clothing/fashion in SF?

[DouhetSukd]

I was recently at my favorite high-tech outdoor clothing manufacturer
factory outlet. These guys like to play around with new ideas that
are... a bit out there, to say kindly. For example they once made a
bag with some kinda NASA gel-padding for your back. Discontinued -
too difficult to manufacture. But overall, their stuff is top notch
and really lasts forever so I like shopping there.

This time I was looking at a blazer that was out of some kinda of
slick pearl gray goretex. From a distance, it looked alright. Still
wicked expensive, even though they had dropped their price by 75%. I
wasn't convinced, but I appreciated their idea of making a rainproof
dress vest.

Then I saw... the quite prominent zipper they had running in the
front, in addition to the buttons. The price drop and the fact that
it was discontinued instantly made sense.

This joins all the SF future clothing "innovations" like jumpsuits
(great for going to the loo) and togas (who wants to look a like a
fruity Roman?).

The usual "what would the world look like to someone from the 50s"
doesn't really apply to clothing, IMHO. We wear pretty much exactly
the same things as before, it's just that the type (not quality) of
clothing is not a reliable socio-economic indicator anymore. Lots of
people wear what would be working-class clothes (jeans) and many
people who are well-off avoid suits like the plague. But someone from
the 50s would recognize pretty much everything, would they not? Aside
from bikini shrinkage.

So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
love one of those.

p.s. Gotta say however that guys in Mad Men are natty dressers.

[A.G.McDowell]

On 17/11/2011 05:45, DouhetSukd wrote:
(trimmed)

>
> The usual "what would the world look like to someone from the 50s"
> doesn't really apply to clothing, IMHO. We wear pretty much exactly
> the same things as before, it's just that the type (not quality) of
> clothing is not a reliable socio-economic indicator anymore. Lots of
> people wear what would be working-class clothes (jeans) and many
> people who are well-off avoid suits like the plague. But someone from
> the 50s would recognize pretty much everything, would they not? Aside
> from bikini shrinkage.
>
> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
> do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
> love one of those.
>
> p.s. Gotta say however that guys in Mad Men are natty dressers.

In the Vorkosiverse, the contrast between Beta Colony and Barrayar is
reflected in the contrast between the Betan Sarong and the typical
Barrayarran uniform derivative - and typically a cavalry uniform at
that, so boots. I think the Dendarii mercenaries go for flameproof
T-shirts and trousers.

Since around the 80s I think we've seen an increase in clothing
originally claimed to be specific to some variety of leisure - people
wearing sportsware such as track suits or outdoor gear even when not
engaged in those pursuits. What some people wear now as standard outdoor
coats is probably better bad weather gear than money could buy in the 70s.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,

I was always hoping for Leiber's "off the bosom" dresses to come into style,
but alas not as yet. I would be very surprised if there's not a good deal
of Vance about clothes, but aside from "Moon Moth", I'm blanking on specifics
now.

Of course the goofiest current stuff (ie: pants down around knees, those
animal-head hats) didn't get predicted as far as I know.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Ahasuerus]

On Nov 17, 12:45 am, DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent?  Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits.

Barrington J. Bayley's _The Garments of Caean_ -- http://www.oivas.com/bjb/caean.html
-- was *the* SF novel to end all SF novels about clothing.

And remember, there is only one Prossim. Accept no substitutes!

[Joel Olson]

"DouhetSukd" <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

One of Wells' books predicted we'll all be wearing Levis (equivalent).

-----------------------------
His most difficult decision was an ear perfume to match the fragrance of his
genitals. Even when one went out among the masses in search of atomo-units, one
had to be ready to make foil with the female sex. - Donald Kingsbury
-----------------------------

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Nov 17, 12:45 am, DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent?  Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits.  What
> do people wear?  Does it make any sense?  The closest I come to think
> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer.  I'd
> love one of those.

Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire deals with fashions of the future quite a
bit

[James Nicoll]

In article <c2a00369-6fba-4474...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
art...@yahoo.com <art...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Nov 17, 12:45=A0am, DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are

>> prominent? =A0Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. =A0What
>> do people wear? =A0Does it make any sense? =A0The closest I come to think
>> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. =A0I'd

>> love one of those.
>
>Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire deals with fashions of the future quite a
>bit

Aside from the lack of holsters, the cover of THE DOPPLEGANGER
GAMBIT is true to the descriptions in the book:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/k/lee-killough/doppelganger-gambit.htm
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:34:48 -0600, "Joel Olson" <joel....@cox.net>
wrote:

>
>One of Wells' books predicted we'll all be wearing Levis (equivalent).

I've seen more predictions of people in fancy clothing or high tech
clothing.

But I don't know of anybody who predicted that a high school of
similar "class" students would have as much variety as we are seeing
now. Nor workplaces with some people wearing suits and others
wearing cut off jeans.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[zzznot]

"DouhetSukd" <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent?

Stand On Zanzibar has a lot of comments on styles.

And hey you've got your color-coded t-shirts in Star Trek.

Larry Niven often talks more about hair and skin styles.

Comic-book superheroes tend to wear leotards, bodysuits.

I suppose a lot of this would go better with profuse illustration,
which tends not to be part of sf writing, that graphic novel deal
never having quite caught on. Maybe in a few more years powerful
animation may come to the home PC and your average sf writer may have
greatly increased access to still and animated visuals.

J.

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 10:50 am, "zzznot" <zzz...@invalid.net> wrote:
> "DouhetSukd" <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Well Star Trek got it all wrong, we will still need and use pockets
and fasteners and always will. Red shirts are not unlucky or suicidal
but I doubt we will test that. and unfortunately female uniform are
not getting skimpier miniskirts and gogo boots. Also shirt material
is getting tougher and less able to rip like a captains uniform.

It is fortunate we don't wear the spandex leotards of superheroes
because it assumes we will all have heroic proportion and hardened
bodies. Instead we are getting more obese Although we have seen
some developments in female bra size
Personally I would like to see color and pattern changing clothing,
something like Rorshachs mask.
The melding of hi tech with jewelry. The iPhone Watch, bluetooth
smartphone earrings. Superman x-ray and telescopic vision glasses.

[Raymond Daley]

"DouhetSukd" <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are prominent?

Puppet Masters.
The fashion goes from bared backs to completely nude in less than 20
chapters.

[David DeLaney]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>art...@yahoo.com <art...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Nov 17, 12:45=A0am, DouhetSukd <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>>> prominent? =A0Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. =A0What
>>> do people wear? =A0Does it make any sense? =A0The closest I come to think
>>> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. =A0I'd
>>> love one of those.
>>
>>Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire deals with fashions of the future quite a bit
>
>Aside from the lack of holsters, the cover of THE DOPPLEGANGER
>GAMBIT is true to the descriptions in the book:
>
>http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/k/lee-killough/doppelganger-gambit.htm

Her other books in the series go into clothing description a bit as well.
Though I have to say that Douglas' Argent Las Vegas series outdoes that one
by a bit.

