"Robert Jordan: America’s Tolkien"

[Lynn McGuire]

"Robert Jordan: America’s Tolkien"
http://www.tor.com/2016/05/31/robert-jordan-americas-tolkien/

"In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time Magazine declared that George R. R. Martin was “the American Tolkien.” Since then, you’ll be able to
find the phrase splashed on just about every one of Martin’s wonderful novels."

"And for good reason, of course. That’s a really awesome blurb. I’d love it on my own novels. Or how about just “the American
Pullman”? I would be totally cool with that, Mr. Grossman!""

...

"As terrific as his work is (and, seriously, you can put down the pitchforks if you’re a fan of Westeros), George R. R. Martin isn’t
the American Tolkien."

"Robert Jordan is."

I have not read any of GRRM's books since the _Norwood Chronicles_ but I might agree as Robert Jordan certainly thinks outside of my box.

Lynn

[Kevrob]

I haven't read either series, but is there anything _AMERICAN_ about them?
Limited to fantasy with American themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
I think I could make a case for the "Alvin Maker" tales by O. S. Card as
filling that niche. Who fills it better?

Kevin R

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:57:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<l...@winsim.com> wrote in<news:nipoi3$up7$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

Both assertions are absurd.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"

There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.

[...]

[Konrad Gaertner]

On 6/2/2016 12:36 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:57:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in<news:nipoi3$up7$1...@dont-email.me>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> "Robert Jordan: America’s Tolkien"
>> http://www.tor.com/2016/05/31/robert-jordan-americas-tolkien/
>

>> "As terrific as his work is (and, seriously, you can put
>> down the pitchforks if you’re a fan of Westeros), George
>> R. R. Martin isn’t the American Tolkien."
>
>> "Robert Jordan is."
>
>> I have not read any of GRRM's books since the _Norwood
>> Chronicles_ but I might agree as Robert Jordan certainly
>> thinks outside of my box.
>
> Both assertions are absurd.

As absurd as the previous hundred times an author was lauded as the
next Tolkien.

Personally, I feel Steven Erikson is the closest we've seen, if you
allow for rather northern values of "American".


--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[David Johnston]

On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
> in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
>> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
>> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
>
> There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.

That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.

Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's geographic scope
and meandering narrative complete with the resulting "Meanwhile a
thousand miles away, not especially relevant stuff was going on". And
it is set on an unrecognizable Earth in a different time frame with
echoes of our own classic stories. And they are looking for a way to
defeat an amorphous cloud of a darklord who never actually appears on
stage.

On the other hand, Robert Jordan managed to make Tolkien look like a
marvel of concision and for Tolkien's religious subtext he substitutes
his creepy fantasies about humbling haughty women.

I'd say the real American Tolkien is Robert E. Howard, in that he was
the seminal author who laid the groundwork for succeeding swords and
sorcery the way that Tolkien laid the groundwork for high fantasy, but
that defining Tolkien in terms of his seminal importance than his actual
style and subject matter.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I dunno. Tolkien defined a subgenre and he looms over everyone in the
fantasy genre. If there's ANYONE I'd put forth as an American sort-of
Tolkien, it'd have to be Robert E. Howard, and his Conan series, which
defined Sword and Sorcery.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Scott Lurndal]

I think "American" refers to the Author, not the story in the
article Lynn linked to.

[Peter Trei]

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 3:59:27 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> I dunno. Tolkien defined a subgenre and he looms over everyone in the
> fantasy genre. If there's ANYONE I'd put forth as an American sort-of
> Tolkien, it'd have to be Robert E. Howard, and his Conan series, which
> defined Sword and Sorcery.

[Sorry, glitched]

I think we could also propose Doc EE Smith for Space Opera.

All SO since, very much up to and including the continuing Star Wars franchise,
owe a lot to him.

pt

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Well yeah, if you want to go to SF, but I was trying to keep it in the
Fantasy ballpark.

[Lynn McGuire]

With an honorable mention to the Perry Rhodan series.

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 2 June 2016 19:53:03 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
> > <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
> > in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
> > in rec.arts.sf.written:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
> >> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
> >> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
> >
> > There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.
>
> That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.

Dwarfs.

