Inner earth civilizations

[tobymax43]

Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth civilizations. Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What scientific basis was
used. Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <22006217.113.1324926082297.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbad17>,

tobymax43 <rec.arts....@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth
>civilizations. Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What
>scientific basis was used.

None.

>Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

Of course it doesn't, in light of what we now know about the
interior of the earth. But in the nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries they didn't know that stuff.

We started learning about the earth's innards after the 1906 San
Francisco earthquake. Geologists started researching what kind of
damage was done, how far away from the epicenter, and examining
eyewitness accounts. I don't know how long it took them to
invent the seismograph, nor to discover how to distinguish P-waves
from S-waves. A while, I assume (not wishing to look it up at
the moment).

_Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz_ was published in 1908. It depicts
California as riddled with constant earthquakes that could easily
swallow you up at any time, an opinion shared by most people who
lived somewhere else. Note that Baum was still living in
Chicago at the time, not moving to California unitl 1910.

So at the time, Baum had no more idea than anyone else what was
beneath the surface, and he was writing a fantasy anyway, so was
free to make up what amused him.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[William George Ferguson]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 11:01:22 -0800 (PST), tobymax43 <tob...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth civilizations. Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What scientific basis was
>used. Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

There is a rather sharp dichotomy between Burroughs' Pellucidar (and other
similar stories) and the others you cite. Burroughs followed in the
footsteos of several earlier authors in positing a 'hollow earth' with
openings to the interior at the poles (this had originally been a
scientific theory but was completely discredited well before Burroughs'
time).

The more common trope is 'subterranean civilizations', which generally are
located in caves and caverns. Verne's Journey is completely through a
planet-wide system of volcanic caverns, which his protagonists entered
through a volcanic vent in Iceland, and exited through a volcanic vent in
Italy. All of Baum's underground civilizations are cavern based (and
actually start in book 3, with the Kingdom of the Nomes), The earliest
stories of cavern-based underground civilizations go back as far as stories
go back. As to why people would believe it, they had hands-on experience
with caves that had life and livable temperatures, imagining some kind of
interior light wasn't that hard.

.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)

[David Johnston]

On 12/26/2011 12:01 PM, tobymax43 wrote:
> Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth civilizations. Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What scientific basis was
> used. Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

Scientific bases are wimps. Not manly action heros in loincloths.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jdalbs$3m5$2...@dont-email.me>,

Dante, on the other hand, got it approximately right. Okay, so
Hell is not a funnel-shaped pit starting from somewhere below
Jerusalem and winding down all the way to the center of the earth
and continuing as a narrow passage all the way to the other
side, coming out on the shores of Mount Purgatory, which is the
only land in the Southern Hemisphere; he was following current
theory that said

(a) that since the further south you went, the hotter it got, and
therefore around the Equator there must be a burning zone through
which no life could pass;

(b) therefore there must be no land in the southern hemisphere,
because if there were people living there the Gospel could never
reach them and God wouldn't do that to them.

BUT ... when Virgil and Dante get down to the center of the
earth, by climbing down Lucifer's tail, they turn around 180
degrees and start climbing *upward*. For 1300 C.E., that's not
so bad.

[tphile2]

On Dec 26, 3:49 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <jdalbs$3m...@dont-email.me>,

This was when the earth was flat, right? So how thick was it anyway?
and when do they meet the giant turtle, gamera?

[Drak Bibliophile]

"tphile2" <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:5a389bb9-035b-47d2...@p41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Educated people in 1300 CE knew the world was round. Columbus's problem was
that educated people (correctly) knew the distance to China was longer than
he thought.


--
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins!
*
--------
*

[Jonathan]

"tobymax43" <tob...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:22006217.113.1324926082297.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbad17...

I've always wondered why hollow Earth, or journey to the
center of the Earth plots eems to be such a recurring theme.




s

[Robert Carnegie]

On Dec 27, 12:01 am, "Jonathan" <Callinst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "tobymax43" <toby...@comcast.net> wrote in message

I suppose it's somewhere to put your "Lost World" without exposure, in
an era of air travel anywhere in the world.

