMX. It's a modified Maxima, period. Comparing it to a stock
GTP is the same as you trying to say the GTP needs a 5-speed to
compare to the SE. In other words, nonsense.
> Um.. you dont believe that even if the cars were completely equal,
> that I'm in 2nd or 3rd, and he's in overdrive would not enable me
> to devesate him? You defy all logic.
You don't race cars, do you? I'll explain how the automatic works. You
pound on the accelerator, the supercharger spools up and the car
(wonder of wonders) DOWNSHIFTS. Automatic cars are notorious at the
dragstrip for being easier to race, more consistent and in some cases,
as fast or faster than their 5 or 6-speed counterparts in newer cars.
> Does this question stem from your inability to comprehend what you
> are reading, or from your poor short term memory?
> "The two long term tests I have seen for the Max, were dealer cars".
I am referring to your comment that the GTP tests were factory
modified in some way.
> Now, compare that to you question on "all the Maxima".. No, obviously
> the SMX, as well as several of the initial cars, were manufactured
> prep'ed vehicles. Almost all new car reviews are manufactured prep'ed
> for testing, its only after they have been out for a while, for longer
> term tests, do magazines get dealer lot samples. For example, the
> first production GTP review ( likewise with the Max) was out before
> they were even on the dealer lots..
And every GS and GTP test I have seen since the car was release has
been identical to the first ones (6.6 0-60, 15.0-15.2 1/4mi).
Interestingly, the Maxima tests don't seem to have changed at all from
the first factory prepped cars.
> Of course, you'll probably not understand a word that I just said.
Well I admit it would be easier if you had a better grasp of the
English language.
> If you purchase the parts aftermarket, it's considered modified. If you
> order it thru your Nissan dealership; its considered "stock", both from
> a legalize standpoint ( e.g. vehicle registration, etc ); and from a
> practical standpoint, e.g. warranty coverage, etc.
A tuner car is not a stock Nissan factory car. A WS6 has a GM part
number on it. A Maxima SMX, if I'm not mistaken, does not.
> Then get YOUR facts straight. Simply to say an IRS is alwasy better than
> a non IRS smacks in the fact of real world examples. Its the tuning which
> plays a large part of the car's abilities.
This is bullshit. Show me an example where IRS is defeated in general
handling tests by non-IRS cars. Of all the recent tests of the Maxima
I've seen, they've ALL bitched about the lack or IRS. My facts are
just fine.
> > If you knew how many and which cars I have owned and driven
> > extensively, you'd feel pretty dumb making that suggestion.
>
> True, you can drive them without learning anything.
Better than claiming to have driven or raced against cars that I
haven't.
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:53:32 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Your definition of 'similarly equiped" is based on adding features on
> the GTP to the Maxima.
So what should 'similarly equipped' mean in your view?
>It does not include the cost of adding the
> features found on the maxima, to the GTP.
Yes, it does. And vice versa, like ABS.
> So yes, in your narrow
> and blind defintion, it may be so. But if you were honest enough,
> to include the cost of everything the Maxima has, you'ld see its
> more comparable.
>
> Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
> than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
You're the one being dishonest when you claim that you can buy a new
Maxima SE for $20,500. In fact, I am going for a walk right now. I'll
be going right by the Nissan dealer to pick up my 300ZX from its
scheduled maintenance. I'll be looking into both the SMX availability
and this $20,500 pricetag on any of their available SE's.
Why do I doubt I will find either?
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:00:30 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Yes, can you name a faster, all around 4 door sedan in the 20 to 25k
> market? Hell, even in the 20 to 30k market.. The Impala SS would have
> come close, thou in stock form, its a tick slower.. But, that's been
> cancelled, so you really can't talk about it..
Yes, but "faster" and "quicker" are two different things. I would
actually bet on a GTP or GS being faster than a 5-speed Maxima in 0-60
and 1/4mi. on average, owing simply to its traction control and
automatic tranny. Neither the GTP nor the GS can attain the 140mph top
end of the Maxima (which I sort of doubt even it can, but anyway), but
many other cars in that range probably can (I don't feel like looking
this one up). And I might remind you that a fully loaded SE is hardly
a $20,000 car, no matter what you claim you paid for yours.
> And you will see that I never denied it. How stupid of you to make
> strawman arguements.
And you aren't? *yawn*
> Maximum speed/performance wasn't the design goal. If they wanted that,
> you'ld see the I6 TT found in the GTR.
Oh sure, they'd have put the Skyline engine in the Maxima. I think
that car is as fast as they want it to be. If they took the I6 TT
they'd probably have to build a whole new tranny for the Maxima, since
it isn't AWD like the Skyline. I don't think they would ever consider
it even if they wanted the Maxima to be the fastest production sedan
on Earth.
> Yes it is. How do you propose to get the GTP/GS to travel faster than
> its respective speed limitor, without modifying the vehicle? Shove
> it off a cliff or push it with a Porsche 911??? Or, are you falling
> into your fallacious arguements of comparing stock versus modified?
Why not, when you compare SMX to stock GTP's?
> No, but it means its less safe than speed rated tires.. That "less
> safe" falls below wwhat GM and the govn't views as an acceptable
> risk. Now, you may disagree at what point the line is drawn, but its
> drawn, never the less.
<other stuff snipped>
My point was that, without the limiter, a GTP or GS is capable of
safely attaining speeds equal or greater than the Maxima.
