Sandwiches and "bread grease"...

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
drink something with it.

The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
routine basis.

Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> [...] which again surprised me since

> butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
> drink something with it.
>

I'd say it's because water makes bread soggy, and some people find the
texture of soggy bread unappealing. Plus, if you're used to buttering
your bread, unbuttered bread taste "flat".

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Fri, 08 May 2015 07:27:51 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>drink something with it.
>
> The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
>people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
>routine basis.
>
> Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?

UK based here. We do that.

Sandwiches are a bit of a special case, as they're often portable food -
eating and drinking on the go uses two or more hands, or is a PITA, so
they're often made greasier. Wetter wouldn't work, because wet migrates
into the bread and disintegrates it, while butter (etc) doesn't. "Moist"
qualities in food almost always means oilier, and particularly for
flour-based sponges like bread, cakes and patisserie items. Don't get
hung up on moist==watery.

Also, places outside America may use drier sandwich fillings than you
expect - USA is addicted to mayo and derivatives (slaw, loads of other
oily+wet dressings), while other places are not so much. The meats too
will often be relatively low fat and will need re-oleaginating for
flavour (yeah, this is dumb).

In other words it ain't just the sandwhich, it's the wider surrounding
food culture that you need to take a look at.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
There are no normal people--only people you don't know very much about.
-- Nancy Lebovitz, rasfw

[David Johnston]

On 5/8/2015 5:27 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc
> -- about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham
> sandwiches, and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to
> make the sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me
> since butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't
> just drink something with it.
>

Some people don't enjoy that lump in their throat even if it only lasts
as long as it takes to pick up your glass.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <mii6hn$p44$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>drink something with it.

The quality of "moistness" in bread or pastry products is largely a
product of how much fat is in it. A cake that is delicious and moist
is made with oil and/or butter.

--
David Goldfarb |"Come on, characters with super-strength don't
goldf...@gmail.com | *do* inertia! Or leverage."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dani Zweig

[Greg Goss]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>

> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>drink something with it.
>
> The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
>people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
>routine basis.
>
> Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?

There's also the fact (impression?) that most of us eat soft factory
bread that's pretty moist to start with.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <no1w0...@kithrup.com>,

David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <mii6hn$p44$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>>drink something with it.
>
>The quality of "moistness" in bread or pastry products is largely a
>product of how much fat is in it. A cake that is delicious and moist
>is made with oil and/or butter.

True. I have a classic poundcake recipe that is made of butter,
sugar, eggs, and flour, with maybe a little vanilla or rosewater.
NO MILK.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[JRStern]

On Fri, 08 May 2015 07:27:51 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>drink something with it.
>
> The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
>people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
>routine basis.
>
> Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?

A sandwich was originally at least a convenience food, where you might
not be focusing both hands on eating, and it might take you thirty
seconds to put down the sandwich, reach for a drink, and get some
down. And I don't know how many people would add water to a mouth
full of half-chewed sandwich.

I think mayo or other more liquid condiments are more common than
butter on meat sandwiches. Of course butter and some of those others
also helps water-proof the bread from condensation or other juices off
the meat, getting the balance right is both art and science.

J.

[Kevrob]

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <no1w0...@kithrup.com>,
> David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <mii6hn$p44$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
> >>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
> >>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
> >>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
> >>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
> >>drink something with it.
> >
> >The quality of "moistness" in bread or pastry products is largely a
> >product of how much fat is in it. A cake that is delicious and moist
> >is made with oil and/or butter.
>
> True. I have a classic poundcake recipe that is made of butter,
> sugar, eggs, and flour, with maybe a little vanilla or rosewater.
> NO MILK.
>

People make "cake" without _flour_.

I don't know if I'd call it cake, but it can taste good.

In my family, we rarely "buttered" bread for sandwiches. Put mayo
(or Miracle Whip} on it? Yes, but I never cared for either MW or
most commercially prepared mayo. I'd suffer it as a binder for tuna
fish or ham salad, but if I was having sliced deli meat w/or w/o
cheese, I'd take mine with spicy brown mustard.

I think we didn't bother with the butter because we used margarine in
our house, so what would be the point. I always relished the times we
has a meal at a restaurant or a do at the local church, with real butter!
We knew what we were missing.

Also, while we're Irish-American, we were exposed to enough good Jewish deli
that keeping the dairy away from the meat seemed normal.

For all I know, I was getting pastrami sandwiches slathered in the cheap stuff.
Most of it is kosher, and pareve. Some Jews don't like it, though.

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/116495/just-say-no-to-margarine

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <86aa024a-8f9a-4e36...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>In my family, we rarely "buttered" bread for sandwiches. Put mayo
>(or Miracle Whip} on it? Yes, but I never cared for either MW or
>most commercially prepared mayo. I'd suffer it as a binder for tuna
>fish or ham salad, but if I was having sliced deli meat w/or w/o
>cheese, I'd take mine with spicy brown mustard.

>I think we didn't bother with the butter because we used margarine in
>our house, so what would be the point. I always relished the times we
>has a meal at a restaurant or a do at the local church, with real butter!
>We knew what we were missing.
>

My mother and I ate mayo. My father ate Miracle Whip. There was
the occasional resonating cry of disgust when a member of one
camp discovered s/he had put the wrong stuff on the sandwich and
bitten into it. The alternative to these spreads was margarine.
Butter? Too expensive. Margarine was flavorless grease, but it
was cheap. And in the very early days, right after WWII, you had
to buy margarine in a flexible plastic pack, white, with a yellow
color capsule in the middle. You squeezed the capsule to break
it, and then kneaded the margarine till it was uniformly colored.
This was on account of pressure from the dairy lobbyists, not to
let anyone mistake margarine for butter (at least, not until they
had bought it and tasted it, by which time it was too late.

