Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
Michael Stemper
>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>
>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
A bad day sailing is better than a good day at the office.
Bill Snyder
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <oejbg5tm1153fsaa7...@news.eternal-september.org>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
>>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>>
>>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>
>Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
He has a working-class accent, veddy veddy non-U.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Kurt Busiek
Stemper) said:
> In article
> <oejbg5tm1153fsaa7...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>> On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>> True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
>>> proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>>
>> I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>
> Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
> born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
It's the equivalent of saying Danny deVito sounds so proper and dignified.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Don Freeman
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
"What's a yeut?"
I don't see why they never followed up on that movie..
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Don Freeman
Seeing on how sequels usually turn out maybe it's a good thing. But then
again, Marisa Tomei, mmmmmmm.
--
-Don
R H Draney
So does Larry the Cable Guy, for a slightly different reason....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Strobe
Stemper) wrote:
>In article <oejbg5tm1153fsaa7...@news.eternal-september.org>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine sounds so
>>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>>
>>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>
>Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
Indeed he is.
But to another Brit, his accent is not exactly 'proper and dignified'.
As the great man (nearly) said "An Englishman can't open his mouth without
having some other Brit despise him".
Michael Stemper
De Vito works better, since I know who he is.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
Don Aitken
wrote:
If you want the original wording, it is in the Preface to Pygmalion
(not in the play, although the screenwriters of "My Fair Lady" used a
variant of it).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Lon
More like honoring Sly Stallone with a special Oscar for being a model
of proper speech.
Lon
> In article <4b06ed59$0$1668$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> writes:
>> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>> On 2009-11-20 10:57:05 -0800, mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) said:
>
>>>> Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>>>> born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
>>> It's the equivalent of saying Danny deVito sounds so proper and dignified.
>> I was thinking Joe Pesci but DeVito works too.
>
> De Vito works better, since I know who he is.
>
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I don't know him offhand myself. I thought at first I might, but I
realized I was thinking of Joe Piscopo.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Kurt Busiek
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
We can pretty well guarantee that Dorothy doesn't know who he is, at least:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ff46b58Hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q7mjoxHzm4
Dorothy J Heydt
But that's a *British* working-class accent, no? Can your basic
Brit distinguish a New England (fairly posh) accent from a
Brooklyn (urban low-class) accent from a Dixie (Southeastern US,
assumed to be rural low-class even if the guy's got millions and
a Ph.D) accent?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Dorothy J Heydt
>On 2009-11-21 13:28:10 -0800, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
><sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
>
>> Lon wrote:
>>> Michael Stemper wrote:
>>>> In article <4b06ed59$0$1668$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Don Freeman
>>>> <free...@cosmoslair.com> writes:
>>>>> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>>>>> On 2009-11-20 10:57:05 -0800, mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael
>>>>>> Stemper) said:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>>>>>>> born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
>>>>>> It's the equivalent of saying Danny deVito sounds so proper and dignified.
>>>>> I was thinking Joe Pesci but DeVito works too.
>>>>
>>>> De Vito works better, since I know who he is.
>>>>
>>> ? Never seen Joe "you think I'm funny" Pesci ?
>>
>> I don't know him offhand myself. I thought at first I might, but I
>> realized I was thinking of Joe Piscopo.
>
>We can pretty well guarantee that Dorothy doesn't know who he is, at least:
Coming late to this discussion, because I've been out of town
since Thursday afternoon:
Nope, I've never heard of either one of them. DeVito I'm not
sure: was he in _Romancing the Stone_? Or was that somebody
else?
Kurt Busiek
That was DeVito.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <kdqdg5hq73drh8ppi...@4ax.com>,
>Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:57:05 +0000 (UTC),
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>
>>>In article
>><oejbg5tm1153fsaa7...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>>>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>True story, American woman gushing: "ooh, I just think Michael Caine
>>sounds so
>>>>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>>>>
>>>>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>>>
>>>Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>>>born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
>>
>>He has a working-class accent, veddy veddy non-U.
>
>But that's a *British* working-class accent, no?
Yes.
> Can your basic
>Brit distinguish a New England (fairly posh) accent from a
>Brooklyn (urban low-class) accent from a Dixie (Southeastern US,
>assumed to be rural low-class even if the guy's got millions and
>a Ph.D) accent?
I have no idea -- but do you think Americans wouldn't find it funny to
hear Brits raving about how classy a Bronx accent sounds?
Also, in the U.S. accents are less tied to class than in Britain.
Caine's natural accent is VERY lower class. Even if it's perfectly
reasonable for Americans to not recognize that, it's still funny to
Brits.
Incidentally, something like this happens with Japanese stuff
sometimes -- accents are very significant class markers in Japan, so
English-speakers often miss a lot of cues in anime and other Japanese
movies that native Japanese pick up. There are also gender
differences in Japanese pronunciation, and one feature of the anime
series "Ranma 1/2" that's funny in the original but completely missing
in translation is that even when he's turned into a girl, Ranma talks
like a lower-class male -- a redneck, basically. When he's pretending
to be a full-time female he puts on an exaggerated feminine accent --
but it's still lower-class.
American fans mostly miss this entirely; the dubbed videos make at
least some attempt to convey it, but we just don't have the same
distinctions, so it mostly doesn't work. In the subtitled versions
they don't even try.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Walter Bushell
<pbkpg5p06adpkm3tf...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
I am reminded of an acquaintance who said the Japanese were always
giggling. He didn't realize the joke was on him. He was probably making
effeminate gestures or crude gestures all the time and had no insight.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Dorothy J Heydt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
Probably.
There's always Asimov's anecdote about the German girls who
wanted him to speak German to them (though their English was much
better than his German) "because you have the most romantic
Hungarian accent." I never heard Asimov speak German, but his
English was definitely NYawk.
>Also, in the U.S. accents are less tied to class than in Britain.
So I'm told. Every time I try to comprehend class in Britain I
fail spectacularly, and somebody says "No, it's not like that,"
and somebody else says "No, but it's mostly gone now," and
somebody else says "Oh no it isn't!"
>Caine's natural accent is VERY lower class. Even if it's perfectly
>reasonable for Americans to not recognize that, it's still funny to
>Brits.
>
>Incidentally, something like this happens with Japanese stuff
>sometimes -- accents are very significant class markers in Japan, so
>English-speakers often miss a lot of cues in anime and other Japanese
>movies that native Japanese pick up. There are also gender
>differences in Japanese pronunciation, and one feature of the anime
>series "Ranma 1/2" that's funny in the original but completely missing
>in translation is that even when he's turned into a girl, Ranma talks
>like a lower-class male -- a redneck, basically. When he's pretending
>to be a full-time female he puts on an exaggerated feminine accent --
>but it's still lower-class.
Oh dear. Yes, it would be very hard to translate that into
English. It's not that we have *no* class distinctions, but
they're soft and squishy and have very permeable boundaries.
Class distinctions (as distinguished from monetary or racial) are
made mostly by those who consider themselves to be old money, or
at least old families who used to have money.
E.g., when Jacqueline Bouvier (old rich) became engaged to marry
John Kennedy (new rich), some old lady was heard to remark to a
friend, "But, my dear! the Kennedys aren't anybody!"
>
>American fans mostly miss this entirely; the dubbed videos make at
>least some attempt to convey it, but we just don't have the same
>distinctions, so it mostly doesn't work. In the subtitled versions
>they don't even try.
I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a
low-status accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be
ludicrous, because the audience *knows* he's supposed to be
Japanese.
When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common." I don't
know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist but I've
never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
Howard Brazee
Heydt) wrote:
>I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a
>low-status accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be
>ludicrous, because the audience *knows* he's supposed to be
>Japanese.
