"Touched by the Gods" by Lawrence Watt-Evans

[Gene Wirchenko]

Back cover blurb, par. 1: "When the baby Malledd is born to an
ordinary family in a small country town [actually village], the
oracles name him the true chosen Champion of the Domdur Empire. Should
the Empire find itself at war, Malledd will be the one to lead them to
victory by the gods' decree."

But Malledd does not want the job.

Not surprisingly, said war happens.

What a great read!

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[William December Starr]

In article <92o1ia1gnp89cljdf...@4ax.com>,

Note to Lawrence: maybe you shouldn't have used a name that looks so
much like Mallard at first glance.

-- wds

[Robert Bannister]

Love a duck!
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 5 Apr 2015 18:45:17 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

A little late now.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[David Johnston]

My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
have I heard more of a bad guy name."

[William December Starr]

In article <mft4il$d17$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> said:

> My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"?
> Rarely have I heard more of a bad guy name."

Still can't compete with "Decepticons" though.

("Have you guys ever thought of going into Public Relations?")

-- wds

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.

But he's not a bad guy; are you looking at the "Mal" element?

[Richard Hershberger]

On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 11:39:14 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On 4/5/2015 4:45 PM, William December Starr wrote:
> >> In article <92o1ia1gnp89cljdf...@4ax.com>,
> >> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> said:
> >>
> >>> Back cover blurb, par. 1: "When the baby Malledd is born to an
> >>> ordinary family in a small country town [actually village], the
> >>> oracles name him the true chosen Champion of the Domdur Empire. Should
> >>> the Empire find itself at war, Malledd will be the one to lead them to
> >>> victory by the gods' decree."
> >>>
> >>> But Malledd does not want the job.
> >>>
> >>> Not surprisingly, said war happens.
> >>>
> >>> What a great read!
> >>
> >> Note to Lawrence: maybe you shouldn't have used a name that looks so
> >> much like Mallard at first glance.
> >
> >My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
> >have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>
> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.

Are there internal reasons in the book to assume Welsh orthography?

Richard R. Hershberger

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
> wrote:
>
>>My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>
> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.

Well, I'd have wanted it to be pronounced with a voiceless 'l' and a
voiced 'th'.

--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

[pete...@gmail.com]

I dunno, but I'd also guess Welsh, barring any further info. The terminal
'dd' doesn't see much use in other contexts.

pt

[William December Starr]

In article <49da8fa6-5661-4af0...@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com said:

> Richard Hershberger wrote:
>
>> Are there internal reasons in the book to assume Welsh orthography?
>
> I dunno, but I'd also guess Welsh, barring any further info. The
> terminal 'dd' doesn't see much use in other contexts.

Just for laughs:

% lk dd$
add
dadenhudd
dodd
gorsedd
Lludd
misadd
mudd
Nudd
odd
readd
redd
rodd
rudd
sudd
superadd
trefgordd
unadd

-- wds

[James Silverton]

On 4/6/2015 1:12 PM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>> have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>>
>> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.
>
> Well, I'd have wanted it to be pronounced with a voiceless 'l' and a
> voiced 'th'.
>

It might do no harm to indicate the wanted pronunciation: some
fictitious reference book perhaps. I tend to use only US ASCII sounds
even mentally tho' I'm aware of Welsh "dd". How about "Llanddudno"

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Nope; there just isn't any other phonetic reason to use a double D.

Most of the names in that book are vaguely Slavic-sounding.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:12:51 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
wrote:

>begin fnord
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>>have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>>
>> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.
>
>Well, I'd have wanted it to be pronounced with a voiceless 'l' and a
>voiced 'th'.

Ah, I wasn't going that far. The double L was just to keep the A
short.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 14:54:52 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 08:57:56 -0700 (PDT), Richard Hershberger
><rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 11:39:14 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 4/5/2015 4:45 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>> >> In article <92o1ia1gnp89cljdf...@4ax.com>,
>>> >> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> said:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Back cover blurb, par. 1: "When the baby Malledd is born to an
>>> >>> ordinary family in a small country town [actually village], the
>>> >>> oracles name him the true chosen Champion of the Domdur Empire. Should
>>> >>> the Empire find itself at war, Malledd will be the one to lead them to
>>> >>> victory by the gods' decree."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> But Malledd does not want the job.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Not surprisingly, said war happens.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> What a great read!
>>> >>
>>> >> Note to Lawrence: maybe you shouldn't have used a name that looks so
>>> >> much like Mallard at first glance.
>>> >
>>> >My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>> >have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>>>
>>> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.
>>
>>Are there internal reasons in the book to assume Welsh orthography?
>
>Nope; there just isn't any other phonetic reason to use a double D.

Actually, that's not true. The other reason for a double D is so it
won't look like a past-tense verb. "Malled" is not a good name. But
I did pronounce it with a voiced TH when talking to myself. If
readers don't want to do that, or don't know Welsh pronunciation, I'm
fine with that; I don't get obsessive about stuff like that.

(You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
bother pronouncing it correctly.)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <mfuj94$ncj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed,_Edd_n_Eddy
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

> On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:12:51 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
> wrote:
>>
>>Well, I'd have wanted it to be pronounced with a voiceless 'l' and a
>>voiced 'th'.
>
> Ah, I wasn't going that far. The double L was just to keep the A
> short.

If the kitten I just adopted's shelter name weren't so fitting, I'd
have given her a name with an ejective consonant in it - in part, just
to drive people (and the vet's computer) nuts.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
> bother pronouncing it correctly.)

How else would one pronounce 'bh', but the voiced bilabial fricative?

[John F. Eldredge]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:39:03 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On 4/5/2015 4:45 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>> In article <92o1ia1gnp89cljdf...@4ax.com>,
>>> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> said:
>>>
>>>> Back cover blurb, par. 1: "When the baby Malledd is born to an
>>>> ordinary family in a small country town [actually village], the
>>>> oracles name him the true chosen Champion of the Domdur Empire.
>>>> Should the Empire find itself at war, Malledd will be the one to lead
>>>> them to victory by the gods' decree."
>>>>
>>>> But Malledd does not want the job.
>>>>
>>>> Not surprisingly, said war happens.
>>>>
>>>> What a great read!
>>>
>>> Note to Lawrence: maybe you shouldn't have used a name that looks so
>>> much like Mallard at first glance.
>>
>>My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>
> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.
>
> But he's not a bad guy; are you looking at the "Mal" element?

Well, if pronounced "Malleth", it sounds like someone with a lisp trying
to say "Malice".

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m21tjwh...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>
>How else would one pronounce 'bh', but the voiced bilabial fricative?

Well, for one thing, it could be the voiced bilabial stop with an
aspiration after it, as heard (e.g.) in Hindi. I remember back
in the old old days when I was a Linguistics major, one of my
professors describing a conversation with a friend who had just
returned from India, who said, "They really pronounce it that
way! They really do, I've heard it!"

The voiced bilabial fricative you describe was written with a
Greek beta, back in the day. (I don't know what's done nowadays,
I was a Linguistics major fifty years ago.) It's an allophone of
the /b/ phoneme in Spanish.

Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces it?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m26198h...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:12:51 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Well, I'd have wanted it to be pronounced with a voiceless 'l' and a
>>>voiced 'th'.
>>
>> Ah, I wasn't going that far. The double L was just to keep the A
>> short.
>
>If the kitten I just adopted's shelter name weren't so fitting, I'd
>have given her a name with an ejective consonant in it - in part, just
>to drive people (and the vet's computer) nuts.

Now, "ejective" is a new term to me (as I said, it's been fifty
years). Could you describe it? (Is it the same as what we used
to call a glottalized stop, in which the glottis and some other
mouth part close simultaneously?)

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> I remember back in the old old days when I was a Linguistics major,
> one of my professors describing a conversation with a friend who had
> just returned from India, who said, "They really pronounce it that
> way! They really do, I've heard it!"

I had a moment like that re retroflex consonants, listening to a friend
of mine who's _from_ India.

I like to joke that the first time I ever used my degree was when I
recognized an ejective consonant in the wild, watching a movie.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> In article <m26198h...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>
>>If the kitten I just adopted's shelter name weren't so fitting, I'd
>>have given her a name with an ejective consonant in it - in part, just
>>to drive people (and the vet's computer) nuts.
>
> Now, "ejective" is a new term to me (as I said, it's been fifty
> years). Could you describe it? (Is it the same as what we used
> to call a glottalized stop, in which the glottis and some other
> mouth part close simultaneously?)

I think so. Navajo's full of 'em.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:39:03 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On 4/5/2015 4:45 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>> In article <92o1ia1gnp89cljdf...@4ax.com>,
>>> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> said:
>>>
>>>> Back cover blurb, par. 1: "When the baby Malledd is born to an
>>>> ordinary family in a small country town [actually village], the
>>>> oracles name him the true chosen Champion of the Domdur Empire. Should
>>>> the Empire find itself at war, Malledd will be the one to lead them to
>>>> victory by the gods' decree."
>>>>
>>>> But Malledd does not want the job.
>>>>
>>>> Not surprisingly, said war happens.
>>>>
>>>> What a great read!
>>>
>>> Note to Lawrence: maybe you shouldn't have used a name that looks so
>>> much like Mallard at first glance.
>>
>>My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>
>Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.

Specifically "Malleth" with the "th" of "the", right?

>But he's not a bad guy; are you looking at the "Mal" element?

Maybe, "Mall" if he has strong shopping preferences.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <m21tjwh...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>begin fnord
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>
>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>>
>>How else would one pronounce 'bh', but the voiced bilabial fricative?
>
>Well, for one thing, it could be the voiced bilabial stop with an
>aspiration after it, as heard (e.g.) in Hindi. I remember back
>in the old old days when I was a Linguistics major, one of my
>professors describing a conversation with a friend who had just
>returned from India, who said, "They really pronounce it that
>way! They really do, I've heard it!"
>
>The voiced bilabial fricative you describe was written with a
>Greek beta, back in the day. (I don't know what's done nowadays,
>I was a Linguistics major fifty years ago.) It's an allophone of
>the /b/ phoneme in Spanish.
>
>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces it?

Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
U.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 7 Apr 2015 00:13:47 GMT, "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com>
wrote:

Wrong TH. TH as in THE, not as in THIN. Doesn't sound like a lisp
that way.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
>

>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?

>
> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
> U.

Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
separately, not as a diphthong".

[1] technically including English, though it was already vestigial
when I was a kid - you used to see it in "cooperate", "coordinate"
etc. I only ever encountered it in the wild in small-town Illinois.

[Greg Goss]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
>wrote:

>>My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
>>have I heard more of a bad guy name."
>
>Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.

A former friend of mine named one of his sons Dafydd. He pronounced
it with a hint of the "D" or "T" sound before heading into the "th".

Considering he went through elementary school as "Daffy", I'm
surprised that he (when last I had contact with that family) seemed to
be the only sane one in that generation.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:

> A former friend of mine named one of his sons Dafydd.

Hopefully his last name wasn't "Uck".

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?
>>
>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
>> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
>> U.
>
>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>separately, not as a diphthong".

Then it would be not an umlaut, but a diaresis. :)

It also gets used at whiles to indicate that a final 'e' is
pronounced, not silent.

>
>[1] technically including English, though it was already vestigial
>when I was a kid - you used to see it in "cooperate", "coordinate"
>etc. I only ever encountered it in the wild in small-town Illinois.

There's a line in one of Angela Thirkell's novels, in which we
first meet the continuing character Noel Merton, a lawyer. He is
asked, "Do you write your name with those two little dots over
the e?" and he answers "It's on my baptismal certificate, so
theoretically I ought to, but I have to sign my name several
hundred times a day, so I don't bother." (Or words to that
effect, I don't have a copy of the book at present.)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <72o6ia5fm7kn2mmvt...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Unless the lisper was trying to pronounce a Z.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:56:25 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:nMEvy...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Now, "ejective" is a new term to me (as I said, it's been
> fifty years). Could you describe it? (Is it the same
> as what we used to call a glottalized stop, in which the
> glottis and some other mouth part close simultaneously?)

It needn’t be a stop: it can be a fricative or afficate as
well, though it’s necessarily voiceless. Yes, it’s
pronounced with simultaneous closure of the glottis, so
that when the oral articulators separate, you get a very
noticeable burst of air -- most noticeable, of course, in
the case of stops, and least so in the case of (the rare)
ejective fricatives. The Wikipedia page at

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejective_consonant>

is quite decent and has a bunch of sound samples.

Ejectives are egressive glottalics; the implosivs are
ingressive glottalics. These are sometimes said to be
glottalized, but nowadays the term usually means something
a bit different that can apply also to vowels and
sonorants. To quote

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottalization>

(with most IPA removed):

Glottalization varies along three parameters, all of
which are continuums. The degree of glottalization
varies from none (modal voice) through stiff voice
and creaky voice to full glottal closure (glottal
reinforcement or glottal replacement, described
below). The timing also varies, from a simultaneous
single segment to an onset or coda to a sequence such
as [?d] or [d?]. Full or partial closure of the glottis
also allows glottalic airstream mechanisms to operate,
producing ejective or implosive consonants; implosives
may themselves have modal, stiff, or creaky voice.

Many U.S. speakers have glottal reinforcement, with a
glottal closure either immediately before or simultaneous
with an oral stop, e.g., in <fi[?k]tion>, <ca[?t]>, etc.
In Estuary English and some Scottish dialects many speakers
have full glottal replacement in many words, [?] completely
replacing an oral stop.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 17:39:50 -0600, Steve Coltrin
<spco...@omcl.org> wrote
in<news:m21tjwh...@kelutral.omcl.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> begin fnord
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_
>> don't usually bother pronouncing it correctly.)

> How else would one pronounce 'bh', but the voiced
> bilabial fricative?

In Irish it’s [w] or palatalized [v] unless it follows a
stressed vowel, with which it forms a diphthong [ǝu]. In
Hindi and Sanskrit it’s a breathy-voiced stop, often
incorrectly described as an aspirated voiced stop.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin
<spco...@omcl.org> wrote
in<news:m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> begin fnord
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com
>> (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>>> Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces
>>> [Bheleu]?

