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"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
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Lynn McGuire
Jul 1, 2016, 2:01:40 PM7/1/16
to
"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
Lynn
http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
Lynn
David Johnston
Jul 1, 2016, 2:14:58 PM7/1/16
to
crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 1, 2016, 3:00:03 PM7/1/16
to
the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
(including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie, and that Tesla's
rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on the
wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
Tesla.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
Jul 1, 2016, 3:17:24 PM7/1/16
to
your mix is a number of idiots, no?
Kevin R
Sean Eric Fagan
Jul 1, 2016, 3:30:04 PM7/1/16
to
In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>,
Unproven, since you can't watch video on the Tesla's screen. You *can* listen
to audio through it. And it's also possible to have a smaller device (such as
a phone or tablet) playing audio through the car.
(N.B. My wife has a Model S, so I've got a fair bit of experiene driving one.)
>Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>Tesla.
Tesla does not have so many customers that the loss of any can be unnoticed.
Especially one who causes an NTSB investigation, which will take up a
significant amount of resources.
It's important to note that Tesla's "auto pilot" feature does not, so far,
really have anything terribly new: other manufacturers refer to the cruise
control part as "active cruise control," and lane-departure warnings have been
available as options on mid-to-high end cars for a decade or so... and some of
them have, in fact, been offering options for steering control related to
that. (I think it may be the first with the perpendicular self-parking
feature.)
The main differences between Tesla and the other guuys are:
1) Tesla rolled it out to a huge portion of their customer base, as a software
update. And subsequent software updates have changed the behaviour.
2) Tesla mostly relies on cameras for the auto-pilot, while the competitors
who've been offering it usually use non-visual sensors (lidar or even ir).
[Yes, I know Tesla has non-visual sensors as well, but it's using normal
cameras for a lot of it.]
The auto-pilot feature is very convenient, but it's got a lot of limitations,
and it has some ... really not great failure modes. (One time, for example,
it decided to try to merge us into the right shoulder of a freeway, because it
got confused by an offramp.)
Anyway. I'm looking forward to reading the NTSB report, if/when it is
available.
Unproven, since you can't watch video on the Tesla's screen. You *can* listen
to audio through it. And it's also possible to have a smaller device (such as
a phone or tablet) playing audio through the car.
(N.B. My wife has a Model S, so I've got a fair bit of experiene driving one.)
>Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>Tesla.
Especially one who causes an NTSB investigation, which will take up a
significant amount of resources.
It's important to note that Tesla's "auto pilot" feature does not, so far,
really have anything terribly new: other manufacturers refer to the cruise
control part as "active cruise control," and lane-departure warnings have been
available as options on mid-to-high end cars for a decade or so... and some of
them have, in fact, been offering options for steering control related to
that. (I think it may be the first with the perpendicular self-parking
feature.)
The main differences between Tesla and the other guuys are:
1) Tesla rolled it out to a huge portion of their customer base, as a software
update. And subsequent software updates have changed the behaviour.
2) Tesla mostly relies on cameras for the auto-pilot, while the competitors
who've been offering it usually use non-visual sensors (lidar or even ir).
[Yes, I know Tesla has non-visual sensors as well, but it's using normal
cameras for a lot of it.]
The auto-pilot feature is very convenient, but it's got a lot of limitations,
and it has some ... really not great failure modes. (One time, for example,
it decided to try to merge us into the right shoulder of a freeway, because it
got confused by an offramp.)
Anyway. I'm looking forward to reading the NTSB report, if/when it is
available.
Peter Trei
Jul 1, 2016, 4:05:04 PM7/1/16
to
and (2) the first guess is that the system failed to distinguish a white
truck from empty sky, and changed lanes into the truck.
The interesting issue will be whether Tesla gets sued, and is so, what
precedents get set.
If it can be proved that the driver was grossly negligent, Tesla may get off.
pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 6:10:21 PM7/1/16
to
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me:
It is very unclear what happened, beyond the driver clearly didn't
know the difference between "driver assist" (which the Tesla has) and
"self driving" (which the Tesla doesn't have), and ignored the
instructions to keep his hands on the wheel and eyes on the road.
There were multiple failures, and the worst one was the deceased.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me:
know the difference between "driver assist" (which the Tesla has) and
"self driving" (which the Tesla doesn't have), and ignored the
instructions to keep his hands on the wheel and eyes on the road.
There were multiple failures, and the worst one was the deceased.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 6:12:12 PM7/1/16
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:o9nG3...@kithrup.com:
> In article <nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>>
>>http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car
>>-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>>Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>
> Hal's busy reading me another article about it, mentioning that
> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie,
Tesla says that (as reported in the news - the police report has no
mention of it) isn't possible.
> and that Tesla's
> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on
> the wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
And you apparently have to acknowledge that every time you turn on
the driver assist stuff.
might be some PR loss.
But the rest of society isn't out much.
news:o9nG3...@kithrup.com:
> In article <nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>>
>>http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car
>>-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>>Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>
> Hal's busy reading me another article about it, mentioning that
> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie,
mention of it) isn't possible.
> and that Tesla's
> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on
> the wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
the driver assist stuff.
>
> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
> Tesla.
>
He was apparently quite an enthusiastic fan, to the point where there
> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
> Tesla.
>
might be some PR loss.
But the rest of society isn't out much.
J. Clarke
Jul 1, 2016, 6:52:44 PM7/1/16
to
In article <nl6bv0$k77$1...@dont-email.me>, Davidjo...@yahoo.com
says...
However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
hands off the wheel.
says...
autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
hands off the wheel.
J. Clarke
Jul 1, 2016, 6:53:55 PM7/1/16
to
In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie. No car sold
in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
Lynn McGuire
Jul 1, 2016, 7:01:22 PM7/1/16
to
Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 1, 2016, 7:15:03 PM7/1/16
to
In article <MPG.31e0be815...@news.eternal-september.org>,
On the tablet lying on the seat beside him? (If there is one.
If not, maybe on the tablet resting against the dashboard?)
If not, maybe on the tablet resting against the dashboard?)
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 1, 2016, 7:15:03 PM7/1/16
to
In article <0cb70026-715a-4718...@googlegroups.com>,
Well, hm. Somebody just said upthread that the car is supposed
to pull over to the curb if the driver takes his hands off the
wheel. Were the driver's hands on the wheel while he was
watching the Harry Potter movie? Perhaps the car had something
resembling a black box that will tell.
Old, old, old engineer's joke:
"But the automated stop didn't stop!"
"Well, why weren't you watching the automated stop, huh?"
to pull over to the curb if the driver takes his hands off the
wheel. Were the driver's hands on the wheel while he was
watching the Harry Potter movie? Perhaps the car had something
resembling a black box that will tell.
Old, old, old engineer's joke:
"But the automated stop didn't stop!"
"Well, why weren't you watching the automated stop, huh?"
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 7:25:08 PM7/1/16
to
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nl6so0$fm5$1...@dont-email.me:
in the US.
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 1, 2016, 8:01:40 PM7/1/16
to
On 7/1/2016 3:10 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> news:nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-drivin
>> g-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>>
> It is very unclear what happened, beyond the driver clearly didn't
> know the difference between "driver assist" (which the Tesla has) and
> "self driving" (which the Tesla doesn't have), and ignored the
> instructions to keep his hands on the wheel and eyes on the road.
> There were multiple failures, and the worst one was the deceased.
>
So the failure of the "autopilot" was due to ... human error.
> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> news:nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-drivin
>> g-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>>
> It is very unclear what happened, beyond the driver clearly didn't
> know the difference between "driver assist" (which the Tesla has) and
> "self driving" (which the Tesla doesn't have), and ignored the
> instructions to keep his hands on the wheel and eyes on the road.
> There were multiple failures, and the worst one was the deceased.
>
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey for Summer 2016
J. Clarke
Jul 1, 2016, 8:38:23 PM7/1/16
to
In article <nl7092$o8v$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net says...
For some reason I suspect that vehicle automation has little role in
this and the desire to make big bucks off the lawsuit has a large role.
How does anybody know that he was watching a movie?
this and the desire to make big bucks off the lawsuit has a large role.
How does anybody know that he was watching a movie?