So possibly one should look in the paranormal romance subsection for the
greatest chance of fashion blathering?

Dave "of course, Douhet may have meant specifically science fiction?" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <e749de9b-5ea8-4c49...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>It is fortunate we don't wear the spandex leotards of superheroes
>because it assumes we will all have heroic proportion and hardened
>bodies. Instead we are getting more obese Although we have seen
>some developments in female bra size
>Personally I would like to see color and pattern changing clothing,
>something like Rorshachs mask.
>The melding of hi tech with jewelry. The iPhone Watch, bluetooth
>smartphone earrings. Superman x-ray and telescopic vision glasses.

OK, there is this webcomic that I am eagerly following. It's
called _Quantum Vibe_ and I'll post some links below. In this
universe (about 500 years from now) there is a device called an
"anysuit." It's a bodystocking that projects holograms of
the wearer's clothing choices, which one has to download.
Downloads, apparently, are fairly cheap; the anysuit itself is
expensive but *ought not* to break down very often.

Here's what happens when it does:

http://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=11

and the next page, where Our Heroine has to go buy a new one with
her few remaining funds.

Here's what else it can do:

http://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=207

There appears to be a similar technology that enables one to
change one's facial appearance. Here, a secret agent named Graves
is changing his appearance from an Obama-lookalike, which he used
to meet with one client, to a Bush-jr.-lookalike, which he's going
to use to meet with ANOTHER client who wants the same material.
Neither client knows about the other.

And here he is with his assistant, wearing yet a THIRD face. Can
anybody figure out who he's being now? Clinton maybe?

http://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=219

Yes, a certain amount of present-day political satire creeps into
this strip, which you will observe if you read it.

Here's the link to the first strip, which I recommend to all
(because the plot has many twists):

http://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=1

And here's the generic link ("today"):

http://www.quantumvibe.com/

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jmcxq.21846$aq.1...@newsfe06.ams2>,

IIRC people were able to get away with bikinis and cache-de-sexe.
Any bit of fabric too small to conceal a slug. Though watch out
for those oversized handbags.

[Jerry Brown]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:00:31 -0800 (PST), tphile <tph...@cableone.net>
wrote:

IIRC the material Rorshach's mask was made of was intended for
clothing, which he got hold of in his job as a cotter in dress
faktory.

His daytime job, that is, with apologies to Leo Rosten.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 1:10 pm, Jerry Brown

Yes the backstory is that its two layers of cloth with something in
between IIRC. Early designs was him wearing a full body costume. but
eventually became just the mask with trencoat and hat. which is a
better look.
There was a lot of thought put into each costume. My favorite would
be Owlman with the body armor and gadgets that a Batman would
appreciate. Especially if Archie came with it.

[Greg Goss]

"Joel Olson" <joel....@cox.net> wrote:

>"DouhetSukd" <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>> prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
>> do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
>> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
>> love one of those.
>

>One of Wells' books predicted we'll all be wearing Levis (equivalent).

Star Trek V asked Levi's what leisure wear might look like in the 24th
century. Levi's said that 501s were over a century old already; why
would they change? The suggestion was jeans and a message T-shirt. I
forget what the boots/shoes were like. Kirk ended up in a "Go climb a
rock!" T-shirt and 501 jeans.
--
"Recessions catch what the auditors miss." (Galbraith)

[Elaine T]

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:45:51 -0800 (PST), DouhetSukd
<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
>do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
>of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
>love one of those.

CJC's FORGE OF HEAVEN features Stylists, people who are all about
fashion. I don't remember much about clothing specifically, a lot
about body mods and projections and such like. The protaganist's
sister is one, and another character has ambitions to be one. The
protaganist fields complaints from sis about his boring presentation.
Sis and her friends are useful in the climax of the story.


--
Elaine T.
Ela...@kethompson.org

[Dr. Rufo]

DouhetSukd wrote:

< snip >

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
> do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
> love one of those.

S. M. Stirling's 2nd Emberverse Series has the upper classes in various
parts of the North American continent wearing the style(s) previously
worn in their areas before the Time of the Change.

In one location they wear corduroy jackets with leather patches on the
elbows to show their descent from faculty members of a local university.
In another the elite wear stylized farmers' overalls.

In yet another The Powers That Be wear SCA-influenced pseudo-14th or
15th Century styles including armor, tights and the cote-hardie,
surcoats edged with fur, belts, pointed shoes and wide-sleeved
houppelandes.

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 2:01 pm, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> "Joel Olson" <joel.ol...@cox.net> wrote:
> >"DouhetSukd" <douhets...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Yeah well Levi's has a commercial interest to say that. including
product placement.
but denim is made from the earth plant cotton. The Federation has the
benefit of the plants, fabrics and manufacture of all kinds of alien
planets, life and ecologies. What is Vulcan fabric made from?
Klingon etc.as well as advanced synthetic materials. I am sure the
Vulcan fabric makers and tailors can come up with something more
logical. including non rip shirts for captains.
In ST-TOS the boots were basic black leather.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <7e29f164-3cd7-4c39...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

I thought there was something about it being a dress of the fabric worn
by Kitty Genovese when she was stabbed to death.

[Robert Bannister]

On 17/11/11 10:57 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article<c2a00369-6fba-4474...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
> art...@yahoo.com<art...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 17, 12:45=A0am, DouhetSukd<douhets...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>>> prominent? =A0Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. =A0What
>>> do people wear? =A0Does it make any sense? =A0The closest I come to think
>>> of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. =A0I'd
>>> love one of those.
>>
>> Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire deals with fashions of the future quite a
>> bit
>
> Aside from the lack of holsters, the cover of THE DOPPLEGANGER
> GAMBIT is true to the descriptions in the book:
>
> http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/k/lee-killough/doppelganger-gambit.htm

The woman's clothes would not be out of place in the high street today.
The man's trackie is a bit garish, but some guys wear stuff like that.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

A number of writers (of course I can't think of an example) have come up
with clothing that shows continuously changing visual displays cunningly
hiding the private parts. I understand material that can replace a
normal LCD screen is already available, so it's not that far-fetched.


--
Robert Bannister

[David Goldfarb]

In article <7e29f164-3cd7-4c39...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>On Nov 17, 1:10 pm, Jerry Brown
><je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
>> IIRC the material Rorshach's mask was made of was intended for
>> clothing, which he got hold of in his job as a cotter in dress
>> faktory.
>

>Yes the backstory is that its two layers of cloth with something in
>between IIRC.

It was two layers of transparent plastic, with two immiscible liquids
in between. I've wondered for a long time how he could see through it,
or breathe.

(The movie mask was just a single layer of thin white cotton, with the
patterns put on by computer in post-production, IIRC.)

