“Congress warned North Korean EMP attack would kill ‘90% of all Americans'”

[Lynn McGuire]

“Congress warned North Korean EMP attack would kill ‘90% of all Americans'”

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/congress-warned-north-korean-emp-attack-would-kill-90-of-all-americans/article/2637349

“Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking
the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down
the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of “all Americans” within a
year.”

“Just six months ago, most experts thought North Korea’s nuclear arsenal
was primitive, some academics claiming it had as few as 6 A-Bombs. Now
the intelligence community reportedly estimates North Korea has 60
nuclear weapons.”

From a friend, "Is this the same “intelligence community” that is
working overtime to undermine tRump and the same one that’s had so many
wunnerful successes over the decades?"

My reply, "“I was wondering this myself. How reliable are these bozos ?”

His reply, "Great minds think alike…."

Hat tip to:
http://drudgereport.com/

Lynn

[J. Clarke]

I sense a Beltway Bandit desperately in need of a contract.

[David Johnston]

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “Congress warned North Korean EMP attack would kill ‘90% of all Americans'”
>
> http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/congress-warned-north-korean-emp-attack-would-kill-90-of-all-americans/article/2637349
>
> “Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking
> the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down
> the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of “all Americans” within a
> year.”

I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would take that kind of idiocy seriously.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

It's Lynn, if it favors trump he's all for it.

[Robert Carnegie]

Perhaps there's confusion about means - it is North Korea's
computer hackers who will wreck the electric power grid,
basically by programming it to join the wrong wires
together, koblooey. Um, it's said. Meanwhile, the EMP
destroys all car radios. Between these two events,
all news that isn't contained in end-times survivalist
novels is prevented from publication.

For this and other reasons it does seem likely that
the population of America will be lot less at the end
of this administration than at the beginning.

[J. Clarke]

They haven't demonstrated the ability to deliver a warhead anywhere
that an EMP would be an issue. If they want to fry the lateral line
of every fish in the Bering Sea they're welcome to it. 15 minutes
later they will no longer be a problem to anyone.

[Dimensional Traveler]

I think the Chinese will consider the glowing ashes of the North Korean
population falling on their cities a problem.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:

> http://drudgereport.com/

Sure. News to wipe your arse with.

[Quadibloc]

What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?
That should tell us how many people could be fed in the absence of electricity.

However, that may be overoptimistic. For one thing, it takes _time_ to breed
horses and grow them to maturity. So, given that it takes electricity to pump
gasoline out of its tanks in gas stations, and considering that some motor
vehicle electrical systems could be impacted by EMP - especially now that newer
vehicles have extensive computerized stuff, some of which, related to emissions,
has taken over the function of parts like the *distributor*.

Plus, there's the question of panic, and gun violence over diminished food
stocks.

So casualties might be higher than... would initially seem to be the unavoidable
minimum due to the actual net deficit in food production.

John Savard

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <orq4rt$isv$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net says...

>
> On 10/12/2017 11:29 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:18:18 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> > <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, 13 October 2017 03:28:59 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> >>>> ?Congress warned North Korean EMP attack would kill ?90% of all Americans'?
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/congress-warned-north-korean-emp-attack-would-kill-90-of-all-americans/article/2637349
> >>>>
> >>>> ?Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking

> >>>> the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down

> >>>> the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of ?all Americans? within a
> >>>> year.?

> >>>
> >>> I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would
> >>> take that kind of idiocy seriously.
> >>
> >> Perhaps there's confusion about means - it is North Korea's
> >> computer hackers who will wreck the electric power grid,
> >> basically by programming it to join the wrong wires
> >> together, koblooey. Um, it's said. Meanwhile, the EMP
> >> destroys all car radios. Between these two events,
> >> all news that isn't contained in end-times survivalist
> >> novels is prevented from publication.
> >>
> >> For this and other reasons it does seem likely that
> >> the population of America will be lot less at the end
> >> of this administration than at the beginning.
> >
> > They haven't demonstrated the ability to deliver a warhead anywhere
> > that an EMP would be an issue. If they want to fry the lateral line
> > of every fish in the Bering Sea they're welcome to it. 15 minutes
> > later they will no longer be a problem to anyone.
> >
> I think the Chinese will consider the glowing ashes of the North Korean
> population falling on their cities a problem.

Things might not go so well for South Korea, either.

Also, both China and Russia might take objection to ICBMs flying over
or towards their territory.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

>
> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:28:59 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>

> > > ?Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking

> > > the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down

> > > the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of ?all Americans? within a
> > > year.?
>

> > I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would take that kind of idiocy
> > seriously.
>
> What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?
> That should tell us how many people could be fed in the absence of electricity.
>
> However, that may be overoptimistic. For one thing, it takes _time_ to breed
> horses and grow them to maturity. So, given that it takes electricity to pump
> gasoline out of its tanks in gas stations, and considering that some motor
> vehicle electrical systems could be impacted by EMP - especially now that newer
> vehicles have extensive computerized stuff, some of which, related to emissions,
> has taken over the function of parts like the *distributor*.
>
> Plus, there's the question of panic, and gun violence over diminished food
> stocks.
>
> So casualties might be higher than... would initially seem to be the unavoidable
> minimum due to the actual net deficit in food production.

Because the United States would, of course, not be able to procure food
from abroad. Or trucks.

I have no idea how long it would take to get their third-world
electrical grid back up. The example of Puerto Rico is not encouraging.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.344b0ed19...@news.kolumbus.fi:

The effects of an EMP are greatly overrated. And abilities of those
who run vital utilities like the electric grid are dismissed as
fantasy, or those inviduals assumed to be active saboteurs. In both
cases, the assumptions say more about the assumers' intelligence
than the electric grid.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[David Johnston]

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 9:02:09 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:28:59 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > > “Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking
> > > the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down
> > > the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of “all Americans” within a
> > > year.”
>
> > I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would take that kind of idiocy
> > seriously.
>
> What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?

Who cares? You might be able to crash the national power grid for a while...although I doubt it. More likely you'd get a regional blackout like the big eastern seaboard blackout back when. But it wouldn't just stay out. Real life isn't a prepper novel.

[Scott Lurndal]

Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> writes:
>In article <orq4rt$isv$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net says...

>> > They haven't demonstrated the ability to deliver a warhead anywhere
>> > that an EMP would be an issue. If they want to fry the lateral line
>> > of every fish in the Bering Sea they're welcome to it. 15 minutes
>> > later they will no longer be a problem to anyone.
>> >
>> I think the Chinese will consider the glowing ashes of the North Korean
>> population falling on their cities a problem.
>
>Things might not go so well for South Korea, either.
>
>Also, both China and Russia might take objection to ICBMs flying over
>or towards their territory.