So, Judy Garland is the American Tolkien.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 2 June 2016 20:59:27 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/2/16 12:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > "Robert Jordan: America’s Tolkien"
> > http://www.tor.com/2016/05/31/robert-jordan-americas-tolkien/
> >
> > "In 2005, Lev Grossman of Time Magazine declared that George R. R.
> > Martin was “the American Tolkien.” Since then, you’ll be able to find
> > the phrase splashed on just about every one of Martin’s wonderful novels."
> >
> > "And for good reason, of course. That’s a really awesome blurb. I’d love
> > it on my own novels. Or how about just “the American Pullman”? I would
> > be totally cool with that, Mr. Grossman!""
> >
> > ...
> >
> > "As terrific as his work is (and, seriously, you can put down the
> > pitchforks if you’re a fan of Westeros), George R. R. Martin isn’t the
> > American Tolkien."
> >
> > "Robert Jordan is."
> >
> > I have not read any of GRRM's books since the _Norwood Chronicles_ but I
> > might agree as Robert Jordan certainly thinks outside of my box.
> >
>
>
> I dunno. Tolkien defined a subgenre and he looms over everyone in the
> fantasy genre.

Like I said. Dwarfs.

[David Harmon]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT) in rec.arts.sf.written, Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote,

>I haven't read either series, but is there anything _AMERICAN_ about them?
>Limited to fantasy with American themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"

Oz

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Do you mean L.Frank Baum? He's actually more the American J.K. Rowling;
the Oz books were the Harry Potter of their day.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nis5h5$i55$2...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 6/3/16 5:15 AM, David Harmon wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT) in rec.arts.sf.written, Kevrob
>> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote,
>>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything _AMERICAN_ about them?
>>> Limited to fantasy with American themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
>>
>> Oz
>>
>
> Do you mean L.Frank Baum? He's actually more the American J.K. Rowling;
>the Oz books were the Harry Potter of their day.
>
>

Maybe he means Frank Oz; he's American now.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
<Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
>> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
>> in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>> [...]

>>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
>>> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
>>> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"

>> There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.

> That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.

> Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's
> geographic scope and meandering narrative complete with
> the resulting "Meanwhile a thousand miles away, not
> especially relevant stuff was going on".

Possibly that last bit describes Jordan. It doesn’t
describe LoTR, in which very little ‘not especially
relevant stuff’ goes on.

[...]

> I'd say the real American Tolkien is Robert E. Howard, in
> that he was the seminal author who laid the groundwork
> for succeeding swords and sorcery the way that Tolkien
> laid the groundwork for high fantasy, but that defining
> Tolkien in terms of his seminal importance than his
> actual style and subject matter.

Howard wasn’t alone: Clark Ashton Smith also exerted
considerable influence on the genre. E.g., Fafhrd and the
Grey Mouser, who got their start early in the genre, owe
something to both. I will grant, though, that he’s
certainly the best known of those who shaped it.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:41:18 -0500, Konrad Gaertner
<kgae...@tx.rr.com> wrote
in<news:nipukg$m6t$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 6/2/2016 12:36 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

[...]

>> Both assertions are absurd.

> As absurd as the previous hundred times an author was
> lauded as the next Tolkien.

> Personally, I feel Steven Erikson is the closest we've
> seen, if you allow for rather northern values of
> "American".

He was one of the people who occurred to me when I was
thinking about the question. He certainly qualifies better
than most when it comes to scale and providing a sense of
real historical depth, though the overall tone of his world
is certainly very different. The combined tales of
Michelle Sagara’s Essalieyan universe haven’t quite the
geographic scope, but they’re up there in depth and
complexity and not quite so different in tone.

If we ignore ‘American’ altogether, the Australian writer
Alison Croggon’s Books of Pellinor come closer than most to
evoking (in me, at least) something like the response that
I initially had to Tolkien, though I can’t pin down a
reason for this.

[David Johnston]

On 6/3/2016 11:27 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
> in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
>>> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
>>> in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
>>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>>> [...]
>
>>>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
>>>> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
>>>> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
>
>>> There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.
>
>> That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.
>
>> Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's
>> geographic scope and meandering narrative complete with
>> the resulting "Meanwhile a thousand miles away, not
>> especially relevant stuff was going on".
>
> Possibly that last bit describes Jordan. It doesn’t
> describe LoTR, in which very little ‘not especially
> relevant stuff’ goes on.
>
> [...]