--
David Goldfarb |"Well, my days of not taking you seriously
goldf...@gmail.com | are certainly coming to a middle."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- _Firefly_

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 12:38 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <e749de9b-5ea8-4c49-9d7b-856df9e60...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

Doc Savage utility vest has made a big comeback with soldiers and
police. A bulletproof vest with many pockets filled with usefull
gadgets and tools for the job. The kevlar vests have velcro and snaps
and hooks that lets the person specialize what they carry. Including
night vision goggles, protective head gear. and so on.
but this topic is not complete until we mention Girl Genius and
Steampunk fashions. Which is becoming more popular.
I can't say much about wearing corsets but they do look good on women
wearing them. and men wearing "nice hats", inverness coats or bogart
trenchcoats. and of course walking sticks and canes are pretty cool
especially if they include hidden sparky gadgets.
However I gotta say those Tik-Tok Trousers we see in the latest GG
page are just to silly and simply Wrong. ;-)

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 4:31 pm, goldf...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) wrote:
> In article <7e29f164-3cd7-4c39-a537-9bdf0ab34...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

>
> tphile  <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> >On Nov 17, 1:10 pm, Jerry Brown
> ><je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
> >> IIRC the material Rorshach's mask was made of was intended for
> >> clothing, which he got hold of in his job as a cotter in dress
> >> faktory.
>
> >Yes the backstory is that its two layers of cloth with something in
> >between IIRC.
>
> It was two layers of transparent plastic, with two immiscible liquids
> in between.  I've wondered for a long time how he could see through it,
> or breathe.
>
> (The movie mask was just a single layer of thin white cotton, with the
> patterns put on by computer in post-production, IIRC.)
>
> --
>    David Goldfarb          |"Well, my days of not taking you seriously

> goldfar...@gmail.com       | are certainly coming to a middle."
> goldf...@ocf.berkeley.edu  |         -- _Firefly_

Yes and also how they can hear. That is questions about most all
superhero costumes and masks. Usually answered by "comic science" and
marvels unstable molecules.
and can a domino mask or even a complete hood protect a secret
identity? If I know someone well, no matter what costume they wear I
can recognize them from mannerisms, height, gender, voice.
For Rorshachs mask, I figured there where tiny perforations for eyes
and breathing that didn't interfere with the effect.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <24a815be-7b7c-40b0...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

Called out in the recent Green Lantern movie. "I've seen you naked! Did
you think hiding your eyes was going to fool me?"

[Howard Brazee]

I suppose the movie _The Man In The White Suit_ qualifies as SF.

[Jerry Brown]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:43:33 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>On 18/11/11 12:50 AM, zzznot wrote:
>> "DouhetSukd"<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>>> prominent?
>>
>> Stand On Zanzibar has a lot of comments on styles.
>>
>> And hey you've got your color-coded t-shirts in Star Trek.
>>
>> Larry Niven often talks more about hair and skin styles.
>>
>> Comic-book superheroes tend to wear leotards, bodysuits.
>>
>> I suppose a lot of this would go better with profuse illustration,
>> which tends not to be part of sf writing, that graphic novel deal
>> never having quite caught on. Maybe in a few more years powerful
>> animation may come to the home PC and your average sf writer may have
>> greatly increased access to still and animated visuals.
>
>A number of writers (of course I can't think of an example)

I think there was a such a costume during a party in Bob Shaw's One
Million Tomorrows.

>have come up
>with clothing that shows continuously changing visual displays cunningly
>hiding the private parts. I understand material that can replace a
>normal LCD screen is already available, so it's not that far-fetched.

--

[tphile]

On Nov 17, 5:50 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> In article <24a815be-7b7c-40b0-84c9-520f56878...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

true but that does not work so well in the reverse. When you see a
superheroine naked who is gonna be looking at her eyes? or any female
for that matter. The gorgon Medusa doesn't count. or Medusa of the
Inhumans either. just look at her hair. Though I never understood why
Marvels The Inhumans wore masks anyway? They didn't have secret
identities or need to hide their faces.

[David Johnston]

On 11/16/2011 10:45 PM, DouhetSukd wrote:

> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
> prominent?

Asimov came up with new clothing closure technology that used magnetism
or something to hold the seams closed.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <7e311209-dc72-456d...@h5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,

tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>Doc Savage utility vest has made a big comeback with soldiers and
>police. A bulletproof vest with many pockets filled with usefull
>gadgets and tools for the job.

Not to mention a certain amount of protective mass. There's a
Bill Mauldin cartoon in which a soldier is writing a letter:
"Dear, dear Miss Mitchell, you probably will be surprised to get
this letter, but I was carrying a copy of your book _Gone With
the Wind_ in my front pocket, and ...." and in the foreground
lies a copy of _GWTW_ with a bullet hole halfway through it. I
understand the Zippo company, which guarantees free repair for
its lighters for life, used to get them back from the front with
dents in them....

The kevlar vests have velcro and snaps
>and hooks that lets the person specialize what they carry. Including
>night vision goggles, protective head gear. and so on.
>but this topic is not complete until we mention Girl Genius and
>Steampunk fashions. Which is becoming more popular.
>I can't say much about wearing corsets but they do look good on women
>wearing them.

Men have worn them too from time to time. In the Regency period,
for example, both the Prince and his sometime friend Beau Brummel
wore them.

and men wearing "nice hats", inverness coats or bogart
>trenchcoats. and of course walking sticks and canes are pretty cool
>especially if they include hidden sparky gadgets.

>However I gotta say those Tik-Tok Trousers we see in the latest GG
>page are just to silly and simply Wrong. ;-)

What do you expect from mad scientists? (I wish I knew whose
troops those guys are. Hassenpfeffer's maybe?)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <fa867069-9ce9-4878...@cc2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>.....When you see a

>superheroine naked who is gonna be looking at her eyes?

Another female.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ja3tim$e0l$1...@dont-email.me>, Dr. Rufo <bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>In yet another The Powers That Be wear SCA-influenced pseudo-14th or
>15th Century styles including armor, tights and the cote-hardie,

With gates of hell, probably.

(For non-historians/non-SCAdians, they were widely cut armholes
that allowed a clear view of the very tight-fitting undergown
and, by implication, of the body inside it.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:09:59 +0000, Jerry Brown wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:43:33 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>On 18/11/11 12:50 AM, zzznot wrote:
>>> "DouhetSukd"<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:e630b3c2-4b81-4107-b857-
ec8bba...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>
>>>> So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>>>> prominent?
>>>
>>> Stand On Zanzibar has a lot of comments on styles.
>>>
>>> And hey you've got your color-coded t-shirts in Star Trek.
>>>
>>> Larry Niven often talks more about hair and skin styles.
>>>
>>> Comic-book superheroes tend to wear leotards, bodysuits.
>>>
>>> I suppose a lot of this would go better with profuse illustration,
>>> which tends not to be part of sf writing, that graphic novel deal
>>> never having quite caught on. Maybe in a few more years powerful
>>> animation may come to the home PC and your average sf writer may have
>>> greatly increased access to still and animated visuals.
>>
>>A number of writers (of course I can't think of an example)
>
> I think there was a such a costume during a party in Bob Shaw's One
> Million Tomorrows.
>
>>have come up
>>with clothing that shows continuously changing visual displays cunningly
>>hiding the private parts. I understand material that can replace a
>>normal LCD screen is already available, so it's not that far-fetched.

