"Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"

[Lynn McGuire]

"Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html

I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:15:15 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<l...@winsim.com> wrote in<news:mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

The problem isn’t with the staff: it’s with Tom Doherty’s
action.

<http://www.dailydot.com/geek/tor-tom-doherty-irene-gallo-sad-puppies/>

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[lal_truckee]

On 6/14/15 12:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>
> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>
>
> I am personally boycotting Tor

Well, now!
I will see your boycott, and raise you a declaration that I will
undertake an anti-boycott.
I will make a special effort to consider reading publications from Tor
that are neither fantasy nor MilSF nor series nor alternate timeline.
This should be no burden since the criteria will likely produce one or
fewer volumes a year.

But I stand firmly on the sifting slime deposited by these competing
epidemics of logorrhoea, although I cannot deduce any discernible
meaning in any of the multiple sufferers' excrement.

[Lynn McGuire]

Excellent, go for it!

I purchase 50 to 60 books per year and lately have been reading mostly
indies using POD at Amazon. So, boycotting Tor will affect me very
little. Although, I was heartened by Tom Doherty's posting on the matter:

http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>
>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>
> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?

A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
the public:
http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html

Lynn

[David Johnston]

On 6/14/2015 1:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>
> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html

I have no idea what this guy is babbling about.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 2:17:16 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:


> > "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
> >
> > http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>
> I have no idea what this guy is babbling about.

Ultimately Left v Right battles in the SF community. Two right wing groups ('Sad Puppies' and the more extreme 'Rabid Puppies', both self named btw) decided to engage in Strategy of Democracy 101 (bloc voting, etc, nothing underhanded) to support works they prefer over the left wing works that had recently been winning awards disproportionately in their view. They were successful, causing the Left to cry 'no fair!' even though it's business as usual for the Left in other arenas.

It's strictly tempest in a teapot stuff ('debates in academia are especially vicious precisely because the stakes are so small...') but some employees of publishers have expressed opinions on the issues without specifying that they are speaking for themselves rather than the publisher as a whole, and this has pissed the combatants off when others have tried to step in to 'clarify' things. ('no, employee x is not speaking for the company and should have specified that')

This, of course, raises questions of mental retardation among people who think people opining on their own social media sites (ie Facebook) are ever expressing anything BUT their own personal opinion. If it was company policy they would be expressing it on the *company* site as company policy...

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Okay, next question, what's a SJW?

[Shawn Wilson]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 2:45:03 PM UTC-7, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:


> >A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
> >made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
> >the public:
> > http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>
> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?

'Social Justice Warrior'. Archetypically a person of Leftist ideation who wants to change society for (what they think is) the better. Known to the Right as 'whiners'.

[David Johnston]

On 6/14/2015 3:29 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>>
>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>>>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>>>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>>
>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>
>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>> the public:
>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>
> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>

"Social Justice Warrior". It's a particularly snide way of referring to
anyone who isn't right wing and says something.

[Cryptoengineer]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:npyED...@kithrup.com:

> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
>>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusi
>>on-at-tor.html
>>>>
>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to
>>>> do on a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will
>>>> affect them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff
>>>> behavior lately.
>>>
>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>
>>A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at
>>Tor, made the following posting on her facebook account and then
>>opened it to the public:
>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.h
>> tml
>
> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?

"Social Justice Warrior", a title applied to people who insist on the
correctness of their preferred standard of behaviour, applied to them
mockingly by people who don't like being told they're wrong.

For its opposite, consider MCP.

In other words, the normal too and fro of liberals and conservatives,
turned toxic by the echo chambers of the internet, where

'Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold.
Mere Anarchy Is Loosed Upon the World.
The best lack all conviction,
while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.'

pt

[Ahasuerus]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >"Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
> >
> >http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
> >
> >I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
> >a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
> >them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>
> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?

The post that Lynn linked appears to be a follow-up to Peter Grant's
(the self-published SF writer who owns the blog) open letter to
Tom Doherty, the head of Tor Books -- see
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-tom-doherty-of-tor.html

Grant's open letter was prompted by Doherty's earlier post on Tor.com
(http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/)
which was prompted by a Facebook comment by Irene Gallo, a Tor employee,
which was promoted by... Well, you see where this is going. As Bruce
Sterling said recently "the people in science fiction are not old-
fashioned people, they're neck deep in echo-chamber social-media flame
war, just like everybody else."
(http://www.nerds-feather.com/2015/06/blogtable-v-cyberpunks-on-state-of_9.html)

I don't have the time to follow social media flame wars these days, but
what little I have seen so far has been about politics, awards,
personalities and corporate policies, which makes it seemingly different
vis a vis The War of the New Wave.

Of course, there were political/personal/etc dimensions to the New Wave
controversy, but it was also about technical experimentation,
"inner space" vs. "outer space", modernist techniques and many other
*literary* issues. _Analog_ and _New Worlds_ ca. 1969 were fundamentally
different even if you ignored their respective editors' politics. I am
not seeing the same kind of divergence in the current debate. There may
be more stylistic variety among Tor-published books than among Baen-
published books, but the poles are much closer to each other than was
the case in the late 1960s/early 1970s.

Anyway, that's my impression so far. It would be interesting to see
counter-examples.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 16:14:16 -0500, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

She's not an editor; she's the art director.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/14/15 5:14 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>
>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>
>>>
>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>
>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>
> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,

Not supposedly. A significant editor

> made the following posting on her facebook account

As a private citizen.

> and then opened it to
> the public:
> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>

And you link to one of the most vile people on the Net, who released
said thing after holding it so he could once more cause spewage.

Really, Lynn, don't do this. The Puppies are mostly the cause of the
problem, and the real issue with Doherty is that he didn't just post a
simple "Remember: What individuals say is not Tor's opinion" and leave
it at that.

(Also, a perfectly legitimate reading of her statement only puts the
RABID puppies in the Nazi category, which -- based on what I know -- is
certainly a reasonable categorization for Vox, if no one else)

Me? My position is pretty much the same as Eric Flint's in most areas.
The Puppies are mostly wrong, and the points where they're right, their
actions failed to accomplish their stated goals.
> Lynn
>
>


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/14/15 5:29 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>>
>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>>>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>>>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>>
>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>
>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>> the public:
>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>
> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>

Social Justice Warrior. They use it as a derogatory term to basically
mean these invented enemies they see.