You want to play logic shuffleboard and say "well, with tires..." or
"stock vs. modified" and that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact
that if you were to simply buy V or Z rated tires and remove the
limiter, you'd be matching that SE or SMX or watever you like stride
for stride.
Bill Stanton
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:48:33 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
> Anyone get the impression, that Bill is sitting cross legged in the
> center of the room, his hands covering his ears, and singing the
> Power Ranger song, as loud as he can, to drown out all sense of reason?
Anyone get the impression that Wolph sits in a rusted-out '77 Datsun
B210 that's up on bricks in his back yard, pretending he's in an SMX
that he doesn't own and seeing phantom GTP's and GS's receeding in the
empty rear-view mirror socket, while making raspberry acceleration
sounds before mommy calls him in for Noodle-O's?
> And evertime that I tell him, I have driven three different GTP's,
> on several occasions, he stops singing Power Rangers, and starts
> singing some other song even louder..
OK, Wolph. Nissan Maximas are free, can be had for a few old Blue Chip
Stamps or a boot in the ass, whichever you can come up with. GTP/GS
cars are slow as hell, probably fair game for the local ice cream
truck. The Maxima actually has a solid gold-plated platinum
undercarriage, goes 0-60 in slightly slower than the speed of light,
has independent everything and is built with a Star Trek replicator in
the front dash. ...And has tires that never go flat.
I may be singing Power Rangers, but you're singing the Nissan
Nationalist Anthem.
Wolph
> >>"The fastest produced sedans".. not "one of the fastest.." but "THE"
> >> fastest.
> <snipped part about Caddys, etc.>
> > *cough* You have dropped the price limitations. I'ld take my friends
> > Renntech Mercedes, if you wish to have price no object.
>
> Ah, but you gave no such limitation when you made the above statement.
> See?
Yes, can you name a faster, all around 4 door sedan in the 20 to 25k
market? Hell, even in the 20 to 30k market.. The Impala SS would have
come close, thou in stock form, its a tick slower.. But, that's been
cancelled, so you really can't talk about it..
> > Yes. The gear ratio's are completely different, its desiged for luxury
> > and smoothness, more so than performance.
>
> This doesn't change the fact that Nissan makes an SE car with auto as
> standard equipment, that it is much more expensive than a GTP and that
> it isn't competitive with it in terms of acceleration.
And you will see that I never denied it. How stupid of you to make
strawman arguements.
> > In fact, Nissan could easily
> > make the SE auto to be faster, by simply having a similar gearing as
> > the manual; but they choose not to.
>
> They couldn't have made it as fast as the GTP, considering its 50hp
> shortcoming.
Maximum speed/performance wasn't the design goal. If they wanted that,
you'ld see the I6 TT found in the GTR.
> > > > GM knows the GTP is *unsafe* to travel at a
> > > > speed greater than the limitor; and they're only covering thier ass
> > > > from lawsuits.
> <snipped comment about it being the tires>
> > Are you saying that a car is drivable without any wheels on it? I am
> > talking the CAR, as a whole package.. as you drive it off the lot.
> > DUH.
>
> DUH is the most honest thing you've said so far. You said the GTP is
> unsafe to travel at speeds greater than the limiTOR, which is not
> true.
Yes it is. How do you propose to get the GTP/GS to travel faster than
its respective speed limitor, without modifying the vehicle? Shove
it off a cliff or push it with a Porsche 911??? Or, are you falling
into your fallacious arguements of comparing stock versus modified?
> Even with the current tires, the thing could probably nail 140+
> without the limiTOR. The speed limit on most tires is pretty
> conservative. It doesn't mean the tire will fly apart the second you
> go one mile over the limit.
No, but it means its less safe than speed rated tires.. That "less
safe" falls below wwhat GM and the govn't views as an acceptable
risk. Now, you may disagree at what point the line is drawn, but its
drawn, never the less.
> > Yes, in stock form, they are incapable of speeds in excess of 108mph.
>
> You know I meant wiithout the limiTOR. My point is that both the GTP
> and limiTORED F-Bodies are capable of speed far in excess of their
> limiTOR.
Sure.. plenty of vehicles can travel faster than what they can safely
travel at. What's your point?
Sergey Macheret
Wolph wrote:
<snip>
>
> But GM doesn't even give you an option of a 5speed. That's precludes it
> from every being considered a serious performance car.
>
I'm really curious: are you considering the RENNTech SLR7.4
not to be "a serious performance car" because of its auto transmission?
Sergey Macheret
Fred737
I get a kick on how some of you jump on the word "modified" as it pertains
to the maxima. As if we have put a super charger, or turboed the thing.
"Thats no fare, the maxima is "modified" Give me a break. Millens has
gotten one up to almost 300 hp, a pace car there working on for an indy
series, but as far as straight line performance, the only mods availible
for the maxima are intake and a flow through mufler. On my 300 turbo these
mods gave me 40hp, but on my maxima se 5spd its only about 12, maybe 15 at
the most. The biggest benifit is in the way the car sounds. My best time
in the 1/4 before and after the mods were 15.1 and 15.0. At one point
Steve Millens did think they had the computer ready, and I was one of the
first to get one. Now this made a big differance. They got an extra 22 hp
from just the computer alone, and combined with the intake and exhaust, a
total of 36 hp more. Unfortunately the computer lit my check engine light
so I had to return it and they are still working on the problem. But I did
get to run it at the track and best time was 14.7. Point is, at 240hp the
GTP should run better than say a 205 hp maxima but it doesnt. I also have
run 3, and yes they were GTP's, in my max. and won hands down. Two at
lights and humiliated one on the freeway. As for the big bad Impala SS as
someone mentioned, now theres a joke. Slow and lousy gas mileage, what
more could you ask for. I had a great time with the SS club of Houston
down at the track about 9 months ago. Stock or modified, the maxima out
runs both these pony powered cars. By the way, my 300 turbo is at 440hp,
now THATS modified.
