Horrifyingly close to BSP

[James Nicoll]

My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/

First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
GOES THERE.

Updates every two weeks for a year. Well, fifty weeks.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>
>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>
>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>GOES THERE.
>

"Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Robert Woodward]

In article <dtbq0s...@mid.individual.net>,

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
> >
> >http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
> >
> >First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
> >GOES THERE.
> >
>
> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

It was published in the August 1938 issue of Astounding SF; thus,
pre-Golden Age would be appropriate.

[Don Bruder]

In article <dtbq0s...@mid.individual.net>,
t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
> >
> >http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
> >
> >First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
> >GOES THERE.
> >
>
> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

You made it further than I did... I clipped the wall and spun out at
"BSP".

Wuddafugizza BSP? Burn Some Pot? Bright Shiny Pennies? Blatantly Stolen
Property? Bothersome Sound Pollution? Beggars Seeking Parity? Basically
Stupid Plot? Birmingham Street Patrol? Batman's Sexual Preference? Badly
Spoken Prophecies? Bubbling Soup Pot? Barbers Shaving People? Big
Security Problem? Brain Sucker Project? Bicycle Seat Protector?

TLAs with no context are ALMOST as useful as TOB(*)...

















(*That'd be "Tits On Bulls")

--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <dtbq0s...@mid.individual.net>,

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>>
>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>>
>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>>GOES THERE.
>>
>
>"Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

Well, he was writing as Stuart before he became editor of
_Astounding_ and, pretty much, quit writing. (Except for
cage-rattling editorials.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <o9F1q...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <dtbq0s...@mid.individual.net>,
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>>>
>>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>>>
>>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>>>GOES THERE.
>>>
>>
>>"Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
>
>Well, he was writing as Stuart before he became editor of
>_Astounding_ and, pretty much, quit writing. (Except for
>cage-rattling editorials.)
>

I'll grant that, say, _The Black Star Passes_ could be considered
pre-Campbellian despite being written by Campbell,
but the Stuart stories were his model of what he wanted to buy
for Astounding and the very template of "Campbellian".

[Anthony Nance]

Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
> In article <dtbq0s...@mid.individual.net>,
> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>> >
>> >http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>> >
>> >First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>> >GOES THERE.
>> >
>>
>> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
>
> You made it further than I did... I clipped the wall and spun out at
> "BSP".

James is using BSP = "Blatant Self Promotion" in this context.
- Tony

[Anthony Nance]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>>
>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>>
>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>>GOES THERE.
>>
>
> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

Yeah, there's enough fuzziness there that I wonder if James
can give us more definitive criteria for what he's aiming at.

James - any thoughts?
- Tony

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 10:57:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

> >First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
> >GOES THERE.

> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

Well, he _was_ a writer *before* he was an *editor*. Thus, if the Campbellian
era is held to be the era brought about due to John W. Campbell's tenure as
editor of Analog, then something he wrote under the pseudonym of Don A. Stuart
before he became editor of Analog, and submitted to some *other* publishing
venue certainly _does_ qualify as pre-Campbellian.

John Savard

[James Nicoll]

In article <nkr2ib$v9a$2...@dont-email.me>,

In this case, I thought it was funny to use Campbell as an example of the
the SF that was around before he took the helm at Astounding. Also, in this
case I thought some of them might have seen the films. One of them is getting
a certain amount of humour mocking me for thinking she would be familiar with
the 1980s film, which of course pre-dates her birth.

In general, I am exposing a group of young people to classic SF I hope has
not aged into unreadability. Tumithak of the Corridors might be more typical
of the period but I want them to keep coming back....

My rules of thumb for selection are:

* 24 short works (because my victims are busy people)
* overall, half by men, half by women
* significant to the field somehow
* still readable
* still easily available
* no more than one piece per author
* ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
Nourse may not make the final selection.

So far they've read four stories: Who Goes There, A Martian Odyssey, Nightfall
and Vintage Season. Posts to go up every second Thursday.

[Jack_Bohn]

Among the things James Nicoll wrote:

> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
> Nourse may not make the final selection.

For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.

> So far they've read four stories: Who Goes There, A Martian Odyssey, Nightfall
> and Vintage Season. Posts to go up every second Thursday.

I felt "A Martian Odyssey" had nearly aged into unreadability back thirty years ago, but if you got them to read it, great.

--
-Jack

[Scott Lurndal]

"Jack_Bohn" <jackb...@gmail.com> writes:
>Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>
>For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.
>

As for Nourse, I did enjoy _Bladerunner_[*].


[*] No relationship to the film of the same name.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Not quite true: there was a financial relationship.

[Butch Malahide]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 6:23:56 AM UTC-5, Anthony Nance wrote:
> James is using BSP = "Blatant Self Promotion" in this context.

Wow, I sure guessed wrong. I thought it was "The Black Star Passes".

[Anthony Nance]

Oh, I like that; and James' note reads so much differently,
without disrupting the message (too much).

Tony

[Ahasuerus]

1938 was a curious year. On the one hand, when Campbell took over in
October 1937, he inherited Tremaine's backlog, so there was only so
much he could do at first. Even when he started buying new stories, his
choices were limited to what was available at the time: Burks, Gallun,
Schachner, Binder, Wellman (yes, Manly Wade Wellman, who is now mostly
remembered for his John the Balladeer stories), Fearn, Williamson, Doc
Smith (naturally), etc.

On the other hand, as the year dragged on, ASF's tables of contents
contained more and more future Golden Age writers: de Camp (whose first
story appeared in the last Tremaine-edited issue), del Rey (April),
Simak (July, a return to the genre after a hiatus), Hubbard (July),
Jameson (August), Russell (first appearance in 1937 under Tremaine).

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
<jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
>> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
>> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
>> may not make the final selection.

> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
> I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
> it as a lack.

Not even _Star Surgeon_?

[...]

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Jack_Bohn]

Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
> <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
> > Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
> >> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
> >> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
> >> may not make the final selection.
> > For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
> > I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
> > it as a lack.

> Not even _Star Surgeon_?

I don't think so, unless that's something I could conflate into White's Sector General series.

--
-Jack

[Don Bruder]

In article <F2dcz.78$Pi...@fx07.iad>,

Among other things, that would be because Nourse's was _The Blade
Runner_, not _Bladerunner_

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 11:28:33 AM UTC-7, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
> <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
> >> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
> >> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
> >> may not make the final selection.
>
> > For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
> > I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
> > it as a lack.
>
> Not even _Star Surgeon_?

I remember picking that out of a book rack hoping it was a story about doing surgery on stars (the big hydrogen balls, not actors).