However, the hollow Earth isn't a goer in good old reality, despite
one or more ancient philosophers liking the idea (?), and one
Victorian religious nut who declared /this/ is the interior of a
hollow world (without an outside, if you don't count Heaven and Hell I
suppose). And, hello Godwin, it has been claimed that Hitler and/or
the Nazis believed it. Of course, you can accuse them of believing
any old rubbish, they're not around to complain.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5a389bb9-035b-47d2...@p41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

>This was when the earth was flat, right? So how thick was it anyway?
>and when do they meet the giant turtle, gamera?

NO. This was not when the earth was flat. The ancient Greeks
knew that a lunar eclipse was caused by the earth's shadow
blocking the sun's light from the moon; and they observed that
whenever there was a lunar eclipse, no matter where the moon was
in relation to the earth, the shadow was always curved. The only
thing that can cast a round shadow from every angle was a sphere.

In the third century B.C., Eratosthenes made a very close
estimate of the actual size of the earth, by sending someone from
Alexandria -- where the shadows cast at the summer solstice were
seven degrees off the vertical -- to Cyene, where the shadows at
the summer solstice were straight up and down. The guy paced off
the distance between Alexandria and Cyene, Eratosthenes did a few
calculations, and announced that the earth was Iforgethowmany
stadia across. Very close to the real figure.

And everybody said "Oh no! The earth CAN'T be that big!"

Dante knew perfectly well that the earth was round. But he
placed the zero meridian at the longitude of Jerusalem, the 90
degree longitude at the Ganges, and the 180 degree longitude at
the Pillars of Hercules, that is, Gibraltar.

You're thinking of Columbus, right? EVERYbody knows that
EVERYbody thought the world was flat until Columbus proved it was
round. Not so.

They were still arguing about the size of the earth. Nobody
wanted to believe that Eratosthenes could've been right. That's
how Columbus was able to convince Isabella that China and
Indonesia, with their rich trading opportunities, was just a
reasonable distance away westward, and Spanish ships could get
there without having to get through the Arabs who owned the
eastward trading routes. I dare say some ignorant people,
including some of his crew, were afraid they'd fall off the edge
of the earth, but actually sailors ought to have been the easiest
to convince that the earth's surface was curved. If you stand at
the port, looking out to sea, waiting for a ship to come in,
you'll see first the top sails, and then the lower sails, and
finally the hull as it comes up over the curve of the earth.

Also, no giant turtles.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <YbKdnXzZuOZLl2TT...@giganews.com>,

It's somewhere that hadn't been explored, after most of the
surface area had ... barring central Africa and high plateaus in
South America, which were also useful places for setting
fantastic stories. And the moon and other planets, of course,
which were even harder to get to.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5a77bed0-e3d7-4033...@v14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

And besides, they were able to get "Raiders of the Lost Ark" out
of it.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Dec 27, 12:39 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> You're thinking of Columbus, right?  EVERYbody knows that
> EVERYbody thought the world was flat until Columbus proved it was
> round.  Not so.

I've heard Washington Irving blamed for that. Maybe you could add the
Gershwins.

> They were still arguing about the size of the earth.  Nobody
> wanted to believe that Eratosthenes could've been right.  That's
> how Columbus was able to convince Isabella that China and
> Indonesia, with their rich trading opportunities, was just a
> reasonable distance away westward, and Spanish ships could get
> there without having to get through the Arabs who owned the
> eastward trading routes.  I dare say some ignorant people,
> including some of his crew, were afraid they'd fall off the edge
> of the earth, but actually sailors ought to have been the easiest
> to convince that the earth's surface was curved.  If you stand at
> the port, looking out to sea, waiting for a ship to come in,
> you'll see first the top sails, and then the lower sails, and
> finally the hull as it comes up over the curve of the earth.

A discussion of this just went by here or elsewhere; it works better
if you're on the ship, looking for the land. Ships are hard to see at
the range.

> Also, no giant turtles.

Well, not /that/ kind.

[Kip Williams]

Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Dec 27, 12:39 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> You're thinking of Columbus, right? EVERYbody knows that
>> EVERYbody thought the world was flat until Columbus proved it was
>> round. Not so.
>
> I've heard Washington Irving blamed for that. Maybe you could add the
> Gershwins.
>

And Warren Foster, or perhaps Bob McKimson — writer and director,
respectively, of the 1951 Bugs Bunny short HARE WE GO, in which Bugs
meets Cristobal Colón, aka Chris Columbus. There's a scene where
Columbus (with Mel Blanc's Italian-a accent) argues the shape of the
world with King Ferdinand (with Mel Blanc's Mexican accent, I theenk).