[William December Starr]

In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>,

1. I can't tell from the article what the guy's talking about.
Apparently there's a "the current situation" but that's all I
can discern.

2. "Apparently Macmillan and others involved aren't so sure about
that, but it's a defense the SJW's are using with might and
main."

"SJW's" ("social justice warriors"). Congratulations sir, you have
successfully marked yourself as an immature asshole. (If he hadn't
already done so with the "Contents guaranteed to offend the
politically correct and anal-retentive from time to time" brag in
his boilerplate header.)

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:

> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
> the public:
> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html

The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.

Which is where my reading of it ended.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <mlkt1i$hsn$1...@dont-email.me>,

+1

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA4B9B67A4B...@216.166.97.131>,

Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> said:

> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote
>

>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>
> "Social Justice Warrior", a title applied to people who insist on the
> correctness of their preferred standard of behaviour, applied to them
> mockingly by people who don't like being told they're wrong.
>
> For its opposite, consider MCP.
>
> In other words, the normal too and fro of liberals and conservatives,

I think you're selling false equivalence there.

-- wds

[Don Kuenz]

To be a MCP or to be a SJW, that is the question.

Um, no. I'm a MJW (Male Justice Warrior). :)

--
,-. Give More expect less Love More
\_/ argue less Listen More talk less
{|||)< Don Kuenz Laugh More complain less Dream More
/ \ doubt less Hope More fear less
`-' Breathe More whine less

[Ahasuerus]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 5:45:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
> >>>
> >>>
> >http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
> >>>
> >>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
> >>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
> >>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
> >>
> >> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> >> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> >> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
> >
> >A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
> >made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
> >the public:
> > http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>
> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?

There is a fairly lengthy explanation at
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior

Will Shetterly, who used to post here, wrote a book about the
phenomenon, _How to make a Social Justice Warrior_. It can be
downloaded from https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/415287 or
http://www.amazon.com/make-Social-Justice-Warrior-intersectionality-ebook/dp/B00IRUW8J6

[John Halpenny]

There is no equivalence.

My side is noble, pure and RIGHT (or Left). Your side is evil, stupid and WRONG.

John

[Lynn McGuire]

http://www.ericflint.net/index.php/2015/06/08/in-defense-of-the-sad-puppies/

"Words matter—something you’d expect any professional in publishing to
understand, even if their specialty is art work. Calling someone
“extreme right-wing” when you immediately tie that to “neo-nazi” is
disingenuous at best. The transparently obvious purpose is to blend
“extreme right-wing” with “neo-nazi” in the minds of the readers. The
problem is that terms like “extreme” and “right-wing” are inherently
vague and the one term in the sentence that is not vague—“neo-nazi”—is
wildly inappropriate."

"It’s not even appropriate applied to the Rabid Puppies. The two most
prominent figures in that group are Theodore Beale (“Vox Day”) and the
author John C. Wright. I have been severely critical of Wright and will
continue to be, but I have seen no evidence that he either belongs to,
is affiliated with, or even has any significant relations with any
member of a neo-Nazi organization. The situation with Beale is perhaps
murkier, because some of his statements certainly resonate with those
made by neo-Nazis. But I have seen no concrete evidence in his case
either that would support the charge of being a “neo-nazi.”"

Lynn

[William Vetter]

Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 5:45:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>>
>>>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>>>>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>>>>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>>>
>>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>>>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>>>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>>
>>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>>> the public:
>>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>>
>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>
> There is a fairly lengthy explanation at
> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior
>

What I got from that discussion is that it has a rather diffuse
meaning, but generally it is both a word for some variety of basher
troll (which surely exist), and an insult word for denouncing some kind
of online activist as a basher troll.

[Kevrob]

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/ASPA/UNPAN000572.pdf

That is a paper in .pdf by Dixon E. Southworth, a New York State employee,
& David M. Van Slyke, Ph.D., of Georgia State University, wherein they use
the term, with no relation to fandom, and positively, from 2001.

This reminds me of "politically (in)correct:" a term originating with a
certain political group, taken up as a term of opprobrium by their opponents.
Cries of 'no fair" seem oddly out of place.

Note, I belong to neither pack of puppies.

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

MCP is Master Control Program from Tron?

Lynn

[Ahasuerus]

The first thing that comes to mind is "Microsoft Certified Professional",
but in this context it's probably "Male Chauvinist Pig".

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <7212601e-1cdf-4e57...@googlegroups.com>,

Yeah. The most extreme example I can think of right off top of
head is John Milton.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>> the public:
>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>
>The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.

Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle punning on
"Vox populi vox Dei"?

[Ahasuerus]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
> >
> >> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
> >> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
> >> the public:
> >> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
> >
> >The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.
>
> Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle punning on
> "Vox populi vox Dei"?

Vox Day's birth name is Theodore Beal -- see
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/day_vox and
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?7585

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <611dfb25-20c3-46a2...@googlegroups.com>,
Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>....As Bruce

>Sterling said recently "the people in science fiction are not old-
>fashioned people, they're neck deep in echo-chamber social-media flame
>war, just like everybody else."

Well, that's a nice bit of wordage, comparable to Dickens's "It
was the best of times, it was the worst of times...."

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 5:09:53 PM UTC-6, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> Really, Lynn, don't do this. The Puppies are mostly the cause of the
> problem, and the real issue with Doherty is that he didn't just post a
> simple "Remember: What individuals say is not Tor's opinion" and leave
> it at that.

Since what she posted was *a criticism of Tor*, responding to it - even if, due
to their right-wing objection to political correctness, they don't react every
time one of their authors posts something some percieve as racist or sexist -
is _not_ so unfair as to merit a sharp reaction, in my opinion.

I don't know if a concerted effort to support more conservative authors for the
Hugo Awards is legitimate democracy or an interference in the process. I should
think that if people with right-wing political views vote for the novels they
honestly think are better written, they will tend to tilt towards writers whose
views they agree with anyways - and so making *more* of an effort than that
does risk interfering with choosing the best works.

Despite my own sympathies being right-wing by some standards (I don't think I'm
conservative by temperament or inclination, though; instead, I'm basically an
out-of-date liberal) my gut reaction was to be disapproving of Tor when I first
heard of this, but then thinking about the matter led me reluctantly to the
conclusion there were no grounds for protest.

John Savard

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
<ahas...@email.com> wrote
in<news:a7173363-e07e-4c81...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
> Heydt wrote:

>> In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:

[...]

>>> The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.

>> Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle
>> punning on "Vox populi vox Dei"?

> Vox Day's birth name is Theodore Beal -- see
> http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/day_vox and
> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?7585

Beale.

See also

<http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale>.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 6:41:03 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire quoted, in part:

> The situation with Beale is perhaps
> murkier, because some of his statements certainly resonate with those
> made by neo-Nazis.

That, I think, would be enough to put me off of him, even if it would be a
gross exaggeration and an unwarranted calumny to put him in the card-carrying
category.

Of course, I can't be sure; maybe after reading what he has said, I'll find he
hasn't said anything I haven't said. But if so, I may have to rethink some of
the things I have said.

John Savard

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/14/15 8:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:


... and as I said, MOSTLY I agree with Eric. In this particular case, I
don't think that a personal communication, which can be interpreted two
ways, is something worth getting worked up over and treating as though
it was something official.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/14/15 10:14 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>>
>>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>>> the public:
>>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>>
>> The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.
>
> Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle punning on
> "Vox populi vox Dei"?
>

It's a lame joke. His real name is Theodore Beale, and he's pretty
vile. You don't want to know more.

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 8:37:40 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Of course, I can't be sure; maybe after reading what he has said, I'll find he
> hasn't said anything I haven't said. But if so, I may have to rethink some of
> the things I have said.

A little Googling has me really confused.

Apparently he is *supporting* this boycott of Tor.

On the other hand, he published Tom Kratman. Whose controversial works I have
not read enough of to judge - I think there _should_ be books out there which
are bold in their criticism of the systemic roots of terrorism within Islam to
such an extent as to get accused of racism... but I do want those accusations
to ultimately be false in the end as well.

He wrote a book criticising Richard Dawkins, among others. Well, I have
criticisms of Richard Dawkins too, despite being an atheist - basically, unlike
him I'm not materialist enough to strip the notion of a human soul or spirit of
*all* valid meaning.

RationalWiki calls him a racist - and an anti-vaxxer - but I need more than a
secondary source to clear up my confusion.

John Savard

[Ahasuerus]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
> <ahas...@email.com> wrote
> in<news:a7173363-e07e-4c81...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
> > Heydt wrote:
>
> >> In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> >> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.
> >>
> >> Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle
> >> punning on "Vox populi vox Dei"?
> >
> > Vox Day's birth name is Theodore Beal -- see
> > http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/day_vox and
> > http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?7585
>
> Beale.
>
> See also
>
> <http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale>.

Sorry, we have been experiencing a vowel shortage lately...

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 8:46:02 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> RationalWiki calls him a racist - and an anti-vaxxer - but I need more than a
> secondary source to clear up my confusion.

I found this interview with him by a sympathetic individual who was trying to
give him a chance to clear his name:

http://www.johndbrown.com/what-vox-day-believes/

Now, I have nothing against the argument that we should deal scientifically
with claims that there are genetic differences in IQ between the races.

Except the one fatal objection: doing so allows the appearance that such a
claim is regarded as respectable - and, in the current climate, the general
public is likely to equate "less intelligent" with "less human". So hard
scientific proof that blacks were less intelligent - even by some microscopic
fraction of an IQ point - could lead a large number of white voters deciding
that there would be no moral objection to a return to chattel slavery.

Divorcing science from society - when one's goal is political, and hence social
- is, at the least, disingenuous.

I suspect there's a cultural explanation for the superior achievements of the
Jewish and Chinese people, and genetic IQ variations are below the level we can
usefully detect. Even, say, Australian Aborigines - who one might *expect*,
with smaller brains and normal body size, to be less intelligent - are, in
practice, obviously just as smart as anyone else. What I suspect, though, is
that *learning disabilities* may be more common among indigenous people - why
the heck *would* dyslexia be selected out among people with no written language?

And that will just make it harder to help these people benefit from education -
as we will be looking for the wrong problem if we use IQ tests.

"African-American men are 500 times more likely to possess a gene variant that
is linked to violence and aggression than white American men."

Anyone who can say something like that is certainly going to be branded a
racist.

For all I know, it may be a verifiable fact, though. The argument that preceded
it - that impulsiveness isn't selected out as strongly in indigenous societies
- is valid enough.

But given what black people in the U.S. live under every day, the problem of
black crime would be much worse than it was if it weren't for the fact -
probably due to cultural survival adaptation, and not genetic *superiority* -
that black men seem to be, in equal circumstances, much *less* likely to be
violent than white men.

White men wouldn't put up with that nonsense, and one is kidding oneself to
think otherwise.

So far, therefore, I am going to reserve judgement on the charge of "moral monster". However, I will condemn him now as a "sloppy thinker".

John Savard

[David Goldfarb]

In article <npyrK...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>>
>>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>>> made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>>> the public:
>>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html
>>
>>The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.
>
>Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle punning on
>"Vox populi vox Dei"?

The latter. His real name is Theodore Beale; "Vox Day" is intended
to translate as as "Voice of Theo". He has in addition a blog page
entitled "Vox Popoli" (sic).

John Scalzi refers to him as "racist, sexist, homophobic dipshit";
Irene Gallo was referring to him when she used the phrase "neo-Nazi".
All of these descriptors are, from what I have seen, fairly earned.

--
David Goldfarb | "Speak softly, drive a Sherman tank
goldf...@gmail.com | Laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- TMBG

[Robert A. Woodward]

In article <XnsA4B9B67A4B...@216.166.97.131>,

Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:

> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:npyED...@kithrup.com:
>

> > In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire

> > <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >>On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
> >>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusi
> >>on-at-tor.html
> >>>>
> >>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to
> >>>> do on a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will
> >>>> affect them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff
> >>>> behavior lately.
> >>>
> >>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> >>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> >>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
> >>

> >>A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at
> >>Tor, made the following posting on her facebook account and then
> >>opened it to the public:

> >> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.h
> >> tml
> >
> > Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>
>
> "Social Justice Warrior", a title applied to people who insist on the
> correctness of their preferred standard of behaviour, applied to them
> mockingly by people who don't like being told they're wrong.
>
> For its opposite, consider MCP.
>

I think the opposite is Fascist (a word badly misused because of
overuse IMHO).

--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://robertaw.drizzlehosting.com>

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-14, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>
> < http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/
> anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html >

... um, Lynn? You do realize you're throwing yourself in with the side that's
trying to defend _Vox Day_ from people calling him oh! such nasty names and
describing him in terms he doesn't want to be described in, right? And that
he's apparently trying to mobilize a mob with Internet pitchforks and torches
against Tor Books because ... well, it isn't very clear among all the froth,
but it _seems_ to be that some people from Tor have described VD in terms that
take his stated positions and actions into account?