Lots of people complained about Sean Connery's accent in _The Hunt for
Red October_, mainly because they recognized it.
But I thought it was perfect. They were speaking Russian (in
English), and his character was Lithuanian. Having a Scotsman in
that role was very appropriate.
>When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
>radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
>she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
>characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
>instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
>other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
>the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common." I don't
>know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist but I've
>never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
It is common in movies such as _Sparticus_, to cast Brits as Romans,
and Americans as slaves.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
cryptoguy
> In article <pbkpg5p06adpkm3tfug526khh36t2dh...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:10:26 GMT, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >Heydt) wrote:
>
> >>In article <kdqdg5hq73drh8ppiqsrjnahsbsek4h...@4ax.com>,
> >>Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >>>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:57:05 +0000 (UTC),
> >>>mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >>>>In article
> >>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
"So this is good old Boston. The home of the bean and the cod.
Where the Lowells talk only to the Cabots. And the Cabots talk only to
God." - Richard Clarke Cabot 1868-1939
[...]
> When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
> radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
> she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
> characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
> instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
> other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
> the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common." I don't
> know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist but I've
> never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
Cf Shylock.
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:36:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a
>>low-status accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be
>>ludicrous, because the audience *knows* he's supposed to be
>>Japanese.
>
>Lots of people complained about Sean Connery's accent in _The Hunt for
>Red October_, mainly because they recognized it.
>
>But I thought it was perfect. They were speaking Russian (in
>English), and his character was Lithuanian. Having a Scotsman in
>that role was very appropriate.
O-o-o-o-kay. Note that Connery *can* speak perfectly good
English English, when he cares to. (But of course nowadays he's
Really Famous and doesn't have to.) Then there's John Hannah,
who can do the same, but offscreen he has a Glaswegian accent you
could cut with a knife.
(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
>>When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
>>radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to Be King,_
>>she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
>>characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
>>instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
>>other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
>>the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common." I don't
>>know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist but I've
>>never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
>
>It is common in movies such as _Sparticus_, to cast Brits as Romans,
>and Americans as slaves.
Hm. Does this vary with the nationality of the director?
Now, if I were casting _The Man Born to Be King_, I'd cast the
Galileans with Highland accents, the southern Judeans with
Edinburgh, the Sanhedrim with RP, and the Romans with American.
Dorothy J Heydt
Note that she specifically said *not* to.
Warren Oates
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> (And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
> American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
And Tim Roth, who actually played Charlie Starkweather, about as badass
an American as you can get, in one of the best made-for-teevee movies
I've ever seen. Wish they'd show it again. Randy Quaid was in it too.
I had a crush on Sissy Spacek for 25 years after Badlands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Starkweather
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107619/
--
Suddenly he realized that he was alone
with a giant halfwit on a dark deserted street.
-- Chester Himes
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Heydt) wrote:
>(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
>American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
perfect.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>>(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
>>American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
>
>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>perfect.
Are there any Brits with multiple good American accents?
Vivien Leigh's most famous role is as a southerner.
I've read that Robert Mitchum could do multiple British accents
(unrecognized by most USAmericans).
I expect there are multiple Australian accents - but I wouldn't be
able to recognize them. I can't even tell Oz and Kiwi accents
apart.
R H Draney
>
>I expect there are multiple Australian accents - but I wouldn't be
>able to recognize them. I can't even tell Oz and Kiwi accents
>apart.
We once had two contractors from New Zealand join our office at the same
time...one talked posh, the other not so much....r
Canth
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:06:19 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
>>>American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
>>
>>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>>perfect.
>
>
>Are there any Brits with multiple good American accents?
>
>Vivien Leigh's most famous role is as a southerner.
>
>I've read that Robert Mitchum could do multiple British accents
>(unrecognized by most USAmericans).
>
>I expect there are multiple Australian accents - but I wouldn't be
>able to recognize them. I can't even tell Oz and Kiwi accents
>apart.
There isn't much regional variation in Australia; mass communication
came along and homogenised them before any real variation could get
established. There are some local word usage variances, but mostly on
obscure words not generally in use. The word with which most care
must be taken is "Football". Before engaging in any conversation on
this religion, find out which of the five codes is under discussion.
The New Zealand accent has developed a quite distinct vowel shift on
most words. The best tests are supposedly six and fish & chips. If
they come out sux and fush & chups, you've got a kiwi.
AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
Keith F. Lynch
> I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a low-status
> accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be ludicrous, because the
> audience *knows* he's supposed to be Japanese.
Indeed. Fictional characters should either speak their own language
or speak English with their own language's accent.
A movie set in 1930s Germany in which the low class Germans who were
attracted to the Nazi party spoke with a Cockney accent just didn't
work for me. Neither did an Italian production of _We the Living_,
since the "Russians" were of course all speaking Italian.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Dorothy J Heydt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:27:41 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
>>American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
>
>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>perfect.
Perhaps you and I speak slightly different dialects of American
English? I've lived in California my whole life; you, I think,
are from the South or East? Maybe if we had the opportunity to
speak together, you'd find my Rs sightly off too. We shall
probably never know. I can only say that Hoskins fooled *me*; he
sounded, to me, like a Californian. Which was appropriate to the
role.
David Goldfarb
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>>perfect.
>
>Perhaps you and I speak slightly different dialects of American
>English? I've lived in California my whole life; you, I think,
>are from the South or East? Maybe if we had the opportunity to
>speak together, you'd find my Rs sightly off too. We shall
>probably never know. I can only say that Hoskins fooled *me*; he
>sounded, to me, like a Californian. Which was appropriate to the
>role.
I presume Dorothy is talking about _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_, and
I agree with her: I had no suspicion that Hoskins wasn't American.
Dorothy may never talk with Lawrence, but I too have lived in California
my whole life (except for the last six months), and I've talked with
Lawrence, during his kaffeeklatsch at the Denver Worldcon. Perhaps
that might give us some idea.
--
David Goldfarb |"I'm sorry officer, but ever since I started
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | wearing the Wonderbra I've been inexplicably
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | drawn around town preventing crimes."
| -- Bizarro
Dorothy J Heydt
David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <Ktp0p...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <ue3rg5pjgnhchv6r5...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>>>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>>>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>>>perfect.
>>
>>Perhaps you and I speak slightly different dialects of American
>>English? I've lived in California my whole life; you, I think,
>>are from the South or East? Maybe if we had the opportunity to
>>speak together, you'd find my Rs sightly off too. We shall
>>probably never know. I can only say that Hoskins fooled *me*; he
>>sounded, to me, like a Californian. Which was appropriate to the
>>role.
>
>I presume Dorothy is talking about _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_, and
Yes.
>I agree with her: I had no suspicion that Hoskins wasn't American.
Well, I *knew* because I'd read it somewhere, but I certainly
couldn't've figured it out from his speech.
>Dorothy may never talk with Lawrence, but I too have lived in California
>my whole life (except for the last six months), and I've talked with
>Lawrence, during his kaffeeklatsch at the Denver Worldcon. Perhaps
>that might give us some idea.
Well? Can you make any shrewd guesses? What did his accent
sound like to you?
ppint. at home
djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" observed:>>> Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
- and all three are right.
>
>>Caine's natural accent is VERY lower class. Even if it's perfectly
>>reasonable for Americans to not recognize that, it's still funny to
>>Brits.
>>
>>Incidentally, something like this happens with Japanese stuff
>>sometimes -- accents are very significant class markers in Japan, so
>>English-speakers often miss a lot of cues in anime and other Japanese
>>movies that native Japanese pick up. There are also gender
>>differences in Japanese pronunciation, and one feature of the anime
>>series "Ranma 1/2" that's funny in the original but completely missing
>>in translation is that even when he's turned into a girl, Ranma talks
>>like a lower-class male -- a redneck, basically. When he's pretending
>>to be a full-time female he puts on an exaggerated feminine accent --
>>but it's still lower-class.