How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and Sam
trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?

>
>> I'd say the real American Tolkien is Robert E. Howard, in
>> that he was the seminal author who laid the groundwork
>> for succeeding swords and sorcery the way that Tolkien
>> laid the groundwork for high fantasy, but that defining
>> Tolkien in terms of his seminal importance than his
>> actual style and subject matter.
>
> Howard wasn’t alone:Clark Ashton Smith also exerted
> considerable influence on the genre. E.g., Fafhrd and the
> Grey Mouser, who got their start early in the genre, owe
> something to both. I will grant, though, that he’s
> certainly the best known of those who shaped it.
>
> Brian
>

Well neither was Tolkien alone. But Clark Ashton Smith is substantially
lower profile than Robert E. Howard in his connection to the genesis of
modern sword and sorcery. Although I have read Smith I can't instantly
name one of his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my head.
Nobody's making a big budget Smith film. Tolkien and Howard are still
big deals even today. Tolkien more than Howard, yes, but Howard's still
pretty big.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 3 June 2016 21:22:01 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> On 6/3/2016 11:27 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
> > <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> >> Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's
> >> geographic scope and meandering narrative complete with
> >> the resulting "Meanwhile a thousand miles away, not
> >> especially relevant stuff was going on".
> >
> > Possibly that last bit describes Jordan. It doesn’t
> > describe LoTR, in which very little ‘not especially
> > relevant stuff’ goes on.
> >
> > [...]
>
> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and Sam
> trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?

If you put it like that, hardly at all, especially
to Bilbo :-) IIRC he was back in Rivendell writing
an enormously long fantasy novel......

IIRC also, in Tolkien's LOTR, Frodo and Sam
have most or all of Book 3 and Book 5 (of the 6,
not counting appendixes) to themselves, but
we also get a hobbit's-eye-view of events in
Rohan (with Merry), and in Minas Tirith (with
Pippin), and what Aragorn is doing.

From Saruman, the Fellowship obtain a palantir -
which Pippin (I think?) accidentally uses to draw
Sauron's attention to hobbits, and then Aragorn
uses to draw it away from them. I forget how
that bears on Frodo's situation, except for the
revelation of Frodo's underwear in the branch
of the story that doesn't have Frodo himself in.
(One does not simply walk into Mordor; one goes
commando.)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me>,

http://tednolan.net/misc/bbcard.jpg

[Kevrob]

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 5:24:02 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >..... yes, but Howard's still
> >pretty big.
>
> http://tednolan.net/misc/bbcard.jpg

Once again, Ms Van Pelt has imperfect knowledge.

Howard did too make it onto bubble gum cards.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/card-profile/171210/1961-Topps-Elston-Howard-495-Baseball-Card-Value-Prices.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Topps-515-Frank-Howard-VG-/162085012833?rmvSB=true

http://www.amazon.com/2012-Panini-Golden-Trading-Howard/dp/B00AY7WK0C

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/GalleryP.cfm/pid/69781/Curly-Howard?ColType=0&sYear=0&sTeam=&sCardNum=&sNote=&sSetName=&sBrand=

Kevin R

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston
<Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 6/3/2016 11:27 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>>> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
>>>> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
>>>> in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
>>>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>>>> [...]

>>>>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
>>>>> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
>>>>> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"

>>>> There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.

>>> That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.

>>> Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's
>>> geographic scope and meandering narrative complete with
>>> the resulting "Meanwhile a thousand miles away, not
>>> especially relevant stuff was going on".

>> Possibly that last bit describes Jordan. It doesn’t
>> describe LoTR, in which very little ‘not especially
>> relevant stuff’ goes on.

> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to
> Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?

How relevant were Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in
Morder’s fence to the Ents’ trashing Saruman’s tower?

Many things were going on simultaneously, often of little
clear relevance to each other, but very little was
described that was not relevant to the story, and the
destruction of Saruman’s tower isn’t even in the running to
be part of that little.