Another words, VD's stirring up a tempest in his personal teapot and firing up
his legions of email supporters against Tor. or something. Yes no abort retry?
Does someone that DOESN'T have to get up at 5:30am this morning for work want
to put their memetic prophylactic on and sort through what Mr. Grant is
actually saying?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-14, Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> Will Shetterly, who used to post here, wrote a book about the
> phenomenon, _How to make a Social Justice Warrior_.

For those who are aware of his reputation for things he posts on the net, this
may in itself be a warning, yes?

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-15, David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Does someone that DOESN'T have to get up at 5:30am this morning for work want
> to put their memetic prophylactic on and sort through what Mr. Grant is
> actually saying?

Okay, after reading the rest of the thread, I see this has been done, and I
salute the courage of those brave individuals who actually went and read
through the stuff. It ends up much as I thought; my pre-judging of any
situation involving V.D. appears once again to have been the correct thing
to do.

(As others have noted, Dorothy, you don't want to know why we're reacting this
way to mention of him being involved in whatever this is. Just recoil and
hiss with the rest of us.)

[A.G.McDowell]

On 14/06/2015 20:15, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>
> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>
>

> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect them
> whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>

> Lynn
If Tor is indeed biased against SF laced with right-wing views, or is
biassed towards publishing SF simply because it pushes a particular
left-wing viewpoint, regardless of whether it is any good or not, it
simply won't be publishing books I'm interested in, and I won't so much
be boycotting it as recognising that having Tor on the spine is a hint
that I don't need to pull the book from its shelf and inspect it.

But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_Books#Authors tells me that Tor
publish Kevin J Anderson. I personally thought the two books of his I
read were ridiculously dumbed down, but I know he is considered not a
left-wing apparachik by Sarah Hoyt "I will continue reading authors from
Tor – Kevin Anderson" at
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/06/12/dispatches-from-another-world/ so
just having Tor on the back of the spine is not enough to condemn it.

I DO favour http://www.baen.com, well known as the publisher of the
socialist Eric Flint :-) but that's partly because I can buy non-DRM
formats such as RTF from them. Currently reading the reasonably
entertaining but somewhat ridiculous Warp Speed, by Travis S Taylor,
partly because - as somebody born and brought up in Northern Ireland - I
can relate to a Luke-Skywalker or Dick Seaton like story of somebody
brought up in the sticks who nevertheless has intelligence and talent.

PS - he claims strong legs make you good at riding bikes uphill. That is
simply incorrect, because you have to carry those big strong legs uphill
with you. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28363129. Anybody know if
his Karate is any more reliable?

[A.G.McDowell]

His blog appears unrestrained enough to appear a reliable guide to his
views. He is making quite an amusing line out of NOT being a racist, and
of promoting the non-aryan parts of his own heritage. He does appear to
be an anti-vaxxer:
http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/a-lethally-unsafe-vaccine.html. I
rate him as amusing but bonkers, and yes, so far bonkers that nobody
with any sense should find him persuasive of anything.

[Ahasuerus]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 1:05:52 AM UTC-4, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-06-14, Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> > Will Shetterly, who used to post here, wrote a book about the
> > phenomenon, _How to make a Social Justice Warrior_.
>
> For those who are aware of his reputation for things he posts on
> the net, this may in itself be a warning, yes?

I haven't read him lately, but I remember our lively debates back in
the 90s. Those were the days!

I believe he based much of the book on his Internet experiences, but
I have only scanned the first few chapters which covered other
areas.

[Ahasuerus]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 1:34:45 AM UTC-4, A.G.McDowell wrote:
[snip]
[re: Vox Day]

> His blog appears unrestrained enough to appear a reliable guide
> to his views. He is making quite an amusing line out of NOT being
> a racist, and of promoting the non-aryan parts of his own heritage.
> He does appear to be an anti-vaxxer:
> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/a-lethally-unsafe-vaccine.html.
> I rate him as amusing but bonkers, and yes, so far bonkers that nobody
> with any sense should find him persuasive of anything.

There are a lot of different people and groups involved in these
rolling flame wars, which have been going on for a few years now. Some
groups and sub-groups are occasionally confused by other parties, e.g.
see David Gerrold's recent mea culpa on
https://www.facebook.com/adamtroycastro/posts/10206848319349101 ,
which leads to further confusion, acrimony, etc.

Unfortunately, as I wrote upthread, I am not seeing anything
specifically SFnal in these discussions. The New Wave battles turned
out to be productive in the long run since they -- eventually, partially,
etc -- changed how SF was written. I am not sure what, if any, changes
the current debates will bring. Then again, these things are best viewed
in retrospect, so perhaps it's better to wait for the dust to settle
before passing judgement.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>
>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>

> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?

Hi Dorothy,

Please forgive the previous Vox Day reference as several people here and
on the net appear to believe the man is crazy. I selected the reference
just because of the facebook screenshot.

I have found another blog featuring the facebook screenshot but I have
absolutely no idea who this person is writing the blog. She just
appears to be fairly calm.
http://cedarwrites.com/fear-and-loathing-at-tor/

This whole thing is absolutely a tempest in a teapot. My only dog in
this hunt is the fact that I like the books produced by several of the
authors being publicly lied about. Words mean things and Ms. Gallo said
(or repeated) some fairly horrible lies about several authors. I am
fairly worried my favorite authors will be shutdown and not published
anymore. They could go indie with all the new ebook and POD stuff but,
that route still appears fairly difficult.

Lynn

[William December Starr]

In article <mllq93$t01$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:

> Please forgive the previous Vox Day reference as several people
> here and on the net appear to believe the man is crazy.

No. We "appear" to believe that he is a racist, sexist, homophobic,
sociopathic dipshit attention junkie who long ago learned that one
can achieve great and long-lasting notoriety by making a regular
practice of defecating in public. I don't think anyone has claimed
that he's crazy.

-- wds

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 11:26:11 PM UTC-6, A.G.McDowell wrote:

> If Tor is indeed biased against SF laced with right-wing views, or is
> biassed towards publishing SF simply because it pushes a particular
> left-wing viewpoint, regardless of whether it is any good or not, it
> simply won't be publishing books I'm interested in, and I won't so much
> be boycotting it as recognising that having Tor on the spine is a hint
> that I don't need to pull the book from its shelf and inspect it.