>
>Oh dear. Yes, it would be very hard to translate that into English.
- especially as, absent any other, and over-riding, cue,
"male, with exaggerated feminine manners" = camp homo-
sexual, gay adopting the traditional role of the woman
in stereotypical "straight" couple's relationships...
(an awful lot of younger guys completely ignore the old
stereotypical gender roles. save perhaps for fun occas-
ional theme discos, when trying to be outrageous, maybe,
or to take the piss out of a friend...) (etc.)
>It's not that we have *no* class distinctions, but they're soft and
>squishy and have very permeable boundaries. Class distinctions (as
>distinguished from monetary or racial) are made mostly by those who
>consider themselves to be old money, or at least old families who
>used to have money.
- those distinctions may indicate real differences in
power, nevertheless.
>
>E.g., when Jacqueline Bouvier (old rich) became engaged to marry
>John Kennedy (new rich), some old lady was heard to remark to a
>friend, "But, my dear! the Kennedys aren't anybody!"
- *g*
>
>>American fans mostly miss this entirely; the dubbed videos make at
>>least some attempt to convey it, but we just don't have the same
>>distinctions, so it mostly doesn't work. In the subtitled versions
>>they don't even try.
>
>I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a low-status
>accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be ludicrous, because the
>audience *knows* he's supposed to be Japanese.
>
>When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
>radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
>she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
>characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
>instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
>other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
>the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common."
- is the interpolated comment yours, or hers? (i know
you've not dropped it out from the quotation marks, but
i don't know if you'd use the double dash to separate
out your thoughts en passant.)
- a long time ago now - way back in the 1960s - i was
quite upset to discover chesterton dropping totally
gratuitous anti-semitic imagery of jews, utterly un-
self-consciously into his poetry, quite without - so
far as i could tell - any malicious intent. it seems
to've been so common, in educated circles, that it
was evidently completely unremarkable.
>I don't know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist
>but I've never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
>
- love, a ppint. woken up by the return of heavy rain
(with possible light hail mixed in) against the west-
facing bedroom window; there's been exceptional rain-
fall, here in the english north-wet this last week...
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email/cc.]
--
"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox -
the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable."
_A Woman of No Importance_ - oscar wilde, 1893
R H Draney
>
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> I don't see how one could pull that off. To give Ranma a low-status
>> accent -- Texas, maybe, or Dixie -- would be ludicrous, because the
>> audience *knows* he's supposed to be Japanese.
>
>Indeed. Fictional characters should either speak their own language
>or speak English with their own language's accent.
>
>A movie set in 1930s Germany in which the low class Germans who were
>attracted to the Nazi party spoke with a Cockney accent just didn't
>work for me. Neither did an Italian production of _We the Living_,
>since the "Russians" were of course all speaking Italian.
In Donizetti's opera "Emilia di Liverpool", a comic relief character speaks (or
rather sings) with a Tuscan accent, that apparently being the Italian version of
Scouse....r
David Goldfarb
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <Ktp1...@kithrup.com>,
>David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>Dorothy may never talk with Lawrence, but I too have lived in California
>>my whole life (except for the last six months), and I've talked with
>>Lawrence, during his kaffeeklatsch at the Denver Worldcon. Perhaps
>>that might give us some idea.
>
>Well? Can you make any shrewd guesses? What did his accent
>sound like to you?
It sounded like a fairly generic American accent to me; I don't have
a terribly good ear for such things. Anyway, the question is more
how my accent sounded to him.
--
David Goldfarb |"Sunset over Houma. The rains have stopped.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Clouds like plugs of bloodied cotton wool dab
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | ineffectually at the slashed wrists of the sky."
| -- Alan Moore
Dorothy J Heydt
ppint. at home <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> - hi; in article, <Kto8o...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" observed:
>>So I'm told. Every time I try to comprehend class in Britain I
>>fail spectacularly, and somebody says "No, it's not like that,"
>>and somebody else says "No, but it's mostly gone now," and
>>somebody else says "Oh no it isn't!"
>
> - and all three are right.
You see what I mean? Incomprehensible!
>
>
>>When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
>>radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
>>she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
>>characters are going to have. Matthew the moneylender, for
>>instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
>>other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
>>the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common."
>
> - is the interpolated comment yours, or hers? (i know
> you've not dropped it out from the quotation marks, but
> i don't know if you'd use the double dash to separate
> out your thoughts en passant.)
The text between dashes is Sayers's.
>
> - a long time ago now - way back in the 1960s - i was
> quite upset to discover chesterton dropping totally
> gratuitous anti-semitic imagery of jews, utterly un-
> self-consciously into his poetry, quite without - so
> far as i could tell - any malicious intent. it seems
> to've been so common, in educated circles, that it
> was evidently completely unremarkable.
It was. Sayers also uses various figures of Jews in a way we
would certainly consider not flattering, and yet when she has to
deal with Jews as active characters, she treats them very
sympathetically. Her attitude toward them could be summed as
"very different, rather strange, and of course it's a pity they
aren't Christians, but good people all the same."
>
> - love, a ppint. woken up by the return of heavy rain
> (with possible light hail mixed in) against the west-
> facing bedroom window; there's been exceptional rain-
> fall, here in the english north-wet this last week...
Oh, how nice. We've had a little rain on the west coast of the
US in the last week, but not nearly enough.
Jim Lovejoy
> Oh, how nice. We've had a little rain on the west coast of the
> US in the last week, but not nearly enough.
>
I beg to differ.
The 'Californian' west coast may not have had nearly enough, but because
Oregon and Washington got much more than enough, almost 7 inches this month
in Tacoma, and the coast got much more.
If I could I'd gladly share some with you.
Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I was in Portland over the weekend, and yes, you got a
nice chunk of rain there. After a long dry summer/fall in
California, it was positively refreshing (of course, we were
staying on a hill where the danger was not flooding, but slippage
of wheels on pavement every time we left the house). I wish it
could have been evenly distributed; then you would have had less
flooding and we would have had perkier plant life this week.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Walter Bushell
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> Actually, I was in Portland over the weekend, and yes, you got a
> nice chunk of rain there. After a long dry summer/fall in
> California, it was positively refreshing (of course, we were
> staying on a hill where the danger was not flooding, but slippage
> of wheels on pavement every time we left the house). I wish it
> could have been evenly distributed; then you would have had less
> flooding and we would have had perkier plant life this week.
Actually there have been proposals to ship the water from the
Northwestern coast and pipe it to Southern California. Even from Canada.
But if people choose to live in a dessert they should be require to
recycle.
Bill Snyder
Even if it's part of their just desserts?
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Dorothy J Heydt
Kurt Busiek
> Jim Lovejoy <nos...@devnull.spam> wrote:
> >djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> > news:KtpJ1...@kithrup.com:
> >
> >> Oh, how nice. We've had a little rain on the west coast of the
> >> US in the last week, but not nearly enough.
> >>
> >I beg to differ.
> >
> >The 'Californian' west coast may not have had nearly enough, but
> > because
> >Oregon and Washington got much more than enough, almost 7 inches this
> > month
> >in Tacoma, and the coast got much more.
>
> Actually, I was in Portland over the weekend, and yes, you got a
> nice chunk of rain there.
Getting more right now.
kdb
--
http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Dorothy J Heydt
We may get some more tomorrow ... at least, so the weatherbeing
claims.
ppint. at home
djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" confided: [of the exceptional rain here in the english north-wet]:
>>
>>>Oh, how nice. We've had a little rain on the west coast of the
>>>US in the last week, but not nearly enough.