If such a costume becomes available, it won't take long for some teenage
male hacker to figure out how to make other people's clothes turn
transparent on demand.

--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

[Andrew Plotkin]

Here, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> In article <7e29f164-3cd7-4c39...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:

> >On Nov 17, 1:10?pm, Jerry Brown

> ><je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
> >> IIRC the material Rorshach's mask was made of was intended for
> >> clothing, which he got hold of in his job as a cotter in dress
> >> faktory.
> >
> >Yes the backstory is that its two layers of cloth with something in
> >between IIRC.
>
> It was two layers of transparent plastic, with two immiscible liquids
> in between. I've wondered for a long time how he could see through it,
> or breathe.

Or keep it symmetrical. (Breathing problems, bah.)

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

[Andrew Plotkin]

Here, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
> If such a costume becomes available, it won't take long for some teenage
> male hacker to figure out how to make other people's clothes turn
> transparent on demand.

Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a form
of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?

(I don't know whether it was obvious to anybody but me. Maybe
everybody knows this idea and I'm just late talking about it.)

[Juho Julkunen]

>
> In article <24a815be-7b7c-40b0...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:

> >Yes and also how they can hear. That is questions about most all
> >superhero costumes and masks. Usually answered by "comic science" and
> >marvels unstable molecules.
> >and can a domino mask or even a complete hood protect a secret
> >identity? If I know someone well, no matter what costume they wear I
> >can recognize them from mannerisms, height, gender, voice.

I always figured Spider-Man had one of the most convincing disguises
out there (though it's hard to beat Sleepwalker). A full mask covering
his face and conceivably muffling his voice, completely different
manner with wise-cracking, hard to tell gait or other mannerisms with
him usually hanging from a wall or ceiling.

And then he sells exclusive pictures of himself under his name.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Kip Williams]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> I thought there was something about it being a dress of the fabric worn
> by Kitty Genovese when she was stabbed to death.

I wrote a reply to this comment, and I can't find it now. Strangely odd,
particularly as another newsgroup I'm in is all het up over disappearing
posts and is blaming somebody in the group for cancelling messages.

Did anybody else see my response? Did I somehow send it to
rec.places.limbo?

I recounted the story's specific mention that Rorschach related it as a
custom job for a patron who never showed up to claim it, and a week or a
month later he read of Kitty Genovese's murder and thought that was the
name of the party who'd ordered the dress. (He goes so far as to
semi-repeat himself: "Certain that was the name." The insistence
actually makes it seem less certain, to me, and it's an unusual remark
from the normally unshakeable Rorschach.)

And in some comment that I can't find, which might have been the same
one, I said that Rorschach's mutant power was keeping the two sides of
his mask symmetrical.

What I didn't say yet is that Rorschach's speech and certainty always
put me in mind of Herbie Popnecker, and I'd love to see someone do a
version of WATCHMEN using ACG characters. ("This little fat nothing is
the terror of the underworld!") Magicman would be Doc Manhattan. Nemesis
would be Nite Owl. After that it gets a little harder to fill in.
Murgatroyd Minch as the Comedian? Kitchy Witch as Silk Spectre?


Kip W

[Kip Williams]

Some years back, a friend brought over some tapes of the Japanese
Spider-Man TV show. It wasn't in English, so we were making up our own
sound track much of the time. The line I liked best was "Have you ever
noticed that we never see Spider-Man's giant robot together with Peter
Parker's giant robot?"


Kip W
rasfw

[Wayne Throop]

: Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com>
: Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a form

: of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
: inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
: explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?

I assume you mean Violet's outfit. Yes, very obvious possibility,
but seems to me it isn't inevitable, if Violet simply chooses not
to do the act that triggers it. Seems to be under conscious control.
Unless you mean her earlier shyness syndrome implied she'd do it by reflex.
But by the end of the movie, that'd far less of a concern.

[Wayne Throop]

: djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
: Men have worn them too from time to time. In the Regency period, for

: example, both the Prince and his sometime friend Beau Brummel wore them.

Eh. It's still rock and roll to me.

How about a pair of pink sidewinders
And a bright orange pair of pants?
--- Billy Joel

[Andrew Plotkin]

Here, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
> > I thought there was something about it being a dress of the fabric worn
> > by Kitty Genovese when she was stabbed to death.
>
> I wrote a reply to this comment, and I can't find it now. Strangely odd,
> particularly as another newsgroup I'm in is all het up over disappearing
> posts and is blaming somebody in the group for cancelling messages.
>
> Did anybody else see my response? Did I somehow send it to
> rec.places.limbo?

I see no earlier posts from you in this thread.

[Kip Williams]

Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Here, Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ted Nolan<tednolan> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought there was something about it being a dress of the fabric worn
>>> by Kitty Genovese when she was stabbed to death.
>>
>> I wrote a reply to this comment, and I can't find it now. Strangely odd,
>> particularly as another newsgroup I'm in is all het up over disappearing
>> posts and is blaming somebody in the group for cancelling messages.
>>
>> Did anybody else see my response? Did I somehow send it to
>> rec.places.limbo?
>
> I see no earlier posts from you in this thread.

That's what I thought, because I said something similar to what you just
said, and I seriously doubt you'd have done that if my post had ever
appeared.

That's when I went back and tried, unsuccessfully, to find a post I
clearly remembered writing and posting. By cracky.

(I guess this is where I say I'm using the most recent version of
SeaMonkey on the latest MacOS on a MacBook Pro that's about a month old.)


Kip W
rasfw

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <g_ixq.43333$Ra6....@newsfe07.iad>,

No, it didn't show up that I saw, and since I posed the question, I was
looking for an answer..

As to the last, I think the Harvey characters might be more interesting.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <ja4deq$f7v$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>
>> If such a costume becomes available, it won't take long for some teenage
>> male hacker to figure out how to make other people's clothes turn
>> transparent on demand.
>
>Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a form
>of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
>inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
>explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?
>
>(I don't know whether it was obvious to anybody but me. Maybe
>everybody knows this idea and I'm just late talking about it.)
>
>--Z
>

Are you talking "No Capes!" wardrobe malfunction or "Janet Jackson"
wardrobe malfunction?

[Andrew Plotkin]

Here, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> >
> > I see no earlier posts from you in this thread.
>
> That's what I thought, because I said something similar to what you just
> said, and I seriously doubt you'd have done that if my post had ever
> appeared.

You give me too much credit; I've been skipping most of RASFW for
months, and I didn't catch up on this thread when I entered it. (I did
go back and check before answering your question.)

> That's when I went back and tried, unsuccessfully, to find a post I
> clearly remembered writing and posting. By cracky.
>
> (I guess this is where I say I'm using the most recent version of
> SeaMonkey on the latest MacOS on a MacBook Pro that's about a month old.)

I'm using tin on panix.com.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

I don't think Violet's uniform had any invisibility function -- I think
that was all Violet.