A few tomahawk-N's would surely be sufficient, and less likely to
trigger WWIII.

[Scott Lurndal]

<781eabce-e59a-41ef...@googlegroups.com> <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>
Organization:
Keywords:

>In article <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>,
>jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...
>>

>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:28:59 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>

>> > > ?Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking

>> > > the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down

>> > > the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of ?all Americans? within a
>> > > year.?
>>

>> > I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would take that kind of idiocy
>> > seriously.
>>
>> What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?

>> That should tell us how many people could be fed in the absence of electricity.

Why? The population wasn't "saturated" at that point, so you really
cannot draw too many conclusions vis-a-vis fed without electricity (and
even today, there is relatively little electricity used to plant,
nurture and harvest crops. Lots of fuel, but little electricity; milk
production being a notable exception).

And of course, EMP will have little effect on solar panels.

>>
>> However, that may be overoptimistic. For one thing, it takes _time_ to breed
>> horses and grow them to maturity. So, given that it takes electricity to pump
>> gasoline out of its tanks in gas stations,

Have you never seen a hand pump? They still exist, you know.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <orq4rt$isv$1...@dont-email.me>,

Because of prevailing winds, Japan is more likely to see those glowing
ashes.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-10-13, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> Perhaps there's confusion about means - it is North Korea's
> computer hackers who will wreck the electric power grid,
> basically by programming it to join the wrong wires
> together,

fnarr fnarr

> koblooey.

i think you misspelt kibology?

> Um, it's said. Meanwhile, the EMP
> destroys all car radios. Between these two events,
> all news that isn't contained in end-times survivalist
> novels is prevented from publication.

HEAR YE, HEAR YE! {rings borrowed handbell}

> For this and other reasons it does seem likely that
> the population of America will be lot less at the end
> of this administration than at the beginning.

Dave, our suspension of disbelief is certainly diminishing rapidly
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-10-13, Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> I think the Chinese will consider the glowing ashes of the North Korean
> population falling on their cities a problem.

Don't we have dial-a-yield bombs yet? Can't we just nuke them until they
sputter and sparkle, vampirically?

Dave, hBOOMtp://

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-10-13, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The effects of an EMP are greatly overrated. And abilities of those
> who run vital utilities like the electric grid are dismissed as
> fantasy, or those inviduals assumed to be active saboteurs. In both
> cases, the assumptions say more about the assumers' intelligence
> than the electric grid.

... are you saying you WOULDN'T enjoy being an active saboteur, should
circumstances require one?

Dave, dress for the job you want

[Lynn McGuire]

Jealous much over a man with 30,000,000+ page views a day ?

I have no idea what his monetization of that is but I'll bet quite a
bit. And he reputedly only has one employee.

And, www.cnn.com and www.msnbc.com are the fake news outlets.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 10/13/2017 11:46 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
...

> And of course, EMP will have little effect on solar panels.

...

I totally agree. I just hope that DC to AC inverter does not turn into
a smoking mess. When I was was a power plant engineer, we used DC motor
- AC generator sets for our DC to AC conversion. Of course, that was
back in the dark ages (the 1980s).

Lynn

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:_a6dnXb48v6mh3zE...@earthlink.com:

> On 2017-10-13, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The effects of an EMP are greatly overrated. And abilities of
>> those who run vital utilities like the electric grid are
>> dismissed as fantasy, or those inviduals assumed to be active
>> saboteurs. In both cases, the assumptions say more about the
>> assumers' intelligence than the electric grid.
>
> ... are you saying you WOULDN'T enjoy being an active saboteur,
> should circumstances require one?

What circumstances would require people who have devoted their lives
to keeping the power on for 300 million people to suddenly become
sabateurs for North Korea? (And keep in mind, you're talking tens or
hundreds of thousands of people, and pretty much all of them would
have to be in on it, or killed by those who are.)

>
> Dave, dress for the job you want

In some cases, that would be clown makeup. In others, a dunce cap. On
usenet, usually, both.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 13 October 2017 20:55:45 UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2017-10-13, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The effects of an EMP are greatly overrated. And abilities of those
> > who run vital utilities like the electric grid are dismissed as
> > fantasy, or those inviduals assumed to be active saboteurs. In both
> > cases, the assumptions say more about the assumers' intelligence
> > than the electric grid.
>
> ... are you saying you WOULDN'T enjoy being an active saboteur, should
> circumstances require one?

It's kind of what he does here.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
news:4e00e468-a751-42eb...@googlegroups.com:

Yeah, but so far, nobody has died as a result. I do keep hoping,
though. I've alreach achieved my other life's ambition.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 10:46:09 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >In article <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>,
> >jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...

> >> What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?
> >> That should tell us how many people could be fed in the absence of electricity.

> Why? The population wasn't "saturated" at that point,

You are quite correct, that would be a _pessimistic_ estimate. However, that
doesn't invalidate my point, since the population then was more than 10% of its
present value.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> And, www.cnn.com and www.msnbc.com are the fake news outlets.

That is a... view of reality... not shared by most.

John Savard

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> It's kind of what he does here.

Nah, he's more of an agent provocateur than a saboteur.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
French, the language of love, statesmanship and arrogance.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote in
news:g46dnWXibp28R3zE...@giganews.com:

> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's kind of what he does here.
>
> Nah, he's more of an agent provocateur than a saboteur.
>

One of my favorite internet memes: "I'm not an asshole. I'm a
hemorrhoid. I irritate assholes."

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/13/2017 7:30 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> http://drudgereport.com/
>>
>> Sure. News to wipe your arse with.
>
>Jealous much over a man with 30,000,000+ page views a day ?

That could just be 100,000 people refreshing thirty times a day. Inconsequential.

In any case, popularity isn't a metric that interested me. Truth is.

And Drudge has only a passing aquaintance with the truth.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 10/16/2017 7:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 10/13/2017 7:30 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> http://drudgereport.com/
>>>
>>> Sure. News to wipe your arse with.
>>
>> Jealous much over a man with 30,000,000+ page views a day ?
>
> That could just be 100,000 people refreshing thirty times a day. Inconsequential.
>
> In any case, popularity isn't a metric that interested me. Truth is.
>
> And Drudge has only a passing aquaintance with the truth.

Drudge is a news aggregator. There is almost no original content on his
site. He just chooses the news leads to display.

Lynn

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 11:42:13 AM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> Drudge is a news aggregator. There is almost no original content on his
> site. He just chooses the news leads to display.