Don Bruder
Jul 1, 2016, 8:42:24 PM7/1/16
to
to buy a portable DVD player/screen gadget that would nicely sit on the
passenger seat. The one I recall seeing was priced at about 60 bucks...
--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
Lynn McGuire
Jul 1, 2016, 8:58:09 PM7/1/16
to
Lynn
Don Kuenz
Jul 1, 2016, 10:23:00 PM7/1/16
to
_the dream master_. In a conformist world with minimal individuality,
young people rebelled by disconnecting the broadcast unit in auto-driven
autos known as a "spinners."
Highway Control dispatched "winged seraphs" (?predator drones?) to find
and annihilate any spinner that suddenly vanished. Because all of the
other spinners did not sense the location of a rebel spinner. More often
than not, the winged seraphs did not find their prey.
Later on, blindspins evolved into a much safer form of individual
expression. In this evolved form of blindspin a random coordinate was
entered instead of the name of a place. And the spinner took people to
parts unknown. Sometimes blindspinners ordered a "drink while you drive"
basket of booze for the journey. :0)
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Solomon Grundy
Walked on Monday
Rode on Tuesday
Motored on Wednesday
Planed on Thursday
Rocketed Friday
Spaceship Saturday
Time Machine Sunday
Where is the end for
Solomon Grundy?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 10:37:51 PM7/1/16
to
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nl73iv$ce$1...@dont-email.me:
driving) and everything to do with people who are too stupid to
live.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 10:38:30 PM7/1/16
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in
news:nl7092$o8v$1...@dont-email.me:
Since it was not, in fact, a "self driving car," it seems likely that
the actual driver was, in fact, at fault, yes.
news:nl7092$o8v$1...@dont-email.me:
the actual driver was, in fact, at fault, yes.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 1, 2016, 10:39:03 PM7/1/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.31e0d6ff8...@news.eternal-september.org:
> How does anybody know that he was watching a
> movie?
>
An excellent question. There's no mention of it in the police report.
news:MPG.31e0d6ff8...@news.eternal-september.org:
> How does anybody know that he was watching a
> movie?
>
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 1, 2016, 11:15:03 PM7/1/16
to
him from the road at just the wrong moment.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 1, 2016, 11:30:03 PM7/1/16
to
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/07/01/tesla_autopilot_crash_victim_joshua_brown_was_watching_a_movie_when_he_died.html
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 1, 2016, 11:50:06 PM7/1/16
to
the deceased's vehicle.
Cryptoengineer
Jul 1, 2016, 11:55:44 PM7/1/16
to
showing a Harry Potter movie, was a bit of a clue.
pt
J. Clarke
Jul 2, 2016, 3:33:49 AM7/2/16
to
In article <o9o3M...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
So the guy is driving distracted and got killed. Darwin award time.
a425couple
Jul 2, 2016, 12:01:45 PM7/2/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in message ...
> Davidjo...@yahoo.com says...
with what we see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsmhKQEn2c
Navy SEAL Dies Behind The Wheel When Self-Driving Tesla Gets Into Accident
this one seems sort'a confusing to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNMvHbL3jU
Witnesses to aftermath of deadly Tesla say autopilot continued to drive
car for hundreds of yards
> Davidjo...@yahoo.com says...
>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> > "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> > http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>> >
>> > Am I the only one ----
>> > "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> > http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>> >
>> Probably. The crash didn't happen because people were predicting the
>> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
>> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
>
> However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
> autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
> hands off the wheel.
I respect your input, but that does not appear consistent
>> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
>> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
>
> However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
> autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
> hands off the wheel.
with what we see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsmhKQEn2c
Navy SEAL Dies Behind The Wheel When Self-Driving Tesla Gets Into Accident
this one seems sort'a confusing to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNMvHbL3jU
Witnesses to aftermath of deadly Tesla say autopilot continued to drive
car for hundreds of yards
J. Clarke
Jul 2, 2016, 12:30:28 PM7/2/16
to
In article <nl8og...@news4.newsguy.com>, a425c...@hotmail.com
says...
while. What was shown there though I could do in a '62 Falcon in the
early '70s.
> this one seems sort'a confusing to me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNMvHbL3jU
> Witnesses to aftermath of deadly Tesla say autopilot continued to drive
> car for hundreds of yards
After it ran under the truck all bets are off. Might have been going on
inertia with a completely dead control system. An ordinary car isn't
going to stop itself under that circumstance.
There's a lot of speculation in this story.
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in message ...
> > Davidjo...@yahoo.com says...
> >> Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> > "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
> >> > http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
> >> >
> >> > Am I the only one ----
> >> Probably. The crash didn't happen because people were predicting the
> >> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
> >> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
> >
> > However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
> > autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
> > hands off the wheel.
>
> I respect your input, but that does not appear consistent
> with what we see here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsmhKQEn2c
> Navy SEAL Dies Behind The Wheel When Self-Driving Tesla Gets Into Accident
Apparently it takes it a while to decide to act. Possibly too long a
> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in message ...
> > Davidjo...@yahoo.com says...
> >> Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> > "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
> >> > http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
> >> >
> >> > Am I the only one ----
> >> Probably. The crash didn't happen because people were predicting the
> >> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
> >> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
> >
> > However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
> > autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
> > hands off the wheel.
>
> I respect your input, but that does not appear consistent
> with what we see here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsmhKQEn2c
> Navy SEAL Dies Behind The Wheel When Self-Driving Tesla Gets Into Accident
while. What was shown there though I could do in a '62 Falcon in the
early '70s.
> this one seems sort'a confusing to me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNMvHbL3jU
> Witnesses to aftermath of deadly Tesla say autopilot continued to drive
> car for hundreds of yards
inertia with a completely dead control system. An ordinary car isn't
going to stop itself under that circumstance.
There's a lot of speculation in this story.
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 2, 2016, 12:33:34 PM7/2/16
to
their hands from the wheel. The driver has to leave their hands off the
steering wheel for a period before the automatic systems start to slow
the vehicle and look for a place to pull over.
There's also the little fact that the vehicle's electronics were most
likely damaged by having the top portion of the vehicle torn off and it
just coasted until it ran into the telephone pole. Something one would
expect still functioning automatic systems to avoid.
J. Clarke
Jul 2, 2016, 12:42:46 PM7/2/16
to
In article <nl8qcs$2sl$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net says...
Or perhaps there was a malfunction that led to both the truck collison
and the pole collision. In any case I understand that the camera is on
top so it would be gone (one hopes that when blinded the autopilot would
stop forthwith) but there's supposed to also be a radar.
and the pole collision. In any case I understand that the camera is on
top so it would be gone (one hopes that when blinded the autopilot would
stop forthwith) but there's supposed to also be a radar.
Greg Goss
Jul 2, 2016, 1:57:09 PM7/2/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <nl6bv0$k77$1...@dont-email.me>, Davidjo...@yahoo.com
>In article <nl6bv0$k77$1...@dont-email.me>, Davidjo...@yahoo.com
>> Probably. The crash didn't happen because people were predicting the
>> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
>> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
>
>However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
>autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
>hands off the wheel.
There was a software upgrade a while back that was supposed to now
>> crash. People were predicting the crash because they (correctly)
>> believed that the technology is still inferior to an alert driver.
>
>However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
>autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take your
>hands off the wheel.
allow autonomous driving on freeways. Perhaps your impression was
from before that upgrade.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
Jul 2, 2016, 2:00:34 PM7/2/16
to
>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie. No
>>> car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the
>>> driver.
>>
>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>
>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal anywhere
>in the US.
I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting on the
>>> car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the
>>> driver.
>>
>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>
>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal anywhere
>in the US.
other seat.
Greg Goss
Jul 2, 2016, 2:03:07 PM7/2/16
to
Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>It's been a couple of years since I looked, but it used to be possible
>to buy a portable DVD player/screen gadget that would nicely sit on the
>passenger seat. The one I recall seeing was priced at about 60 bucks...
When my first wife was in the hospital for an extended stay, I bought
>It's been a couple of years since I looked, but it used to be possible
>to buy a portable DVD player/screen gadget that would nicely sit on the
>passenger seat. The one I recall seeing was priced at about 60 bucks...
her a portable DVD player with a seven inch screen that weighed a
pound or so. That was a dozen years ago. At that time it was a
hundred bucks with a four hour battery. Since then the battery has
died, but the unit still works if you feed it 6VDC.
