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A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction
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Lynn McGuire
Apr 12, 2017, 5:40:30 PM4/12/17
to
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
Zombies
There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
Walking Home
The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.
Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
the majority of people realize what’s happened.
For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
Destruction of Electronics
The two best-known books based on this meme are David Crawford’s Lights
Out and William R. Forstchen’s One Second After. Both are better-written
than average for this genre. The problem is, their scenario is very
unlikely. There are two mechanisms for such an event:
o a Carrington-class solar storm (coronal mass ejection), which would
damage long transmission lines, transformers, and any AC equipment that
was connected, but not unconnected electronics, such as automobiles,
cell phones, pacemakers, etc. etc. The aftermath would be hideously bad,
but would not destroy all electronics, let alone electric motors and so
on. Note that a CME is predictable, and that the world would have
probably several days’ warning to take measures to minimize damage.
o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
Rawles’ Golden Hordes
In his books, Rawles was one of the first authors other than Pournelle
and Niven to predict ravening hordes of refugees flowing out of the
cities and into rural areas, where they’d overwhelm the locals. That’s
possible, of course, depending on the type of disaster that occurs. In a
financial collapse or similar widespread disaster, we’d probably see the
converse: people migrating from rural areas to the large cities, because
that’s where government disaster relief efforts would be concentrated.
Rural areas would be the last to get any such relief efforts, if indeed
they received any help at all.
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014. Interstates literally
turned into parking lots, even though the event had been forecast well
in advance. A dirty bomb attack or similar event that occurred with no
notice would clog highways even faster. Accidents, disabled vehicles,
and all of the other things that happen in such circumstances would make
roads impassable, starting with the interstates and other main highways,
but quickly clogging even 2-lane roads.
What Rawles and others ignore is what I call the tenth-value distance.
How many miles of road is sufficient to cut the number of people down to
10% of the original number? That TVD obviously varies with the specifics
for an area. For the Triad and Charlotte populations trying to evacuate
towards Sparta, I estimated the TVD at 10 miles. In other words, if
100,000 people set out from the Triad heading towards Sparta, after 10
miles that’d be down to 10,000, after 20 miles down to 1,000, and so on.
After the 60 miles to Sparta, that original number of people would be
down to (0.1)e6, or one one-millionth of the original number. Call it
one tenth of a person would reach Sparta.
That’s the good news, at least for Sparta residents if not Triad
residents. The bad news is that the TVD applies to average people. The
TVD for really bad people–one percenter motorcycle gangs, inner-city
gangs, and so on–is much higher. Yeah, we’d see groups of them up here,
but there are plenty of Good Old Boys here, most of whom grew up hunting
and shooting. Gang members who decide to come up here to rob, rape, and
pillage would find themselves dead pretty quickly.
Bugging Out
The concept of bugging out is hugely popular in PA fiction, but the
reality is that it almost never makes sense to bug out except in a
disaster that’s very localized. If a train wreck dumps toxic chemicals
near your home or a huge wildfire is approaching, yes it makes sense to
bug out, but the idea of a very localized disaster with everywhere
outside the immediate area unaffected is, by definition, not an
apocalyptic scenario. In a widespread catastrophe, leaving your home and
going out on the road is simply stupid. At home, you have all of your
supplies and you are surrounded by people you’ve known for years.
Hunkering down preserves those advantages; bugging out gives up all of
them in exchange for the uncertainties of the road. Even if you have a
well-stocked bugout location, getting there is by no means certain. And
even if you do get there, there’s a good chance you’ll find it looted
and perhaps occupied by squatters. Hunkering down is far safer, even if
you’re in a suburb of a larger city. Making a run for it is not far from
suicidal.
Evil FEMA/DHS
PA authors love to cast FEMA/DHS as evil jackbooted thugs. The reality
is that they’re mostly ordinary people. In a catastrophe, they’ll being
doing their best to do their jobs. Sure there’ll be some petty
bureaucrats drunken with power who make things for refugees worse than
they might have been, and yes the realities of having to care for
thousands or tens of thousands of people will require them to enforce
strict rules, but the idea that FEMA/DHS will end up running
concentration camps, let alone death camps, is ridiculous. They won’t be
trying to make people miserable, let alone enslave them.
Not that things wouldn’t be miserable despite their best efforts. Even
if the country mobilized every resource available, the state and federal
governments simply don’t have sufficient resources to deal with even a
regional disaster, let alone one that’s nationwide. There simply isn’t
enough spare food sitting around to feed everyone, or pure water, or
spare electrical generation capacity, or drugs, or anything else.
Everything would be in extremely short supply, and conditions in such
refugee camps would soon become unspeakably bad. But don’t blame that on
FEMA/DHS. Just resolve to do what it takes to take care of yourself and
your family and friends, because if there is a large scale catastrophe
the last place you want to be is anywhere near a refugee camp.
Breakdown of Law
Another common meme is WROL (without rule of law). The idea that the
government becomes utterly incapable of enforcing even fundamental laws
like those against rape, robbery, and murder. Since they can’t or won’t
enforce such fundamental laws, plucky preppers have to do it themselves.
These preppers have no fear of ever facing charges for shooting people
out of hand and so on, because the government isn’t there any more.
Don’t count on it. State and local law enforcement may be overwhelmed
initially, and in fact probably would be. But they’ll still be there,
and when things begin to settle down they’re likely to show up at your
door and ask you some hard questions about that pile of bodies
surrounding your house. The metric will be “were these the actions of a
reasonable man?” Law enforcement, particularly in rural areas and small
towns, will tend to sympathize with ordinary people who were forced to
use lethal force to defend themselves, but that’s about as far as it
will go.
Isolated Cabins
PA novelists often fantasize about a family living in their retreat, a
self-sufficient homestead miles from their nearest neighbors. In
reality, such a site would be about as dangerous as living in a central
city. Maybe more so. Isolating yourself geographically from bad events
makes sense superficially, but only for as long as it takes you to
consider the implications. Being miles from your nearest neighbor
doesn’t mean the bad guys won’t find you. It just means the nearest help
is miles away. The bad guys, if they have the common sense of a turnip,
will ambush you, snipe you, and otherwise pick at you piecemeal until
they’ve eliminated your ability to defend yourself, which was pretty
limited to begin with. You’re on your own. No one is coming to help you.
You and your family will die alone, and the bad guys will eat everything
you have stored away and then move to the next isolated cabin and do it
again.
It’s far better to put yourself in a small-town/rural setting where you
have friends and neighbors. Not just for a common defense, but to share
skills, knowledge, and other resources. I know a lot about a lot, but I
don’t know everything about everything, and some or many of the things I
know nothing about may turn out to be critical. That’s why Barbara and I
chose to move where we did. There are a lot of people around here who
have useful/critical skills, and by becoming part of the community we
are preparing to share our own skills in the expectation that others
will do the same.
So I’m preparing for none of those scenarios because none of them are
very likely. Which brings me to the final common meme in PA novels, but
this one actually does make sense.
