"Wind and Solar Growth Outpace Gas"

[Lynn McGuire]

"Wind and Solar Growth Outpace Gas"
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wind-and-solar-growth-outpace-gas/

"More than half of electricity generation capacity added to the U.S. grid in 2016 came from renewable resources"

Cool !

Lynn

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:o5jdip$jk8$1...@dont-email.me:

^^^^

Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have been.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:o5jdip$jk8$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Wind and Solar Growth Outpace Gas"
>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wind-and-solar-gro
>> wth-outpace-gas/
>>
>> "More than half of electricity generation capacity added to the
>> U.S. grid in 2016 came from renewable resources"
>>
>> Cool !
> ^^^^
>
> Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have been.

Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.

Lynn

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.

Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to utilities.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in news:o5jq00$rge$2
@dont-email.me:

So do I, but that's still kinda funny. More so, if it wasn't
intentional. All it's lacking is a goat.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com:

Demonstrably untrue. all you have to do is follow Lynn's link, for
instance.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,

Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient storage capacity
(which does not have to be batteries).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-01-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in news:o5jq00$rge$2

>> On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

>>>> Cool !
>>> ^^^^
>>>
>>> Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have been.
>>
>> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>
> So do I, but that's still kinda funny. More so, if it wasn't
> intentional. All it's lacking is a goat.

Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle Goat from
Sweden.

Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top of my head
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Peter Trei]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:31:32 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >
> > > Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
> >
> > Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but it isn't
> > genuinely useful for supplying electricity to utilities.
> >
>
> Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient storage capacity
> (which does not have to be batteries).

This is definitely an issue. Solar and wind work only when the sun shines, or
the wind blows. On a calm night, you have to rely on other sources, stored
energy, or import it from other locations. 'Other sources' can still be
non-carbon - hydro, nuclear, geothermal, tidal, etc.

Storage is the problem - batteries cost a lot, pumped storage only works in
some locations. There are other proposals - underground compressed air storage,
massive flywheels, etc, but they are not well developed.

Importation is possible but requires the appropriate infrastructure. China is
currently committed to spending $88 billion on HVDC lines to import power from
distant solar and wind sources to the coastal cities. The US utility market is
too fragmented and local for such a solution unless the Feds force it on them.

pt

[Greg Goss]

Hydro is good for filling the gaps in solar and wind. Hydro can be
started very quickly when the sun or wind aren't active. With most
hydro, you get a fixed amount of energy per year, and can draw from it
any time in that year.

Hydro should never be baseload, but is so much more useful as backstop
for the less reliable sources.

I grew up in BC, which has big rivers and lots of mountains. It uses
a lot of hydro for baseload. Instead, its hydro should be filling in
for Alberta wind and California solar. We need bigger "wires"
stitching our grid together in this corner of the continent.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Peter Trei]

Those 'bigger wires' are what I referred to upthread, where the Chinese are
installing $88 billion worth of HVDC (High Voltage Direct Current) lines
for that very purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

Unfortunately, the US utility scene is very fragmented and parochial, so
this won't be done here unless there's a Federal mandate. I think there
are analogies to the building of the Interstate Highway system.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:07:41 AM UTC-5, Greg Goss wrote:

Unfortunately for hydro, Big Dam Projects are frowned upon by the
environmentalists and sportsmen who want to save or restore, among
other things, fish habitat.

There's a local river near me where someone has set up a small
scale hydro, which is supposedly much less stressful on the
denizens of riparian environments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_hydro

The more different tools in the toolbox, the better, I would think.

Kevin R

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:03:07 AM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:

> Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle Goat from
> Sweden.
>
> Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top of my head

Ah, the Gävlebocken, for those using a newsreader that displays accents.

My guess is that you happened to remember a news story from one Christmas where Grinch-y arsonists in the city of Gävle burned the effigy ahead of time, spoiling the festivities - which turned up early in my search results when I looked for this.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
news:robertaw-CD0767...@news.individual.net:

> In article
> <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>>
>> Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but
>> it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to
>> utilities.
>>
>
> Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient storage
> capacity (which does not have to be batteries).
>

It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but it's
useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can be started
up on demand, especially if you know you need to a sundown. It's
still a net gain.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:R7GdnYpB55-IuePF...@earthlink.com:

> On 2017-01-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:o5jq00$rge$2
>>> On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> Cool !
>>>> ^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have
>>>> been.
>>>
>>> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>>
>> So do I, but that's still kinda funny. More so, if it wasn't
>> intentional. All it's lacking is a goat.
>
> Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle
> Goat from Sweden.
>
> Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top
> of my head

Everything is funnier if there's a goat involved (except porn). The
actual form of the goat doesn't matter.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:29:27 PM UTC-5, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:R7GdnYpB55-IuePF...@earthlink.com:
>
> > On 2017-01-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> > <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:o5jq00$rge$2
> >>> On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> >>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>> Cool !
> >>>> ^^^^
> >>>>
> >>>> Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have
> >>>> been.
> >>>
> >>> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
> >>
> >> So do I, but that's still kinda funny. More so, if it wasn't
> >> intentional. All it's lacking is a goat.
> >
> > Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle
> > Goat from Sweden.
> >
> > Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top
> > of my head
>
> Everything is funnier if there's a goat involved (except porn). The
> actual form of the goat doesn't matter.

Having goats crop your lawn and brush would reduce emissions from
lawn mowers and other powered yard equipment. Plus, goat cheese
and jerked goat as a by-product of feeding them. There are farmers
who have been doing "rent-a-goat" for some time, now.

http://rentagoat.com/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703578104575397420128248764

I'd imagine they are good for cutting back foliage on steep hillsides
where using a machine is problematic.

I don't expect to see this in my low-rent neighborhood anytime soon, though.

Kevin R

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:27:25 AM UTC-7, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:

> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but it's
> useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can be started
> up on demand, especially if you know you need to a sundown. It's
> still a net gain.

That's true depending on the form of traditional power generation used.

So solar mixes well with fossil fuel generation as a way to reduce - but not eliminate - fossil fuel use.

If, on the other hand, you replace fossil fuels by nuclear... so as to *eliminate* carbon being put into the atmosphere... then, as that doesn't shut down quite as easily for short periods, solar becomes irrelevant.