[Kevrob]

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 9:45:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <86aa024a-8f9a-4e36...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >In my family, we rarely "buttered" bread for sandwiches. Put mayo
> >(or Miracle Whip} on it? Yes, but I never cared for either MW or
> >most commercially prepared mayo. I'd suffer it as a binder for tuna
> >fish or ham salad, but if I was having sliced deli meat w/or w/o
> >cheese, I'd take mine with spicy brown mustard.
>
> >I think we didn't bother with the butter because we used margarine in
> >our house, so what would be the point. I always relished the times we
> >has a meal at a restaurant or a do at the local church, with real butter!
> >We knew what we were missing.
> >
> My mother and I ate mayo. My father ate Miracle Whip. There was
> the occasional resonating cry of disgust when a member of one
> camp discovered s/he had put the wrong stuff on the sandwich and
> bitten into it. The alternative to these spreads was margarine.
> Butter? Too expensive. Margarine was flavorless grease, but it
> was cheap. And in the very early days, right after WWII, you had
> to buy margarine in a flexible plastic pack, white, with a yellow
> color capsule in the middle. You squeezed the capsule to break
> it, and then kneaded the margarine till it was uniformly colored.
> This was on account of pressure from the dairy lobbyists, not to
> let anyone mistake margarine for butter (at least, not until they
> had bought it and tasted it, by which time it was too late.
> >
> >

When I enrolled at Marquette in 1974, yellow-colored oleo had only
been legal in Wisconsin for 7 years.

http://erikajanik.com/2013/04/18/butter-rules-at-least-in-wisconsin/

I once met Gov Knowles, mentioned in the article.

I heard tales from older residents of the Badger State about smuggling
colored spread in from Illinois. They made it sound like running rum.

Kevin R

[Robert Bannister]

On 9/05/2015 9:02 am, JRStern wrote:

> I think mayo or other more liquid condiments are more common than
> butter on meat sandwiches. Of course butter and some of those others
> also helps water-proof the bread from condensation or other juices off
> the meat, getting the balance right is both art and science.

I don't know about Canada, but I think this mayo and no spread or butter
is strictly USA. I don't "butter" my bread for some oily foods like
bacon, sausage or cheese, but I do for salami and ham.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Kevrob]

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 10:39:41 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 9/05/2015 9:02 am, JRStern wrote:
>
> > I think mayo or other more liquid condiments are more common than
> > butter on meat sandwiches. Of course butter and some of those others
> > also helps water-proof the bread from condensation or other juices off
> > the meat, getting the balance right is both art and science.
>
> I don't know about Canada, but I think this mayo and no spread or butter
> is strictly USA. I don't "butter" my bread for some oily foods like
> bacon, sausage or cheese, but I do for salami and ham.
> --

ObSF: What did Arthur Dent use when making Perfectly Normal Beast sandwiches?

Kevin R

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <90nqka5q5p0n1j1rr...@4ax.com>,

JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 May 2015 07:27:51 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
><sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>>about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>>and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>>sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>>butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>>drink something with it.
>>
>> The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
>>people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
>>routine basis.
>>
>> Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?
>
>A sandwich was originally at least a convenience food, where you might
>not be focusing both hands on eating, and it might take you thirty
>seconds to put down the sandwich, reach for a drink, and get some
>down. And I don't know how many people would add water to a mouth
>full of half-chewed sandwich.
>

The best cheese sandwich I ever had was in Paris. In retrospect
this is not surprising because: bread, cheese. I considered a
cheese sandwich such an American thing though that at that time
it *did* surprise me. But, my point, which I am eventually
getting to, is that we got the *major* stinkeye from the restaurant
staff when we sat down at a table to eat our cheese sandwiches.
Apparently sandwiches are stand-up food, and you do not sully
a table with their presence, or your presence eating one.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Kevrob]

You are Jerry Horne from Twin Peaks and I claim my cinq /f/r/a/n/c/s/ euro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6N-YmGuiGw

I would definitely try a French-made Croque Monsieur.

Kevin R

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <72d115e6-3b78-46ca...@googlegroups.com>,

Heh. Curiously I never saw an episode of "Twin Peaks", but I was
updating my two blog entries on Columbia's "Twin Peaks" just before
I read your post:

http://columbiaclosings.com/wordpress/?p=11

http://columbiaclosings.com/wordpress/?p=7181

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Fri, 8 May 2015 22:02:38 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>I would definitely try a French-made Croque Monsieur.

I've eaten one. It was delicious.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[William Vetter]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <no1w0...@kithrup.com>,
> David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <mii6hn$p44$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
>>> about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
>>> and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
>>> sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
>>> butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
>>> drink something with it.
>>
>> The quality of "moistness" in bread or pastry products is largely a
>> product of how much fat is in it. A cake that is delicious and moist
>> is made with oil and/or butter.
>
> True. I have a classic poundcake recipe that is made of butter,
> sugar, eggs, and flour, with maybe a little vanilla or rosewater.
> NO MILK.

There are breads with no oil, lard, bacon grease, shortening, butter,
or oleo involved in their formulae. Sometimes the fat is replaced by
egg. Nearly all quickbreads use some type of fat or egg. I believe
the purpose is to bind the flour together while the baking powder
undergoes its inorganic chemical reaction to generate gas. The flour
needs to be about >10% protein for it to rise as leavened bread without
the fat in it, in my understanding. This is because the gluten is a
more or less linear protein that must be enough to form a network to
trap the CO2 excreted by the yeast.

All-Purpose flour you get in the supermarket is about 9%, and the
biscuit flour sold in the Southern US tends to be about 8%. Sacks of
flour labeled as "Bread Flour" should have 12 to 13% gluten/glutenin,
the two proteins in flour.