Greg Goss
Jul 2, 2016, 2:05:40 PM7/2/16
to
Don Kuenz <gar...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>
>This sort of carnage happened during the first "blindspins" in Zelazny's
>_the dream master_. In a conformist world with minimal individuality,
>young people rebelled by disconnecting the broadcast unit in auto-driven
>autos known as a "spinners."
In one of the Honor books, a young drunk, who had previously
>
>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>
>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>
>This sort of carnage happened during the first "blindspins" in Zelazny's
>_the dream master_. In a conformist world with minimal individuality,
>young people rebelled by disconnecting the broadcast unit in auto-driven
>autos known as a "spinners."
disconnected the auto-drive in his aircar for the sheer adolescent joy
of driving, took out a major player at a critical point. The good
guys don't expect anyone to believe this.
Don Bruder
Jul 2, 2016, 3:00:17 PM7/2/16
to
In article <dtqdun...@mid.individual.net>,
Sounds like a pretty good match for the gizmo I was thinking of. I'm not
sure, but I think the one I saw had a bigger screen than you're
describing. Aside from that difference... <shrug> We're essentially
talking about the same thing.
sure, but I think the one I saw had a bigger screen than you're
describing. Aside from that difference... <shrug> We're essentially
talking about the same thing.
Cryptoengineer
Jul 2, 2016, 3:15:52 PM7/2/16
to
Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote in news:nl92vu$ple$2...@dont-email.me:
I really don't understand why there is even argument about this - showing
video on tablets and portable DVD players isn't new.
I currently have 4 episodes of 'Lexx' on my iPad Air, and while I haven't
tried, I expect that would fit nicely against the large center console
screen of a Tesla, or even sit on the the steering wheel.
This operates completely outside of the car's control. Doing this
would be stupid and illegal everywhere, afaik, but there are
stupid people out there.
pt
video on tablets and portable DVD players isn't new.
I currently have 4 episodes of 'Lexx' on my iPad Air, and while I haven't
tried, I expect that would fit nicely against the large center console
screen of a Tesla, or even sit on the the steering wheel.
This operates completely outside of the car's control. Doing this
would be stupid and illegal everywhere, afaik, but there are
stupid people out there.
pt
Cryptoengineer
Jul 2, 2016, 3:38:44 PM7/2/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.31e1b6268...@news.eternal-september.org:
> In article <nl8og...@news4.newsguy.com>, a425c...@hotmail.com
> says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in message ...
>> > Davidjo...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> > "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> >> > http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car
>> >> > -driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>> >> >
>> >> > Am I the only one ----
>> >> Probably. The crash didn't happen because people were predicting
>> >> the crash. People were predicting the crash because they
>> >> (correctly) believed that the technology is still inferior to an
>> >> alert driver.
>> >
>> > However it remains to be seen whether the car was actually running
>> > autonomously--the Tesla system pulls over and stops if you take
>> > your hands off the wheel.
>>
>> I respect your input, but that does not appear consistent
>> with what we see here:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsmhKQEn2c
>> Navy SEAL Dies Behind The Wheel When Self-Driving Tesla Gets Into
>> Accident
>
> Apparently it takes it a while to decide to act. Possibly too long a
> while. What was shown there though I could do in a '62 Falcon in the
> early '70s.
set up a holder for his (very large) smartphone near the 2 oclock
position of the wheel. Another clip shows him in a different car, with
a very large (17+ inch) screen set up in the passenger seat, angled to
be viewed by the driver.
However, it also questions the 'watching Harry Potter' part of the
story.
>> this one seems sort'a confusing to me:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNMvHbL3jU
>> Witnesses to aftermath of deadly Tesla say autopilot continued to
>> drive car for hundreds of yards
>
> After it ran under the truck all bets are off. Might have been going
> on inertia with a completely dead control system. An ordinary car
> isn't going to stop itself under that circumstance.
over 85 mph. The road is NOT an interstate - the accident happened at
an intersection.
> There's a lot of speculation in this story.
>
all be out - the accident happened in May.
pt
Jerry Brown
Jul 2, 2016, 3:52:32 PM7/2/16
to
On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 14:15:45 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote in news:nl92vu$ple$2...@dont-email.me:
>
>> In article <dtqdun...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >It's been a couple of years since I looked, but it used to be
>>> >possible to buy a portable DVD player/screen gadget that would
>>> >nicely sit on the passenger seat. The one I recall seeing was priced
>>> >at about 60 bucks...
>>>
>>> When my first wife was in the hospital for an extended stay, I bought
>>> her a portable DVD player with a seven inch screen that weighed a
>>> pound or so. That was a dozen years ago. At that time it was a
>>> hundred bucks with a four hour battery. Since then the battery has
>>> died, but the unit still works if you feed it 6VDC.
>>
>> Sounds like a pretty good match for the gizmo I was thinking of. I'm
>> not sure, but I think the one I saw had a bigger screen than you're
>> describing. Aside from that difference... <shrug> We're essentially
>> talking about the same thing.
>>
>
>I really don't understand why there is even argument about this - showing
>video on tablets and portable DVD players isn't new.
>
>I currently have 4 episodes of 'Lexx' on my iPad Air,
May His Shadow fall upon you.
<treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote in news:nl92vu$ple$2...@dont-email.me:
>
>> In article <dtqdun...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >It's been a couple of years since I looked, but it used to be
>>> >possible to buy a portable DVD player/screen gadget that would
>>> >nicely sit on the passenger seat. The one I recall seeing was priced
>>> >at about 60 bucks...
>>>
>>> When my first wife was in the hospital for an extended stay, I bought
>>> her a portable DVD player with a seven inch screen that weighed a
>>> pound or so. That was a dozen years ago. At that time it was a
>>> hundred bucks with a four hour battery. Since then the battery has
>>> died, but the unit still works if you feed it 6VDC.
>>
>> Sounds like a pretty good match for the gizmo I was thinking of. I'm
>> not sure, but I think the one I saw had a bigger screen than you're
>> describing. Aside from that difference... <shrug> We're essentially
>> talking about the same thing.
>>
>
>I really don't understand why there is even argument about this - showing
>video on tablets and portable DVD players isn't new.
>
>I currently have 4 episodes of 'Lexx' on my iPad Air,
>and while I haven't
>tried, I expect that would fit nicely against the large center console
>screen of a Tesla, or even sit on the the steering wheel.
>
>This operates completely outside of the car's control. Doing this
>would be stupid and illegal everywhere, afaik, but there are
>stupid people out there.
>
>pt
Jerry Brown
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 2, 2016, 7:34:05 PM7/2/16
to
investigates air crashes. As I recall they can take years to present a
report.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 2, 2016, 10:18:14 PM7/2/16
to
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
>
>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
>>>> the driver.
>>>
>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>>
>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
>>anywhere in the US.
>
> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> on the other seat.
Which is also illegel.
news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
>
>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
>>>> the driver.
>>>
>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>>
>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
>>anywhere in the US.
>
> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> on the other seat.
Cryptoengineer
Jul 2, 2016, 11:37:23 PM7/2/16
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
>>
>>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
>>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
>>>>> the driver.
>>>>
>>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>>>
>>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
>>>anywhere in the US.
>>
>> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
>> on the other seat.
>
> Which is also illegel.
Well, if its *illegal* it clearly couldn't have happened that way.
pt
news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
>>
>>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
>>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
>>>>> the driver.
>>>>
>>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
>>>>
>>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
>>>anywhere in the US.
>>
>> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
>> on the other seat.
>
> Which is also illegel.
pt
Don Bruder
Jul 3, 2016, 2:22:29 PM7/3/16
to
In article <XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131>,
Illegal? Ain't that a sick bird?
Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
it?
Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm...
Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
it?
Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm...
Peter Trei
Jul 3, 2016, 4:02:26 PM7/3/16
to
On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 2:22:29 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote:
> In article <XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131>,
> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> >
> > > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> > > news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> > >
> > >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> > >>
> > >>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
> > >>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
> > >>>>> the driver.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
> > >>>>
> > >>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
> > >>>anywhere in the US.