>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the
>> final diphthong that's the tricky part. Technically,
>> there should be an umlaut on the U.

> Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two
> vowels are pronounced separately, not as a diphthong".

But then it’s a diæresis, not an umlaut.

> [1] technically including English, though it was already
> vestigial when I was a kid - you used to see it in
> "cooperate", "coordinate" etc. I only ever encountered
> it in the wild in small-town Illinois.

I’ve used it, mostly with <coördinate>, though not in
recent years.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>

wrote:

>begin fnord
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?
>>
>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
>> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
>> U.
>
>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>separately, not as a diphthong".

No, that's a dieresis, not an umlaut. Yeah, they're each two dots
above a vowel, but they aren't the same thing. Umlauts evolved from
an old German script e, while so far as I know diereses were always
two dots.

>[1] technically including English, though it was already vestigial
>when I was a kid - you used to see it in "cooperate", "coordinate"
>etc. I only ever encountered it in the wild in small-town Illinois.

--

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 14:30:46 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

But there's no Z in "malice."

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:41:43 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin
><spco...@omcl.org> wrote
>in<news:m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> begin fnord
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
>>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com
>>> (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>> Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces
>>>> [Bheleu]?
>
>>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the
>>> final diphthong that's the tricky part. Technically,
>>> there should be an umlaut on the U.
>
>> Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two
>> vowels are pronounced separately, not as a diphthong".
>
>But then it’s a diæresis, not an umlaut.

Ooh, a ligature! I don't even know how to do those here. Cool.

>> [1] technically including English, though it was already
>> vestigial when I was a kid - you used to see it in
>> "cooperate", "coordinate" etc. I only ever encountered
>> it in the wild in small-town Illinois.
>
>I’ve used it, mostly with <coördinate>, though not in
>recent years.

I've used it in "cooperate," and had a copy editor remove it.

[William December Starr]

In article <4sl5iahmmvvgv1kct...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't
> usually bother pronouncing it correctly.)

Let's face it: a name like "Bheleu" *deserves* to have things
done to it.

-- wds

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> In article <m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>
>>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>>separately, not as a diphthong".
>
> Then it would be not an umlaut, but a diaresis. :)

Well, if we want to get real fussy like, diaresis is a typographical
sign, and umlaut is a vowel alteration that it sometimes signifies.

> It also gets used at whiles to indicate that a final 'e' is
> pronounced, not silent.

Uh, silent 'e' is a vowelless diphthong, yeah, that's it!

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:

I'm now imagining a comic book villain named Commander Z bursting into
the frame, shouting "THERE IS NOW!!!".

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

"This? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl..."

[David Johnston]

The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 1:50:37 AM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
> > A former friend of mine named one of his sons Dafydd.
>
> Hopefully his last name wasn't "Uck".
>

You're dedd...picable!

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 1:40:58 PM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 14:30:46 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>In article <72o6ia5fm7kn2mmvt...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
> >>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Wrong TH. TH as in THE, not as in THIN. Doesn't sound like a lisp
> >>>that way.
> >>
> >>Unless the lisper was trying to pronounce a Z.
> >
> > But there's no Z in "malice."
>
> I'm now imagining a comic book villain named Commander Z bursting into
> the frame, shouting "THERE IS NOW!!!".
>
>

If Image or the like didn't name a character "Malize" in the 90s, I
am astounded. Maybe "Malizz" or "Malyzz."

Kevin R

[Gene Wirchenko]

On 7 Apr 2015 13:34:16 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

ObSF: Yeah, let's destroy it!

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2twwrd...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> In article <m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>>>separately, not as a diphthong".
>>
>> Then it would be not an umlaut, but a diaresis. :)
>
>Well, if we want to get real fussy like, diaresis is a typographical
>sign, and umlaut is a vowel alteration that it sometimes signifies.
>
>> It also gets used at whiles to indicate that a final 'e' is
>> pronounced, not silent.
>
>Uh, silent 'e' is a vowelless diphthong, yeah, that's it!

/shrug

It's a means of indicating that the preceding vowel is "long"
(actually a vowel plus offglide). I have been trying to explain
this to my seven-year-old grandson who's supposed to be learning
it. I played him the Tom Lehrer song on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91BQqdNOUxs

Can we compare it to the explanation my husband (a programmer,
not a linguist) made about the letter 'h' in Irish, that it
serves as a destructive backspace?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <0d38iadserm9uucts...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
>wrote:
>
>>begin fnord
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?
>>>
>>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
>>> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
>>> U.
>>
>>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>>separately, not as a diphthong".
>
>No, that's a dieresis, not an umlaut. Yeah, they're each two dots
>above a vowel, but they aren't the same thing. Umlauts evolved from
>an old German script e,

There used to be (damfino if it still is) an American beer called
Burgermeister, which was written with the tiny e above the u.
And way way back in the early days of television there was a
commercial for the stuff, in which the major letters appeared one
by one, and then (to the strains of Flight of the Bumblebee) the
little e came and buzzed around before settling on the u.

while so far as I know diereses were always
>two dots.

If you know anything about the history of the dieresis, you know
more than I do.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <gk38ia1a1hh507c9v...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

I haven't been able to use it since I started reading USENET back
in the eighties, because I've got this bog-standard no-diacritics
character set.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 06:50:08 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
in<news:nMH6z...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <0d38iadserm9uucts...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

[...]

>> while so far as I know diereses were always two dots.

> If you know anything about the history of the dieresis,
> you know more than I do.

It goes back to Hellenistic Greek. It was originally
called a <tre:ma> 'perforation, orifice, pip (e.g., on a
die)' from its shape, and the term is still sometimes used.
<Diaeresis> is from Greek <diairesis> 'a dividing, a
separation', from its function; I’m not sure how old that
terminology is.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <0d38iadserm9uucts...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> >On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>begin fnord
> >>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?
> >>>
> >>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
> >>> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
> >>> U.
> >>
> >>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
> >>separately, not as a diphthong".
> >
> >No, that's a dieresis, not an umlaut. Yeah, they're each two dots
> >above a vowel, but they aren't the same thing. Umlauts evolved from
> >an old German script e,
>
> There used to be (damfino if it still is) an American beer called
> Burgermeister, which was written with the tiny e above the u.

Like zo?

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/83035186851793598/

or

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e9/15/6c/e9156c0230578ba5b8c252d39efdc873.jpg

Circa 1956. Burgie was swallowed up by Schlitz, and as far as I
can tell didn't make it past 1971.