Fre...@aol.com
95 MAXIMA SE
95 300 ZX TWIN TURBO
B-737 AIRLINE PILOT(fastest thing I've driven)
Bill Stanton
So I stopped by the Nissan dealer.
The following MSRP's:
5-speed SE not fully loaded: $26,500.
SE Auto, loaded: $29,000
SE Auto, not quite similarly loaded: $28,600.
...I didn't write these down, so I'm rounding them off a bit, but the
$29K car was actually over $29K, not $28,900 or anything.
The salesperson didn't know a damned thing about the SMX, which
doesn't really prove much except that it isn't a factory option like
the WS6 or SS package.
David Foley
Fred737 <fre...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970405151...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Give me a break. Millens has
> gotten one up to almost 300 hp, a pace car there working on for an indy
> series, but as far as straight line performance, the only mods availible
> for the maxima are intake and a flow through mufler. On my 300 turbo
these
> mods gave me 40hp, but on my maxima se 5spd its only about 12, maybe 15
at
> the most. The biggest benifit is in the way the car sounds. My best time
> in the 1/4 before and after the mods were 15.1 and 15.0. At one point
> Steve Millens did think they had the computer ready, and I was one of the
> first to get one. Now this made a big differance. They got an extra 22 hp
> from just the computer alone, and combined with the intake and exhaust, a
> total of 36 hp more.
Good for Steve Millens, it says a lot that he can make a living trying to
get Nissans perform as well as Pontiacs.
> get to run it at the track and best time was 14.7. Point is, at 240hp the
> GTP should run better than say a 205 hp maxima but it doesnt. I also have
> run 3, and yes they were GTP's, in my max. and won hands down. Two at
> lights and humiliated one on the freeway.
Good for you, it says a lot that you feel empowered by "humiliating"
people. I do, however, recall a recent issue of C&D (cover title was
"Sedans for The Working Rich", dated about August '96) and the GTP put
through faster times than the Maxima SE. All the other magazines have
pegged the GTP with 6.6/15.0 times - you know, comparable or better than
the Maxima SE. Also, do you realize that this car is in its first year of
production, and do you realize that the only thing that will happen to its'
performance is consistent improvement. Now that I think about it, you
probably should get all your "humiliating" of GTPs over with now, because
it's not going to last very long (and it is not very believeable, either,
for some reason).
> Stock or modified, the maxima out runs both these pony powered cars.
Wow, you have one stock and one modified ? We are all impressed.
> By the way, my 300 turbo is at 440hp, now THATS modified.
It would need to be, because MT seems to think that the $42K 300ZX Turbo is
absolutely matched by the $25K Formula WS6 and humiliated (hahaha) by the
$30K SLP Firehawk. Harrrumph.
>
> Fre...@aol.com
> 95 MAXIMA SE
> 95 300 ZX TWIN TURBO
> B-737 AIRLINE PILOT(fastest thing I've driven)
I hope to God you fly planes with more maturity than you drive cars ;)
Edward Kim
ef64.1...@news.wco.com> <*Wolph-01049...@cnc02518.concentric.net> <3344106f...@news.wco.com> <*Wolph-04049...@cnc02553.concentric.net> <33463f6c...@news.wco.com> <*Wolph-04049...@cnc02562.concentric.net>
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology:
Distribution:
Wolph (*Wo...@emi.net) wrote:
: Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
: than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
My father went to the local Nissan dealership to try to work out a deal on
a '97 Maxima SE. He is replacing a '94 ES300. Well, my father says that
there was no way in h*ll that he could get a brand-spankin' new '97 SE for
20,500. He looked at some with very few options and the 5-speed and I
think that it stickered for around 25K. And the auto SEs were in the
upper 20s. So is that a brand new Maxima SE that you got for 20,500? I
find that hard to believe.
Bill Stanton
On 5 Apr 97 20:07:49 GMT, "David Foley" <df2...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Good for you, it says a lot that you feel empowered by "humiliating"
> people. I do, however, recall a recent issue of C&D (cover title was
> "Sedans for The Working Rich", dated about August '96) and the GTP put
> through faster times than the Maxima SE.
You're absolutely right, I've been having a hell of a time with him
and his buddy (or alias, perhaps?) Wolph over in the 6.6 0-60 3800II
thread. You should check it out...
> > By the way, my 300 turbo is at 440hp, now THATS modified.
>
> It would need to be, because MT seems to think that the $42K 300ZX Turbo is
> absolutely matched by the $25K Formula WS6 and humiliated (hahaha) by the
> $30K SLP Firehawk. Harrrumph.
Hang on a sec..! The 300ZX TT is not matched by a WS6. In raw
acceleration, TT's go 13.8 or 13.9 in stock shape (mine ran a
13.9/103mph a week after I bought it at the local slightly uphill
track). I owned a '94 Formula 6-speed for a year and test drove a WS6
before trading the '94 in on the '95 300ZX. With an $80 air filter
only, I've now piloted it to a best of 13.80/104mph.