[Kip Williams]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> As to the last, I think the Harvey characters might be more interesting.

Without Herbie Popnecker as the Fat Fury in the position of Rorschach,
though, the whole thing loses its entire reason for existence except as
a fill-in-the-blanks exercise.


Kip W

[Andrew Plotkin]

Ah, well, now that people are discussing it --

When whatsername Brad Bird is handing out Incredibles family costumes,
Violet turns her hand invisible and touches her costume (which is
hanging on the rack). The whole costume disappears as soon as she
touches it. She is delighted. (Up until this point we have never seen
Violet turn her clothes invisible; only her body.)

This is a nice bit of filmmaking -- no infodumping, no dialogue, the
audience gets the point immediately and the story moves on.

The problem comes if she turns her hand invisible *while wearing the
costume*. Or her foot, or her elbow. Why would she do that? Possibly
just from habit; it's clearly a move she's comfortable with.

(I can't remember if the earlier setup scene, where she turns her head
invisible while standing behind a bush, was *just her head* or her
entire body excepting clothes. If I ever see the movie again, I'll pay
attention.)

[Wayne Throop]

:: I don't think Violet's uniform had any invisibility function -- I

:: think that was all Violet.

Edna Mode sez:
Your daughter's suit was tricky, but I finally created a sturdy
material that can disappear completely as she does.

And then the suit is shown turning invisible when touched by a pair of
sparking spheres, no Violet present.

And, as Andrew notes:

: Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com>
: Violet turns her hand invisible and touches her costume (which is

: hanging on the rack). The whole costume disappears as soon as she
: touches it.

And similarly, in Edna's lab, the whole costume faded out even when the
simulated invisibility mojo seemed unevenly distributed. So. Touch the
suit anywhere with an invisible body part, the whole suit fades out.

( And my memory sez she was holding the suit up in her other hand.
Holding the suit with her still-visible right hand, touching it with
her invisible left. Specifically the forefinger of her left hand
was wgat sge was touching the suit with before she faded it out.
My memory could be faulty. But what's clear is that the suit is
*very* sensitive to even the *smallest* touch of any invisible
part of Violet touching it, and it reacts by entirely fading out. )

I suspect that turning partly invisible wasn't really needed, but they
wanted to show her surprised/delighted expression as the suit turned
invisible, and to do that, they had to have her hand be invisible,
and her face remain visible. But regardless of *why* they did it,
if Violet turns any part of her body which contacts the suit invisible,
poof, instant preternaturally transparent outfit.

The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
regardless of the earlier scene.

: (I can't remember if the earlier setup scene, where she turns her head

: invisible while standing behind a bush, was *just her head* or her
: entire body excepting clothes. If I ever see the movie again, I'll
: pay attention.)

Hm. Yeah, I guess I'm not *totally* sure either, but my memory
tells me her hand was still touching the wall. I could be misremembering.

[Wayne Throop]

:: Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a

:: form of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
:: inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
:: explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?

: t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
: Are you talking "No Capes!" wardrobe malfunction or "Janet Jackson"
: wardrobe malfunction?

Can't be the "no capes!". That happened several times in flashback,
and once in present time.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <13215...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:

Well, I'll be getting the Blu-Ray for Christmas, I think, so time to watch
again. (You'd think after having seen it more than 20 times at the theater
I'd recall better..)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <13215...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:

Yeah, I meant "no capes!" as a type of malfunction, ie "fatal".

[tphile]

There is another weakness to the uniforms. They serve as protective
armor against bullets, flames and lightning. but the head is left
totally unprotected. no hood or anything. One ricochet or a flame/
lightning blast near the head and they are history, That domino mask
isn't any help.

[David Johnston]

On 11/17/2011 11:52 PM, tphile wrote:
> On Nov 17, 11:39 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>> :: Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a
>> :: form of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
>> :: inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
>> :: explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?
>>
>> : t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan<tednolan>)
>> : Are you talking "No Capes!" wardrobe malfunction or "Janet Jackson"
>> : wardrobe malfunction?
>>
>> Can't be the "no capes!". That happened several times in flashback,
>> and once in present time.
>
> There is another weakness to the uniforms. They serve as protective
> armor against bullets, flames and lightning.

I don't think they really do. They're just resistant to abuse.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <ja50fn$b3d$1...@dont-email.me>,

I think Jack-Jack's is demonstrated as especially protective, but it's
not clear the others are. After all, damage to Mr. I's original uniform is
a plot driver.

[JRStern]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:43:33 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>A number of writers (of course I can't think of an example) have come up

>with clothing that shows continuously changing visual displays cunningly
>hiding the private parts. I understand material that can replace a
>normal LCD screen is already available, so it's not that far-fetched.

Lupus Yonderboy in Neuromancer has a video/camoflage suit in a walk-on
role.

J.

[JRStern]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:50:27 -0800, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
wrote:

but that's functional, not fashion.

J.

[Wayne Throop]

::: There is another weakness to the uniforms. They serve as protective
::: armor against bullets, flames and lightning. but the head is left
::: totally unprotected.

:: I don't think they really do. They're just resistant to abuse.

: t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)

: I think Jack-Jack's is demonstrated as especially protective, but it's

: not clear the others are. After all, damage to Mr. I's original
: uniform is a plot driver.

There are a few clues. "This is Dynamesh, outmoded..." may indicate that
the new suits may be... sturdier. Also, Elastigirl wrapped herself
round her children, tucked her head and hands inside the sphere... and
survived an explosion with shrapnel. Her elasticity may have helped,
but no punctures seems to indicate... well... sturdiness.

So, yes. Much like flak jackets and "bulletproof" (ie, actually just
bullet resistant) vests, the head and hands are left to fend for
themselves. This doesn't seem like a "weakness" so much as a design
compromise, just as in the vests.

And of course that's why they put the colorful logo (aka, target)
on the chest; in hopes of drawing fire away from more vulnerable areas.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <13216...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>::: There is another weakness to the uniforms. They serve as protective
>::: armor against bullets, flames and lightning. but the head is left
>::: totally unprotected.
>
>:: I don't think they really do. They're just resistant to abuse.
>
>: t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
>: I think Jack-Jack's is demonstrated as especially protective, but it's
>: not clear the others are. After all, damage to Mr. I's original
>: uniform is a plot driver.
>
>There are a few clues. "This is Dynamesh, outmoded..." may indicate that
>the new suits may be... sturdier. Also, Elastigirl wrapped herself
>round her children, tucked her head and hands inside the sphere... and
>survived an explosion with shrapnel. Her elasticity may have helped,
>but no punctures seems to indicate... well... sturdiness.

True. I guess I really need to pay more attention to the uniform scenes
next time.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:04:04 -0800 (PST), tphile
<tph...@cableone.net> wrote in
<news:a224edd8-c33d-407f...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> What is Vulcan fabric made from? [...]

Vulcanite, of course.