Most of the protein in wheat exists in the germ, and the other
digestible part of the wheat grain is the endosperm, which is mainly
starch. The percentage of protein is then, the ratio of wheat germ
that is ground into the flour. Anything you see that says
"Gluten-Free" on the package should have had all of the germ separated
from the flour to leave starch. The flour with the highest protein
content tends to be the most expensive. When used as a thickener,
therefore, the cheapest flour is as good as any.

If you want bread to rise without baking powder, you want to get the
Bread Flour, and add Activated Yeast to it, or add a little lump of
leavened dough to it that you've cultivated since the day before. (I
have never done this successfully.)

The protein content of bread can be increased further by adding the
powder of soybeans or other pulses. The bread will still rise if you
add up to about 15% more.

There are breads that involve neither fat or egg and don't rise by
virtue of yeast or powder. These include cornmeal hoecake, matzoh,
tortilla.

Flour's raison d'etre is that wheat grains must be boiled perhaps 3
hours to become edible; whereas, grains like millet or sorghum, which
were available prior to wheat's agricultural revolution, turn into a
porridge after boiling about 15min. Therefore, wheat is ground to a
powder to be cooked as bread or noodles. I think that many people go
through their lives unaware of this.

Such is the level of my understanding of the process. What Americans
like to eat, or what marketing campaigns have taught them to eat, is
something else.

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are breads with no oil, lard, bacon grease, shortening, butter,
> or oleo involved in their formulae.

Well, yes. The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is wheat
flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for taste.)

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Shawn Wilson]

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 4:27:54 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
> about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
> and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
> sandwich "moist enough" to swallow; which again surprised me since
> butter is mostly oil, not water, so not moist, and why they didn't just
> drink something with it.
>
> The answers there indicated to me that at least in some localities,
> people didn't have stuff to drink during at least some meals on a
> routine basis.
>
> Is this or was this correct? Is it still the case, and where?

I always thought the 'oil' (butter, mayo) was to keep the bread from getting soggy from wet ingredients, at least I've seen TV cooks recommend it. In addition to its value as a condiment of course.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <-vadnZ3s3ciVqNPI...@giganews.com>,

My uncle had a recipie where you just pour a bottle of beer into
a loaf-pan of self-rising flour, stir and bake. Great bread!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <-vadnZ3s3ciVqNPI...@giganews.com>,
<leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:

And I've made bread, from scratch, when only those ingredients
were available. (Actually, I made small rolls, because no bread
pans were available in the kitchen I was using, only a largish
(10 x 15 inches, maybe?) flat pan.) It was sufficiently edible
that the crowd ate it up in short orcer.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cr70n8...@mid.individual.net>,

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <-vadnZ3s3ciVqNPI...@giganews.com>,
> <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
>>William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There are breads with no oil, lard, bacon grease, shortening, butter,
>>> or oleo involved in their formulae.
>>
>>Well, yes. The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is wheat
>>flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for taste.)
>>
>>--
>>Leif Roar Moldskred
>
>My uncle had a recipie where you just pour a bottle of beer into
>a loaf-pan of self-rising flour, stir and bake. Great bread!

Yeah, but self-rising flour has baking powder mixed into it. Not
being a beer expert, I have no idea whether your uncle's bottle
of beer had any live _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_ in it, or whether
it only provided liquid and flavor.

I once worked in the biochemistry department of a large
university, where it was the custom for the graduate students
(who were all way over 21) to meet on the flat roof of the
building for a beer bash on Friday afternoons. They would put up
posters to advertise this shindig; but they were forbidden by the
administration to mention the word "beer". They used various
workarounds; my favorite was the one that showed four pictures: a
small bundle of barley on the stalk; a bunch of hop blossoms, a
diagram of a water molecule, and a photomicrograph of _S.
cerevisiae_. And the words "Barker Hall roof, Friday, 5 p.m."

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <no3Hz...@kithrup.com>,

No, I don't think the beer yeast had anything to do with
the rising, I was just confirming the

no oil, lard, bacon grease, shortening, butter,
or oleo involved

thing. Dang, now I've gotta go and find that recipie. Well,
I guess actually all I need to do is figure out the amount
of flour involved..

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>

> And I've made bread, from scratch, when only those ingredients
> were available. (Actually, I made small rolls, because no bread
> pans were available in the kitchen I was using, only a largish
> (10 x 15 inches, maybe?) flat pan.) It was sufficiently edible
> that the crowd ate it up in short orcer.
>

I've got two such loaves in the oven at this very moment, actually.
Well, in addition to flour, water, yeast and salt I _did_ also use
whole and crushed wheat kernels in those, but that's just for added
texture and taste.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cr73ve...@mid.individual.net>,

If you're using self-rising, that could be important. If not --
I mean, if you couldn't get s-r-f for some reason (I've never
seen it in markets in California), and added yeast instead, then
bread is a *very* forgiving recipe. Proof about 1 tablespoon
yeast (or, a pile that will fit comfortably in the palm of your
hand) with about the same amoung of sugar (to feed the yeast) and
maybe half a cup in water. When it's filled the cup and is
bubbling, put it in a bowl with a bunch of flour (a pound
maybe?), add some water, stir till you've got a mixture that's
just stiff enough that it will absorb all the flour and you can
knead it. If it's too wet, add flour. If it's too stiff, add
water (cautiously). Once you've baked bread a few times before,
as I gather you have, you know how it out to look & feel, and
Bob's your uncle.

Bread's the diametrical opposite of snickerdoodles, which have to
be measured *exactly*, including sifting the flour, spooning it
gently into the measuring cup, and carefully scraping any excess
off the top of the cup with the dull side of a knife. Err in
either direction, and you'll get either a lot of pancakes or a
lot of little hard lumps.

I dare say doing it that way and then weighing the resulting
flour and noting the weight in grams, would make it easier for
subsequent times around. I have never done that.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <sOmdnYG4tuNwwdPI...@giganews.com>,

And I bet it'll be yummy.