Oh; this explains my confusion. I thought Tor was, like certain other
publishers, likely to be biased in the *other* direction, if anything.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 11:26:11 PM UTC-6, A.G.McDowell wrote:

> If Tor is indeed biased against SF laced with right-wing views, or is
> biassed towards publishing SF simply because it pushes a particular
> left-wing viewpoint, regardless of whether it is any good or not, it
> simply won't be publishing books I'm interested in, and I won't so much
> be boycotting it as recognising that having Tor on the spine is a hint
> that I don't need to pull the book from its shelf and inspect it.

Oh; this explains my confusion. I thought Tor was, like certain other

publishers, likely to be biased in the *other* direction, if anything. I didn't
realize they were a _mainstream_ publisher, I had confused them with Baen, for
example.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 9:02:16 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> "African-American men are 500 times more likely to possess a gene variant that
> is linked to violence and aggression than white American men."
>
> Anyone who can say something like that is certainly going to be branded a
> racist.

But without doing research, I can't say offhand that the statement is _false_.
So I limited myself to saying what I knew, in effect: that such a statement is
*wildly irresponsible*.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

I seem to have managed to find out what the heck he was talking about:

https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/the-extreme-warrior-gene-a-reality-check/

I haven't heard of Kiri Te Kanawa engaging in any violent attacks against
others...

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 7:21:46 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 7:19:10 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 9:02:16 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> > > "African-American men are 500 times more likely to possess a gene variant that
> > > is linked to violence and aggression than white American men."

> I seem to have managed to find out what the heck he was talking about:
>
> https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/the-extreme-warrior-gene-a-reality-check/

If so, even with MAOA-2R, the gene with the wider level of disparity, 5.5% is
*not* 500 times 0.9%. The ratio is instead 6 1/9.

On the other hand, 0.00067% is the percentage for Asian-American men, so in
*that* case, the ratio is 8,209 to 1. So there is a large disparity, it's just
not between the pair of racial groups cited.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 9:02:16 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> But given what black people in the U.S. live under every day, the problem of
> black crime would be much worse than it was if it weren't for the fact -
> probably due to cultural survival adaptation, and not genetic *superiority* -
> that black men seem to be, in equal circumstances, much *less* likely to be
> violent than white men.
>
> White men wouldn't put up with that nonsense, and one is kidding oneself to
> think otherwise.

And from here

http://discovermagazine.com/1994/nov/violencegenesand446

I found this quote

"And I want to make clear there was no correlation between violence and race at
all, when you took socioeconomic status out of it--in fact, black middle-class
kids, we'd previously found, were less likely to abuse drugs than white
middle-class kids and were more socially responsible."

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

This article

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/

has some interesting insights.

John Savard

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 11:02:16 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 8:46:02 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> > RationalWiki calls him a racist - and an anti-vaxxer - but I need more than a
> > secondary source to clear up my confusion.
>
> I found this interview with him by a sympathetic individual who was trying to
> give him a chance to clear his name:
>
> http://www.johndbrown.com/what-vox-day-believes/
>
> Now, I have nothing against the argument that we should deal scientifically
> with claims that there are genetic differences in IQ between the races.
>
> Except the one fatal objection: doing so allows the appearance that such a
> claim is regarded as respectable - and, in the current climate, the general
> public is likely to equate "less intelligent" with "less human". So hard
> scientific proof that blacks were less intelligent - even by some microscopic
> fraction of an IQ point - could lead a large number of white voters deciding
> that there would be no moral objection to a return to chattel slavery.
>
> Divorcing science from society - when one's goal is political, and hence social
> - is, at the least, disingenuous.
>
> I suspect there's a cultural explanation for the superior achievements of the
> Jewish and Chinese people, and genetic IQ variations are below the level we
> can usefully detect.

I dropped the notion any inherited differences in intelligence
between ethnic groups had any modern significance after I learned of the
Flynn Effect, which over a century produces much larger changes in IQ
then that detected by intergroup-testing.

pt

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in

news:npyAG...@kithrup.com:

> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>"Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>
>>http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-c
>>onfusion-at-tor.html
>>
>>I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue
>>to do on a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal
>>actions will affect them whatsoever but I just cannot condone
>>their staff behavior lately.
>
> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>

What's happening is another routine, expected round of the implosion
of the traditional publishing industry (and the utter irrelevance of
the awards), as fewer and fewer extremists fight over less and less,
and everybody else self publishes through Amazon.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote in
news:mlkt1i$hsn$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 6/14/2015 3:29 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire

>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and
>>> -confusion-at-tor.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will
>>>>> continue to do on a casual basis. I highly doubt that my
>>>>> personal actions will affect them whatsoever but I just
>>>>> cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>>>
>>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come
>>>> in in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary
>>>> of what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>>

>>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an
>>> editor at Tor, made the following posting on her facebook
>>> account and then opened it to the public:
>>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-p
>>> impage.html
>>
>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>>
>

> "Social Justice Warrior". It's a particularly snide way of
> referring to anyone who isn't right wing and says something.

When I was growing up, the term of "malice ridden do-gooder." The
sort of person who would put a gun to your head and order you to do
something republsive, for your own good. In previous centuries,
perhaps, they were the sort would would torture a confession of all
your sins from you, then burn you at the stake so you can't sin
again.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in
news:mll42a$ru8$1...@panix2.panix.com:

> In article <XnsA4B9B67A4B...@216.166.97.131>,

> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote
>>

>>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>>

>> "Social Justice Warrior", a title applied to people who insist
>> on the correctness of their preferred standard of behaviour,
>> applied to them mockingly by people who don't like being told
>> they're wrong.
>>
>> For its opposite, consider MCP.
>>

>> In other words, the normal too and fro of liberals and
>> conservatives,
>
> I think

I doubt it.

> you're selling false equivalence there.
>
I guess it's a defensible position, that a Microsoft Certified
Professional is not the exact opposite of St. John's Wort.

What, exatly, *is* MCP?