>>>
>>I beg to differ.
>>
>>The 'Californian' west coast may not have had nearly enough, but because
>>Oregon and Washington got much more than enough, almost 7 inches this month
>>in Tacoma, and the coast got much more.
>
>Actually, I was in Portland over the weekend, and yes, you got a
>nice chunk of rain there. After a long dry summer/fall in
>California, it was positively refreshing (of course, we were
>staying on a hill where the danger was not flooding, but slippage
>of wheels on pavement every time we left the house). I wish it
>could have been evenly distributed; then you would have had less
>flooding and we would have had perkier plant life this week.
>
a bit over 1' of water (c. 32 cm) in 24 hours over last
thursday-friday. and it's continued raining, on and off;
and there's been another wodge of water this week, c. 4"
in one go - and it's gone on raining, on and off, since.
- that's rain, as in centuries-old stone bridges on major
roads now barred from use, and one swept away (together
with the policeman who was directing traffic away, bill
barker). that's rain, as in burneside, nr. kendal, and
keswick, and cockermouth, and workington centres flooded
to a significant extent. see threads concerning the same
on uk.local.cumbria, including links to some folks' photos
and stories+photos on bbc.co.uk.
- there's also been flooding in parts of wales, with iirc
three or more dead; but i know much less about this.
- love, a ppint. relatively unaffected by innundation
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email/cc.]
--
"Earth occupies about one-half a degree in two dimensions."
- trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
Strobe
wrote:
Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
Mike Ash
Jim Lovejoy <nos...@devnull.spam> wrote:
My mother does this sort of thing a lot. She'll talk about how much rain
she's had lately (in Florida) and ask if I've seen the same thing (in
Virginia) with the expectation that we should be getting the same
weather because we're on the same coast. I've never understood how that
works.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Lizz Holmans
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:55:57 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
>>Cf Shylock.
>
>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
And only legally re-admitted by that greatly-proclaimed Christian, the
Right but Repulsive Oliver Cromwell.
Lizz 'does posthumous decapitation hurt?' Holmans
--
I stayed up late to hear your voice.
Dorothy J Heydt
If he had met one, he was probably Scottish. (That's where a lot
of them went.)
R H Draney
Forgive me, but I'm not up on the Bard's comings and goings as I'm sure a lot of
people are...did he ever travel abroad?...say to Spain or Italy?...r
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <ue3rg5pjgnhchv6r5...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:27:41 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>(And there's always Hugh Laurie, whose American accent fooled an
>>>American director. And Bob Hoskins.)
>>
>>Hugh Laurie, yes, but Bob Hoskins, there's still something very
>>slightly off in how he pronounces R's. I mean, he does a better
>>American accent than I can do English, no question, but it's not
>>perfect.
>
>Perhaps you and I speak slightly different dialects of American
>English? I've lived in California my whole life; you, I think,
>are from the South or East?
Grew up in Massachusetts, have lived in Connecticut, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and (for a long time now) Maryland. Have
visited thirty-eight of the fifty states.
> Maybe if we had the opportunity to
>speak together, you'd find my Rs sightly off too. We shall
>probably never know. I can only say that Hoskins fooled *me*; he
>sounded, to me, like a Californian. Which was appropriate to the
>role.
I've never heard a Californian half-swallow R's like that.
It's subtle, I admit.
James
> In article <VvmdnaTZI5agb5PWnZ2dnUVZ_oGdn...@nventure.com>,
> Jim Lovejoy <nos...@devnull.spam> wrote:
>
> > djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote innews:KtpJ1...@kithrup.com:
>
> > > Oh, how nice. We've had a little rain on the west coast of the
> > > US in the last week, but not nearly enough.
>
> > I beg to differ.
>
> > The 'Californian' west coast may not have had nearly enough, but because
> > Oregon and Washington got much more than enough, almost 7 inches this month
> > in Tacoma, and the coast got much more.
>
> > If I could I'd gladly share some with you.
>
> My mother does this sort of thing a lot. She'll talk about how much rain
> she's had lately (in Florida) and ask if I've seen the same thing (in
> Virginia) with the expectation that we should be getting the same
> weather because we're on the same coast. I've never understood how that
> works.
I've friends in the Maritimes of Canada (east coast), and during
hurricane season, its a constant vigil for them. Some hurricanes hit
Florida or Louisiana and later on end up hitting the maritimes,
usually as tropical storms. Its generally a 2/3 day lag. Others vear
off into the Atlantic and have no impact.
James
Dorothy J Heydt
Must be.
I should haul out my disk of WFRR and see if I notice anything
bizarre about Hoskins's (or rather, Eddie Valiant's) treatment of
that slippery eel, the phoneme /r/.
Dorothy J Heydt
>>
>>In article <2saug5t8t6p8p00h2...@4ax.com>,
>>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly
>met a Jew.
>>>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>>
>>If he had met one, he was probably Scottish. (That's where a lot
>>of them went.)
>
>Forgive me, but I'm not up on the Bard's comings and goings as I'm sure a lot of
>people are...did he ever travel abroad?...say to Spain or Italy?...r
To the best of my knowledge, no. He came from rural Warwickshire
and the furthest abroad he got was London.
Kurt Busiek
I thought Hoskins' accent in ROGER RABBIT wasn't wrong, per se, it was
just too deliberate. It didn't sound casual, like that was simply the
way he talks, it sounded like he was very deliberately and carefully
talking that way.
The sounds were fine, the enunciation of those sounds felt forced, at
least to me.
I grew up a town away from Lawrence, but aside from time spent in New
Jersey and Connecticut, have not duplicated his peregrinations. For
whatever that's worth.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Andrew Woode
> In article <hent7j01...@drn.newsguy.com>,> >>In article <2saug5t8t6p8p00h24hukam137ghqdu...@4ax.com>,
> >>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
>
> >>>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly
> >met a Jew.
> >>>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>
> >>If he had met one, he was probably Scottish. (That's where a lot
> >>of them went.)
>
> >Forgive me, but I'm not up on the Bard's comings and goings as I'm sure a lot of
> >people are...did he ever travel abroad?...say to Spain or Italy?...r
>
> To the best of my knowledge, no. He came from rural Warwickshire
> and the furthest abroad he got was London.
>
That's all the documentary evidence available tells us,
but there are substantial gaps in our knowledge of his life, and
English actors are known
to have travelled to Continental Europe in some numbers (despite the
linguistic issues;
performing in English abroad would have been entirely pointless in
those days). He seems to
be fairly well-informed about Northern Italy; in my family we used to
refer to the
A4 Autostrada as 'Shakespeare's Motorway' since it connects a lot of
the cities appearing in
his plays (including e.g. Venice and Verona).
Hatunen
wrote:
>I thought Hoskins' accent in ROGER RABBIT wasn't wrong, per se, it was
>just too deliberate. It didn't sound casual, like that was simply the
>way he talks, it sounded like he was very deliberately and carefully
>talking that way.
>
>The sounds were fine, the enunciation of those sounds felt forced, at
>least to me.
I've known people who talk that way naturally.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Keith F. Lynch
> I've friends in the Maritimes of Canada (east coast), and during
> hurricane season, its a constant vigil for them. Some hurricanes
> hit Florida or Louisiana and later on end up hitting the maritimes,
> usually as tropical storms. Its generally a 2/3 day lag.
I trust you mean a two- to three-day lag, not a lag of two-thirds of a
single day.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> "Earth occupies about one-half a degree in two dimensions."