I liked it anyway.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:05:53 AM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <nkr2ib$v9a$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Anthony Nance <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> >> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
> >>>
> >>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
> >>>
> >>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's
> >>> WHO GOES THERE.

That just came up in a RL conversation about movies made from old SF stories. My middle stepdaughter has vowed to read it because she didn't like either movie.

> >> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
> >
> >
> >Yeah, there's enough fuzziness there that I wonder if James
> >can give us more definitive criteria for what he's aiming at.
> >
> >James - any thoughts?
>
> In this case, I thought it was funny to use Campbell as an example of the
> the SF that was around before he took the helm at Astounding. Also, in this
> case I thought some of them might have seen the films. One of them is getting
> a certain amount of humour mocking me for thinking she would be familiar with
> the 1980s film, which of course pre-dates her birth.

What, she only relates to movies made during her lifetime?


Mark L. Fergerson

[James Nicoll]

In article <F2dcz.78$Pi...@fx07.iad>, Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:

Didn't the people who did the film buy the rights for the title from Nourse?

There was a screenplay for the Nourse book. It was written by William S
Burroughs....

[James Nicoll]

In article <1bclm5q6xa81f$.8akldp7nyz6v$.d...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
><jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
>in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
>>> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
>>> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
>>> may not make the final selection.
>
>> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
>> I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
>> it as a lack.
>
>Not even _Star Surgeon_?
>
>[...]

I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.

[James Nicoll]

In article <12477660-2713-4143...@googlegroups.com>,

It is one part Old James is Old and one part Movies Are Not Her Deal.

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-06-27, Jack_Bohn <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein,
>> Nourse
>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>
> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any
> Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.

My opinion is that The Universe Between, at least, is a classic, and I was also
favorably impressed while young by Star Surgeon and two of his collections,
Tiger by the Tail & Psi-High and Others.

Dave, unlike some others, though it appears he was publishing right up to the
year he died, his oeuvre is not all that large
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-06-27, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
> um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
> Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.

... The Universe Between, perhaps? (The other title would be a spoiler, in
fact.)

Dave

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <bPidnbQquMOQYOzK...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On 2016-06-27, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
>> um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
>> Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.
>
>... The Universe Between, perhaps? (The other title would be a spoiler, in
>fact.)
>
>Dave

Yes, it's "Between". Though for me *THE* Nourse is always _Raiders From
The Rings_.

Which is now on Amazon in ebook format, though the blurb doesn't give me
a warm fuzzy for the quality of the scan:

"We have watched your plants for millennia."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <nks3a9$qhf$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <1bclm5q6xa81f$.8akldp7nyz6v$.d...@40tude.net>,
>Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
>><jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
>>in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
>>>> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
>>>> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
>>>> may not make the final selection.
>>
>>> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
>>> I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
>>> it as a lack.
>>
>>Not even _Star Surgeon_?
>>
>>[...]
>
>I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
>um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
>Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.

Well, I've read it as an adult, and it's not bad.

But my favorite Nourse work of all time is _Intern_, written
under the pseudonym of "Dr. X." Nonfiction.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <12477660-2713-4143...@googlegroups.com>,
nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a lot different now, what with Netflix and DVDs and stuff;
but back in the day one did not get much of a chance to see a
film that had been made more than a few years ago. Television
channels did run old movies, but as I recall they were (a) very
old and (b) very cheap, and therefore (c) not very good.

[The Last Doctor]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <1bclm5q6xa81f$.8akldp7nyz6v$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
>> <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
>> in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
>>>> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
>>>> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
>>>> may not make the final selection.
>>
>>> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
>>> I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
>>> it as a lack.
>>
>> Not even _Star Surgeon_?
>>
>> [...]
>
> I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
> um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
> Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.

The Universe Between. (The other one is part of the Illuminati serieses I
think?) I had the same reaction (though I think I was nine or so) and when
I saw a hardcover copy for sale a few years ago I couldn't resist.

It's dated, and its themes and ideas have been well used since then so
there's more familiarity than amazement to be had from reading it - but
it's still good.

--
"I am and always will be the optimist.
The hoper of far-flung hopes and the dreamer of improbable dreams."

[Greg Goss]

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>>
>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
>>
>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>>GOES THERE.
>>
>

>"Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?

Grin. The Campbell era is generally considered to be measured from
him as editor. And he vowed to never compete with his authors. Any
SF ideas can be handed off if he's not thinking of using them himself.
He even left out the Stuart story from the infamous 1949 "predicted"
issue. http://www.andrew-may.com/asf/prophecy.htm
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

"Jack_Bohn" <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>
>For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.

The only one I really remember is "Bladerunner", which I really
enjoyed. I'm sure I would remember most of the rest, but I generally
read magazine and collections stories without noting the author.

>> So far they've read four stories: Who Goes There, A Martian Odyssey, Nightfall
>> and Vintage Season. Posts to go up every second Thursday.
>
>I felt "A Martian Odyssey" had nearly aged into unreadability back thirty years ago, but if you got them to read it, great.

Ditto. It never really worked for me. But I all-too-frequently
express my distaste for SF Odysseys in general, so that may not be due
to its age.

[Greg Goss]

Well, the movie licensed the name and credits him.

[Greg Goss]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

>>As for Nourse, I did enjoy _Bladerunner_[*].
>>
>>[*] No relationship to the film of the same name.
>
>Didn't the people who did the film buy the rights for the title from Nourse?

There is an expression of "Thanks" in the credits. I assume that
money changed hands.

[Mike Dworetsky]

For that, see "The Neutronium Alchemist" by Peter F. Hamilton. Well, not so
much surgery as insertion of a bomb that explodes (or was it implodes?) the
stellar body.

>
> I liked it anyway.
>
>
> Mark L. Fergerson

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

[Tim McCaffrey]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:05:53 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <nkr2ib$v9a$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Anthony Nance <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> >> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> >> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>>My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
> >>>
> >>>http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/
> >>>
> >>>First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
> >>>GOES THERE.
> >>>
> >>
> >> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
> >
> >

> >Yeah, there's enough fuzziness there that I wonder if James
> >can give us more definitive criteria for what he's aiming at.
> >
> >James - any thoughts?
>
> In this case, I thought it was funny to use Campbell as an example of the
> the SF that was around before he took the helm at Astounding. Also, in this
> case I thought some of them might have seen the films. One of them is getting
> a certain amount of humour mocking me for thinking she would be familiar with
> the 1980s film, which of course pre-dates her birth.
>

> In general, I am exposing a group of young people to classic SF I hope has
> not aged into unreadability. Tumithak of the Corridors might be more typical
> of the period but I want them to keep coming back....
>
> My rules of thumb for selection are:
>
> * 24 short works (because my victims are busy people)
> * overall, half by men, half by women
> * significant to the field somehow
> * still readable
> * still easily available
> * no more than one piece per author

> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>

> So far they've read four stories: Who Goes There, A Martian Odyssey, Nightfall
> and Vintage Season. Posts to go up every second Thursday.
>
>

> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
> http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

I always found Simak enjoyable, my two favorites (for whatever reason) were
Way Station and Time is the Simplest Thing (both of which would probably be considered a long short story these days). Simak somehow avoided being too specific about the technology, so his fiction seems to age better.

Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his stuff does seem
a bit strange.

- Tim

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <2ef69af6-f219-48e4...@googlegroups.com>,

Tim McCaffrey <timca...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his stuff does seem
>a bit strange.

I don't think it needed retrospect for that.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <2ef69af6-f219-48e4...@googlegroups.com>,
Tim McCaffrey <timca...@aol.com> wrote:
>

>Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his stuff does seem
>a bit strange.

Heh. It was a bit strange at the time.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:19:59 -0700 (PDT), Tim McCaffrey
<timca...@aol.com> wrote
in<news:2ef69af6-f219-48e4...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> I always found Simak enjoyable, my two favorites (for
> whatever reason) were Way Station and Time is the
> Simplest Thing (both of which would probably be
> considered a long short story these days). Simak
> somehow avoided being too specific about the technology,
> so his fiction seems to age better.

_Way Station_ was my favorite Simak. It would not be
considered a long short story; it’s at least a long
novella, even by current standards.

> Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his
> stuff does seem a bit strange.

Some of it is still quite entertaining it one is in the
right mood.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:46:02 +0000 (UTC), James Nicoll
<jdni...@panix.com> wrote
in<news:nks3a9$qhf$1...@reader1.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <1bclm5q6xa81f$.8akldp7nyz6v$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:54:09 -0400, Jack_Bohn
>> <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote
>> in<news:nkrlnh$6b8$1...@dont-email.me> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:

>>> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:

>>>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov,
>>>> Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse and Smith, because the piece
>>>> that inspired me mentioned them in particular. Nourse
>>>> may not make the final selection.

>>> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure
>>> I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt
>>> it as a lack.

>>Not even _Star Surgeon_?

> I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse
> it would be, um, "Brightside Crossing"?

I don’t remember the short stories well enough to be sure
that it’s what I would choose, but it’s certainly a
reasonable choice.

> But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next Door, which I
> liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.

Judging by the Amazon reviews, you’re not alone. For
whatever reason, I always associate him with his medical
fiction.

[James Nicoll]

In article <bPidnbQquMOQYOzK...@earthlink.com>,
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:

>On 2016-06-27, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> I am limited to short works so probably if I did a Nourse it would be,
>> um, "Brightside Crossing"? But for me THE Nourse is The Universe Next
>> Door, which I liked so much as a teen I am afraid to reread it.
>
>... The Universe Between, perhaps? (The other title would be a spoiler, in
>fact.)

AUGH. I keep doing that.

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 9:20:02 AM UTC-6, Tim McCaffrey wrote:

> Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his stuff does seem
> a bit strange.

A lot of the science fiction entries in the Bulwer-Lytton contest seem to be aimed at van Vogt.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:54:12 AM UTC-6, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:

> > * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
> > and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
> > Nourse may not make the final selection.

> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.

The name Alan E. Nourse was immediately recognizable to me, but I can't
immediately recall the name of anything of his that I have read.

Looking him up on the web, the short story collection "The Counterfeit Man"
seems to be a possibility, but it doesn't ring any bells.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <0a02b66a-11df-42de...@googlegroups.com>,

Interesting. I would ask if it's written in 800-word segments,
except I think the B-L entries are supposed to be just one long,
tortuous sentence.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
(now cringing at the thought of an 800-word sentence)
(Christopher Fry's tour-de-force in _Venus Observed_ is only 284)

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 5:37:16 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 10:57:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > >First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
> > >GOES THERE.
>
> > "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
>

> Well, he _was_ a writer *before* he was an *editor*. Thus, if the Campbellian
> era is held to be the era brought about due to John W. Campbell's tenure as
> editor of Analog, then something he wrote under the pseudonym of Don A. Stuart
> before he became editor of Analog, and submitted to some *other* publishing
> venue certainly _does_ qualify as pre-Campbellian.

And if you think an alternate universe in which Don A. Stuart was not a
pseudonym for John W. Campbell is bad...

This article,

http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/01/the-book-series-that-brought-space-opera-into-the-21st-century/

praising the _Ancilliary_ series of novels by Ann Leckie, contains the
following text:

'With a handful of notable exceptions, these stories stuck to the “have ray gun will travel” formulas of Robert A. Heinlein's juveniles'

which turns Robert A. Heinlein into a pre-Campbellian author very different
from the author he actually was. It brought howls of protest from the science-
fiction fans who read it.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Still, Robert A. Heinlein *did* write a juvenile with the title "Have Space
Suit Will Travel", and so the confusion is _somewhat_ understandable. Even
classic Campbell-era SF, while "serious" in a way classic space opera was not,
adhered to enough genre conventions to still be dismissed by outsiders.

John Savard

[Kevrob]

Anyone who has read Heinlein isn't going to accuse him of "Bat Durstonism."
(Thought that was a Galaxy, not ASF/analog trope.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Western#/media/File:GalaxyOct50rearcover.jpg

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <1b45383c-fe6c-4e21...@googlegroups.com>,

I don't see how one can call Heinlein a pre-Campbellian author
within the meaning of the Act, considering he sold his first story,
"Life-line," to Campbell in 1939.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

The Mercy Men is the one I immediately associate with him.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nkurd3$tf6$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 6/28/16 2:04 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:54:12 AM UTC-6, Jack Bohn wrote:
>>> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke,
>Heinlein, Nourse
>>>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in
>particular.
>>>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>>
>>> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not
>read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.
>>
>> The name Alan E. Nourse was immediately recognizable to me, but I can't
>> immediately recall the name of anything of his that I have read.
>>
>> Looking him up on the web, the short story collection "The Counterfeit Man"
>> seems to be a possibility, but it doesn't ring any bells.
>>
>
> The Mercy Men is the one I immediately associate with him.
>

I remember reading the shorts in _Psi High_ over and over on vacation
one year, but right now the Nourse short I recall best (which may
or may not be in PH) had a space crew on the way back to Earth who
find they have a "blob"-like stowaway which is growing without
bounds (and has already consumed a crew member). The only thing
which keeps it back is hydrochloric acid, of which, after a short
run through supplies, they have only one source..

