Exceptionalism in SF- Mostly American?

[Alie...@gmail.com]

More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with limits driving much of our achievement.

Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven had used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out that America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American. From what non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are often represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.

Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is _Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain, but did they get that from us or is it home-grown?


Mark L. Fergerson

[JRStern]

I'm sure it's more in American scifi, but isn't about 90% of
first-rate scifi American anyway, with a few Brits thrown in to take
it above 95%?

J.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:21:56 -0700, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
><Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with limits driving much of our achievement.
>>
>> Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven had used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out that America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American. From what non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are often represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.
>>
>> Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is _Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain, but did they get that from us or is it home-grown?

Pretty sure it's home grown, based on Japanese historical national
exceptionalism.

More generally, it's dull to write stories where we're the downltrodden
slaves who aren't even bright enough to stage a competent revolt.
Stories tend to be about change, and without exceptional representation
from the usually human protagonists there isn't going to be much.

>I'm sure it's more in American scifi, but isn't about 90% of
>first-rate scifi American anyway, with a few Brits thrown in to take
>it above 95%?

No, that's selection bias. There are hotspots of SF production around
the world, much of which isn't translated. There's no money in it unless
there's already an English reading audience, so bootstrapping just
doesn't happen much and you never see it.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Hard as nails, hard as nails - So would you be if you lived one hundred
and eighty years on sunflower seeds and biscuit crumbs." - Polynesia

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 4 July 2014 05:21:56 UTC+1, JRStern wrote:
> I'm sure it's more in American scifi, but isn't about 90% of
> first-rate scifi American anyway, with a few Brits thrown in to take
> it above 95%?

We British are exceptional, too. We had, were,
an Empire.

But I think it's a common design of sci-fi story
to present an obstacle to human characters -
and then portray us overcoming it, with Science!

An opposite exists, where we overreach ourselves,
and either fall flat on our face, or get slapped
in it.

[Brenda Clough]

I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

Brenda

--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[James Nicoll]

In article <lp6egp$fa2$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 7/3/2014 11:42 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort
>of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful
>empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without
>help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with
>limits driving much of our achievement.
>>
>> Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a
>review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven had
>used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out that
>America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American. From what
>non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are often
>represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.
>>
>> Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a
>better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its
>authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly
>naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is
>_Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may
>just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no
>problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain, but did they get that
>from us or is it home-grown?
>

>I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
>by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
>standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

More a failure to understand how close to bankruptcy the Second World
War took the UK. They didn't kill off thousands of people burning dodgy
coal for fun. Well, the Tories might have but that wasn't the main reason.

The UK did start putting stuff in orbit on their own launchers by 1971,
whereas certain nations seem happy to use other countries' launchers.


--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[Mark Bestley]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
> by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
> standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

You need to consider when he started writing and what he saw during WWII
(e.g. Glide path). At that time UK aeronautics was equal to US and
German so having a space program was just continuing as usual. Also he
could have been writing first for a Commonwealth audience to begin with.

However money had run out fighting the war (and paying the US) so this
did not happen. e.g. UK stopped their attempt to get the first
supersonic flight in 1946 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_M.52>


--
Mark

[James Nicoll]

In article <67728502-1066-4ed9...@googlegroups.com>,

nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of
>exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful
>empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without
>help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with
>limits driving much of our achievement.
>
> Is this peculiar to American SF?

Are you asking if American SF is exceptional?

Interestingly, I came across an example of real world exceptionalism in
Canada's far right rag The Globe and Mail:

"I do believe that Canada can make an honest claim to being the most
open-minded and open-hearted place on earth. For two decades now, a land
once occupied by descendants of European settlers has been importing just
under 1 per cent of its population annually . 258,000 in 2012, more than
five million in total . with most new arrivals coming from Asia and the
Pacific. No other country on earth has done such a thing. No country brings
in as many immigrants as we do, on a per capita basis, from as many
different places. And we all get along with each other amazingly well."

Americans may at this moment be sitting up with annoyance but while the
US does very well with absolute numbers, they're around average for the OECD
in %. Canada has a decent number of immigrants but we've consistantly failed
to trawl the world for proto-Canadians as effectively as we could have. [1]

Canada, the most open-minded and open-hearted place on earth, happens to
be the only country on the planet to take a pro-drought position and is
in process of burning its libraries to eradicate inconvenient information.
Also, while I admit other place probably tried this, it's the only nation
I know for a fact used an electric chair for class room discipline.

I've definitely seen Canadian SF that took a "Canada, the most open-minded
and open-hearted place on earth" angle, usually by contrasting it with the
US. There was one Rob Sawyer where pretty much everything the Canadian lead
said about the US was either incorrect or correct but misleading (New York
did have the death penalty at the time but were so reluctant to use it
the most recent execution was back in the days when Bobby Darin was winning
Golden Globes). I honestly couldn't make up my mind whether Sawyer was playing
to the Canadian readers in a way Americans wouldn't pick up on (since they
probably don't know as much about the US as a Canadian would) or if it was
characterization.


1: And far as proportions go (long)

Country Immigrants as % of national population
Holy See 100.0
United Arab Emirates 83.7
Qatar 1,600,955 73.8
American Samoa 71.2
Caribbean Netherlands 65.9
Monaco 64.2
Falkland Islands 62.1
Kuwait 60.2
Sint Maarten 59.7
United States Virgin Islands 59.3
Macau 58.8
Andorra 56.9
Bahrain 54.7
Isle of Man 52.0
Channel Islands 51.0
Northern Mariana Islands 49.9
Guam 49.6
Brunei 49.3
Anguilla 45.6
Luxembourg 43.3
French Guiana 43.3
Singapore 42.9
Jordan 40.2
Hong Kong 38.9
Niue 37.1
Aruba 34.9
Liechtenstein 33.1
Gibraltar 33.0
Mayotte 32.9
British Virgin Islands 32.3
Antigua and Barbuda 31.9
Saudi Arabia 31.4
Oman 30.6
Bermuda 29.1
Switzerland 28.9
Palau 27.8
Australia 27.7
Israel 26.5
Montserrat 25.9
Tokelau 25.4
New Zealand 25.1
New Caledonia 24.8
Turks and Caicos Islands 24.8
Maldives 24.4
Gabon 23.6
Curacao 23.2
Kazakhstan 21.1
Nauru 21.1
Guadeloupe 20.8
Canada 20.7

[James Nicoll]

In article <tracr9ht53gbabpa4...@4ax.com>,

JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote:

>I'm sure it's more in American scifi, but isn't about 90% of
>first-rate scifi American anyway, with a few Brits thrown in to take
>it above 95%?

There's a lot of good SF Americans who aren't willing to do some digging
will never see, especially the material that isn't in English.

For example, while American animated SF is generally garbage, if I am
willing to read subtitles Japan animation has some pretty good shows.

[Malygris]

The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production, Perry Rhodan is pretty
much what you describe above, but then the series was, from the beginning,
quite obviously modeled after American SF.

What I read of Lem and the Strugatskis was a different thing altogether. The
Strugatzkis' noon universe had some instances of humanity being superior to
several humanoid cultures they encountered, but only because we, by the time
of the novels, had successfully achieved Socialist Utopia and the others
were still on their way there - and as I read it the Strugatzkis even
subverted that as far as they could without risking trouble.