As seen from what distance? Anyhow, a degree is a unit of angle (one
dimensional), not of solid angle (two dimensional).
> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
ppint. at home
k...@KeithLynch.net "Keith F. Lynch" noted:
> ppint. at home wrote:
>> --
>> "Earth occupies about one-half a degree in two dimensions."
>
>As seen from what distance? Anyhow, a degree is a unit of angle (one
>dimensional), not of solid angle (two dimensional).
- indeed;
>
>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>
>I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
- lol! - no, indeed, merkia isn't *that* far behind the uk.
.sig file at home corrected.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email/cc.]
--
"Incipient Doldrums."
- roger thomas, 19/3/97 (3/19/97 for merkins)
Strobe
wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:35:06 -0500, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:55:57 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
>>>Cf Shylock.
>>
>>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
>>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
What I find intriguing is that negative stereotypes of Jews could persist for
hundreds of years in a country without Jews.
Another aspect is that without much scene-setting he happily expected his
audience to relate to foreign places like Denmark, Ephesus, Scotland, Syracuse,
Venice and Verona - can modern playwrights (or authors) do the same?
>
>And only legally re-admitted by that greatly-proclaimed Christian, the
>Right but Repulsive Oliver Cromwell.
For certain values of 'legally re-admitted'. Ollie expected quid pro quo - and
the legality didn't last all that long.
Strobe
>In article <2saug5t8t6p8p00h2...@4ax.com>,
>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:55:57 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 25, 10:36Â am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>> In article <pbkpg5p06adpkm3tfug526khh36t2dh...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> Lawrence Watt-Evans  <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:10:26 GMT, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>> >Heydt) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>In article <kdqdg5hq73drh8ppiqsrjnahsbsek4h...@4ax.com>,
>>>> >>Bill Snyder  <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:57:05 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> >>>mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>>>In article
>>>> >>><oejbg5tm1153fsaa79qega1qgahlobo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> >>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>>> >>>>>On 19 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>True story, American woman gushing: Â "ooh, I just think Michael Caine
>>>> >>>sounds so
>>>> >>>>>>proper and dignified with that British accent of his!"
>>>>
>>>> >>>>>I hope you realize that lots of Americans won't see why that's funny.
>>>>
>>>> >>>>Like me, for instance. According to wikipedia, he *is* British. He was
>>>> >>>>born in London, he's Sir Michael, he has some initials afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> >>>He has a working-class accent, veddy veddy non-U.
>>>>
>>>> >>But that's a *British* working-class accent, no?
>>>>
>>>> >Yes.
>>>>
>>>> >> Can your basic
>>>> >>Brit distinguish a New England (fairly posh) accent from a
>>>> >>Brooklyn (urban low-class) accent from a Dixie (Southeastern US,
>>>> >>assumed to be rural low-class even if the guy's got millions and
>>>> >>a Ph.D) accent?
>>>>
>>>> >I have no idea -- but do you think Americans wouldn't find it funny to
>>>> >hear Brits raving about how classy a Bronx accent sounds?
>>>>
>>>> Probably.
>>>>
>>>> There's always Asimov's anecdote about the German girls who
>>>> wanted him to speak German to them (though their English was much
>>>> better than his German) "because you have the most romantic
>>>> Hungarian accent." Â I never heard Asimov speak German, but his
>>>> English was definitely NYawk.
>>>>
>>>> >Also, in the U.S. accents are less tied to class than in Britain.
>>>>
>>>> So I'm told. Â Every time I try to comprehend class in Britain I
>>>> fail spectacularly, and somebody says "No, it's not like that,"
>>>> and somebody else says "No, but it's mostly gone now," and
>>>> somebody else says "Oh no it isn't!"
>>>>
>>>> >Caine's natural accent is VERY lower class. Â Even if it's perfectly
>>>> >reasonable for Americans to not recognize that, it's still funny to
>>>> >Brits.
>>>>
>>>> >Incidentally, something like this happens with Japanese stuff
>>>> >sometimes -- accents are very significant class markers in Japan, so
>>>> >English-speakers often miss a lot of cues in anime and other Japanese
>>>> >movies that native Japanese pick up. Â There are also gender
>>>> >differences in Japanese pronunciation, and one feature of the anime
>>>> >series "Ranma 1/2" that's funny in the original but completely missing
>>>> >in translation is that even when he's turned into a girl, Ranma talks
>>>> >like a lower-class male -- a redneck, basically. Â When he's pretending
>>>> >to be a full-time female he puts on an exaggerated feminine accent --
>>>> >but it's still lower-class.
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear. Â Yes, it would be very hard to translate that into
>>>> English. Â It's not that we have *no* class distinctions, but
>>>> they're soft and squishy and have very permeable boundaries.
>>>> Class distinctions (as distinguished from monetary or racial) are
>>>> made mostly by those who consider themselves to be old money, or
>>>> at least old families who used to have money.
>>>>
>>>> E.g., when Jacqueline Bouvier (old rich) became engaged to marry
>>>> John Kennedy (new rich), some old lady was heard to remark to a
>>>> friend, "But, my dear! the Kennedys aren't anybody!"
>>>
>>>"So this is good old Boston. The home of the bean and the cod.
>>>Where the Lowells talk only to the Cabots. And the Cabots talk only to
>>>God." - Richard Clarke Cabot 1868-1939
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>> When Dorothy L. Sayers was readying for broadcast her series of
>>>> radio dramas on the life of Christ, _The Man Born to be King,_
>>>> she wrote intensive notes on what kinds of accents the various
>>>> characters are going to have. Â Matthew the moneylender, for
>>>> instance, was supposed to have a somewhat "lower" accent than the
>>>> other disciples, and she specifies, "Not a Jewish accent -- as if
>>>> the others were not Jews -- but just townee and common." Â I don't
>>>> know how it came off; recordings of the broadcasts exist but I've
>>>> never heard them, only read the scripts with their notes.
>>>
>>>Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
>>>Cf Shylock.
>>
>>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
>>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>
>If he had met one, he was probably Scottish.
But even a Scottish Jew in the England of Shakespeare's time would have had to
completely hide his religion from everyone - and especially from
talkative alcoholic low-lifes like actors and playwrights.
The edict of expulsion was still in effect, and I suspect they feared
Elizabeth's secret police at least as much as the Catholics did.
Not that I haven't seen a store here in New York that was owned by a 'McLevy'.
It had gone out of business, so I was unable to ask about his clan tartan.
>(That's where a lot of them went.)
But not necessarily from England.
Scotland back then had trade with Eastern Europe, as well as with France and
Holland.
Strobe
>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>
>>In article <2saug5t8t6p8p00h2...@4ax.com>,
>>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
>>>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>>
>>If he had met one, he was probably Scottish. (That's where a lot
>>of them went.)
>
>Forgive me, but I'm not up on the Bard's comings and goings as I'm sure a lot of
>people are...did he ever travel abroad?...say to Spain or Italy?...r
I don't think he did. Travel back then was very hard, even for the rich.
But, more importantly to my point about the settings for his plays, the vast
bulk of his audiences surely never did.
London was a major seaport back then, and I could accept that Will heard
many tall tales from sailors over a quart or two, but I must doubt that
those tales informed many of his groundlings.
R H Draney
>
>ppint. at home <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>
>I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
It's that damn Y2C problem!...r
ppint. at pplay
dado...@spamcop.net "R H Draney" succumbed to acronymphomania:
> Keith F. Lynch filted:
>> ppint. at home wrote:
>>
>>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>>
>>I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
>
>It's that damn Y2C problem!...r
>
- "2YUR,2YUB;ICUR2Y4ME"
- love, a ppint. that ought to be getting up, out and into IMT.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"homeopathic compression: throw away the data and transmit the spaces;
the data to be reconstructed from the spaces by virtue of these having
remembered its shape. the only compression method more effective with
increasing original data density." - yr hmbl srppnt, 1st october 2004
cryptoguy
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:22:46 +0000, Lizz Holmans <di...@jackalope.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:35:06 -0500, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
> >>>Cf Shylock.