Brian

[Derek Lyons]

thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

>: Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com>
>: Speaking of which, the movie _The Incredibles_ strongly implied a form
>: of wardrobe malfunction which was possible -- in fact, almost
>: inevitable -- but it didn't happen in the movie, nor was the idea
>: explicitly commented on. Can anyone guess what I'm thinking of?
>
>I assume you mean Violet's outfit.

Elastgirls - which had to be specially made so she didn't outstretch
it.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

[Kip Williams]

Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:04:04 -0800 (PST), tphile
> <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in
> <news:a224edd8-c33d-407f...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>

>> What is Vulcan fabric made from? [...]
>
> Vulcanite, of course.

Or vulcanized rubber?


Kip W

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 01:17:14 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>>.....When you see a
>>superheroine naked who is gonna be looking at her eyes?
>
>Another female.

Some people have eyes that just draw us.

But I've seen *lots* of women who look at other women's figures and
clothing and even shoes. It is kind of like evaluating the
competition.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

>The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
>the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
>scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
>And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
>invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
>regardless of the earlier scene.

If her supersuit turned invisible when she turned invisible, there
could be a set of underwear walking about visibly.

There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
walking away and sagging into her natural figure.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
> wrote:
>
>> The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>> turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>> If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
>> the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
>> scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
>> And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
>> invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
>> regardless of the earlier scene.
>
> If her supersuit turned invisible when she turned invisible, there
> could be a set of underwear walking about visibly.

This is comic-book logic. We don't really want to contemplate the idea
that Violet has to go commando in order to get the benefit of her
super-suit.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[tphile]

On Nov 18, 8:33 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>

> > On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)

Thanks for that, now we can't stop thinking of Violet and Helen going
commando. and we are all going to hell for it.
besides their uniform IS their underwear. They wear it under their
street clothes right? Superman has been wearing his briefs on the
outside for decades.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 11/18/11 10:06 AM, tphile wrote:
> On Nov 18, 8:33 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>>> turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>>>> If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
>>>> the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
>>>> scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
>>>> And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
>>>> invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
>>>> regardless of the earlier scene.
>>
>>> If her supersuit turned invisible when she turned invisible, there
>>> could be a set of underwear walking about visibly.
>>
>> This is comic-book logic. We don't really want to contemplate the idea
>> that Violet has to go commando in order to get the benefit of her
>> super-suit.

> Thanks for that, now we can't stop thinking of Violet and Helen going
> commando. and we are all going to hell for it.

My work here is done!

[James Silverton]

"Mesh armor" is invoked by several writers but the head and face are
usually vulnerable to knives.

--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm *not* not.jim....@verizon.net

[Kip Williams]

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 01:17:14 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
>>> .....When you see a
>>> superheroine naked who is gonna be looking at her eyes?
>>
>> Another female.
>
> Some people have eyes that just draw us.
>
> But I've seen *lots* of women who look at other women's figures and
> clothing and even shoes. It is kind of like evaluating the
> competition.

And some look for another reason.


Kip W

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <s4qcc7l836usjhfr4...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 01:17:14 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>.....When you see a
>>>superheroine naked who is gonna be looking at her eyes?
>>
>>Another female.
>
>Some people have eyes that just draw us.
>
>But I've seen *lots* of women who look at other women's figures and
>clothing and even shoes. It is kind of like evaluating the
>competition.

Yes, but mostly at the clothes. And the other woman's figure is
evaluated, if at all, as to whether it will accommodate stylish
clothing.

In other words, women look at other women with envy if they are
skinny, whereas men look at women if they are *not* skinny. The
latter is generations-old programming, whereas the former is
cultural.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ja5qbk$s15$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>> turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.

I've been skipping over these posts because I have no idea what
they refer to. Would somebody just tell me what book/film/series
is being discussed, so I can go back to skipping over them?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 11/18/11 12:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<ja5qbk$s15$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>>> turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>
> I've been skipping over these posts because I have no idea what
> they refer to. Would somebody just tell me what book/film/series
> is being discussed, so I can go back to skipping over them?
>

The Incredibles.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ja64fl$25f$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 11/18/11 12:09 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article<ja5qbk$s15$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/18/11 9:22 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>>>> turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>>
>> I've been skipping over these posts because I have no idea what
>> they refer to. Would somebody just tell me what book/film/series
>> is being discussed, so I can go back to skipping over them?
>>
>
> The Incredibles.

Oh. The Pixar film?

Thanks. I actually saw that, but clearly innumerable details
have slipped from my mind.

[David DeLaney]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in

>>> What is Vulcan fabric made from? [...]
>>
>> Vulcanite, of course.
>
>Or vulcanized rubber?

So, what material is Earthite? Or Terranium?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Kip Williams]

David DeLaney wrote:
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>> tphile<tph...@cableone.net> wrote in
>>>> What is Vulcan fabric made from? [...]
>>>
>>> Vulcanite, of course.
>>
>> Or vulcanized rubber?
>
> So, what material is Earthite? Or Terranium?

Imaginarily speaking, it's made up of the remains of Planet Earth, which
blew up after baby Lois Lane was flung to freedom in a rocket that
brought her to another planet where she became THE SUPER-WOMAN OF
KRYPTON. It became her Achilles' heel, of course. The story was all full
of "Yes, dear reader!"-brand amazing coincidences.

It does make me wonder, though. We know that our planet is made up of
all kinds of elements and compounds, so how consistent would Earthite
be? There'd have to be different colors of it, and why not different
textures, like liquid Earthite, and runny Earthite, and chunks of
Earthite with Pa Lane's signature on them.

Anyway, the story, as I recall it, was probably three parts in one
issue, and didn't have years to explore its component elements. I
suppose it was drawn by Kurt Schaffenberger, with his usual aplomb and
polish.


Kip W

[Mark Zenier]

In article <e630b3c2-4b81-4107...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I was recently at my favorite high-tech outdoor clothing manufacturer
>factory outlet. These guys like to play around with new ideas that
>are... a bit out there, to say kindly. For example they once made a
>bag with some kinda NASA gel-padding for your back. Discontinued -
>too difficult to manufacture. But overall, their stuff is top notch
>and really lasts forever so I like shopping there.
>
>This time I was looking at a blazer that was out of some kinda of
>slick pearl gray goretex. From a distance, it looked alright. Still
>wicked expensive, even though they had dropped their price by 75%. I
>wasn't convinced, but I appreciated their idea of making a rainproof
>dress vest.
>
>Then I saw... the quite prominent zipper they had running in the
>front, in addition to the buttons. The price drop and the fact that
>it was discontinued instantly made sense.
>
>This joins all the SF future clothing "innovations" like jumpsuits
>(great for going to the loo) and togas (who wants to look a like a
>fruity Roman?).
>
>The usual "what would the world look like to someone from the 50s"
>doesn't really apply to clothing, IMHO. We wear pretty much exactly
>the same things as before, it's just that the type (not quality) of
>clothing is not a reliable socio-economic indicator anymore. Lots of
>people wear what would be working-class clothes (jeans) and many
>people who are well-off avoid suits like the plague. But someone from
>the 50s would recognize pretty much everything, would they not? Aside
>from bikini shrinkage.