John Savard

[Peter Trei]

'from one Christmas'?

Try 'over 2/3 of Christmasses'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A4vle_goat

pt

[Lynn McGuire]

One of my neighbors at the office has three goats. I can look out the windows and see them eating all day long. They bite ! So
does her mule.

Lynn

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:176529ed-3a55-4d6a...@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:27:25 AM UTC-7, Gutless
> Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>
>> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but
>> it's useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can
>> be started up on demand, especially if you know you need to a
>> sundown. It's still a net gain.
>
> That's true depending on the form of traditional power
> generation used.

The overall system has to be designed as an overall system, yes.
The people who handle the power grid are actually very, very good
at that.

>
> So solar mixes well with fossil fuel generation as a way to
> reduce - but not eliminate - fossil fuel use.
>
> If, on the other hand, you replace fossil fuels by nuclear... so
> as to *eliminate* carbon being put into the atmosphere... then,
> as that doesn't shut down quite as easily for short periods,
> solar becomes irrelevant.
>

If we ever figure out what to do with the radioactive waste for the
next 10,000 years, nuclear would be a great idea. To get this
vaguely on-topic, Gregory Benford writes a science column in
Galaxy's Edge magazine, the last two issues of which have deal with
that precise issue. Nuclear is not the cinnamon flavored unicorn
farts somew woud like us to believe.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5lnd2$b7l$2...@dont-email.me:

If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at all,
but at least it'll be funnier.

[Scott Lurndal]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:

>>
>If we ever figure out what to do with the radioactive waste for the
>next 10,000 years, nuclear would be a great idea.

There are fuel cycles that produce relatively little long half-life waste.

"According to some toxicity studies,[15] the thorium cycle can
fully recycle actinide wastes and only emit fission product
wastes, and after a few hundred years, the waste from a
thorium reactor can be less toxic than the uranium ore that
would have been used to produce low enriched uranium fuel for
a light water reactor of the same power"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor

[William Hyde]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:18:17 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:07:41 AM UTC-5, Greg Goss wrote:
> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >
> > >> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
> > >
> > >Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to utilities.
> >
> > Hydro is good for filling the gaps in solar and wind. Hydro can be
> > started very quickly when the sun or wind aren't active. With most
> > hydro, you get a fixed amount of energy per year, and can draw from it
> > any time in that year.
> >
> > Hydro should never be baseload, but is so much more useful as backstop
> > for the less reliable sources.
> >
> > I grew up in BC, which has big rivers and lots of mountains. It uses
> > a lot of hydro for baseload. Instead, its hydro should be filling in
> > for Alberta wind and California solar. We need bigger "wires"
> > stitching our grid together in this corner of the continent.
> >
>
> Unfortunately for hydro, Big Dam Projects are frowned upon by the
> environmentalists and sportsmen who want to save or restore, among
> other things, fish habitat.

Hydro which involves flooding large areas is not clean from the GHG point of view, either. Buried organic materials under the new lake begin to decay, giving off CO2 and CH4. This is a long-lived response. Lakes created fifty years ago are still giving off these gases, and their output is not decreasing.

For comparison, such dams are still cleaner than coal or fracked natural gas, but not cleaner, or not by much, than regular natural gas.

In places where the soil has relatively little organic material this would be less of a problem. But just because an area is arid today doesn't mean it always was - there can be much organic material in the top few meters of soil.

I haven't run across CO2 emission estimates for dams in the American southwest, for example. They may be clean, or at least cleaner, than the Quebec James Bay and Great Whale projects.

>
> There's a local river near me where someone has set up a small
> scale hydro, which is supposedly much less stressful on the
> denizens of riparian environments.

"Run of the River" hydro doesn't have the above problem. And thanks for "Riparian" - it's been years since I've seen that word outside technical publications. Or the works of Winston Churchill, who quite liked it.

William Hyde

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 2:22:15 PM UTC-5, William Hyde wrote:

> "Run of the River" hydro doesn't have the above problem. And thanks for "Riparian" - it's been years since I've seen that word outside technical publications. Or the works of Winston Churchill, who quite liked it.

Thanks! I was going to go with "riverine," but changed it at the last minute.

I feel like Bill Buckley explaining why he wrote "irenic" instead of "peaceful."
(Bill said "I needed another syllable!")

Kevin R

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:32:29 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

My sister in Seattle rents goats to eat back the overgrowth in her
yard, where it's too steep to mow, and she can't level it because it's
on an active fault line. She's happy with them.

>> One of my neighbors at the office has three goats. I can look
>> out the windows and see them eating all day long. They bite !
>> So does her mule.

I used to treat our goats like crap and never got bitten, not even
when I picked one up and threw her back over the fence she'd spent an
hour or so escaping.

Butted, yeah, but never bitten.

Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty mellow,
but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious shit. And they
don't forget or forgive, either.

>If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
>goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at all,
>but at least it'll be funnier.

Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a cruel trick
on goats; they're much smarter than they need to be, smarter than any
other ruminant, so they get bored and go looking for trouble. Like
teenagers that never grow up.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

[Kevrob]

ObSF: the Stirling Ring of Fire stories have "the Ram Rebellion,"
with the Brillo folk tales.

Then there are the Fordham University Rams, the Los Angeles (nee
Cleveland, nee St Louis) Rams of the NFL (and the AAFC) and the
US Naval Academy's mascot. The US Military Academy uses a mule.
Cussedness seems to be a good character trait if you are going to
be a mascot.

Kevin R

[Michael F. Stemper]

Well, not really, no. Nuclear is best if operated fully loaded all of
the time. However, load goes up and down. In most areas (those that are
not dominated by electric heating) load bottoms out sometime between
0200 and 0500 and peaks some time between 1400 and 2100. Just by
coincidence, that peak time is when the sun is shining.

In fact, solar power peaks at about the same time that air conditioning
load does. (Amazing coincidence, isn't it?) So solar could make a nice
supplement to nukes.

Of course, the best operational control comes from having generation
sources with many different characteristics, so that you have more tools
in your toolbox.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

[Lynn McGuire]

One of my great-grandfathers was plowing with a pair of mules about 20 miles west of here back in 1945. One of them kicked him in
the stomach, ripping the artery to stomach. He died there.