ID?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

"Contamination Crew", the blob-thing is a hlorg.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nkuu04$aa9$1...@dont-email.me>,

Thanks!

"hlorg" sounds a lot like the sound their solution nearly inspires..

[Quadibloc]

Well, yes, such an author would be "very different from the author he actually
was". The added detail you provided only emphasizes that.

John Savard

[Greg Goss]

SImilar "star surgery" (attempted) was part of the backstory of the
Star Trek reboot.

[Joe Bernstein]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:00:04 PM UTC-7, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> In article <12477660-2713-4143...@googlegroups.com>,
> nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:05:53 AM UTC-7, James Nicoll wrote:

[<Bladerunner>, I gather.]

> >> One of them is getting
> >> a certain amount of humour mocking me for thinking she would be
> >> familiar with the 1980s film, which of course pre-dates her birth.

> > What, she only relates to movies made during her lifetime?

> It's a lot different now, what with Netflix and DVDs and stuff;
> but back in the day one did not get much of a chance to see a
> film that had been made more than a few years ago. Television
> channels did run old movies, but as I recall they were (a) very
> old and (b) very cheap, and therefore (c) not very good.

You and I both existed in those days, but neither the person doing the
mocking nor, for that matter, the 1980s film did. VHS was introduced in
the 1970s and reasonably widely spread by the start of the 1980s. Movie
theatres showed old movies *more* often than they do now, and many
colleges had film societies that revived movies all the time. I'm not
sure when I first saw <Casablanca>, but it was before 1989, because I'd
seen it before I saw <When Harry Met Sally>, which quotes from it, in a
theatre that year. (I spent the earlier part of this evening watching
the first half of the latter movie, before reaching what turned out to
be the flaw in the DVD.)

Of course, I grew up in a city of nearly a million people, and it's
possible that you didn't; but I'm reasonably sure the young person in
question grew up in a world where VHS was already outdated, but video
shops and small theatres hadn't yet all closed, and TCM already existed,
so in essentially the best widespread circumstances that have ever
existed for seeing old movies. Although if she's Canadian she may not
have had access to TCM, and I don't know whether there was a Canadian
equivalent.

(I think I've read something by Nourse, but don't remember anything, and
am pretty sure any books of his I owned were among those taken in March.
Ironically, I saw a copy of <Intern> a couple of days ago but had
forgotten it was his. So bad Joe, no ObSF.)

Joe Bernstein

--
Joe Bernstein, writer and tax preparer <j...@sfbooks.com>

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <3d81edf8-7efa-4324...@googlegroups.com>,

That's okay. If you find it, read it; it's interesting. Diary
of young Dr. Nourse's intern year (aka galley slave in a white
coat).

[Jack_Bohn]

Joe Bernstein wrote:

> [<Bladerunner>, I gather.]

No, I think the middle of three "The Thing" movies, the one closest to adapting "Who Goes There?"

> > It's a lot different now, what with Netflix and DVDs and stuff;
> > but back in the day one did not get much of a chance to see a
> > film that had been made more than a few years ago. Television
> > channels did run old movies, but as I recall they were (a) very
> > old and (b) very cheap, and therefore (c) not very good.

I suppose it is at least theoretically possible to assemble a rough metric on how easy old movies were to see over time. Studio records, or, with more legwork, public records of theatrical releases and re-releases and TV broadcasts and Internet clicks. Would an estimate of actual and/or potential audience for each venue add some accuracy, or at least answer those who would argue it to the personal ("I don't have Internet / didn't have cable / lived 20 miles from the nearest movie house back when it was uphill in the snow")? Still, it's different from the 1940s-90s when everyone saw Bugs Bunny all the time to today when you have to specifically look for it (or maybe have some old codger force it on you to see if it has aged to unwatchability).

> VHS was introduced in
> the 1970s and reasonably widely spread by the start of the 1980s. Movie
> theatres showed old movies *more* often than they do now, and many
> colleges had film societies that revived movies all the time.

Were the first VHSs of "2001" anamorphicly squeezed so that everthing was twice as skinny as it was supposed to be? I'm remembering watching the movie in that condition, but am placing it in the lounge off my dorm's lobby, where I'm thinking any system of film reel(s) and projector (without the anamorphic lens) would have been unweildy.

--
-Jack

[Peter Trei]

No. They chopped off the ends, or letterboxed it. Both were available.

pt

[lal_truckee]

On 6/28/16 9:20 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> Movie
> theatres showed old movies *more* often than they do now, and many
> colleges had film societies that revived movies all the time.

Don't forget 16mm dubs were available for some movies. In the late 1960s
a fellow I lived with had access to a 16mm projector and a source of
films, and for a while we had weekly film parties.

In the late 1950s my high school obtained a 16mm print of Forbidden
Planet for an extended lunch hour showing.

[William Hyde]

On Tuesday, 28 June 2016 17:49:27 UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/28/16 2:04 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:54:12 AM UTC-6, Jack Bohn wrote:
> >> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
> >>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
> >>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
> >
> >> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.
> >
> > The name Alan E. Nourse was immediately recognizable to me, but I can't
> > immediately recall the name of anything of his that I have read.
> >
> > Looking him up on the web, the short story collection "The Counterfeit Man"
> > seems to be a possibility, but it doesn't ring any bells.
> >
>
> The Mercy Men is the one I immediately associate with him.

At the time I certainly thought it was his best, more ambitious than his other works. But he was always a good read.

William Hyde

[Kevrob]

A buddy of mine used to source films for Milwaukee's X-Con back
in the late 1970s, early 1980s. He also worked for the local
repertoire film house, the Oriental Landmark, as it was before
it was triplexed. There were massive printed catalogs of films
that could be ordered for exhibit, and rates differed depending
on who was renting the film, and for what purpose: educational,
versus public performance, profit v non-profit. I'm sure there
are people reading this who used such tools when filling the
marquee for film programs at cons, or colleges, or other fora.

The mad dash to or from the bus station or train station to get
the film canisters in time for the scheduled showings,
and then back to the rental warehouse (or on to the next exhibitor!)
was always amusing. At least, it amused me. My job wasn't on the
line if the theatre in Kansas City didn't get "Harold and Maude"
on time.

Kevin R

[James Nicoll]

In article <3d81edf8-7efa-4324...@googlegroups.com>,
Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>

>Of course, I grew up in a city of nearly a million people, and it's
>possible that you didn't; but I'm reasonably sure the young person in
>question grew up in a world where VHS was already outdated, but video
>shops and small theatres hadn't yet all closed, and TCM already existed,
>so in essentially the best widespread circumstances that have ever
>existed for seeing old movies. Although if she's Canadian she may not
>have had access to TCM, and I don't know whether there was a Canadian
>equivalent.
>

TCM does exist up here. Contrary to certain threads back in the old days,
we do get feeds for a lot of US channels.

