Politics and Theatre
Pizzaman95
I will try to keep this on-topic. We had another example this
week of an off topic thread that generated a bit of heat about
taking these things private. Let me take the general issue in a
different direction. The arts have long been deeply tied to the political
process and we can not lose sight of that. Often, political statements
are made through the medium of the arts, either directly as in a Ragtime
or Rent or through imagery as in Flahooley or Gulliver's Travels or even
the story of the Emporer's New Clothes. Some even claim Cinderella
is a political statement about human equality and materialism. So,
we must at least remain keenly aware of how political and social messages
can be delivered through art.
This century has seen the musical tackle some important social/political
issues like mixed races in Show Boat and South Pacific, the aftermath of
war in Miss Saigon, all those issues we have debated in Rent, prostitution
in several shows, man's inhumanity to man, etc. Most of our best examples
of this medium have some deeper social issue as a polt or subplot.
Beyond that, a group like this tends to be very well educated and probably
of above average intelligence. The issues that are important to us do
intersect the political realm, whether it is funding of arts or the right to
censor certain arts or whatever.
While I agree that totally off-topic topics need to be limited, I hope
no one really believes that a theatre newsgroup is no place for
politics for that is a dimension of many of our shows that proves the
most fertile ground for discussion. Does theatre reflect life? Does
theatre reflect values? What are the values of Rent" Is Ragtime
racist? These are all political discussions about theatre (all
incited by me) yet I hope you'll agree they do belong in a group
like this because they do represent a key aspect of our understanding
theatre.
P-man
Rick
writes a play or musical about the relationship of English common law to
partial birth abortion, I'd be happy to see those issues debated here too.
My argument was more about respecting the organization of Usenet.
Political awareness and thoughtfulness is a laudable and important goal in
any group, maybe even more so here. Despite your assertions of the
above-average intelligence of the musical theater crowd (and the related
"Ah, the pity of the uneducated audience" threads), I would argue that
there's a very real anti-intellectual strain in today's musicals,and, to a
certain extent, in their fans and practitioners. How else to explain the
fact that Cats has been running longer than Company, Follies, Sunday in
the Park with George, Floyd Collins, Flahooley and Sweney Todd combined?
Look at all the escapist fun that dominates Bway at the moment- Jeckyll
and Hyde, Pimpernell, Footloose, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King,
Smoky Joe's, Cats, POTO etc.
Why is "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown", a perfectly charming little
off-Broadway musical, being revived on Broadway? Not beacause it's
particularly thought-provoking. Because it's familiar, unthreatening, and
therefore marketable.
Maybe this is as it should be. Maybe not. But until and unless it changes,
most "thoughtful" musicals (with a few exceptions) will never make a huge
difference in society because very few people see them. They're too busy
lining up to see Snoopy, Belle, and Simba.
R.
In article <19981031115711...@ngol02.aol.com>,
Pizzaman95
In article <ricfranNOSPAM-3...@ppp-14.ts-4.nyc.idt.net>,
ricfra...@idt.net (Rick ) writes:
>
>I, for one, have no problem with anything you say below. And if someone
>writes a play or musical about the relationship of English common law to
>partial birth abortion, I'd be happy to see those issues debated here too.
>My argument was more about respecting the organization of Usenet.
>
Well, actually, I was trying to get away from THAT thread and not keep
up the argument as much as foster some thought about theatre and
politics.
>Political awareness and thoughtfulness is a laudable and important goal in
>any group, maybe even more so here. Despite your assertions of the
>above-average intelligence of the musical theater crowd (and the related
>"Ah, the pity of the uneducated audience" threads), I would argue that
>there's a very real anti-intellectual strain in today's musicals,and, to a
>certain extent, in their fans and practitioners. How else to explain the
>fact that Cats has been running longer than Company, Follies, Sunday in
>the Park with George, Floyd Collins, Flahooley and Sweney Todd combined?
>
I misspoke, I guess, I was suggesting that the true theatre fan had
those attributes rather than every lemming who goes to see CATS. Why is
CATS the long-runner it is--it entertains and does not require thought. Hey,
i didn't say that commercially successful shows necessarily carry a political
message. As for why it has run longer than those 6 (and I don't know
Floyd Collins), at least 4 are Sondheim and he just doesn't sell that
well, does he? Yet, on this group, he is adored because this group
(with the exception of me) has ther intellect to understand him.