But does he choose only trustworthy sources to aggregate from?

John Savard

[Lynn McGuire]

You tell me. You already know my opinion on www.cnn.com and
www.msnbc.com, fake news !

Lynn

[Peter Trei]

When you say "fake news", what exactly do you mean? Are you saying they're
creating stories out of whole cloth, or do you mean that you disagree with
their interpretation of real events?

Can you give an actual example of 'fake news', and the grounds on which
you apply that label to it?

pt

[Scott Lurndal]

You and your moron trump make the claim often. However, neither you nor he
ever back it up with, you know, actual evidence.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 7:00:23 AM UTC+11, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 3:37:59 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 10/16/2017 12:44 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 11:42:13 AM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >
> > >> Drudge is a news aggregator. There is almost no original content on his
> > >> site. He just chooses the news leads to display.
> > >
> > > But does he choose only trustworthy sources to aggregate from?
> > >
> > > John Savard
> >
> > You tell me. You already know my opinion on www.cnn.com and
> > www.msnbc.com, fake news !
>
> When you say "fake news", what exactly do you mean? Are you saying they're
> creating stories out of whole cloth, or do you mean that you disagree with
> their interpretation of real events?
>

It means it disagrees with Lynn

[J. Clarke]

At this point "Trump tweets bullshit" is "fake news". When (a) Trump
does not tweet or (b) Trump tweets and it is not bullshit, _that_ will
be non-fake news.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 7:18:39 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> At this point "Trump tweets bullshit" is "fake news". When (a) Trump
> does not tweet or (b) Trump tweets and it is not bullshit, _that_ will
> be non-fake news.

That will certainly be _news_. On the basis of the "man bites dog" definition.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

What reason do you have to believe that nothing those outfits report on
happens?

[Quadibloc]

He is not making *that* claim, which would be much more laughable than the also
somewhat laughable claim that he is making: that when those news outlets say one
thing, and outlets like Fox News differ, Fox News is the one telling the truth.

Unfortunately, there _is_, and has been for some time, quite a bit of truth to
the charge that the mainstream media has a systemic liberal bias. Remembering
the story of "The little boy who cried 'Wolf!'", perhaps we should not criticize
Lynn *too* strongly for failing to recognize that despite their bias, it is
still true that in Trump, the wolf really *has* come this time.

The thing is, though, while Trump acts like an ignorant boor, apparently he
really is intelligent, surprisingly, and I doubt very much that he is actually a
racist. That Russia has dangerous leverage over him, though, I see as highly
likely.

John Savard

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 3:42:44 PM UTC+11, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 10:24:51 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2017-10-16 1:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > > You tell me.  You already know my opinion on www.cnn.com and
> > > www.msnbc.com, fake news !
>
> > What reason do you have to believe that nothing those outfits report on
> > happens?
>
> He is not making *that* claim, which would be much more laughable than the also
> somewhat laughable claim that he is making: that when those news outlets say one
> thing, and outlets like Fox News differ, Fox News is the one telling the truth.
>
> Unfortunately, there _is_, and has been for some time, quite a bit of truth to
> the charge that the mainstream media has a systemic liberal bias.

Oh bullshit.
Says things that conservatives hate doesn't mean it's got a systemic liberal bias.

Remembering
> the story of "The little boy who cried 'Wolf!'", perhaps we should not criticize
> Lynn *too* strongly for failing to recognize that despite their bias, it is
> still true that in Trump, the wolf really *has* come this time.
>
> The thing is, though, while Trump acts like an ignorant boor, apparently he
> really is intelligent,

According to who?
And when, because I do seem to recall evidence that he could make sense while speaking 15 or 20 years ago but it seems to be beyond him now.

> surprisingly, and I doubt very much that he is actually a
> racist.

Saying that a judge couldn't make a fair call on his case because he's of mexican heritage?
Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power

[Quadibloc]

North Korean rhetoric continues to escalate:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/north-korea-says-a-nuclear-war-may-break-out-any-moment-1.3635018

John Savard

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-10-16, Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 3:37:59 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> You tell me. You already know my opinion on www.cnn.com and
>> www.msnbc.com, fake news !
>
> When you say "fake news", what exactly do you mean? Are you saying they're
> creating stories out of whole cloth, or do you mean that you disagree with
> their interpretation of real events?

No fair making him THINK about the possible meanings of a very loud dogwhistle
he has picked up from his Melanian masters!

> Can you give an actual example of 'fake news', and the grounds on which
> you apply that label to it?

No, he can't. Since he doesn't actually know what Donald Trump will or won't
like from day to day (or even moment to moment), he has no certainty on whether
today's "fake news" will be tomorrow's forgotten scandal.

About all he can use for a guideline is that if it is critical in any way of
the McDonald, it will be "fake news" forever. Or mocking of.

At least Colbert's Big Furry Hat pronouncements last forever!

Dave, tired of people who have disconnected themselves willingly from reality
and truth-value-based judgement

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-10-17, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> Unfortunately, there _is_, and has been for some time, quite a bit of truth to
> the charge that the mainstream media has a systemic liberal bias.

Unfortunately, a great deal of that is due to the facts that reality, and
working ethical systems, both have a strong and systemic liberal bias.

Dave, missing the days when "conservative" implied "knew how things actually
worked"

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 1:42:27 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:

> Dave, missing the days when "conservative" implied "knew how things actually
> worked"

It's certainly true that after John McCain, the Republican Party jumped off the
deep end.

However, in general, one can't be too nostalgic about conservatives, since as
you go further back, you eventually hit the point where conservatives were the
ones who were content to leave racism alone instead of doing anything about it.

Liberals, though, have seemed to be going too far for a while as well. Myself, I
yearn for the Kennedy years, when a healthy middle-of-the-road existed.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

Give the entire quote. His reasoning was that it is widely known that
he wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico, it is widely known
that people of Mexican descent are, as a group, opposed to this wall,
ruling against him in a lawsuit might reduce the chances of his
becoming President (he was not in office at the time), and so might
prevent construction of this wall, therefore a judge of Mexican
descent might have a conflict of interest when presiding over a case
in which Trump is defendant.

This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
judges.

>Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?

Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
its prisons into the US.

>If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power

Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
to brand him a racist.

The guy seems to be an idiot. Trying to paint him as evil gives him
too much credit.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

funny how it's only non-white people who can be affected by bias...
Alleging a judge has a conflict of interest because he's of mexican descent is racist.

>
> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
> judges.
>
> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
>
> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
> its prisons into the US.
>

and that makes it completely different...

> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
>
> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
> to brand him a racist.