>
> >>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
> >>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>
> What I find intriguing is that negative stereotypes of Jews could persist for
> hundreds of years in a country without Jews.
Unlike, for example, the throughly rehabilitated Philistines.
If you have the church telling you every week that the Jews murdered
Christ, and all the other stories negative - sharp practices, usury,
etc, where is any counterbalancing information going to come from?
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
ppint. at pplay <v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> - hi; in article, <heqa3...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> dado...@spamcop.net "R H Draney" succumbed to acronymphomania:
>> Keith F. Lynch filted:
>>> ppint. at home wrote:
>>>
>>>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>>>
>>>I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
>>
>>It's that damn Y2C problem!...r
>>
> - *g*
>
> - "2YUR,2YUB;ICUR2Y4ME"
>
children's magazines, it was YYUR, etc.
William December Starr
Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> said:
> Another aspect is that without much scene-setting [Shakespeare]
> happily expected his audience to relate to foreign places like
> Denmark, Ephesus, Scotland, Syracuse, Venice and Verona - can
> modern playwrights (or authors) do the same?
Did he get the flavor of the various foreign places right, or was
it the equivalent of the tv shows today that are set in some
not-Southern-California locale but are filmed entirely in SoCal and
it shows, or even moreso, the movies that are set in, and even do
some filming in $PLACE, but get its geography or other details so
wrong that the natives of $PLACE break down laughing?
(Ref. the Canadian mountains that have made appearances in scenes
set in notably non-mountainous parts of the U.S., or the infamous
Pacific Bell pay phone seen at Washington Dulles International
Airport in "Die Hard 2.")
-- wds
Kurt Busiek
pplay") said:
> - hi; in article, <heqa3...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> dado...@spamcop.net "R H Draney" succumbed to acronymphomania:
>> Keith F. Lynch filted:
>>> ppint. at home wrote:
>>>
>>>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>>>
>>> I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
>>
>> It's that damn Y2C problem!...r
>>
> - *g*
>
> - "2YUR,2YUB;ICUR2Y4ME"
Not "2Y," but "YY," so it gets pronounced as "two y's," or "too wise."
Strobe
wrote:
>On Nov 27, 10:28 pm, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
Yes, in the Middle Ages the church was the equivalent of modern mass media,
being the only voice the masses heard regularly.
However, why would the English church need to vilify Jews, when none were
around?
Was it to draw attention from their own problems?
Certainly, the church in England had its problems around Shakespeare's time.
It had only separated from Rome in the reign of Elizabeth's father, and there
was still scheming to restore papal authority.
Dorothy J Heydt
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <k151h5l76tfbkr1cc...@4ax.com>,
>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> said:
>
>> Another aspect is that without much scene-setting [Shakespeare]
>> happily expected his audience to relate to foreign places like
>> Denmark, Ephesus, Scotland, Syracuse, Venice and Verona - can
>> modern playwrights (or authors) do the same?
>
>Did he get the flavor of the various foreign places right, or was
>it the equivalent of the tv shows today that are set in some
>not-Southern-California locale but are filmed entirely in SoCal and
>it shows, or even moreso, the movies that are set in, and even do
>some filming in $PLACE, but get its geography or other details so
>wrong that the natives of $PLACE break down laughing?
Well, there's always the seacoast of Bohemia....
(Now the Czech Republic, if you're a little hazy on obsolete
place names.)
ObSF or anyway Fantasy: Poul Anderson's _A Midsummer Tempest_, in
which everything in Shakespeare is real. And while the common
folk speak in prose, the nobility speak in blank verse, usually
ending a speech with a rhyming couplet; and when the King makes a
speech to his troops, it's a sonnet.
Strobe
I suspect Will used foreign settings to encourage his audience to suspend
disbelief, to overlook discontinuities as being due to the strange ways of those
weird foreigners, so unlike the home life of their own dear queen.
However, I remain surprised that his audience back then seemingly accepted such
exotic settings. To me it seems akin to a modern playwright setting a play
about human emotional conflicts on Centauri III or Deneb IV.
Kurt Busiek
While they were often set in other countries, what were the settings,
really? A king's court. A market square. The woods. It's not as if
the people of Verona acted in strange and exotic ways by comparison to
characters in British-set plays, or the geography of Elsinore matters
much to the story.
And it's not as if Shakespeare used "exotic settings" but other
playwrights of the era did not. Marlowe set plays in Carthage, Malta,
Paris and other locations. Dekker set plays in and out of England, as
did Munday and others.
I don't think it would have been seen by audiences as the equivalent of
setting stories on an alien planet, merely in a place where they knew
people lived and had kings and romances and wars and all that usual
stuff. They may not have seen many Danes in their lifetime, but they
didn't see many Cornishmen either.
English Renaissance theater grew out of mystery plays based on the
Bible, Greek tragedies, Commedia dell'arte and more. Other locations
were part of the foundations of the form, not some weird alien tack-on
Shakespeare innovated.
So to the extent that the locations would seem exotic, it'd be more
like modern playwrights setting plays in places that the audience would
be unlikely to ever go but which they'd known all their lives had
people living in them. The Biblical lands were far off, but not other
planets; they were part of British heritage (Jerusalem!). The Pope was
in Rome, and goods came in from Fance and Spain and Denmark, even if
most playgoers couldn't afford those goods.
Had Shakespeare essayed a faithful portrait of foreign locales, it
might have been off-putting, but he didn't, really. His idea of
Athenian rustics was pretty much what he'd do for English rustics.
Francis Flute, Nick Bottom and Tom Snout aren't exactly Greek. For all
the few nods given to making Romeo and Juliet feel vaguely Italian, the
character types wouldn't be remotely unfamiliar.
Some of the locations he used, he used because he was retelling stories
set in those places. Some, he may have figured the setting was far
enough away to be "not here," and thus he had a free hand with kings
and noble families. But the settings themselves were mostly places
that his audience knew had people living in them for centuries, places
their own nation dealt with. Nothing so exotic as an alien planet.
cryptoguy
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:16:33 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Nov 27, 10:28 pm, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:22:46 +0000, Lizz Holmans <di...@jackalope.demon.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:35:06 -0500, Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com>
> >> >wrote:
>
> >> >>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:55:57 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com>
> >> >>wrote:
>
> >> >>>Giving the moneylender a Jewish accent was just playing to stereotype.
> >> >>>Cf Shylock.
>
> >> >>Oddly, Shakespeare probably never heard a Jewish accent or knowingly met a Jew.
> >> >>They'd been expelled from England since 1290.
>
> >> What I find intriguing is that negative stereotypes of Jews could persist for
> >> hundreds of years in a country without Jews.
>
> >Unlike, for example, the throughly rehabilitated Philistines.
>
> >If you have the church telling you every week that the Jews murdered
> >Christ, and all the other stories negative - sharp practices, usury,
> >etc, where is any counterbalancing information going to come from?
>
> Yes, in the Middle Ages the church was the equivalent of modern mass media,
> being the only voice the masses heard regularly.
>
> However, why would the English church need to vilify Jews, when none were
> around?
Huh? "Jews murdered Christ" was part of the Christian story, for
centuries. 'The Romans did it' is a pretty strained reading of the
text, and only popular in the last couple of centuries.
Shakespeare's Shylock is actually made a pretty sympathetic character.
Remember:
"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt
with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the
same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a
Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do
we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us,
shall we not revenge?
