'The Best Serious Picture Ever Made' - Citizen Kane

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious picture ever made in this country".'.

New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
-- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT), bruce2...@gmail.com
wrote:

>'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious picture ever made in this country".'.
>
>New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
>-- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html

I'm unclear why you're posting a 40 year old review today.

As for best ever my vote would be for Doctor Strangelove.

[Ian J. Ball]

That's not a "serious" picture.


--
"Three light sabers? Is that overkill? Or just the right amount
of "kill"?" - M-OC, "A Perilous Rescue" (ep. #2.9), LSW:TFA (08-10-2017)

[mog...@hotmail.com]

Its just that I saw such a prestigious daily declare such a thing... "The best film ever made". I just thought I'd run that by here.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

The best "picture" ever made.

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:29:55 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid>

wrote:

>>> 'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious
>>> picture ever made in this country".'.
>>>
>>> New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
>>> -- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html
>>
>> I'm unclear why you're posting a 40 year old review today.
>>
>> As for best ever my vote would be for Doctor Strangelove.
>
>That's not a "serious" picture.

I understood 'serious' to mean "as opposed to an art school project'
such as my daughter's IMDB credit.

I gather you mean "non-comedy" to which I'd offer The Wizard of Oz,
Casablanca, Hard Times, Ben Hur, The Godfather I, Gone With the Wind,
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Psycho just for starters as a 'top
non-comedic' list. Just for starters.

Admittedly many love Citizen Kane for the reveal of Kane's last words
at the end.

[Ian J. Ball]

That's what I thought... until I saw it. The film is so much more than
that. For one thing, it's beautifully shot.

Yes, I agree that "Casablanca" is #1. But "Kane" or GWTW are pretty
much equal contenders for #2.

[A Friend]

In article <qgu7en$mpc$1...@dont-email.me>, Ian J. Ball

<IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:

> On 2019-07-20 03:44:58 +0000, The Horny Goat said:
>
> > On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:29:55 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>> 'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious
> >>>> picture ever made in this country".'.
> >>>>
> >>>> New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
> >>>> -- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html
> >>>
> >>> I'm unclear why you're posting a 40 year old review today.
> >>>
> >>> As for best ever my vote would be for Doctor Strangelove.
> >>
> >> That's not a "serious" picture.
> >
> > I understood 'serious' to mean "as opposed to an art school project'
> > such as my daughter's IMDB credit.
> >
> > I gather you mean "non-comedy" to which I'd offer The Wizard of Oz,
> > Casablanca, Hard Times, Ben Hur, The Godfather I, Gone With the Wind,
> > One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Psycho just for starters as a 'top
> > non-comedic' list. Just for starters.
> >
> > Admittedly many love Citizen Kane for the reveal of Kane's last words
> > at the end.
>
> That's what I thought... until I saw it. The film is so much more than
> that. For one thing, it's beautifully shot.
>
> Yes, I agree that "Casablanca" is #1. But "Kane" or GWTW are pretty
> much equal contenders for #2.

I agree that Casablanca is #1. GWTW isn't a great film at all, it's
just big. Selznick's daughter once called it "not a great film, but a
great show," and I think she's right.

I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
broken Orson's heart.)

[moviePig]

It's not the meaning of 'serious' that's at issue here, but rather (and
as usual) the meaning of 'best'...

--

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

[FPP]

So the question really is: If you had one movie you could take with you
to a desert island (with power and a TV), what would it be?

Yeah, Citizen Kane was a great film (mostly because they did a lot of
things in that film that we take for granted today, but was new for the
time) - but I'd take My Favorite Year with me before Citizen Kane any day.

--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)

[Jim G.]

A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:

> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
> broken Orson's heart.)

I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better film.

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"She mustn't kill Aaron. I mean it. I hate to be strict but she really
mustn't kill anyone." -- Carolyn Martens, KILLING EVE

[moviePig]

On 7/20/2019 5:05 PM, Jim G. wrote:
> A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:
>> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list.  (I'm sure that would have
>> broken Orson's heart.)
>
> I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
> Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better film.

Carol Reed?

[trotsky]

Now you've changed the subject to sentimental favorite. Mine's "Local
Hero".

[FPP]

Well, the word "best" can be interpreted in about 6,000 different ways.

[moviePig]

Heh. Yeah, the desert island becomes an engineering exercise. (I
suppose I couldn't choose ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA: THE MOVIE.) One
answer might be PRIMER, or THE MAGUS, or LAST YEAR AT MARIENBAD
...because it'd take a lifetime to figure them out. Another answer
might be whatever movie makes you laugh (or cry) no matter how many
times you've seen it. (I once heard AU HASARD BALTHAZAR illustriously
described thus.) Fwiw, I doubt that my own most frequent "best movie
ever", 2001:aSO, would even make my short list.