/sigh

I can't eat bread any more: too many carbohydrates. I make a
sort of crumpet from flaxmeal (and add Vital Wheat Gluten to it
to make it rise).

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 8 May 2015 18:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:86aa024a-8f9a-4e36...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> In my family, we rarely "buttered" bread for sandwiches. [...]

> I think we didn't bother with the butter because we used
> margarine in our house, so what would be the point.

The point would be the lubrication. We also used margarine
-- couldn’t afford butter -- and it was the automatic first
layer of any sandwich.

To this day I prefer cookies made with margarine to cookies
made with butter: the latter are too rich and just don’t
taste right.

> I always relished the times we has a meal at a restaurant
> or a do at the local church, with real butter! We knew
> what we were missing.

So did we. Butter was a treat, and on the rare occasions
when we got it, it was eaten on bread or rolls by itself,
not wasted on sandwiches.

[...]

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[William Vetter]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <cr73ve...@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <no3Hz...@kithrup.com>,
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
> If you're using self-rising, that could be important. If not --
> I mean, if you couldn't get s-r-f for some reason (I've never
> seen it in markets in California),

It will say "SR Flour" on the paper bag. It's perhaps 1Tbsn baking
powder per 1Cup flour. The disadvantage is that if the flour gets
damp, the powder will start to react in storage. I prefer to buy the
powder in a sealed can.

A fundamental difference between making quickbread and leavened bread
is that the baking powder is a chemical reaction that starts when you
pour water or milk into the mixing bowl. The yeast does its
biochemical reaction much more slowly at room temperature, and then
picks up when it's incubated in an oven. The purpose of the kneading
is to fold the layers of gluten molecules in the dough over themselves
to create a netted structure that traps the CO2 excreted by the yeast.
Thus, the bread rises. This doesn't happen with bread made with baking
powder. You want to knead it as little as possible, perhaps only four
times, to mix and shape the dough, then perhaps flatten it with a
rolling pin and cut it into shapes. You want to knead it briefly and
quickly and get it done before the chemical reaction progresses.

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A fundamental difference between making quickbread and leavened bread
> is that the baking powder is a chemical reaction that starts when you
> pour water or milk into the mixing bowl. The yeast does its
> biochemical reaction much more slowly at room temperature, and then
> picks up when it's incubated in an oven.

And then you have salt-leavened bread which uses yet another, somewhat
disquieting agent for leavening:

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/clostridium-it-can-kill-you-or-it-can-make-you-bread

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Cryptoengineer]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in
news:l5arkal59kc2ifjl7...@reader80.eternal-september.org:

> On Fri, 8 May 2015 22:02:38 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I would definitely try a French-made Croque Monsieur.
>
> I've eaten one. It was delicious.

They are popular to the point that there are special
purpose kitchen appliances to make them, similar to
an electric waffle iron. We had one when I lived in
Belgium.

pt

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>it was the custom for the graduate students
>(who were all way over 21) to meet on the flat roof of the
>building for a beer bash on Friday afternoons. They would put up
>posters to advertise this shindig; but they were forbidden by the
>administration to mention the word "beer". They used various
>workarounds; my favorite was the one that showed four pictures: a
>small bundle of barley on the stalk; a bunch of hop blossoms, a
>diagram of a water molecule, and a photomicrograph of _S.
>cerevisiae_. And the words "Barker Hall roof, Friday, 5 p.m."

When I went to university, the event licensing prohibited advertising
alcohol. The standard workaround was to replace one of the vowels
with "Z". Thus all the parties had bzzr, and some of them went all
out and had lzquor or liquzr as well.

This seems to violate the whole idea of banning advertising of alcohol
for these events, but there didn't seem to be any objection from the
licensing authorities.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA495D57E8E...@216.166.97.131>,
treif...@gmail.com says...

Reading the wikipedia entry one gets the impression that it's an
upmarket Egg McMuffin.

[Robert Bannister]

"Three knives altogether were required. First there was the knife for
the slicing of the bread: a firm, authoritative blade which imposed a
clear and defining will on a loaf. Then there was the butter-spreading
knife, which was a whippy little number but still with a firm backbone
to it. Early versions had been a little too whippy, but now the
combination of flexibility with a core of strength was exactly right to
achieve the maximum smoothness and grace of spread."

So, quite clearly the answer is butter, otherwise a mayo-spreading or
spread-spreading knife would have been used.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:25:44 -0500, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:

> The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is wheat
> flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for taste.)

And if I forget the salt, the bread comes out just fine, but my spouse
complains.


--
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ -- needlework
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[JRStern]

Was that before the George Foreman grills?

J.


>
>pt

[Don Bruder]

In article <qvftkahi3409pua21...@4ax.com>,

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:25:44 -0500, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
> > The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is wheat
> > flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for taste.)
>
> And if I forget the salt, the bread comes out just fine, but my spouse
> complains.

As far as looks, it may come out fine, but flavor and texture-wise, I'd
rather butter a piece of paper towel and eat that than a slice of
salt-free bread. (But so far as I know, I ain't your spouse! :) )

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <milsp1$j43$1...@dont-email.me>,

William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>It will say "SR Flour" on the paper bag. It's perhaps 1Tbsn baking
>powder per 1Cup flour.

That's what I've been told, yes.

> The disadvantage is that if the flour gets
>damp, the powder will start to react in storage. I prefer to buy the
>powder in a sealed can.
>
>A fundamental difference between making quickbread and leavened bread
>is that the baking powder is a chemical reaction that starts when you
>pour water or milk into the mixing bowl.

Or, if you're using baking *soda*, when something acidic is
added. My husband has a pancake batter recipe that uses both
baking powder and baking soda, and we sour the milk by putting a
splash of vinegar into it. (We can't eat it any more because we
both have diabetes, but oh well.)