Lynn

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-september.
org:

> Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty
> mellow, but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious
> shit. And they don't forget or forgive, either.

They're not as dangerous as pigs, but then, pigs are usually kept in
a pen. And are smart enough to know their fate. And resent it.

>
>>If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
>>goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at
>>all, but at least it'll be funnier.
>
> Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a cruel
> trick on goats; they're much smarter than they need to be,
> smarter than any other ruminant, so they get bored and go
> looking for trouble. Like teenagers that never grow up.
>

That is consistent with what I know about goats. They also,
sometimes, just have a mean streak.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5m0tj$j53$1...@dont-email.me:

Mules, like most animals smart enough to have a personality,
sometimes have a mean streak. Or maybe he pissed it off in some
way. The stereotype of beating a mule to make it do something
didn't come out of thin air.

[Mark Bestley]

Nothing to with Stirling. It's by Virginial DeMarce in Eric Flint's
1632 series
<http://www.baen.com/1634-the-ram-rebellion.html>

> Then there are the Fordham University Rams, the Los Angeles (nee
> Cleveland, nee St Louis) Rams of the NFL (and the AAFC) and the
> US Naval Academy's mascot. The US Military Academy uses a mule.
> Cussedness seems to be a good character trait if you are going to
> be a mascot.
>
> Kevin R

--
Mark

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
<taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
>news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-september.
>org:
>

>>>If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
>>>goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at
>>>all, but at least it'll be funnier.
>>
>> Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a cruel
>> trick on goats; they're much smarter than they need to be,
>> smarter than any other ruminant, so they get bored and go
>> looking for trouble. Like teenagers that never grow up.
>>
>That is consistent with what I know about goats. They also,
>sometimes, just have a mean streak.

As do some teenagers.

(The only goats I've owned or otherwise known personally did not have
mean streaks, though one of them was really short-tempered. I'm told
I was lucky.)

[Mark Bestley]

Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:

> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:32:29 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> > > <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > >news:o5lnd2$b7l$2...@dont-email.me:
> > > >
> > > >> On 1/17/2017 11:47 AM, Kevrob wrote:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:29:27 PM UTC-5, Gutless
> > > >>> Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a cruel trick
> > > on goats; they're much smarter than they need to be, smarter than any
> > > other ruminant, so they get bored and go looking for trouble. Like
> > > teenagers that never grow up.
> >
> > ObSF: the Stirling Ring of Fire stories have "the Ram Rebellion,"
> > with the Brillo folk tales.
> >
>
> Nothing to with Stirling. It's by Virginial DeMarce in Eric Flint's
> 1632 series
> <http://www.baen.com/1634-the-ram-rebellion.html>
>

And they are not goats. Brillo is a ram which is a sheep

Also the first stores are by other authors, the book is an anthology so
sorry if I have given the wrong author

[Peter Trei]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

Not doubting you, but I don't see the connection. The only things we can really
do to affect a fault line is to inject high pressure water into it, or build a
large reservoir on top of it.

The amount of digging to level the land on her yard seems picayune in
comparison.

pt

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in

news:gd6t7cdfjqmj13754...@reader80.eternal-september.
org:

> On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
> Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
>>news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-septembe
>>r. org:
>>
>>>>If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
>>>>goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at
>>>>all, but at least it'll be funnier.
>>>
>>> Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a
>>> cruel trick on goats; they're much smarter than they need to
>>> be, smarter than any other ruminant, so they get bored and go
>>> looking for trouble. Like teenagers that never grow up.
>>>
>>That is consistent with what I know about goats. They also,
>>sometimes, just have a mean streak.
>
> As do some teenagers.

True. And some adults.

>
> (The only goats I've owned or otherwise known personally did not
> have mean streaks, though one of them was really short-tempered.
> I'm told I was lucky.)

I have no idea how common such things are. Probably less so than
among humans. We usually train our farm animals better than we do
our children.

(My employer has always been very dog friendly, even keeping doggie
treats at the registers for the regular visitors, many of whom will
stop in just to say hello. Back when I worked on the sales floor,
it always amused me - and the dog owner - when they would ask
timidly if it was OK to bring the dog into the store, and I'd
answer, "Sure. We let people bring children in, and they're far
more destructive." People bring pets along shipping because they
know they're well bahaved. They bring children along shopping for
fear they'll burn the house down if left home alone.)

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

I don't pretend to follow the logic, but her local zoning board says
she cannot build anything on it (that part makes sense), and that
includes changing the natural grade (which doesn't, really).

Maybe they're worried it'll cause a landslide when the fault goes off,
I don't know.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:22:31 PM UTC-5, Mark Bestley wrote:

> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> > ObSF: the Stirling Ring of Fire stories have "the Ram Rebellion,"
> > with the Brillo folk tales.
> >
>
> Nothing to with Stirling. It's by Virginial DeMarce in Eric Flint's
> 1632 series
> <http://www.baen.com/1634-the-ram-rebellion.html>
>

Of course. I confused them with ISOT. At least I didn't
blame Mark Twain. :)

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:53:20 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
and the
> The US Naval Academy's mascot.

{Correction}

.... is a goat

[hamis...@gmail.com]

But how much methane does a goat produce?

[Dimensional Traveler]

Less than a cow?

--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28

[Kevrob]

13% of what a cow produces, this here says:

https://www6.inra.fr/productions-animales_eng/1997-Volume-10/Issue-2-1997/Yearly-methane-emissions-of-digestive-origin-by-sheep-goats-and-equines-in-France

Kevin R

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-01-17, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:03:07 AM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:

>> Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle Goat from
>> Sweden.
>>
>> Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top of my head
>

> Ah, the Gävlebocken, for those using a newsreader that displays accents.
>
> My guess is that you happened to remember a news story from one Christmas
> where Grinch-y arsonists in the city of Gävle burned the effigy ahead of
> time, spoiling the festivities - which turned up early in my search results
> when I looked for this.

Nah. I have a mailing list acquaintance (there is no Cabal!) in ... Norway, I
think?. She keeps us updated for a bit each year on it.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-01-17, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of my neighbors at the office has three goats. I can look out the
> windows and see them eating all day long. They bite ! So
> does her mule.