Doubling Up
What Rawles calls “doubling up” essentially means sharing not just your
skills but your living space with others who have complementary skills
and supplies. In a critical situation, when you’re surrounded by
potential threats, you need trusted people above all. You and your wife
aren’t enough. Even if you invite your extended family to stay with you
during an emergency, that’s probably not enough people. There’ll be
loads of work to do and not enough people to do it all. Finding
additional trustworthy people to be part of your group should be your
highest priority."
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
Zombies
There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
Walking Home
The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.
Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
the majority of people realize what’s happened.
For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
Destruction of Electronics
The two best-known books based on this meme are David Crawford’s Lights
Out and William R. Forstchen’s One Second After. Both are better-written
than average for this genre. The problem is, their scenario is very
unlikely. There are two mechanisms for such an event:
o a Carrington-class solar storm (coronal mass ejection), which would
damage long transmission lines, transformers, and any AC equipment that
was connected, but not unconnected electronics, such as automobiles,
cell phones, pacemakers, etc. etc. The aftermath would be hideously bad,
but would not destroy all electronics, let alone electric motors and so
on. Note that a CME is predictable, and that the world would have
probably several days’ warning to take measures to minimize damage.
o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
Rawles’ Golden Hordes
In his books, Rawles was one of the first authors other than Pournelle
and Niven to predict ravening hordes of refugees flowing out of the
cities and into rural areas, where they’d overwhelm the locals. That’s
possible, of course, depending on the type of disaster that occurs. In a
financial collapse or similar widespread disaster, we’d probably see the
converse: people migrating from rural areas to the large cities, because
that’s where government disaster relief efforts would be concentrated.
Rural areas would be the last to get any such relief efforts, if indeed
they received any help at all.
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014. Interstates literally
turned into parking lots, even though the event had been forecast well
in advance. A dirty bomb attack or similar event that occurred with no
notice would clog highways even faster. Accidents, disabled vehicles,
and all of the other things that happen in such circumstances would make
roads impassable, starting with the interstates and other main highways,
but quickly clogging even 2-lane roads.
What Rawles and others ignore is what I call the tenth-value distance.
How many miles of road is sufficient to cut the number of people down to
10% of the original number? That TVD obviously varies with the specifics
for an area. For the Triad and Charlotte populations trying to evacuate
towards Sparta, I estimated the TVD at 10 miles. In other words, if
100,000 people set out from the Triad heading towards Sparta, after 10
miles that’d be down to 10,000, after 20 miles down to 1,000, and so on.
After the 60 miles to Sparta, that original number of people would be
down to (0.1)e6, or one one-millionth of the original number. Call it
one tenth of a person would reach Sparta.
That’s the good news, at least for Sparta residents if not Triad
residents. The bad news is that the TVD applies to average people. The
TVD for really bad people–one percenter motorcycle gangs, inner-city
gangs, and so on–is much higher. Yeah, we’d see groups of them up here,
but there are plenty of Good Old Boys here, most of whom grew up hunting
and shooting. Gang members who decide to come up here to rob, rape, and
pillage would find themselves dead pretty quickly.
Bugging Out
The concept of bugging out is hugely popular in PA fiction, but the
reality is that it almost never makes sense to bug out except in a
disaster that’s very localized. If a train wreck dumps toxic chemicals
near your home or a huge wildfire is approaching, yes it makes sense to
bug out, but the idea of a very localized disaster with everywhere
outside the immediate area unaffected is, by definition, not an
apocalyptic scenario. In a widespread catastrophe, leaving your home and
going out on the road is simply stupid. At home, you have all of your
supplies and you are surrounded by people you’ve known for years.
Hunkering down preserves those advantages; bugging out gives up all of
them in exchange for the uncertainties of the road. Even if you have a
well-stocked bugout location, getting there is by no means certain. And
even if you do get there, there’s a good chance you’ll find it looted
and perhaps occupied by squatters. Hunkering down is far safer, even if
you’re in a suburb of a larger city. Making a run for it is not far from
suicidal.
Evil FEMA/DHS
PA authors love to cast FEMA/DHS as evil jackbooted thugs. The reality
is that they’re mostly ordinary people. In a catastrophe, they’ll being
doing their best to do their jobs. Sure there’ll be some petty
bureaucrats drunken with power who make things for refugees worse than
they might have been, and yes the realities of having to care for
thousands or tens of thousands of people will require them to enforce
strict rules, but the idea that FEMA/DHS will end up running
concentration camps, let alone death camps, is ridiculous. They won’t be
trying to make people miserable, let alone enslave them.
Not that things wouldn’t be miserable despite their best efforts. Even
if the country mobilized every resource available, the state and federal
governments simply don’t have sufficient resources to deal with even a
regional disaster, let alone one that’s nationwide. There simply isn’t
enough spare food sitting around to feed everyone, or pure water, or
spare electrical generation capacity, or drugs, or anything else.
Everything would be in extremely short supply, and conditions in such
refugee camps would soon become unspeakably bad. But don’t blame that on
FEMA/DHS. Just resolve to do what it takes to take care of yourself and
your family and friends, because if there is a large scale catastrophe
the last place you want to be is anywhere near a refugee camp.
Breakdown of Law
Another common meme is WROL (without rule of law). The idea that the
government becomes utterly incapable of enforcing even fundamental laws
like those against rape, robbery, and murder. Since they can’t or won’t
enforce such fundamental laws, plucky preppers have to do it themselves.
These preppers have no fear of ever facing charges for shooting people
out of hand and so on, because the government isn’t there any more.
Don’t count on it. State and local law enforcement may be overwhelmed
initially, and in fact probably would be. But they’ll still be there,
and when things begin to settle down they’re likely to show up at your
door and ask you some hard questions about that pile of bodies
surrounding your house. The metric will be “were these the actions of a
reasonable man?” Law enforcement, particularly in rural areas and small
towns, will tend to sympathize with ordinary people who were forced to
use lethal force to defend themselves, but that’s about as far as it
will go.
Isolated Cabins
PA novelists often fantasize about a family living in their retreat, a
self-sufficient homestead miles from their nearest neighbors. In
reality, such a site would be about as dangerous as living in a central
city. Maybe more so. Isolating yourself geographically from bad events
makes sense superficially, but only for as long as it takes you to
consider the implications. Being miles from your nearest neighbor
doesn’t mean the bad guys won’t find you. It just means the nearest help
is miles away. The bad guys, if they have the common sense of a turnip,
will ambush you, snipe you, and otherwise pick at you piecemeal until
they’ve eliminated your ability to defend yourself, which was pretty
limited to begin with. You’re on your own. No one is coming to help you.
You and your family will die alone, and the bad guys will eat everything
you have stored away and then move to the next isolated cabin and do it
again.
It’s far better to put yourself in a small-town/rural setting where you
have friends and neighbors. Not just for a common defense, but to share
skills, knowledge, and other resources. I know a lot about a lot, but I
don’t know everything about everything, and some or many of the things I
know nothing about may turn out to be critical. That’s why Barbara and I
chose to move where we did. There are a lot of people around here who
have useful/critical skills, and by becoming part of the community we
are preparing to share our own skills in the expectation that others
will do the same.