SF buildings website has pics of the brewery.

http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/13/shotgunning_somas_brewing_history_with_burgie_beer.php

> And way way back in the early days of television there was a
> commercial for the stuff, in which the major letters appeared one
> by one, and then (to the strains of Flight of the Bumblebee) the
> little e came and buzzed around before settling on the u.
>
> while so far as I know diereses were always
> >two dots.
>
> If you know anything about the history of the dieresis, you know
> more than I do.
>
> --

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <7c7d283c-2118-48cd...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article
><0d38iadserm9uucts...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:59 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>begin fnord
>> >>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:54:56 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>Would the author care to tell us how he pronounces [Bheleu]?
>> >>>
>> >>> Oh, the BH is a voiced bilabial fricative; it's the final diphthong
>> >>> that's the tricky part. Technically, there should be an umlaut on the
>> >>> U.
>> >>
>> >>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>> >>separately, not as a diphthong".
>> >
>> >No, that's a dieresis, not an umlaut. Yeah, they're each two dots
>> >above a vowel, but they aren't the same thing. Umlauts evolved from
>> >an old German script e,
>>
>> There used to be (damfino if it still is) an American beer called
>> Burgermeister, which was written with the tiny e above the u.
>
>Like zo?
>
>https://www.pinterest.com/pin/83035186851793598/

Um ... I don't get any picture with that, just text.
>or
>
>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e9/15/6c/e9156c0230578ba5b8c252d39efdc873.jpg

And that has lots of pictures and history, but not the logo with
the tiny e.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:45:01 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
in<news:nMI9n...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <7c7d283c-2118-48cd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy
>> J Heydt wrote:

[...]

>>> There used to be (damfino if it still is) an American beer called
>>> Burgermeister, which was written with the tiny e above the u.

>>Like zo?

>>https://www.pinterest.com/pin/83035186851793598/

> Um ... I don't get any picture with that, just text.

It has an appropriate picture. Do you get this one (which
is the same picture)?

<https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e9/15/6c/e9156c0230578ba5b8c252d39efdc873.jpg>

[...]

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <zkson02zxvh1.1i...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:45:01 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>in<news:nMI9n...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> In article <7c7d283c-2118-48cd...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy
>>> J Heydt wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> There used to be (damfino if it still is) an American beer called
>>>> Burgermeister, which was written with the tiny e above the u.
>
>>>Like zo?
>
>>>https://www.pinterest.com/pin/83035186851793598/
>
>> Um ... I don't get any picture with that, just text.
>
>It has an appropriate picture. Do you get this one (which
>is the same picture)?
>
><https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e9/15/6c/e9156c0230578ba5b8c252d39efdc873.jpg>

Ah, yes. That's the word. And I also saw that picture on the
first link now, but before I got only text.

/shrug

As all here know, my google-fu is at about the kindergarten
level.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> Can we compare it to the explanation my husband (a programmer,
> not a linguist) made about the letter 'h' in Irish, that it
> serves as a destructive backspace?

It's Complicated. Sometimes it delets a phoneme, other times it turns
a stop into an approximant, or a fricative, or even _a vowel_. I am
convinced the language's orthography is a practical joke on the
Sasanach.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2twwqg...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> Can we compare it to the explanation my husband (a programmer,
>> not a linguist) made about the letter 'h' in Irish, that it
>> serves as a destructive backspace?
>
>It's Complicated. Sometimes it delets a phoneme, other times it turns
>a stop into an approximant, or a fricative, or even _a vowel_. I am
>convinced the language's orthography is a practical joke on the
>Sasanach.
>

Or else they just felt like it.

"It isn't true to say that everyone went home from Chaucer's
funeral and said 'Now we're all going to shift our vowels a
quarter-turn counter-clockwise. It just looks like it."
-- Jo Walton (approximate, from memory

"Language drifts down time on a current of its own making."
-- Edward Sapir

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:00:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m2twwqg...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
> >begin fnord
> >djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >
> >> Can we compare it to the explanation my husband (a programmer,
> >> not a linguist) made about the letter 'h' in Irish, that it
> >> serves as a destructive backspace?
> >
> >It's Complicated. Sometimes it delets a phoneme, other times it turns
> >a stop into an approximant, or a fricative, or even _a vowel_. I am
> >convinced the language's orthography is a practical joke on the
> >Sasanach.
> >
> Or else they just felt like it.
>
> "It isn't true to say that everyone went home from Chaucer's
> funeral and said 'Now we're all going to shift our vowels a
> quarter-turn counter-clockwise. It just looks like it."
> -- Jo Walton (approximate, from memory
>
> "Language drifts down time on a current of its own making."
> -- Edward Sapir
>

Don't forget, regarding Gaeilge, there's modern spelling, and the
older version, used before the mid-20th C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography#Spelling_reform

Kevin R

(Tá mé ach cúpla focal)

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> In article <m2twwqg...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>begin fnord
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>>> Can we compare it to the explanation my husband (a programmer,
>>> not a linguist) made about the letter 'h' in Irish, that it
>>> serves as a destructive backspace?
>>
>>It's Complicated. Sometimes it delets a phoneme, other times it turns
>>a stop into an approximant, or a fricative, or even _a vowel_. I am
>>convinced the language's orthography is a practical joke on the
>>Sasanach.
>>
> Or else they just felt like it.

I understand it makes sense if you grok the language. I'm a hell of a
long way from that.

As a callback to upthread, originally instead of 'h' you would superscript
the preceding character with a single dot.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2twwrd...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> In article <m2r3rwa...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>Ah, except in some languages[1] that means "these two vowels are pronounced
>>>separately, not as a diphthong".
>>
>> Then it would be not an umlaut, but a diaresis. :)
>
>Well, if we want to get real fussy like, diaresis is a typographical
>sign, and umlaut is a vowel alteration that it sometimes signifies.
>
>> It also gets used at whiles to indicate that a final 'e' is
>> pronounced, not silent.
>
>Uh, silent 'e' is a vowelless diphthong, yeah, that's it!

Getting back to the dieresis, there's an article in _Slate_ today
about a copy-editor:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2015/04/comma_queen_memoir_mary_norris_between_you_and_me_reviewed.html

which I have not yet finished reading, but I wanted to quote a
sentence given pride of place in a sidegar:

"Norris reveals that the famed diaeresis almost went extinct in
1978, but the person coördinating its elimination passed
away."

The o with dieresis came out looking bizarre in my editor, but
the rest of you may be able to read it. :)

[James Silverton]

I use Thunderbird running under Windows 7 and ALT-0246 produces ö for
me. Did it transmit? Not that I usually bother with decorations on
letters when writing English.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[William December Starr]

In article <b8f1803c-d350-4427...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> said:

> Don't forget, regarding Gaeilge, there's modern spelling, and
> the older version, used before the mid-20th C.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography#Spelling_reform

Took me a moment to figure out that "mid-20th C" wasn't a
technical-linguistic term for some specific application or
pronunciation of the letter 'c'.

-- wds

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 6 April 2015 20:02:01 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 14:54:52 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 08:57:56 -0700 (PDT), Richard Hershberger
> ><rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >>On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 11:39:14 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 23:12:43 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
> >>> wrote

> >>> >My thought was "Malledd? Wouldn't that be pronounced "Malleth"? Rarely
> >>> >have I heard more of a bad guy name."
> >>>
> >>> Yes, it would! Congratulations -- hardly anyone gets that.
> >>

> >>Are there internal reasons in the book to assume Welsh orthography?
> >
> >Nope; there just isn't any other phonetic reason to use a double D.
>
> Actually, that's not true. The other reason for a double D is so it
> won't look like a past-tense verb. "Malled" is not a good name.

It's a tiny misprint away from "Malted". If I had a library
copy and a pen, the temptation -

Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
In That Context.