The city of Knoxville intermittently employs fenced-in goats to try to keep
the kudzu from completely overtaking part of Fort Dickerson Park.

Dave, cue thread drift

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-01-17, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
> Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Nothing to with Stirling. It's by Virginial DeMarce in Eric Flint's
>> 1632 series
>> <http://www.baen.com/1634-the-ram-rebellion.html>
>
> And they are not goats. Brillo is a ram which is a sheep

And Eustace is a sheep-analog, weighing about 6 tons, who only stays out of
trouble because Halt is his owner and she is a _terrifying_ little-old-grandma-
shaped epic sorceress.

Dave, next up, ducks in SF

[Robert Woodward]

In article <XnsA7006032861...@69.16.179.42>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
> news:robertaw-CD0767...@news.individual.net:
>
> > In article
> > <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,

> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire
> >> wrote:
> >>

> >> > Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
> >>

> >> Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but
> >> it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to
> >> utilities.
> >>
> >

> > Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient storage
> > capacity (which does not have to be batteries).

> >
> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but it's
> useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can be started
> up on demand, especially if you know you need to a sundown. It's
> still a net gain.

Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is higher than
night time and the solar power capacity is roughly equal to the
difference. Otherwise, it (and wind power in general) must be backed up
by other power generation methods that might as well be on all the time
(and save the money spent on solar and wind).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in

news:robertaw-1D1E84...@news.individual.net:

> In article <XnsA7006032861...@69.16.179.42>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
>> news:robertaw-CD0767...@news.individual.net:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn
>> >> McGuire wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>> >>
>> >> Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses,
>> >> but it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to
>> >> utilities.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient storage
>> > capacity (which does not have to be batteries).
>> >
>> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but
>> it's useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can
>> be started up on demand, especially if you know you need to a
>> sundown. It's still a net gain.
>
> Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is
> higher than night time

Which is generally is in places where air conditioning is common.

> and the solar power capacity is roughly
> equal to the difference. Otherwise, it (and wind power in
> general) must be backed up by other power generation methods
> that might as well be on all the time (and save the money spent
> on solar and wind).
>

Does not follow. While natual gas is (without subsidies) still
cheaper than solar and wind, it isn't that much cheaper any more,
and won't be at all for much longer. And on-demand natural gas (or
coal) is rather more expensive than base load for either.

It's not the be-all end-all solution to all the world's problems,
but it's useful, and becoming more and more economical every year.
Get over it.

[Scott Lurndal]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
>news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-september.
>org:
>
>> Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty
>> mellow, but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious
>> shit. And they don't forget or forgive, either.
>
>They're not as dangerous as pigs, but then, pigs are usually kept in
>a pen. And are smart enough to know their fate. And resent it.
>>
>>>If you'd leave them alone, the mule will probably let you. The
>>>goats, who knows. They may well hunt you down for no reason at
>>>all, but at least it'll be funnier.
>>
>> Oh, there's a reason -- they're bored. Evolution played a cruel
>> trick on goats; they're much smarter than they need to be,
>> smarter than any other ruminant, so they get bored and go
>> looking for trouble. Like teenagers that never grow up.
>>
>That is consistent with what I know about goats. They also,
>sometimes, just have a mean streak.

They also taste good on tacos. Cabrito is pretty tasty as well.

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-01-18 00:01, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
> news:robertaw-1D1E84...@news.individual.net:
>> In article <XnsA7006032861...@69.16.179.42>,
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity, but
>>> it's useful without, as well. Traditional power generation can
>>> be started up on demand, especially if you know you need to a
>>> sundown. It's still a net gain.
>>
>> Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is
>> higher than night time
>
> Which is generally is in places where air conditioning is common.

More than that. Anywhere that doesn't have a significant fraction of
its load come from electric space heating will have a daytime peak.

--
Michael F. Stemper
I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.

[Greg Goss]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:07:41 AM UTC-5, Greg Goss wrote:

>> Hydro should never be baseload, but is so much more useful as backstop
>> for the less reliable sources.

>There's a local river near me where someone has set up a small
>scale hydro, which is supposedly much less stressful on the
>denizens of riparian environments.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_hydro

Unfortunately for my point, run-of-river doesn't get the "x KW-H per
year to use whenever you need it" that I was trying to make. My point
needs the big dams.

>The more different tools in the toolbox, the better, I would think.

Can't argue with that.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Anthony Nance]

Interesting. Of course, if you end up with a lot more goats,
you get a lot more methane, and 8x as many goats would make
them worse than cows (if the cow population stays relatively
constant).

Just pondering - how much methane do Daleks produce?
- Tony

[Robert Carnegie]

With Daleks that isn't really the first consideration.

[Scott Lurndal]

na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) writes:

>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>>> > But how much methane does a goat produce?
>>> >
>>> Less than a cow?
>>
>> 13% of what a cow produces, this here says:
>>
>> https://www6.inra.fr/productions-animales_eng/1997-Volume-10/Issue-2-1997/Yearly-methane-emissions-of-digestive-origin-by-sheep-goats-and-equines-in-France
>
>
>Interesting. Of course, if you end up with a lot more goats,
>you get a lot more methane, and 8x as many goats would make
>them worse than cows (if the cow population stays relatively
>constant).

On the other hand, cow/goat produced methane is basically
carbon neutral on most timescales - the food they eat aborbs
carbon from the atmosphere, and the cow/goat returns it
back to the atmosphere[*]. It's not like fossil fuels
where the carbon was sequestered millions of years ago.

[*] Methane is mostly removed from the atmosphere in 12 years,
compared with CO2 which can last much, much longer,albeit
CH4 is a bit more potent as a GHG forcing mechanism than CO2.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:o5ntd4$vnc$1...@dont-email.me:

Most places, air conditioning is common. Even in sub-zero winter,
large buildings have to be air conditioned. But there are many other
uses that peak while people are awake, yes.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <XnsA700EA3ECD5...@69.16.179.43>,

Since the simplest way to stop the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere is
to stop using fossil fuels, there won't be be any natural gas or coal
backup for wind power (or provide base load at night). At which point,
wind and solar need substantial storage capacity to not be useless.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in

news:robertaw-CD5758...@news.individual.net:

For values of "simple" that involve "a whole lot of people dying,"
perhaps.