> The yeast does its
>biochemical reaction much more slowly at room temperature,

More quickly if it's kept warm. When I'm making yeast breads I
put them on an electric heating pad; but my daughter sometimes
uses my AEbleskiver recipe at SCA tournaments, in which case she
puts the batter into a ziploc bag, seals it carefully, belts her
tunic tightly, and puts it into her bosom to proof. :)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <a9Cdna934NVpH9PI...@giganews.com>,

Interesting. I've heard of salt breads, never tried them. I've
saved your link to disk to look at another time; thanks.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <qvftkahi3409pua21...@4ax.com>,
Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:25:44 -0500, leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>> The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is wheat
>> flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for taste.)
>
>And if I forget the salt, the bread comes out just fine, but my spouse
>complains.

One of M.F.K. Fischer's essays on cookery tells of a woman who
had to make saltless bread (husband with hypertension) and rather
liked it once she got used to it; said it tasted sweet and nutty,
or something like that. I would have to look it up.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cr7u0s...@mid.individual.net>,

Okay, and what was the third knife?

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Really not what it tastes like.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <cr7os4...@mid.individual.net>,

I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed it was for legal reasons
that convience stores in the area used to advertise "Cold Beverages On Sunday".

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 09 May 2015 23:21:43 -0300, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote
in<news:qvftkahi3409pua21...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:25:44 -0500,
> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:

>> The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is
>> wheat flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for
>> taste.)

> And if I forget the salt, the bread comes out just fine,
> but my spouse complains.

Remembering the few occasions when my mother was sleepy
enough to forget to add the (small) amount of salt normally
used in the hot cereal that we usually had for breakfast,
I’m strongly inclined to sympathize with him.

Brian
--
Using her breasts as a shelf was the most practical thing
Helene had done all day. -- Meljean Brook, _The Kraken
King_

[Kevrob]

I dunno. I've seen electric panini presses in the stores.
Same principle?

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

By process of elimination, and fuzzy memory, for slicing PNBeast?

Kevin R

[William Vetter]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <milsp1$j43$1...@dont-email.me>,
> William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A fundamental difference between making quickbread and leavened bread
>> is that the baking powder is a chemical reaction that starts when you
>> pour water or milk into the mixing bowl.
>
> Or, if you're using baking *soda*, when something acidic is
> added. My husband has a pancake batter recipe that uses both
> baking powder and baking soda, and we sour the milk by putting a
> splash of vinegar into it.

It's pretty much the lactic acid in milk in recipes with soda. With
baking powder the weak acid is either an aluminum hydrophosphate (many
brand names of powder), or a calcium hydrophosphate (recipe named after
Lord Rumford). Raw vinegar (1% acetic acid) added to flour is kinda a
strong acid for that -- it will just make the baking soda fizz. You'd
want to mix it with the milk separately.

>
>> The yeast does its
>> biochemical reaction much more slowly at room temperature,
>
> More quickly if it's kept warm.

"Kept warm" is higher than RT, near 30degreesC. The general rule in
chemical kinetics is reaction is 3X faster for every 10degreesC
increase. That comes from Arrhenius Equation for rate constants.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <7c36db79-2d21-47c4...@googlegroups.com>,

Sorry, I don't think I've ever read what you're not remembering
... what's PNBeast?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cr8c76...@mid.individual.net>,

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:

Yeah, ancient "blue laws." As was recently pointed out in
Nebraska, religious observance is not the business of the courts.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <12a093mym56fu.1dxz0qmev0bh7$.d...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 09 May 2015 23:21:43 -0300, Joy Beeson
><jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote
>in<news:qvftkahi3409pua21...@4ax.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:25:44 -0500,
>> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>>> The only thing you need for a regular loaf of bread is
>>> wheat flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt (for
>>> taste.)
>
>> And if I forget the salt, the bread comes out just fine,
>> but my spouse complains.
>
>Remembering the few occasions when my mother was sleepy
>enough to forget to add the (small) amount of salt normally
>used in the hot cereal that we usually had for breakfast,
>I’m strongly inclined to sympathize with him.

Yeah, but if the cook forgot to salt the oatmeal, you can just
sprinkle and stir some in. A bit harder with bread once it's
baked.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 11:21:56 PM UTC-4, JRStern wrote:

Yes, circa 1975. Electric Waffle irons long predate GFG as
well.

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Perfectly_Normal_Beast

"The Perfectly Normal Beast was an animal which migrated on the idyllic
planet of Lamuella twice a year before disappearing completely. The beasts
are called "perfectly normal" so that no one will find it suspicious that
they disappear into oblivion. They are hunted by the Lamuellans and put in
the sandwiches made by Arthur Dent during his time as a sandwich maker.
In order to escape Lamuella, Arthur and Ford Prefect ride on a Perfectly
Normal Beast as they disappear and are transported to The Domain of The
King. "

pt

[J. Clarke]

In article <minjvl$guk$1...@dont-email.me>, mdha...@gmail.com says...

However yeast is an organism, which does things at its own pace
regardless of what chemical theory says.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <MPG.2fb952d7b...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I can't help but be reminded of the classic Dave Barry quote:

Yeast is a wonderful little plant or animal that, despite
the fact that it has only one cell, has figured out how to
convert sugar to alcohol. This was a far greater accomplishment
than anything we can attribute to giant complex multicelled
organisms such as, for example, the Secretary of Transportation.

[William Vetter]

Sorry. I became confused which bread she was talking about. Yeast is
not a bacterium, but both are eukaryotes. Yes, it is possible that the
squigglies will only wake up above some temperature. However, chemical
reactions catalyzed by biologic enzymes also follow Arrhenius' Law.

[Don Bruder]

In article <MPG.2fb952d7b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

And does it at a rate that can be very accurately predicted based on
temperature.

[David Harmon]

On Sun, 10 May 2015 13:53:10 -0400 in rec.arts.sf.written, William
Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote,

>Sorry. I became confused which bread she was talking about. Yeast is
>not a bacterium, but both are eukaryotes.