So I’m preparing for none of those scenarios because none of them are
very likely. Which brings me to the final common meme in PA novels, but
this one actually does make sense.
Doubling Up
What Rawles calls “doubling up” essentially means sharing not just your
skills but your living space with others who have complementary skills
and supplies. In a critical situation, when you’re surrounded by
potential threats, you need trusted people above all. You and your wife
aren’t enough. Even if you invite your extended family to stay with you
during an emergency, that’s probably not enough people. There’ll be
loads of work to do and not enough people to do it all. Finding
additional trustworthy people to be part of your group should be your
highest priority."
Cryptoengineer
Apr 12, 2017, 10:58:16 PM4/12/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ocm6mi$dp6$1...@dont-email.me:
Thanks, that was interesting and sane.
pt
news:ocm6mi$dp6$1...@dont-email.me:
pt
David Johnston
Apr 12, 2017, 11:18:37 PM4/12/17
to
On 4/12/2017 3:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
>
> Zombies
>
> There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
> tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
> serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
>
Which is kind of missing the point. Zombies are stand-ins for a laundry
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
>
> Zombies
>
> There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
> tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
> serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
>
list of fears among which are infectious disease, angry mobs, collapse
of social order, loss of cognitive faculty and poor people. Zombies
don't exist but many of the things they represent do.
Sjouke Burry
Apr 13, 2017, 2:07:26 AM4/13/17
to
On 12.04.17 23:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
>
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
>
to take measures to minimize damage.
>
CUT
>
> o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
> would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
> severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
> simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
> impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
> damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
> connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
> and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
> all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
> diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
> which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
> reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
> affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
> percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
> perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
> cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
> generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
>
Cut
> would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
> severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
> simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
> impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
> damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
> connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
> and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
> all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
> diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
> which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
> reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
> affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
> percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
> perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
> cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
> generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
>
Emp HAS been seen, with nuclear air burst tests, blowing out electricity
networks (on Hawaii islands as I seem to remember).
Checking....... Yes Google for: emp damage Hawaii
And that was unintentional.
Had the altitude been much higher, it would have caused severe damage.
J. Clarke
Apr 13, 2017, 5:34:08 AM4/13/17
to
In article <58ef159c$0$7182$e4fe...@textnews.kpn.nl>,
burrynu...@ppllaanneett.nnll says...
woirking and a few street lights burned out. Maybe it was due to the EMP,
maybe it was coincidence.
> Checking....... Yes Google for: emp damage Hawaii
> And that was unintentional.
> Had the altitude been much higher, it would have caused severe damage.
What leads you to believe that this is the case?
burrynu...@ppllaanneett.nnll says...
>
> On 12.04.17 23:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> > http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
> >
> > Lynn
> >
> >
> >
> > "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> > several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> > easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> > Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
> >
> to take measures to minimize damage.
> >
> CUT
> > o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
> > would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
> > severity are unknowable, simply because it?s never happened. There are
> On 12.04.17 23:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> > http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
> >
> > Lynn
> >
> >
> >
> > "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> > several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> > easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> > Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
> >
> to take measures to minimize damage.
> >
> CUT
> > o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
> > would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
> > simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
> > impossible. It?s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
> > damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
> > connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
> > and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
> > all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
> > diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
> > which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
> > reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
> > affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
> > percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
> > perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
> > cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
> > generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
> >
> Cut
>
> Emp HAS been seen, with nuclear air burst tests, blowing out electricity
> networks (on Hawaii islands as I seem to remember).
For certain values of "blowing out". A few traffic signals stopped
> > connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
> > and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
> > all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
> > diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
> > which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
> > reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
> > affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
> > percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
> > perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
> > cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
> > generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
> >
> Cut
>
> Emp HAS been seen, with nuclear air burst tests, blowing out electricity
> networks (on Hawaii islands as I seem to remember).
woirking and a few street lights burned out. Maybe it was due to the EMP,
maybe it was coincidence.
> Checking....... Yes Google for: emp damage Hawaii
> And that was unintentional.
> Had the altitude been much higher, it would have caused severe damage.
Greg Goss
Apr 13, 2017, 8:07:39 AM4/13/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Walking Home
>
>The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
>thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
>He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
>much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
>heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
>walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.
>
>Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
>Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
>ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
>really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
>from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
>the majority of people realize what’s happened.
>
>For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
>down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
>her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
>it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
>when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
>Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
>in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
>making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
In Lucifer's Hammer, Tim Hamner makes it to his observatory quite
>
>Walking Home
>
>The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
>thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
>He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
>much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
>heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
>walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.
>
>Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
>Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
>ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
>really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
>from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
>the majority of people realize what’s happened.
>
>For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
>down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
>her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
>it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
>when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
>Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
>in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
>making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
early after the event. They don't let him in, though they offer to
accept his companion.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
Apr 13, 2017, 8:12:10 AM4/13/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
>bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
>ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
>evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
>than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
>Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
>bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
>ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
>evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
>than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
James Nicoll
Apr 13, 2017, 9:36:26 AM4/13/17
to
In article <el988o...@mid.individual.net>,
In 1979 Mississauga evacuated 200,000 people on short notice, a feat that
got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
emergency doctrines.
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
emergency doctrines.
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Richard Hershberger
Apr 13, 2017, 9:52:14 AM4/13/17
to
The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
Richard R. Hershberger
Greg Goss
Apr 13, 2017, 10:57:34 AM4/13/17
to
Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
>> >bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
>> >ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
>> >evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
>> >than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
>>
>> A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
>> 2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
>> airport on minor roads.
>
>I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
>
>The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
She asked the hotel concierge, who asked a few staff and a couple of
>On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
>> >bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
>> >ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
>> >evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
>> >than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
>>
>> A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
>> 2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
>> airport on minor roads.
>
>I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
>
>The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
taxi drivers for directions. (The MIL had a rental car based at the
airport.)
>Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
However, my city has had major rebuilding, especially in my corner of
it, since then. I think it was 800,000 then and 1.2M now. And the
artery routings in my corner have suffered additional re-arranging due
to the shutdown of the biggest non-freeway artery in my quadrant due
to airport expansion. The 12 year old map book is almost irrelevant
for anything in the outer half (ring) of the city.
Peter Trei
Apr 13, 2017, 12:52:30 PM4/13/17
to
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
> > >bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
> > >ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
> > >evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
> > >than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
> >
> > A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
> > 2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
> > airport on minor roads.
>
> I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
> > >bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
> > >ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
> > >evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
> > >than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
> >
> > A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
> > 2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
> > airport on minor roads.
>
> I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
road own chainsaws.
> The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
also have a printed road atlas in the trunk. Don't you?
> Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
not connected to long wires.
My phone one will be much less useful unless I've downloaded maps off the web,
but the car one uses a DVD.
pt
Don Kuenz
Apr 13, 2017, 1:42:31 PM4/13/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
Here's some highlights from a recent blog post to provide grist for the
mill:
"About that Bug-Out Hideaway..." (Charles Hugh-Smith)
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogapr17/bug-out4-17.html
The intuitive solution to many, from the super-wealthy
on down, is some version of a hideaway in the woods ...