> there won't be be any
> natural gas or coal backup for wind power (or provide base load
> at night). At which point, wind and solar need substantial
> storage capacity to not be useless.
>

I'm guessing you assume you won't be one of the ones left to die,
alone in the dark, with no food or clean water. Because people who
advocate mass starvation *always* assume they'll be among the
privliged elite.

[Lynn McGuire]

+1

I enjoyed my first cabrito in Monterrey in 1972 ?. Good food !

Lynn

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 1/18/2017 10:38 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:o5ntd4$vnc$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 2017-01-18 00:01, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
>>> news:robertaw-1D1E84...@news.individual.net:
>>>> In article <XnsA7006032861...@69.16.179.42>,
>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity,
>>>>> but it's useful without, as well. Traditional power
>>>>> generation can be started up on demand, especially if you
>>>>> know you need to a sundown. It's still a net gain.
>>>>
>>>> Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is
>>>> higher than night time
>>>
>>> Which is generally is in places where air conditioning is
>>> common.
>>
>> More than that. Anywhere that doesn't have a significant
>> fraction of its load come from electric space heating will have
>> a daytime peak.
>>
> Most places, air conditioning is common. Even in sub-zero winter,
> large buildings have to be air conditioned. But there are many other
> uses that peak while people are awake, yes.

The air conditioners in my office building stop running when the outside temperatures drop below 50 F. And shortly thereafter, the
strip heaters kick in. I keep the thermostats at 73 F (A/C) and 70 F (heat).

Lynn

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-01-18 10:38, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:o5ntd4$vnc$1...@dont-email.me:
>> On 2017-01-18 00:01, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
>>> news:robertaw-1D1E84...@news.individual.net:

>>>> Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is
>>>> higher than night time
>>>
>>> Which is generally is in places where air conditioning is
>>> common.
>>
>> More than that. Anywhere that doesn't have a significant
>> fraction of its load come from electric space heating will have
>> a daytime peak.
>>
> Most places, air conditioning is common. Even in sub-zero winter,
> large buildings have to be air conditioned. But there are many other
> uses that peak while people are awake, yes.

As a matter of fact, one building that I worked in ran the A/C basically
year-round because of the large number of servers we had. Our Facilities
people were required to turn on the heating system (gas, not electric)
once a year to certify it.

This was in a north-western suburb of Minneapolis.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5omg0$52o$2...@dont-email.me:

Not a very large building, then.

Also not that "air conditioning" involves a lot more than just
colling the temperature. Expecially in large buildings, where
ventilation failures will eventually suffocate people, and humidity
can cause a world of problems on its own.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5op8o$g8h$1...@dont-email.me:

People generate a lot of heat, too. Large skyscrapers have unique
ventilation system issues, for both circulating fresh air and
dehumidifying. Apparently, at over 1,000 feet height, there begine
to be more serious issues with air pressure differences, as well,
to the point where elevator doors can be jammed shut if they aren't
addressed.

Air conditioning is about a lot more than just cooling.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

No, because we've got a lot more cows than ever would have happened in nature so they're producing a lot more methane.
Methane is a lot more effective as a greenhouse gas than CO2 so even though it degrades quickly it causes a lot more heating than CO2 while it's there.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/understanding-global-warming-potentials
gives methane as being 28-36 times the impact of the same weight as CO2 over 100 years.

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/1/17 1:47 am, Kevrob wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:29:27 PM UTC-5, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>> news:R7GdnYpB55-IuePF...@earthlink.com:
>>

>>> On 2017-01-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

>>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

>>>> news:o5jq00$rge$2

>>>>> On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

>>>>>>> Cool !
>>>>>> ^^^^
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that a global warming joke? If it's not, it should have
>>>>>> been.
>>>>>

>>>>> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>>>>

>>>> So do I, but that's still kinda funny. More so, if it wasn't
>>>> intentional. All it's lacking is a goat.
>>>
>>> Cold goat effigy that gets burned? That would be the G\"avle
>>> Goat from Sweden.
>>>
>>> Dave, do not ask how i know where to look for this off the top
>>> of my head
>>
>> Everything is funnier if there's a goat involved (except porn). The
>> actual form of the goat doesn't matter.
>
> Having goats crop your lawn and brush would reduce emissions from

> lawn mowers and other powered yard equipment. Plus, goat cheese
> and jerked goat as a by-product of feeding them. There are farmers
> who have been doing "rent-a-goat" for some time, now.
>
> http://rentagoat.com/

I'd have thought their ad would have depicted a prettier one.
>
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703578104575397420128248764
>
> I'd imagine they are good for cutting back foliage on steep hillsides
> where using a machine is problematic.
>
> I don't expect to see this in my low-rent neighborhood anytime soon, though.
>
> Kevin R
>


--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/1/17 4:58 am, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
> news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-september.
> org:
>
>> Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty
>> mellow, but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious
>> shit. And they don't forget or forgive, either.
>
> They're not as dangerous as pigs, but then, pigs are usually kept in
> a pen. And are smart enough to know their fate. And resent it.

A guy I used to work with got eaten by his own pigs. They didn't find
much more than chewed bones left.

[Robert Bannister]

I wouldn't want teenager taco.

[Lynn McGuire]

5,300 ft2 built in 2004. Only two 3.5 ton A/C units.

We are in the Houston metroplex. Humidity is a serious issue here.

Lynn

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/1/17 11:46 am, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2017-01-17, Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One of my neighbors at the office has three goats. I can look out the
>> windows and see them eating all day long. They bite ! So
>> does her mule.
>
> The city of Knoxville intermittently employs fenced-in goats to try to keep
> the kudzu from completely overtaking part of Fort Dickerson Park.

I thought that was a kind of antelope, but apparently there's no Z.

[Robert Bannister]

On 17/1/17 12:03 pm, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>

>> Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and biomass.
>

> Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its uses, but it isn't genuinely useful for supplying electricity to utilities.
>

> John Savard
>
A number of countries already produce about half or more of their
electricity with wind and/or solar. I think you're behind the times. My
own, somewhat old-fashioned solar panels mean I break roughly even over
the year on electricity costs.