His statements make that point without being taken out of context.

[Greg Goss]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 1:42:27 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> Dave, missing the days when "conservative" implied "knew how things actually
>> worked"
>
>It's certainly true that after John McCain, the Republican Party jumped off the
>deep end.

DURING McCain. Palin is part of the deep end.

--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Chris Buckley]

On 2017-10-17, hamis...@gmail.com <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 3:42:44 PM UTC+11, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 10:24:51 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
>> > On 2017-10-16 1:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> > > You tell me.  You already know my opinion on www.cnn.com and
>> > > www.msnbc.com, fake news !
>>
>> > What reason do you have to believe that nothing those outfits report on
>> > happens?
>>
>> He is not making *that* claim, which would be much more laughable than the also
>> somewhat laughable claim that he is making: that when those news outlets say one
>> thing, and outlets like Fox News differ, Fox News is the one telling the truth.
>>
>> Unfortunately, there _is_, and has been for some time, quite a bit of truth to
>> the charge that the mainstream media has a systemic liberal bias.
>
> Oh bullshit.
> Says things that conservatives hate doesn't mean it's got a systemic liberal bias.

Here's what a Washington Post editor has said (the Washington Post is our home
town paper that we've subscribed to since 1996):

"The elephant in the newsroom is our narrowness. Too often, we wear
liberalism on our sleeve and are intolerant of other lifestyles and
opinions... We're not very subtle about it at this paper. If you work
here, you must be one of us. You must be liberal, progressive, a Democrat."

This was over 10 years ago. They've removed constraints (like the
ombudsman) since then and are much less subtle.

Chris

[David Johnston]

Is it? Trump said otherwise.

"Now, this judge is of Mexican heritage. I'm building a wall, OK? I'm
building a wall. I am going to do very well with the Hispanics, the
Mexicans --"

> ruling against him in a lawsuit might reduce the chances of his
> becoming President (he was not in office at the time), and so might
> prevent construction of this wall, therefore a judge of Mexican
> descent might have a conflict of interest when presiding over a case
> in which Trump is defendant.
>
> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
> judges.
>
>> Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
>
> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
> its prisons into the US.

Right. He said most _immigrants_ from Mexico are rapists and other
criminals. There's a difference. And that he's not sure if any aren't,
of course.

[Peter Trei]

He also said (approximately) 'And some, I'm sure, are good people'.

He's learned the lawyer/corporate/politician-speak trick of making claims
with escape clauses.

Look at the actual wording of his recent statments where he attempted to
convince people he was the first president to call families of bereaved
soldiers, for a good example.

pt

[J. Clarke]

Nope. White people can be affected by bias too. But the wall is
specific to Mexico. If Trump wanted to make a wall on the Canadian
border and the judge was of Canadian descent the argument would be
equally valid.

>> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
>> judges.
>>
>> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
>>
>> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
>> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
>> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
>> its prisons into the US.
>>
>
>and that makes it completely different...

>> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
>>
>> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
>> to brand him a racist.
>
>His statements make that point without being taken out of context.

And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.

[J. Clarke]

Show me this "most immigrants from Mexico are rapists" quote.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

Yes it would be equally valid...
Not at all.

>
> >> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
> >> judges.
> >>
> >> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
> >>
> >> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
> >> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
> >> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
> >> its prisons into the US.
> >>
> >
> >and that makes it completely different...
>
> >> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
> >>
> >> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
> >> to brand him a racist.
> >
> >His statements make that point without being taken out of context.
>
> And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.

Asking that a judge recuse himself because of his race is racist period.

[J. Clarke]

So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect a judge of Canadian
descent to be biased but not a one of Mexican descent?

>> >> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
>> >> judges.
>> >>
>> >> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
>> >>
>> >> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
>> >> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
>> >> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
>> >> its prisons into the US.
>> >>
>> >
>> >and that makes it completely different...
>>
>> >> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
>> >>
>> >> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
>> >> to brand him a racist.
>> >
>> >His statements make that point without being taken out of context.
>>
>> And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.
>
>Asking that a judge recuse himself because of his race is racist period.

But it would be OK to ask a judge to do so under identical
circumstances if the judge was a different ethnicity?

[hamis...@gmail.com]

WTF has ever argued that?

>
> >> >> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
> >> >> judges.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
> >> >>
> >> >> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
> >> >> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
> >> >> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
> >> >> its prisons into the US.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >and that makes it completely different...
> >>
> >> >> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
> >> >>
> >> >> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
> >> >> to brand him a racist.
> >> >
> >> >His statements make that point without being taken out of context.
> >>
> >> And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.
> >
> >Asking that a judge recuse himself because of his race is racist period.
>
> But it would be OK to ask a judge to do so under identical
> circumstances if the judge was a different ethnicity?

WTF has ever argued that?

[David Johnston]

Rapists and other criminals.

Here you go.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ...
They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing
those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime.
They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people,"

[Butch Malahide]

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 7:42:52 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire writes:
> >
> >Jealous much over a man with 30,000,000+ page views a day ?
>
> That could just be 100,000 people refreshing thirty times a day.

No, 300 times a day.

[J. Clarke]

You. Or is there some other interpretation for the response "Not at
all" when it was suggested that the complaint would be equally valid
against a judge of Canadian descent if the wall was to be between the
US and Canada. Either the argument is equally valid or it isn't. If
it isn't that suggests that, since you claim that the judge of Mexican
descent would not be biased, you believe that the judge of Canadian
descent would be.

>> >> >> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
>> >> >> judges.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
>> >> >> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
>> >> >> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
>> >> >> its prisons into the US.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >and that makes it completely different...
>> >>
>> >> >> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
>> >> >> to brand him a racist.
>> >> >
>> >> >His statements make that point without being taken out of context.
>> >>
>> >> And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.
>> >
>> >Asking that a judge recuse himself because of his race is racist period.
>>
>> But it would be OK to ask a judge to do so under identical
>> circumstances if the judge was a different ethnicity?
>
>WTF has ever argued that?

You seem to be since you're claiming that it's wrong to ask a judge of
Mexican descent to recuse himself over an issue that specifically
affects Mexicans.

[J. Clarke]

I am aware of that quote. I do not see anything about "most being
rapists".

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 7:29:56 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 20:03:59 -0700 (PDT), hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 1:40:34 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 18:36:26 -0700 (PDT), hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> But the wall is
> >> >> specific to Mexico. If Trump wanted to make a wall on the Canadian
> >> >> border and the judge was of Canadian descent the argument would be
> >> >> equally valid.
> >> >
> >> >Yes it would be equally valid...
> >> >Not at all.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect a judge of Canadian
> >> descent to be biased but not a one of Mexican descent?
> >
> >WTF has ever argued that?
>
> You. Or is there some other interpretation for the response "Not at
> all" when it was suggested that the complaint would be equally valid
> against a judge of Canadian descent if the wall was to be between the
> US and Canada.