> > >>
> > >> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> > >> on the other seat.
> > >
> > > Which is also illegel.
> >
> > Well, if its *illegal* it clearly couldn't have happened that way.
> >
> > pt
>
> Illegal? Ain't that a sick bird?
I could try to pretend that I did that on purpose, but I won't. Usenet spelling critiques seem
> In article <XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131>,
> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> >
> > > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> > > news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> > >
> > >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> > >>
> > >>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
> > >>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
> > >>>>> the driver.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
> > >>>>
> > >>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
> > >>>anywhere in the US.
> > >>
> > >> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> > >> on the other seat.
> > >
> > > Which is also illegel.
> >
> > Well, if its *illegal* it clearly couldn't have happened that way.
> >
> > pt
>
> Illegal? Ain't that a sick bird?
to always have their own errors.
>
> Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
> it?
>
> Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm.
Should I have tagged it as such?
> Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
> it?
>
> Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm.
pt
Don Bruder
Jul 3, 2016, 5:15:15 PM7/3/16
to
In article <cd7e00fa-01d9-4cfb...@googlegroups.com>,
only intended play was the "illegal = sick bird" gag.
Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 2:22:29 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote:
> > In article <XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131>,
> > Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> > >
> > > > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> > > > news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> > > >
> > > >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
> > > >>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
> > > >>>>> the driver.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
> > > >>>anywhere in the US.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> > > >> on the other seat.
> > > >
> > > > Which is also illegel.
> > >
> > > Well, if its *illegal* it clearly couldn't have happened that way.
> > >
> > > pt
> >
> > Illegal? Ain't that a sick bird?
>
> I could try to pretend that I did that on purpose, but I won't.
> Usenet spelling critiques seem to always have their own errors.
If there was a spelling critique there, it was *TOTALLY* an accident. My
> On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 2:22:29 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote:
> > In article <XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131>,
> > Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > news:XnsA639C460DB1...@69.16.179.42:
> > >
> > > > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> > > > news:dtqdpu...@mid.individual.net:
> > > >
> > > >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie.
> > > >>>>> No car sold in the US has an entertainment screen visible to
> > > >>>>> the driver.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> DVD player in the passenger seat ?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>I've never seen one in the front. I doubt it would be legal
> > > >>>anywhere in the US.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm interpreting Lynn's suggestion as a handheldplayer sitting
> > > >> on the other seat.
> > > >
> > > > Which is also illegel.
> > >
> > > Well, if its *illegal* it clearly couldn't have happened that way.
> > >
> > > pt
> >
> > Illegal? Ain't that a sick bird?
>
> I could try to pretend that I did that on purpose, but I won't.
> Usenet spelling critiques seem to always have their own errors.
only intended play was the "illegal = sick bird" gag.
> >
> > Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
> > it?
> >
> > Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm.
>
> Should I have tagged it as such?
I was talking about mine. Though yours is pretty near as thick. :)
> > Yep, making something illegal *ALWAYS* stops it from happening, doesn't
> > it?
> >
> > Excuse me while I try not to choke on the sarcasm.
>
> Should I have tagged it as such?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 3, 2016, 6:24:44 PM7/3/16
to
Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131:
It's clearly not caused by the "self driving car" that isn't a self
driving car.
news:XnsA639F055DD...@216.166.97.131:
driving car.
Scott Lurndal
Jul 5, 2016, 10:35:49 AM7/5/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> writes:
>In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>
>In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>
>> In article <nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> >"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> >
>> >http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>> >
>> >"Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>> >
>> >http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>> >
>> >Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>>
>>
>> Hal's busy reading me another article about it, mentioning that
>> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
>> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
>> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie, and that Tesla's
>> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on the
>> wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
>>
>> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>> Tesla.
>
>> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
>> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
>> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie, and that Tesla's
>> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on the
>> wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
>>
>> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>> Tesla.
>
>One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie. No car sold
>in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
Laptop? IPAD? Portable DVD player?
>in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
FWIW, one can watch a DVD on my car's main display, but only when
the transmission is in Park.
Richard Hershberger
Jul 5, 2016, 10:55:03 AM7/5/16
to
On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 4:05:04 PM UTC-4, Peter Trei wrote:
> > to audio through it. And it's also possible to have a smaller device (such as
> > a phone or tablet) playing audio through the car.
> >
> > (N.B. My wife has a Model S, so I've got a fair bit of experiene driving one.)
> > Especially one who causes an NTSB investigation, which will take up a
> > significant amount of resources.
> >
> > It's important to note that Tesla's "auto pilot" feature does not, so far,
> > really have anything terribly new: other manufacturers refer to the cruise
> > control part as "active cruise control," and lane-departure warnings have been
> > available as options on mid-to-high end cars for a decade or so... and some of
> > them have, in fact, been offering options for steering control related to
> > that. (I think it may be the first with the perpendicular self-parking
> > feature.)
> >
> > The main differences between Tesla and the other guuys are:
> >
> > 1) Tesla rolled it out to a huge portion of their customer base, as a software
> > update. And subsequent software updates have changed the behaviour.
> >
> > 2) Tesla mostly relies on cameras for the auto-pilot, while the competitors
> > who've been offering it usually use non-visual sensors (lidar or even ir).
> > [Yes, I know Tesla has non-visual sensors as well, but it's using normal
> > cameras for a lot of it.]
> >
> > The auto-pilot feature is very convenient, but it's got a lot of limitations,
> > and it has some ... really not great failure modes. (One time, for example,
> > it decided to try to merge us into the right shoulder of a freeway, because it
> > got confused by an offramp.)
> >
> > Anyway. I'm looking forward to reading the NTSB report, if/when it is
> > available.
>
> The article I read claims that (1) there is dashcam footage showing the crash,
> and (2) the first guess is that the system failed to distinguish a white
> truck from empty sky, and changed lanes into the truck.
>
> The interesting issue will be whether Tesla gets sued, and is so, what
> precedents get set.
>
> If it can be proved that the driver was grossly negligent, Tesla may get off.
>
> pt
Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way, making its driver and his employer the liable parties. These would be the obvious targets for a lawsuit by the Tesla driver's family. It being a truck, it almost certainly has commercial liability insurance coverage, typically for $1 Million, which in the ordinary course of events is sufficient for any plausible damages claim. I would expect a plaintiff's lawyer to prefer this straightforward liability case over an experimental legal theory against Tesla. The exception, I suppose, is if this guy's income was so large that the truck's liability coverage comes up short.
Tesla's lawyers have their fingerprints all over the press releases. They clearly have put a lot of effort into ass-covering, and I expect they know their business.
As for the truck driver suing, I expect that would be laughed out of court.
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 3:30:04 PM UTC-4, Sean Eric Fagan wrote:
> > In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>,
> > In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>,
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > >that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie
> >
> > Unproven, since you can't watch video on the Tesla's screen. You *can* listen
> > >that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie
> >
> > to audio through it. And it's also possible to have a smaller device (such as
> > a phone or tablet) playing audio through the car.
> >
> > (N.B. My wife has a Model S, so I've got a fair bit of experiene driving one.)
> >
> > >Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
> > >Tesla.
> >
> > Tesla does not have so many customers that the loss of any can be unnoticed.
> > >Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
> > >Tesla.
> >
> > Especially one who causes an NTSB investigation, which will take up a
> > significant amount of resources.
> >
> > It's important to note that Tesla's "auto pilot" feature does not, so far,
> > really have anything terribly new: other manufacturers refer to the cruise
> > control part as "active cruise control," and lane-departure warnings have been
> > available as options on mid-to-high end cars for a decade or so... and some of
> > them have, in fact, been offering options for steering control related to
> > that. (I think it may be the first with the perpendicular self-parking
> > feature.)
> >
> > The main differences between Tesla and the other guuys are:
> >
> > 1) Tesla rolled it out to a huge portion of their customer base, as a software
> > update. And subsequent software updates have changed the behaviour.
> >
> > 2) Tesla mostly relies on cameras for the auto-pilot, while the competitors
> > who've been offering it usually use non-visual sensors (lidar or even ir).
> > [Yes, I know Tesla has non-visual sensors as well, but it's using normal
> > cameras for a lot of it.]