The Remote Cabin in the Woods: the Perfect Target for
Theft ...
Simply put, if humans are settled anywhere nearby,
nothing is remote or secret. ...
A local news story some years ago illustrated the
point: some luckless outsider's entire bug-out cabin was
stolen: not the contents, the entire cabin. The "owner"
returned to a bare concrete slab.
"Remote and secret" means "easy to steal": nobody
around, plenty of time to take the whole darn thing. ...
Thank you,
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Quadibloc
Apr 13, 2017, 1:53:59 PM4/13/17
to
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:52:30 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> > The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and
> > if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be
> > at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days
> > before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes.
> > There are a lot of dinky country roads.
> When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
> overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
> not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
> road own chainsaws.
The difference between a dinky country road and a dinky city road is that the
> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> > The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and
> > if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be
> > at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days
> > before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes.
> > There are a lot of dinky country roads.
> When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
> overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
> not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
> road own chainsaws.
former may not _be_ part of a neighborhood where a lot of people live.
One can't really expect a farmer to keep the roads running beside his property
clear all the time, as the boundary of a quarter section is a lot of road.
John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 13, 2017, 2:08:43 PM4/13/17
to
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:227f75f0-a9bf-4057...@googlegroups.com:
You've clearly never known a farmer in snow country, with a snow
plow for his tractor. The road running by a quarter section only is
a qarter mile, generally speaking.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:227f75f0-a9bf-4057...@googlegroups.com:
plow for his tractor. The road running by a quarter section only is
a qarter mile, generally speaking.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 13, 2017, 2:10:36 PM4/13/17
to
Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote in news:2017...@crcomp.net:
> A local news story some years ago illustrated the
> point: some luckless outsider's entire bug-out cabin was
> stolen: not the contents, the entire cabin. The "owner"
> returned to a bare concrete slab.
Ted Kaczynski's cabin was taken by the feds as evidence. Last I
> A local news story some years ago illustrated the
> point: some luckless outsider's entire bug-out cabin was
> stolen: not the contents, the entire cabin. The "owner"
> returned to a bare concrete slab.
recall, it was on display in Washington, DC, intact.
Lynn McGuire
Apr 13, 2017, 2:12:24 PM4/13/17
to
On 4/12/2017 4:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
> A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
> http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> "I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
> several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
> easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
> Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
Lynn
Gene Wirchenko
Apr 13, 2017, 3:01:53 PM4/13/17
to
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Richard Hershberger
<rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS
will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be
laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them
from us.
I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
There is a place on Highway 97 about midway between 100 Mile
House and Williams Lake that is infamous for accidents. The hgiway is
the only main road in the area. I have found two alternative routes
(suitable for non-snow use) that I hope I never have to try. (Why I
looked was because of a very severe accident where a man nearly had a
shoulder ripped off.)
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
<rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS
will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be
laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them
from us.
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
There is a place on Highway 97 about midway between 100 Mile
House and Williams Lake that is infamous for accidents. The hgiway is
the only main road in the area. I have found two alternative routes
(suitable for non-snow use) that I hope I never have to try. (Why I
looked was because of a very severe accident where a man nearly had a
shoulder ripped off.)
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
William Hyde
Apr 13, 2017, 3:06:00 PM4/13/17
to
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:36:26 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <el988o...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
> >>bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
> >>ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
> >>evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
> >>than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
> >
> >A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
> >2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
> >airport on minor roads.
>
> In 1979 Mississauga evacuated 200,000 people on short notice, a feat that
> got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
> her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
> fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
> the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
> Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
> humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
> emergency doctrines.
>
> Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
> a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
> adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
> had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
A young couple I knew drove to my parent's house (about 20 miles) and stayed a couple of days. About as undramatic as things could get.
> In article <el988o...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
> >>bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
> >>ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
> >>evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
> >>than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
> >
> >A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
> >2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
> >airport on minor roads.
>
> In 1979 Mississauga evacuated 200,000 people on short notice, a feat that
> got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
> her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
> fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
> the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
> Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
> humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
> emergency doctrines.
>
> Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
> a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
> adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
> had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
William Hyde
Peter Trei
Apr 13, 2017, 3:44:40 PM4/13/17
to
and is half a mile on a side. Its true that you won't be more than a quarter
mile from the next intersection, in one direction or the other.
Out were quarter sections are used, there are a generally a lot fewer trees
than in New England.
I describe my area as 'exurban'. Not really, really rural, but far more so
than your standard 'suburb':
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5531286,-71.864185,672m/data=!3m1!1e3
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
Apr 13, 2017, 4:30:05 PM4/13/17
to
In article <78d094ec-0f14-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
But will anybody be able to receive their signals?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Peter Trei
Apr 13, 2017, 4:40:20 PM4/13/17
to
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 4:30:05 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <78d094ec-0f14-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> >> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> >
> >GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
> >blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
> >are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
> >not connected to long wires.
>
> But will anybody be able to receive their signals?
That's unclear. A GPS receiver is a radio receiver, usually connected directly
> In article <78d094ec-0f14-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> >> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> >
> >GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
> >blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
> >are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
> >not connected to long wires.
>
> But will anybody be able to receive their signals?
to an antenna. But the induced EMP signal depends on the length of the
conductor, and a GPS antenna can be very short.
pt
Don Kuenz
Apr 13, 2017, 4:58:19 PM4/13/17
to
Fear of the Walking Dead: The American Police State Takes Aim
https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/fear_of_the_walking_dead_the_american_police_state_takes_aim
In Kansas, Governor Sam Brownback has declared October
"Zombie Preparedness Month" in an effort to help the public
prepare for a possible zombie outbreak.
In New York, researchers at Cornell University have
concluded that the best place to hide from the walking
dead is the northern Rocky Mountains region. ...
Here's the curious thing, however: while zombies may be
the personification of our darkest fears, they embody the
government's paranoia about the citizenry as potential
threats that need to be monitored, tracked, surveilled,
sequestered, deterred, vanquished and rendered impotent. ...
The zombie exercises appear to be kitschy and fun
-government agents running around trying to put down a zombie
rebellion-but what if the zombies in the exercises are us, the
citizenry, viewed by those in power as mindless, voracious,
zombie hordes?
J. Clarke
Apr 13, 2017, 11:06:41 PM4/13/17
to
In article <78d094ec-0f14-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com says...
Further, the GPS satellites _are_ military hardware and are part of the
system that provides a nuclear deterrent. I doubt that an EMP is going to
do much to them.
>
> pt
pete...@gmail.com says...
system that provides a nuclear deterrent. I doubt that an EMP is going to
do much to them.
>
> My phone one will be much less useful unless I've downloaded maps off the web,
> but the car one uses a DVD.
My car one has its maps loaded from a flash drive.
> My phone one will be much less useful unless I've downloaded maps off the web,
> but the car one uses a DVD.