>>> I'd say the real American Tolkien is Robert E. Howard, in
>>> that he was the seminal author who laid the groundwork
>>> for succeeding swords and sorcery the way that Tolkien
>>> laid the groundwork for high fantasy, but that defining
>>> Tolkien in terms of his seminal importance than his
>>> actual style and subject matter.

>> Howard wasn’t alone:Clark Ashton Smith also exerted
>> considerable influence on the genre. E.g., Fafhrd and the
>> Grey Mouser, who got their start early in the genre, owe
>> something to both. I will grant, though, that he’s
>> certainly the best known of those who shaped it.

> Well neither was Tolkien alone. But Clark Ashton Smith
> is substantially lower profile than Robert E. Howard in
> his connection to the genesis of modern sword and
> sorcery.

To readers in general? Certainly: I even said so. To
someone who actually takes a serious look? Depends on just
what is meant by ‘substantially’.

> Although I have read Smith I can't instantly name one of
> his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my
> head.

Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there’s a
fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
moment -- all I can think of is Cabell’s Poictesme. But
how well his work is remembered is quite a different matter
from the extent of his seminal influence.

[...]

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <pfy35faz9rvb.z...@40tude.net>,
b.s...@csuohio.edu says...

>
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston

> > Although I have read Smith I can't instantly name one of
> > his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my
> > head.
>

> Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there?s a

> fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
> moment --

Averoigne

--
Juho Julkunen

[Robert Bannister]

Lyonesse?

-- all I can think of is Cabell’s Poictesme. But
> how well his work is remembered is quite a different matter
> from the extent of his seminal influence.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
>


--

Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:46:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 5/06/2016 1:15 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston
>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> in<news:nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>> On 6/3/2016 11:27 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
>>>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>> in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>>>> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>
>>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to
>>> Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?
>>
>> How relevant were Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in
>> Morder’s fence to the Ents’ trashing Saruman’s tower?

When was Bilbo anywhere near Mordor? That was Frodo.

>>>> Howard wasn’t alone:Clark Ashton Smith also exerted
>>>> considerable influence on the genre. E.g., Fafhrd and the
>>>> Grey Mouser, who got their start early in the genre, owe
>>>> something to both. I will grant, though, that he’s
>>>> certainly the best known of those who shaped it.
>>
>>> Well neither was Tolkien alone. But Clark Ashton Smith
>>> is substantially lower profile than Robert E. Howard in
>>> his connection to the genesis of modern sword and
>>> sorcery.
>>
>> To readers in general? Certainly: I even said so. To
>> someone who actually takes a serious look? Depends on just
>> what is meant by ‘substantially’.
>>
>>> Although I have read Smith I can't instantly name one of
>>> his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my
>>> head.
>>
>> Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there’s a
>> fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
>> moment
>
>Lyonesse?

Averoigne, I think. Lyonesse was Vance, not Smith, wasn't it?

>-- all I can think of is Cabell’s Poictesme. But
>> how well his work is remembered is quite a different matter
>> from the extent of his seminal influence.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:15:31 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston
><Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>in<news:nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[snip]

>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to
>> Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?

^^^^^

>How relevant were Bilbo and Sam trying to find a hole in

^^^^^

>Morder’s fence to the Ents’ trashing Saruman’s tower?

Frodo not Bilbo.

>Many things were going on simultaneously, often of little
>clear relevance to each other, but very little was
>described that was not relevant to the story, and the
>destruction of Saruman’s tower isn’t even in the running to
>be part of that little.

The War of the Ring was big. Some things were only mentioned
after the fact, like the attacks on Lothlorien.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[David Johnston]

Which is what Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time had in common with The Lord
of the Rings. The geographic scope, and the resulting abrupt scene
switches to other characters far away doing things that are only
marginally related to what the characters in the last scene were up to.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 01:35:14 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<l...@sff.net> wrote
in<news:pce7lbho8q7e8uhdo...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:46:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>>On 5/06/2016 1:15 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>>> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston
>>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> in<news:nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

>>>> Although I have read Smith I can't instantly name one of
>>>> his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my
>>>> head.

>>> Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there’s a
>>> fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
>>> moment

>>Lyonesse?