> >
> > The auto-pilot feature is very convenient, but it's got a lot of limitations,
> > and it has some ... really not great failure modes. (One time, for example,
> > it decided to try to merge us into the right shoulder of a freeway, because it
> > got confused by an offramp.)
> >
> > Anyway. I'm looking forward to reading the NTSB report, if/when it is
> > available.
>
> The article I read claims that (1) there is dashcam footage showing the crash,
> and (2) the first guess is that the system failed to distinguish a white
> truck from empty sky, and changed lanes into the truck.
>
> The interesting issue will be whether Tesla gets sued, and is so, what
> precedents get set.
>
> If it can be proved that the driver was grossly negligent, Tesla may get off.
>
> pt
Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way, making its driver and his employer the liable parties. These would be the obvious targets for a lawsuit by the Tesla driver's family. It being a truck, it almost certainly has commercial liability insurance coverage, typically for $1 Million, which in the ordinary course of events is sufficient for any plausible damages claim. I would expect a plaintiff's lawyer to prefer this straightforward liability case over an experimental legal theory against Tesla. The exception, I suppose, is if this guy's income was so large that the truck's liability coverage comes up short.
Tesla's lawyers have their fingerprints all over the press releases. They clearly have put a lot of effort into ass-covering, and I expect they know their business.
As for the truck driver suing, I expect that would be laughed out of court.
Richard R. Hershberger
Sean Eric Fagan
Jul 5, 2016, 1:45:05 PM7/5/16
to
In article <94855809-2b79-4e38...@googlegroups.com>,
least partially responsible.
Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way,
>making its driver and his employer the liable parties.
In California, the person who could have acted and avoided an accident is at
>Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way,
>making its driver and his employer the liable parties.
least partially responsible.
Peter Trei
Jul 5, 2016, 3:22:30 PM7/5/16
to
at the deepest pockets in sight - in this case, Tesla. That's not always just,
nor fair, but it happens. Some lawyer is likely, if not in this case then in a
similar one, to sue on the basis that the corporate "person" that is Tesla
could have avoided the accident if they'd performed competently.
It could have been much worse - what if the car had hit a child, or several?
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/teslas-crash-could-have-been-much-worse
I'm of the opinion that the only place for this technology at the present
state of development is on limited access highways.
pt
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 5, 2016, 4:15:04 PM7/5/16
to
In article <a25585e5-b8a3-4a5b...@googlegroups.com>,
I'll take it a little further, and say the only place for them is
on the test track, far away from any other drivers or other
humans who might be endangered.
And it would be nice if they screened their test drivers more
carefully. Hal (who's read a lot more items on this event than I
have) pointed out that there was a woman driving *her* car *at
eighty-two mph in a 75 mph zone* and the guy in the Tesla passed
her.
The time to let a raving speed (as in velocity, not what you were
thinking) junkie test something is when if he flames out he harms
nobody but himself.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
on the test track, far away from any other drivers or other
humans who might be endangered.
And it would be nice if they screened their test drivers more
carefully. Hal (who's read a lot more items on this event than I
have) pointed out that there was a woman driving *her* car *at
eighty-two mph in a 75 mph zone* and the guy in the Tesla passed
her.
The time to let a raving speed (as in velocity, not what you were
thinking) junkie test something is when if he flames out he harms
nobody but himself.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 5, 2016, 5:39:53 PM7/5/16
to
s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) wrote in
news:o9urq...@kithrup.com:
In real life (and no, that doesn't always include California), juries
routinely assign partial responsibility to multiple parties. In this
case, they may well decide the truck that didn't yield right away and
the driver who was watching a movie instead of the road are equally
responsible. In which case, if they decided the suit was worth $1
million, it would be divided in half, per the percentages assigned.
Or they could, in theory, decide that both drivers and Tesla are all
equally responsible, and divide it into thirds.
This happens all the time.
On the other hand, in California, one cannot profit from a crime, and
reckless driving is a misdemeanor. so the dead guy's heirs may have a
tough fight getting anything if the defense attorney(s) are smart.
news:o9urq...@kithrup.com:
routinely assign partial responsibility to multiple parties. In this
case, they may well decide the truck that didn't yield right away and
the driver who was watching a movie instead of the road are equally
responsible. In which case, if they decided the suit was worth $1
million, it would be divided in half, per the percentages assigned.
Or they could, in theory, decide that both drivers and Tesla are all
equally responsible, and divide it into thirds.
This happens all the time.
On the other hand, in California, one cannot profit from a crime, and
reckless driving is a misdemeanor. so the dead guy's heirs may have a
tough fight getting anything if the defense attorney(s) are smart.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 5, 2016, 5:43:41 PM7/5/16
to
Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a25585e5-b8a3-4a5b...@googlegroups.com:
> On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-4, Sean Eric Fagan
> wrote:
>> In article
>> <94855809-2b79-4e38...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield
>> >right of way, making its driver and his employer the liable
>> >parties.
>>
>> In California, the person who could have acted and avoided an
>> accident is at least partially responsible.
>
> ...and in the US, lawsuits, whether merited or ummerited, tend
> to be pointed at the deepest pockets in sight
More the collection actions than the lawsuits, in reality.
> - in this case,
> Tesla. That's not always just, nor fair, but it happens. Some
> lawyer is likely, if not in this case then in a similar one, to
> sue on the basis that the corporate "person" that is Tesla could
> have avoided the accident if they'd performed competently.
Anything is possible with a jury, but since California law
specifically requires the driver of a "self driving" (that isn't
self driving, even by Tesla's claim) car have a human driver at the
controls, ready to take over in, well, *exactly* this sort of
event, it seems unlikely that Tesla will be found responsible.
Yeah, the plaintiffs will certainly trot out that old pile of
steaming bullshit in an attempt to get more free money.
Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor when
he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement is
supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's restitution
fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are paid, IIRC.)
news:a25585e5-b8a3-4a5b...@googlegroups.com:
> On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-4, Sean Eric Fagan
> wrote:
>> In article
>> <94855809-2b79-4e38...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield
>> >right of way, making its driver and his employer the liable
>> >parties.
>>
>> In California, the person who could have acted and avoided an
>> accident is at least partially responsible.
>
> ...and in the US, lawsuits, whether merited or ummerited, tend
> to be pointed at the deepest pockets in sight
> - in this case,
> Tesla. That's not always just, nor fair, but it happens. Some
> lawyer is likely, if not in this case then in a similar one, to
> sue on the basis that the corporate "person" that is Tesla could
> have avoided the accident if they'd performed competently.
specifically requires the driver of a "self driving" (that isn't
self driving, even by Tesla's claim) car have a human driver at the
controls, ready to take over in, well, *exactly* this sort of
event, it seems unlikely that Tesla will be found responsible.
>
> It could have been much worse - what if the car had hit a child,
> or several?
OH THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
> It could have been much worse - what if the car had hit a child,
> or several?
Yeah, the plaintiffs will certainly trot out that old pile of
steaming bullshit in an attempt to get more free money.
Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor when
he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement is
supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's restitution
fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are paid, IIRC.)
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 5, 2016, 5:45:23 PM7/5/16
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:o9uyv...@kithrup.com:
You're not the only one to believe that.
they do bear some responbility.
him into the sun.
news:o9uyv...@kithrup.com:
>
> And it would be nice if they screened their test drivers more
> carefully. Hal (who's read a lot more items on this event than
> I have) pointed out that there was a woman driving *her* car *at
> eighty-two mph in a 75 mph zone* and the guy in the Tesla passed
> her.
If Tesla's drive assist feature will drive that illegally, perhaps
> And it would be nice if they screened their test drivers more
> carefully. Hal (who's read a lot more items on this event than
> I have) pointed out that there was a woman driving *her* car *at
> eighty-two mph in a 75 mph zone* and the guy in the Tesla passed
> her.
they do bear some responbility.
>
> The time to let a raving speed (as in velocity, not what you
> were thinking) junkie test something is when if he flames out he
> harms nobody but himself.
>
If he wants to go really fast, put him on top of a missile and fire
> The time to let a raving speed (as in velocity, not what you
> were thinking) junkie test something is when if he flames out he
> harms nobody but himself.