Let me say that the LT1 F-Bodies are hot, hot cars. They can do a
1/4mi. in 14.0 in 305hp form (13.9 if optimally driven), but their
handling leaves something to be desired. Plus, the fit & finish of the
car is rather bad, as is the overall build quality. My Formula had to
visit the service dept. more times than I care to remember. Among the
replaced items were: 6-speed tranny, rear main seal, a/c compressor,
stereo (3x), seat covers, door hinges, bumper paint, bumper mounts,
differential plates, differential lube (several times), driveshaft
(replaced with 1LE version from prev. gen. Z28) and more.
Furthermore, a $30K Firehawk isn't going to humiliate any 5-speed
TT... Motor Trend tested one in 1995 and it only got a 13.9/103.6mph,
with skidpad and slalom numbers still below those of the 300ZX. The
only thing the F-Bodies will definitely do better is braking. My
Formula could stop on a thin dime from 80mph with no fade, no
slippage, nothing. You could literally stand on those brakes and watch
as your eyeballs bulged from the deceleration. The 300ZX's brakes are
dated, underachievers by comparison. The F-Bodies also have a lot more
in the way of nifty amenities, such as red LED flood lighting on the
doors, a decent stereo (compared to the Bose crap in the Z), a truly
ingenious method of locking in the t-tops and very hot exterior
styling. I still miss the sleek black look of my Formula a lot. But
they're also more expensive these days. I was at a Pontiac dealer a
couple weeks ago and just a regular T/A with 285hp fully loaded was
over $28,000 by itself! Yikes.
Now, I know this other guy is full of it and that a GTP of course
matches or slightly exceeds a normal unmodified SE 5-speed (and romps
heavily on the automatic) in terms of acceleration, but let's not get
too hasty and decry the 300ZX TT.
Now wait a year or so and show me what the new LS1 SS and WS6 cars can
do. I'd be willing to guess my TT will have a difficult time keeping
up with those. And the new base V8 LS1 cars will also be far more
threatening than the current 285hp LT1's. I also like the new Z28 look
MUCH better than '93-'97. Thank God GM finally did away with the
dunken headlamps!
Anyways...
Keith M Ryan
gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu (Edward Kim) wrote:
>Wolph (*Wo...@emi.net) wrote:
>: Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
>: than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
>My father went to the local Nissan dealership to try to work out a deal on
>a '97 Maxima SE. He is replacing a '94 ES300. Well, my father says that
>there was no way in h*ll that he could get a brand-spankin' new '97 SE for
>20,500. He looked at some with very few options and the 5-speed and I
>think that it stickered for around 25K. And the auto SEs were in the
>upper 20s. So is that a brand new Maxima SE that you got for 20,500? I
>find that hard to believe.
Yep.. 1996 Max SE 5speed, purchased in April 96 ( almost at its one
year anniversary,a nd no problems to be found.. )
But what can I say.. some people are better negotiators than others.
If you are even bothering to look at the sticker, that problem means
you do not know the actual costs before you go in to look. I find that
if dont look at the sticker, and just know the prices when you go in
there; the salesman knows you are alot more serious. e.g. do all your
research before hand.
Please remove the asterik (*) from my email address, if you wish to email me.
Keith M Ryan
"David Foley" <df2...@ibm.net> wrote:
>Good for you, it says a lot that you feel empowered by "humiliating"
>people. I do, however, recall a recent issue of C&D (cover title was
>"Sedans for The Working Rich", dated about August '96) and the GTP put
>pegged the GTP with 6.6/15.0 times - you know, comparable or better than
>the Maxima SE. Also, do you realize that this car is in its first year of
>production, and do you realize that the only thing that will happen to its'
>performance is consistent improvement. Now that I think about it, you
>probably should get all your "humiliating" of GTPs over with now, because
>it's not going to last very long (and it is not very believeable, either,
>for some reason).
I know of no plans of Pontiac to offer a manul in the GTP. Yes, its
possible for them to up the ante in simply 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
But, I have alwasy felt that only pussies slam on the brakes at 1/4
mile. For supposively having "similar" or even having "better" numbers
than my Max, if you ever are at speed, you will simply humiliate the
GTP while he's stuck in overdrive. That's the beauty of a manual, you
have full control over the transmission of the car. Faster into a
turn, faster thru the apex, and faster out of it.
btw: easiest way to tell the difference between an GTP and a GT off
the line ( if you dont see the badge.. ) The GTP driver is probably
sitting and spinning; as he's not skilled enough to get a good luanch
without loosing traction. The GT, at least, has traction control.
Sloan E. Essman
Keith M Ryan wrote:
> <snip>
> That's the beauty of a manual, you
> have full control over the transmission of the car. Faster into a
> turn, faster thru the apex, and faster out of it.
You can make the GTP downshift (in performance mode) to any gear but
first (the computer makes the 1-2 shift at 45mph). Off the gas, the
downshift is kind of slow but still crisp. On the loud pedal though,
the downshift is immediate and will blow you back in the seat (although
not as violently as our '92 Vette) You CAN over-rev the GTP in 2nd gear
(the owners manual even tells you -- "..do not down-shift into 2nd gear
at speeds above 60mph. Engine damage may result.") I agree that the
control of a manual isn't there, but this one still aint too bad.
> btw: easiest way to tell the difference between an GTP and a GT off
> the line ( if you dont see the badge.. ) The GTP driver is probably
> sitting and spinning; as he's not skilled enough to get a good luanch
> without loosing traction. The GT, at least, has traction control.
Agreed. Sometimes you have to do a little peddling. On anything but a
high traction surface, the tires of the GTP are not up to the task.