> Averoigne, I think. Lyonesse was Vance, not Smith, wasn't it?

Yes to both. Apparently Averoigne was loosely based on the
Auvergne.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <1i2tkfaqwv4iw$.n4misk1s...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 01:35:14 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><l...@sff.net> wrote
>in<news:pce7lbho8q7e8uhdo...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:46:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>>>On 5/06/2016 1:15 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>>>> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:22:04 -0600, David Johnston
>>>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>> in<news:nisot6$p8p$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>>>>> Although I have read Smith I can't instantly name one of
>>>>> his heros or his fantasy kingdoms off the top of my
>>>>> head.
>
>>>> Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there’s a
>>>> fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
>>>> moment
>
>>>Lyonesse?
>
>> Averoigne, I think. Lyonesse was Vance, not Smith, wasn't it?
>
>Yes to both. Apparently Averoigne was loosely based on the
>Auvergne.

"Thus my cure for clacking knees.."

[Robert Bannister]

Yes, but I thought the concept of an undersea realm like Atlantis was an
old one in France, rather than an invented one.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:35:51 +0800, Robert Bannister

It is, but... oh, I see. But Smith didn't write about Lyonesse, so
far as I know.

The French have actual experience with sinking land, of course; Mont
St. Michel was in the middle of a forest when the first structures
were built on it, rather than in the English Channel.

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-06-05, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>>>> Hyperborea and Zothique come to mind, and there??s a

>>>>> fictional French province whose name escapes me at the
>>>>> moment
>>
>>>>Lyonesse?
>>
>>> Averoigne, I think. Lyonesse was Vance, not Smith, wasn't it?
>>
>>Yes to both. Apparently Averoigne was loosely based on the
>>Auvergne.
>
> "Thus my cure for clacking knees.."

And province-echoed later in Lost Burgundy?

Dave, pyramidae ex machina
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Richard Hershberger]

Taking you to mean Frodo rather than Bilbo: nothing. Implicit in the question, however, is the idea that LoTR is an action adventure about how Frodo destroyed the ring. Let me ask a different question: How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to the Scouring of the Shire? The answer here is "very." If you believe that LoTR is an action adventure about how Frodo destroyed the ring, then the Scouring of the Shire is a weirdly pointless bit of anticlimax. I would submit that anyone who thinks this doesn't understand the book. It isn't about just one thing, but among the things it is about is that evil diminishes the world, even in defeat. The Scouring of the Shire is central to this.

Richard R. Hershberger

[David Johnston]

Nope. I was just talking about scene switching from one scene to
another scene that has extremely little connection to the previous
scene, which is something the Wheel of Time has in common with the Lord
of the Rings.

[Don Bruder]

In article <ba9f8139-071e-48b0...@googlegroups.com>,

"Why can't a story just be a story?"
- Stephen King, by way of William "Stuttering Bill" Denbrough in "IT".

--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

[Taki Kogoma]

On 2016-06-07, David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com>
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 6/7/2016 9:15 AM, Richard Hershberger wrote:
>> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 4:22:01 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and
>>> Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?
>>
>> Taking you to mean Frodo rather than Bilbo: nothing. Implicit in the
>> question, however, is the idea that LoTR is an action adventure about
>> how Frodo destroyed the ring.
>
> Nope. I was just talking about scene switching from one scene to
> another scene that has extremely little connection to the previous
> scene, which is something the Wheel of Time has in common with the Lord
> of the Rings.

Odd. The description of the Ents' attack on Isengard is in "Flotsam
and Jetsam" (Book 3, Chapter 9). Sam, Frodo and Gollum start
considering how to actually enter Mordor after "The Black Gate is
Closed" (Book 4, Chapter 3), five chapters later.

Tolkien does not do what you are accusing him of in this instance.
Peter Jackson gets the blame, as he decided in favor of maintaining
the internal chronology.