Bacteria are prokaryotes.

[J. Clarke]

In article <miolmt$om0$1...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...

Well, yes, because we've been learning about it for millennia.

[Robert Bannister]

Sorry. No idea.

[Don Bruder]

In article <MPG.2fb9bed7d...@news.eternal-september.org>,

And that somehow invalidates the fact that the rate yeast turns sugar
into CO2 and alcohol is predictable as a function of temperature?

Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of having an argument?

[J. Clarke]

In article <miovqt$t14$1...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...

Bored now.

[William Vetter]

Well, I think the baking follows regular first order kinetics until the
sugar begins to get significantly used up, or the concentration of
alcohol gets enough to begin to kill the yeast.

[Anonymous]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

In article <mii6hn$p44$1...@dont-email.me>
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
> Some years back I had a discussion -- on this group or maybe rasfc --
> about why people mentioned putting butter on things like ham sandwiches,
> and the answer surprised me; many people indicated it was to make the
> sandwich "moist enough" to swallow;....

Is THAT why people are constantly trying to slather butter all over
the interior of the sandwiches that I buy!?

I can't stand the idea of butter being spread over my sandwiches. I
noticed people in restaurants and diners trying to do it when I was
a teenager, when I first started buying my own sandwiches. I like
butter on bread and toast, and on croissants, so I like butter, but
in its proper place. At home my mother never put butter on a
sandwich.

I never knew why so many places would try such a thing. I learned
that I had to pointedly tell the waiter or the person making the
sandwich that I needed to not have butter on it.

The butter would usually be spread on the top piece of bread before
it went on top of the rest of the sandwich and seeing butter put on
top of sliced turkey or even American cheese just made me feel a
bit put off. At some point the sandwich preparers began asking if I
wanted butter on top, and I was able to refuse it, so I suspect
that other people had an issue with this butter thing. But now I
have an idea where the convention came from. Thanks.


Adamastor Glace Mortimer

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[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 10 May 2015 04:11:09 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

> One of M.F.K. Fischer's essays on cookery tells of a woman who
> had to make saltless bread (husband with hypertension) and rather
> liked it once she got used to it; said it tasted sweet and nutty,
> or something like that. I would have to look it up.

I liked unsalted yeast bread the first time I tasted it. My spouse
hates it. (Probably instinct: he recently discovered that he is
sodium-deficient.) I don't think much of unsalted oatmeal, and find
most quick breads taste better with a little salt.


--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <MPG.2fb952d7b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

But its own thing does include growing faster when it's warm and
has some sugar to eat.

[Moriarty]

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 4:30:03 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <MPG.2fb952d7b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> >> "Kept warm" is higher than RT, near 30degreesC. The general rule in
> >> chemical kinetics is reaction is 3X faster for every 10degreesC
> >> increase. That comes from Arrhenius Equation for rate constants.
> >
> >However yeast is an organism, which does things at its own pace
> >regardless of what chemical theory says.
>
> But its own thing does include growing faster when it's warm and
> has some sugar to eat.

Yep, any home brewer will tell you that beer that takes 3-5 days to ferment in summer will take 2 weeks in winter.

-Moriarty

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
> More quickly if it's kept warm. When I'm making yeast breads I
> put them on an electric heating pad; but my daughter sometimes
> uses my AEbleskiver recipe at SCA tournaments, in which case she
> puts the batter into a ziploc bag, seals it carefully, belts her
> tunic tightly, and puts it into her bosom to proof. :)

Although when baking with yeast or sour-dough, there's a tradeoff
between speed on one hand and flavour and texture on the other,
so sometimes you want to keep the dough _cool_ rather than warm.
One good way is to place the dough in the fridge (cover the baking
bowl with clingiflm) and let it rise over night.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <6ee8b02e-b7fe-476a...@googlegroups.com>,

And, as any fule kno, beer is liquid bread. As I said somewhere
upthread, I put my flaxmeal crumpets (once the batter's been
spooned into the rings) on a heating pad to rise. I'm not sure
what kind of heating pad you could use for a batch of beer ...
it's left to ferment in a rather large container, isn't it?

[William Vetter]

That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria
begin to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the
yeast would have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.

[Greg Goss]

Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > > > Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> > > > "Kept warm" is higher than RT, near 30degreesC. The general rule in
>> > > > chemical kinetics is reaction is 3X faster for every 10degreesC
>> > > > increase. That comes from Arrhenius Equation for rate constants.
>> > >
>> > > However yeast is an organism, which does things at its own pace
>> > > regardless of what chemical theory says.
>> >
>> > And does it at a rate that can be very accurately predicted based on
>> > temperature.
>>
>> Well, yes, because we've been learning about it for millennia.
>
>And that somehow invalidates the fact that the rate yeast turns sugar
>into CO2 and alcohol is predictable as a function of temperature?
>
>Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of having an argument?

It is very predictable based on temperature, but the rate at which an
organism does stuff is likely not going to use the same FORMULA that
was cited above.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

Anonymous <anon...@foto.nl1.torservers.net> wrote:

>I can't stand the idea of butter being spread over my sandwiches. I
>noticed people in restaurants and diners trying to do it when I was
>a teenager, when I first started buying my own sandwiches. I like
>butter on bread and toast, and on croissants, so I like butter, but
>in its proper place. At home my mother never put butter on a
>sandwich.
>
>I never knew why so many places would try such a thing. I learned
>that I had to pointedly tell the waiter or the person making the
>sandwich that I needed to not have butter on it.
>
>The butter would usually be spread on the top piece of bread before
>it went on top of the rest of the sandwich and seeing butter put on
>top of sliced turkey or even American cheese just made me feel a
>bit put off. At some point the sandwich preparers began asking if I
>wanted butter on top, and I was able to refuse it, so I suspect
>that other people had an issue with this butter thing. But now I
>have an idea where the convention came from. Thanks.

