Power Wedge and line conditioners
bra...@cadvision.com
Recently I tried a Power Wedge with isolation for digital sources and
high current outlets for amps. I felt comforted by the surge
protection but unsure whether the device (nearly $600 in Canada)
actually helped the sound. Some experts tell me that properly designed
digital equipment and amplifiers should benefit very little, if at
all, from line conditioners. My five-day experience with an expensive
if impressively heavy piece of gear tended to confirm that, despite
the dealer's talk of "lower noise floor" and "music emerging from a
deeper silence." In short, I suspect it's baloney - or a difference
only audible to bats. But I stand to be corrected. Any opinions?
Armand
A very interesting "trichotomy" here. Many hear improvements with
LC's, others like this gentleman, hear no improvement, and I and
others I know, hear a degradation (coloration)-I've tried 3 prolific
designs. Power source or system dependent?
Armand
sigloxx
Armand wrote:
[quote deletion - wsr]
> LC's, others like this gentleman, hear no improvement, and I and
> others I know, hear a degradation (coloration)-I've tried 3 prolific
> designs. Power source or system dependent?
well, i got my power wedge for free, so i won't complain. i have two
monoblock klimo amps, an arc sp-3 pre-amp, a marantz cdr-1 recorder,
and the infinity modulus sub and satellite system. i heard some
difference, not a difference worth the retail $350 for the unit. i
live in a four-plex built in 1910 and a great deal of the wiring is
original. i found that newer output tubes and better filter caps made
a stronger impact on my system. i use the wedge because it's there,
and it was free. i think it cleans the power up a bit and helps with
reproducing more accurate lows and highs, but i wouldn't swear by it.
one could go by a trip-lite or sola line conditioner at far less cost
and accomplish the same thing.
uh.......OH!
On 7 Sep 1996 10:52:44 -0400, mo...@voicenet.com (Armand) wrote:
>In article <50mjcd$v...@decaxp.harvard.edu>, bra...@cadvision.com says:
>> Recently I tried a Power Wedge .......In short, I suspect it's
>> baloney - or a difference only audible to bats. But I stand to be
>> corrected. Any opinions?
>A very interesting "trichotomy" here. Many hear improvements with
>LC's, others like this gentleman, hear no improvement, and I and
>others I know, hear a degradation (coloration)-I've tried 3 prolific
>designs. Power source or system dependent?
Yes, I hear a difference with high resolution systems, nothing with
what you'd buy at Sears, and if I gave my opinion, as I'm doing, I'd
say that I generally prefer power conditioning versus none.
Regardless, how does one determine if the difference is coloration?
Personally, my own observations, although nothing earth shaking, have
been that power conditioning, not necessarily API's, allowed equipment
to perform with less crap crowding the closet, more subtractive than
additive. But then again, that's only an unverifiable opinion. Still
though, how do you know it's coloration as opposed to a lack of it? I
don't.
colin
dale w smith
I have no experience with the Power Wedge but I purchased a Chang
Lightspeed 3200 a couple of years ago. After considerable trial I
found it to usually make things worse. It made no difference with my
Class
preamp but my Sony ES player had its soundfield significantly
reduced. At first it seemed like an improvement ( smoother sound ) but
then you began to realize that something was missing. Bryston strongly
recommends against using a conditioner because it already has built in
filtration ( as all components should ). I would never say that they
never work but I am amazed at the thousands of dollars spent on
filtration on some reviewews systems . I would be more inclined to buy
equipment less in need of it to begin with.
Regards
Dale
uh.......OH!
On 8 Sep 1996 23:01:45 -0400, dale w smith <dws...@abacom.com> wrote:
>I have no experience with the Power Wedge but I purchased a Chang
>Lightspeed 3200 a couple of years ago. After considerable trial I
>found it to usually make things worse. It made no difference with my
>Class
After a few months of reading posts, and regarding power conditioners,
most people, (no, I didn't keep score) seem to rate the Chang
Lightspeed conditioners unanimously bad. Does anybody know how these
things work? Do they limit the current draw? Does anybody have
anything good to say about these things? The Power Wedge products
aren't doing anything magical. Simply MOV's, isolation transformers,
and damping filters. I'm not familiar with their particular damping
filters, but I know that isolation transformers limit current, which
is why you don't hook up your amps to them, as well as add certain
kinds of noise, while reducing others, and MOV's add noise, but act as
voltage clamps. All of this stuff is well documented. ( I read about
it in a manual for a UPS.) What does a Lightspeed do? Engineers
please?
colin
ray6
bra...@cadvision.com wrote:
> Recently I tried a Power Wedge with isolation for digital sources and
> high current outlets for amps. I felt comforted by the surge
> protection but unsure whether the device (nearly $600 in Canada)
> actually helped the sound. Some experts tell me that properly designed
> digital equipment and amplifiers should benefit very little, if at
> all, from line conditioners. My five-day experience with an expensive
> if impressively heavy piece of gear tended to confirm that, despite
> the dealer's talk of "lower noise floor" and "music emerging from a
> deeper silence." In short, I suspect it's baloney - or a difference
> only audible to bats. But I stand to be corrected. Any opinions?