(of course, we covertly insert silent u into the appropriate words)

[David Johnston]

On 6/27/2016 10:54 AM, Jack_Bohn wrote:
> Among the things James Nicoll wrote:
>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke,
>> Heinlein, Nourse
>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in
>> particular. Nourse may not make the final selection.
>
> For a moment I read that last as Norton. I'm pretty sure I have not
> read any Nourse, and have not until now felt it as a lack.
>

The Blade Runner is worth reading.

[David Johnston]

On 6/28/2016 9:19 AM, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:05:53 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <nkr2ib$v9a$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> Anthony Nance <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <nkq9m5$1qs$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>>>>> My Young People Read Old SFF project is finally a go:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/

>>>>>
>>>>> First up, as one of two examples of Pre-Campbellian SF, Don A. Stuart's WHO
>>>>> GOES THERE.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Pre-Campbellian" / "Don A. Stuart" ???!?
>>>
>>>

>>> Yeah, there's enough fuzziness there that I wonder if James
>>> can give us more definitive criteria for what he's aiming at.
>>>
>>> James - any thoughts?
>>
>> In this case, I thought it was funny to use Campbell as an example of the
>> the SF that was around before he took the helm at Astounding. Also, in this
>> case I thought some of them might have seen the films. One of them is getting

>> a certain amount of humour mocking me for thinking she would be familiar with
>> the 1980s film, which of course pre-dates her birth.
>>

>> In general, I am exposing a group of young people to classic SF I hope has
>> not aged into unreadability. Tumithak of the Corridors might be more typical
>> of the period but I want them to keep coming back....
>>
>> My rules of thumb for selection are:
>>
>> * 24 short works (because my victims are busy people)
>> * overall, half by men, half by women
>> * significant to the field somehow
>> * still readable
>> * still easily available
>> * no more than one piece per author

>> * ideally, the authors included should include Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Nourse
>> and Smith, because the piece that inspired me mentioned them in particular.
>> Nourse may not make the final selection.
>>

>> So far they've read four stories: Who Goes There, A Martian Odyssey, Nightfall
>> and Vintage Season. Posts to go up every second Thursday.

>>
>>
>> --
>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>> My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
>> http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
>> defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
>

> I always found Simak enjoyable, my two favorites (for whatever reason) were
> Way Station and Time is the Simplest Thing (both of which would probably be considered a long short story these days). Simak somehow avoided being too specific about the technology, so his fiction seems to age better.
>

> Got a kick out of Van Vogt as well, but in retrospect his stuff does seem
> a bit strange.
>

> - Tim
>

No more than any writer whose fundamental premise was that logic was evil.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <nl1ktp$m1n$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>TCM does exist up here. Contrary to certain threads back in the old days,
>we do get feeds for a lot of US channels.
>
>(of course, we covertly insert silent u into the appropriate words)

Oh, so simsub is just a cover?

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Greg Goss]

"Jack_Bohn" <jackb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Joe Bernstein wrote:

>Were the first VHSs of "2001" anamorphicly squeezed so that everthing was twice as skinny as it was supposed to be? I'm remembering watching the movie in that condition, but am placing it in the lounge off my dorm's lobby, where I'm thinking any system of film reel(s) and projector (without the anamorphic lens) would have been unweildy.

I first saw 2001 on a 16 mm showing in my college cafeteria
beer'n'movies night. It was hard to grasp what was going on, even
after reading the novel a few times.

Much later, I saw a brand new 70 mm print (supposedly the publisher
plays it through once to check the quality then sends it to
distribution. Our showing was the first public showing, thus only the
second time that it had been run.) Still didn't like it much.

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 5:17:16 PM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <3d81edf8-7efa-4324...@googlegroups.com>,
> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:

> >Although if she's Canadian she may not
> >have had access to TCM, and I don't know whether there was a Canadian
> >equivalent.

> TCM does exist up here. Contrary to certain threads back in the old days,
> we do get feeds for a lot of US channels.

Indeed. What we don't get in Canada is (or was) HBO; instead, we had two
domestic channels, Superchannel and First Choice (the latter failed and was
subsumed into Superchannel) in the top-tier Pay TV slot.

And we don't get C-SPAN or the NASA channel on our Cable TV either, although
the latter is apparently available via satellite.

But while some specialty Cable TV channels are replaced by Canadian versions,
for the most part we get the other specialty cable channels from the U.S..

John Savard

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 4:58:43 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 5:17:16 PM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <3d81edf8-7efa-4324...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>
> > >Although if she's Canadian she may not
> > >have had access to TCM, and I don't know whether there was a Canadian
> > >equivalent.
>
> > TCM does exist up here. Contrary to certain threads back in the old days,
> > we do get feeds for a lot of US channels.
>
> Indeed. What we don't get in Canada is (or was) HBO; instead, we had two
> domestic channels, Superchannel and First Choice (the latter failed and was
> subsumed into Superchannel) in the top-tier Pay TV slot.

Don't you get HBO Canada (which I can't access from the US)?

pt

[Quadibloc]

That is why I said "or was". Originally, HBO and the like were kept out of
Canada, with domestic services only being allowed into that particular niche.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

In fact HBO Canada is technically a Canadian company. It's just a
Canadian company that has a deal to show HBO stuff.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <nl39su$nrd$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In fact HBO Canada is technically a Canadian company. It's just a
>Canadian company that has a deal to show HBO stuff.

Compare "BBC America".

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> And we don't get C-SPAN or the NASA channel on our Cable TV either, although
> the latter is apparently available via satellite.
>

Surely watching the NASA channel over anything _but_ satellite is plain wrong.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Greg Goss]

"Aeronautics" comes before "Space".

Whatever came of the plans to use solar ultra-ultra-lights to circle
above customers and give internet/cable to the whole area cheaper than
satellites?

[Cryptoengineer]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
news:dtq4qf...@mid.individual.net:

> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>>Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> And we don't get C-SPAN or the NASA channel on our Cable TV either,
>>> although the latter is apparently available via satellite.
>>>
>>
>>Surely watching the NASA channel over anything _but_ satellite is
>>plain wrong.
>
> "Aeronautics" comes before "Space".
>
> Whatever came of the plans to use solar ultra-ultra-lights to circle
> above customers and give internet/cable to the whole area cheaper than
> satellites?

They're going forward, with glitches:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/project-skybender-
google-drone-tests-internet-spaceport-virgin-galactic

pt

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA639764A33...@216.166.97.131>,
treif...@gmail.com says...