>
him into the sun.
lal_truckee
Jul 5, 2016, 6:25:16 PM7/5/16
to
On 7/5/16 2:43 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor when
> he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement is
> supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's restitution
> fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are paid, IIRC.)
Yeah, OK. So who's the victim?
> Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor when
> he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement is
> supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's restitution
> fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are paid, IIRC.)
Certainly not the Tesla driver. He's a perp. He's the one breaking the
law and abusing technology.
Certainly not the truck driver. He's the one making a left turn across
on coming traffic with clearly no reasonable expectation of safe progress.
Certainly not Tesla engineering. They're the ones offering a fancy
cruise control coupled with strict admonition against mis-use, with
examples.
Maybe Tesla Corporation is the victim - they're the ones being publicly
abused in public forums by riffraff such as we. Maybe Tesla should sue
the driver's estate?
Seriously, why has it taken Tesla so long to download the stored data
and determine all the details, such as impact speed, speed for previous
minutes, last driver wheel input time, steering SW inputs, state of
roadway markings, ...
Peter Trei
Jul 5, 2016, 6:48:16 PM7/5/16
to
Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 5, 2016, 7:15:03 PM7/5/16
to
In article <XnsA63C961BB9E...@69.16.179.42>,
Yeah, except ideally you'd want him to survive long enough to
report.
report.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 5, 2016, 7:15:03 PM7/5/16
to
In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
But Tesla's based in California, isn't it?
Still, you have a point.
Still, you have a point.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 5, 2016, 7:15:03 PM7/5/16
to
In article <nlhc49$n8r$1...@dont-email.me>,
My guess: they have downloaded it and are analyzing it six ways
from Sunday.
And they'll publish their findings when they're ready.
from Sunday.
And they'll publish their findings when they're ready.
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 5, 2016, 8:15:35 PM7/5/16
to
to be a sufficient report.
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 5, 2016, 8:16:17 PM7/5/16
to
Cryptoengineer
Jul 5, 2016, 9:09:29 PM7/5/16
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in
news:nlhikf$7rf$3...@dont-email.me:
According to Tesla, they do.
The accident was on May 7. Tesla says it informed the NHTSA
immediatly. However, it didn't reach putblic knowledge until
June 30.
The thing that makes this interesting is that on May 18, Tesla
and Musk together sold $2B worth of Tesla stock. Musk inists that
this was not 'material informmation. But last week, when
the accident became public, Tesla stock fell 5%.
There are going to be lawsuits.
pt
news:nlhikf$7rf$3...@dont-email.me:
The accident was on May 7. Tesla says it informed the NHTSA
immediatly. However, it didn't reach putblic knowledge until
June 30.
The thing that makes this interesting is that on May 18, Tesla
and Musk together sold $2B worth of Tesla stock. Musk inists that
this was not 'material informmation. But last week, when
the accident became public, Tesla stock fell 5%.
There are going to be lawsuits.
pt
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 5, 2016, 10:55:40 PM7/5/16
to
sneeze these days you're not exactly going out on a limb with that
prediction. :P
Sean Eric Fagan
Jul 5, 2016, 11:15:04 PM7/5/16
to
In article <a25585e5-b8a3-4a5b...@googlegroups.com>,
entirely liable. That is not the case in California.
>I'm of the opinion that the only place for this technology at the present
>state of development is on limited access highways.
a) I suspect you don't understand what the technology is, then, because:
b) it's been on the raod for about a decade, under various names, from various
manufacturers. (BMW, GM, and MB all have had cars with both aspects of this
type of "driver convenience." The main difference is number of drivers.)
Brad Templeton has *lots* of thoughts (which I don't necessarily agree with)
about autonomous cars, and Tesla's autopilot (which is not the same thing).
Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way,
>> >making its driver and his employer the liable parties.
>>
>> In California, the person who could have acted and avoided an accident is at
>> least partially responsible.
>
>...and in the US, lawsuits, whether merited or ummerited, tend to be pointed
>at the deepest pockets in sight - in this case, Tesla.
That wasn't the statement: the statement was that the truck driver was
>> >Sued by whom? The truck, by all accounts, failed to yield right of way,
>> >making its driver and his employer the liable parties.
>>
>> In California, the person who could have acted and avoided an accident is at
>> least partially responsible.
>
>...and in the US, lawsuits, whether merited or ummerited, tend to be pointed
>at the deepest pockets in sight - in this case, Tesla.
entirely liable. That is not the case in California.
>I'm of the opinion that the only place for this technology at the present
>state of development is on limited access highways.
b) it's been on the raod for about a decade, under various names, from various
manufacturers. (BMW, GM, and MB all have had cars with both aspects of this
type of "driver convenience." The main difference is number of drivers.)
Brad Templeton has *lots* of thoughts (which I don't necessarily agree with)
about autonomous cars, and Tesla's autopilot (which is not the same thing).
Sean Eric Fagan
Jul 5, 2016, 11:30:12 PM7/5/16
to
In article <XnsA63CD73B68...@216.166.97.131>,
Duh.
Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The thing that makes this interesting is that on May 18, Tesla
>and Musk together sold $2B worth of Tesla stock.
A sale which was planned and announced well in advance, per SEC regulations.
>The thing that makes this interesting is that on May 18, Tesla
>and Musk together sold $2B worth of Tesla stock.
Duh.
Sean Eric Fagan
Jul 5, 2016, 11:30:13 PM7/5/16
to
In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
Thank you!
I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
"sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
I managed to miss that.
>I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
Thank you!
I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
"sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
Gary R. Schmidt
Jul 6, 2016, 8:11:10 AM7/6/16
to
what? It plays regardless of what state the transmission is in!
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Peter Trei
Jul 6, 2016, 8:58:18 AM7/6/16
to
kept quiet about the accident until afterwards to prevent a price drop.
The 5% drop which occurred after it came to light would have shaved
$100M off the sale's revenue, had it occurred beforehand.
This hinges on whether the accident was 'material information', which
could reasonably have been expected to impact investor activity. Musk
says it wasn't. There are 100M reasons to think otherwise.
pt
Scott Lurndal
Jul 6, 2016, 9:13:37 AM7/6/16
to
"Gary R. Schmidt" <grsc...@acm.org> writes:
> Gecko/20100228 Thunderbird/2.0.0.24 Mnenhy/0.7.6.666
>In-Reply-To: <6BPez.43565$ha3....@fx41.iad>
>X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
>X-Received-Body-CRC: 2972527001
>X-Received-Bytes: 2726
the engine computer over the CANbus and interrogates the transmission
status. No wire to cut in that case.
> Gecko/20100228 Thunderbird/2.0.0.24 Mnenhy/0.7.6.666
>In-Reply-To: <6BPez.43565$ha3....@fx41.iad>
>X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
>X-Received-Body-CRC: 2972527001
>X-Received-Bytes: 2726
>
>On 6/07/2016 00:35, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>>>
>>>> In article <nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>>>>
>>>> Hal's busy reading me another article about it, mentioning that
>>>> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
>>>> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
>>>> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie, and that Tesla's
>>>> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on the
>>>> wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>>>> Tesla.
>>>
>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie. No car sold
>>> in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
>>
>> Laptop? IPAD? Portable DVD player?
>>
>> FWIW, one can watch a DVD on my car's main display, but only when
>> the transmission is in Park.
>>
>And if you cut this little wire that goes from there to here, guess
>what? It plays regardless of what state the transmission is in!
Although it's far more likely that the entertainment system contacts
>On 6/07/2016 00:35, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> In article <o9nG3...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>>>
>>>> In article <nl6b62$hrt$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'"
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/Self-driving-car-driver-died-after-crash-in-8334982.php
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I the only one who is thinking self fulfilling prophecy?
>>>>
>>>> Hal's busy reading me another article about it, mentioning that
>>>> the guy had had six speeding tickets in the preceding year
>>>> (including one for driving sixty-something in a 35-mph zone) and
>>>> that he was busy watching a Harry Potter movie, and that Tesla's
>>>> rules clearly state that the "driver" must have both hands on the
>>>> wheel and be ready to react to any emergency.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the guy had friends who will miss him, but he's no loss to
>>>> Tesla.
>>>
>>> One wonders on what he was watching the Harry Potter movie. No car sold
>>> in the US has an entertainment screen visible to the driver.