Apparently the Marvel Comics bad-Robocop "Deathlok"
now comes in a teenage girl variety that they called
Deathlokette, which sounds like goth jewellery.

If you're British there's this guy.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timmy_Mallett>

> But
> I did pronounce it with a voiced TH when talking to myself. If
> readers don't want to do that, or don't know Welsh pronunciation, I'm
> fine with that; I don't get obsessive about stuff like that.

>
> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
> bother pronouncing it correctly.)

Too true, Blue.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
>there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
>Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
>In That Context.

It may be worth mentioning that Malledd's parents are Hmar and Anva.

>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>
>Too true, Blue.

Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
time.

[William December Starr]

In article <j4sdka57k2isgf9s6...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>> Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
>> there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
>> Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
>> In That Context.
>
> It may be worth mentioning that Malledd's parents are Hmar and Anva.

In general, please don't do that. Thank you.

-- wds

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 4 May 2015 06:50:20 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

I've done that sort of thing a lot over the course of my career,
actually. I usually try not to be so obvious about it, though.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/4/15 12:09 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
>> there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
>> Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
>> In That Context.
>
> It may be worth mentioning that Malledd's parents are Hmar and Anva.
>
>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>>
>> Too true, Blue.
>
> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
> time.

So is it something more like B'Hayloo? (with B' being a B-sound with a
very short pause between it and the H?)
I always pronounced it as B'HeeLeeoo in my head.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 05 May 2015 07:42:40 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 5/4/15 12:09 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>>>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>>>
>>> Too true, Blue.
>>
>> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
>> time.
>
> So is it something more like B'Hayloo? (with B' being a B-sound with a
>very short pause between it and the H?)
> I always pronounced it as B'HeeLeeoo in my head.

BH like the Castillian Spanish V, E like the German E (in an accented
syllable), L like our ordinary L, and EU is a diphthong we don't have
in standard English (or any other language I can think of that you
might know), but is more or less the sound in mid-20th-century
Brooklynese that's usually incorrectly represented as "oi," as in "My
brother Oil, who's in the earl business." It's not quite an O-umlaut,
but it's in that neighborhood.

See, I have this bad habit of giving my invented languages their own
phonetic structures rather than just borrowing them from existing
languages. (Though if you want to get Domdur names right, use a
Russian accent and you'll be close. Even though Russian doesn't have
HM or DD.)

Eramman is probably the hardest to pronounce. Ethsharitic is pretty
straightforward, though the TH sound gives people from several of the
Small Kingdoms trouble.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 5/6/15 2:27 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 05 May 2015 07:42:40 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/4/15 12:09 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
>>>>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
>>>>
>>>> Too true, Blue.
>>>
>>> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
>>> time.
>>
>> So is it something more like B'Hayloo? (with B' being a B-sound with a
>> very short pause between it and the H?)
>> I always pronounced it as B'HeeLeeoo in my head.
>
> BH like the Castillian Spanish V, E like the German E (in an accented
> syllable), L like our ordinary L, and EU is a diphthong we don't have
> in standard English (or any other language I can think of that you
> might know), but is more or less the sound in mid-20th-century
> Brooklynese that's usually incorrectly represented as "oi," as in "My
> brother Oil, who's in the earl business." It's not quite an O-umlaut,
> but it's in that neighborhood.

Funky.

>
> See, I have this bad habit of giving my invented languages their own
> phonetic structures rather than just borrowing them from existing
> languages. (Though if you want to get Domdur names right, use a
> Russian accent and you'll be close. Even though Russian doesn't have
> HM or DD.)
>

That's not that bad. Ancient Sauran on Zarathan includes sounds that
really can't be pronounced easily at all by humans since they're
designed for things that aren't. The language has single symbols for
sounds that in English have to be represented with multiple letters and
odd typography for an approximation of the intended sound.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Well, sure. That happens with human languages, too.

There is a single Russian letter that requires four letters to
approximate in English -- and seven in German. (It's "shch" in
English, "schtsch" in German.)

There are distinctions in Chinese that most Westerners can't even
hear, such as the difference between CH and Q (which most Americans
just hear as CH), or X and SH (which most Americans just hear as SH).
(In the old Wade-Giles system they used HS instead of X, but the
distinction was there.)

And don't even start on vowels.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 06 May 2015 02:27:35 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<l...@sff.net> wrote
in<news:1bcjka5sg88btgiad...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Tue, 05 May 2015 07:42:40 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> On 5/4/15 12:09 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert
>>> Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>>>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even
>>>>> _I_ don't usually bother pronouncing it correctly.)

>>>> Too true, Blue.

>>> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu,"
>>> yeah, all the time.

>> So is it something more like B'Hayloo? (with B' being a
>> B-sound with a very short pause between it and the H?)

>> I always pronounced it as B'HeeLeeoo in my head.

> BH like the Castillian Spanish V, E like the German E (in
> an accented syllable), L like our ordinary L, and EU is
> a diphthong we don't have in standard English (or any
> other language I can think of that you might know), but
> is more or less the sound in mid-20th-century
> Brooklynese that's usually incorrectly represented as
> "oi," as in "My brother Oil, who's in the earl
> business." It's not quite an O-umlaut, but it's in that
> neighborhood.

Northern Welsh [ǝɨ]? As I understand it, Southern Welsh
replaces it with the Brooklynese [ǝɪ].

It probably won’t help much, but for those who don’t read
IPA, [ɨ], the second element of the Northern Welsh
diphthong, is a high central unrounded vowel that a some
Americans have in the first syllable of <children>. Some
have it in the second syllable of <judges>. If you don’t
have quite the same vowel in the second syllables of
<Russias> (as in ‘Tsar of all the Russias’) and <rushes>,
you most likely have [ǝ] in the former and [ɨ] in the
latter.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 06 May 2015 14:07:47 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<l...@sff.net> wrote
in<news:fqlkka5vfg78d0gm8...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> There is a single Russian letter that requires four
> letters to approximate in English -- and seven in
> German. (It's "shch" in English, "schtsch" in German.)

It’s no longer pronounced that way, though: the current
common pronunciation is [ɕ:], a long voiceless
alveolo-palatal sibilant, like a long Pinyin <x>. They use
that even in the name of the letter, when reciting the
alphabet.

> There are distinctions in Chinese that most Westerners
> can't even hear, such as the difference between CH and Q
> (which most Americans just hear as CH), or X and SH

> (which most Americans just hear as SH). [...]

Poles have it easier than most: they actually *have* those
two distinctions.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 4 May 2015 05:09:37 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
> >there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
> >Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
> >In That Context.
>
> It may be worth mentioning that Malledd's parents are Hmar and Anva.

Just to see our faces when you do.

> >> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
> >> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
> >
> >Too true, Blue.
>
> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
> time.

Well, that's the bear necessity.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 6 May 2015 15:31:16 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 May 2015 14:07:47 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><l...@sff.net> wrote
>in<news:fqlkka5vfg78d0gm8...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> There is a single Russian letter that requires four
>> letters to approximate in English -- and seven in
>> German. (It's "shch" in English, "schtsch" in German.)
>
>It’s no longer pronounced that way, though: the current

>common pronunciation is [?:], a long voiceless

>alveolo-palatal sibilant, like a long Pinyin <x>. They use
>that even in the name of the letter, when reciting the
>alphabet.