He even allows Shylock to be saved in the end, by converting to
Christianity.
pt
William December Starr
cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> said:
> Huh? "Jews murdered Christ" was part of the Christian story, for
> centuries. 'The Romans did it' is a pretty strained reading of the
> text, and only popular in the last couple of centuries.
Which text doesn't say that it was Romans who nailed the guy to the
cross?
-- wds
John Francis
>Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> said:
>
>> Another aspect is that without much scene-setting [Shakespeare]
>> happily expected his audience to relate to foreign places like
>> Denmark, Ephesus, Scotland, Syracuse, Venice and Verona - can
>> modern playwrights (or authors) do the same?
>
>Did he get the flavor of the various foreign places right, or was
>it the equivalent of the tv shows today that are set in some
>not-Southern-California locale but are filmed entirely in SoCal and
>it shows, or even moreso, the movies that are set in, and even do
>some filming in $PLACE, but get its geography or other details so
>wrong that the natives of $PLACE break down laughing?
Like "Prince of Thieves" having the white cliffs of Dover a couple
of hours ride on horseback from Sherwood Forest, say?
ppint. at pplay
djh...@kithrup.com "Dorothy J Heydt" observed:
> ppint. at pplay wrote:
>> dado...@spamcop.net "R H Draney" succumbed to acronymphomania:
>>> Keith F. Lynch filted:
>>>> ppint. at home wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> - trde on rec.arts.sf.fandom, 10/5/2005 (5/10/205 for merkins)
>>>>
>>>>I had no idea our caledars differed by that much. 1800 years, wow.
>>>
>>>It's that damn Y2C problem!...r
>>>
>> - *g*
>>
>> - "2YUR,2YUB;ICUR2Y4ME"
>>
>Only back in my day when rebuses used to get printed in children's
>magazines, it was YYUR, etc.
>
problem!...r", and so needed to phrase^W transliterate it so.
- love, a ppint. who got bitten expensively by y2k, and'll
sooner or later have to face up to the 9/2038 problem...
cryptoguy
> In article <53590021-3974-4563-badc-a2c0476a2...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > Huh? "Jews murdered Christ" was part of the Christian story, for
> > centuries. 'The Romans did it' is a pretty strained reading of the
> > text, and only popular in the last couple of centuries.
>
> Which text doesn't say that it was Romans who nailed the guy to the
> cross?
I run the risk here of sounding anti-Semitic, which would be very far
from the truth. But to take the Devil's Advocate position.
Go read Mark 23, 1-24
Pilate appears pretty damn reluctant to kill Jesus. Its the Temple
Priests, scribes, and mob who are pissed off with him, and bring him
before Pilate. Pilate offers Jesus the chance to defend himself,
declares him innocent, and passes the buck, sending him before Herod.
Herod refuses to declare him guilty either, and sends him back. On his
return Pilate still considers him innocent, and tries again to get him
released, after a whipping. But the mob wants Barabbas released
instead. Pilate finally caves, possibly thinking that it was better to
execute one deeply unpopular preacher than have a riot.
I think a plain reading of the text will lead most people to the
conclusion that while, yes, the Romans (the occupying power) carried
out the actual execution, the driving force behind it was the Temple
Priests, and the Jerusalem mob they whipped up on that day.
The RC church is steeped in the notion of hereditary guilt, most
notably in the doctrine of Original Sin. I wonder if that meme
contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit in
the crucification.
The RC church eventually explicitly repudiated this view, but only in
1965, in the document Nostra Aetate. Even that acknowledges that the
priests and mob at that time pressed for Jesus' execution.
At the time of Shakespeare, the 'the Jews forced the Romans into it'
view didn't have any such counterbalance.
pt
cryptoguy
> In article <hesano$96...@panix2.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wdst...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <k151h5l76tfbkr1cc7vr0aaf6sfokk0...@4ax.com>,
> >Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com> said:
>
> >> Another aspect is that without much scene-setting [Shakespeare]
> >> happily expected his audience to relate to foreign places like
> >> Denmark, Ephesus, Scotland, Syracuse, Venice and Verona - can
> >> modern playwrights (or authors) do the same?
>
> >Did he get the flavor of the various foreign places right, or was
> >it the equivalent of the tv shows today that are set in some
> >not-Southern-California locale but are filmed entirely in SoCal and
> >it shows, or even moreso, the movies that are set in, and even do
> >some filming in $PLACE, but get its geography or other details so
> >wrong that the natives of $PLACE break down laughing?
>
> Like "Prince of Thieves" having the white cliffs of Dover a couple
> of hours ride on horseback from Sherwood Forest, say?
Or the snowy mountains in the background of the Waterloo battlefield?
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
You don't mention the Sanhedrim's motive for getting rid of
Jesus. John 11:47-48: "So the chief priests and the Pharisees
called the council together and said, 'What are we doing? For
this man is performing many miraculous signs. If we allow
him to go on in this way, everyone will believe in him, and
the Romans will come and take away our sanctuary and our
nation.'" Under the limited degree of Roman occupation at that
stage, the Sanhedrim still had a great deal of power over daily
affairs, and they wanted to keep it.
>The RC church is steeped in the notion of hereditary guilt, most
>notably in the doctrine of Original Sin.
The doctrine of original sin does better at explaining human
nature than anything else I've encountered. However, what
the Church stresses is not that humans are sinful (until quite
recently, everyone *knew* that), but that they can repent of
their sins and be saved.
I wonder if that meme
>contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit in
>the crucification.
Nitpick: crucifixion.
Dorothy J Heydt
There's a (possibly apocryphal) story of a director who wanted the
final scene of his film to feature the sun setting over the sea.
However, he was shooting on the east coast of the US, and you
don't get sunsets over the sea there (by and large, there are
probably a few bays that would work, but he wasn't there). So he
said, ok, we'll film the sunrise over the sea and run the film
backwards. This sounded great till they looked at the rushes and
saw the seagulls flying backwards.
erilar
jo...@panix.com (John Francis) wrote:
> Like "Prince of Thieves" having the white cliffs of Dover a couple
> of hours ride on horseback from Sherwood Forest, say?
Typical of that movie, which is definitely one of the lesser Robin Hood
movies in my opinion. There was a fairly decent one on TV about the
same time that was pretty decent.
And on the subject of Robin Hood movies, did anyone see the howler on
Siffy Saturday? My granddaughter wanted to watch it and I was in the
same room, commenting. . . I'm trying to twist her reaction to idiotic
movies as I did to her mother long ago 8-)
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
erilar
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
The Illiterate's Bible?
cryptoguy
> In article <46238330-5c3d-4656-a4ea-2b3f8cc8e...@g31g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if that meme
>
> >contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit in
> >the crucification.
>
> Nitpick: crucifixion.
You're right on the nitpick. I mistyped the word, GG highlighted it,
and I picked its suggestion, being in a hurry. It was wrong, and I
didn't catch on till too late.
pt
David Goldfarb
cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>conclusion that while, yes, the Romans (the occupying power) carried
>out the actual execution, the driving force behind it was the Temple
>Priests, and the Jerusalem mob they whipped up on that day.
Matthew 27:24-25 has Pilate explicitly saying "I wash my hands of this
just man's blood", and the Jewish mob answering "His blood be upon us
and upon our children."
(An event which doesn't occur in the other three Gospels, to be sure.)
--
David Goldfarb |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "It's flabby and delicious."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
cryptoguy
> In article <46238330-5c3d-4656-a4ea-2b3f8cc8e...@g31g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >I think a plain reading of the text will lead most people to the
> >conclusion that while, yes, the Romans (the occupying power) carried
> >out the actual execution, the driving force behind it was the Temple
> >Priests, and the Jerusalem mob they whipped up on that day.