I wrote

"Yes it would be equally valid...
Not at all."

so the complaint would be just as valid against a judge of Canadian heritage as it would be against a judge of Mexican heritiage, not at all valid in either case.

Learn to read ffs.

[David Johnston]

and other criminals. It's covered by some being good people. Meaning
most are the aforementioned criminals.

[J. Clarke]

So now you're asserting that people in general are incapable of bias?

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:12:18 -0600, David Johnston

Most of those that Mexico sends. Since Mexico doesn't seem to
actually send anybody, that has to be a minority of immigrants and
wetbacks.

[David Johnston]

I'm sorry what does reality have to do with what Donald Trump says?

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:59:09 -0600, David Johnston

Very little which leave one wondering why people get so excited about
it.

[David Johnston]

Because 30% of your country buy what he sells. And because he'll make
policy based on it.

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:30:39 -0600, David Johnston

And then he'll change it next time the wind shifts. And meanwhile
Congress doesn't seem to be in a mood to cooperate.

[Chrysi Cat]

Which is all well and good for immigration, but when he says we have a
totally reliable missile-defence system and invites NorK and Iran to
test it, that's not something that being a weathervane can fix!

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

[Robert Carnegie]

It appears to me that if President Trump is persuaded that
something he was trying to do is bad, he waits a while and
then does it anyway when you weren't looking. That behaviour
pattern is either "statesman" or "toddler".

It also appears to me that he has a restricted vocabulary -
or perhaps he thinks that his Twitter audience does.
Of course, when he speaks a speech, he probably didn't
think of most or all of it; however, he has to be able to
read it. My con check cure is its may nelly phone a tick.

So I used the word "bad" so that he knows that we know
what he's doing. Then he will stop being naughty.
Until he has a sleep and forgets again.

[J. Clarke]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:14:13 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Iran doesn't have the means and North Korea is going to do whatever
they are going to do.

[Michael A Terrell]

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> <781eabce-e59a-41ef...@googlegroups.com> <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>
> Organization:
> Keywords:
>
>
>> In article <698d2908-486e-49ea...@googlegroups.com>,
>> jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:28:59 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 8:00:28 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ?Congress was warned Thursday that North Korea is capable of attacking
>>>>> the U.S. today with a nuclear EMP bomb that could indefinitely shut down
>>>>> the electric power grid and kill 90 percent of ?all Americans? within a
>>>>> year.?
>>>
>>>> I am truly frightened by the idea that anyone would take that kind of idiocy
>>>> seriously.
>>>
>>> What was the population of the United States prior to *rural* electrification?
>>> That should tell us how many people could be fed in the absence of electricity.
>
> Why? The population wasn't "saturated" at that point, so you really
> cannot draw too many conclusions vis-a-vis fed without electricity
>(and even today, there is relatively little electricity used to plant,
> nurture and harvest crops. Lots of fuel, but little electricity; milk
> production being a notable exception).
>
> And of course, EMP will have little effect on solar panels.
>
>>>
>>> However, that may be overoptimistic. For one thing, it takes _time_ to breed
>>> horses and grow them to maturity. So, given that it takes electricity to pump
>>> gasoline out of its tanks in gas stations,
>
> Have you never seen a hand pump? They still exist, you know.


A lot of gas stations have generators, at least here in Hurricane areas.

[Lynn McGuire]

Huh ? Not in the Houston area when we had widespread outages during
hurricane Ike in 2008.

We did not have many power failures during hurricane Harvey due to the
fact it was a tropical storm by the time it got to Houston.

Lynn

[Michael A Terrell]

Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/26/2017 3:18 PM, Michael A Terrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> A lot of gas stations have generators, at least here in Hurricane
>> areas.
>

> Huh? Not in the Houston area when we had widespread outages during
> hurricane Ike in 2008.


A lot can change in a decade.

> We did not have many power failures during hurricane Harvey due to the
> fact it was a tropical storm by the time it got to Houston.

They didn't in Central Florida in 2004, but new stations have them.
Many others now have a transfer switch to allow a generator to be
connected, to use up their remaining fuel.

Our biggest problem was that I-75 was shut down many times by major
wrecks. That forced those fleeing from South Florida onto alternate
routes on State roads where they bought every drop of fuel from stations
that generally only serve small towns. They would be waiting along the
highway for tankers to unload at stations, and buy everything. Around
here, that was usually around 3:00 AM.

I spent three days and two nights at a special needs shelter. It is
at a local High School that was designed to double as a shelter. Even
so, one of their backup generators failed so they were shuffling around
those who needed oxygen to a building on the remaining generator. All
they had in the other buildings was emergency lighting.

It was two weeks before I could find any gasoline.

The McDonald's in Belleview Florida not only had backup power, but
they had a refrigerated trailer full of extra food on site to last them
until they roads reopened. Even now, grocery stores still have many
empty shelves. It looks like they are afraid to fully restock until the
Hurricane season ends.

I had six gallons of distilled water on hand, along with a dozen two
liters bottles of diet soda. I survived on canned meat, stew and
vegetables. I am still having trouble finding the food that I am
supposed to be eating, which is playing hell with my Glucose levels.

[Lynn McGuire]

I would like to turn the Food Stamp program into a daily basic
nutritional allowance MRE program distributed by the Post Office. If
you want food, just go to the local Post Office and get your daily MRE.
Each Post Office should get an 18 wheeler of MREs as needed. Note, this
is not an original idea but from Marko Kloos great books.

https://www.amazon.com/Terms-Enlistment-Frontlines-Marko-Kloos/dp/1477809783/

BTW, I keep about 120 cases of Ozarka water in the garage and several
person months of food in the house. We used a little bit during Harvey
but not much. We were blessed when Harvey went south of Houston instead
of north.
https://www.winsim.com/corner_of_water.jpg

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

Meals Ready to Eat is what most American soldiers
die of, mainly due to absence of vegetables or
vitamins of any kind.

I don't know if what I just said is true but it
does seem that genocide is what you have in mind -
women and children first.