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 6/7/2016 3:07 PM, Taki Kogoma wrote:
> On 2016-06-07, David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com>
> allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:
>> On 6/7/2016 9:15 AM, Richard Hershberger wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 4:22:01 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and
>>>> Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?
>>>
>>> Taking you to mean Frodo rather than Bilbo: nothing. Implicit in the
>>> question, however, is the idea that LoTR is an action adventure about
>>> how Frodo destroyed the ring.
>>
>> Nope. I was just talking about scene switching from one scene to
>> another scene that has extremely little connection to the previous
>> scene, which is something the Wheel of Time has in common with the Lord
>> of the Rings.
>
> Odd. The description of the Ents' attack on Isengard is in "Flotsam
> and Jetsam" (Book 3, Chapter 9). Sam, Frodo and Gollum start
> considering how to actually enter Mordor after "The Black Gate is
> Closed" (Book 4, Chapter 3), five chapters later.
>
> Tolkien does not do what you are accusing him of in this instance.
> Peter Jackson gets the blame, as he decided in favor of maintaining
> the internal chronology.
>

But consider that Frodo and Sam could see the fires of the siege of
Minas Tirith as they were climbing the pass into Morder at Minas Morgul.
The chapter where Frodo and Sam do so is many chapters after Tolkien
writes about the battle, so you can't assume that chronologies after
Fellowship are close just because the events are in chapters close to
each other.

--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey for Summer 2016

[David Johnston]

On 6/7/2016 4:07 PM, Taki Kogoma wrote:
> On 2016-06-07, David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com>
> allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:
>> On 6/7/2016 9:15 AM, Richard Hershberger wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 4:22:01 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and
>>>> Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?
>>>
>>> Taking you to mean Frodo rather than Bilbo: nothing. Implicit in the
>>> question, however, is the idea that LoTR is an action adventure about
>>> how Frodo destroyed the ring.
>>
>> Nope. I was just talking about scene switching from one scene to
>> another scene that has extremely little connection to the previous
>> scene, which is something the Wheel of Time has in common with the Lord
>> of the Rings.
>
> Odd. The description of the Ents' attack on Isengard is in "Flotsam
> and Jetsam" (Book 3, Chapter 9). Sam, Frodo and Gollum start
> considering how to actually enter Mordor after "The Black Gate is
> Closed" (Book 4, Chapter 3), five chapters later.
>

No, that's not odd at all. You are merely being overliteral.

[Robert Bannister]

Apart from where there is one central character, I find it hard to think
of a novel that doesn't switch scenes from one subplot to another.

[David Johnston]

I can think of of stories where there are two protagonists who spend
almost all of their time together. And I can think of books where
there's a whole team, but but they don't separate for long, don't put
much distance between each other, and are all working on the same basic
plotline.

[Moriarty]

*Spit* Lord of the Flies.

-Moriarty

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016 23:07:53 UTC+1, Taki Kogoma wrote:
> On 2016-06-07, David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com>
> allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:
> > On 6/7/2016 9:15 AM, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> >> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 4:22:01 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> How relevant were the Ents trashing Saruman's tower to Bilbo and
> >>> Sam trying to find a hole in Mordor's fence?
> >>
> >> Taking you to mean Frodo rather than Bilbo: nothing. Implicit in the
> >> question, however, is the idea that LoTR is an action adventure about
> >> how Frodo destroyed the ring.
> >
> > Nope. I was just talking about scene switching from one scene to
> > another scene that has extremely little connection to the previous
> > scene, which is something the Wheel of Time has in common with the Lord
> > of the Rings.
>
> Odd. The description of the Ents' attack on Isengard is in "Flotsam
> and Jetsam" (Book 3, Chapter 9). Sam, Frodo and Gollum start
> considering how to actually enter Mordor after "The Black Gate is
> Closed" (Book 4, Chapter 3), five chapters later.
>
> Tolkien does not do what you are accusing him of in this instance.
> Peter Jackson gets the blame, as he decided in favor of maintaining
> the internal chronology.

Peter Jackson - that was the name. I'd forgotten.
I really had.

[Richard Hershberger]

It can. It does not follow, however, that therefore all stories are just stories.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Peter Trei]

Really? There are scenes where the zbgvbaf bs gur qrnq nvezna'f pbecfr vf qrfpevorq, jvgu ab oblf ba-fprar. Jr nyfb fjvgpu orgjrra fprarf va gur znva fgbelyvar nf jryy.

pt

[David DeLaney]

Right; sometimes they are a cigar.