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

pete...@gmail.com wrote in
news:c5c5e652-2046-4114...@googlegroups.com:

IQ tests measure nothing but the ability to take IQ tests, and the
enthnic bias in the tests themselves is well known.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mlldqf$oj$2...@dont-email.me:

> On 6/14/15 8:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>
> ... and as I said, MOSTLY I agree with Eric. In this
> particular case, I
> don't think that a personal communication, which can be
> interpreted two ways, is something worth getting worked up over
> and treating as though it was something official.
>
I don't think any of this is worth getting worked up over, including
the impending death of traditional publishing.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
news:c20bd990-44a6-4b8e...@googlegroups.com:

> On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
>> <ahas...@email.com> wrote
>> in<news:a7173363-e07e-4c81...@googlegroups.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> > On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J

>> > Heydt wrote:
>>
>> >> In article <mll3uc$gl4$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> >> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>

>> [...]

>>
>> >>> The page you cite begins with words penned by Vox Day.
>> >>
>> >> Is that his/her/its actual name, or an online handle
>> >> punning on "Vox populi vox Dei"?
>> >

>> > Vox Day's birth name is Theodore Beal -- see
>> > http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/day_vox and
>> > http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?7585
>>
>> Beale.
>>
>> See also
>>
>> <http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale>.
>
> Sorry, we have been experiencing a vowel shortage lately...

Probably caused by global warming. Vowel trees require cooler
tempratures, especially the E Pine.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote in
news:611dfb25-20c3-46a2...@googlegroups.com:

> The post that Lynn linked appears to be a follow-up to Peter
> Grant's (the self-published SF writer who owns the blog) open
> letter to Tom Doherty, the head of Tor Books -- see
> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to
> -tom-doherty-of-tor.html
>
While he seems to have a legitimate beef with Gallo, I seen no reason
for him to direct his complaints ot Tor. OK, maybe Tor has a lot of
high level people who have political views he doesn't like, but Tor
has made it very clear that those individuals speak for themselves,
not for Tor (and so have the individuals).

Grant is practicing guilt by assocaition. Which kinda reminds me of
the people he hates so much (including the South Africans he was so
opposed to).

he's an outrage monkey. He can't stand that other people are not
outraged by the same things he's outraged by.

The other word for that is "wingnut."

[Anonymous]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>
> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>
> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>
> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.

Do'h! I read this, and part of the thread, before I realized that
people weren't talking about the Tor browser!

I'm glad to see that it's just about people who work at a
publishing house getting excited about each other's public
pronouncements.

I will not be boycotting the Tor browsser.



Adamastor Glace Mortimer

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[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>
>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>
>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to do on
>>> a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will affect
>>> them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff behavior lately.
>>

>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>
>A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at Tor,
>made the following posting on her facebook account and then opened it to
>the public:
> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.html

You do know that Vox Day is a total fruitcake, right?

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>On 6/14/2015 4:56 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:npyED...@kithrup.com:
>>
>>> In article <mlkqot$ahu$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire

>>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6/14/2015 3:04 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> In article <mlkjpm$f83$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusi
>>>> on-at-tor.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am personally boycotting Tor at the moment and will continue to
>>>>>> do on a casual basis. I highly doubt that my personal actions will
>>>>>> affect them whatsoever but I just cannot condone their staff
>>>>>> behavior lately.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good heavens, this is all news to me; I feel as if I've come in
>>>>> in the middle of Episode Five of something? Quick summary of
>>>>> what's happening, other than anger doubt and confusion?
>>>>
>>>> A person by the name of Irene Gallo who supposedly is an editor at
>>>> Tor, made the following posting on her facebook account and then
>>>> opened it to the public:
>>>> http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/turbo-charging-award-pimpage.h
>>>> tml
>>>

>>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>>
>>
>> "Social Justice Warrior", a title applied to people who insist on the
>> correctness of their preferred standard of behaviour, applied to them
>> mockingly by people who don't like being told they're wrong.
>>
>> For its opposite, consider MCP.
>>
>> In other words, the normal too and fro of liberals and conservatives,

>> turned toxic by the echo chambers of the internet, where
>>
>> 'Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold.
>> Mere Anarchy Is Loosed Upon the World.
>> The best lack all conviction,
>> while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.'
>>
>> pt
>
>MCP is Master Control Program from Tron?

No, its the Master Control Program for Burroughs mainframes, 25 years
before TRON was a gleem in the producers eye.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:mlkpsk$72l$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 6/14/15 12:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-
>> confusion-at-tor.html
>>
>>
>> I am personally boycotting Tor
>

> Well, now!
> I will see your boycott, and raise you a declaration that I will
> undertake an anti-boycott.
> I will make a special effort to consider reading publications
> from Tor that are neither fantasy nor MilSF nor series nor
> alternate timeline. This should be no burden since the criteria
> will likely produce one or fewer volumes a year.
>
> But I stand firmly on the sifting slime deposited by these
> competing epidemics of logorrhoea, although I cannot deduce any
> discernible meaning in any of the multiple sufferers' excrement.

I vow to continue to purchase books that look like I will enjoy
reading them, without regard to who hates whom, or why.

And to continue to laught at both sides for the outrage monkeys they
are.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote in

news:mlkquc$ah4$2...@dont-email.me:

> On 6/14/2015 1:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>
>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-
>> confusion-at-tor.html
>

> I have no idea what this guy is babbling about.
>
Ultimately, the Hugo circus the last couple of years. Which is to
say, whining that "there aer people who say things I don't like, and
I can't make them stop." Same as the other side(s).

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:oPGdnesoFd0jwePI...@earthlink.com:

> Does someone that DOESN'T have to
> get up at 5:30am this morning for work want to put their memetic
> prophylactic on and sort through what Mr. Grant is actually
> saying?
>
"Other people are not outraged at the same things I'm outraged about,
and I'm going to whine like a little girl until I'm allowed to punish
them for it."

He's as big a wingnut as Beale.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Anonymous <nob...@remailer.paranoici.org> wrote in
news:730420f6dc6f6d8f...@remailer.paranoici.org:

> Do'h! I read this, and part of the thread, before I realized
> that people weren't talking about the Tor browser!
>

That was my initial thought, too. Rather confusing. One more expects
to read about them being investigated by the FBI (and that not
likely0 rather than this sort of nonsense.

[pete...@gmail.com]

They grow best up in the near-arctic, and are a major export of Finland,
along the ancient Central European Vowel-Trail.

At the start, vowels are so plentiful and cheap that you get place names
like Kutusuvaunopaa and Saaranpaskoutamasaari. Moving south from there, you
find the moderate use we find in English, German, and French. Heading towards
the south east, the supply diminishes to a trickle, and the price rises. and
people conserve - Krk and Knin in Croatia, for example. The vowel supply dries
up entirely when you get to the Middle East - neither Hebrew nor Arabic have
written vowels, and they have to use substitute accents.