Unless you live near a popular running/jogging/bicycling route.
Bicyclists from Mars. And about 20 years ago, the black spandex
running tights with neon/dayglo highlights.

>So... can you think of any SF stories where clothing styles are
>prominent? Besides spacesuits or environmental survival suits. What
>do people wear? Does it make any sense? The closest I come to think
>of it are t-shirts with built-in display screens in Neuromancer. I'd
>love one of those.

My magic 8-ball memory brings up Ken MacLeod's _Newton's Wake_, where
in one culture it was very important for the arty set to keep up
with this minute's fashion.


Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <jcqcc7954jsa3djni...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>wrote:
>
>>The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>>If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
>>the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
>>scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
>>And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
>>invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
>>regardless of the earlier scene.
>
>If her supersuit turned invisible when she turned invisible, there
>could be a set of underwear walking about visibly.
>
>There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
>thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
>moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
>walking away and sagging into her natural figure.
>

Nah, it was perfect as shot. Here she is in the super-villian's fortress
and she still has a moment to regret that her suit makes her posterior
look big.

[Wayne Throop]

: mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier)
: My magic 8-ball memory brings up Ken MacLeod's _Newton's Wake_, where

: in one culture it was very important for the arty set to keep up with
: this minute's fashion.

"That look is *so* two minutes and thirty seconds ago."
--- Gaston Le Mode ("Run Away Runway")

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

In message
<7e311209-dc72-456d...@h5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> writes
>However I gotta say those Tik-Tok Trousers we see in the latest GG page
>are just to silly and simply Wrong. ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Trousers
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[Derek Lyons]

"Two minutes and thirty seconds ago is *so* ten minutes ago"

-- Me to my lady wife, while watching House do a "so x seconds ago"
routine.

D,

[Jerry Brown]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:22:36 -0700, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:15:00 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
>wrote:
>
>>The shyness response I was talking about was that, iirc, Violet
>>turned her head invisible to avoid her crush looking at her.
>>If she did that, ie, turning one body part invisible and leaving
>>the rest of herself visible... well... the implications of the
>>scene where she discovered the suit's properties were pretty blatant.
>>And given how effortlessly she turned her hand invislbe, partial
>>invisibility is clearly a move she's had experience with,
>>regardless of the earlier scene.
>
>If her supersuit turned invisible when she turned invisible, there
>could be a set of underwear walking about visibly.
>
>There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
>thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
>moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
>walking away and sagging into her natural figure.

ISTR that they were thinking of doing that (possibly mentioned in the
commentary or one of the documentaries), but didn't go ahead in the
end.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:08:44 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:Luv8y...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> In other words, women look at other women with envy if
> they are skinny, whereas men look at women if they are

> *not* skinny. [...]

Depends very much on the man.

Brian

[Robert Carnegie]

On Nov 17, 11:03 pm, tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> ...However I gotta say those Tik-Tok Trousers we see in the latest GG

> page are just to silly and simply Wrong. ;-)

We haven't seen the steam-powered feet properly in action. How do you
think they got to Mechanicsburg so fast, from, uh, wherever?
<http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20050420>

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2011-11-17 21:15:00 -0800, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:

> :: I don't think Violet's uniform had any invisibility function -- I
> :: think that was all Violet.
>
> Edna Mode sez:
> Your daughter's suit was tricky, but I finally created a sturdy
> material that can disappear completely as she does.
>
> And then the suit is shown turning invisible when touched by a pair of
> sparking spheres, no Violet present.
>
> And, as Andrew notes:
>
> : Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com>
> : Violet turns her hand invisible and touches her costume (which is
> : hanging on the rack). The whole costume disappears as soon as she
> : touches it.
>
> And similarly, in Edna's lab, the whole costume faded out even when the
> simulated invisibility mojo seemed unevenly distributed. So. Touch the
> suit anywhere with an invisible body part, the whole suit fades out.
>
> ( And my memory sez she was holding the suit up in her other hand.
> Holding the suit with her still-visible right hand, touching it with
> her invisible left. Specifically the forefinger of her left hand
> was wgat sge was touching the suit with before she faded it out.
> My memory could be faulty. But what's clear is that the suit is
> *very* sensitive to even the *smallest* touch of any invisible
> part of Violet touching it, and it reacts by entirely fading out. )
>
> I suspect that turning partly invisible wasn't really needed, but they
> wanted to show her surprised/delighted expression as the suit turned
> invisible, and to do that, they had to have her hand be invisible,
> and her face remain visible. But regardless of *why* they did it,
> if Violet turns any part of her body which contacts the suit invisible,
> poof, instant preternaturally transparent outfit.

Edna Mode is far smartier than that, darling.

The costume turns invisible when touched by someone using invisibility
powers, except those parts of it in contact with parts of the wearer
that have not turned invisible.

It's a feature, darling -- that way she can hide the costume without
having to wear it, you see?

La la, the new fabrics are in from Milan. Good-bye!

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Kip Williams]

And on the woman beholding as well.


Kip W

[Wayne Throop]

: Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
: Edna Mode is far smartier than that, darling.

: The costume turns invisible when touched by someone using invisibility
: powers, except those parts of it in contact with parts of the wearer
: that have not turned invisible.

It may have malfunctioned, then, since I don't recall any part of it
touching her visible hand remaining visible. But... I'd have to
check the scene again to be sure if that would be apparent.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

In a cleftish or uncleftish way?

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2011-11-18 15:56:22 -0800, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:

> : Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com>
> : Edna Mode is far smartier than that, darling.
> : The costume turns invisible when touched by someone using invisibility
> : powers, except those parts of it in contact with parts of the wearer
> : that have not turned invisible.
>
> It may have malfunctioned, then, since I don't recall any part of it
> touching her visible hand remaining visible.

The part under her fingertips, where you wouldn't be able to see it, of course!

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:58:13 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:ja6rem$rgr$2...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 11/18/11 6:52 PM, Kip Williams wrote:

>> Brian M. Scott wrote:

>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:08:44 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
>>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:Luv8y...@kithrup.com>
>>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>>> [...]

>>>> In other words, women look at other women with envy if
>>>> they are skinny, whereas men look at women if they are
>>>> *not* skinny. [...]

>>> Depends very much on the man.

>> And on the woman beholding as well.

> In a cleftish or uncleftish way?

Cleftish. Basic anatomy.

Brian

[Howard Brazee]

On 18 Nov 2011 19:03:12 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan

<tednolan>) wrote:

>>There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
>>thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
>>moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
>>walking away and sagging into her natural figure.
>>
>
>Nah, it was perfect as shot. Here she is in the super-villian's fortress
>and she still has a moment to regret that her suit makes her posterior
>look big.