>Look at all the escapist fun that dominates Bway at the moment- Jeckyll
>and Hyde, Pimpernell, Footloose, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King,
>Smoky Joe's, Cats, POTO etc.
>
>Why is "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown", a perfectly charming little
>off-Broadway musical, being revived on Broadway? Not beacause it's
>particularly thought-provoking. Because it's familiar, unthreatening, and
>therefore marketable.
>
Well, you do point up a very good subplot here--must you leave your
political ideals at the door to be commercially successful? I wouldn't
call all those escapists as much as entertaining but nonetheless, very
few political messages there. Yet, there may be in several others now
running--Chicago and its play on media frenzy seems so relevant post-OJ,
Les Mis deals with timeless issues, Rent, etc. However, do you run a greater
risk if you take on a real topic? What will have a longer impact upon
society--a social piece like Hair or CATS and its century-long run?
>Maybe this is as it should be. Maybe not. But until and unless it changes,
>most "thoughtful" musicals (with a few exceptions) will never make a huge
>difference in society because very few people see them. They're too busy
>lining up to see Snoopy, Belle, and Simba.
Funny, but if a show plays to 1000 people a night and runs 200 performances,
that is 200,000 people. If like South Pacific and Show Boat it runs a bit
longer, gets re-done for years on a regional level, makes it on film, etc., it
has a great impact. I'd submit that the impact of some of these Broadway
failures will far outstrip many of the "popular" shows because these failures
keep
getting redone/reshown and find audiences all around the country, not
just New York.
>
>R.
>
David Levy
> risk if you take on a real topic? What will have a longer impact upon
> society--a social piece like Hair or CATS and its century-long run?
Was HAIR really a social piece? Granted, I wasn't around in 1968 and
only know what's been handed down to me, but there's certainly a lot of
satire. A lot of it feels cleaned up for the tourists in the Broadway
production, but the script and album from the Off-Broadway original seem
to at least figure some political commentary.
--
levy, david l.
"Anybody can prevail.
Everybody's free to fail.
No one can be put in jail for their dreams."
Melanie Lynch
>
> From the fingers of Pizzaman95 <pizza...@aol.com>:
> > risk if you take on a real topic? What will have a longer impact upon
> > society--a social piece like Hair or CATS and its century-long run?
>
> Was HAIR really a social piece? Granted, I wasn't around in 1968 and
> only know what's been handed down to me, but there's certainly a lot of
> satire. A lot of it feels cleaned up for the tourists in the Broadway
> production, but the script and album from the Off-Broadway original seem
> to at least figure some political commentary.
>
If it is done as was originally written, absolutely. Speaking as a child
of the 60's who DOES remember, it was a pretty fair reflection of a lot
of the political unrest and confusion that was going on. It also showed
fairly accurately a lot of the bohemian lifestyle (at least, that which
I can remember from high school and college.)
I recently saw a college production of it with a couple of women who are
my mother's age and the concensus was "I remember that." We had to
explain a few of the finer points to the cast who were all in their
20's..
When it was over, all I could think of was how insipid a lot of those
chants and slogans were that were so easily thrown around.
Melanie
Melanie
Frederick
Well stated, P-Man. I personally regret my participation in last week's
thread, mainly because it went too
far and got way too personal (although I do find it offensive when
someone tells me I am going to hell for
my personal convictions). And I agree that intelligent and
thought-provoking discussions can be had, on a
variety of subjects, in the context of musical theatre, as you
suggested.
I don't think Alisia did anything wrong in her original post, except,
perhaps, in inviting a combative response from Karen,
which Ms. Horn certainly delivered. I think you were correct when you
noted that, if we are going to live with each
other, as fellow RATM'ers, part of that experience should be in knowing
what makes us "tick" as individuals.
But unfortunately, last week's thread got out of hand, and, despite the
efforts of some individuals to make cogent
and coherent points, it collapsed into a barrage of personal insults
and "God is on my side" type of argument, which,
I have learned over the years, nobody is going to win.
Mea culpa....Let's talk about why CATS sucks so much.
Regards,
Frederick
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
it's just me
>
> Was HAIR really a social piece? Granted, I wasn't around in 1968 and
> only know what's been handed down to me, but there's certainly a lot of
> satire. A lot of it feels cleaned up for the tourists in the Broadway
> production, but the script and album from the Off-Broadway original seem
> to at least figure some political commentary.