I put butter on beef or turkey at home, but don't expect it on the
same flavours at a Subway. I don't butter bread for ham. My late
wife would butter before PEANUT butter.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 11 May 2015 13:10:27 -0600, Greg Goss
<go...@gossg.org> wrote
in<news:crcd56...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> My late wife would butter before PEANUT butter.

You say that as if it were surprising.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Kevrob]

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 3:49:19 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2015 13:10:27 -0600, Greg Goss
> <go...@gossg.org> wrote
> in<news:crcd56...@mid.individual.net> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
> > My late wife would butter before PEANUT butter.
>
> You say that as if it were surprising.

Break out the bacon and nanners and go full Elvis!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter,_banana_and_bacon_sandwich

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <1qgm916he7eoy.1jsg0rsp45re4$.d...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Mon, 11 May 2015 13:10:27 -0600, Greg Goss
><go...@gossg.org> wrote
>in<news:crcd56...@mid.individual.net> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> My late wife would butter before PEANUT butter.
>
>You say that as if it were surprising.
>

It doesn't surprise me: peanut butter without an undercoat of
butter is too damn sticky. (Of course, if as a top layer you add
honey, as I used to do before I got diabetes, that makes it
sticky again, but in a much better way.)

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 4:15:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <1qgm916he7eoy.1jsg0rsp45re4$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >On Mon, 11 May 2015 13:10:27 -0600, Greg Goss
> ><go...@gossg.org> wrote
> >in<news:crcd56...@mid.individual.net> in
> >rec.arts.sf.written:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> My late wife would butter before PEANUT butter.
> >
> >You say that as if it were surprising.
> >
>
> It doesn't surprise me: peanut butter without an undercoat of
> butter is too damn sticky. (Of course, if as a top layer you add
> honey, as I used to do before I got diabetes, that makes it
> sticky again, but in a much better way.)

Tastes vary. I usually use a little mayo for meats in preference
to butter; I got quite upset when the company cafeteria decided
that the fraudulent product 'Just Mayo' (it isn't), could be
substituted for mayonnaise, but PB&J doesn't get anything extra.

Butter usually goes on only if it's going to melt; so I use it for
english muffins and toast.

pt



pt

[William Vetter]

The formula is rate = A * exp(-kt) * [yeast] while the yeast has an
excess of sugar available.

[Moriarty]

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 11:45:03 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <6ee8b02e-b7fe-476a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Moriarty <blu...@ivillage.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 4:30:03 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <MPG.2fb952d7b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> >> "Kept warm" is higher than RT, near 30degreesC. The general rule in
> >> >> chemical kinetics is reaction is 3X faster for every 10degreesC
> >> >> increase. That comes from Arrhenius Equation for rate constants.
> >> >
> >> >However yeast is an organism, which does things at its own pace
> >> >regardless of what chemical theory says.
> >>
> >> But its own thing does include growing faster when it's warm and
> >> has some sugar to eat.
> >
> >Yep, any home brewer will tell you that beer that takes 3-5 days to
> >ferment in summer will take 2 weeks in winter.
>
> And, as any fule kno, beer is liquid bread. As I said somewhere
> upthread, I put my flaxmeal crumpets (once the batter's been
> spooned into the rings) on a heating pad to rise. I'm not sure
> what kind of heating pad you could use for a batch of beer ...
> it's left to ferment in a rather large container, isn't it?

A 30 litre container is typical. The standard ways to heat your beer are either a heating pad on which the container sits, or a small immersion heater which is suspended through a hole in the lid.

I don't bother. Sydney doesn't get that cold in winter or warm in summer. So I just use an ale yeast in summer and a lager yeast in winter. They're specifically designed/bred/engineered/whatever to thrive at specific temperatures.

-Moriarty

[William Vetter]

Do you eat Vegemite?

[Moriarty]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 8:26:38 AM UTC+10, William Vetter wrote:
> Moriarty wrote:

<snip>

> > A 30 litre container is typical. The standard ways to heat your beer are
> > either a heating pad on which the container sits, or a small immersion heater
> > which is suspended through a hole in the lid.
> >
> > I don't bother. Sydney doesn't get that cold in winter or warm in summer.
> > So I just use an ale yeast in summer and a lager yeast in winter. They're
> > specifically designed/bred/engineered/whatever to thrive at specific
> > temperatures.
> >
> Do you eat Vegemite?

Can't stand it! I'm in a minority though.

-Moriarty

[Robert Bannister]

Heretic!

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:

> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.

Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

[William Vetter]

Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>
>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>
> Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

My dictionaries say proof.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>
>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>
>Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

The past participle of what you do with a theorem is "proved".
Of what you do with yeast is "proofed".

Different verbs, different participles.

--
David Goldfarb |"Everyone generalizes from insufficient data.
goldf...@gmail.com | I know I do."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Steven Brust

[Don Bruder]

In article <mira8o$uj0$1...@dont-email.me>,

Does ANYTHING sentient eat vegemite???

(I mean after the first encounter with the stuff - sentient or not,
"vegemite virgins" get a free pass 'cause they just plain don't have any
chance of knowing better until they experience it for themselves)

[Cryptoengineer]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
news:crcvhp...@mid.individual.net:

Isn't Marmite a side product of making beer? Does that make
him a double heretic?

pt

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:

> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>
>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>
> Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

No, in the sense used here it's always been "proofed".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proofed

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <no7qx...@kithrup.com>,

David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,
>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>>
>>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>>
>>Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".
>
>The past participle of what you do with a theorem is "proved".

Or "proven."

>Of what you do with yeast is "proofed".
>
>Different verbs, different participles.