--
Malygris

[J. Clarke]

In article <lp6egp$fa2$1...@dont-email.me>, Brenda...@yahoo.com says...

>
> On 7/3/2014 11:42 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> > More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with limits driving much of our achievement.
> >
> > Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven had used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out that America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American. From what non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are often represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.
> >
> > Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is _Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain,
but did they get that from us or is it home-grown?
> >
> >
> > Mark L. Fergerson
>
>
> I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
> by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
> standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

Remember, Ian Fleming had the same.

Both were used to a time when Britain had a real empire with the wealth
to do such things.

[James Nicoll]

In article <c1o2b0...@mid.individual.net>,

Malygris <Highlan...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production, Perry Rhodan is pretty
>much what you describe above, but then the series was, from the beginning,
>quite obviously modeled after American SF.
>
>What I read of Lem and the Strugatskis was a different thing altogether. The
>Strugatzkis' noon universe had some instances of humanity being superior to
>several humanoid cultures they encountered, but only because we, by the time
>of the novels, had successfully achieved Socialist Utopia and the others
>were still on their way there - and as I read it the Strugatzkis even
>subverted that as far as they could without risking trouble.

The new editions include the surviving brother's account of the joys of
publishing SF in that time and place. They weren't able to escape heat,
sometimes for events completely unrelated to their books.

[James Nicoll]

In article <lp6lni$njn$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <c1o2b0...@mid.individual.net>,
>Malygris <Highlan...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production, Perry Rhodan is pretty
>>much what you describe above, but then the series was, from the beginning,
>>quite obviously modeled after American SF.
>>
>>What I read of Lem and the Strugatskis was a different thing altogether. The
>>Strugatzkis' noon universe had some instances of humanity being superior to
>>several humanoid cultures they encountered, but only because we, by the time
>>of the novels, had successfully achieved Socialist Utopia and the others
>>were still on their way there - and as I read it the Strugatzkis even
>>subverted that as far as they could without risking trouble.
>
>The new editions include the surviving brother's account of the joys of
>publishing SF in that time and place. They weren't able to escape heat,
>sometimes for events completely unrelated to their books.

Hard to be a God is oddly reminiscent of Lloyd Biggle in some ways, which
isn't a comparison I'd have thought to make.

[A.G.McDowell]

There is a UK space program - it's just not very big or very flashy, and
most of it is done via ESA these days. The UK decided not to build their
own launcher after

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_%28missile%29,
and for a long time they wouldn't spend money on manned space travel.
The UK company I work for has worked on UK or UK/ESA projects such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_%28satellite%29,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_satellite,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Field_and_SteadyState_Ocean_Circulation_Explorer
(GOCE),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_2,
and others. I only get called in on the Space side every now and then
- when I do I get to say "I'm not from Space - I just work there" :-)

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 4, 2014 8:42:16 AM UTC-6, bre...@sff.net wrote:

> I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
> by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
> standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

When looking at popular culture SF, particularly for children, it doesn't surprise me that French comic books or TV shows feature astronauts being launched into space by a French space program, with the same applying to Germany, Japan, Britain, or even such unlikely places as Sweden or Canada. This is simply so the audience can better relate to and identify with the protagonists and get caught up in the excitement of Exploring! Space!.

John Savard

[William December Starr]

In article <b1fff26c-d152-4f82...@googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> But I think it's a common design of sci-fi story
> to present an obstacle to human characters -
> and then portray us overcoming it, with Science!

Or guts. See "Idiot Stick," by Damon Knight
(1958), which balanced the two.

(And now looking at its publication history
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41296
I can't for the life of me figure out _where_
I read it. None of the entries look likely.)

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <MPG.2e20a0116...@news.newsguy.com>,
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> said:

> Brenda...@yahoo.com says...

>
>> I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being
>> struck by how there was a British space program. Really? From my
>> American standpoint this was clearly a case of British
>> exceptionalism.
>
> Remember, Ian Fleming had the same.
>
> Both were used to a time when Britain had a real empire with the
> wealth to do such things.

Mind you, didn't Fleming have his Great Britain not building but
simply _buying_ its space program from some shady private contractor
with a name even less credible than "Strangelove"?

-- wds

[Kurt Busiek]

Are you thinking, perhaps, of Hugo Drax?

If so, that wasn't a space program, but a nuclear missile program, and
since Drax was named after the real-life Admiral the Hon. Sir Reginald
Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, younger brother to fantasy
author Lord Dunsany, his name is positively plain by comparison.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[JRStern]

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:42:16 -0400, Brenda Clough
<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
>by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
>standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.

Er, well, or maybe plagiarism.

I mean, look at Douglas Adams, he takes the British love of tea into
his stories, that I take it counts as "authentic".

J.

[Greg Goss]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>When looking at popular culture SF, particularly for children, it doesn't surprise me that French comic books or TV shows feature astronauts being launched into space by a French space program, with the same applying to Germany, Japan, Britain, or even such unlikely places as Sweden or Canada. This is simply so the audience can better relate to and identify with the protagonists and get caught up in the excitement of Exploring! Space!.

Or Grand Fenwick.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, July 3, 2014 11:42:31 PM UTC-4, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort
> of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient,
> powerful empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has
> without help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession
> with limits driving much of our achievement.
>

> Is this peculiar to American SF? [snip-snip]

Well, Team Human did quite well during the Golden Age, but it wasn't
all roses for Homo sapiens. For example, consider
_Astounding Science Fiction, August 1948_
(http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?57412). It contains van Vogt's
"The Monster", perhaps the ultimate "Terra uber alles" story. OTOH
it also contains Harness's "Time Trap", in which humans are puny
insignificant creatures caught up in a battle of titans whose powers
and motivations we can't even begin to imagine.

I don't have the numbers, but my guess is that it wasn't until after
the Golden Age that Campbell's emphasis on human exceptionalism really
began to get out of hand.

[William December Starr]

In article <lp7aca$odg$1...@dont-email.me>,

Yes, but it wouldn't have been if his name had been "Moonraker"
as my fevered brain was certain that it was when I wrote that.

As Emily Litella would say, never mind...

-- wds

[David Johnston]

Moonraker was the name of the missile.
>

[Greg Goss]

>Moonraker was the name of the missile.

That's why "never mind". He got there eventually, but still before
your post.

[Kurt Busiek]

It was the missile that was "Moonraker," as I recall.

Plus, it's a reference to smugglers in some old folklore, which I think
was meant as a hint at Drax's criminal aims.

[Dirk van den Boom]

Am 04.07.2014 18:16, schrieb Malygris:

> nu...@bid.nes wrote:

> The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production

How do you come to that number? It's widely exaggerated.


--
www.sf-boom-blog.de

[Malygris]

Dirk van den Boom wrote:

> Am 04.07.2014 18:16, schrieb Malygris:
>> nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>
>> The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production
>
> How do you come to that number? It's widely exaggerated.

Yeah, sorry, forgot the sarcasm tag.

--
Malygris

[Sjouke Burry]

I just re-read number 1307,
original title "Vorstoss in den Dunkelen Himmel".
Dutch title "Aanval in de duisternis"
I stopped buying the series at number 1630.
At 52 a year,that took me 31.3 years to collect.
Google tells me, that the series is at 2100 at this moment,
or about 40.3 years.