Kip W
rasfw

[Dimensional Traveler]

Either way it was lucky for the turtle(s). Sailors of the period would
have almost certainly eaten it. :P

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<b172e98d-a2fc-4d32...@q8g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_(tortoise)>

Harriet (c. 1830 - June 23, 2006) was a Galápagos tortoise (Geochelone
nigra porteri) who had an estimated age of 175 years at the time of her
death in Australia. Harriet is the third oldest tortoise ever
authenticated, behind Tu'i Malila, who died in 1965 at the age of 188,
and Adwaita, who died in 2006 at the estimated age of 255.

</quote>

RIP

--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <4ef95e2d$0$1654$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

Well ... in theory, they would've taken it for an island, camped
on it, built a fire to cook with, awakened the turtle from its
sleep, and been drowned. That's what happens in all the stories.
Cf. Tolkien, "Fastitocalon."

[Larry Headlund]

Well I can come up with two ObSFs on the topic.

Willy Ley, occasional SF writer and Astounding columnist, wrote the
article "Pseudoscience in Naziland" in 1947, when some of them we're
still around to complain.

Another sometime SF writer Matin Gardner talks about hollow earth
theories in his "Fads and fallacies in the name of science." He
describes the religious group you referenced.

[David Johnston]

On 12/27/2011 9:50 AM, Larry Headlund wrote:

> Well I can come up with two ObSFs on the topic.
>
> Willy Ley, occasional SF writer and Astounding columnist, wrote the
> article "Pseudoscience in Naziland" in 1947, when some of them we're
> still around to complain.

http://www.alpenfestung.com/ley_pseudoscience.htm

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jdct18$q8f$1...@pcls6.std.com>,

Larry Headlund <l...@world.std.com> wrote:
>On 12/26/2011 07:41 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Dec 27, 12:01 am, "Jonathan"<Callinst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "tobymax43"<toby...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:22006217.113.1324926082297.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbad17...
>>>
>>>> Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth civilizations.
>>>> Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What scientific basis
>>>> was
>>>> used. Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.
>>>
>>> I've always wondered why hollow Earth, or journey to the
>>> center of the Earth plots eems to be such a recurring theme.
>>
>> I suppose it's somewhere to put your "Lost World" without exposure, in
>> an era of air travel anywhere in the world.
>>
>> However, the hollow Earth isn't a goer in good old reality, despite
>> one or more ancient philosophers liking the idea (?), and one
>> Victorian religious nut who declared /this/ is the interior of a
>> hollow world (without an outside, if you don't count Heaven and Hell I
>> suppose). And, hello Godwin, it has been claimed that Hitler and/or
>> the Nazis believed it. Of course, you can accuse them of believing
>> any old rubbish, they're not around to complain.
>
>Well I can come up with two ObSFs on the topic.
>
>Willy Ley, occasional SF writer and Astounding columnist, wrote the
>article "Pseudoscience in Naziland" in 1947, when some of them we're
>still around to complain.

And he had left Germany in the mid-1930s to get away from them.

[Uncle Steve]

I am amused to read a description of 'Ariosophy', which reminds me of
a bartender at a pub (now closed for a couple of years) called "The
Devil's Advocate". Among other things he disparaged my use of English
as 'interpretive', meaning that I thought about what I spoke or
heard, rather than understanding or speaking 'naturally' from
'feeling'. To this day, I'm not quite sure how he ascertained how I
understood or spoke, nor how it differed from how he did it, but I do
recall that he was quite condescending about it. Ah well, perhaps he
was part angel, or maybe I smelled wrong.

I still get harassed by one of his bartenders when I encounter her
downtown. (What a bitch; "superior" yet without the intellect to back
it up.)


Regards,

Uncle Steve

--
We no longer have much of a government, but the bureaucracy lives on.

[jack...@bright.net]

tobymax43 wrote:

>Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the Andes_
by Rex Stout:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546

There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from making
out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.

No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes it
sound.

--
-Jack

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <o4tlf7tc9mop85csu...@4ax.com>,

On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which
they learn to echolocate.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<o4tlf7tc9mop85csu...@4ax.com>,
> <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>> tobymax43 wrote:
>>
>>> Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.
>>
>> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the Andes_
>> by Rex Stout:
>>
>> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
>>
>> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from making
>> out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
>>
>> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes it
>> sound.