>
> pt
William Hyde
Apr 14, 2017, 3:47:07 PM4/14/17
to
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
>
> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
>
> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
William Hyde
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 14, 2017, 4:39:17 PM4/14/17
to
William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:8c31a9f4-d627-4c4e...@googlegroups.com:
It's easy to predict The End Of The World And All Human
Civilization if you pick a single moment in time, and predict that
whatever current trends you can identify (or imagine) continue,
without change, indefinitely.
For instance, if you look at a particular family's finances, for
the specific week they sign the paperwork to buy a house, then
assume that they will be incuring several hundred thousand dollars
in debt _every_ week from then on, things will look pretty grim.
Many of the doom & gloom predictors have no clue they are doing
this.
Some know full well they are. They're usually the ones with a book
to sell.
news:8c31a9f4-d627-4c4e...@googlegroups.com:
Civilization if you pick a single moment in time, and predict that
whatever current trends you can identify (or imagine) continue,
without change, indefinitely.
For instance, if you look at a particular family's finances, for
the specific week they sign the paperwork to buy a house, then
assume that they will be incuring several hundred thousand dollars
in debt _every_ week from then on, things will look pretty grim.
Many of the doom & gloom predictors have no clue they are doing
this.
Some know full well they are. They're usually the ones with a book
to sell.
Lynn McGuire
Apr 14, 2017, 5:13:17 PM4/14/17
to
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
When the USA dollar goes down, the reserve currency of the world goes
down. It will not be pretty.
Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 14, 2017, 5:24:11 PM4/14/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ocrdrh$j3r$1...@dont-email.me:
> On 4/14/2017 2:47 PM, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
>> wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA
>>> is, financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget
>>> Outlook"
>>>
>>> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/repor
>>> ts/52480-ltbo.pdf
>>
>> You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many
>> occasions on which one industrialized country or another was
>> "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my
>> lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not
>> the US.
>>
>> Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents
>> of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
>>
>> The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint
>> and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end
>> of the world was regularly predicted).
>>
>> Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our
>> neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your
>> own solution.
>>
>>
>> William Hyde
>
> The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse.
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Or maybe your expectations are colored by masturbatory fantasies.
William Hyde
Apr 14, 2017, 6:44:38 PM4/14/17
to
I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.
I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.
Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!
William Hyde
leif...@dimnakorr.com
Apr 14, 2017, 9:10:36 PM4/14/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
>
> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>
story.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
No, this year for _certain_
Greg Goss
Apr 14, 2017, 9:42:29 PM4/14/17
to
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
> I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
>company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
>rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
>paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
>free but do not include many backroads.
I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
> I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
>company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
>rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
>paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
>free but do not include many backroads.
it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
into parking lot speed bumps.
The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.6122382,-116.7356037,14z
Cryptoengineer
Apr 14, 2017, 10:12:50 PM4/14/17
to
leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote in news:qZqdnf8BlfKX7mzFnZ2dnUU78I-
dn...@giganews.com:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
>> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>>
>
> Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
> story.
>
Not quite, but there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Lynn would probably find it up his alley too.
pt
dn...@giganews.com:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
>> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>>
>
> Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
> story.
>
Doctorow.
Lynn would probably find it up his alley too.
pt
Ahasuerus
Apr 15, 2017, 12:21:09 AM4/15/17
to
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Gene Wirchenko
Apr 15, 2017, 1:12:28 AM4/15/17
to
what it was like.
I was not thinking of that "back" of backroads. It is silly when
there is no alternative route to the highway.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Dimensional Traveler
Apr 15, 2017, 1:27:38 AM4/15/17
to
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
Lynn McGuire
Apr 15, 2017, 2:08:41 AM4/15/17
to
USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
that Canada did. Maybe things will change but I doubt it.
Hey, Bruce Sterling wrote a book about this, set in 2044.
https://www.amazon.com/Distraction-Bruce-Sterling/dp/0553104845/
Lynn
Gary R. Schmidt
Apr 15, 2017, 3:54:07 AM4/15/17
to
On 15/04/2017 14:27, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
> news:32cb799c-1c90-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
> It apparently appeared in an anthology called “Wastelands: Stories of
> the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
>
> For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>
Nah, that's just reality mixed with wish-fulfilment. (Back in the 1980s
I was often asked if I was or knew Simon :-) )
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
> news:32cb799c-1c90-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
> the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
>
> For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>
Nah, that's just reality mixed with wish-fulfilment. (Back in the 1980s
I was often asked if I was or knew Simon :-) )
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
William Hyde
Apr 15, 2017, 5:32:41 AM4/15/17
to
On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 2:08:41 AM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 4/14/2017 5:44 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 5:13:17 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 4/14/2017 2:47 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
> >>>> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
> >>>
> >>> You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
> >>>
> >>> Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
> >>>
> >>> The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
> >>>
> >>> Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> William Hyde
> >>
> >> The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
> >> will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
> >> alluring for many federal legislators.
> >>
> >> http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
> >
> > "The mission of the Media Research Center is to create a media culture in America where truth and liberty flourish"
> >
> > I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.
> >
> > I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.
> >
> > Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!
> >
> > William Hyde
>
> Numbers are numbers.
In engineering, maybe. In budget forecasts, rarely. And any forecast going out more than a couple of years is generally worthless. Remember "Surpluses as far as the eye can see"? But the eye couldn't see the governor of Texas.
> On 4/14/2017 5:44 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 5:13:17 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 4/14/2017 2:47 PM, William Hyde wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
> >>>> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
> >>>
> >>> You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
> >>>
> >>> Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
> >>>
> >>> The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
> >>>
> >>> Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> William Hyde
> >>
> >> The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
> >> will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
> >> alluring for many federal legislators.
> >>
> >> http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
> >
> > "The mission of the Media Research Center is to create a media culture in America where truth and liberty flourish"
> >
> > I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.
> >
> > I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.
> >
> > Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!
> >
> > William Hyde
>
> Numbers are numbers.
The USA tax receipts are at record levels.
Debt per capita and per unit of GDP is leveling off, as it usually does under democratic administrations. The next few years could be interesting, I admit.
But as Smith said, there is a lot of ruin in a nation.
The
> USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
> percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
> that Canada did.
A lot of things become easier when foreign money starts to flee the country.
William Hyde
J. Clarke
Apr 15, 2017, 8:25:04 AM4/15/17
to
In article <eoa3fc1fmkl7qhcbo...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
says...
If you follow the surface photos the Google camera car gave up after a
while.
says...
while.
Dorothy J Heydt
Apr 15, 2017, 11:15:08 AM4/15/17
to
In article <XnsA757DA4FF82...@69.16.179.42>,
>It apparently appeared in an anthology called 展astelands: Stories of
http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
>
>For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>
Terry, are you familiar with this site?
>
>For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>
http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 11:57:14 AM4/15/17
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <eoa3fc1fmkl7qhcbo...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
>says...
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:42:26 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>
>> >Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
>> >>company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
>> >>rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
>> >>paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
>> >>free but do not include many backroads.
>> >
>> >I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
>> >it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
>> >The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
>> >the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
>> >
>> >The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
>> >into parking lot speed bumps.