[Malygris]

Sjouke Burry wrote:

> On 05.07.14 16:14, Malygris wrote:
>> Dirk van den Boom wrote:
>>
>>> Am 04.07.2014 18:16, schrieb Malygris:
>>>> nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>>>
>>>> The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production
>>>
>>> How do you come to that number? It's widely exaggerated.
>>
>> Yeah, sorry, forgot the sarcasm tag.
>>
> I just re-read number 1307,
> original title "Vorstoss in den Dunkelen Himmel".
> Dutch title "Aanval in de duisternis"
> I stopped buying the series at number 1630.

Funny, that's about the time I started reading ;-)

I stopped around 2150 or so. Still don't know if the series changed or my
taste did...

> At 52 a year,that took me 31.3 years to collect.
> Google tells me, that the series is at 2100 at this moment,
> or about 40.3 years.

Actually, the latest number is 2759. Or were you talking about the Dutch
edition?

--
Malygris

[JRStern]

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
<Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help,

Well, Brin leaves significant ambiguity there, and "heights" is just a
minimal sapience it still leaves us culturally very backwards.

Until and unless he goes back and plays out some open strings he's
left all over the place.

But meanwhile we may be abandoned children, or it may be much more
common than the galactics like to admit that sapience develops
independently, or we may be a very special case, or we may be lucky,
or we may be good.

Maybe have some Niven puppeteers cross over and help resolve things,
but if you have puppeteers I suppose you need the rest too, protectors
and kzin at least, and a few outsiders.

J.

[Sjouke Burry]

The Dutch one. And any Google hit might be a bit outdated.....

[Dirk van den Boom]

Am 05.07.2014 20:13, schrieb Malygris:

> I stopped around 2150 or so. Still don't know if the series changed or my
> taste did...

That's around where I stopped, too, after around 30 years of reading it.
Maybe I got tired.


--
www.sf-boom-blog.de

[Jack Bohn]

On Friday, July 4, 2014 12:16:31 PM UTC-4, Malygris wrote:
> nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>
> > More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of
> > exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful
> > empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without
> > help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with
> > limits driving much of our achievement.
> >

...

> >
>
> > Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a
> > better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its
> > authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly
> > naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is
> > _Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may
> > just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no
> > problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain, but did they get that
> > from us or is it home-grown?
>
> The series making up 90% of Germany's SF production, Perry Rhodan is pretty
> much what you describe above, but then the series was, from the beginning,
> quite obviously modeled after American SF.
>
> What I read of Lem and the Strugatskis was a different thing altogether. The
> Strugatzkis' noon universe had some instances of humanity being superior to
> several humanoid cultures they encountered, but only because we, by the time
> of the novels, had successfully achieved Socialist Utopia and the others
> were still on their way there - and as I read it the Strugatzkis even
> subverted that as far as they could without risking trouble.

Coincidentally, I just finished renting from Netflix three East German science fiction films, basically this package:
http://www.amazon.com/DEFA-Sci-Fi-Collection-Yoko-Tani/dp/B0009WIEHU
(According to extras on the DVDS, only four were made by East Germany; these and
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066379/
called "an answer to '2001'") They do all present a future of International Communism working in harmony, and all take an interest in alien life, but only the last (in English, "In the Dust of the Stars") features a living culture -- it could be Earth colonies or nations in space, the story doesn't seem interested in exploring the question, but one of the extras mentions not being able to something "alien" convincingly -- and the Human expedition makes a question of whether to help them or be satisfied with "history," which, with the fact that the subtitles translated the title of the alien leader as "Boss," did make me wonder if there was a subtext that the aliens would become communist eventually and have their problems "wither away." ("Boss" could just be a flukey translation. "Eolomea" twice makes reference to a theory that missing spaceships met "antibodies," I'm sure it means "antimatter.")

--
-Jack

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 5, 2014 11:17:06 AM UTC-7, JRStern wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
>
> <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help,
>
> Well, Brin leaves significant ambiguity there, and "heights" is just a
> minimal sapience it still leaves us culturally very backwards.

I didn't mean our intellectual or technological achievements but rather that we had already Uplifted two (three? was it dogs, chimps, and dolphins?) species by the time we were contacted by the Galactics.

> Until and unless he goes back and plays out some open strings he's
> left all over the place.

I don't mind an author leaving room for a sequel or two but yeah, he left whole mansions for series.

> But meanwhile we may be abandoned children, or it may be much more
> common than the galactics like to admit that sapience develops
> independently, or we may be a very special case, or we may be lucky,
> or we may be good.

But indisputably exceptional.

> Maybe have some Niven puppeteers cross over and help resolve things,
> but if you have puppeteers I suppose you need the rest too, protectors
> and kzin at least, and a few outsiders.

Well, as far as I got into the series, all I knew was that the origins of Uplifting were lost in the mists of the past, and the chain of Patronage gets fuzzier the farther back you go. So yeah, some Galactics (largely those with many clients to their "credit") insist that humans must have been Uplifted by an unknown Galactic species but have no proof.

I suppose there's room for Puppeteers and whatnot (talk about interesting crossovers- Tnuctipun ab-Slavers-ul-Bandersnatchi...) but maybe somebody will just find a first edition of the Encyclopedia Galactica?


Mark L. Fergerson

[Greg Goss]

"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 5, 2014 11:17:06 AM UTC-7, JRStern wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
>>
>> <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help,
>>
>> Well, Brin leaves significant ambiguity there, and "heights" is just a
>> minimal sapience it still leaves us culturally very backwards.
>
> I didn't mean our intellectual or technological achievements but rather that we had already Uplifted two (three? was it dogs, chimps, and dolphins?) species by the time we were contacted by the Galactics.

I don't think dogs were "in". For that matter, I don't remember them
being mentioned later, either. I think that the third species was a
secret project that was featured in a later novel.

>> Until and unless he goes back and plays out some open strings he's
>> left all over the place.
>
> I don't mind an author leaving room for a sequel or two but yeah, he left whole mansions for series.

For decades I've wanted to read the rest of the Streaker stories.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 6 July 2014 03:54:32 UTC+1, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Coincidentally, I just finished renting from Netflix three
> East German science fiction films, basically this package:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DEFA-Sci-Fi-Collection-Yoko-Tani/dp/B0009WIEHU
>
> (According to extras

I believe that those people prefer to be called "background artists".
Or in Britain, "background artistes".

;-)

> on the DVDS, only four were made by East Germany; these and
> <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066379/>
>
> called "an answer to '2001'") They do all present a future of
> International Communism working in harmony, and all take an
> interest in alien life, but only the last (in English,
> "In the Dust of the Stars") features a living culture --
> it could be Earth colonies or nations in space, the story
> doesn't seem interested in exploring the question, but one
> of the extras mentions not being able to something "alien"
> convincingly --

To portray something convincingly? Pronounce something convincingly?

> and the Human expedition makes a question of whether to
> help them or be satisfied with "history," which, with the
> fact that the subtitles translated the title of the alien
> leader as "Boss," did make me wonder if there was a subtext
> that the aliens would become communist eventually and have
> their problems "wither away." ("Boss" could just be a
> flukey translation. "Eolomea" twice makes reference to
> a theory that missing spaceships met "antibodies," I'm sure
> it means "antimatter.")