I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better known
for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd work at
writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.

>
> On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which
> they learn to echolocate.

Which I find eminently believable as I've used that on occasion myself
as a backup method.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Quadibloc]

On Dec 27, 2:46 pm, Uncle Steve <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am amused to read a description of 'Ariosophy', which reminds me of
> a bartender at a pub (now closed for a couple of years) called "The
> Devil's Advocate".  Among other things he disparaged my use of English
> as 'interpretive', meaning that I thought about what I spoke or
> heard, rather than understanding or speaking 'naturally' from
> 'feeling'.

Since speaking without thinking is a common fault, avoiding that fault
is a virtue. And human emotions have been the same for millions of
years, while human thought is an edifice to which the discoveries of
ages have made additions.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jdfia9$ra4$2...@dont-email.me>,

I've never been able to do that, alas. Yes, there are random
noises in the house in the middle of the night when I have to get
up to visit the bathroom. But I'm not able to tell where they
are.

On the other hand, our flat is so crowded with furniture 'n'
stuff that I can feel my way from place to place.

And on the OTHER hand, we have a tiny night-light, you know the kind,
15-watt bulb filtered through a translucent bit of blue glass, which
when there is no other light in the house* provides a surprisingly
useful amount of light-scattering.

_____
*Well, there are the tiny power LEDs on the UPSs and the KVM
switch on Hal's desk. But those aren't much use unless I
*wanted* to go to Hal's desk in the dark, which I don't.

All here know, don't they, that what the designer of the flat
thought was going to be the living room, contains both our bed
and all the computers and their paraphernalia? The two
"bedrooms" contain books.

[W. Citoan]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>
> >> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the
> >> Andes_ by Rex Stout:
> >>
> >> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
> >>
> >> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from
> >> making out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
> >>
> >> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes
> >> it sound.
>
> I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better
> known for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd
> work at writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.

He wrote that in 1914 & it was his second[1] novel. Nero Wolfe did not
appear until 1934, 20 years later.

[1] I believe, but it was certainly amongst his first ones.

- W. Citoan
--
The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and
the pessimist fears this is true.
-- Branch Cabell

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 12/28/11 2:22 PM, W. Citoan wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the
>>>> Andes_ by Rex Stout:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
>>>>
>>>> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from
>>>> making out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
>>>>
>>>> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes
>>>> it sound.
>>
>> I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better
>> known for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd
>> work at writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.
>

> He wrote that in 1914& it was his second[1] novel. Nero Wolfe did not

> appear until 1934, 20 years later.
>

Ah! That makes sense. Yes, my 20-year-ago versions of stuff are
(mostly) a lot lamer than stuff I write now.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <slrnjfmr3l....@wcitoan-via.eternal-september.org>,

W. Citoan <wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:
>Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the
>> >> Andes_ by Rex Stout:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
>> >>
>> >> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from
>> >> making out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
>> >>
>> >> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes
>> >> it sound.
>>
>> I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better
>> known for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd
>> work at writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.
>
>He wrote that in 1914 & it was his second[1] novel. Nero Wolfe did not
>appear until 1934, 20 years later.
>
> [1] I believe, but it was certainly amongst his first ones.

Yup. It has been said, and it is true of most of us, that we
each have a million words of crap inside of us, and can't write
well till we write those million words out.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 12/28/11 2:39 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<slrnjfmr3l....@wcitoan-via.eternal-september.org>,
> W. Citoan<wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the
>>>>> Andes_ by Rex Stout:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from
>>>>> making out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes
>>>>> it sound.
>>>
>>> I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better
>>> known for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd
>>> work at writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.
>>

>> He wrote that in 1914& it was his second[1] novel. Nero Wolfe did not

>> appear until 1934, 20 years later.
>>
>> [1] I believe, but it was certainly amongst his first ones.
>
> Yup. It has been said, and it is true of most of us, that we
> each have a million words of crap inside of us, and can't write
> well till we write those million words out.
>

Yes... fortunately for everyone else I started writing those million
words at 11 and submitted many of them as extra credit in high school,
so only teachers were harmed in the process.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <jdfrmc$nh4$3...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

Well I hope so. I received an Amazon gift card for xmas and so GCA,
among others, is inbound.