>>
>> Laptop? IPAD? Portable DVD player?
>>
>> FWIW, one can watch a DVD on my car's main display, but only when
>> the transmission is in Park.
>>
>And if you cut this little wire that goes from there to here, guess
>what? It plays regardless of what state the transmission is in!
the engine computer over the CANbus and interrogates the transmission
status. No wire to cut in that case.
Peter Trei
Jul 6, 2016, 9:18:36 AM7/6/16
to
On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-4, Sean Eric Fagan wrote:
> That wasn't the statement: the statement was that the truck driver was
> entirely liable. That is not the case in California.
>
> >I'm of the opinion that the only place for this technology at the present
> >state of development is on limited access highways.
>
> a) I suspect you don't understand what the technology is, then, because:
> b) it's been on the raod for about a decade, under various names, from various
> manufacturers. (BMW, GM, and MB all have had cars with both aspects of this
> type of "driver convenience." The main difference is number of drivers.
Its possible that I don't understand all the ins and outs, but
> That wasn't the statement: the statement was that the truck driver was
> entirely liable. That is not the case in California.
>
> >I'm of the opinion that the only place for this technology at the present
> >state of development is on limited access highways.
>
> a) I suspect you don't understand what the technology is, then, because:
> b) it's been on the raod for about a decade, under various names, from various
> manufacturers. (BMW, GM, and MB all have had cars with both aspects of this
> type of "driver convenience." The main difference is number of drivers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_departure_warning_system
confirms what I'd thought - Lane Departure *Warning* systems are old, the
earliest back in the early 1990s. Ditto adaptive cruise control.
But Lane *Keeping* systems, which autonomously steer the car to keep it in
lane, go back only to 2013. Tesla's system goes beyond this, incorporating
sign reading, adaptive cruise control, and semi-automated passing.
With Tesla's deceptively named 'Autopilot', the driver spends a good deal
of the drive with literally nothing to do, and human nature is such that
attention flags under such circumstances. Nonetheless he or she is expected
to instantly recognize and take control if the system fails in some way,
as it did in the present case.
That's a recipe for disaster on busy roads, with cross streets and pedestrians.
The system is probably acceptably safe on limited access highways, where the
problem to be solved is much simpler, in either stop-and-go, or in light
traffic.
The Google system seems much more comprehensive, and can deal with far more
complex situations before a driver needs to take over.
pt
Peter Trei
Jul 6, 2016, 10:46:57 AM7/6/16
to
the interlock.
Very long-lived thread here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forum/t-1838.html
In my 2007 Altima, a lot of menus (both navigation and entertainment) gray
out if I'm out of Park. It's annoying.
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Jul 6, 2016, 11:00:04 AM7/6/16
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 6, 2016, 12:10:54 PM7/6/16
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:o9v6s...@kithrup.com:
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 6, 2016, 12:11:59 PM7/6/16
to
lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:nlhc49$n8r$1...@dont-email.me:
> On 7/5/16 2:43 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor
>> when he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement
>> is supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's
>> restitution fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are
>> paid, IIRC.)
>
> Yeah, OK. So who's the victim?
Irrelevant under the law in question. It goes to the fund, not the
victim.
news:nlhc49$n8r$1...@dont-email.me:
> On 7/5/16 2:43 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Note: Since the dead guy was, in fact, committing a misdemanor
>> when he died, technically, any money collected from a judgement
>> is supposed to be automatically siezed by the victim's
>> restitution fund in California. (Before attorney's fees are
>> paid, IIRC.)
>
> Yeah, OK. So who's the victim?
victim.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 6, 2016, 12:13:41 PM7/6/16
to
Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com:
Scott Lurndal
Jul 6, 2016, 12:26:09 PM7/6/16
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <o9vIG...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
>>
>>I managed to miss that.
>>
>>Thank you!
>>
>>I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
>>"sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
>
>Okay, I've never been in Florida at all. What's a sunpass?
FasTrak in the bay area.
>In article <o9vIG...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
>>
>>I managed to miss that.
>>
>>Thank you!
>>
>>I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
>>"sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
>
>Okay, I've never been in Florida at all. What's a sunpass?
Jesper Lauridsen
Jul 6, 2016, 7:25:01 PM7/6/16
to
On 2016-07-06, Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In my 2007 Altima, a lot of menus (both navigation and entertainment) gray
> out if I'm out of Park. It's annoying.
So the co-driver can't adjust the navigation on the fly? That would be
>
> In my 2007 Altima, a lot of menus (both navigation and entertainment) gray
> out if I'm out of Park. It's annoying.
a deal breaker for me.
Cryptoengineer
Jul 6, 2016, 10:30:20 PM7/6/16
to
Jesper Lauridsen <rors...@sorrystofanet.dk> wrote in
news:nlk40b$rhp$1...@dont-email.me:
I can select from addresses I've pre-programmed into it (forex 'Home'),
but cant use the on-screen keyboard to enter a new address. The latter
process is very slow.
pt
news:nlk40b$rhp$1...@dont-email.me:
but cant use the on-screen keyboard to enter a new address. The latter
process is very slow.
pt
Don Bruder
Jul 6, 2016, 11:26:22 PM7/6/16
to
In article <XnsA63DE4F2FC...@216.166.97.131>,
I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
Your phone call or text isn't worth *MY* life, no matter what it's about.
--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
Your phone call or text isn't worth *MY* life, no matter what it's about.
--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
Gary R. Schmidt
Jul 6, 2016, 11:49:24 PM7/6/16
to
how the delivered units work, just the after-market ones. (And given
some of the very stupid decisions being made in the automotive industry
lately, I wouldn't be surprised if keeping the entertainment unit off
the CANbus isn't one of them!)
And, as was pointed out later, there may exist cheat codes to override
the lock-out.
Alan Baker
Jul 7, 2016, 2:47:22 AM7/7/16
to
...change stations on the radio...
...listen to the radio at all?
Kevrob
Jul 7, 2016, 6:10:34 AM7/7/16
to
while leaving his passengers' device active?
Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
Jul 7, 2016, 6:15:44 AM7/7/16
to
In some research, talking to a passenger reduces
your attention as much as talking on the phone.
In reality, a passenger may know when to pause
the conversation.
On the other hand, may a passenger use their phone?
Or play a video game on the phone?
How about in a bus, or a train, or a chauffeur car
or a taxi? Or Uber?
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jul 7, 2016, 6:44:02 AM7/7/16
to
On Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:26:18 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>In article <XnsA63DE4F2FC...@216.166.97.131>,
> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jesper Lauridsen <rors...@sorrystofanet.dk> wrote in
>> news:nlk40b$rhp$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>> > On 2016-07-06, Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In my 2007 Altima, a lot of menus (both navigation and entertainment)
>> >> gray out if I'm out of Park. It's annoying.
>> >
>> > So the co-driver can't adjust the navigation on the fly? That would be
>> > a deal breaker for me.
>> >
>>
>> I can select from addresses I've pre-programmed into it (forex 'Home'),
>> but cant use the on-screen keyboard to enter a new address. The latter
>> process is very slow.
>>
>> pt
>
>I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
>consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
>*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
That'd be super useful for those of us who use the phone as a car GPS,
>In article <XnsA63DE4F2FC...@216.166.97.131>,
> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jesper Lauridsen <rors...@sorrystofanet.dk> wrote in
>> news:nlk40b$rhp$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>> > On 2016-07-06, Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In my 2007 Altima, a lot of menus (both navigation and entertainment)
>> >> gray out if I'm out of Park. It's annoying.
>> >
>> > So the co-driver can't adjust the navigation on the fly? That would be
>> > a deal breaker for me.
>> >
>>
>> I can select from addresses I've pre-programmed into it (forex 'Home'),
>> but cant use the on-screen keyboard to enter a new address. The latter
>> process is very slow.
>>
>> pt
>
>I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
>consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
>*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
music player and so on, all controllable by voice. And maybe those kids
will get off your lawn, too.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
Imagine how happy you might be if you spent less time
imagining how happy you might be.
-- j comeau, a softer world
Mark Bestley
Jul 7, 2016, 6:49:23 AM7/7/16
to
me to find out where I should change train or bus whilst commuting and
travelling on public transport. SO a silly idea
--
Mark
Greg Goss
Jul 7, 2016, 9:57:14 AM7/7/16
to
Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
>I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
plane.