There's something wrong with the story as presented in that article. It
doesn't give any reason to believe that the technology used would be any
happier stuck on a drone that it would stuck on a cell tower for
openers. And it doesn't say how they get the '40 times faster' without
going to a 40 times higher frequency.

[Don Bruder]

In article <dtq4qf...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
> >Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> And we don't get C-SPAN or the NASA channel on our Cable TV either,
> >> although
> >> the latter is apparently available via satellite.
> >>
> >
> >Surely watching the NASA channel over anything _but_ satellite is plain
> >wrong.
>
> "Aeronautics" comes before "Space".
>
> Whatever came of the plans to use solar ultra-ultra-lights to circle
> above customers and give internet/cable to the whole area cheaper than
> satellites?

So far as I know, those plans are currently "in progress" by at least
two companies - Google being a major player, and *I THINK* Virgin
Aerospace being the other. If I'm not mis-remembering, Google plans
on/is testing high altitude balloons, while Virgin was last heard (by
me, anyway) making noises about solar-powered robotic planes circling at
high altitudes. Seems I recall the Virgin plan was for the planes to
talk to each other (and eventually the 'net) over laser links to avoid
the "curve of the earth" problem. Google's plan seemed to involve
more-or-less standard wireless links to a ground station that would then
talk to a satellite.

--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

[Don Bruder]

In article <MPG.31e1b018f...@news.eternal-september.org>,

As I mentioned elsethread, at least one of them was talking about laser
linkages, both between the units, and from units to whatever base they
talk to. As for "why not on a cell tower", too simple: You can't put
something on a cell tower that doesn't exist and/or can't be brought
into existence for any number of reasons.

From what I've heard/read of the plans to date, the "target market" is
remote/inaccessible areas - Villages on the back side of beyond nowhere.
Mountain valleys in Tibet that are so remote and/or inaccessible that
there's almost no such thing as trade or travel with the outside world
that isn't accomplished either on foot or donkey-back. Places in the
Australian Outback that have no other contact due to suffering from
"pick a direction and travel a thousand miles, and you *JUST MIGHT* see
a kangaroo or dying sheep - if you're very, very lucky" syndrome. "Spot
access" for isolated mountain domiciles (Idaho comes to mind) that can't
convince anybody to run a wire to them at any price because although as
the crow flies, it's only 20 miles to town, the up-and-down of the
mountains means the wire needs to be 247 miles long to get there. And so
on...

[J. Clarke]

In article <nl8qe6$rse$2...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...

So now it's got to constantly have a laser tracking it.

> As for "why not on a cell tower", too simple: You can't put
> something on a cell tower that doesn't exist and/or can't be brought
> into existence for any number of reasons.

If it doesn't exist and can't be brought into existence then you can't
put it on a drone either.

> From what I've heard/read of the plans to date, the "target market" is
> remote/inaccessible areas - Villages on the back side of beyond nowhere.
> Mountain valleys in Tibet that are so remote and/or inaccessible that
> there's almost no such thing as trade or travel with the outside world
> that isn't accomplished either on foot or donkey-back. Places in the
> Australian Outback that have no other contact due to suffering from
> "pick a direction and travel a thousand miles, and you *JUST MIGHT* see
> a kangaroo or dying sheep - if you're very, very lucky" syndrome. "Spot
> access" for isolated mountain domiciles (Idaho comes to mind) that can't
> convince anybody to run a wire to them at any price because although as
> the crow flies, it's only 20 miles to town, the up-and-down of the
> mountains means the wire needs to be 247 miles long to get there.

No, that's a microwave relay on top of a mountain, which should cost
about the same as multiple drones and their infrastructure.

> And so
> on...

If they're talking about bringing cell service to remote locations then
why are they making something that won't work with existing cellular
equipment?

[Cryptoengineer]

Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote in news:nl8p32$rse$1...@dont-email.me:

Virgin is talking about satellite access.
Facebook and Google are talking drones.

http://www.wired.com/2016/01/facebook-zuckerberg-internet-org/
http://datacenterfrontier.com/connecting-the-unwired-world-with-balloons-
satellites-lasers-and-drones/

Clearly they think they can make money with this.

pt

[Don Bruder]

In article <MPG.31e1b8a25...@news.eternal-september.org>,

HELLO!!!! Is there any intelligent life out there???? The gizmos *ARE
GOING TO BE THE LASER DOING THE TRACKING*. And so what if it were the
other way around? We have, and have had for at least a decade (probably
much longer than that) the technology to put a laser follower on a
target and have it stay there for as long as we care for it to keep
doing it (or the fuse blows, whichever comes first)

Is that the best objection you can come up with?

>
> > As for "why not on a cell tower", too simple: You can't put
> > something on a cell tower that doesn't exist and/or can't be brought
> > into existence for any number of reasons.
>
> If it doesn't exist and can't be brought into existence then you can't
> put it on a drone either.

Hello, Captain Argument! The cell tower to put the relay on is what
doesn't exist. For whatever reason or combination of reasons, it ain't
there, and ain't likely ever to be there. Thus, the "flying cell tower"
that's being discussed.

>
> > From what I've heard/read of the plans to date, the "target market" is
> > remote/inaccessible areas - Villages on the back side of beyond nowhere.
> > Mountain valleys in Tibet that are so remote and/or inaccessible that
> > there's almost no such thing as trade or travel with the outside world
> > that isn't accomplished either on foot or donkey-back. Places in the
> > Australian Outback that have no other contact due to suffering from
> > "pick a direction and travel a thousand miles, and you *JUST MIGHT* see
> > a kangaroo or dying sheep - if you're very, very lucky" syndrome. "Spot
> > access" for isolated mountain domiciles (Idaho comes to mind) that can't
> > convince anybody to run a wire to them at any price because although as
> > the crow flies, it's only 20 miles to town, the up-and-down of the
> > mountains means the wire needs to be 247 miles long to get there.
>
> No, that's a microwave relay on top of a mountain, which should cost
> about the same as multiple drones and their infrastructure.

With that statement, you demonstrate beyond any question that you have
next-to-zero knowledge of how microwave relays work. Hint: To avoid
being dismissed as an idiot, you need to stop talking when the very act
of opening your mouth gives away the fact that you don't have a clue
about the subject under discussion.

>
> > And so
> > on...
>
> If they're talking about bringing cell service to remote locations then
> why are they making something that won't work with existing cellular
> equipment?

Idunno, J - You tell me. You're the one with an objection to every
possibility. Before you do, please engage a brain-cell or two and
actually THINK about it for a few minutes. If you do that, you JUST
MIGHT realize how utterly stupid your question is.