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/1/17 2:55 am, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>
>> If we ever figure out what to do with the radioactive waste for the
>> next 10,000 years, nuclear would be a great idea.
>
> There are fuel cycles that produce relatively little long half-life waste.
>
> "According to some toxicity studies,[15] the thorium cycle can
> fully recycle actinide wastes and only emit fission product
> wastes, and after a few hundred years, the waste from a
> thorium reactor can be less toxic than the uranium ore that
> would have been used to produce low enriched uranium fuel for
> a light water reactor of the same power"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
>

Does a working thorium reactor actually exist anywhere yet?

[Dimensional Traveler]

I believe "prettier goat" qualifies as an oxymoron.


--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5ovjs$6cs$1...@dont-email.me:

So not very large even by ordinary standards.

>
> We are in the Houston metroplex. Humidity is a serious issue
> here.
>

Isn't Houston more or less build on a swamp?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
news:eeadok...@mid.individual.net:

As I have noted, porn is the one exception to "everything's funnier
if there's a goat involved." You perv.
>>
>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142405274870357810457539742012

>> 8248764
>>
>> I'd imagine they are good for cutting back foliage on steep
>> hillsides where using a machine is problematic.
>>
>> I don't expect to see this in my low-rent neighborhood anytime
>> soon, though.
>>
>> Kevin R
>>
>
>



--

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in

news:eeadub...@mid.individual.net:

> On 18/1/17 4:58 am, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
>> news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-septemb
>> er. org:
>>
>>> Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty
>>> mellow, but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious
>>> shit. And they don't forget or forgive, either.
>>
>> They're not as dangerous as pigs, but then, pigs are usually
>> kept in a pen. And are smart enough to know their fate. And
>> resent it.
>
> A guy I used to work with got eaten by his own pigs. They didn't
> find much more than chewed bones left.

It's appalling, how many pig farmers are missing fingers. And
everyone one of them will tell you how tasty the pig was.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in

news:eeae09...@mid.individual.net:

There are *so* many porn jokes there. But then, you've already
established that you prefer pretty goats.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:mMtfA.3587$gh6....@fx22.iad:

> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>

>>If we ever figure out what to do with the radioactive waste for
>>the next 10,000 years, nuclear would be a great idea.
>
> There are fuel cycles that produce relatively little long
> half-life waste.

It's a pity none are in actual use (though the Chinese and the
Indians are both working on them).

>
> "According to some toxicity studies,[15] the thorium cycle can
> fully recycle actinide wastes and only emit fission product
> wastes, and after a few hundred years, the waste from a
> thorium reactor can be less toxic than the uranium ore that
> would have been used to produce low enriched uranium fuel for
> a light water reactor of the same power"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
>

Imagine if such a reactor had been in use in the 1600s. Are you
*sure* you'd know where the waste dump is today?

(That was, in fact, the subject of Benford's column in Galaxy's
Edge. He was apparently involved in a government sponsored
committee of some sort to develop recommendations on how to mark
radioactive waste dumps that would still clearly mark it as
dangerous for 10,000 years. The end result was more wishful
thinking that actual technology.)

[Scott Lurndal]

hamis...@gmail.com writes:
>On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 4:16:14 AM UTC+11, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) writes:
>> >Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>> > But how much methane does a goat produce?
>> >>> >
>> >>> Less than a cow?
>> >>
>> >> 13% of what a cow produces, this here says:
>> >>
>> >> https://www6.inra.fr/productions-animales_eng/1997-Volume-10/Issue-2-1997/Yearly-methane-emissions-of-digestive-origin-by-sheep-goats-and-equines-in-France
>> >
>> >
>> >Interesting. Of course, if you end up with a lot more goats,
>> >you get a lot more methane, and 8x as many goats would make
>> >them worse than cows (if the cow population stays relatively
>> >constant).
>>
>> On the other hand, cow/goat produced methane is basically
>> carbon neutral on most timescales - the food they eat aborbs
>> carbon from the atmosphere, and the cow/goat returns it
>> back to the atmosphere[*]. It's not like fossil fuels
>> where the carbon was sequestered millions of years ago.
>>
>> [*] Methane is mostly removed from the atmosphere in 12 years,
>> compared with CO2 which can last much, much longer,albeit
>> CH4 is a bit more potent as a GHG forcing mechanism than CO2.
>
>
>No, because we've got a lot more cows than ever would have happened in nature so they're producing a lot more methane.

But they're taking a lot more carbon _out_ of the atmosphere via the
additional biomass they consume. Still carbon neutral on any scale
that matters.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

Got a reference for that?
Because http://ecen.com/eee55/eee55e/growth_of%20methane_concentration_in_atmosphere.htm
disagrees with you

[Robert Carnegie]

When a cow eats grass containing carbon obtained
from carbon dioxide in the atmosphere - where does
the carbon go next?

I think the conclusion may be that it is better
for the environment to grow nothing at all in your
yard, but that doesn't seem right at all.

And cement paving is bad too, did we say that?

[Scott Lurndal]

[Scott Lurndal]

There is a difference between fossil methane (natural gas, oil production) that
is releasing geologic carbon and wetlands/ruminents that are recycling carbon
from the atmosphere. That should be pretty obvious. One is a closed cycle
on a tens of million year timescale, the other is a closed cycle on a circa
20 year timescale.

The paper you cite simply notes the growth in atmospheric methane
fraction (and it is trending towards saturation). It does not attribute
the growth to any particular source.

40% of the methane emissions are natural sources. Of the remaining 60%,
27% is due to livestock farming (and that includes more than just cow burps,
such as manure). 33% is due to fossil fuel production, transportation and use,
another 10% is from landfills. Rice farming and biomass burning are
20% of that 60%. Termites and wetlands are the major natural sources.

Of those, only the 33% are adding geologic carbon[*] to the atmosphere.

[*] Carbon that has been sequestered for tens of millions of years, and since
the CH4 will react with OH and create H2O + CO2, fossil fuel production/transportation/use
is the biggest driver of the overall carbon fraction in the atmosphere
(noting that H2O is a far more potent GHG than either CO2 or CH4).