>
> Matthew 27:24-25 has Pilate explicitly saying "I wash my hands of this
> just man's blood", and the Jewish mob answering "His blood be upon us
> and upon our children."
>
> (An event which doesn't occur in the other three Gospels, to be sure.)
Exactly. The Christian Bible's account, on plain reading, places most
of the blame on the priests and the mob, not on the Romans, who seem
to have bent over backwards trying to avoid executing Jesus.
This is the way the story was taught up until the 1960s. It is
certainly the way people of Shakespeare's time read it, and was a
major factor in the continuing, endemic anti-semitism of the time,
which is what we were discussing in this subthread.
That the current church studiously avoids reading it this way now is
admirable, but not relevant to the 17th C.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
>>> contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit
>>> in the crucification.
>> Nitpick: crucifixion.
> You're right on the nitpick. I mistyped the word, GG highlighted
> it, and I picked its suggestion, being in a hurry. It was wrong,
> and I didn't catch on till too late.
I've also seen it spelled crucifiction. But never crucification.
Google recommended the latter? Sigh.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
William Hyde
> In article <53590021-3974-4563-badc-a2c0476a2...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > Huh? "Jews murdered Christ" was part of the Christian story, for
> > centuries. 'The Romans did it' is a pretty strained reading of the
> > text, and only popular in the last couple of centuries.
>
> Which text doesn't say that it was Romans who nailed the guy to the
> cross?
>
> -- wds
Both Pilate, and IIRC, his wife, were made saints by various Christian
churches (not western ones, as it happens).
William Hyde
William Hyde
> In article <46238330-5c3d-4656-a4ea-
> just man's blood", and the Jewish mob answering "His blood be upon us
> and upon our children."
>
> (An event which doesn't occur in the other three Gospels, to be sure.)
Ah yes, I recall a brainless fundy in Texas telling me that this
verse gave him the right to discriminate against Jews if he wanted
to. Which, of course, he didn't. Really didn't, no kidding. Not
at all. Why, some of his best friends ....
William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, you gotta watch out for spellcheckers, their AI isn't very
I. I once worked for a scientist named Cozzarelli. Every time I
typed his name (which was, you understand, pretty often), the
spellchecker asked plaintively if I didn't mean Mozzarella.
R H Draney
>
>cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>> cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit
>>>> in the crucification.
>
>>> Nitpick: crucifixion.
>
>> You're right on the nitpick. I mistyped the word, GG highlighted
>> it, and I picked its suggestion, being in a hurry. It was wrong,
>> and I didn't catch on till too late.
>
>I've also seen it spelled crucifiction. But never crucification.
>Google recommended the latter? Sigh.
MS Word (hakk! ptui!) has a few issues with acronyms...someone in our "Data Base
Management Admin" group discovered that "DBMA" got the red underline, with two
suggested corrections: "Dumb" and "Dumber"....
"Crucification" is a real word (despite the fact that my browser is now
underlining it)...it means "turning something into a cross"...not *quite* what
was meant, but at least it's in the dictionary....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Hatunen
We Tucsonans get inured to the use of our settings, flora and
fauna being injected nto films where they have no right to be. I
recently caught some of "My Darling Clementine" on TV. It was set
in Tombstone in the rather barren desrt of Monument Valley, most
of which is not even in Arizona. In fact, Tombstone is located
about 100km ESE of Tucson in some high hills and still looks
pretty much as it did in Wyatt Earps' day. Then to add insult to
injury, they stuck some fake saguaro cactuses here and there; in
fact, saguaros don't grow around Tombstone.
I can at least understand that they might have wanted to give a
southeast Arizona flavor to "Clementine", but I can't figure any
excuse for putting fake saguaros in the Monument Valley running
scene in "Forrest Gump."
The movie "Oklahoma!" was filmed in the Canelo Valley about 100km
south of Tucson, which is why there are mountains in the distance
behind the cornfields. I understand those cornfields presented
quite a problem since it was out of corn season and rainfall here
is rather low. Each stalk had to be hand planted from some sort
of nursery, at the University of Arizona, I believe.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Shana Rosenfeld
> Yeah, you gotta watch out for spellcheckers, their AI isn't very
> I. I once worked for a scientist named Cozzarelli. Every time I
> typed his name (which was, you understand, pretty often), the
> spellchecker asked plaintively if I didn't mean Mozzarella.
>
One of the vice presidents at my last job was named Mazzarella. Every
time we upgraded the word processing system, that was one of the first
things into the dictionary.
--
Shana L. Rosenfeld sh...@westnet.com
http://slrose.livejournal.com
Hatunen
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>> cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> contributed to regarding all Jews since then as somehow complicit
>>>> in the crucification.
>
>>> Nitpick: crucifixion.
>
>> You're right on the nitpick. I mistyped the word, GG highlighted
>> it, and I picked its suggestion, being in a hurry. It was wrong,
>> and I didn't catch on till too late.
>
>I've also seen it spelled crucifiction.
I thought the same, but dictionary.reference.com doesn't seem to
recognize "crucifiction".
Keith F. Lynch
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Yeah, you gotta watch out for spellcheckers, their AI isn't very
>> I. I once worked for a scientist named Cozzarelli. Every time
>> I typed his name (which was, you understand, pretty often), the
>> spellchecker asked plaintively if I didn't mean Mozzarella.
A client where I used to work was NAVSEA. The word processor kept
changing it to "nausea." But that was over 20 years ago. I had hoped
spell-checkers would have improved since then.
> One of the vice presidents at my last job was named Mazzarella.
> Every time we upgraded the word processing system, that was one
> of the first things into the dictionary.
The upgrades wiped out all your additions to the dictionary? That's
an awfully bad design. And one likely to discourage upgrades.
Keith F. Lynch
> I can at least understand that they might have wanted to give a
> southeast Arizona flavor to "Clementine", but I can't figure any
> excuse for putting fake saguaros in the Monument Valley running
> scene in "Forrest Gump."
I recently watched a movie set in Victorian England. A nuclear
cooling tower was visible.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> I can at least understand that they might have wanted to give a
>> southeast Arizona flavor to "Clementine", but I can't figure any
>> excuse for putting fake saguaros in the Monument Valley running
>> scene in "Forrest Gump."
>
>I recently watched a movie set in Victorian England. A nuclear
>cooling tower was visible.
And then there's _The Fellowship of the Ring_ with a car going by
in the background, as the hobbits wander through a field of
maize.
Dimensional Traveler
> In article <heveg2$a49$6...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> I can at least understand that they might have wanted to give a
>>> southeast Arizona flavor to "Clementine", but I can't figure any
>>> excuse for putting fake saguaros in the Monument Valley running
>>> scene in "Forrest Gump."
>> I recently watched a movie set in Victorian England. A nuclear
>> cooling tower was visible.
>
> And then there's _The Fellowship of the Ring_ with a car going by
> in the background, as the hobbits wander through a field of
> maize.
>
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Dimensional Traveler
from the DVDs.
From IMDb: Many viewers spotted a car in the background of the
theatrical version when Sam says that he is now the furthest he has ever
been from home. In a 1 December 2003 Newsweek article, director Peter
Jackson confirmed this, and revealed the car had been removed digitally
for the DVD release. Jackson says: "We actually didn't know about the
car until we were cutting the movie. The smoke and dust wasn't so bad
because there was already lots of it around, but the bloody windshield
was reflecting the sun back into the camera lens. So we erased it for
the DVD. I think some people were upset because they tried to show it to
their friends and it was gone."
Dorothy J Heydt
Nah, just a plain old car driven, as I suppose, by an ordinary
Kiwi.