>> >
>> >The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
>> >motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
>> >that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
>> >
>> >Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
>> >even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
>> >https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.6122382,-116.7356037,14z
>>
>> I looked. Yow! I would not have taken that road without knowing
>> what it was like.
I didn't actually take that road. In the 80s I used to live in the
>In article <eoa3fc1fmkl7qhcbo...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
>says...
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:42:26 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>
>> >Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
>> >>company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
>> >>rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
>> >>paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
>> >>free but do not include many backroads.
>> >
>> >I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
>> >it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
>> >The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
>> >the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
>> >
>> >The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
>> >into parking lot speed bumps.
>> >
>> >The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
>> >motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
>> >that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
>> >
>> >Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
>> >even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
>> >https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.6122382,-116.7356037,14z
>>
>> I looked. Yow! I would not have taken that road without knowing
>> what it was like.
region, and I'd never heard of that road, so I wouldn't trust it now.
I took the regular "Salmo Creston".
On the other hand, my parents talked about their honeymoon in 1952.
They took the Salmo Creston Skyway that I later used many times as a
steep but routine highway, and in the fifties, ... it wasn't.
>> I was not thinking of that "back" of backroads. It is silly when
>> there is no alternative route to the highway.
>
>If you follow the surface photos the Google camera car gave up after a
>while.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:05:42 PM4/15/17
to
William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
>> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
>>
>> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
>
>You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
I like the acronym PIGS (where "I" can be Ireland or Italy, depending
>On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
>> financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
>>
>> https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
>
>You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
on the author and the date.)
The write-ups seem to be more scared of Spain than Italy. "Greece is
small. Germany could bail out Greece. But if Greece got bailed out,
then Spain would be next and nobody can afford to bail out Spain."
>Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
>
>The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:09:09 PM4/15/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
>will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
>alluring for many federal legislators.
>
>http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
>
>When the USA dollar goes down, the reserve currency of the world goes
>down. It will not be pretty.
I was a weimarist for much of the twokays. I still have a five
>The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
>will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
>alluring for many federal legislators.
>
>http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
>
>When the USA dollar goes down, the reserve currency of the world goes
>down. It will not be pretty.
billion deutchmark note framed on my desk at the gold shop.
But the US (and world) economy survived the mortgage bubble. Heck,
even the original Weimar collapse was survived, though their attempt
at "let's take something" set them back more than their financial
collapse did.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:11:17 PM4/15/17
to
leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
>> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>>
>
>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
>story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android computer
>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
>> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
>>
>
>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
>story.
running my video library next to my TV.
Linux is out there. Once when a professor mentioned Linux as a failed
idea, I pointed out that there were several dozen Linux computers in
pockets in the room, and that the non-Android phones were running on
the closely related BSD.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:11:43 PM4/15/17
to
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:12:58 PM4/15/17
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 4/14/2017 9:21 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
>>
>> Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
>>
>Post-apocalypse.
I distinguish during-apocalypse books like this one or Lucifer's
>On 4/14/2017 9:21 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
>>
>> Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
>>
>Post-apocalypse.
Hammer from post-apocalypse books like the Chrysalids.
Greg Goss
Apr 15, 2017, 12:16:31 PM4/15/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
>>> will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
>>> alluring for many federal legislators.
>
>>> The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
>>> will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
>>> alluring for many federal legislators.
>
>Numbers are numbers. The USA tax receipts are at record levels. The
>USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
>percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
>that Canada did. Maybe things will change but I doubt it.
Canada's decisions mainly involved cutting the military way back, even
>USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
>percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
>that Canada did. Maybe things will change but I doubt it.
from a fairly low starting point, and significant cutbacks on the
federal medical subsidy to the Provinces.
Under our constitution, medical issues are supposed to be run by the
provinces, but the introduction of single-payer medical coverage in
the sixties was done by the Feds offering to pay for much of it.
Depending on which province you lived in, the federal cutbacks may or
may not have hurt your medical care. My province was rich enough to
pick up the slack.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Apr 15, 2017, 12:45:06 PM4/15/17
to
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:05:37 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
>
>The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
>the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
>(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
>Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
>surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
>the dot-com bubble.
What's odd about it? Despite the idiot canards about "eventually you
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.
Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
>William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
>
>The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
>the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
>(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
>Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
>surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
>the dot-com bubble.
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.
Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
William Hyde
Apr 15, 2017, 5:11:28 PM4/15/17
to
William Hyde
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Apr 15, 2017, 5:39:27 PM4/15/17
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Apr 15, 2017, 5:45:56 PM4/15/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 12:25:24 AM4/16/17
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:ooGHL...@kithrup.com:
I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit with
no bottom.
"We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
news:ooGHL...@kithrup.com:
no bottom.
"We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 12:26:15 AM4/16/17
to
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
news:elev12...@mid.individual.net:
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
news:elev12...@mid.individual.net:
time has not yet come.
Greg Goss
Apr 16, 2017, 12:42:53 AM4/16/17
to
>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>apocalypse story.
>>
>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>apocalypse story.
>>
>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
>time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough. I haven't made a
>time has not yet come.
distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle nineties.
Quadibloc
Apr 16, 2017, 1:25:46 AM4/16/17
to
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:24:11 PM UTC-6, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Nonsense! Cold fusion, and maybe the other things too, are just what we need to
> It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
> by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
_prevent_ an economic collapse!
John Savard
Cryptoengineer
Apr 16, 2017, 1:46:21 AM4/16/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA758D9F1BB4...@69.16.179.43:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:ooGHL...@kithrup.com:
>
>> In article <XnsA757DA4FF82...@69.16.179.42>,
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
>>>news:32cb799c-1c90-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
>>>>> Doctorow.
>>>>
>>>> Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
>>>>
>>>It apparently appeared in an anthology called 展astelands:
>>>Stories of the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
>>>
>>>For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>>>
>> Terry, are you familiar with this site?
>>
>> http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
>>
>> A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
>> said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
>>
> I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit with
> no bottom.
>
> "We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
>
You can read it online. Legally: Cory has unusually (for a published
author) progresseive attitudes on copyright.
I would describe as During, and Post-Apocalyptic.
http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-
_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html
pt
news:XnsA758D9F1BB4...@69.16.179.43:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:ooGHL...@kithrup.com:
>
>> In article <XnsA757DA4FF82...@69.16.179.42>,
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
>>>news:32cb799c-1c90-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> [snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
>>>>> Doctorow.
>>>>
>>>> Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
>>>>
>>>It apparently appeared in an anthology called 展astelands:
>>>Stories of the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
>>>
>>>For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
>>>
>> Terry, are you familiar with this site?
>>
>> http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
>>
>> A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
>> said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
>>
> I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit with
> no bottom.
>
> "We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
>
author) progresseive attitudes on copyright.
I would describe as During, and Post-Apocalyptic.
http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-
_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html
pt
leif...@dimnakorr.com
Apr 16, 2017, 6:15:55 AM4/16/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
> time has not yet come.
>
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
>
> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
> time has not yet come.
>
make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
already come to an end.