Really? I didn't know that. Thanks. I always wondered how the hell
a sound like that survived, so it's somehow a relief to know it
hasn't.

>> There are distinctions in Chinese that most Westerners
>> can't even hear, such as the difference between CH and Q
>> (which most Americans just hear as CH), or X and SH
>> (which most Americans just hear as SH). [...]
>
>Poles have it easier than most: they actually *have* those
>two distinctions.

That might partially explain why the Polish woman in the next bunk on
the train from Guilin to Hangzhou was so good at speaking Chinese.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

>Northern Welsh [??]? As I understand it, Southern Welsh
>replaces it with the Brooklynese [??].

My newsreader is not showing the IPA, which is annoying.

I wasn't aware of the distinction between Welsh dialects, but I'd
guess you're right.

>It probably won’t help much, but for those who don’t read

>IPA, [?], the second element of the Northern Welsh

>diphthong, is a high central unrounded vowel that a some
>Americans have in the first syllable of <children>. Some
>have it in the second syllable of <judges>. If you don’t
>have quite the same vowel in the second syllables of
><Russias> (as in ‘Tsar of all the Russias’) and <rushes>,

>you most likely have [?] in the former and [?] in the
>latter.
>
>[...]

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 6 May 2015 21:21:25 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 2015 15:31:16 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 06 May 2015 14:07:47 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
> ><l...@sff.net> wrote
> >in<news:fqlkka5vfg78d0gm8...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
> >in rec.arts.sf.written:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> There is a single Russian letter that requires four
> >> letters to approximate in English -- and seven in
> >> German. (It's "shch" in English, "schtsch" in German.)
> >
> >It's no longer pronounced that way, though: the current
> >common pronunciation is [?:], a long voiceless
> >alveolo-palatal sibilant, like a long Pinyin <x>. They use
> >that even in the name of the letter, when reciting the
> >alphabet.
>
> Really? I didn't know that. Thanks. I always wondered how the hell
> a sound like that survived, so it's somehow a relief to know it
> hasn't.

People who live with cats know many sounds that are unspeakable.

It's a reference either to H. P. Lovecraft or to the
"Basic Instructions" webcomic.

Say, how did Hmar and Anva meet?

(He asked, to a chorus of disapproval.)

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 06 May 2015 16:22:57 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<l...@sff.net> wrote
in<news:dutkkahk655s3er3g...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

Sorry: the first is schwa followed barred-i; the second is
schwa followed by small-capital-I.

If it’s the newsreader, I can’t help, but if it’s lack of a
suitable font, I recommend Charis SIL:

<http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=charissil_download>

Brian
--
It was called ‘Birdsong at Eventide’, and it went, ‘Ting
_pling_ ting pling _ting_, ting tong, ting tong, ting
tonggg clonk, bother!’ At least, that is how it went
when Myrtle played it. -- _Larklight_, by Philip Reeve

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 2:27:39 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 05 May 2015 07:42:40 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >On 5/4/15 12:09 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> >> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> (You should hear what people do to "Bheleu." Even _I_ don't usually
> >>>> bother pronouncing it correctly.)
> >>>
> >>> Too true, Blue.
> >>
> >> Oh, I never do THAT. But "Bayloo" instead of "Bheleu," yeah, all the
> >> time.
> >
> > So is it something more like B'Hayloo? (with B' being a B-sound with a
> >very short pause between it and the H?)
> > I always pronounced it as B'HeeLeeoo in my head.
>
> BH like the Castillian Spanish V, E like the German E (in an accented
> syllable), L like our ordinary L, and EU is a diphthong we don't have
> in standard English (or any other language I can think of that you
> might know), but is more or less the sound in mid-20th-century
> Brooklynese that's usually incorrectly represented as "oi," as in "My
> brother Oil, who's in the earl business." It's not quite an O-umlaut,
> but it's in that neighborhood.
>

That's in German (as in neu) or Dutch (nieow) isn't it?

I have a close freind named Neu, but his family has been in the'
States for generations, and pronounces it like "new."

My Dad, from Queens, always "changed the earl in the car."

> See, I have this bad habit of giving my invented languages their own
> phonetic structures rather than just borrowing them from existing
> languages. (Though if you want to get Domdur names right, use a
> Russian accent and you'll be close. Even though Russian doesn't have
> HM or DD.)
>
> Eramman is probably the hardest to pronounce. Ethsharitic is pretty
> straightforward, though the TH sound gives people from several of the
> Small Kingdoms trouble.

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 6:08:43 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote:

>
> That's in German (as in neu) or Dutch (nieow) isn't it?
>

sp: nieuw rather than nieow.

Sputid fngiers!

Kevin R

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 6 May 2015 15:08:41 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:45ce75b2-f9ed-45f5...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 2:27:39 AM UTC-4, Lawrence
> Watt-Evans wrote:

[...]

>> BH like the Castillian Spanish V, E like the German E
>> (in an accented syllable), L like our ordinary L, and
>> EU is a diphthong we don't have in standard English (or
>> any other language I can think of that you might know),
>> but is more or less the sound in mid-20th-century
>> Brooklynese that's usually incorrectly represented as
>> "oi," as in "My brother Oil, who's in the earl
>> business." It's not quite an O-umlaut, but it's in
>> that neighborhood.

> That's in German (as in neu) or Dutch (nieuw) isn't it?

No. The German diphthong is [ɔʏ] (open-o,
small-capital-Y); the Dutch <eu> diphthong is [øʏ]
(slashed-o, small-capital-Y). IPA small-capital-Y is the
<ü> of German <füllen>, for instance; IPA slashed-o is the
<ö> of German <hören> (but shorter).

The first element of both LWE’s diphthong and the Brooklyn
diphthong is schwa.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 6 May 2015 13:58:37 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>Say, how did Hmar and Anva meet?
>
>(He asked, to a chorus of disapproval.)

Cute.

If I ever decided how they met, I've forgotten; they grew up in the
same village, so they were probably kids.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 6 May 2015 17:26:15 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>If it’s the newsreader, I can’t help, but if it’s lack of a
>suitable font, I recommend Charis SIL:
>
><http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=charissil_download>

I think it's the newsreader, but I'll check that out.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-05-06, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> People who live with cats know many sounds that are unspeakable.

Especially the one that transliterates as {sfx: hairball being thrown up
SOMEWHERE on the good carpet, better grab a paper towel roll as you run}.

Dave, this will get cat owners out of a sound sleep
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[William December Starr]

In article <noplkahvtd3p7g9e2...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

> My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> http://www.avast.com

But apparently has not been checked for whether or not it's an email.

-- wds

[Anthony Nance]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>Now, since there's no real way to pronounce "Malledd",
>>there comes to mind "Mallett". The Hammer Of Insert Name
>>Of Enemy Here, Provided It Does Not Also Sound Goofy
>>In That Context.
>
> It may be worth mentioning that Malledd's parents are Hmar and Anva.