[Jim G.]

moviePig sent the following on 7/20/19 at 4:40 PM:

> On 7/20/2019 5:05 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>> A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:
>>> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>>> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list.  (I'm sure that would have
>>> broken Orson's heart.)
>>
>> I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
>> Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better film.
>
> Carol Reed?

I give more credit to cinematographer Krasker than to director Reed. I
mean, the acting is solid all-around, but it's the visuals that have
always impressed me the most. I love noir, and it just doesn't get more
noir than this. In any case, were we limiting ourselves to discussing
directing gigs?

[moviePig]

On 7/21/2019 4:35 PM, Jim G. wrote:
> moviePig sent the following on 7/20/19 at 4:40 PM:
>> On 7/20/2019 5:05 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>>> A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:
>>>> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>>>> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list.  (I'm sure that would have
>>>> broken Orson's heart.)
>>>
>>> I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
>>> Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better
>>> film.
>>
>> Carol Reed?
>
> I give more credit to cinematographer Krasker than to director Reed. I
> mean, the acting is solid all-around, but it's the visuals that have
> always impressed me the most. I love noir, and it just doesn't get more
> noir than this. In any case, were we limiting ourselves to discussing
> directing gigs?

People sometimes think Welles directed tTM. Just making sure you
weren't one of them. It'd be unusual to credit a DP with "auteur-ship"
of a movie. But, though I'd never heard of Krasker, he does indeed seem
to have a rather eminent resume in British film.

[Jim G.]

moviePig sent the following on 7/21/19 at 4:27 PM:

> On 7/21/2019 4:35 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>> moviePig sent the following on 7/20/19 at 4:40 PM:
>>> On 7/20/2019 5:05 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>>>> A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:
>>>>> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>>>>> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list.  (I'm sure that would have
>>>>> broken Orson's heart.)
>>>>
>>>> I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
>>>> Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better
>>>> film.
>>>
>>> Carol Reed?
>>
>> I give more credit to cinematographer Krasker than to director Reed. I
>> mean, the acting is solid all-around, but it's the visuals that have
>> always impressed me the most. I love noir, and it just doesn't get more
>> noir than this. In any case, were we limiting ourselves to discussing
>> directing gigs?
>
> People sometimes think Welles directed tTM. Just making sure you
> weren't one of them.

I couldn't sit here and list all of Reed's or Welles's directing
credits, but I know who directed this one. :)

> It'd be unusual to credit a DP with "auteur-ship"
> of a movie. But, though I'd never heard of Krasker, he does indeed seem
> to have a rather eminent resume in British film.

I sought out some of his other work decades ago, but I don't recall how
successful I was at tracking it down. Now that things are easier to
find, I might look into it again at some point.

[Neill Massello]

moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:

> People sometimes think Welles directed tTM.

Sometimes so did Welles.

[Jim G.]

Neill Massello sent the following on 7/21/19 at 8:36 PM:

> moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>
>> People sometimes think Welles directed tTM.
>
> Sometimes so did Welles.

Heh. Nicely played. But he does get credit for cribbing the cuckoo clock
bit, which is memorable despite its historical inaccuracy.

[moviePig]

"................cuckoo .....clock ....."

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:44:43 -0400, A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:

>I agree that Casablanca is #1. GWTW isn't a great film at all, it's
>just big. Selznick's daughter once called it "not a great film, but a
>great show," and I think she's right.
>
>I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
>broken Orson's heart.)

I agree - I didn't consider my time spent watching Kane wasted time
but neither am I motivated to watch it again -= as opposed to
Casablanca which I watch every 2 or 3 years.

[Jim G.]

The Horny Goat sent the following on 7/21/19 at 9:22 PM:

Exactly. Personally, I'd have a hard time choosing between CASABLANCA
and THE THIRD MAN since they're both so damn good (although the former
has the advantage of the lovely Ingrid), but I'll take either one over
CITIZEN KANE. And on the subject of the lovely Ingrid, NOTORIOUS is more
of a personal favorite of mine than CK, as well.