That was a good start - but she's Elastigirl!!! She can have whatever
sized posterior she wants - temporarily.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 11/18/11 9:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 18 Nov 2011 19:03:12 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>>> There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
>>> thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
>>> moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
>>> walking away and sagging into her natural figure.
>>>
>>
>> Nah, it was perfect as shot. Here she is in the super-villian's fortress
>> and she still has a moment to regret that her suit makes her posterior
>> look big.
>
> That was a good start - but she's Elastigirl!!! She can have whatever
> sized posterior she wants - temporarily.
>

I thought she DID shift slightly in that scene.

[Kip Williams]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 11/18/11 9:58 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On 18 Nov 2011 19:03:12 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
>> <tednolan>) wrote:
>>
>>>> There's a scene where her mother looks at her figure in the mirror. I
>>>> thought that would be a great opportunity for a Fred Flintstone
>>>> moment, with Elastigirl giving herself her desired figure before
>>>> walking away and sagging into her natural figure.
>>>
>>> Nah, it was perfect as shot. Here she is in the super-villian's fortress
>>> and she still has a moment to regret that her suit makes her posterior
>>> look big.
>>
>> That was a good start - but she's Elastigirl!!! She can have whatever
>> sized posterior she wants - temporarily.
>
> I thought she DID shift slightly in that scene.

The scene reminds me of a similar moment in Disney's PETER PAN where
Tinkerbell catches sight of her keester in a mirror and reacts.


Kip W
rasfw

[DouhetSukd]

On Nov 17, 5:55 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <24a815be-7b7c-40b0-84c9-520f56878...@s7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> > tphile  <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> > >Yes and also how they can hear.  That is questions about most all
> > >superhero costumes and masks.  Usually answered by "comic science" and
> > >marvels unstable molecules.
> > >and can a domino mask or even a complete hood protect a secret
> > >identity?  If I know someone well, no matter what costume they wear I
> > >can recognize them from mannerisms, height, gender, voice.
>
> I always figured Spider-Man had one of the most convincing disguises
> out there (though it's hard to beat Sleepwalker). A full mask covering
> his face and conceivably muffling his voice, completely different
> manner with wise-cracking, hard to tell gait or other mannerisms with
> him usually hanging from a wall or ceiling.
>
> And then he sells exclusive pictures of himself under his name.
>
> --
> Juho Julkunen

Quite unlike Superman/Clark Kent, I'd venture. Now, that's a pretty
unlikely undisguised secret identity, IMHO. Though perhaps it is
intended as an ironic comment about how people fail to look past
superficial appearances? A la American Psycho, perhaps ;-)

[David DeLaney]

DouhetSukd <douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Quite unlike Superman/Clark Kent, I'd venture. Now, that's a pretty
>unlikely undisguised secret identity, IMHO. Though perhaps it is
>intended as an ironic comment about how people fail to look past
>superficial appearances? A la American Psycho, perhaps ;-)

What, you missed the issue explaining how Superman's glasses, made from chunks
from his babyrocket, allowed him an EIGHTH super-power, that of unconscious
super-hypnotism to allow his unlikely disguise to go unquestioned by all?

[Kip Williams]

David DeLaney wrote:
> DouhetSukd<douhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Quite unlike Superman/Clark Kent, I'd venture. Now, that's a pretty
>> unlikely undisguised secret identity, IMHO. Though perhaps it is
>> intended as an ironic comment about how people fail to look past
>> superficial appearances? A la American Psycho, perhaps ;-)
>
> What, you missed the issue explaining how Superman's glasses, made from chunks
> from his babyrocket, allowed him an EIGHTH super-power, that of unconscious
> super-hypnotism to allow his unlikely disguise to go unquestioned by all?

And just in case anybody thinks he's kidding, there really was such a
story. It even showed what everybody thinks Clark Kent looks like — a
somewhat shriveled version of himself, though not quite so far gone as
Clark Bent, assistant copyboy.


Kip W

[Kurt Busiek]

And it was promptly ignored by All and Sundry (including the people at
DC), much like the story that revealed that Mopee, and extradimensional
wizard, was responsible for the origin of the Flash.

[DouhetSukd]

On Nov 19, 10:25 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2011-11-19 10:13:55 -0800, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > David DeLaney wrote:

> >> DouhetSukd<douhets...@gmail.com>  wrote:

> >>> Quite unlike Superman/Clark Kent, I'd venture.  Now, that's a pretty
> >>> unlikely undisguised secret identity, IMHO.  Though perhaps it is
> >>> intended as an ironic comment about how people fail to look past
> >>> superficial appearances?   A la American Psycho, perhaps ;-)
>
> >> What, you missed the issue explaining how Superman's glasses, made from chunks
> >> from his babyrocket, allowed him an EIGHTH super-power, that of unconscious
> >> super-hypnotism to allow his unlikely disguise to go unquestioned by all?
>
> > And just in case anybody thinks he's kidding, there really was such a
> > story. It even showed what everybody thinks Clark Kent looks like — a
> > somewhat shriveled version of himself, though not quite so far gone as
> > Clark Bent, assistant copyboy.
>
> And it was promptly ignored by All and Sundry (including the people at
> DC), much like the story that revealed that Mopee, and extradimensional
> wizard, was responsible for the origin of the Flash.
>
> kdb
> --

> Visithttp://www.busiek.com-- for all your Busiek needs!

Tell you the truth, my perception at the time was that the glasses
_were_ responsible for the disguise. I mean physically, he is the
same. Superman is buff, ergo Clark is buff. Their face - same. What
makes Clark into a sniveling girlie man is obviously his glasses.
Visually, that's the only difference, besides the suit.

Not an endearing point of view for a 10 yr old kid who is discovering
comics as well as adjusting to wearing glasses for the first time in
his life.

Besides, of all the comic books I read at the time, Superman was the
first I got bored with. Since he is so super (way stronger than Hulk,
just as fast than Flash, as indestructible as whoever), what are the
actual challenges going to be each month? Oh, yes, it's the 38th time
with the Kryptonite. And next month is the 75th revision of "Under a
red sun".

"His toughest battle ever".

Boooring. You woulda thought a clever author would not have painted
himself into a corner by having such a powerful character that every
issue had to be either contrived or alternatively, had to purposefully
ignore certain aspects of Superman's powers that would have solved the
challenge right away - I am thinking mostly of the speed here.

I guess no one would run that type of character nowadays - partially
because comics are expensive enough that you have to target adults.
But it probably went well with post-war sentiments of good guys vs.
bad guys.

p.s. And I just looooved Niven's Super Sperm essay!

[David DeLaney]

Correct, I am NOT making this up. I used to be able to follow all the ins and
outs of the DC Multiverse, but lost that power some time around 15 years ago
or so; it was quite OBVIOUS that Earth-C-Minus was where Captain Carrot and
the Zoo Crew were from, while Earth-X had the Nazi triumph and the group whose
name I now forget with Uncle Sam, Doll Man, the Human Bomb, Phantom Lady, the
Black Condor, and the rest. Etc.

This all took the place in my brain of baseball statistics or football-league
standings or some of the other normal obsessions good American men have.