I happen to won a power wedge model 116 and find that it did tend to
open up the sound of my system. I do not know what your system is
composed of or the quality, ie grunge level, of your electricity.
Try plugging one component in at a time to see if you hear a
difference. If you eventually do not, then you saved yourself some
money.
john
conn...@gol.com
In article <50tos9$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>, co...@iofr.com
(uh.......OH!) wrote:
> On 7 Sep 1996 10:52:44 -0400, mo...@voicenet.com (Armand) wrote:
>> In article <50mjcd$v...@decaxp.harvard.edu>, bra...@cadvision.com says:
>>> Recently I tried a Power Wedge .......In short, I suspect it's
>>> baloney - or a difference only audible to bats. But I stand to be
>>> corrected. Any opinions?
>
>> A very interesting "trichotomy" here. Many hear improvements with
>> LC's, others like this gentleman, hear no improvement, and I and
>> others I know, hear a degradation (coloration)-I've tried 3 prolific
>> designs. Power source or system dependent?
>
> Yes, I hear a difference with high resolution systems, nothing with
> what you'd buy at Sears, and if I gave my opinion, as I'm doing, I'd
> say that I generally prefer power conditioning versus none.
> Regardless, how does one determine if the difference is coloration?
> Personally, my own observations, although nothing earth shaking,
> have been that power conditioning, not necessarily API's, allowed
> equipment to perform with less crap crowding the closet, more
> subtractive than additive. But then again, that's only an
> unverifiable opinion. Still though, how do you know it's coloration
> as opposed to a lack of it? I don't.
I have also played around extensively in this area, with products by
API, MIT etc., and my own opinion is that the results depend on the
peformance of the voltage regulators in the audio component under
test. If you are running a component with no regulators or mediocre
regulators, chances are you will hear a noticeable improvement. If
your component has good regulators, you may find that the sounds gets
worse. Also note that the ground or earth is an important link in many
power filtering devices - a poor ground may keep you from getting good
results. Myself, I find that the API Power Enhancer works favorably in
more cases than the Wedge, but that's just my experience. What works
well in my system is to run the non-digital components (analog, line &
power amps) unfiltered, and to put filters on all of the big noise
sources, including refrigerators, washing machines, any components
with fluorescent displays, most digital components etc. The idea is to
keep the noise from these components from getting on to to main
powerline. Note, though, that many power amp have unregulated output
stages, even when the voltage amplification stage is regulated. In
this type of situation, you have to experiment.
--
jc
Without comprehension, knowledge is nothing.
RWAC
I had a 1st generation Power Wedge and it made the sound smoother in
my system, less grundge especially with CD's. It did also close down
(slightly reduce the dynamics, of the system. I have no experience
with the Chang, but I purchased a VansEvers Power line conditioner and
find it to work very well with system and it doesn't appear to limit
the dynamics. These conditioners tighten and deepen the bass in most
systems. I added a separate Model 12 (analog 1 outlet) model to my
tube preamp and the sound improved (cleaner & more detailed). I
recommend these units highly, and no I don't have stock in the
company. I'm sure there are many dealers throughout the country who
sell these and would probably sell them on a trial (demo) period. If
there is info about how to obtain these units, why don't you dealers
make yourself known. I'm sure the majority of these demos will remain
sold. Hope this helps.
Richard
Ray Schoepfer
In article <50tos9$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>, co...@iofr.com says...
>On 7 Sep 1996 10:52:44 -0400, mo...@voicenet.com (Armand) wrote:
>
>>In article <50mjcd$v...@decaxp.harvard.edu>, bra...@cadvision.com says:
>
>
>Yes, I hear a difference with high resolution systems, nothing with
>what you'd buy at Sears, and if I gave my opinion, as I'm doing, I'd
In my test of home brew units (similar to commercial ones) I have
found audible differences, even with ghetto blasters (maybe even Sears
ghetto blasters:) )
>say that I generally prefer power conditioning versus none.
>Regardless, how does one determine if the difference is coloration?
I and everyone, audiophiles and non, definately prefered the sound
with conditioning.