1. International Communism had the Prime Directive?
But was defeated by the Ferengi...

2. Star Trek had a story set on Sigma Iotia II -
"A Piece of the Action".

3. And another episode called "The Immunity Syndrome".

[Jack Bohn]

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 4:24:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 6 July 2014 03:54:32 UTC+1, Jack Bohn wrote:
>
> > Coincidentally, I just finished renting from Netflix three
> > East German science fiction films, basically this package:
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/DEFA-Sci-Fi-Collection-Yoko-Tani/dp/B0009WIEHU
> >
> > (According to extras
>
> I believe that those people prefer to be called "background artists".
> Or in Britain, "background artistes".
>
> ;-)

:)
Don't let him confuse you, folks. I meant DVD extras, or, as they prefer to be called, "Value Added Material." Considering I was at first just looking for a clearer version of "First Spaceship on Venus", these extras did a good job of advertising the rest of the films, especially for a former communist company.

> > on the DVDS, only four were made by East Germany; these and
> > <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066379/>
> >
> > called "an answer to '2001'") They do all present a future of
> > International Communism working in harmony, and all take an
> > interest in alien life, but only the last (in English,
> > "In the Dust of the Stars") features a living culture --
> > it could be Earth colonies or nations in space, the story
> > doesn't seem interested in exploring the question, but one
> > of the extras mentions not being able to something "alien"
> > convincingly --
>
> To portray something convincingly? Pronounce something convincingly?

Portray. He jokes our spaceship crew should land and step out and be met by a wave of snails, broadcasting their thoughts, calms down to different eye or skin color, finally just throws his hands up as "what can you do?"

> > and the Human expedition makes a question of whether to
> > help them or be satisfied with "history," which, with the
> > fact that the subtitles translated the title of the alien
> > leader as "Boss," did make me wonder if there was a subtext
> > that the aliens would become communist eventually and have
> > their problems "wither away." ("Boss" could just be a
> > flukey translation. "Eolomea" twice makes reference to
> > a theory that missing spaceships met "antibodies," I'm sure
> > it means "antimatter.")
>
>
> 1. International Communism had the Prime Directive?

This spaceship had a crew... I forget, in the range of half a dozen. For the aliens, they did use dozens of -er, "background artists" for a party scene, and what looks impressively like hundreds for some outdoors scene.

> But was defeated by the Ferengi...
>
> 2. Star Trek had a story set on Sigma Iotia II -
> "A Piece of the Action".
>
> 3. And another episode called "The Immunity Syndrome".

Oh, and "Operation: Annihilate!" with giant individual brain cells.

I would say "In the Dust of the Stars" is East Germany's answer to third season Star Trek.

(I'm still amazed that the whole country, in all of its existence, produced four sf films. MGM by itself... well, here's their package:
http://shop.tcm.com/detail.php?p=334424&SESSID=1c214e7a69b01fcd57632f30c6169c73&pa=sli_internal
)

--
-Jack

[Dirk van den Boom]

Am 06.07.2014 13:27, schrieb Jack Bohn:

> (I'm still amazed that the whole country, in all of its existence, produced four sf films. MGM by itself... well, here's their package:
> http://shop.tcm.com/detail.php?p=334424&SESSID=1c214e7a69b01fcd57632f30c6169c73&pa=sli_internal
> )
>

What do you expect? It was a centralized and planned film industry,
where party-officials decided what was good for their audience and not
the market. There was a brief phase where directors got some leeway and
were allowed to breach into new territory, but it ended and with it the
experiment of producing SF-movies.

Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film industry has not
been much better, with the notable exception of "our Star Trek", the
short-lived but highly acclaimed TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).


--
www.sf-boom-blog.de

[JRStern]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 02:14:37 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, July 5, 2014 11:17:06 AM UTC-7, JRStern wrote:
>>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
>>>
>>> <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help,
>>>
>>> Well, Brin leaves significant ambiguity there, and "heights" is just a
>>> minimal sapience it still leaves us culturally very backwards.
>>
>> I didn't mean our intellectual or technological achievements but rather that we had already Uplifted two (three? was it dogs, chimps, and dolphins?) species by the time we were contacted by the Galactics.

Chimps and dolphins, with an illegal gorilla uplift on Garth.

>I don't think dogs were "in". For that matter, I don't remember them
>being mentioned later, either. I think that the third species was a
>secret project that was featured in a later novel.
>
>>> Until and unless he goes back and plays out some open strings he's
>>> left all over the place.
>>
>> I don't mind an author leaving room for a sequel or two but yeah, he left whole mansions for series.
>
>For decades I've wanted to read the rest of the Streaker stories.

Well they did finish off the Streaker thread since it got back to
Earth and was half-melted at the end, but with plenty of loose ends
all the same, and Tom Orley is still out there in the lifeboat or
whatever, and the hydrogen life forms living in our Sun, and the
progenitor fleet floating around on the periphery, and, and, and, ...

J.

[Scott Lurndal]

"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> writes:
> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort of exc=
>eption or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful empires,=
> Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without help, and of c=
>ourse Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with limits driving much =
>of our achievement.

And Ron Jingo has the earthers as better than all the other galactic
races due to the fact that they have no inhibitions about killing other
beings (including themselves).

Then there was "With Friends like these...".

[William December Starr]

In article <c1suo8...@mid.individual.net>,

Dirk van den Boom <spam...@sf-boom.de> said:

> Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film
> industry has not been much better, with the notable exception
> of "our Star Trek", the short-lived but highly acclaimed
> TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).

Wasn't that the talking rat in a Disney film a few years ago?

-- wds (no, not "Charlotte's Web")

[William Hyde]

Plus, it's another nautical reference.

William Hyde

[Robert Bannister]

On 6/07/2014 1:10 pm, nu...@bid.nes wrote:

> Well, as far as I got into the series, all I knew was that the
> origins of Uplifting were lost in the mists of the past, and the
> chain of Patronage gets fuzzier the farther back you go. So yeah,
> some Galactics (largely those with many clients to their "credit")
> insist that humans must have been Uplifted by an unknown Galactic
> species but have no proof.

Let's hope they pass this way again soon. Humans definitely need a bit
of Uplifting right now.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 7:10:01 AM UTC+10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> And Ron Jingo has the earthers as better than all the other galactic
> races due to the fact that they have no inhibitions about killing other
> beings (including themselves).

Better than is somewhat of a misrepresentation there.
Humans become vitally important to the other galactic races because a ravenous horde is causing real issues to the other races and humans are the best chance of stopping it.

As the series goes on I believe our use of mass construction techniques becomes more important than our willingness to kill.

[David Johnston]

On 7/7/2014 8:21 PM, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 7:10:01 AM UTC+10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> And Ron Jingo has the earthers as better than all the other
>> galactic races due to the fact that they have no inhibitions about
>> killing other beings (including themselves).
>
> Better than is somewhat of a misrepresentation there. Humans become
> vitally important to the other galactic races because a ravenous
> horde is causing real issues to the other races and humans are the
> best chance of stopping it.

Not seeing how that's a misrepresentation.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

"Better than" is somewhat different than "Better at" or iirc in this case "able to kill things without going catatonic"

[David Johnston]

So we're the only ones who aren't mentally handicapped.

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 6:46:01 AM UTC-6, Dirk van den Boom wrote:

> Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film industry has not
> been much better, with the notable exception of "our Star Trek", the
> short-lived but highly acclaimed TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).