There are some tropical vowel sources; Hawaii has the Vowel Palm, so they
afford to call their state fish Humuhumunukunukuapua'a, and in Australia the
Bush Vowels let them have Woolloomooloo.

pt

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/14/2015 4:11 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 6/14/2015 3:59 PM, lal_truckee wrote:

>> On 6/14/15 12:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> "Anger, doubt and confusion at Tor?"
>>>
>>> http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/anger-doubt-and-confusion-at-tor.html
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> I am personally boycotting Tor
>>
>> Well, now!
>> I will see your boycott, and raise you a declaration that I will
>> undertake an anti-boycott.
>> I will make a special effort to consider reading publications from Tor
>> that are neither fantasy nor MilSF nor series nor alternate timeline.
>> This should be no burden since the criteria will likely produce one or
>> fewer volumes a year.
>>
>> But I stand firmly on the sifting slime deposited by these competing
>> epidemics of logorrhoea, although I cannot deduce any discernible
>> meaning in any of the multiple sufferers' excrement.
>

> Excellent, go for it!
>
> I purchase 50 to 60 books per year and lately have been reading mostly indies using POD at Amazon. So, boycotting Tor will affect me
> very little. Although, I was heartened by Tom Doherty's posting on the matter:
>
> http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/
>
> Lynn

I briefly scanned my 500 book SBR (strategic book reserve) last night and noted that I have at least a dozen Tor books in it waiting
to be read. Books by Scalzi, Bova, Forstchen, etc. This boycott thing is not going well.

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

Clinically insane, perhaps. A chip off the old block, certainly.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

pete...@gmail.com wrote in
news:e5e3a5b0-893e-4cbf...@googlegroups.com:

Perhaps if we ever really master quantum computers, we can make
synthetic vowels.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:49:54 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
<ahas...@email.com> wrote
in<news:c20bd990-44a6-4b8e...@googlegroups.com>

in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC-4, Brian M.
> Scott wrote:

>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
>> <ahas...@email.com> wrote
>> in<news:a7173363-e07e-4c81...@googlegroups.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

>>> Vox Day's birth name is Theodore Beal -- see
>>> http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/day_vox and
>>> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?7585

>> Beale.

>> See also

>> <http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale>.

> Sorry, we have been experiencing a vowel shortage lately...

Damn’ vowels just keep moving ...

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[William Vetter]

St. Cyril did that.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:14:59 GMT, Scott Lurndal
<sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote
in<news:nKDfx.232932$_o7....@fx05.iad> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:

[...]

>> MCP is Master Control Program from Tron?

> No, its the Master Control Program for Burroughs
> mainframes, 25 years before TRON was a gleem in the
> producers eye.

TRON was a toothpaste? (Damned careless of the producer to
get it in his eye.)

[Scott Lurndal]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes:
>On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:14:59 GMT, Scott Lurndal
><sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote
>in<news:nKDfx.232932$_o7....@fx05.iad> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>
>[...]
>
>>> MCP is Master Control Program from Tron?
>
>> No, its the Master Control Program for Burroughs
>> mainframes, 25 years before TRON was a gleem in the
>> producers eye.
>
>TRON was a toothpaste? (Damned careless of the producer to
>get it in his eye.)

Stings, donchaknow.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/15/15 12:37 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:mlldqf$oj$2...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 6/14/15 8:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>
>> ... and as I said, MOSTLY I agree with Eric. In this
>> particular case, I
>> don't think that a personal communication, which can be
>> interpreted two ways, is something worth getting worked up over
>> and treating as though it was something official.
>>
> I don't think any of this is worth getting worked up over, including
> the impending death of traditional publishing.
>

That's because traditional publishing isn't making the difference
between making ends meet and slowly descending into poverty. If I
thought traditional publishing was going to die I'd be worried.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in

news:mlnkuq$7qf$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 6/15/15 12:37 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> news:mlldqf$oj$2...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 6/14/15 8:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> ... and as I said, MOSTLY I agree with Eric. In this
>>> particular case, I
>>> don't think that a personal communication, which can be
>>> interpreted two ways, is something worth getting worked up
>>> over and treating as though it was something official.
>>>
>> I don't think any of this is worth getting worked up over,
>> including the impending death of traditional publishing.
>>
>
>
> That's because traditional publishing isn't making the
> difference
> between making ends meet and slowly descending into poverty. If
> I thought traditional publishing was going to die I'd be
> worried.
>

There's a few years left, but yeah, it's dying. Partly becauase it
serves less purpose - one no longer need large amounts of capital
to break in to the business, homeless people can self publish the
next Harry Potter - and partly because the big publishing houses
are unable to adapt to the changing market (which is true of pretty
much all well netrenched industries that have not had to face
disruptive changes for a logn time).

I agree it's sad to us, as readers, because I'm not at all certain
that there will be a suitable alternate system developed. But
whether there is or not, the industry is dying, and will be gone or
unrecognizable within a generation or two.

Certainly, this current (and ongoing for several years, now) circle
jerk is a smaller and smaller number of people fighting over less
and less. And the awards (remember the awards?) have been
irrelevant for years.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-15, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>> Please forgive the previous Vox Day reference as several people
>> here and on the net appear to believe the man is crazy.
>
> No. We "appear" to believe that he is a racist, sexist, homophobic,
> sociopathic dipshit attention junkie who long ago learned that one
> can achieve great and long-lasting notoriety by making a regular
> practice of defecating in public. I don't think anyone has claimed
> that he's crazy.

tl;dr: we don't think he's crazy, exactly, but the majority opinion holds more
than a hint of "smells strongly like EVIL. Mom! Dad! Don't touch it!".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-15, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com wrote in

>>> Probably caused by global warming. Vowel trees require cooler
>>> tempratures, especially the E Pine.
>>
>> They grow best up in the near-arctic, and are a major export of
>> Finland, along the ancient Central European Vowel-Trail.
>>
>> At the start, vowels are so plentiful and cheap that you get
>> place names like Kutusuvaunopaa and Saaranpaskoutamasaari.
>> Moving south from there, you find the moderate use we find in
>> English, German, and French. Heading towards the south east, the
>> supply diminishes to a trickle, and the price rises. and people
>> conserve - Krk and Knin in Croatia, for example. The vowel
>> supply dries up entirely when you get to the Middle East -
>> neither Hebrew nor Arabic have written vowels, and they have to
>> use substitute accents.
>>
>> There are some tropical vowel sources; Hawaii has the Vowel
>> Palm, so they afford to call their state fish
>> Humuhumunukunukuapua'a, and in Australia the Bush Vowels let
>> them have Woolloomooloo.
>
> Perhaps if we ever really master quantum computers, we can make
> synthetic vowels.