How's that old line go? "Nothing will ever be accomplished if first,
every possible objection to accomplishing it must be overcome", I think
gets the gist of it. You're a walking example of an inexhaustible list
of objections.

Might I suggest that you should STFU about how "it" (for various values
of "it") can't/shouldn't be done, and get your ass out of the way of the
people who *ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING IT* before they run over you
like a gopher on the freeway?

[J. Clarke]

In article <nl91th$ple$1...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...

Yeah, we have the technology, it just seems pointless and prone to
failure. And if the laser is to be the uplink, it has to be on the
ground doing the tracking. If it is to be the downlink then why the
discussion of "submillimeter microwave"?

And then there's the matter of with a large number of these things
flying around with laser communication between them, somebody is going
to have to keep track not only of where they are but also of where the
laser path is so that other aircraft won't fly into it to the detriment
of the vision of their pilots.

> > > As for "why not on a cell tower", too simple: You can't put
> > > something on a cell tower that doesn't exist and/or can't be brought
> > > into existence for any number of reasons.
> >
> > If it doesn't exist and can't be brought into existence then you can't
> > put it on a drone either.
>
> Hello, Captain Argument! The cell tower to put the relay on is what
> doesn't exist. For whatever reason or combination of reasons, it ain't
> there, and ain't likely ever to be there. Thus, the "flying cell tower"
> that's being discussed.

Oh, you should have been more clear.

> > > From what I've heard/read of the plans to date, the "target market" is
> > > remote/inaccessible areas - Villages on the back side of beyond nowhere.
> > > Mountain valleys in Tibet that are so remote and/or inaccessible that
> > > there's almost no such thing as trade or travel with the outside world
> > > that isn't accomplished either on foot or donkey-back. Places in the
> > > Australian Outback that have no other contact due to suffering from
> > > "pick a direction and travel a thousand miles, and you *JUST MIGHT* see
> > > a kangaroo or dying sheep - if you're very, very lucky" syndrome. "Spot
> > > access" for isolated mountain domiciles (Idaho comes to mind) that can't
> > > convince anybody to run a wire to them at any price because although as
> > > the crow flies, it's only 20 miles to town, the up-and-down of the
> > > mountains means the wire needs to be 247 miles long to get there.
> >
> > No, that's a microwave relay on top of a mountain, which should cost
> > about the same as multiple drones and their infrastructure.
>
> With that statement, you demonstrate beyond any question that you have
> next-to-zero knowledge of how microwave relays work. Hint: To avoid
> being dismissed as an idiot, you need to stop talking when the very act
> of opening your mouth gives away the fact that you don't have a clue
> about the subject under discussion.

OK, explain the issue. Microwave is line of sight. If you can see the
mountain you can transmit microwaves to it and recieve them from it. So
where's the issue?

> > > And so
> > > on...
> >
> > If they're talking about bringing cell service to remote locations then
> > why are they making something that won't work with existing cellular
> > equipment?
>
> Idunno, J - You tell me. You're the one with an objection to every
> possibility. Before you do, please engage a brain-cell or two and
> actually THINK about it for a few minutes. If you do that, you JUST
> MIGHT realize how utterly stupid your question is.

In other words you don't have a clue why they would be making that
choice.

> How's that old line go? "Nothing will ever be accomplished if first,
> every possible objection to accomplishing it must be overcome", I think
> gets the gist of it. You're a walking example of an inexhaustible list
> of objections.

And your last words will be "why are you objecting to my walking over
the cliiiiiiiiiii . . .

> Might I suggest that you should STFU about how "it" (for various values
> of "it") can't/shouldn't be done, and get your ass out of the way of the
> people who *ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING IT* before they run over you
> like a gopher on the freeway?

When they have actually done it get back to me.

Making drones fly and transmit and recieve signals is no trick. Getting
licenses to operate such a system commericially and inducing people buy
into the use of them to replace the existing cellcular infrrastructure
is a huge trick.

And getting people to replace existing, working satphones with google
phones in sufficient quantity to pay for google drones is an even huger
trick.

[Cryptoengineer]

"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.31e21c27...@news.eternal-september.org:

> Making drones fly and transmit and recieve signals is no trick.
> Getting licenses to operate such a system commericially and inducing
> people buy into the use of them to replace the existing cellcular
> infrrastructure is a huge trick.
>
> And getting people to replace existing, working satphones with google
> phones in sufficient quantity to pay for google drones is an even
> huger trick.

I agree the regulatory and financial aspects are tricky. But the fact
that Alphabet (Google), Virgin, and Facebook are all investing
significant funds in accomplishing this 'huge trick' indicates that some
very smart people are certain enough of it to back it with money, not
words.

pt

[Greg Goss]

Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:

>> > As for "why not on a cell tower", too simple: You can't put
>> > something on a cell tower that doesn't exist and/or can't be brought
>> > into existence for any number of reasons.
>>
>> If it doesn't exist and can't be brought into existence then you can't
>> put it on a drone either.
>
>Hello, Captain Argument! The cell tower to put the relay on is what
>doesn't exist. For whatever reason or combination of reasons, it ain't
>there, and ain't likely ever to be there. Thus, the "flying cell tower"
>that's being discussed.

I've often wondered why mountain Search and Rescue can't bring a cell
"tower" on a helicopter or low-speed plane. Everyone has a cell phone
these days, but there's no service in those woods. If you BRING
service, then can you just buzz their phone and ask 'em where they
are?

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA639D13842...@216.166.97.131>,
treif...@gmail.com says...

According to the wall street journal article on the Facebook system:

"Aquila, which has the wingspan of a Boeing 737 but weighs only as much
as a car, will be able to fly for three months without landing. It will
project a laser that can transmit data to other aircraft, and a signal
that will be received by small towers and dishes on the ground within 50
kilometers. The antennas will then convert the signal into Wi-Fi or 4G
networks."

So how does that make it better than a conventional microwave relay to
those same towers and dishes?

And I can find no reference at all to Virgin attempting to produce such
a thing. Google is using a Virgin facility for testing, and Virgin is
into looking for creative ways to use drones, but I can find no evidence
of any plan to use them for communication relays.

That very smart people will back research is not news. That doesn't
mean that that research will lead to a practical system that offers
enough benefits over well established conventional technology to gain
signficant market share.

[Cryptoengineer]

"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:MPG.31e2429a6...@news.eternal-september.org:

For Virgin's program, you need to look higher:

http://oneweb.world/

pt

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA639EF3D0B...@216.166.97.131>,

Typical spacies attacking the wrong end of the problem. The ability to
produce satellites is not the bottleneck. Satellites could grown on
trees and it wouldn't help. The cost and delay is in getting them into
orbit, not in manufacturing them.