It's his wife that's Anva isn't it? Though I admit not being
able to remember his mother's name - maybe they're the same.

Tony

[Kevrob]

One of these days I'm going to have to learn how to read those IPA glyphs.

I was a schoolchild in the US in the 1960s and early 1970s. Dictionaries
in the use/used a different set of symbols to represent sounds. AKICIF:
is there a handy translation chart on the web somewhere?

My favorite US dictionary is American Heritage

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?

If you search a word there, you'll see the symbology i'm used to.

Merriam-Webster was big, of course, but language fogies disliked the newer
editions.

Kevin R

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 7 May 2015 07:49:58 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

Huh. Hadn't noticed it was doing that.





--

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

You're right, Anva is his wife.

I don't remember his mother's name either, now that you mention it.
Maybe I never gave it.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 7 May 2015 07:29:56 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:23d6ad84-a68f-4591...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> One of these days I'm going to have to learn how to read
> those IPA glyphs.

> I was a schoolchild in the US in the 1960s and early
> 1970s. Dictionaries in the use/used a different set of
> symbols to represent sounds. AKICIF: is there a handy
> translation chart on the web somewhere?

They don’t really translate: the system that you learned is
(a) specifically adapted to English, and especially
American English, and (b) intended to be useful for
speakers of all major U.S. varieties. The first point
means that its coverage is limited, and the second means
that a single symbol means different things to speakers of
different varieties.

It doesn’t have any way to show some distinctions that
people make but in general don’t notice. For instance,
many people have different vowels in the second syllables
of the words in the phrase <Rosa’s roses>, schwa in the
first and barred-i in the second, but that system has no
way to indicate the distinction and will show both as schwa
-- and in fact some people do pronounce both as schwa.
That system gives the first vowel of <children> the same
symbol as the vowel of <chill>, though a great many people,
have barred-i in the former and small-capital-I in the
latter.

[...]

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Thu, 07 May 2015 12:08:16 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

>On 7 May 2015 07:49:58 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
>Starr) wrote:
>
>>In article <noplkahvtd3p7g9e2...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:
>>
>>> My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>But apparently has not been checked for whether or not it's an email.
>
>Huh. Hadn't noticed it was doing that.

If you suddenly find yourself unable to post to Usenet for no apparent
reason, it'll be Avast getting in the way and re-writing your posts
incompetently. Updates breaks its Usenet scanning every now and then.

I'd recommend training it not to interfere with your Usenet posting, but
I don't have an install of it here to let me describe how.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
I don't consider myself bald. I'm simply taller than my hair.
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Kevrob]

(Jargon alert.) I've non clue what "barred i" means.

I'd say R(long o)s(short a)s R(long o)s(short e)s. Growing up in
greater New York (Long Island) I'd expect to hear [R(long o)s (ah - stick out your tongue and say "ah")s and R(long o)z (short i)s from many.

That last short I could probably be more of an "uh" - that's schwa, right?
We were always taught to represent that as an inverted small e. [ ǝ ].

Now I'm in Connecticut. As a kid I had teachers from places like
Balmur Merlan and Fahl Rivah Mass. I hear echoes of that from some of
the locals who didn't blow in from Noo Yahk.

Kevin R

[Robert Bannister]

On 7/05/2015 4:21 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 2015 15:31:16 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 May 2015 14:07:47 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
>> <l...@sff.net> wrote
>> in<news:fqlkka5vfg78d0gm8...@reader80.eternal-september.org>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> There is a single Russian letter that requires four
>>> letters to approximate in English -- and seven in
>>> German. (It's "shch" in English, "schtsch" in German.)
>>
>> It’s no longer pronounced that way, though: the current
>> common pronunciation is [?:], a long voiceless
>> alveolo-palatal sibilant, like a long Pinyin <x>. They use
>> that even in the name of the letter, when reciting the
>> alphabet.
>
> Really? I didn't know that. Thanks. I always wondered how the hell
> a sound like that survived, so it's somehow a relief to know it
> hasn't.

I hear it more as "shy" or "shty" - /Sj/ or /Stj/ - but maybe that's
what I want to hear.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

On 7/05/2015 1:00 pm, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-05-06, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> People who live with cats know many sounds that are unspeakable.
>
> Especially the one that transliterates as {sfx: hairball being thrown up
> SOMEWHERE on the good carpet, better grab a paper towel roll as you run}.

I've noticed that not all cats use that greeting sound:
("brrrrp", with a sharply rising tone).

[Dan Swartzendruber]

The first time I saw this thread, I read it as "Torched by the Gods" :)

[Robert Carnegie]

How about Tulshedd?

Or Noctupp?

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 7 May 2015 12:32:18 +0000 (UTC), na...@math.ohio-state.edu
(Anthony Nance) wrote:

Lawrence could have written a scene where Hmar, talking about
Anva, says, "I'd hit that."

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Fri, 08 May 2015 22:41:34 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net>
wrote:

But there are limits, even for me. Which is why I cut the scene in
the first draft of _Night of Madness_, originally included at my
wife's insistence, where Rudhira tells the other warlocks, "Let's do
the Thyme Wharf again."




--

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 7 May 2015 13:53:24 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:98446748-d3a6-422c...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> (Jargon alert.) I've non clue what "barred i" means.

I assumed that you previously had none; I hoped that you
might at least begin to get some sense of what kind of
vowel it is from the discussion. If you have what is
perhaps the most common U.S. pronunciation of <children>,
you have barred-i in the first syllable. But even if you
do, you may well not be able to recognize that it’s
different from one or another of the more familiar vowels.

> I'd say R(long o)s(short a)s R(long o)s(short e)s.

What is written <ă> and miscalled ‘short a’ is the vowel of
<cat>, and I’d be surprised if you had that in <Rosa’s>.
The likeliest vowel, unless you have an Italianate or
Hispanic pronunciation of the name, is schwa.

I also doubt that you have <ĕ> (miscalled ‘short e’) in
<roses>: it’s the vowel of <bet>, and anyone who uses it in
<roses> in normal speech is going to sound very odd indeed.

> Growing up in greater New York (Long Island) I'd expect
> to hear [R(long o)s (ah - stick out your tongue and say
> "ah")s and R(long o)z (short i)s from many.

What you’re hearing as <ĭ> (miscalled ‘short i’) is in many
cases probably really barred-i. In some cases it may be
schwa [ǝ].

[Kevrob]

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 6:05:38 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 2015 13:53:24 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
> in<news:98446748-d3a6-422c...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>

> > (Jargon alert.) I've no clue what "barred i" means.

>
> I assumed that you previously had none; I hoped that you
> might at least begin to get some sense of what kind of
> vowel it is from the discussion.

This is dancing about architecture. You know IPA, so "barred i"
means something to you, none to me. Found it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel

> If you have what is
> perhaps the most common U.S. pronunciation of <children>,
> you have barred-i in the first syllable. But even if you
> do, you may well not be able to recognize that it’s
> different from one or another of the more familiar vowels.
>
> > I'd say R(long o)s(short a)s R(long o)s(short e)s.
>
> What is written <ă> and miscalled ‘short a’ is the vowel of
> <cat>, and I’d be surprised if you had that in <Rosa’s>.
> The likeliest vowel, unless you have an Italianate or
> Hispanic pronunciation of the name, is schwa.
>

I work with quite a few native Spanish speakers, none named
Rosa, though. Our area has a large Italian-American population.