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
_mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A certain breed of techno-
morlocks have been using it as a desktop OS since the late nineties, and
even back then we were dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the
Abyss with us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of tablets /
phones and Web-applications.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
J. Clarke
Apr 16, 2017, 6:50:02 AM4/16/17
to
In article <3didnZApaIXH2W7F...@giganews.com>,
leif...@dimnakorr.com says...
Tablet/laptop/desktop are all the same if they're x86. We're issued
laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking stations connected to
keyboards, mice, and dual monitors. Sometimes they move to a conference
room and are connected to a projector or large-screen monitor. They are
seldom used with their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working
from off-site.
Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech savvy are
reluctant to trust senstive information to a server that they do not
control--we may use web apps but they run on our servers and are accessible
only from inside our firewall.
As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going to need to
be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows apps, tech staff is going
to have to be retrained to support Linux, and applications developed in-
house will have to be ported and some will have to be recreated from
scratch by reverse engineering. I'm sure at this point many businesses
would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware and incessant
updates, but it just costs too much to make it happen.
leif...@dimnakorr.com says...
laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking stations connected to
keyboards, mice, and dual monitors. Sometimes they move to a conference
room and are connected to a projector or large-screen monitor. They are
seldom used with their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working
from off-site.
Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech savvy are
reluctant to trust senstive information to a server that they do not
control--we may use web apps but they run on our servers and are accessible
only from inside our firewall.
As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going to need to
be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows apps, tech staff is going
to have to be retrained to support Linux, and applications developed in-
house will have to be ported and some will have to be recreated from
scratch by reverse engineering. I'm sure at this point many businesses
would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware and incessant
updates, but it just costs too much to make it happen.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 9:16:17 PM4/16/17
to
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>
>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
> ...
>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>>whose time has not yet come.
>
> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
> I haven't
> made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle
> nineties.
>
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 9:18:15 PM4/16/17
to
Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA7591203E8...@216.166.97.131:
What Cory Doctorow has is an agenda. And since he seems to be
making a living at it, more power to him.
news:XnsA7591203E8...@216.166.97.131:
making a living at it, more power to him.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 9:19:11 PM4/16/17
to
leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote in
news:3didnZApaIXH2W7F...@giganews.com:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>> whose time has not yet come.
>>
>
> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
> some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
> Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
> time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
Heh.
news:3didnZApaIXH2W7F...@giganews.com:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>> whose time has not yet come.
>>
>
> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
> some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
> Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
> time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 9:23:17 PM4/16/17
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.335d16654...@news.eternal-september.org:
> In article <3didnZApaIXH2W7F...@giganews.com>,
> leif...@dimnakorr.com says...
>>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
>> > idea whose time has not yet come.
>> >
>>
>> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
>> some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
>> Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
>> time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
>>
>> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
>> about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A
>> certain breed of techno- morlocks have been using it as a
>> desktop OS since the late nineties, and even back then we were
>> dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the Abyss with
>> us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
>> abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of
>> tablets / phones and Web-applications.
>
> Tablet/laptop/desktop are all the same if they're x86.
Laptops and Desktops, more or less. Tablets are a fundamentally
different beast, when the primary interface is the touchscreen.
> We're
> issued laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking
> stations connected to keyboards, mice, and dual monitors.
> Sometimes they move to a conference room and are connected to a
> projector or large-screen monitor. They are seldom used with
> their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working from
> off-site.
>
> Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech
> savvy are reluctant to trust senstive information to a server
> that they do not control--we may use web apps but they run on
> our servers and are accessible only from inside our firewall.
The cloud is greatly overrated, and regularly makes the news for
the various failure modes it has.
either don't give a shit about usability, are absolutely convinced
that they, and only they, know what everyone wants in an interface,
or are actively hostile to the idea of "just anybody" being able to
use it (thus, eliminating the only thing that makes them feel
special.)
>I'm sure at this point many businesses
> would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware
> and incessant updates, but it just costs too much to make it
> happen.
>
For values of "costs too much" that amount to "impossible for all
practical purposes."
news:MPG.335d16654...@news.eternal-september.org:
> In article <3didnZApaIXH2W7F...@giganews.com>,
> leif...@dimnakorr.com says...
>>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
>> > idea whose time has not yet come.
>> >
>>
>> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
>> some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
>> Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
>> time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
>>
>> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
>> about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A
>> certain breed of techno- morlocks have been using it as a
>> desktop OS since the late nineties, and even back then we were
>> dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the Abyss with
>> us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
>> abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of
>> tablets / phones and Web-applications.
>
> Tablet/laptop/desktop are all the same if they're x86.
different beast, when the primary interface is the touchscreen.
> We're
> issued laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking
> stations connected to keyboards, mice, and dual monitors.
> Sometimes they move to a conference room and are connected to a
> projector or large-screen monitor. They are seldom used with
> their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working from
> off-site.
>
> Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech
> savvy are reluctant to trust senstive information to a server
> that they do not control--we may use web apps but they run on
> our servers and are accessible only from inside our firewall.
the various failure modes it has.
>
> As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going
> to need to be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows
> apps, tech staff is going to have to be retrained to support
> Linux, and applications developed in- house will have to be
> ported and some will have to be recreated from scratch by
> reverse engineering.
No, the problme with Linux is that it's supported by people who
> As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going
> to need to be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows
> apps, tech staff is going to have to be retrained to support
> Linux, and applications developed in- house will have to be
> ported and some will have to be recreated from scratch by
> reverse engineering.
either don't give a shit about usability, are absolutely convinced
that they, and only they, know what everyone wants in an interface,
or are actively hostile to the idea of "just anybody" being able to
use it (thus, eliminating the only thing that makes them feel
special.)
>I'm sure at this point many businesses
> would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware
> and incessant updates, but it just costs too much to make it
> happen.
>
practical purposes."
Cryptoengineer
Apr 16, 2017, 9:26:53 PM4/16/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA759B9DC89A...@69.16.179.43:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>
>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>> ...
>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>>>whose time has not yet come.
>>
>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>
> It's not especially common on those, either.
>
>> I haven't
>> made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle
>> nineties.
>>
> But then, you're an idiot.
Its certainly true that "user" desktops, whether actual desktop machines,
or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend to run Windows or
macOS in preference to Linux.
However, once you go a step back, to the servers, and all the other
machines that aren't directly in contact with users, Linux and variants
are the norm. I myself mostly work on Linux machines, although my laptop
runs Windows; that's simply convenient for email and web browsing, while
most of my 'real work' is done ssh'd into various Linux machines; I also
have a Centos VM which I can run on the laptop.
All of my personal machines dual boot, for similar reasons.
[But yeah, I'm a developer]
pt
news:XnsA759B9DC89A...@69.16.179.43:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
> news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>
>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>> ...
>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>>>whose time has not yet come.
>>
>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>
> It's not especially common on those, either.
>
>> I haven't
>> made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle
>> nineties.
>>
> But then, you're an idiot.
or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend to run Windows or
macOS in preference to Linux.