Of course Virgin has dreams of running a spaceline, but while their
suborbital toy is sitting in the factory being inspected, Spacex is
actually making low cost space flight happen.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 4:45:44 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> OK, explain the issue. Microwave is line of sight. If you can see
> the mountain you can transmit microwaves to it and recieve them from
> it.

The mountain isn't who you want to talk with.

> So where's the issue?

There're two kinds of microwave relay station, passive and active.

A passive relay is basically a mirror for microwaves. It's a big metal sheet on a frame that holds it in position to bounce signals around line-of-sight obstructions. Unfortunately they don't amplify. A little curvature helps but not as much as with light because diffraction effects dominate in microwaves- try to focus a reflector too tightly and you waste signal power in sidelobes. Nice thing about them is that they're broadband. Bad thing about them is that, like conversing in sign language via a mirror, you can only use them along the line where whoever you're talking to is "visible", unlike a cell tower.

Think of it as sort of the opposite of stealth; you want to get as much reflected signal as you can, but physics limits you.

Active relays do amplify but they need need power, just like cell towers. Lots of cell towers have large batteries for emergencies but they depend on wired power for normal operation. Solar panels and batteries for standalone relays (or cell towers) only give you so much. Substitutes for wired power are not cheap.

Also, there's the limitations of the remote transmitter to take into consideration. Cellphones typically put out 1 to 4 watts, like a CB handie-talkie. Your standalone relay has to boost that to get it out to the outside world, and line-of-sight is at best 50 miles, and a cellphone alone can't reach that far much less another 50 miles along the other signal legs. Hence passive relays are out of the question at least for for the remote end.

Getting a POTS line out to rural Idaho, much less the Outback or Tibet is trivial compared to running power there.

With aerial systems the per-leg distance goes up rapidly, eliminating a whole bunch of ground-level relays. Plus the uplink isn't as focused as with a passive relay.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 10:04:58 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> There's something wrong with the story as presented in that article. It
> doesn't give any reason to believe that the technology used would be any
> happier stuck on a drone that it would stuck on a cell tower for
> openers.

I don't know about the technology being happy, but since the frequencies used
for cell phone service, including mobile Internet, are similar to those used in
UHF television broadcasting, radio waves of that frequency propagate by *line
of sight*, unlike AM radio or short wave.

Presumably even a relatively low-flying solar-powered drone could be positioned
as to survey and serve a much larger area than could be served by a single cell
tower of any height it is practical to build.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 10:04:58 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> And it doesn't say how they get the '40 times faster' without
> going to a 40 times higher frequency.

That is one point the article did address, because it said that the drones would
be using a new millimetre-wave technology.

That is shorter than the wavelengths used for cell-phone transmissions.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 5:45:44 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> And getting people to replace existing, working satphones with google
> phones in sufficient quantity to pay for google drones is an even huger
> trick.

Actually, this trick won't have to be done at all.

Google's project is to bring cell phone and Internet access to poor people
living in remote areas. Those people can't afford Iridium phones, and so they
won't have them; these Google phones will be replacing nothing, not satellite
phones that are already working quite well.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 5:45:44 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> OK, explain the issue. Microwave is line of sight. If you can see the
> mountain you can transmit microwaves to it and recieve them from it. So
> where's the issue?

If we're dealing with providing Internet service to poor villagers in Kashmir
or Nepal or some such place, building a *chain* of microwave towers might not
be economic, just as building lots of cell towers in their area might not be
economic.

So it would make fairly obvious sense to do something like this:

Use a flying solar-powered drone.

Put conventional cell-phone relays on it, perhaps with higher power and range.

Connect it to the outside world with a satellite dish. The satellite dish
doesn't need to be on the drone, it could be on the ground, sending a signal to
the drone.

Why the signal from the satellite dish to the drone would be on a laser instead
of on a higher radio frequency is not clear. Why the drone would communicate to
consumers using millimetre waves instead of regular cell phone frequencies is
unclear, particularly as the article notes they needed to use a fancy
phased-array antenna to make that even work.

However, if the village *does* get one cell tower, communicating to 40 or so
cell phones at once by regular cell phone signals, then using a higher
frequency for communications from the drones to the cell towers would now make
sense. Maybe that was what was missing from the article.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 6:12:52 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> However, if the village *does* get one cell tower, communicating to 40 or so
> cell phones at once by regular cell phone signals, then using a higher
> frequency for communications from the drones to the cell towers would now make
> sense. Maybe that was what was missing from the article.

And if cell towers on the ground are *not* involved, this could still lead to a
rationale for the use of a higher frequency. Because of the large foodprint of
the service area of a drone, putting a lot of cell tower style transmitters on
it might make it too heavy - and using a limited number of faster channels at a
higher frequency, and having the consumer handsets do some *time-division
multiplexing* instead of relying solely on using a different frequency for each
one in use might be what is needed to make the thing work.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

In article <9983911c-d2fb-4a7e...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

Uh, the whole point of cell towers is that they serve a limited area.
That means that large numbers of users can be supported on a limited
number of frequencies. The drone can cover a wider geographical area
but that only works if there are about as many users in that area as in
one segment of the area covered by a cell tower.

Will that be enough traffic to pay for the drone and its infrastructure?

[J. Clarke]

In article <780c8894-636f-48ed...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

They stated the frequency. It is not 40 times higher than used for
cell-phone transmissions.

[J. Clarke]

In article <300b98be-1aa5-4d65...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

Will they actually be cheaper than satphones though?

[J. Clarke]

In article <3e1bfdb8-9818-4158...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

So you end up needing the cell tower anyway.

And why do you need this fancy drone? Bidirectional satellite to a
fixed location costs 40 bucks a month.

[J. Clarke]

In article <6aed331f-fcd7-4652...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

And so you have these fancy new handsets that are only useful in rural
areas served by your drones and you're back to Iridium. The cost of the
handsets for satphones is not high because there's something magic about
satellites, it's high because the production volume is so low.

Meanwhile the cost of orbiting a satellite is about to plummet.

[Cryptoengineer]

"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:MPG.31e2d90e7...@news.eternal-september.org:

Did you actually read the Virgin proposal? Branson wants to orbit
a constellation of low earth orbit satellites which communicate with
small base stations, which in turn supply LTE (and 3g and wifi)
coverage with about 200m range. This uses standard handsets.

One base station per village/farm is meant to be plausibly affordable.

http://oneweb.world/

pt

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA63A75A691...@216.166.97.131>,
treif...@gmail.com says...

What does that have to do with drones?

[Peter Trei]

The topic is supplying voice and data connections to remote locations. Drones,
microwave relays, and satellites are all candidate technologies under discussion in this thread.