The German-language dubbed version of Star Trek itself is legendary for being awful.

Apparently, though, the problem is fundamental: serious SF just did not have a market in Germany, and instead those with an interest in SF were largely content with Perry Rhodan and the like.

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

_Ratatouille_. It's vegetable stew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumpatrouille_%E2%80%93_Die_phantastischen_Abenteuer_des_Raumschiffes_Orion

is the fella.

[Dirk van den Boom]

Am 08.07.2014 09:32, schrieb Quadibloc:

> The German-language dubbed version of Star Trek itself is legendary for being awful.

Actually, there could be worse.

>
> Apparently, though, the problem is fundamental: serious SF just did not have a market in Germany

Where did you get that from? Of course I don't know what you consider as
"serious SF", but looking at the stuff published here, the mixture is
not that different than from what I see reviewed in LOCUS. It is surely
LESS and the amount sold is less as well, but it's simply a smaller
market, therefore this needs to be considered.
Of course, since amazon.de opened its service, many German readers buy
their anglophone SF directly and don't wait for the translation. So we
have a decline in translated SF, I'd agree with that.

, and instead those with an interest in SF were largely content with
Perry Rhodan and the like.

While Perry Rhodan played an important role in the socialization-process
of many German SF-readers, its dominance had clearly faded over the
decades. Aside from that, you might consider that possibly somewhere
within those thousands of novels and dime-novels, there might even be
something you'd regard as "serious"...

--
www.sf-boom-blog.de

[Malygris]

Dirk van den Boom wrote:

> Am 08.07.2014 09:32, schrieb Quadibloc:
>
>> The German-language dubbed version of Star Trek itself is legendary for
>> being awful.
>
> Actually, there could be worse.
>
>>
>> Apparently, though, the problem is fundamental: serious SF just did not
>> have a market in Germany
>
> Where did you get that from? Of course I don't know what you consider as
> "serious SF", but looking at the stuff published here, the mixture is
> not that different than from what I see reviewed in LOCUS. It is surely
> LESS and the amount sold is less as well, but it's simply a smaller
> market, therefore this needs to be considered.

My impression was always that it's the perception of the general public here
in Germany that places SF in the pulp/kiddy corner and less the SF fans'
opinion.

>> , and instead those with an interest in SF were largely content with
>> Perry Rhodan and the like.
>
> While Perry Rhodan played an important role in the socialization-process
> of many German SF-readers, its dominance had clearly faded over the
> decades. Aside from that, you might consider that possibly somewhere
> within those thousands of novels and dime-novels, there might even be
> something you'd regard as "serious"...

Despite my sarcastic 90% comment I have to agree. It might at times have
looked like there's no SF outside PR, but the series importance has faded
and even in the day when it ruled the pulps there were other titles which
were less "pulp entertainment".

Just not that much of everything...

--
Malygris

[A.G.McDowell]

On 04/07/2014 19:36, A.G.McDowell wrote:
> On 04/07/2014 17:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article<lp6egp$fa2$1...@dont-email.me>, Brenda...@yahoo.com says...

>>>
>>> On 7/3/2014 11:42 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>>>> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort

>>>> of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient,
>>>> powerful empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever
>>>> has without help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our
>>>> obsession with limits driving much of our achievement.
>>>>
>>>> Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a
>>>> review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven
>>>> had used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out
>>>> that America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American.
>>>> From what non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are
>>>> often represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.

>>>>
>>>> Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a
>>>> better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper
>>>> its authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm
>>>> fairly naive in that area; the only print example I can think of
>>>> offhand is _Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at
>>>> Socialism, but I may just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese
>>>> anime seems to have no problem with human exceptionalism, that's
>>>> certain,
>> but did they get that from us or is it home-grown?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> Mark L. Fergerson
>>>
>>>
>>> I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
>>> by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
>>> standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.
>>
>> Remember, Ian Fleming had the same.
>>
>> Both were used to a time when Britain had a real empire with the wealth
>> to do such things.
> There is a UK space program - it's just not very big or very flashy, and
> most of it is done via ESA these days. The UK decided not to build their
> own launcher after
>
(Trimmed)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28200846 Announces the
launch of TechDemoSat-1 and UKube-1. Since TechDemoSat-1 was partially
funded by the South East England Development Agency, I declare that we
have gone past the point of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_on_the_Moon and smallsats are now
reaching the point of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico :-)

Another unexpected space power is described in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian%27s_Ride, although I don't know if
that counts, since it turns out they had help.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:42:31 PM UTC-6, nu...@bid.nes wrote:

> Is this peculiar to American SF?

The United States does have a certain optimism due to its pioneer heritage. And John W. Campbell as an editor biased the field towards upbeat stories - since he also sought talented authors, this led to upbeat and pro-human serious SF (this sort of thing would be natural in pulp SF, as genre fiction is naturally melodramatic).

In other countries - say the United Kingdom - given that the most natural way for a novel to be 'serious', to be high literature rather than melodrama, is for it to be a tragedy, the dystopic tendency in serious SF had free rein. In the U.S., there was Ray Bradbury, who wrote for mass-circulation magazines and thus was outside of Campbell's influence, and there was the post-Campbell "New Wave".

When science fiction is good, it can be very, very good. But at present, it seems to have lost its way. The popular genre stuff, even if it's unworthy of being taken seriously, is still the soil in which the better stuff grows. Today, instead of genre fiction about space exploration, genre SF seems to be dominated by mil-SF.

If Edgar Rice Burroughs were starting his literary career today, he would be following in the footsteps of J. R. R. Tolkien instead of the footsteps of H. Rider Haggard. I'm not sure I even want to imagine what E. E. "Doc" Smith might be writing under the same circumstance. (Maybe Norman Spinrad or Harry Turtledove might be imaginative enough to come up with something...)

The current _Zeitgeist_, of course, is shaped by the current economic malaise, solidified by the oil shock of 1973, and also by 9/11. The Depression, of course, created an appetite for escapist entertainment, but today's dreams are of a different shape than the dreams of that time.

John Savard

[David DeLaney]

On 2014-07-08, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 7 July 2014 22:19:44 UTC+1, William December Starr wrote:
>> Dirk van den Boom <spam...@sf-boom.de> said:
>> > Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film
>> > industry has not been much better, with the notable exception
>> > of "our Star Trek", the short-lived but highly acclaimed
>> > TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).
>>
>> Wasn't that the talking rat in a Disney film a few years ago?
>>
>> -- wds (no, not "Charlotte's Web")
>
> _Ratatouille_. It's vegetable stew.

So it's a cookbook? A COOKBOOK?

Dave, will blend and fold for food
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2014-07-08 16:16:08 -0400, David DeLaney said:

> On 2014-07-08, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, 7 July 2014 22:19:44 UTC+1, William December Starr wrote:
>>> Dirk van den Boom <spam...@sf-boom.de> said:
>>>> Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film
>>>> industry has not been much better, with the notable exception
>>>> of "our Star Trek", the short-lived but highly acclaimed
>>>> TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).
>>>
>>> Wasn't that the talking rat in a Disney film a few years ago?
>>>
>>> -- wds (no, not "Charlotte's Web")
>>
>> _Ratatouille_. It's vegetable stew.
>
> So it's a cookbook? A COOKBOOK?