Same story in handling. The tires don't have the grip that the
suspension can handle. This isn't to say that the GTP rides on bicycle
tires, but if Pontiac adds horsepower for '98, they better put some
wider skins on the car (although the current rubber has only about 1/4"
clearance in a turn). For everyday driving though, the lack of traction
control isn't missed. Although I live in Houston, TX... not too much
ice or snow down here.
--
Sloaner 1997 GTP Coupe (first in Houston with a
sunroof)
http://www.mysite.com/sloan
sl...@hypercon.com
Brought to you by Netscape Navigator Gold 3.0
David Foley
Keith M Ryan <*wo...@emi.net> wrote in article
<5i904b$d...@cambridge.emi.net>...
>
> I know of no plans of Pontiac to offer a manul in the GTP. Yes, its
> possible for them to up the ante in simply 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
> But, I have alwasy felt that only pussies slam on the brakes at 1/4
> mile. For supposively having "similar" or even having "better" numbers
> than my Max, if you ever are at speed, you will simply humiliate the
> GTP while he's stuck in overdrive. That's the beauty of a manual, you
> have full control over the transmission of the car. Faster into a
> turn, faster thru the apex, and faster out of it.
>
A few things, Keith ...
a) The proper thrust of this whole argument was supposed to a compo of an
AT GTP and an AT Maxima SE - apples to apples - and the GTP wins hands down
in all the reports I've seen. It's also better priced and much better
looking. (Yes, looks are subjective but this is one instance where I would
have a hard time believing any one who favoured the Max).
b) Regarding "pussies", well, I won't bother.
c) Regarding AT overdrive etc, I'm not an engineer, but if the 4T65E
transmission in the GTP's Performance Mode has been designed to provide
consistent maximum performance by a group of highly specialised programmers
and engineers, I would bet that getting stuck in overdrive will not be much
of a problem.
d) Aha, the beauty of a manual. Am I the only person out there who thinks
that a whole load of people these days are under the impression that they
are some sort of 'purist' or 'real driver' because they opt for a manual
tranny. There may have been a performance advantage in the past, and I
admit they will always give that feeling of personal control to the driver,
but I personally I would opt for the consistency of a highly developed
auto. When I can afford a GTP, maybe we'll get together for a bit of a
race - just make sure you don't slip a gear in the twisties when my 4T65E
is downshifting precisely in a millisecond ;)
> btw: easiest way to tell the difference between an GTP and a GT off
> the line ( if you dont see the badge.. ) The GTP driver is probably
> sitting and spinning;
Spinning - possibly. Sitting - no chance.
> as he's not skilled enough
... and you are Michael Schumachers' evil, but better looking no doubt,
twin brother ? ;)
> to get a good luanch without loosing traction. The GT, at least, has
traction control
... I don't need traction control to get a good 'luanch'. I just go to the
deali !!!!!
Wolph
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:03:02 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > I have driven the GTP, I have also driven the GS by Buick. Those
> > exist, and I've raced them. Hell, even set up a race with a freind
> > of a friend in one. But, i havn't seen these magical GTP's you
> > describe, you know, the ones which spout wings and can fly?
>
> You've driven a GS? Interesting, which dealer and in which city? Did
> the GTP you drove have traction control? Did the GS? Did the GS have a
> heads up display? Sorry, I find this highly unlikely.
The GTP is not currently available with traction control. If you do
not even know what is available with a particular vehicle; perhaps you
should refrain from commenting on its abilities?
> > > > I absolutely
> > > > devestated one GTP while hoping thru traffic. We'ld slow down for
> > > > them, but immediately when it opened, I'm in 3rd or even 2nd,<snip>
> <snipped comment about modified SE>
> > Are you suffering your an inability to read? I never said my SE was
> > modified. That is someone ELSE.. DUH..
>
> Then your brian has been modified, because your SE wouldn't
> "DEVESTATE" a GTP as you claim. BTW, are you suffering 'your an'
> inability to type or spell?
You dont think that a Maxima 5speed in 2nd or 3rd wouldn't blow away
a GTP slushbox stuck in overdrive, at highway speeds? You *DO* know
about the benefits of downshifting, no?
> > You can place an order throu a dealership, just like the SS. I make
> > no comment upon the reliability of Edmunds.
>
> They seem to be making a comment on your reliability. I've never even
> seen an SMX. It's a modified Maxima, period. Comparing it to a stock
> GTP is the same as you trying to say the GTP needs a 5-speed to
> compare to the SE. In other words, nonsense.
Yes, you can compare it. You should say, if it wishes the same, all
around performance as the max, in all driving conditions, it ought
to have one.
> > Um.. you dont believe that even if the cars were completely equal,
> > that I'm in 2nd or 3rd, and he's in overdrive would not enable me
> > to devesate him? You defy all logic.
>
> You don't race cars, do you? I'll explain how the automatic works. You
> pound on the accelerator, the supercharger spools up and the car
> (wonder of wonders) DOWNSHIFTS. Automatic cars are notorious at the
> dragstrip for being easier to race, more consistent and in some cases,
> as fast or faster than their 5 or 6-speed counterparts in newer cars.
Yes, and there's a substantial time period between you "pound the
accelerator", the supercharger spools up, and it downshifts.. During
that time.. well.. hope you like my tail lights. Any monkey or
slack jawed yokul can "pound the accelerator".. It takes skill to
execute a good heel and toe downshift.
> > Does this question stem from your inability to comprehend what you
> > are reading, or from your poor short term memory?