[Lynn McGuire]

I wish that you knew what you talked about. My son was in the USMC for
four years. Somewhere around a third of his meals were MREs, especially
on his two tours of duty in Iraq. Three of his buddies that died on the
first tour were killed in a vehicle mine right in front of his humvee.
The other guy that died on that tour was killed by an Iraqi soldier in
their FOB. My son put ten rounds of 9mm into that Iraqi soldier who
managed to survive it long enough to be turned over to the Iraqi
military (he did not survive that). Luckily, no marines in his
battalion died on his second tour.

The biggest problem with Military MREs is the lack of fiber. My son
says that they all got their intestines bound up after the first six
weeks in the field.

I'll bet that you have never even seen a MRE. Or eaten one. I've had
several and solidly enjoyed them. Much better than the old K rations.

Lynn

[Michael A Terrell]

What an utterly stupid idea. My post office is ten miles away. II
have trouble walking, and I went most of a year with no transportation.
This moron would have millions of others dying, for his sick fantasy.

I've had MREs as well as their predecessors, while in the US Army.
Some of them were made before I was born, and they were disgusting.

Why not just line up anyone who isn't perfect, and shoot them. It
would be kinder.

> https://www.amazon.com/Terms-Enlistment-Frontlines-Marko-Kloos/dp/1477809783/
>
>
> BTW, I keep about 120 cases of Ozarka water in the garage and several
> person months of food in the house. We used a little bit during
> Harvey but not much. We were blessed when Harvey went south of
> Houston instead of north.
> https://www.winsim.com/corner_of_water.jpg

So, they will have plenty of time to adsorb the BPAs from the
plastic? :)


My garage is detached, so it wouldn't be a good idea to limp out
there on a cane, and carry a few bottles at time, in high winds, heavy
rain and lightning.

[J. Clarke]

I think the real issue with MREs in the context of food for the poor
is that they aren't cheap. They aren't intended to be "barely keep
you alive" survival rations, they're intended to keep soldiers fueled
while they do an estimated 3600 calories/day of soldier stuff.

[mcdow...@sky.com]

I suspect that lack of fibre is a constraint due to package size and perhaps even to make the logistics of hygiene in the field easier. There is a similar complaint about UK field rations in McManners' "Falklands Commando." Apart from that, it would be insane to lose wars by not feeding your soldiers properly, given the costs of getting them and everything else out there, so I would expect them to have a reasonable nutritional balance.

The UK doesn't have a benefit comparable to US food stamps. In the past few years there has been a large expansion of "food banks" - charities distributing food to the needy. I'm not sure what's driving this, because I don't see people who look like they're starving and I'm pretty sure the UK mainland in 2017 is a lot richer - even for the poor - than N.Ireland in 1977 and we didn't have food banks, or reported deaths from hunger.

I think direct government distribution of a food dole would probably end up as a classic example of why government projects are less efficient. They may have missed a bullet by not providing a government approved diet, too. It's looking more and more like the push for low fat food did more harm than good by increasing the use of sugar/HFCS as an additive, with sugar/HFCS being far worse for you than fat. It's one thing for government advice to be wrong. It's another thing for a government order, or a government supply, to be accused of killing people.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:47:57 PM UTC-6, Michael A Terrell wrote:

> I've had MREs as well as their predecessors, while in the US Army.
> Some of them were made before I was born, and they were disgusting.

But, why, that's the whole idea! Why should lazy useless welfare layabouts eat
better than the brave heroes facing peril defending our country?

Issues like cost and efficiency - and the fact that MREs are used only when and
where they have to be used because of issues of logistics - are simply
irrelevant.

Personally, though, I've pretty much had it with the interminable debate between
your Libertarian tax hater versus your bleeding-heart liberal.

Because they're both "right" in the sense that both of them operate from
premises that derive from valid points.

Stealing is wrong.

And it isn't anyone's fault that his parents were poor.

Both of these points are so obviously true as to rate a "DUH", but each side
runs off with its favored point to reach conclusions that deny the *other* true
point.

Rigorous logic, therefore, that accepts that both points are true, thus leads us to the conclusion that a humane social order must:

a) ensure that no child experiences the sufferings of poverty merely due to deficiencies of his parents, and

b) not use the idea that a "democratic majority" has the right or authority to
help itself to the money any individual earns through his own toil and sweat to
actually collect _taxes_ for purpose (a) above.

What, you say? It is absolutely _impossible_ to do this?

Nonsense.

Sterilize the poor.

Problem solved.

Of course, both the left wing and the right wing would gasp in horror at such a
solution. (Even if, _historically_, some of the right wing might not.)

The left wing would note that poverty isn't equally distributed by ethnic
origin, and thus such a program would amount to genocide - against black
Americans, for example, among others.

The right would condemn this as a nightmarish intrusion into the sanctity of the
family unit.

This, however, does not seem to inspire the right wing and the left wing with
the idea that perhaps in the real world, some sort of *compromise* might be in
order.

However, if we put aside the necessity of entering the sordid political world of
horse-trading for the moment, perhaps it might also be profitable to determine
if there is anything else to by found in the Empyrean realm of abstract
principle that might be of service to us.

Generally, those who argue for abandoning social-welfare programs need to
undermine our human emotional sympathies for their beneficiaries while doing so.
So we are, subtly or otherwise, encouraged to think of these people as useless
layabouts, not unfortunates in poverty through no fault of their own.

Well, of course, the real world does involve a mixture of both things.

But there is a hidden false assumption about how the real world works that is
getting lost when they do that - one that holds the key to where the problem of
poverty really came from in the first place.

How come that the fraction of the population that was "poor" was so much bigger
in, say, 1931, than it was in, say, 1962?

Were people in 1931 *lazier* than people in 1962 on average?

A firm "No", accompanied by derisive laughter, is, of course the correct answer
to _that_ question.

Thus, while the poverty of some individuals may derive from their being lazy, or their having been lazy when studying in school, there is another cause of poverty that exists.

People willing to labor may lack *the opportunity to convert labor to wealth*.

There may not be *jobs to be had*. There may not be unoccupied land beyond a
frontier available for homesteading.

Or, as Karl Marx might have put it, these proletarians lack _access to capital_, which is what condemned them to be members of "the reserve army of the
unemployed".

Simply because Communism was an evil totalitarian ideology that killed
millions... is no more an excuse for ignoring this than the fact that Nazism was
an evil totalitarian ideology that killed millions means that the ancient
Egyptians invented calculus.

That either the right or the left has a monopoly on fatuous irrational
thinking... is a mistaken notion.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 01:08:27 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:47:57 PM UTC-6, Michael A Terrell wrote:
>
>> I've had MREs as well as their predecessors, while in the US Army.
>> Some of them were made before I was born, and they were disgusting.
>
>But, why, that's the whole idea! Why should lazy useless welfare layabouts eat
>better than the brave heroes facing peril defending our country?