Personally, I'm all for reducing fossil fuel use with the goal of
eventually preserving the geologic petroleum resources as a chemical
feedstock rather than burning it for energy. Targetting livestock
production won't reduce the geologic fraction which is the important
part to cut, although there are drugs that farmers can feed their
livestock to reduce the CH4 output on a unit basis.

I suspect the leak from the CH4 storage caverns in Porter Ranch
probably added more CH4 (well over 80,000 metric tons) than ruminents last year.

[Scott Lurndal]

Some of it converted to CH4 in the stomach and is emitted
back into the atmosphere. Some is breathed out as CO2. Some is absorbed by the cow itself
(and will be released when the cow dies and decays, or when
a the milk is drunk, or the steaks are consumed and the consumer
breaths out the CO2 or farts CH4).

Where does the carbon in the sweet corn you had yesterday go?

>
>I think the conclusion may be that it is better
>for the environment to grow nothing at all in your
>yard, but that doesn't seem right at all.

Plants absorb CO2 from the atmosphere, which is
a good thing. They release it back eventually when they
rot, are burned (trees, biomass) or are consumed.

All of this is a very short cycle. The problems are adding
_new_ carbon to the cycle, which happens via use of fossil
fuels.

>
>And cement paving is bad too, did we say that?

Cement production uses a considerable amount of energy,
in the form of heat. Much of which comes from burning
natural gas, adding _new_ carbon to the atmosphere.

Note also that Aluminum production uses something like
1% of the worlds electricity, which when produced via
consumption of fossil fuels also adds _new_ carbon to the
atmosphere.

Ultimately, one should consider that the population of
the planet has exceeded its carrying capacity at western
standards of living.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <XnsA70177485E6...@69.16.179.42>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in

> news:robertaw-CD5758...@news.individual.net:
>
> > In article <XnsA700EA3ECD5...@69.16.179.43>,

> > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in
> >> news:robertaw-1D1E84...@news.individual.net:
> >>
> >> > In article <XnsA7006032861...@69.16.179.42>,

> >> > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in

> >> >> news:robertaw-CD0767...@news.individual.net:
> >> >>
> >> >> > In article
> >> >> > <820b1d66-fe0d-40bd...@googlegroups.com>,

> >> >> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn
> >> >> >> McGuire wrote:
> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> > Nope, just a euphemism. I like solar, hydro, and
> >> >> >> > biomass.
> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> Hydro and biomass are good. Solar, like wind, has its
> >> >> >> uses, but it isn't genuinely useful for supplying
> >> >> >> electricity to utilities.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >

> >> >> > Solar and wind can be useful, IF you have sufficient
> >> >> > storage capacity (which does not have to be batteries).

> >> >> >
> >> >> It's *more* useful if you have sufficient storage capacity,
> >> >> but it's useful without, as well. Traditional power
> >> >> generation can be started up on demand, especially if you
> >> >> know you need to a sundown. It's still a net gain.
> >> >
> >> > Solar power is useful (without storage) if daytime demand is
> >> > higher than night time
> >>
> >> Which is generally is in places where air conditioning is
> >> common.
> >>

> >> > and the solar power capacity is roughly
> >> > equal to the difference. Otherwise, it (and wind power in
> >> > general) must be backed up by other power generation methods
> >> > that might as well be on all the time (and save the money
> >> > spent on solar and wind).
> >> >
> >> Does not follow. While natual gas is (without subsidies) still
> >> cheaper than solar and wind, it isn't that much cheaper any
> >> more, and won't be at all for much longer. And on-demand
> >> natural gas (or coal) is rather more expensive than base load
> >> for either.
> >>
> >> It's not the be-all end-all solution to all the world's
> >> problems, but it's useful, and becoming more and more
> >> economical every year. Get over it.
> >
> > Since the simplest way to stop the increase of CO2 in the
> > atmosphere is to stop using fossil fuels,
>
> For values of "simple" that involve "a whole lot of people dying,"
> perhaps.
>

In China because of extreme economic dislocation when we stop buying all
the consumer stuff and spend the money on non-fossil fuel power plants
(and storage capacity for solar panels and windmills) instead? The PRC
government would know it was coming and if they lose the Mandate of
Heaven, that is their problem.

Besides, doing nothing involves "a whole lot of people dying."

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[Lynn McGuire]

The entire Gulf Coast is a swamp.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Most aluminum in the world is produced by hydroelectric power. We did have a nine pot line plant here in Rockdale, Texas using
lignite coal power but it could not compete against the hydro power plants.

Lynn

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote in

news:robertaw-CD5500...@news.individual.net:

Because it's not like the Yellow Horde are people or anything, eh?

You're nearly as racist as Quaddie. Do you hate women as much as he
does, too?

>
> Besides, doing nothing involves "a whole lot of people dying."
>

Perhaps you should kill yourself now, in despair, to avoid the
Christmas rush. It's your duty to humanity!

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:o5r2h2$943$1...@dont-email.me:

And people like Californians are crazy for living here.

(On the other hand, my brother is visiting this weekend from
Nebraska, and hit his first traffic jam before he got off the
airplane at LAX.)

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 1/19/2017 10:14 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> Note also that Aluminum production uses something like
>> 1% of the worlds electricity, which when produced via
>> consumption of fossil fuels also adds _new_ carbon to the
>> atmosphere.

>Most aluminum in the world is produced by hydroelectric power.

Which power could otherwise have been used to offset carbon fuels, so
my point stands.

[Lynn McGuire]

Aren't 90% of solar panels currently made in China ?

And how are you going to store all this "free" wind and solar power ? Elon Musk wants to know as his current home solution is not
working too well.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Not really. It is really hard to transmit power more than a few hundred miles.

Lynn

[hamis...@gmail.com]

and yet over 100 years a pound of methane has almost 30 times the greenhouse impact of a pound of C02.
So because we're producing a hell of a lot more methane it's a large component of the problem.

[Peter Trei]

Are you familiar with High Voltage Direct Current lines?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

They do the trick. China intends to invest $88 billion in them in the next
few years, specifically get get non-carbon power from windy and sunny areas
deep inside the country to where it is needed.

The US really ought to build a national HVDC grid, but our electric supply
industry is very fragmented and parochial. Only an Federal mandate on the
level of the Interstate Highway system would get one in place.

pt

[Kevrob]

Edison makes a comeback v Westinghouse/Tesla?