>Personally, my own observations, although nothing earth shaking, have
>been that power conditioning, not necessarily API's, allowed equipment
>to perform with less crap crowding the closet, more subtractive than
>additive. But then again, that's only an unverifiable opinion. Still
>though, how do you know it's coloration as opposed to a lack of it? I
>don't.
Given the apparant lowering of the noise floor and increase in detail,
and an understanding of basic electronics, I'm convinced that it is
not an additive colouration.
I am interested in the number of people that don't hear a big
difference though. It may be that these people are working with poor
grounds. In order for conditioners to work they have to have good
grounds or else the RFI/EMI that they pass to ground just re-radiates
back to the live wires. I'm not sure what else could explain people's
disappointing experiences.
--
Ray Schoepfer, President
aRenDeeco,Inc.
Ph: (403)276-4040
[signature deletion - wsr]
Steve Hull
ra...@tribeca.ios.com (ray6) wrote:
>bra...@cadvision.com wrote:
>> Recently I tried a Power Wedge with isolation for digital sources and
>> high current outlets for amps. I felt comforted by the surge
>> protection but unsure whether the device (nearly $600 in Canada)
>> actually helped the sound. Some experts tell me that properly designed
>> digital equipment and amplifiers should benefit very little, if at
>> all, from line conditioners. My five-day experience with an expensive
>> if impressively heavy piece of gear tended to confirm that, despite
>> the dealer's talk of "lower noise floor" and "music emerging from a
>> deeper silence." In short, I suspect it's baloney - or a difference
>> only audible to bats. But I stand to be corrected. Any opinions?
>I happen to won a power wedge model 116 and find that it did tend to
>open up the sound of my system. I do not know what your system is
>composed of or the quality, ie grunge level, of your electricity.
>Try plugging one component in at a time to see if you hear a
>difference. If you eventually do not, then you saved yourself some
>money.
I have a theory that one thing that differentiates high-end equipment
from its mid-fi brethren is the attention paid to better power
supplies. I also have a Power Wedge 116, but didn't really feel that
it affected the sound at all. I feel better knowing that my expensive
equipment is protected from all the A/C gremlins out there, but I
honestly cannot detect any sonic benefits from its presence in the
system. It's also worth mentioning that if I thought it had any
negative affect on the sonics, I would get rid of it immediately.
It's entirely possible that I may be blessed with a good clean source
of power, but I tend to think that my equipment had already taken care
of removing the power "grungies".
- Steve
bl...@vnet.ibm.com
ra...@arendeeco.com (Ray Schoepfer) writes...
> I am interested in the number of people that don't hear a big
> difference though. It may be that these people are working with poor
> grounds. In order for conditioners to work they have to have good
> grounds or else the RFI/EMI that they pass to ground just
> re-radiates back to the live wires. I'm not sure what else could
> explain people's disappointing experiences.
I'd like to suggest that there are no audiophiles who have a decent
ground for RF, including me, despite the fact that the ground system
for my power filters has seven 8-foot ground rods in it. Even if the
impedance to ground from all those rods were decently low (which it
isn't) as soon as you string some wire between the ground rods and the
system, the wire acts as an antenna that will actually feed RF into
the system at some frequencies rather than conducting it away. The
ground inside the power wiring has just as much RF on it as the power
line itself does.
So given that mess, how can a power filter actually work? The lower
frequency stuff, whose wavelength is long compared to the length of
the ground wires, can get carried off to the ground system. Mainly
they work by decreasing the RF potential difference between the 2 or 3
wires going into the equipment. That is, they reduce differential mode
RFI, but are not very effective against common mode RFI (where both or
all 3 conductors have the same RF on them).
There's lots of potential for RFI filters to mess up, or to improve
things at one frequency while making things worse at another. For
example, an isolation transformer stops RF on the hot power leads but
not on the ground wire, so it can make the RF difference voltage
between the two power leads less, and at the same time put a higher RF
voltage between the power and the chassis. Depending on how the
equipment responds to that it might sound better, or worse.
To make matters even more complicated, I suspect some equipment (my
Conrad-Johnson MF200 included) responds euphonically to small amounts
of RFI. The CJ has a tendency to give vocals, especially female ones,
a smooth shimmery coloration that is quite nice. With proper filtering
it sounds more natural, and slightly more detailed. But, that can also
unmask harshness that may have been hiding in the source or in the
recording, so in some cases reducing the RFI can make the system sound
worse.
So, there are multiple explanations for why a power filter may sound
good in one system and not in another, and why they sometimes make the
sound worse. (And I didn't even mention current limiting yet). All you
can do is experiment. There are no general rules.