> > "The two long term tests I have seen for the Max, were dealer cars".
>
> I am referring to your comment that the GTP tests were factory
> modified in some way.
No, never stated that it was "modified". Hand picked and tested, yes.
That's very common for initial test reports.
> > Now, compare that to you question on "all the Maxima".. No, obviously
> > the SMX, as well as several of the initial cars, were manufactured
> > prep'ed vehicles. Almost all new car reviews are manufactured prep'ed
> > for testing, its only after they have been out for a while, for longer
> > term tests, do magazines get dealer lot samples. For example, the
> > first production GTP review ( likewise with the Max) was out before
> > they were even on the dealer lots..
>
> And every GS and GTP test I have seen since the car was release has
> been identical to the first ones (6.6 0-60, 15.0-15.2 1/4mi).
> Interestingly, the Maxima tests don't seem to have changed at all from
> the first factory prepped cars.
Yes, and I bet they are simply the same test, reported again.. How many
DIFFERENT tests, have you seen from the GTP? I've only seen one for
C/D, and one for M/T. I have yet to see a second test from either of
them, of a different car.
> This is bullshit. Show me an example where IRS is defeated in general
> handling tests by non-IRS cars.
BMW M3 against just about any car with IRS. As is, the multilink rear
beam is very good at keeping both wheels perpendicular to the road
service during turns. That is one of the advantages of the system. That,
and it increases rear leg room substantially.
Wolph
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:48:33 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > Anyone get the impression, that Bill is sitting cross legged in the
> > center of the room, his hands covering his ears, and singing the
> > Power Ranger song, as loud as he can, to drown out all sense of reason?
>
> Anyone get the impression that Wolph sits in a rusted-out '77 Datsun
> B210 that's up on bricks in his back yard, pretending he's in an SMX
> that he doesn't own and seeing phantom GTP's and GS's receeding in the
> empty rear-view mirror socket, while making raspberry acceleration
> sounds before mommy calls him in for Noodle-O's?
Boy, I seem to hit the nail on the head, to get such a reaction from
you.
Wolph
In article <5i6igv$a...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu
(Edward Kim) wrote:
> ef64.1...@news.wco.com>
<*Wolph-01049...@cnc02518.concentric.net>
<3344106f...@news.wco.com>
<*Wolph-04049...@cnc02553.concentric.net>
<33463f6c...@news.wco.com>
<*Wolph-04049...@cnc02562.concentric.net>
> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology:
> Distribution:
>
> Wolph (*Wo...@emi.net) wrote:
> : Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
> : than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
>
> My father went to the local Nissan dealership to try to work out a deal on
> a '97 Maxima SE. He is replacing a '94 ES300. Well, my father says that
> there was no way in h*ll that he could get a brand-spankin' new '97 SE for
> 20,500. He looked at some with very few options and the 5-speed and I
> think that it stickered for around 25K. And the auto SEs were in the
> upper 20s. So is that a brand new Maxima SE that you got for 20,500? I
> find that hard to believe.
There are quite a few good books at the local Barnes and Nobles, on how
to effectively haggle over a new veicle.
However, I have never made any claims as to whether or not everyone can
arrive at a deal. Anyways, the prices seem to be alot higher than what
is listed for the 97's.. have they tacked on a grand worth of nothing?
e.g. paint sealer, stripes, undercoating etc?
Wolph
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:53:32 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > Your definition of 'similarly equiped" is based on adding features on
> > the GTP to the Maxima.
>
> So what should 'similarly equipped' mean in your view?
That you be honest, and add the cost of standard features on the Maxima,
to the price of the GTP.
> > Again, I bought my Maxima SE of $20,500.. That's thousands less
> > than what the local Pontiac dealer wants for a GTP.
>
> You're the one being dishonest when you claim that you can buy a new
> Maxima SE for $20,500.
I did not say YOU can. You seem to advocate purchasing cars at thier
full MSRP. Only a fool does that. That is exactly what I purchased my
vehicle for. If you wish to, you can call up Plantation Nissan, in
Plantation Florida. Until you take such an action to verify the selling
price of my particular maxima; I'll ignore this as more of your verbal
masturbation and avoiding the issuess.
RMoburg
>
>
>The GTP is not currently available with traction control. If you do
>not even know what is available with a particular vehicle; perhaps you
>should refrain from commenting on its abilities?
I think Pontiac dealers just starting accepting orders for it??
Someone mentioned that it has now been added to the ordering codes.
That is TC for the supercharged car. I guess it has always been
available for the lower output engines.
Wolph
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 11:36:15 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > I'll show you my bill of sale, clearly showing $20,500 ( including
> > destination ) for my 1996 Maxima SE 5speed sedan. Is that good enough?
>
> The base MSRP for a 1996 Maxima SE was $22,679 with no options.
> Destination is $405. Regional emissions is probably another $100-$150.
If you buy cars at MSRP, then YOU sir, are a fool.
Wolph
In article <01bc42fa$1b5f0300$61d048a6@default>, "David Foley"
<df2...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Keith M Ryan <*wo...@emi.net> wrote in article
> <5i904b$d...@cambridge.emi.net>...
> >
> > I know of no plans of Pontiac to offer a manul in the GTP. Yes, its
> > possible for them to up the ante in simply 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
> > But, I have alwasy felt that only pussies slam on the brakes at 1/4
> > mile. For supposively having "similar" or even having "better" numbers
> > than my Max, if you ever are at speed, you will simply humiliate the
> > GTP while he's stuck in overdrive. That's the beauty of a manual, you
> > have full control over the transmission of the car. Faster into a
> > turn, faster thru the apex, and faster out of it.