If there's anyone here who hasn't seen "Ratatouille" because it's a
Disney kids' movie, you might want to check it out despite its origins.
It's got a science-fictional tone in places, and besides, it's just a
really enjoyable film.



--
I'm serializing a new Ethshar novel!
The twenty-second chapter is online at:
http://www.ethshar.com/ishtascompanion22.html

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <lphl05$qq4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On 2014-07-08 16:16:08 -0400, David DeLaney said:
>
>> On 2014-07-08, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, 7 July 2014 22:19:44 UTC+1, William December Starr wrote:
>>>> Dirk van den Boom <spam...@sf-boom.de> said:
>>>>> Having said that, the SF-record of the West German film
>>>>> industry has not been much better, with the notable exception
>>>>> of "our Star Trek", the short-lived but highly acclaimed
>>>>> TV-series "Space Patrol" (Raumpatrouille).
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't that the talking rat in a Disney film a few years ago?
>>>>
>>>> -- wds (no, not "Charlotte's Web")
>>>
>>> _Ratatouille_. It's vegetable stew.
>>
>> So it's a cookbook? A COOKBOOK?
>
>If there's anyone here who hasn't seen "Ratatouille" because it's a
>Disney kids' movie, you might want to check it out despite its origins.
> It's got a science-fictional tone in places, and besides, it's just a
>really enjoyable film.
>

You could say that about pretty much anything from Pixar, except maybe
Cars II.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Larry Headlund]

On Friday, July 4, 2014 10:52:26 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <lp6egp$fa2$1...@dont-email.me>,
>

> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 7/3/2014 11:42 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>
> >> More than once it's been remarked that humans are cast as one sort
>
> >of exception or another in SF. Campbell had us conquer ancient, powerful
>
> >empires, Brin had us reach heights no other species ever has without
>
> >help, and of course Niven had aliens remarking on our obsession with
>
> >limits driving much of our achievement.
>
> >>
>
> >> Is this peculiar to American SF? I ask because I had just read a
>
> >review of the original Robocop that pointed out how Paul Verhoeven had
>
> >used the trope of American exceptionalism to try to point out that
>
> >America's socioeconomic paradoxes aren't uniquely American. From what
>
> >non-American-originated SF I'm familiar with, humans are often
>
> >represented as quite unusual if not exceptional.
>
> >>
>
> >> Anyone more familiar with Sf from other countries than I am have a
>
> >better rede on the idea? Does the mindset of a given country temper its
>
> >authors' attitudes about how humans will compare with ETs? I'm fairly
>
> >naive in that area; the only print example I can think of offhand is
>
> >_Solaris_, which sorta seems like a sneaky slap at Socialism, but I may
>
> >just be prejudiced as an American. Japanese anime seems to have no
>
> >problem with human exceptionalism, that's certain, but did they get that
>
> >from us or is it home-grown?
>
> >
>

> >I do remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's short fiction, and being struck
>
> >by how there was a British space program. Really? From my American
>
> >standpoint this was clearly a case of British exceptionalism.
>
>
>

> More a failure to understand how close to bankruptcy the Second World
>
> War took the UK. They didn't kill off thousands of people burning dodgy
>
> coal for fun. Well, the Tories might have but that wasn't the main reason.
>
>
>
> The UK did start putting stuff in orbit on their own launchers by 1971,
>
> whereas certain nations seem happy to use other countries' launchers.
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
>
> http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
>
> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

I would add that Clarke, like many others, did not predict how expensive space flight would be. As I recall one of his first moon voyage stories had it as a co-operative (as in each country had its own space ship) venture of the US,UK,SU and Australia. Like most SF writers of the period he projected it as a continuation of aviation.

What was the earliest SF story that had the first voyage to the moon as a major government project?

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 3:07:40 PM UTC-6, Larry Headlund wrote:

> What was the earliest SF story that had the first voyage to the moon as a major
> government project?

One possibility would be "Things to Come" by H. G. Wells.

John Savard

[Robert Bannister]

On 9/07/2014 5:07 am, Larry Headlund wrote:

> I would add that Clarke, like many others, did not predict how
> expensive space flight would be. As I recall one of his first moon
> voyage stories had it as a co-operative (as in each country had its
> own space ship) venture of the US,UK,SU and Australia. Like most SF
> writers of the period he projected it as a continuation of aviation.

I think he would be surprised at the cost of a single fighter plane today.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Well, yeah, but I rank "Ratatouille" near the top of their list as
being suitable for adults. "The Incredibles" is the other contender
for the top spot in that category. Lots of good stuff, especially for
kids, but for adults I put those two first.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <lpihgd$sdu$1...@dont-email.me>,

I definitely put "The Incredibles" near the top of "best movies of
the last 20 years". I have probably seen it in the theater upwards of 50
times.

"Ratatouille" was fine, but nowhere near that level. I'd put it below
"Up" and "Wall-E".

[A.G.McDowell]

On 08/07/2014 20:29, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:42:31 PM UTC-6, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>
>> Is this peculiar to American SF?
>
> The United States does have a certain optimism due to its pioneer heritage. And John W. Campbell as an editor biased the field towards upbeat stories - since he also sought talented authors, this led to upbeat and pro-human serious SF (this sort of thing would be natural in pulp SF, as genre fiction is naturally melodramatic).
>
> In other countries - say the United Kingdom - given that the most natural way for a novel to be 'serious', to be high literature rather than melodrama, is for it to be a tragedy, the dystopic tendency in serious SF had free rein. In the U.S., there was Ray Bradbury, who wrote for mass-circulation magazines and thus was outside of Campbell's influence, and there was the post-Campbell "New Wave".
>
> When science fiction is good, it can be very, very good. But at present, it seems to have lost its way. The popular genre stuff, even if it's unworthy of being taken seriously, is still the soil in which the better stuff grows. Today, instead of genre fiction about space exploration, genre SF seems to be dominated by mil-SF.
>

(trimmed)
Mil-SF is a perfectly good arena for just plain good SF. For an example,
see the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. It is not incompatible with
exploration (Shards of Honour has a fair bit of exploration of what will
end up as Sergyar) or - to skip a thread - scientific research (Komarr -
see the reverse engineering/rediscovery of the infernal device by Dr
Riva). Lingering part-by-part descriptions of real or imaginary hand
weapons are recent and optional, not mandatory :-)

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Whoa, really? I'd rate "Up" third, but I was kind of disappointed with
"Wall-E" -- it's good, but I was hoping for "great," and didn't feel
I'd gotten it.

[David Johnston]

I was thinking that the last couple of Mil-Sf books I watched did a
fairly good job of depicting actually alien psychologies, precisely
because the author wanted the differences to be substantive enough that
it would be difficult to make peace.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 02:21:36 UTC+1, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 9/07/2014 5:07 am, Larry Headlund wrote:
> > I would add that Clarke, like many others, did not predict how
> > expensive space flight would be. As I recall one of his first moon
> > voyage stories had it as a co-operative (as in each country had its
> > own space ship) venture of the US,UK,SU and Australia. Like most SF
> > writers of the period he projected it as a continuation of aviation.
>
> I think he would be surprised at the cost of a single fighter plane today.

They weren't exactly cheap when he was in the Royal Air Force.
On the other hand, he lived to see the Stealth Bomber (oops?)
although I don't know if he actually did.