Bob
JohnH82600
I am no longer using my Counterpoint PAC-15 conditioner after it burn
up and zap some of my stereo equipment. My Luxman CD player power
supply board is a mess with some of the filter caps bases melted and
all the power diodes burned. It appears the the Counterpoint
conditioner did not like the new halogen lamp I had and I did not know
at the time at the circuit was going back the the output of the
conditioner. The three way switch of the halogen lamp that controls
the amount of light had something to do with this. No more
conditioners for me and I am trying to get the rest of my equipment
back up and working.
John A. Hayden
jechang
bra...@cadvision.com wrote:
> ... My five-day experience with an expensive if impressively heavy
> piece of gear tended to confirm that, despite the dealer's talk of
> "lower noise floor" and "music emerging from a deeper silence." In
> short, I suspect it's baloney - or a difference only audible to
> bats. But I stand to be corrected. Any opinions?
I think that a significant part of the effectiveness of the Power
Wedge or any other power conditioner may have to do with where you are
located and what you do with it.
Living in NYC, which probably has as much RF and EMI grunge and dirty
electrical power as any other city and using electrostatic speakers
(Acoustat 3M), powered with Audible Illusion 3 and Music Reference RM9
II, I was dissatisfied with the sound.
I bought a Tripp Lite RF and EMI conditioner LC-1800, and found it
made a big difference when filtering the electrostatic speakers' power
supply, as well as that of the VIP HW-19 jr and amp and preamp. But
it mattered where you plugged in each of the power cords - i.e., into
which of the three filtered isolation-type banks on the Tripp Lite (I
would imagine the same goes for the Power Wedge). Testing and
experimenting with the various combinations were time-consuming and
draining.
Also trying to keep costs low, I then bought a generic isolation
transformer, GE 2000 VA, from an electrical supply house, and put it
ahead of the Tripp Lite, and found it also made a big difference, but
only after re-testing and -experimenting with the combinations all
over again.
My last purchase was the Tice Power Block series II, since it was
offered at a second-hand price. Placed between the GE transformer and
the Tripp Lite, it made a very noticeable difference, but only with
the Audible Illusion 3 plugged into one of the Tice sockets and the
remainder of the system plugged into the Tripp Lite, which was plugged
into the Tice.
My point is that buying an expensive piece of gear requires a great
deal of fine-tuning, much more than I anticipated. It's like buying
high-precision scientific equipment. Base-line measurements and
calibrations are required, particularly when you are after the kinds
of delicate nuances or other elusive sound qualities that the high-end
community seems to be seeking.
I don't specify the exact plug-ins of my system because I believe that
every system is unique, what works in my system will be different from
yours. What is the rule, however, is that you have to tinker around
(I also found that wrapping aluminum foil around the power cables and
the interconnects but not the speaker cables (something I can't
fathom) keeps the sound clean).
Hope this helps,
jason
G.E. Boyd
> I am interested in the number of people that don't hear a big
> difference though. It may be that these people are working with poor
> grounds. In order for conditioners to work they have to have good
> grounds or else the RFI/EMI that they pass to ground just re-radiates
> back to the live wires. I'm not sure what else could explain people's
> disappointing experiences.
I tried an isolation transformer unit similar to the Power Wedge in my
own system and heard no major difference or improvement. Neither did
my wife when I tried a simple blind listening experiment. However,
when I tried a Chang Lightspeed, which is based on some sort of
ferrite absorption system (I really don't understand it....:-)) the
difference was immediately noticeable and quite positive. I bought
the unit.
Gil Boyd
Houston
rickc...@gmail.com
Peter Wieck
a) Where there is a genuine need, significant fluctuation in voltage, or a lot of noise on a line due to shared equipment, motors, various industrial applications, many VFDs or other devices, Line Conditioners serve a genuine need. These are generally predictable applications in any case.
b) The nearest electrical source to me is approximately 30 miles away, but most of the power we use comes from Limerick, PA (Nuke), or the wind-farm in Columbia County, PA. So, between 30 and 100 miles as the crow flies. Via miles and miles and miles of aluminum and copper. Transformed four (4) times until it arrives at our house at a reasonably steady 118 VAC at the wallplate. Most of the items I operate have decent power-supplies, and can tolerate a certain amount of sag and a certain amount of 'normal' noise. A line conditioner would be redundant.
If that changes, I will invest in one.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Walt
recording or PA gear into whatever AC was available, I found that using
power conditioners eliminated a lot of problems.
For home usage? Well, if you have problematic AC you only have to fix
it once (as opposed to fixing it for every gig) and maybe a power
conditioner is the right approach.
If not, it's like installing a sump pump in the basement when your
basement never takes on water. It might make you feel better, but it's
basically a waste of money.
--
//Walt