However, once you go a step back, to the servers, and all the other
machines that aren't directly in contact with users, Linux and variants
are the norm. I myself mostly work on Linux machines, although my laptop
runs Windows; that's simply convenient for email and web browsing, while
most of my 'real work' is done ssh'd into various Linux machines; I also
have a Centos VM which I can run on the laptop.
All of my personal machines dual boot, for similar reasons.
[But yeah, I'm a developer]
pt
Lynn McGuire
Apr 16, 2017, 10:15:59 PM4/16/17
to
On 4/16/2017 5:15 AM, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
>> time has not yet come.
>>
>
> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
> make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
> not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
> already come to an end.
...
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
>> time has not yet come.
>>
>
> Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
> make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
> not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
> already come to an end.
The desktop is leaving the mainstream and going into specialized work
for content creators (engineers, accountants, architects, etc, etc, etc)
and gamers. I am wondering when the desktop prices will start to rise
to reflect the lessor usage as the downward price drivers will finish
moving to internet devices (smartphones, tablets, maybe laptops).
Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 11:06:28 PM4/16/17
to
Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA759DA2B33...@216.166.97.131:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:XnsA759B9DC89A...@69.16.179.43:
>
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>> news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>>> ...
>>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
>>>>idea whose time has not yet come.
>>>
>>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>>
>> It's not especially common on those, either.
>>
>>> I haven't
>>> made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the
>>> middle nineties.
>>>
>> But then, you're an idiot.
>
> Its certainly true that "user" desktops, whether actual desktop
> machines, or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend
> to run Windows or macOS in preference to Linux.
Tend to? Linux has never even come close to double digit
percentages. Hell, "Other" outranks it by 2:1.
for the ordinary user - the overwhelming majority of humanity -
Linux is not, never has been, and is unlikely to ever be, useful.
news:XnsA759DA2B33...@216.166.97.131:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:XnsA759B9DC89A...@69.16.179.43:
>
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>> news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>>> ...
>>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
>>>>idea whose time has not yet come.
>>>
>>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>>
>> It's not especially common on those, either.
>>
>>> I haven't
>>> made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the
>>> middle nineties.
>>>
>> But then, you're an idiot.
>
> Its certainly true that "user" desktops, whether actual desktop
> machines, or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend
> to run Windows or macOS in preference to Linux.
percentages. Hell, "Other" outranks it by 2:1.
>
> However, once you go a step back, to the servers,
you are no longer talking about the desktop. Dance all you want,
> However, once you go a step back, to the servers,
for the ordinary user - the overwhelming majority of humanity -
Linux is not, never has been, and is unlikely to ever be, useful.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 16, 2017, 11:07:20 PM4/16/17
to
Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:od18b1$k6f$1...@dont-email.me:
Probably right after that collapse of all civilication you wank over
every night.
news:od18b1$k6f$1...@dont-email.me:
every night.
Greg Goss
Apr 17, 2017, 12:11:59 AM4/17/17
to
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>
>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>> ...
>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>>>whose time has not yet come.
>>
>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>
>It's not especially common on those, either.
That's why I specified "chromebooks".
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>news:elgb2b...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in
>>>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
>>>>>apocalypse story.
>>>>
>>>> I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
>>>> computer running my video library next to my TV.
>> ...
>>>None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
>>>whose time has not yet come.
>>
>> I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
>
>It's not especially common on those, either.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 17, 2017, 1:37:31 AM4/17/17
to
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:elitkdFt67pU2
@mid.individual.net:
Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
@mid.individual.net:
Gary R. Schmidt
Apr 17, 2017, 4:44:07 AM4/17/17
to
always[1] commanded a price premium over a generic peecee. Even Dell
makes them.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
1 - For values of always that take into account the destruction of the
market for non-x86-based workstations by the ubiquity of x86-based
solutions.
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Quadibloc
Apr 18, 2017, 3:48:13 AM4/18/17
to
On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
> _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with forced updates
> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
> _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
on Windows 10, and the extent to which the Macintosh has been fading into
obscurity, means that there's still hope for Linux yet.
Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 18, 2017, 11:55:10 AM4/18/17
to
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:6a2f1aa2-5500-4c92...@googlegroups.com:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6,
> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
>> about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
>
> Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with
> forced updates on Windows 10, and the extent to which the
> Macintosh has been fading into obscurity, means that there's
> still hope for Linux yet.
There's certainly a desperate need, but Linux is doing nothing to
meet it so far.
news:6a2f1aa2-5500-4c92...@googlegroups.com:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6,
> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>> The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
>> about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
>
> Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with
> forced updates on Windows 10, and the extent to which the
> Macintosh has been fading into obscurity, means that there's
> still hope for Linux yet.
meet it so far.
>
> Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
>
Me either.
> Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
>
Mark Bestley
Apr 18, 2017, 1:09:21 PM4/18/17
to
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
> > The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
> > _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
>
> Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with forced updates
> on Windows 10, and the extent to which the Macintosh has been fading into
> obscurity, means that there's still hope for Linux yet.
>
Macintosh share of desktop/laptop is actually increasing.
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
> > The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
> > _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
>
> Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with forced updates
> on Windows 10, and the extent to which the Macintosh has been fading into
> obscurity, means that there's still hope for Linux yet.
>
> Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
>
> John Savard
Mark
larry
Apr 19, 2017, 7:57:01 PM4/19/17
to
On 2017-04-13, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
> a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
> adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
> had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
> Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
> a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
> adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
> had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
Peter Trei
Apr 20, 2017, 8:58:39 AM4/20/17
to
at home)?? Bleve? all that comes to mind is 'Boiling Liquid Explosive
Vapor Event' (ie, what happens when an LNG tank ruptures). Near Toronto?
When was this?
pt
larry
Apr 21, 2017, 8:22:09 AM4/21/17
to
On 2017-04-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:elitkdFt67pU2
> @mid.individual.net:
chromebooks on two week-loans, and our public school
boards, who loan chromebooks for the school year to
students, have confidence in linux.
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:elitkdFt67pU2
> @mid.individual.net:
>> That's why I specified "chromebooks".
>>
> Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
>
That varies - both our local libraries, which loan
>>
> Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
>
chromebooks on two week-loans, and our public school
boards, who loan chromebooks for the school year to
students, have confidence in linux.
Greg Goss
Apr 21, 2017, 9:58:45 AM4/21/17
to
Peter Trei
Apr 21, 2017, 10:59:06 AM4/21/17
to
Stormstayed seems to be roughly equivalent to 'snowbound'.
pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Apr 21, 2017, 12:17:51 PM4/21/17
to
larry <ljm...@wightman.ca> wrote in
news:odctbh$urj$1...@dont-email.me:
And Apple used to be ubiquitious in schools, because they made deal-
deals with them. But they were still a single digit percentage of the
overall market. So are Chromebooks, as far as I can tell.
news:odctbh$urj$1...@dont-email.me:
deals with them. But they were still a single digit percentage of the
overall market. So are Chromebooks, as far as I can tell.
larry
Apr 24, 2017, 4:48:41 PM4/24/17
to
the surprise overnight guest in a friend or family members' house
because of unexpectedly early/strong winter storm or other act of god.
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