I started purging the crap at age nine, but the program unfortunately
stalled before completion.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 12/28/11 3:24 PM, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article<jdfrmc$nh4$3...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
> says...
>>
>> On 12/28/11 2:39 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>>> Yup. It has been said, and it is true of most of us, that we
>>> each have a million words of crap inside of us, and can't write
>>> well till we write those million words out.
>>>
>> Yes... fortunately for everyone else I started writing those million
>> words at 11 and submitted many of them as extra credit in high school,
>> so only teachers were harmed in the process.
>
> Well I hope so. I received an Amazon gift card for xmas and so GCA,
> among others, is inbound.

Cool!

I make no promise that the STORY will be good for any individual
reader, just that it won't contain the more egregious ... story mistakes
that I made when starting out.

[David DeLaney]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>Since speaking without thinking is a common fault, avoiding that fault
>is a virtue. And human emotions have been the same for millions of
>years,

Nonsense. Every generation of teenagers discovers ENTIRELY NEW emotions, which
have never been had by ANY previous human, especially the ones they're directly
related to.

>while human thought is an edifice to which the discoveries of
>ages have made additions.

However, most people don't want to pay the add-on fees, they just want the
Royal Road plug-in.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which
>>> they learn to echolocate.
>>
>> Which I find eminently believable as I've used that on occasion myself
>>as a backup method.
>>
>I've never been able to do that, alas. Yes, there are random
>noises in the house in the middle of the night when I have to get
>up to visit the bathroom. But I'm not able to tell where they are.

Oh wait. it took me THIS long to realize the original reference does NOT say
"e-chocolate"...

Dave "that would be a useful, if specialized, sense to have" DeLaney

[Quadibloc]

On Dec 29, 10:28 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

> Nonsense. Every generation of teenagers discovers ENTIRELY NEW emotions, which
> have never been had by ANY previous human, especially the ones they're directly
> related to.

Their parents have only themselves to blame for this delusion. It may
not be as bad in how girls are raised - but while young boys are
taught the facts of life by their parents, they are not educated so as
to know the score.

But it's not reasonable to expect parents to work to make their
children competent at doing what they shouldn't. And it does make
sense that sincerity is more to be valued than the ability to secure
the most advantageous marriage.

John Savard

[Kip Williams]

David DeLaney wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which
>>>> they learn to echolocate.
>>>
>>> Which I find eminently believable as I've used that on occasion myself
>>> as a backup method.
>>>
>> I've never been able to do that, alas. Yes, there are random
>> noises in the house in the middle of the night when I have to get
>> up to visit the bathroom. But I'm not able to tell where they are.
>
> Oh wait. it took me THIS long to realize the original reference does NOT say
> "e-chocolate"...
>
> Dave "that would be a useful, if specialized, sense to have" DeLaney

It would replace the candygram.


Kip W
rasfw

[erilar]

In article <slrnjfmr3l....@wcitoan-via.eternal-september.org>,
"W. Citoan" <wci...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > On 12/28/11 11:58 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > >>
> > >> You think having inner light made little sense? Try _Under the
> > >> Andes_ by Rex Stout:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/546
> > >>
> > >> There is no light, Our heroes just get used to the dark, from
> > >> making out shapes, to the point of seeing detail.
> > >>
> > >> No, don't read it, the story is even worse than that detail makes
> > >> it sound.
> >
> > I find it particularly astounding given that Stout is much better
> > known for the absolutely fabulous Nero Wolfe novels; you'd think he'd
> > work at writing good stuff no matter what genre it was in.
>
> He wrote that in 1914 & it was his second[1] novel. Nero Wolfe did not
> appear until 1934, 20 years later.
>
> [1] I believe, but it was certainly amongst his first ones.

He learned how to write in the interval 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <LwxFI...@kithrup.com>,

The lights on the VCR, DVR, and a couple things under my desk do offer a
surprising amount of light, but it's in the wrong places. However, if I
turn on the tiny nightlight with the Christmas tree bulb, there's plenty
of light to find my way around. . . except when the power goes out, but
I have a flashlight next to the clock radio at the head of the bead 8-)

footnote: the house is all one room except for the bathroom.
Nevertheless, it contains several thousand books, even though most are
around the outside walls.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:30:10 -0500, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David
DeLaney) wrote:

[snip]

>Oh wait. it took me THIS long to realize the original reference does NOT say
>"e-chocolate"...