> >
> A few things, Keith ...
>
> a) The proper thrust of this whole argument was supposed to a compo of an
> AT GTP and an AT Maxima SE - apples to apples - and the GTP wins hands down
> in all the reports I've seen. It's also better priced and much better
> looking. (Yes, looks are subjective but this is one instance where I would
> have a hard time believing any one who favoured the Max).
As I said, I do not deny Nissan has tamed down the SE ( as with all the
Maxima's ) automatic. Completely different mission. However, Nissan gives
the buyer a *choice*. To qoute a bad ad, choice is good. I do not know
about you, but like freedom, and the ability to make a choice. Somehow,
inspite of the Pontiac dealer's 50 foot tall US flags, they seem to have
forgotten that the US is the land of the freedom.
> b) Regarding "pussies", well, I won't bother.
Glad you agree.
> c) Regarding AT overdrive etc, I'm not an engineer, but if the 4T65E
> transmission in the GTP's Performance Mode has been designed to provide
> consistent maximum performance by a group of highly specialised programmers
> and engineers, I would bet that getting stuck in overdrive will not be much
> of a problem.
They have implimented it with a ESP reader?
> d) Aha, the beauty of a manual. Am I the only person out there who thinks
> that a whole load of people these days are under the impression that they
> are some sort of 'purist' or 'real driver' because they opt for a manual
> tranny.
Okay. How do you downshift before entering the turn? What do you do,
"pound" the accelerator to get it to downshift, while braking at the
same time? I dont want to imagine how badly taht will plow and understeer.
Will your tranny hold it in say, 2nd gear at 30mph while you are
negotiating the apex, using the throttle to control the front to rear
traction? Or, is your tranny upshifted back to overdrive?
I guess its hard to explain the pleasure of coming down a straight at
a high speed, downshifting while braking at the limit of traction, hitting
a sharp hairpin turn at a speed, having the car in the proper gear thru
the turn, and being in the proper gear as you leave.. It adds a whole
different dimention, than simply using the brake into the turn, coasting
around the turn, then flooring the gas..
> > btw: easiest way to tell the difference between an GTP and a GT off
> > the line ( if you dont see the badge.. ) The GTP driver is probably
> > sitting and spinning;
>
> Spinning - possibly. Sitting - no chance.
Actualy, watch one. In the initial second or to, it'll be significantly
SLOWER than if the wheels are not spinning.
Wolph
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:00:30 -0500, *Wo...@emi.net (Wolph) wrote:
>
> > Yes, can you name a faster, all around 4 door sedan in the 20 to 25k
> > market? Hell, even in the 20 to 30k market.. The Impala SS would have
> > come close, thou in stock form, its a tick slower.. But, that's been
> > cancelled, so you really can't talk about it..
>
> Yes, but "faster" and "quicker" are two different things. I would
> actually bet on a GTP or GS being faster than a 5-speed Maxima in 0-60
> and 1/4mi. on average, owing simply to its traction control and
> automatic tranny.
Yes, any slacked jaw neanderthal can drive a slushbox. You'll find no
arugement to me here.
If you fail to realize that the GTP is NOT available with traction
control; how can we trust anything else you say, concerning its
performance. I bet you think it can be purchased with a 350 LS1
too..
> Neither the GTP nor the GS can attain the 140mph top
> end of the Maxima (which I sort of doubt even it can, but anyway),
Yes, its a conspiracy of over four major magazines to lie about
the performance of the Maxima.. yep..
> > Maximum speed/performance wasn't the design goal. If they wanted that,
> > you'ld see the I6 TT found in the GTR.
>
> Oh sure, they'd have put the Skyline engine in the Maxima. I think
> that car is as fast as they want it to be. If they took the I6 TT
> they'd probably have to build a whole new tranny for the Maxima, since
> it isn't AWD like the Skyline. I don't think they would ever consider
> it even if they wanted the Maxima to be the fastest production sedan
> on Earth.
Um.. Might I suggest pointing your browser to the little island of
Japan, and look at what Nissan sells over there, to non US Buyer's?
Hell, I'ld take a little 180SX against a Z28 anyday!
> > No, but it means its less safe than speed rated tires.. That "less
> > safe" falls below wwhat GM and the govn't views as an acceptable
> > risk. Now, you may disagree at what point the line is drawn, but its
> > drawn, never the less.
> <other stuff snipped>
>
> My point was that, without the limiter, a GTP or GS is capable of
> safely attaining speeds equal or greater than the Maxima.
Just like how you can buy a GTP with traction control eh? Yea, you
THINK it, but you dont know it. You just sit there, reading your
magazines. You dont even gain much from it, as almost all reviews
have complained about the lack of traction control. So you
obviously are not reading very carefully. I get tired of kids like
you, blowing what they "THINK" around like thick smoke. Get out in
the real world sometime..it may open your eyes a little bit.
Wolph
In article <3345AA...@princeton.edu>, Sergey Macheret
<mach...@princeton.edu> wrote:
You have the option of a 6 speed.
Wolph
> > btw: easiest way to tell the difference between an GTP and a GT off
> > the line ( if you dont see the badge.. ) The GTP driver is probably
> > sitting and spinning; as he's not skilled enough to get a good luanch
> > without loosing traction. The GT, at least, has traction control.
>
> Agreed. Sometimes you have to do a little peddling. On anything but a
> high traction surface, the tires of the GTP are not up to the task.