[anim8rfsk]

Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:28:49 -0700 Jim G.<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> The Horny Goat sent the following on 7/21/19 at 9:22 PM:
> > On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:44:43 -0400, A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree that Casablanca is #1. GWTW isn't a great film at all, it's
> > > just big. Selznick's daughter once called it "not a great film, but a
> > > great show," and I think she's right.
> > >
> > > I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
> > > It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
> > > broken Orson's heart.)
> >
> > I agree - I didn't consider my time spent watching Kane wasted time
> > but neither am I motivated to watch it again -= as opposed to
> > Casablanca which I watch every 2 or 3 years.
>
> Exactly. Personally, I'd have a hard time choosing between CASABLANCA
> and THE THIRD MAN since they're both so damn good (although the former
> has the advantage of the lovely Ingrid), but I'll take either one over
> CITIZEN KANE. And on the subject of the lovely Ingrid, NOTORIOUS is more
> of a personal favorite of mine than CK, as well.

I haven't seen THE THIRD MAN in forever, and I don't think I've ever seen
NOTORIOUS. Both added to the list.

You ever see CASABLANCA where they run it mushed together with PLAY IT AGAIN
SAM?

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/

[trotsky]

Sure, but this discussion generally means greatest cinematic
achievement. That's subjective too but the general meaning is consistent.

[moviePig]

But then it's hard to compare Kubrick's films to Thomas Edison's.

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 7/21/19 at 10:58 PM:

> Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:28:49 -0700 Jim G.<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The Horny Goat sent the following on 7/21/19 at 9:22 PM:
>>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:44:43 -0400, A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree that Casablanca is #1. GWTW isn't a great film at all, it's
>>>> just big. Selznick's daughter once called it "not a great film, but a
>>>> great show," and I think she's right.
>>>>
>>>> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>>>> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
>>>> broken Orson's heart.)
>>>
>>> I agree - I didn't consider my time spent watching Kane wasted time
>>> but neither am I motivated to watch it again -= as opposed to
>>> Casablanca which I watch every 2 or 3 years.
>>
>> Exactly. Personally, I'd have a hard time choosing between CASABLANCA
>> and THE THIRD MAN since they're both so damn good (although the former
>> has the advantage of the lovely Ingrid), but I'll take either one over
>> CITIZEN KANE. And on the subject of the lovely Ingrid, NOTORIOUS is more
>> of a personal favorite of mine than CK, as well.
>
> I haven't seen THE THIRD MAN in forever, and I don't think I've ever seen
> NOTORIOUS. Both added to the list.

You'll adore Claude Rains's mother in the latter. We all do.

> You ever see CASABLANCA where they run it mushed together with PLAY IT AGAIN
> SAM?

Nope, and the 70s look combined with anything Woody Allen-related pretty
much ensures that I never will. Besides, the original is just too near
and dear to me, and I don't want to pollute it in any way.

[anim8rfsk]

Ah. Well, PIAS begins with the ending of Casablanca, and pulls back to show
that Woody is watching the earlier movie. So they can just be sort of
seamlessly joined, which is a real freak out in a theater ..

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 7/22/19 at 3:09 PM:

I would watch a Jerry Lewis movie *marathon* before I'd watch anything
from Woody, and I loathe Jerry Lewis movies.

[anim8rfsk]

Well, yeah, but, Casablanca

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 7/23/19 at 9:31 PM:

> Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:16:45 -0700 Jim G.<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 7/22/19 at 3:09 PM:
>>> Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:50:03 -0700 Jim G.<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You'll adore Claude Rains's mother in the latter. We all do.
>>>>

>>>> Nope, and the 70s look combined with anything Woody Allen-related pretty
>>>> much ensures that I never will. Besides, the original is just too near
>>>> and dear to me, and I don't want to pollute it in any way.
>>>
>>> Ah. Well, PIAS begins with the ending of Casablanca, and pulls back to show
>>> that Woody is watching the earlier movie. So they can just be sort of
>>> seamlessly joined, which is a real freak out in a theater ..
>>
>> I would watch a Jerry Lewis movie *marathon* before I'd watch anything
>> from Woody, and I loathe Jerry Lewis movies.
>
> Well, yeah, but, Casablanca

And I never want to have to try to bleach a Woody association with it
from my mind. I just don't. Woody Allen is practically the antithesis of
Rick Blaine.

[Adam H. Kerman]

The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:29:55 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:

>>>>'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious
>>>>picture ever made in this country".'.

>>>>New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
>>>>-- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html

>>>I'm unclear why you're posting a 40 year old review today.

>>>As for best ever my vote would be for Doctor Strangelove.

>>That's not a "serious" picture.

>I understood 'serious' to mean "as opposed to an art school project'
>such as my daughter's IMDB credit.

>I gather you mean "non-comedy" to which I'd offer The Wizard of Oz,
>Casablanca, Hard Times, Ben Hur, The Godfather I, Gone With the Wind,
>One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Psycho just for starters as a 'top
>non-comedic' list. Just for starters.