[J. Clarke]

In article <lpij6q$4d8$1...@dont-email.me>, andrew-...@o2.co.uk
says...

Doc Smith had a few lingering part by part descriptions too--one was
based on the limitations of relay technology and the circumvention of
same--he clearly had never encountered a mercury switch and of course a
solid state switch would at the time have been semantically equivalent
to magic.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <lpij80$4jq$1...@dont-email.me>,

Eh, there were some bumps, but the Pohl+Simak thing worked for me.
There was certainly nothing as offputting as the suspension-of-disbelief
breaking "drive the sleeping human by pulling his hair" bit.

[JRStern]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2014 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:42:31 PM UTC-6, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>
>> Is this peculiar to American SF?
>
>The United States does have a certain optimism due to its pioneer heritage. And John W. Campbell as an editor biased the field towards upbeat stories - since he also sought talented authors, this led to upbeat and pro-human serious SF (this sort of thing would be natural in pulp SF, as genre fiction is naturally melodramatic).
>
>In other countries - say the United Kingdom - given that the most natural way for a novel to be 'serious', to be high literature rather than melodrama, is for it to be a tragedy, the dystopic tendency in serious SF had free rein. In the U.S., there was Ray Bradbury, who wrote for mass-circulation magazines and thus was outside of Campbell's influence, and there was the post-Campbell "New Wave".
>
>When science fiction is good, it can be very, very good. But at present, it seems to have lost its way. The popular genre stuff, even if it's unworthy of being taken seriously, is still the soil in which the better stuff grows. Today, instead of genre fiction about space exploration, genre SF seems to be dominated by mil-SF.
>
>If Edgar Rice Burroughs were starting his literary career today, he would be following in the footsteps of J. R. R. Tolkien instead of the footsteps of H. Rider Haggard. I'm not sure I even want to imagine what E. E. "Doc" Smith might be writing under the same circumstance.

Probably television scripts for "Two And A Half Men".

J.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 4:58:04 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <lpij6q$4d8$1...@dont-email.me>, andrew-...@o2.co.uk
> says...

(I think I snipped this correctly)

> > Mil-SF is a perfectly good arena for just plain good SF. For an example,
> > see the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. It is not incompatible with
> > exploration (Shards of Honour has a fair bit of exploration of what will
> > end up as Sergyar) or - to skip a thread - scientific research (Komarr -
> > see the reverse engineering/rediscovery of the infernal device by Dr
> > Riva). Lingering part-by-part descriptions of real or imaginary hand
> > weapons are recent and optional, not mandatory :-)
>
> Doc Smith had a few lingering part by part descriptions too--one was
> based on the limitations of relay technology and the circumvention of
> same--he clearly had never encountered a mercury switch and of course a
> solid state switch would at the time have been semantically equivalent
> to magic.

Are you possibly thinking of George O. Smith's spark-proof high-current relay contact alloy? There's quite a lot of that in _Venus Equilateral_, right down to avoiding neat wiring because of R. F. coupling between plate and grid circuits in his Magic Vacuum Toob "rockets" and power transporters...

Some Mil-SF makes me almost believe I could field-strip if not qualify as marksman on the described weapons just from the detail.

V. E., Campbell's Planeteer stories, and some other Golden Age stuff also almost make me believe I could build the described gadgetry if I could just get my hands on certain bits of Unobtanium. (_Cities In Flight_ doesn't, quite, because despite equations governing spindizzy physics the hardware is never described. Pity.)

The "some others" won't come to mind just now. I wish our Mr. Nicoll would get lucky and find a publisher for his tech-oriented SF anthology.

I'd buy it in hardback, and I haven't bought a hardback in literal decades.

It better have illustrations. Diagrams, too.

<drool/>


Mark L. Fergerson

[Walter Bushell]

In article <lp6f3a$9nr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

>
> The UK did start putting stuff in orbit on their own launchers by 1971,
> whereas certain nations seem happy to use other countries' launchers.
>

Ouch that smarts!

--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 12:58:04 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> Doc Smith had a few lingering part by part descriptions
> too--one was based on the limitations of relay technology
> and the circumvention of same--he clearly had never
> encountered a mercury switch and of course a solid state
> switch would at the time have been semantically equivalent
> to magic.

If this is in the Skylark series, as I think I vaguely
remember, then he was using quite high voltage and/or
current most of the time, there; powered by E = mc2
from day one - the only implied positive acknowledgement
of Einstein in the series, I think. The technology
is soon in use for private space flight and I think it's
sort of "Oh - look - you /can/ go faster than light
if you push hard enough, after all."

[William December Starr]

In article <s3oqr95vqibequl9s...@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> said:

> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> If Edgar Rice Burroughs were starting his literary career
>> today, he would be following in the footsteps of
>> J. R. R. Tolkien instead of the footsteps of H. Rider
>> Haggard. I'm not sure I even want to imagine what E. E. "Doc"
>> Smith might be writing under the same circumstance.
>
> Probably television scripts for "Two And A Half Men".

I thought that was what Shakespeare would be doing.

(Actually, I believe the classic snark is that he'd be writing
"Dallas"-like nighttime soap operas. Or at least it was back
when such shows were a much stronger television and social genre
than they are today. Today he'd probably be script-doctoring
Transformers movies.)

-- wds

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <lpmb91$443$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

I don't believe there's any evidence that happens..

[William December Starr]

In article <c27poh...@mid.individual.net>,

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:

> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought that was what Shakespeare would be doing.
>>
>> (Actually, I believe the classic snark is that he'd be writing
>> "Dallas"-like nighttime soap operas. Or at least it was back
>> when such shows were a much stronger television and social genre
>> than they are today. Today he'd probably be script-doctoring
>> Transformers movies.)
>
> I don't believe there's any evidence that happens..

Point taken. Then again, Joss Whedon once said:

"And as a script doctor I've been called in more than a few times,
and the issue is always the same: 'We want you to make the third
act more exciting and cheaper.' And my response inevitably is,
'The problem with the third act is the first two acts.' This
response is never listened to."

-- wds

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 9:31:41 AM UTC-6, William December Starr wrote:

> Point taken. Then again, Joss Whedon once said:

> "And as a script doctor I've been called in more than a few times,
> and the issue is always the same: 'We want you to make the third
> act more exciting and cheaper.' And my response inevitably is,
> 'The problem with the third act is the first two acts.' This
> response is never listened to."

"They're always putting in a nickel, and they want a dollar song." - Melanie Safka.

They want computer security, but with no overhead. Everybody wants results without effort. (Even me; I want the United States to rule the entire Islamic world with an iron fist without any American blood shed, as some of my posts here have indicated.)

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

In article <93d4184a-3cce-414d...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

Be careful what you wish for. If the US ever decides to go the course
of empery, Canada is an obvious acquisition.

[James Silverton]

The US picked up some bits of empire at the turn of the nineteenth
century: the Philippines and Cuba for example, but the attempt to take
Canada in the War of 1812 was a failure.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[David Johnston]

Canada is no longer part of the most powerful empire in the world.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 12:02:00 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Be careful what you wish for. If the US ever decides to go the course
> of empery, Canada is an obvious acquisition.

I do not wish for the U.S. to commit aggression; I wish it to use its strength to defeat the evil ones who are committing aggression - even as we speak, they are launching missiles against our democratic and peaceful ally Israel.