Hair was a social piece in more ways than I care to go into at the moment.
I would definately agree though that the show went through a major change
and "whitewashing" from it's transfer from the cheetah and the papp to the
biltmore.
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CAN asst editor: Contemporary A cappella News
Music Director: Pick Up 6 modern a cappella
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MamaNilla is lord of the universe.
Karen Horn
: Well stated, P-Man. I personally regret my participation in last week's
: thread, mainly because it went too
: far and got way too personal (although I do find it offensive when
: someone tells me I am going to hell for
: my personal convictions). And I agree that intelligent and
: thought-provoking discussions can be had, on a
: variety of subjects, in the context of musical theatre, as you
: suggested.
And I found it offensive because you refused to read the conditionals
made in statements and pretend complex statements say 90 degrees different
than what they actually do.
: I don't think Alisia did anything wrong in her original post, except,
: perhaps, in inviting a combative response from Karen,
: which Ms. Horn certainly delivered. I think you were correct when you
No duh. Actually I thought it was dumb to post an inflammatory post
by Michael Moore.
: Mea culpa....Let's talk about why CATS sucks so much.
Now that, I can get behind. Which cat is the suckiest?
: Regards,
: Frederick
Karen
Pizzaman95
In article <8mm%1.9595$el4.18...@c01read02.service.talkway.com>, "Frederick"
<rasho...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Mea culpa....Let's talk about why CATS sucks so much.
>
>Regards
Well, I believe it is because they allow those black and white
cats to mate with the orange ones, they have one male cat sniffing
around another one, the head cat had an affair with the intern
cat and now they have legallized late-term litter reductions.
P-man
Seatt...@my-dejanews.com
> : Mea culpa....Let's talk about why CATS sucks so much.
>
> Now that, I can get behind. Which cat is the suckiest?
>
No question for me....its that Grizabella cat or whatever the hell her name
is. Who wants to hear her sing about her breasts for five minutes. Hell, I
didnt even think cats had breasts.
Frederick
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Catherine Skidmore
>
> Karen Horn wrote:
> > : Mea culpa....Let's talk about why CATS sucks so much.
> >
> > Now that, I can get behind. Which cat is the suckiest?
> >
>
> No question for me....its that Grizabella cat or whatever the hell her name
> is. Who wants to hear her sing about her breasts for five minutes. Hell, I
> didnt even think cats had breasts.
it's "Memory," not "Mammary."
-catherine
--
Catherine Skidmore
http://www.suck-my-big.org
"I am not posing as anyone else and that is the LAST time I will dignify
your idiotic ramblings with a response." - danbel
Seatt...@my-dejanews.com
>
> it's "Memory," not "Mammary."
>
> -catherine
>
OHHHH......................
Never mind!
-frederick
David Levy
> it's "Memory," not "Mammary."
Lunch time,
Not a drop from the nipple,
Has the mom lost her mammary?
Am I dining alone?
--
yveld
"I'm looking for someone who's looking for someone who's looking for
someone like you."
Melanie Lynch
> >
>
> OHHHH......................
>
> Never mind!
>
> -frederick
>
Men!
Melanie
Tim Gowen
>Men!
...have no breasts!
Anyway, much as I love the idea of talking breasts to Melanie and
Catherine in a thread about Cats, clearly "Burned out ends of smoky
days" is nothing to do with bra burning, but everything to do with
excessive drug use. That and all the sound from the pavement stuff, and
"Sunlight through the trees in summer..."
Grizabella was doing so many drugs it just isn't true.
:-)
Tim
--
"Und die frauline mit der glockenspiel | change
und die bastenholde--verboten! Und die | nospam to
Apfelstrudel mit der liedergrand- Gezundheit!" | equipoise
- Stalag 17 | to reply
****** The RATM FAQ http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/Tim/Tim.htm ******
car...@my-dejanews.com
go to enjoy the views of other while others just go to relax and forget the
problems of the world.
I didn't particularly enjoy Cats but I can appreciate that it is a show that
parents can take their children to and they will really enjoy it. Not every
show has to be a success because of its political or non policital views.
I never had any interest in the theater when I was growing up because I
thought it more for adults or more wealthy people but the first time I went
to see a show I could see that it was enjoyable for children and wished I had
seen more shows before.
Theater should be enjoyed and should be for all sorts of people not just the
select few.