>I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
>consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
>*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
detecting that?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Don Bruder
Jul 7, 2016, 10:09:42 AM7/7/16
to
In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
is. Neither does anybody else. You can live without that damned phone
for the duration of the trip. Get over it.
>
> >I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
> >consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
> >*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
>
> If you're behind the wheel, you say? How do you automate the phone
> detecting that?
I don't bother. If the phone is in motion above walking speed, it
doesn't work. Period. You can live without that damned phone for the
duration of the trip. Get over it.
Now hang up that damned phone and get the hell off my lawn!
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> >motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> >AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>
> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
> plane.
Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation, whatever it
> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> >motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> >AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>
> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
> plane.
is. Neither does anybody else. You can live without that damned phone
for the duration of the trip. Get over it.
>
> >I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
> >consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
> >*EVERYTHING* else can wait.
>
> If you're behind the wheel, you say? How do you automate the phone
> detecting that?
doesn't work. Period. You can live without that damned phone for the
duration of the trip. Get over it.
Now hang up that damned phone and get the hell off my lawn!
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jul 7, 2016, 10:24:17 AM7/7/16
to
On 7/6/16 11:26 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
> consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
> *EVERYTHING* else can wait.
>
> Your phone call or text isn't worth *MY* life, no matter what it's about.
>
I can *WALK* faster than 5MPH. And run in short spurts over 15.
> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT! I don't care who you are, what you do, or any other
> consideration: If you're behind the wheel, you've got *ONE* job: Drive.
> *EVERYTHING* else can wait.
>
> Your phone call or text isn't worth *MY* life, no matter what it's about.
>
I can be sitting in a PASSENGER seat of a car and going at 60.
Sorry, you'll have to come up with a better idea.
Oh, should there also be a law preventing the driver from speaking?
Listening to music? Humming to himself?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jul 7, 2016, 10:26:10 AM7/7/16
to
On 7/7/16 10:09 AM, Don Bruder wrote:
> In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>>> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>>> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>>
>> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
>> plane.
>
> Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation, whatever it
> is. Neither does anybody else.
If you're in someone else's car and they're driving? And you're perhaps
> In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>>> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>>> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>>
>> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
>> plane.
>
> Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation, whatever it
> is. Neither does anybody else.
getting directions to how to find them? Which is commonly the case when
on vacation.
Nah, you're full of crap.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jul 7, 2016, 10:50:30 AM7/7/16
to
On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 07:09:41 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>> >motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>> >AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>>
>> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
>> plane.
>
>Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation,
Aaaand here we see someone who has no idea of how phones are used these
>In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
>> >motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
>> >AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
>>
>> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
>> plane.
>
>Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation,
days. Tip: It's almost entirely silent.
Please don't make technological pronouncements without awareness of what
you're talking about. It makes you no better than a senior politician.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in
your mouth. Particularly if the thing is cats."
- Lemony Snicket, "The Wide Window"
Don Bruder
Jul 7, 2016, 11:05:04 AM7/7/16
to
In article <nlloq0$fof$2...@dont-email.me>,
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 7/7/16 10:09 AM, Don Bruder wrote:
> > In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> >>> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> >>> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
> >>
> >> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
> >> plane.
> >
> > Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation, whatever it
> > is. Neither does anybody else.
>
>
> If you're in someone else's car and they're driving? And you're perhaps
> getting directions to how to find them? Which is commonly the case when
> on vacation.
>
> Nah, you're full of crap.
No I'm not - I just finished my morning dump. <PHLLLLBBBTT!>
> On 7/7/16 10:09 AM, Don Bruder wrote:
> > In article <du75dm...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've long maintained that cell phones ought to have that feature - In
> >>> motion above 5 MPH? Phone should refuse to function - PERIOD. HANG UP
> >>> AND DRIVE, GODDAMIT!
> >>
> >> The phone can't tell if you're the passenger, or in a bus, taxi or
> >> plane.
> >
> > Good. I don't want to hear your side of the conversation, whatever it
> > is. Neither does anybody else.
>
>
> If you're in someone else's car and they're driving? And you're perhaps
> getting directions to how to find them? Which is commonly the case when
> on vacation.
>
> Nah, you're full of crap.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jul 7, 2016, 11:36:21 AM7/7/16
to
Jesper Lauridsen
Jul 7, 2016, 7:16:49 PM7/7/16
to
On 2016-07-07, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> In some research, talking to a passenger reduces
> your attention as much as talking on the phone.
So I've heard, but I'm not convinced. If you're on your phone you're
>
> In some research, talking to a passenger reduces
> your attention as much as talking on the phone.
presumably trying to convey/acquire some information, i.e. you have to
concentrate.
With the passenger you're together for the duration of the drive and
often before/after as well. So the conversation tends to be more casual
chatter, not really requiring a lot of meat-cpu cycles.
Lynn McGuire
Jul 7, 2016, 7:53:50 PM7/7/16
to
On 7/6/2016 9:45 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <o9vIG...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
>>
>> I managed to miss that.
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
>> "sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
>
> Okay, I've never been in Florida at all. What's a sunpass?
Probably a tollway tag to let your car go through the tollbooths at 70 mph.
> In article <o9vIG...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <7e84ba6c-52f5-47b3...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't know why you're citing California law. The accident was in Florida.
>>
>> I managed to miss that.
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> I don't know Florida driving law at all, other than to ensure I get a
>> "sunpass" when I rent a car there :).
>
> Okay, I've never been in Florida at all. What's a sunpass?
We have TxTag here in The Great State of Texas. Goes on your windshield above the rearview mirror and has a RFID chip in. I use
mine for $20 to $40 a month of tolls.
Lynn
J. Clarke
Jul 7, 2016, 8:21:58 PM7/7/16
to
In article <nlki4o$ral$2...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...
The problem is that (a) none of your passengers could use their phones
either and (b) neither could anybody on a train or bus.
either and (b) neither could anybody on a train or bus.
J. Clarke
Jul 7, 2016, 8:23:09 PM7/7/16
to
Kevrob
Jul 7, 2016, 8:50:34 PM7/7/16
to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TollTag
The big system is E-ZPass:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezpass
Kevin R
Cryptoengineer
Jul 7, 2016, 11:39:14 PM7/7/16
to
Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:cbe56c3d-6e30-4f7e...@googlegroups.com:
This is one of those technologies, which, like laserdiscs, has
already passed its day in the sun.
Newer systems use optical plate readers - no RFID transponder
required. The Mass Pike is due to scrap its tollbooths (and
their 80k/year patronage jobs for toll collectors) this winter.
We already have plate readers on one of the major bridges in
Boston.
pt
news:cbe56c3d-6e30-4f7e...@googlegroups.com:
already passed its day in the sun.
Newer systems use optical plate readers - no RFID transponder
required. The Mass Pike is due to scrap its tollbooths (and
their 80k/year patronage jobs for toll collectors) this winter.
We already have plate readers on one of the major bridges in
Boston.
pt
Dimensional Traveler
Jul 8, 2016, 1:00:55 AM7/8/16
to
for their RFID transponder system but there are a lot of problems with
it. Its not especially accurate in reading the plates and even when it
does read them right, it turns out the DMV database that is used to
determine what vehicle the plate is supposed to be on and who owns it,
umm, has an accuracy issue. Combined with some problems with
mis-billing and multiple billing, there are a lot of unhappy people in
the Bay Area.
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey for Summer 2016
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Jul 8, 2016, 1:19:09 AM7/8/16
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in
news:nlnc24$iro$1...@dont-email.me:
> there are a lot of unhappy people in the Bay Area.
>
When has that not been true?
(And no surprise the DMV database is a clusterfuck. This is the DMV
that spend $120 million to upgrade their computer systems, then
issued a press release that said, basically, "We're too stupid to do
this" and gave up.)
news:nlnc24$iro$1...@dont-email.me:
> there are a lot of unhappy people in the Bay Area.
>
(And no surprise the DMV database is a clusterfuck. This is the DMV
that spend $120 million to upgrade their computer systems, then
issued a press release that said, basically, "We're too stupid to do
this" and gave up.)
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