Dave, but not a pipe of a thousand words

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 06:50:03 -0500, David DeLaney
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote
in<news:EOydnTrAUJB2ysTK...@earthlink.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 2016-06-08, Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 12:16:52 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote:

>>> "Why can't a story just be a story?"
>>> - Stephen King, by way of William "Stuttering Bill" Denbrough in "IT".

>> It can. It does not follow, however, that therefore all
>> stories are just stories.

> Right; sometimes they are a cigar.

> Dave, but not a pipe of a thousand words

Or to steal (with textual modification) one of the best
ever:

--
Brian M. Scott ~ ~
Scholarly Manor _____________ ~ ~
|_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig

[Robert Bannister]

Well, I chose the word "novel" deliberately for a complex story, usually
about 700+ pages long and usually involving a number of important
characters. Note how Wiki's definition keeps repeating the word "long":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel

[Robert Bannister]

That is more a novella.

[David Johnston]

That would leave a very large range between "novella" and "novel" with
no name.

[Cryptoengineer]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
news:drurjr...@mid.individual.net:

700 pages?

Are you kidding? That's not a novel; thats a doorstop.

I tend to think of anything over about 120 pages as a novel.
Forgive me if that doesn't match up with WSFS definitions.

pt

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <njdeq2$dhj$1...@dont-email.me>,

It felt good to be out of the rain.

[Kevrob]

Now, ain't THAT American?

Kevin R

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:48:43 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
in<news:drurkq...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 8/06/2016 12:39 PM, Moriarty wrote:

[...]

>> *Spit* Lord of the Flies.

> That is more a novella.

By recent somewhat inflated standards it may be a *short*
novel, but it’s a novel.

[Robert Bannister]

I wish they would stop publishing them.

[Robert Bannister]

On 10/06/2016 12:16 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
> news:drurjr...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 8/06/2016 12:30 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 6/7/2016 10:07 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2016 11:20 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 6/7/2016 9:15 AM, Richard Hershberger wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 4:22:01 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/3/2016 11:27 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:05 -0600, David Johnston
>>>>>>>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> in<news:nipvac$os2$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/2/2016 12:17 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
>>>>>>>>>> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> in<news:0a69223d-5be5-4428...@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't read either series, but is there anything
>>>>>>>>>>> _AMERICAN_ about them? Limited to fantasy with American
>>>>>>>>>>> themes, who is the "American Tolkien?"
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> There isn’t one, with or without that limitation.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That entirely depends on what defines Tolkien.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Jordan certainly manages to capture Tolkien's geographic
>>>>>>>>> scope and meandering narrative complete with the resulting
>>>>>>>>> "Meanwhile a thousand miles away, not especially relevant stuff
>>>>>>>>> was going on".
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Possibly that last bit describes Jordan. It doesn’t describe
>>>>>>>> LoTR, in which very little ‘not especially relevant stuff’

Sorry, but I don't like short stories much.

[Anthony Nance]

David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 6/9/2016 9:48 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 8/06/2016 12:30 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 6/7/2016 10:07 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2016 11:20 PM, David Johnston wrote:

[huge snippage]

>>>> Apart from where there is one central character, I find it hard to think
>>>> of a novel that doesn't switch scenes from one subplot to another.
>>>
>>> I can think of of stories where there are two protagonists who spend
>>> almost all of their time together. And I can think of books where
>>> there's a whole team, but but they don't separate for long, don't put
>>> much distance between each other, and are all working on the same basic
>>> plotline.
>>
>> Well, I chose the word "novel" deliberately for a complex story, usually
>> about 700+ pages long and usually involving a number of important
>> characters. Note how Wiki's definition keeps repeating the word "long":
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel
>>
>
> That would leave a very large range between "novella" and "novel" with
> no name.

Oh, we can solve that one. Since there are already a couple diminutives
in use, I recommend keeping novel where it is and using something on the
superlative side to describe the doorstops, like novelissimo; or if you
see doorstops as bad, maybe noveloma, as in, the novel grew a tumor.

How about novelorrhea? Novel-la-dee-dah?

Of course, if you want to stay diminutive, novelini is available.

Tony, who somehow missed this post the first time around,
and who will mercifully stop now