--

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,
Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>
>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>
>Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

Another example of two (three?) peoples divided by a common
language.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-05-12, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>
> Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

No, here it's "proofed", Brian can probably now let us know about parallel
chains of etymology. At Subway, we proofed the bread in the proofer - an
ovenlike box except that its heating elements were basically large lightbulbs
and it also kept higher humidity inside. When it was bread-shaped - juuuuust
starting to poof over the edges of the plastic forms, like long horizontal shy
muffins - it was time to bake it.

Dave, I also learnt the word 'bain' there
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Burn 'im!! ('E's from Sydney, burn 'im twice!!! ;-) )

Cheers,
Gary B-)

P.S. Melbourne-Sydney rivalry at work here. (And I *like* Vegemite,
it's made from Beer!!! :-> )

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

What they call "vegemite" nowadays is a pale and tepid imitation of the
vegemite I grew up on, that would put hair on your chest *and* your
eyeballs!! :-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <yL6dnU6n9bW8DczI...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>
>No, here it's "proofed", Brian can probably now let us know about parallel
>chains of etymology. At Subway, we proofed the bread in the proofer - an
>ovenlike box except that its heating elements were basically large lightbulbs
>and it also kept higher humidity inside. When it was bread-shaped - juuuuust
>starting to poof over the edges of the plastic forms, like long horizontal shy
>muffins - it was time to bake it.
>
>Dave, I also learnt the word 'bain' there

As in bain-marie, first cousin to a double boiler?

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-05-12, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>No, here it's "proofed", Brian can probably now let us know about parallel
>>chains of etymology. At Subway, we proofed the bread in the proofer - an
>>ovenlike box except that its heating elements were basically large lightbulbs
>>and it also kept higher humidity inside. When it was bread-shaped - juuuuust
>>starting to poof over the edges of the plastic forms, like long horizontal shy
>>muffins - it was time to bake it.
>>
>>Dave, I also learnt the word 'bain' there
>
> As in bain-marie, first cousin to a double boiler?

Quite possibly, yeah; there, it was the long metal trough that the meats and
vegetables, in their bins, were suspended in, and it kept them cold.

Dave

[Kevrob]

"....and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri." - DA/hg2g

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <NOednfnLNoru2c_I...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On 2015-05-12, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>>No, here it's "proofed", Brian can probably now let us know about parallel
>>>chains of etymology. At Subway, we proofed the bread in the proofer - an
>>>ovenlike box except that its heating elements were basically large lightbulbs
>>>and it also kept higher humidity inside. When it was bread-shaped - juuuuust
>>>starting to poof over the edges of the plastic forms, like long horizontal shy
>>>muffins - it was time to bake it.
>>>
>>>Dave, I also learnt the word 'bain' there
>>
>> As in bain-marie, first cousin to a double boiler?
>
>Quite possibly, yeah; there, it was the long metal trough that the meats and
>vegetables, in their bins, were suspended in, and it kept them cold.
>

Ah. Not the same thing, then; a bain-marie is a bath of hot
water used to keep the contents of an interior container warm.

Was the cold trough pronounced to rhyme with "man"? I tried
googling phrases like "bain froid" but got only references to icy
baths for athletes.

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/05/2015 9:31 am, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>>
>>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>>
>> Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".
>
> The past participle of what you do with a theorem is "proved".
> Of what you do with yeast is "proofed".
>
> Different verbs, different participles.
>

Sorry, but I have only heard about allowing bread to prove, not proof,
though I know the latter is connected with alcohol.

[Robert Bannister]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proved?s=t

Meaning 12
(of dough) to rise to a specified lightness:
Leave covered until it has proved.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 12 May 2015 05:10:21 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
in<news:no811...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:

>>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When
>>> the dough is proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC,
>>> then lactic acid bacteria begin to compete with the
>>> yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.

>>Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".

> Another example of two (three?) peoples divided by a
> common language.

The OED’s entry for <prove>, updated September 2007, has
this sense of <prove> from 1852, with further citations
through 1999; all five citations appear to be English. Its
entry for the verb <proof>, updated June 2007, has this
sense from 1875, with three more citations through 2006;
the first two are English, the last two American. The verb
<proof> appears to derive partly from the noun and partly
from the adjective, which in turn is from the noun.

The American Heritage Dictionary, Fifth Edition, and
Merriam-Webster Online don’t have this sense of <prove>,
but the Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary
does, as does the Collins English Dictionary.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <crfm6c...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>On 12/05/2015 9:31 am, David Goldfarb wrote:
>> In article <crcvja...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/05/2015 10:46 pm, William Vetter wrote:
>>>
>>>> That has to do with proofing the dough, I think. When the dough is
>>>> proofed, if it's above about 30degreesC, then lactic acid bacteria begin
>>>> to compete with the yeast, and excrete lactic acid where the yeast would
>>>> have excreted acetic acid to make the dough sour.
>>>
>>> Never seen "proofed" before. It's always been "proved".
>>
>> The past participle of what you do with a theorem is "proved".
>> Of what you do with yeast is "proofed".
>>
>> Different verbs, different participles.
>>
>Sorry, but I have only heard about allowing bread to prove, not proof,
>though I know the latter is connected with alcohol.

Possibly it's one of those trans-oceanic differences. The
alcohol is generated by the yeast as it grows, and is (to all
intents and purposes) evaporated out by the baking process.

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>>Sorry, but I have only heard about allowing bread to prove, not proof,
>>though I know the latter is connected with alcohol.
>
>Possibly it's one of those trans-oceanic differences. The
>alcohol is generated by the yeast as it grows, and is (to all
>intents and purposes) evaporated out by the baking process.

He's playing with the word "proof". You prove rum by pouring it over
gunpowder and trying to light the powder. If the powder burns, then
there's a low enough water content in the rum. This became "100
proof" rum. Brits use a different number for alcohol proof (I think
based out of 160 instead of 200), and given the roundness of the
latter, I expect that the former is the official original proof.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.