Is that like printing Internet pizza?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[David DeLaney]

Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>[snip]
>>Oh wait. it took me THIS long to realize the original reference does NOT say
>>"e-chocolate"...
>
> Is that like printing Internet pizza?

Also related to hypercoffee transport protocol, hctp:// .

Dave

[Walter Bushell]

In article <lr3Lq.4562$ae4....@newsfe01.iad>,

<-: Shark Attack!><

[jack...@bright.net]

erilar wrote:

>The lights on the VCR, DVR, and a couple things under my desk do offer a
>surprising amount of light, but it's in the wrong places. However, if I
>turn on the tiny nightlight with the Christmas tree bulb, there's plenty
>of light to find my way around. . . except when the power goes out, but
>I have a flashlight next to the clock radio at the head of the bead 8-)
>
>footnote: the house is all one room except for the bathroom.
>Nevertheless, it contains several thousand books, even though most are
>around the outside walls.

If only you could claim tax credit for insulation!

I used to be quite good at walking around the house in the dark, or
with my eyes closed. Alas, my housekeeping habits have degenerated to
those of a character in _The Love Affairs of a Bibliomaniac_ who kept
piling the reference materials around his room. (He kept the servants
from moving anything because he knew where he'd put them, but when the
final path through the room got too choked, he would have to lock the
door, and betake himself to different quarters.)

--
-Jack

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which
>they learn to echolocate.

Is that the one where a mutant subspecies (zivvers) have eyes that can
see infrared?
--
"Recessions catch what the auditors miss." (Galbraith)

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>And on the OTHER hand, we have a tiny night-light, you know the kind,
>15-watt bulb filtered through a translucent bit of blue glass, which
>when there is no other light in the house* provides a surprisingly
>useful amount of light-scattering.

It's interesting that "tiny" is a 15 watt bulb while the light next to
my bed here is a 13 watt that (falsely) claims to be 60 watt
equivalent. I have an under-cupboard light in the kitchen that runs
at, I think 0.2 watt. I leave it on as a night light. My sister had
a night-light in her room when she was a child (early seventies) that
was 0.003 watts. I suspect that electroluminescent panels burn less
power now.

>
>_____
>*Well, there are the tiny power LEDs on the UPSs and the KVM
>switch on Hal's desk. But those aren't much use unless I
>*wanted* to go to Hal's desk in the dark, which I don't.

I have a USB hard drive that I sometimes use in the bedroom. I have
to turn it off (or leave the LED disconnected when re-assembling it)
because the light is bright enough to keep me awake.

I live in the city and have a window in the bathroom. If I sat down
to go, I wouldn't need to turn a light on.

[Dan Goodman]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:50:11 -0700, Greg Goss wrote:

> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which they
>>learn to echolocate.
>
> Is that the one where a mutant subspecies (zivvers) have eyes that can
> see infrared?

Yes.



--
Dan Goodman

[Dan Goodman]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:50:11 -0700, Greg Goss wrote:

> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>On the other hand, there's Galouye's _Dark Universe_, in which they
>>learn to echolocate.
>
> Is that the one where a mutant subspecies (zivvers) have eyes that can
> see infrared?

Yes.



--
Dan Goodman

[Greg Goss]

Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:30:10 -0500, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David
>DeLaney) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Oh wait. it took me THIS long to realize the original reference does NOT say
>>"e-chocolate"...
>
> Is that like printing Internet pizza?

It's gotta be cheaper than getting tomato-flavoured cardboard
delivered.

[Scott Lurndal]

tobymax43 <tob...@comcast.net> writes:
>Verne, Burroughs, Baum (WOO Book 4) all created inner earth civilizations. Granted Verne just had barbric people living there. What scientific basis was
>used. Having life, inner light and livable temps make little sense.