John Savard

[James Silverton]

There is a bit of a misapprehension about power here. In 1812, the
British Navy was the most powerful but the Empire was quite small in
population. The British population was about half of that of the French
and perhaps three times that of the US. The British were a little busy
fighting the French and their Canadian armed forces were quite small. It
was only after the peace treaty had been signed that Andrew Jackson's
adventures took place, even if neither side at New Orleans knew it.

[Quadibloc]

And now I have learned that even the Palestinian people are like this:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/new-palestinian-poll-shows-hardline-views-but-some-pragmatism-too

They reject a two-state solution; they do want all of Palestine back, from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea.

However, they reject violence against Israel as a means to achieving that end.

So, apparently, they expect the Israelis to drive *themselves* into the sea!

John Savard

[Cryptoengineer]

James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in
news:lpmlic$6l4$1...@dont-email.me:

We still have Puerto Rico, Guam, and a few other bits and bobs.

Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" was written following the seizure
of the Philippines, and is addressed to the people of the US. It's
basic message was 'OK, now you've joined the grown-up nations - the
empire builders. Here's what to expect. It isn't all fun and games."

"To seek another's profit, And work another's gain."

pt

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:09:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
<news:598d7e91-1d08-4e50...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 12:02:00 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

>> Be careful what you wish for. If the US ever decides to
>> go the course of empery, Canada is an obvious
>> acquisition.

> I do not wish for the U.S. to commit aggression;

On the contrary, that’s exactly what you want.

> I wish it to use its strength to defeat the evil ones who
> are committing aggression - even as we speak, they are
> launching missiles against our democratic and peaceful
> ally Israel.

Which has been expanding settlements and sliding towards
apartheid for quite a while now. At this point neither side
has anything remotely resembling clean hands.

[David Johnston]

The Napoleonic empire was for a while more powerful on land, but it had
fallen by the end of the war of 1812.

[David Johnston]

"I do not wish for the U.S. to commit aggression. I just want it to
conquer the world."

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:40:10 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:

> "I do not wish for the U.S. to commit aggression. I just want it to
> conquer the world."

I take it you are accusing me of cognitive atonality.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:26:31 PM UTC-6, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> At this point neither side
> has anything remotely resembling clean hands.

That is... not unexpected... when a conflict drags on as long as this one has.

Unfortunately, though, I cannot see a way to end this conflict and produce peace except through total victory on the part of Israel.

Well, actually, there is one other way. However, while having all the terrorists dead, and the Islamic world somehow demilitarized is an acceptable option, exterminating the Jews of Israel - or even demilitarizing them, thus rendering them subject to abuse under Islamic law (i.e., the Pact of 'Umar) is not. Had the other side a different victory condition, it could perhaps have been considered.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

In article <lpmlic$6l4$1...@dont-email.me>, not.jim....@verizon.net
says...

Yeah, yeah, and you burned the white house. Rah rah.

Think it would go that way in 2014?

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 8:30:51 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Think it would go that way in 2014?

No. But it is not, at present, a concern that the United States might depart from the path of righteousness.

Were that ever a concern, unless Russia or China had previously embraced democracy in a reliable fashion, it would be time to abandon the non-proliferation treaty as an obsolete relic.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:26:31 PM UTC-6, Brian M. Scott wrote:

> Which has been expanding settlements and sliding towards
> apartheid for quite a while now.

If force is required to restrain Israel from expanding settlements, that force may only be legitimately applied by authorized parties, such as the United States of America.

We would have a peaceful world if Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, the various terrorist organizations, and so on were all disarmed - with the use of military force an absolute monopoly of the world's recognized and stable democracies - the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Norway, the Netherlands, Greece, Canada, Australia, Taiwan, South Korea, Poland, the Czech Republic, Botswana, and so on.

John Savard

[Anthony Nance]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>When looking at popular culture SF, particularly for children, it doesn't surprise me that French comic books or TV shows feature astronauts being launched into space by a French space program, with the same applying to Germany, Japan, Britain, or even such unlikely places as Sweden or Canada. This is simply so the audience can better relate to and identify with the protagonists and get caught up in the excitement of Exploring! Space!.
>
> Or Grand Fenwick.

Hey! I just read that last week - good stuff.
- Tony, now seeking The Other Mouses I've Missed

[J. Clarke]

In article <1f9f4234-8a02-4b69...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

Your child-like faith in the righteousness of "democracies" is quite
touching.

[James Silverton]

There might seem to be a touch of irony in the list, which includes
Greece and Botswana! Greece is still home to old fashioned patriotism;
witness their objections to the new country calling itself Macedonia.
Also remember Acton: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".

[Robert Carnegie]

Troll! As I said. Right now he is gleefully waiting
for somebody to ask what precisely "authorized" mea -
oh, @&%$*#. ;-)

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 11, 2014 7:21:40 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Your child-like faith in the righteousness of "democracies" is quite
> touching.

I am aware that in the real world, certain types of statements can only be... approximations. But it is in the democracies that there is hope for progress, while the dictatorships, at least in the short run, bring only death and destruction.

Eventually, they too might progress - although the advance of technology makes longer nightmares more possible - because the democracies, after all, emerged originally from the night of tyranny. But Man's strength, thanks to the light of scientific knowledge, has made the world too fragile a place for there to be room for tyrants.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in
news:MPG.2e29aeece...@news.newsguy.com:

In a "stop touching yourself" sort of way.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 11, 2014 6:03:19 AM UTC-6, Anthony Nance wrote:

> - Tony, now seeking The Other Mouses I've Missed

I knew of 'The Mouse that Roared' and 'The Mouse on the Moon', but I had either forgotten about or never heard of 'The Mouse on Wall Street' (that one does ring a bell) and 'The Mouse that Saved the West'.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

On 7/11/2014 4:25 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:26:31 PM UTC-6, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>> Which has been expanding settlements and sliding towards apartheid
>> for quite a while now.
>
> If force is required to restrain Israel from expanding settlements,
> that force may only be legitimately applied by authorized parties,
> such as the United States of America.
>
> We would have a peaceful world if Russia, China, North Korea, Iran,
> the various terrorist organizations, and so on were all disarmed -

"We would have a peaceful world if only those fools would start World
War III and then after they won, dominated everything with an iron fist!"

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote in
news:lppbou$qu1$4...@dont-email.me:

Remember, Quaddies defines "disamred" as "murdered because their skin
is the wrong color" because, obviously, all white people *must* agree
with him.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 11, 2014 10:40:09 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Troll! As I said. Right now he is gleefully waiting
> for somebody to ask what precisely "authorized" mea -
> oh, @&%$*#. ;-)

Why, those are the countries that follow My Amendments:

I. Thou shalt make no law which is to exalt one faith above another as the faith of your land...

Yes, "authorized" implies an authority, and is a bit of a stretch. Basically, what is being presupposed is a complete replacement of the United Nations with a sort of super-NATO - where the world's industrialized democracies, major and minor, recognizing themselves as the countries which are ruled *by their peoples*, form a world body from which dictatorships of all stripes are specifically excluded which, like today's United Nations, has pretensions of representing the world as a whole.

Still an imperfect approximation, but better than what we have now.

No bashing of Israel at the human rights meetings, that would be one positive change.

John Savard