Quadi, if Mr. Terrell has had MREs that were made before he was born,
he has to be a pretty young fellow. They didn't exist before 1980,
didn't go into general use until 1986, and are supposed to be disposed
of after 5 years (the Army being the Army, doesn't always happen of
course).

>Issues like cost and efficiency - and the fact that MREs are used only when and
>where they have to be used because of issues of logistics - are simply
>irrelevant.

So you would rather spend $30 a day to feed people the same meal that
soldiers in the field eat than $10 a day to feed them something that
(a) won't turn them into elephants if they are not active and (b) is
better suited to long term nutritional needs.

And you wonder why people think you're an idiot.

<the rest of your post is irrelevant to the issue of the suitability
of MRS as food for the poor and is trimmed>

[David Johnston]

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 8:40:34 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 18:36:26 -0700 (PDT), hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 12:28:46 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 04:30:26 -0700 (PDT), hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>

> >> >> ruling against him in a lawsuit might reduce the chances of his
> >> >> becoming President (he was not in office at the time), and so might
> >> >> prevent construction of this wall, therefore a judge of Mexican
> >> >> descent might have a conflict of interest when presiding over a case
> >> >> in which Trump is defendant.
> >> >

> >> >funny how it's only non-white people who can be affected by bias...
> >> >Alleging a judge has a conflict of interest because he's of mexican descent is racist.
> >>

> >> Nope. White people can be affected by bias too. But the wall is

> >> specific to Mexico. If Trump wanted to make a wall on the Canadian
> >> border and the judge was of Canadian descent the argument would be
> >> equally valid.
> >
> >Yes it would be equally valid...
> >Not at all.
>
> So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect a judge of Canadian
> descent to be biased but not a one of Mexican descent?
>

> >> >> This is a very different thing from saying that Mexicans can't be fair
> >> >> judges.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Claiming that mexicans are rapists etc?
> >> >>
> >> >> Read what he said. The whole quote. He didn't say that Mexicans are
> >> >> rapists, he said that some of the people Mexico "sends" are rapists. I
> >> >> think he has Mexico conflated with Cuba, which did at one point empty
> >> >> its prisons into the US.
> >> >>
> >> >

> >> >and that makes it completely different...
> >>
> >> >> >If he's not actually racist then he's an evil bastard who's willing to lie massively for power
> >> >>
> >> >> Whereas his opponents are willing to take any statement out of context
> >> >> to brand him a racist.
> >> >
> >> >His statements make that point without being taken out of context.
> >>
> >> And yet you do not provide the context and deny that it is relevant.
> >
> >Asking that a judge recuse himself because of his race is racist period.
>
> But it would be OK to ask a judge to do so under identical
> circumstances if the judge was a different ethnicity?

No it wouldn't be OK to ask a judge to recuse himself because he was anglo.

[Jay E. Morris]

On 10/27/2017 05:14 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> I'll bet that you have never even seen a MRE.  Or eaten one.  I've had
> several and solidly enjoyed them.  Much better than the old K rations.

Same here. But are you sure you meant K-rats? Production of those
stopped in 1948 IIRC. Late 40's anyway. Maybe you had C-rats?
Although the actual c-rat production stopped in 48 also the new Meal,
Combat, Individual (MCI) continued to be called c-rats by the troops.
Ate those for seven years. Oldest one of those I ever got was 1954 (old
as me!) and this was in 77-83.

If I got a chance to heat them I personally don't think there was a
terrible MCI. Unheated, beef slices & potatoes in gravy could be forced
down.

[Michael A Terrell]

J. Clarke wrote:

> Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:47:57 PM UTC-6, Michael A Terrell wrote:
>>
>>> I've had MREs as well as their predecessors, while in the US Army.
>>> Some of them were made before I was born, and they were disgusting.
>>
>> But, why, that's the whole idea! Why should lazy useless welfare
>> layabouts eat better than the brave heroes facing peril defending
>> our country?
>
> Quadi, if Mr. Terrell has had MREs that were made before he was born,
> he has to be a pretty young fellow. They didn't exist before 1980,
> didn't go into general use until 1986, and are supposed to be disposed
> of after 5 years (the Army being the Army, doesn't always happen of
> course).

They are sold as surplus, rather than being destroyed.


Read what I said. "as well as their predecessors, while in the US
Army." I served during the early '70s. Those rations were eaten during
cold weather survival training, and it was around -40°. Nothing but
cold, stale and crumbling crap, but they did include two sheets of
toilet paper that was closer to sandpaper and two dried out cigarettes
in every package.

We could have used the higher calorie MREs if they had existed at
the time, because we were burning a lot of calories just to keep from
dying from exposure. We built fires that we fed with entire pine trees.
You could stand two feet from the roaring fire, and barely feel the
heat. The trees were frozen, so you couldn't chop them down. We would
pick a tree with a three to four inch trunk, and kick it to snap it off
close to the ground. You could have 60' flames one minute, and ten
minutes later there were only cold ashes.

I ate around 5000 calories a day during the winter that I spent at
the US Army's Cold Weather Research Center at Ft. Greeley, Alaska.

The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.

>> Issues like cost and efficiency - and the fact that MREs are used
>> only when and where they have to be used because of issues of
>> logistics - are simply irrelevant.
>
> So you would rather spend $30 a day to feed people the same meal that
> soldiers in the field eat than $10 a day to feed them something that
> (a) won't turn them into elephants if they are not active and (b) is
> better suited to long term nutritional needs.
>
> And you wonder why people think you're an idiot.
>
> <the rest of your post is irrelevant to the issue of the suitability

> of MREs as food for the poor and is trimmed>

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:25:02 -0400, Michael A Terrell
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
>horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.

US Army MREs are not well thought of globally, though there's a
flourishing set of blogs recommending ways to make them standable. The
French and Brit army ones are remarkably good, worth seeking out if
you're a bit of a prepper - or even just a wild camper.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Networking is well understood and well standardized,
unfortunately not by the same people.

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:25:02 -0400, Michael A Terrell
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>J. Clarke wrote:
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:47:57 PM UTC-6, Michael A Terrell wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've had MREs as well as their predecessors, while in the US Army.
>>>> Some of them were made before I was born, and they were disgusting.
>>>
>>> But, why, that's the whole idea! Why should lazy useless welfare
>>> layabouts eat better than the brave heroes facing peril defending
>>> our country?
>>
>> Quadi, if Mr. Terrell has had MREs that were made before he was born,
>> he has to be a pretty young fellow. They didn't exist before 1980,
>> didn't go into general use until 1986, and are supposed to be disposed
>> of after 5 years (the Army being the Army, doesn't always happen of
>> course).
>
> They are sold as surplus, rather than being destroyed.