Another book with an "inner earth" civilization found by a couple of IIRC
mining geologists was recorded by Coblentz, Stanton A. in _Hidden World_.

scott

[Robert Carnegie]

On Jan 2, 12:55 am, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

> djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
> >And on the OTHER hand, we have a tiny night-light, you know the kind,
> >15-watt bulb filtered through a translucent bit of blue glass, which
> >when there is no other light in the house* provides a surprisingly
> >useful amount of light-scattering.
>
> It's interesting that "tiny" is a 15 watt bulb while the light next to
> my bed here is a 13 watt that (falsely) claims to be 60 watt
> equivalent.  I have an under-cupboard light in the kitchen that runs
> at, I think 0.2 watt.  I leave it on as a night light.  My sister had
> a night-light in her room when she was a child (early seventies) that
> was 0.003 watts.  I suspect that electroluminescent panels burn less
> power now.

That last doesn't sound right, at first. It won't illuminate much
besides itself. Maybe it doesn't need to.

It's sort of a rule of thumb that an incandescent lamp of say 100
watts produces about 10 watts of useful light, but otherwise,
different units are used, e.g. stellar magnitude...

> I have a USB hard drive that I sometimes use in the bedroom.  I have
> to turn it off (or leave the LED disconnected when re-assembling it)
> because the light is bright enough to keep me awake.

Flashing is particularly bad, I find.

An electric heater in my bedroom quit working so I've been leaving the
full-size-ish LCD TV on at night, on no channel. It changes the room
light level detectably although it "should be" a black screen, but I
can tolerate it.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <9mcdjs...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>And on the OTHER hand, we have a tiny night-light, you know the kind,
>>15-watt bulb filtered through a translucent bit of blue glass, which
>>when there is no other light in the house* provides a surprisingly
>>useful amount of light-scattering.
>
>It's interesting that "tiny" is a 15 watt bulb

It's a tiny *incandescent* bulb.

while the light next to
>my bed here is a 13 watt that (falsely) claims to be 60 watt
>equivalent. I have an under-cupboard light in the kitchen that runs
>at, I think 0.2 watt. I leave it on as a night light. My sister had
>a night-light in her room when she was a child (early seventies) that
>was 0.003 watts. I suspect that electroluminescent panels burn less
>power now.

Probably. In any case, once you're out of the incandescent bulb
department, the ratio of wattage to lumens gets strange.

>>_____
>>*Well, there are the tiny power LEDs on the UPSs and the KVM
>>switch on Hal's desk. But those aren't much use unless I
>>*wanted* to go to Hal's desk in the dark, which I don't.
>

>I live in the city and have a window in the bathroom. If I sat down
>to go, I wouldn't need to turn a light on.

This is cool. I live in a basement flat and there are no windows
whatever in any of the interior rooms; and the power supply to
the bathroom died a while back (I need to make a list for the
landlord of what needs fixing). We've run a lamp on an extension
cord into the bathroom, but I don't want to turn an actual light
on and ruin my night vision for getting back to bed.

[David DeLaney]

ObOtherSF: "The shadow is mother / the shadow is death / the shadow falls
forever / on the children of darkness". [It was a rather dark series in other
respects as well...]

[jack...@bright.net]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>This is cool. I live in a basement flat and there are no windows
>whatever in any of the interior rooms; and the power supply to
>the bathroom died a while back (I need to make a list for the
>landlord of what needs fixing). We've run a lamp on an extension
>cord into the bathroom, but I don't want to turn an actual light
>on and ruin my night vision for getting back to bed.

Don't you learn anything from Science Fiction?!?
Shut one eye while the light is on, shut the other when it's off if
you think you'll need a light-adapted eye in turning on a light
again... or be using the laser to cut out more of the blood clot in
the brain!
From Asimov's novelization.

--
-Jack

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <6813g7pkn12h34ddn...@4ax.com>,

Ah. But my right eye doesn't work worth a damn, having had
something like a stroke along the optic nerve some fifteen-twenty
years ago. It's not completely blind; it gives enough (blurry)
input to give me a rudiment of depth perception. But it's no
good on its own. So that wouldn't work.

[Suzanne Blom]

On 1/1/2012 6:55 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>
> I have a USB hard drive that I sometimes use in the bedroom. I have
> to turn it off (or leave the LED disconnected when re-assembling it)
> because the light is bright enough to keep me awake.
>
> I live in the city and have a window in the bathroom. If I sat down
> to go, I wouldn't need to turn a light on.

I live in the city likewise, and I love coming home late at night and
getting ready for bed without turning any lights on. Everything looks
niftily different in the dim, and I feel virtuous and thrifty for not
using any power.