>Admittedly many love Citizen Kane for the reveal of Kane's last words
>at the end.

What, that the Bruce Willis character didn't know he was dead?

[Adam H. Kerman]

A Friend wrote:
>Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:
>>On 2019-07-20 03:44:58 +0000, The Horny Goat said:
>>>On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:29:55 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:

>>>>>>'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious
>>>>>>picture ever made in this country".'.

>>>>>>New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985
>>>>>>-- http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html

>>>>>I'm unclear why you're posting a 40 year old review today.

>>>>>As for best ever my vote would be for Doctor Strangelove.

>>>>That's not a "serious" picture.

>>>I understood 'serious' to mean "as opposed to an art school project'
>>>such as my daughter's IMDB credit.

>>>I gather you mean "non-comedy" to which I'd offer The Wizard of Oz,
>>>Casablanca, Hard Times, Ben Hur, The Godfather I, Gone With the Wind,
>>>One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Psycho just for starters as a 'top
>>>non-comedic' list. Just for starters.

>>>Admittedly many love Citizen Kane for the reveal of Kane's last words
>>>at the end.

>>That's what I thought... until I saw it. The film is so much more than
>>that. For one thing, it's beautifully shot.

>>Yes, I agree that "Casablanca" is #1. But "Kane" or GWTW are pretty
>>much equal contenders for #2.

>I agree that Casablanca is #1.

That's interesting. The film gets the emotion and sentiment absolutely
right in a film that should have been an absolute disaster, given that
dozens of writers worked on that script. It's got the greatest group of
character actors ever assembled, and came out with absolute perfect
timing as the American public's attitude toward WWII was changing from
isolationist to support for America's involvement in the war.

Ingrid Bergman turning Humphrey Bogart into a Hollywood romantic lead
was pure movie magic. Hell, if she looked at me on film as she did at
him, I'd be a leading man too.

But I don't think of that movie as having great art direction as some of
the other movies mentioned had.

>GWTW isn't a great film at all, it's just big. Selznick's daughter once
>called it "not a great film, but a great show," and I think she's right.

Oh yes it is. I mentioned a few years or so ago that I rewatched it after
many years and it held my interest throughout. The comedy really worked.

>I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
>It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
>broken Orson's heart.)

Did the New York Times overpraise it as it was about a rival newspaper
publisher?

[anim8rfsk]

SPOILERS

[anim8rfsk]

Tue, 06 Aug 2019 08:15:15 -0700 Adam H. Kerman<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> 'The Best Serious Picture Ever Made' - Citizen Kane
> Adam H. Kerman<a...@chinet.com>
> August 6, 2019 at 8:15:15 AM MST

>
> A Friend wrote:
> > Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:
> > > On 2019-07-20 03:44:58 +0000, The Horny Goat said:
> > > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:29:55 -0700, Ian J. Ball<IJB...@mac.invalid>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > 'Citizen Kane' (1941). 'Stanley Kauffmann called it ''the best serious
> > > > > > > picture ever made in this country".'.
>
> > > > > > > New York TImes - Oct 11, 1985

> > > > > > > --http://movies2.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0506.html

It's the ceilings at Rick's.

[shawn]

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 08:47:35 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

So, are we talking about DEATH WISH or one of the DIE HARD movies? Or
maybe DEATH BECOME HER?

[A Friend]

In article <qic5i3$9a0$1...@dont-email.me>, Adam H. Kerman

I guess any intent to overpraise may be lost to history, but I remember
the Hearst-owned SF Chronicle running a story on the premiere of a
Welles film ca. 1971. For a second, everybody thought there'd finally
been a thaw, but no. When Welles died, the next-generation publisher
said he wished he'd reached out to Welles because he thought the
downhold was ridiculous; he himself was a fan of the films and of KANE,
and had wanted to talk to Welles about them. Why he didn't just go
ahead and do so, I have no idea.

[bruce bowser]

On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 5:40:08 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> On 7/20/2019 5:05 PM, Jim G. wrote:
> > A Friend sent the following on 7/20/19 at 8:44 AM:

> >> I think Citizen Kane is a fine film, but I don't worship at its altar.
> >> It doesn't make my personal Top Ten list. (I'm sure that would have
> >> broken Orson's heart.)
> >

> > I'm not as dismissive of it as you are, but I don't think that it was
> > Orson's best. I've always considered THE THIRD MAN to be a far better film.
> Carol Reed?

Its on the TCM channel right now.

[bruce bowser]

By Graham Greene. You can follow it word for word.
--