Check again. There is one case on record where a seller was _caught_
taking them from a dumpster. They are supposed to be disposed of, not
sold. Nonetheless Sgt. Bilko continues to be a problem--there are
soldiers who will steal them and sell them.

> Read what I said. "as well as their predecessors, while in the US
>Army." I served during the early '70s.

Then you never had an issue MRE or anything like it.

<discussion of ancient military foods snipped>

> The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
>horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.

Given to you buy who? Were they marked "US Government Property"? And
what did they have instead of peanut butter and crackers?

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

I'd always heard that some varieties are pretty good, others downright
nasty.

I never tried any; was never in the military (though I am a colonel in
the Kentucky Militia).



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer in the Tunnels of Terror.
See http://www.watt-evans.com/TomDerringerintheTunnelsofTerror.shtml

[Michael A Terrell]

Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:25:02 -0400, Michael A Terrell
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
>> horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.
>
> US Army MREs are not well thought of globally, though there's a
> flourishing set of blogs recommending ways to make them standable. The
> French and Brit army ones are remarkably good, worth seeking out if
> you're a bit of a prepper - or even just a wild camper.

My days of camping are long gone. The last time was that survival
training.

Living in the southeast, I keep food and water on hand for
emergencies, but I'm no 'the sky is falling' fanatic. :)

[Michael A Terrell]

I got a couple from another Veteran. I had the other food on hand. He
wanted to know what I thought of the MREs. He agreed that were crap.

[Michael A Terrell]

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:34:41 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:25:02 -0400, Michael A Terrell
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
>>> horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.
>>
>> Given to you buy who? Were they marked "US Government Property"? And
>> what did they have instead of peanut butter and crackers?
>
> I'd always heard that some varieties are pretty good, others downright
> nasty.
>
> I never tried any; was never in the military (though I am a colonel in
> the Kentucky Militia).

A 'Southern Fried, Kentucky Colonel'? I was born in Eastern
Kentucky, so I am a true Briarhopper. :)

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:13:25 -0400, Michael A Terrell

So where did he get them, and what did they have instead of the peanut
butter and crackers that you said would be preferable?

Hint--real MREs have peanut butter and crackers or something similar.

[Michael A Terrell]

Hint all you want. The couple I had had no peanut butter. Just the main
course in the self heating package. Some slimy vegetables is all that I
remember in one. I couldn't stomach them, and threw most of the crap
out. I had a food allergy to the other MRE, so I didn't eat it. That was
13 years ago. Can you remember all the details of what you had 13 years
ago, on any given date?

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 16:17:45 -0400, Michael A Terrell

So you had something that was handed to you that someone claimed was
an MRE, that does not meet the description of an MRE (for one thing,
there is no "self-heating package"--the heater is contained in the
main package but it is a separate item) and from that you're sure that
the ones that are issued are terrible.

I can't remember all the details of something that I ate 13 years ago
but I would not make sweeping generalizations based on that experience
with a suspect sample of 1 either.

[Lynn McGuire]

All of the MREs that I have seen in the last 15 years had crackers and
peanut butter or cheese spread in them. If yours did not, they were not
MREs.
http://www.mreinfo.com/mres/mre-menus/all-mre-menus/

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

I sorry to hear that you are disabled now. That sucks. I am glad that
your prepping worked for you. You are not the person that I am
concerned about. I want the government to stash food locally for the
people who do not prep. And, people need to know where to go.

It sounds like you only have yourself to take care of. I've got more
people to cover, the wife and I, our disabled daughter, and potentially
our son, should he be able to leave his home inside Houston and join us.
I've got a few cases of MREs and a lot of canned food to cover us in
case we get a Cat 5 hurricane through Houston.

I'm hoping that my house survives the possible Cat 5 hurricane. After
all, I am 40 miles inland. But the resulting damage in the Houston area
will be apocalyptic (see the recent Rockport, Texas photos from Harvey).
We may be isolated in our house for four to twelve weeks without
infrastructure and blocked roads. It will take time to get everything
back into service. Plus, there are the neighbors.

BTW, we use our bottled water continuously. We go through 3 to 4 cases
a week at the house and turn it over based on the purchase date. We are
now drinking the water that I bought back in March of 2017. BTW2, I use
a dolly to move three cases at a time into the house from the detached
garage.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 10/28/2017 11:57 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:34:41 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 13:25:02 -0400, Michael A Terrell
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The MREs were given to me in 2004, after a hurricane. They tasted
>>> horrible. I preferred a cold can of SPAM or peanut butter and some crackers.
>>
>> Given to you buy who? Were they marked "US Government Property"? And
>> what did they have instead of peanut butter and crackers?
>
> I'd always heard that some varieties are pretty good, others downright
> nasty.
>
> I never tried any; was never in the military (though I am a colonel in
> the Kentucky Militia).
>

Isn't everyone in the Kentucky Militia a colonel? :)


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

[Jay E. Morris]

On 10/28/2017 04:07 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> All of the MREs that I have seen in the last 15 years had crackers and
> peanut butter or cheese spread in them.  If yours did not, they were not
> MREs.
> http://www.mreinfo.com/mres/mre-menus/all-mre-menus/
>
> Lynn

I'm guessing he wasn't given the whole MRE, just the entree packet.

[Titus G]

On 29/10/17 10:07, Lynn McGuire wrote:
snip

> All of the MREs that I have seen in the last 15 years had crackers and
> peanut butter or cheese spread in them.  If yours did not, they were not
> MREs.
>    http://www.mreinfo.com/mres/mre-menus/all-mre-menus/

Out of curiosity, I followed that link. I have not eaten anything
resembling this for over 20 years when I was very disappointed with the
taste and texture of freeze dried hiking food but not with its weight
and convenience.
It was interesting to see many meals without peanut butter, to see the
emphasise on labelling some items as Trans Fat Free and they certainly
read as appealing menus.

[Michael A Terrell]

Do whatever you want. I didn't like it, and I had trouble keeping
down the little that I did eat.

[Michael A Terrell]

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> All of the MREs that I have seen in the last 15 years had crackers and
> peanut butter or cheese spread in them. If yours did not, they were not
> MREs.
> http://www.mreinfo.com/mres/mre-menus/all-mre-menus/

I only took the main item, and gave the rest back before I prepared
the crap. I didn't pay attention to what else was there. I don't know
when it was made, and it no longer matters.