[Robert Carnegie]

And then you wake up and you're in someone else's house.

[Kip Williams]

I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.


Kip W
rasfw

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ELqMq.44307$qH4....@newsfe06.iad>,

Well, under all these varied conditions you need not only a
*little* bit of light and the opportunity to get adapted to it,
but decent eyes. Mine are not so very decent any more.

[Kip Williams]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<ELqMq.44307$qH4....@newsfe06.iad>,
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
>> nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.
>>
> Well, under all these varied conditions you need not only a
> *little* bit of light and the opportunity to get adapted to it,
> but decent eyes. Mine are not so very decent any more.

I don't know that I'd do it with my 2012 eyes. They weren't an issue in
the 1970s.


Kip W
rasfw

[Greg Goss]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
>nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.

I used to travel over mountain highways for many holidays to my
parent's place. I always found it convenient that the moon is mostly
full for the Easter trip.

[Kip Williams]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<ELqMq.44307$qH4....@newsfe06.iad>,
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
>> nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.
>>
> Well, under all these varied conditions you need not only a
> *little* bit of light and the opportunity to get adapted to it,
> but decent eyes. Mine are not so very decent any more.

[Kip Williams]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<ELqMq.44307$qH4....@newsfe06.iad>,
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
>> nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.
>>
> Well, under all these varied conditions you need not only a
> *little* bit of light and the opportunity to get adapted to it,
> but decent eyes. Mine are not so very decent any more.

[Kip Williams]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<ELqMq.44307$qH4....@newsfe06.iad>,
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I used to enjoy driving in the mountains without headlights on moonlit
>> nights. I could see much more than just the road ahead.
>>
> Well, under all these varied conditions you need not only a
> *little* bit of light and the opportunity to get adapted to it,
> but decent eyes. Mine are not so very decent any more.

[Kip Williams]

Kip Williams wrote:
[as my fun-loving system pretended repeatedly it couldn't send it]

> I don't know that I'd do it with my 2012 eyes. They weren't an issue in
> the 1970s.

I said it three times so you know it's true.


Kip W
Kip W
Kip W

[David DeLaney]

"Four, sir!"

Dave "<thtwoing!>Message ...for you..." DeLaney

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:50:28 -0500, Kip Williams
<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:8WuMq.47279$mJ.2...@newsfe10.iad> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

Do we get to snark now?

Brian

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>Yup. It has been said, and it is true of most of us, that we
>each have a million words of crap inside of us, and can't write
>well till we write those million words out.

I don't think that my millions of words of Usenet (and before that,
BBSs) count here, do they? Not a lot of characterization in short
arguments.

[Kip Williams]

Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:50:28 -0500, Kip Williams
> <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:8WuMq.47279$mJ.2...@newsfe10.iad> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:

>> I said it three times so you know it's true.
>
> Do we get to snark now?

You know the risks.


Kip W
rasfw

[Walter Bushell]

In article <18ezt8wenqlk8.i...@40tude.net>,

Careful that snark may be a boojum.

--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken

[Bill Snyder]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:14:59 -0500, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Not to mention the 2012 trembling fingers . . .

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <9mfv4l...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>Yup. It has been said, and it is true of most of us, that we
>>each have a million words of crap inside of us, and can't write
>>well till we write those million words out.
>
>I don't think that my millions of words of Usenet (and before that,
>BBSs) count here, do they? Not a lot of characterization in short
>arguments.

I don't know about Usenet. Fanfic definitely counts; that's how
I got rid of my million words.

[Kip Williams]

That's a lot of fingers! Try counting them again.


Kip W
rasfw

[David DeLaney]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Bill Snyder wrote:
>> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't know that I'd do it with my 2012 eyes. They weren't an issue in
>>> the 1970s.
>>
>> Not to mention the 2012 trembling fingers . . .
>
>That's a lot of fingers! Try counting them again.

Even in trinary, that's a lot of fingers.

Dave "to-morrow, we'll do fractions!" DeLaney

[Bill Snyder]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:20:26 -0500, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com>

Looks like a marked deficiency to me. He ought to have 5 times as
many fingers as eyes.

[Suzanne Blom]

_Damn, they built that wheelchair ramp fast_, I think.