Certainly - but at the risk that they are pronounceable by NO HUMAN PALATE...
{sfx: theremin}

Dave, and they may not fit into UNICODE either

ps: the experimental collisions to attempt producing them should keep the
industry in serifs and accents for a couple hundred years, though

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-15, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in

>> Does someone that DOESN'T have to
>> get up at 5:30am this morning for work want to put their memetic
>> prophylactic on and sort through what Mr. Grant is actually saying?
>
> "Other people are not outraged at the same things I'm outraged about,
> and I'm going to whine like a little girl until I'm allowed to punish
> them for it."
>
> He's as big a wingnut as Beale.

But one who doesn't have as much press. Got it. Thx Terry!

Dave, the flame wars will continue until VD stops adding several new tempests
and throwing grease on the stove each time a teapot looks like it might get
extinguished

ps: will mix metaphors horribly for memefood

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 06:26:10 +0100, A.G.McDowell wrote:

> PS - he claims strong legs make you good at riding bikes uphill. That is
> simply incorrect, because you have to carry those big strong legs uphill
> with you. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28363129. Anybody know if
> his Karate is any more reliable?

Riding a bike uphill without strong legs is even harder.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Appropos to very little, every time I see this subject line, I can't
help but think "Tenser said the tensor.."
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <OO2dnQNGscag7OLI...@earthlink.com>,

And then there's the classic Onion story:

"Clinton Deploys Vowels to Bosnia"

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~beatrice/humor/clinton-deploys-vowels.html

[lal_truckee]

On 6/15/15 9:07 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> Appropos to very little, every time I see this subject line, I can't
> help but think "Tenser said the tensor.."

Tension, apprehension, and dissension have begun.
Yep: it fits.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in

news:OO2dnQJGscZy7OLI...@earthlink.com:

> On 2015-06-15, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>>> Does someone that DOESN'T have to
>>> get up at 5:30am this morning for work want to put their
>>> memetic prophylactic on and sort through what Mr. Grant is
>>> actually saying?
>>
>> "Other people are not outraged at the same things I'm outraged
>> about, and I'm going to whine like a little girl until I'm
>> allowed to punish them for it."
>>
>> He's as big a wingnut as Beale.
>
> But one who doesn't have as much press.

Yeah, well, not everybody ca throw their poo at the tourists as well
as Vox Day.

> Got it. Thx Terry!

I live to serve.

>
> Dave, the flame wars will continue until VD stops adding several
> new tempests
> and throwing grease on the stove each time a teapot looks like
> it might get extinguished
>
> ps: will mix metaphors horribly for memefood

I'm now chuckling at the initials VD, which has more than one
meaning, both of which might reasonably be applied to Mr. Beale.

[Scott Lurndal]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> writes:

>
>I'm now chuckling at the initials VD, which has more than one
>meaning, both of which might reasonably be applied to Mr. Beale.
>

TB and VD are both nasty diseases.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:31:34 -0500, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

[snip]

>I briefly scanned my 500 book SBR (strategic book reserve) last night and noted that I have at least a dozen Tor books in it waiting
>to be read. Books by Scalzi, Bova, Forstchen, etc. This boycott thing is not going well.

A dozen (or a bit more) out of 500 is not that much. How
relevant is Tor to you?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Lynn McGuire]

I am not sure what you asking but I will give it a shot anyway. From a
consumer viewpoint, very much so. I have three by Scalzi, four by Card,
none by Weber at the moment, one by Forstchen, one by Bova (and two more
to be acquired).

My SBR is only 50% SF, BTW. I also read adventure (Jack Higgins),
murder mysteries, biographies, etc.

Lynn

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA4BA5FB5499...@69.16.179.42>,
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote
>> On 6/14/2015 3:29 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, next question, what's a SJW?
>>
>> "Social Justice Warrior". It's a particularly snide way of
>> referring to anyone who isn't right wing and says something.
>
> When I was growing up, the term of "malice ridden do-gooder." The
> sort of person who would put a gun to your head and order you to
> do something republsive, for your own good. In previous centuries,
> perhaps, they were the sort would would torture a confession of
> all your sins from you, then burn you at the stake so you can't
> sin again.

I don't think that "for your own good" is part of the {men's rights
activist | Rabid Puppy | assholes like that} definition of "Social
Justice Warrior". More like "because they hate us".

By the way, since you're roughly middle-aged now and I know that you
grew up in one of the states that begins with "Miss" even if I
forget which one, I've kind of got to ask whether the "repulsive
thing" in question was often something like "act as if dark-skinned
people have the same rights as everybody else".

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA4BA641BECF...@69.16.179.42>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> Grant is practicing guilt by assocaition. Which kinda reminds me of
> the people he hates so much (including the South Africans he was so
> opposed to).
>
> he's an outrage monkey. He can't stand that other people are not
> outraged by the same things he's outraged by.
>
> The other word for that is "wingnut."

I thought they were outrage _junkies_.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <i%Dfx.232933$_o7.1...@fx05.iad>,

Holy moley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Beale_(entrepreneur)

I never knew that.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA4BA686CA79...@69.16.179.42>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> I vow to continue to purchase books that look like I will
> enjoy reading them, without regard to who hates whom, or why.

And I vow to keep reading books for free through MITSFS
because I'm cheap.

At least until the tide of "only available electronically"
rises too high.

-- wds

[Shawn Wilson]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 10:23:14 AM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:


> My SBR is only 50% SF, BTW. I also read adventure (Jack Higgins),

Oooh, have you read the Destroyer (Remo/Chiun) series?

[William December Starr]

In article <OO2dnQJGscZy7OLI...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> said:

> Dave, the flame wars will continue until VD stops adding several
> new tempests and throwing grease on the stove each time a teapot
> looks like it might get extinguished
>
> ps: will mix metaphors horribly for memefood

Hmm, that's an avenue the Mythbusters didn't explore when they did
their "throwing water on a grease fire" bit: throwing *grease* on it.

-- wds