> Same story in handling. The tires don't have the grip that the
> suspension can handle. This isn't to say that the GTP rides on bicycle
> tires, but if Pontiac adds horsepower for '98, they better put some
> wider skins on the car (although the current rubber has only about 1/4"
> clearance in a turn).
It is funny how some companies can make a car perform/handle extremely
well on 15" wheels.. whereas other companies struggle with 16/17" rims.
I think a great way to test the chassis balance is to simply drive on
ice; thus eliminating the factor due to the tire size. If the car's
chassis is balanced, it'll still drive straight, not pull violently
to one side etc.
Shawn P. Church
Brad Sloan wrote:
>
> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Shawn P. Church wrote:
> > time. However, if a Max and a GTP were cruising along in top gear side
> > by side and suddenly, at the same instant, both drivers noticed that the
> > road merged to one lane in 300 ft, who do you think would get the jump?
>
> Actually, I think you'd be suprised if you time your reaction
> and how fast you can actually execute that downshift. About the only
> automatic I've encountered that can execute a downshift as fast or faster
> than myself is the excellent one that comes with the BMW 328. The new
> Corvette, with its fly-by-wire technology, may be even faster in its
> automatic form.
> I'm no expert on transmissions, but I believe that most autos
> decide gear position by engine load - i.e., intake manifold pressure
> sensor. There is a bit of lag time involved between the time you floor
> the throttle, intake pressure drops, and the transmission decides to
> shift.
It certainly depends on the car. I'm pretty good at rapid gear changes and
my car has one of the better setups in the biz, but there is a time lag for
me to move my hand from the steering wheel, to the shift knob and perform the
proscribed actions. GM, IMO, makes some of the best auto trannies around.
The version used on the LT1 motors in the F-bodies shifts quickly and
smoothly. The latest adaptive transmissions also learn your driving style
and will shift quicker and harder for a more agressive driver. I don't doubt
that in a structured, scientific test, I could get my car down a gear or two
quicker than many auto trannies, but I'm not about to start betting money on
it if you know what I mean.
The biggest benefits of manual transmissions are the ability to pick the
gears you want for corner entry and exit, the higher driveline efficiency
achieved by avoiding a torque converter, the extra gear or two you normally
get, and the ability to modulate an extra variable (clutch) in the
acceleration equation. Shift time is not a distinct advantage for a manual
vs. a performance oriented auto.
Rgds,
Shawn
Sergey Macheret
Wolph wrote:
>
> In article <3345AA...@princeton.edu>, Sergey Macheret
> <mach...@princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> > Wolph wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > But GM doesn't even give you an option of a 5speed. That's precludes it
> > > from every being considered a serious performance car.
> > >
> >
> > I'm really curious: are you considering the RENNTech SLR7.4
> > not to be "a serious performance car" because of its auto transmission?
>
> You have the option of a 6 speed.
>
Do you know more details on the 6-speed? Is it a no-cost option? Who makes
the transmission? Any performance numbers for the SLR7.4 with the 6-sp.?
And anyway, I just cannot agree with you that the SLR7.4 with the automatic
is not a serious performance car. Just look at the performance numbers
like 0-60 in about (or less than) 4 seconds, etc., etc. How can anyone say
that this is not a high-performance machine?
Sergey Macheret
Shawn P. Church
Wolph wrote:
>
> In article <334843a0...@news.wco.com>, *bsta...@wco.com wrote:
>
> You dont think that a Maxima 5speed in 2nd or 3rd wouldn't blow away
> a GTP slushbox stuck in overdrive, at highway speeds? You *DO* know
> about the benefits of downshifting, no?
No doubt that just about any car in 2nd or 3rd will outaccelerate most
cars in top gear. However, in the case of a highway situation, there are
some instances where an auto can have an advantage. Those of us with
manual trannies have to anticipate the need for more acceleration,
declutch, downshift, rev match and accelerate. If a hole suddenly opens
in traffic, it takes little more than a stab on the accelerator for a
good automatic equipped car to downshift two gears and go. Yes, we
should all be anticipating the need and be in the right gear at the right
time. However, if a Max and a GTP were cruising along in top gear side
by side and suddenly, at the same instant, both drivers noticed that the
road merged to one lane in 300 ft, who do you think would get the jump?
Manuals have many advantages, but a good auto can work wonders.
> Yes, and there's a substantial time period between you "pound the
> accelerator", the supercharger spools up, and it downshifts.. During
> that time.. well.. hope you like my tail lights. Any monkey or
> slack jawed yokul can "pound the accelerator".. It takes skill to
> execute a good heel and toe downshift.
Actually Keith and Bill, if the GTP still uses the Eaton blower, there
really isn't spool up involved, it'll produce good boost almost anywhere.
If the two cars are drag racing, they'll be in the right gears, if
they're cruising side by side on the freeway, see my above example. I'd
rather have the Max, but dismissing a car because of an auto tranny is
dangerous.
> > This is bullshit. Show me an example where IRS is defeated in general
> > handling tests by non-IRS cars.
>
> BMW M3 against just about any car with IRS. As is, the multilink rear
> beam is very good at keeping both wheels perpendicular to the road
> service during turns. That is one of the advantages of the system. That,
> and it increases rear leg room substantially.
Are you talking current generation M3 here? Who told you it didn't have
an independent rear suspension? The term multilink does not mean rear
beam axle. Considering that the 318ti has an independent rear, don't you
think the M3 would too?
Shawn