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

No, I was not. When I left TXU in 1989, we had only three high voltage DC interconnects between Texas (ERCOT) and Oklahoma /
Louisiana. Since Texas is an electrical island (ERCOT), at some point a federal judge ruled that FERC did not have jurisdiction over
ERCOT unless there was an AC interconnect between Texas and the rest of the USA. We electrically islanded our neighbor one nice
spring day because they put an A/C interconnect across the Red River to their sister utility in Oklahoma. A federal judge made us
tie back to them until he made his ruling.

"Depending on voltage level and construction details, HVDC transmission losses are quoted as about 3.5% per 1,000 km, which are 30 –
40% less than with AC lines, at the same voltage levels.[22] This is because direct current transfers only active power and thus
causes lower losses than alternating current, which transfers both active and reactive power."

That is a lot less power loss than an A/C transmission line. In the summer time in Texas, you can see the three phase 345 kV lines
droop due to the aluminum getting warm and stretching. Our limit on the 345 kV lines was 250 amps per circuit. Most of the
transmission lines were double circuits, 500 amps.

"The required converter stations are expensive and have limited overload capacity. At smaller transmission distances, the losses in
the converter stations may be bigger than in an AC transmission line for the same distance.[28] The cost of the converters may not be
offset by reductions in line construction cost and lower line loss."

Ah, there is the gotcha.

Lynn

[Robert Bannister]

At least they have something to hold onto.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 1/18/2017 10:41 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
> news:eeadub...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 18/1/17 4:58 am, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
>>> news:h00t7ctk08pa92tne...@reader80.eternal-septemb
>>> er. org:
>>>
>>>> Mules -- I don't mess with mules. They're smart and pretty
>>>> mellow, but if you do manage to piss one off you're in serious
>>>> shit. And they don't forget or forgive, either.
>>>
>>> They're not as dangerous as pigs, but then, pigs are usually
>>> kept in a pen. And are smart enough to know their fate. And
>>> resent it.
>>
>> A guy I used to work with got eaten by his own pigs. They didn't
>> find much more than chewed bones left.
>
> It's appalling, how many pig farmers are missing fingers. And
> everyone one of them will tell you how tasty the pig was.

I'm not sure if that is cannibalism ...

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

If it is you will want to stop eating fish and shellfish. (What did you
think happens to fishermen and sailors who are lost at sea?)

--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <o5rm70$hj3$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net says...

They get whisked away by mermaids?

--
Juho Julkunen
Sometimes Cthulhu

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:12:38 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 18/1/17 2:55 am, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>>

>>> If we ever figure out what to do with the radioactive waste for the
>>> next 10,000 years, nuclear would be a great idea.
>>
>> There are fuel cycles that produce relatively little long half-life waste.
>>

>> "According to some toxicity studies,[15] the thorium cycle can
>> fully recycle actinide wastes and only emit fission product
>> wastes, and after a few hundred years, the waste from a
>> thorium reactor can be less toxic than the uranium ore that
>> would have been used to produce low enriched uranium fuel for
>> a light water reactor of the same power"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
>>
>

>Does a working thorium reactor actually exist anywhere yet?

Norway's got one running now where they're doing fuel testing.
http://thorenergy.no/second-round-of-thorium-test-irradiation-underway/

Several have been working previously, since the 60s. Lots of other
useful info on this page, too -
http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/thorium.aspx

Cheers - Jaimie
--
207 BC: Chrysippus, Greek stoic philosopher, is believed to have died of
laughter after watching his drunken donkey attempt to eat figs.

[William Hyde]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:28:12 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> And how are you going to store all this "free" wind and solar power ? Elon Musk wants to know as his current home solution is not
> working too well.

When you look at financial projections for hydro companies, there is always a section on estimated precipitation. A drought can be very bad for profits.

One solution is to combine hydro and wind assets. When there is more than enough power, the sluices are shut, and water accumulates behind the dam. When the wind dies down, there's that much more hydro capacity.

Where the geometry is right, wind is used to pump water uphill to the reservoir - a lossy method of storage, but cheaper than batteries.

Small solutions that won't work in most places, but part of the package.

And money-making.

William Hyde

[Don Bruder]

In article <f668d841-7e8b-4db4...@googlegroups.com>,

William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:28:12 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > And how are you going to store all this "free" wind and solar power ? Elon
> > Musk wants to know as his current home solution is not
> > working too well.
>
> When you look at financial projections for hydro companies, there is always a
> section on estimated precipitation. A drought can be very bad for profits.
>
> One solution is to combine hydro and wind assets. When there is more than
> enough power, the sluices are shut, and water accumulates behind the dam.
> When the wind dies down, there's that much more hydro capacity.
>
> Where the geometry is right, wind is used to pump water uphill to the
> reservoir - a lossy method of storage, but cheaper than batteries.

That's *ALMOST* the Oroville Dam on the Feather River in Oroville CA -
outflow makes juice and feeds the grid during "power is expensive" time,
then when the rates drop and power is cheap, and if the lake is low, the
grid powers pumps that push the forebay back up behind the dam.

With the drought that's been happening, I doubt they've been making much
juice in recent years, though...

I say this 'cause used to need to cross a bridge over the middle fork of
the Feather to get to/from town - When I was there, more often than not,
the span crossed a bit less than a mile of water that was usually about
75-100 feet below the bridge deck. Last year, I stumbled across a news
article about the drought that included an aerial photo of that bridge -
Based on what it showed and what I know from having lived there for
several years, I'd guesstimate that the bridge deck was mighty close to
800 feet above what looked like a creek a man could cross dry-footed
with even a halfway decent running jump. Part of the article talked
about the marina behind the dam (about half a mile or so downstream from
the bridge I'm talking about) being on the verge of shutting down
because the lake level was so low that nothing bigger than a rowboat
could get through the shoals to reach the main body of the lake, and the
boat-launch ramps ended at a 200+ foot near-vertical drop to the water.

--
Brought to you by the letter K and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

[David Mitchell]

On 19/01/17 16:14, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

...

> Where does the carbon in the sweet corn you had yesterday go?
>

In my experience, most of it stays in the sweetcorn.