> I also doubt that you have <ĕ> (miscalled ‘short e’) in
> <roses>: it’s the vowel of <bet>, and anyone who uses it in
> <roses> in normal speech is going to sound very odd indeed.
>

It probably comes out of my mouth more like ro-says, where says is like
"John says he has it." [ Ro-says, where say is like "Say, there..."
would be pink wines.]

> > Growing up in greater New York (Long Island) I'd expect
> > to hear [R(long o)s (ah - stick out your tongue and say
> > "ah")s and R(long o)z (short i)s from many.
>
> What you’re hearing as <ĭ> (miscalled ‘short i’) is in many
> cases probably really barred-i. In some cases it may be
> schwa [ǝ].

I make exactly the same "i" sound when I say "children"
as when I say "chill" or "ill." I hear a lot of people from
other parts of the US use the e sound in "feel," or nearly,
or even a u sound as in "hull." I understand there are vowel shifts
going on in the US. I talk on the phone each weekday to all
50 states. I frequently have folks spell out names and words
due to the vagaries of their accents, magnified by poor
phone signal quality.

If "barred i" sounds like it does, here:

http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/

or here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio

...it is FAR from the most common "i" sound in "children" in the US.

Am I reading it wrong? It sounds like double-o in "food."

I haven't spent all my life in the Northeast. I spent many years
in Wisconsin and a much shorter stint in Florida, and my jobs have
required me to converse with folks from all over the country for nearly
30 years.

Say, is Pygmalion by Shaw SF, with phonetics, phonology and related
fields the science?

Kevin R

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-05-09, Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Say, is Pygmalion by Shaw SF, with phonetics, phonology and related
> fields the science?

And if so, what might happen if Agatha and crew run into a mad LINGuISTIC
scientist?

Dave, the fonts will be extremely interesting

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 9 May 2015 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:640740f1-c857-4896...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

Okay; that’s a relatively modern spelling spelling
pronunciation that’s still a minority pronunciation, I
think, but more common than it was even when I was kid.

> I hear a lot of people from other parts of the US use the
> e sound in "feel," or nearly,

I’ve lived all over the country and almost never heard a
pronunciation that I’d describe that way, so I suspect that
your description isn’t conveying what you hear.

> or even a u sound as in "hull."

What you’re hearing there is probably in most cases
actually barred-i; the <hull> vowel is typically a stressed
schwa -- in phonetic terms mid-central unrounded instead of
barred-i’s high central unrounded, and easily confused with
barred-i unless one’s ear is quite practised -- or a
low-mid back unrounded vowel.

> I understand there are vowel shifts going on in the US.

Three major ones, the Northern Cities Shift in the Inland
North, the Southern Shift in the South, and the California
Shift.

> If "barred i" sounds like it does, here:

> http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/

> or here

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio

> ...it is FAR from the most common "i" sound in "children" in the US.

Those sound files are giving a rather high version of it;
the version commonly heard in <children> is a bit lower.
Moreover, unless you’ve had some serious phonetic
experience, it’s hard to match up a vowel from memory of
connected speech (or even connected speech itself) with an
isolated reference sample. The chart at

<http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/vowels.html>

has a slightly different version, closer to the common
vowel of <children> but still not quite the same. To hear
that vowel, listen to the sound file for <children> at

<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/children>.

> Am I reading it wrong? It sounds like double-o in "food."

No, it doesn’t, though your <food> vowel may be far enough
forward to be barred-u, the rounded counterpart of
barred-i, in which case the two could indeed sound quite
similar to you.

[...]

> Say, is Pygmalion by Shaw SF, with phonetics, phonology
> and related fields the science?

Not really: as I recall, nothing in it is actually
impossible.

[Kevrob]

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:14:34 AM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 9 May 2015 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
> in<news:640740f1-c857-4896...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 6:05:38 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >> On Thu, 7 May 2015 13:53:24 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
> >> <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
> >> in<news:98446748-d3a6-422c...@googlegroups.com>
> >> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> > This is dancing about architecture. You know IPA, so "barred i"
> > means something to you, none to me. Found it here.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel
> >
> >
> >> If you have what is
> >> perhaps the most common U.S. pronunciation of <children>,
> >> you have barred-i in the first syllable. But even if you
> >> do, you may well not be able to recognize that it’s
> >> different from one or another of the more familiar vowels.
> >>
> >>> I'd say R(long o)s(short a)s R(long o)s(short e)s.

> >

> >>> Growing up in greater New York (Long Island).....

> >>
> >> What you’re hearing as <ĭ> (miscalled ‘short i’) is in many
> >> cases probably really barred-i. In some cases it may be
> >> schwa [ǝ].
>
> > I make exactly the same "i" sound when I say "children"
> > as when I say "chill" or "ill."
>
> Okay; that’s a relatively modern spelling spelling
> pronunciation that’s still a minority pronunciation, I
> think, but more common than it was even when I was kid.
>
> > I hear a lot of people from other parts of the US use the
> > e sound in "feel," or nearly,
>
> I’ve lived all over the country and almost never heard a
> pronunciation that I’d describe that way, so I suspect that
> your description isn’t conveying what you hear.
>

You haven't heard USAns from the South say words like "pill" or
"bill" that come out sounding like "pee-yul" and "bee-yul?"
Pretty common among speakers of African-American English, too.

> > or even a u sound as in "hull."
>
> What you’re hearing there is probably in most cases
> actually barred-i; the <hull> vowel is typically a stressed
> schwa -- in phonetic terms mid-central unrounded instead of
> barred-i’s high central unrounded, and easily confused with
> barred-i unless one’s ear is quite practised -- or a
> low-mid back unrounded vowel.
>

I'd wonder if my browser was playing the wrong sound file, except that
barred u sounded subtly different.

> > I understand there are vowel shifts going on in the US.
>
> Three major ones, the Northern Cities Shift in the Inland
> North, the Southern Shift in the South, and the California
> Shift.
>
> > If "barred i" sounds like it does, here:
>
> > http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/
>
> > or here
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio
>
> > ...it is FAR from the most common "i" sound in "children" in the US.
>
> Those sound files are giving a rather high version of it;
> the version commonly heard in <children> is a bit lower.
> Moreover, unless you’ve had some serious phonetic
> experience, it’s hard to match up a vowel from memory of
> connected speech (or even connected speech itself) with an
> isolated reference sample. The chart at
>
> <http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/vowels.html>
>
> has a slightly different version, closer to the common
> vowel of <children> but still not quite the same. To hear
> that vowel, listen to the sound file for <children> at
>
> <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/children>.
>

This actually sounds right. That Canadian site still sounds more like
a "long e" as in "week."

> > Am I reading it wrong? It sounds like double-o in "food."
>
> No, it doesn’t, though your <food> vowel may be far enough
> forward to be barred-u, the rounded counterpart of
> barred-i, in which case the two could indeed sound quite
> similar to you.

This reminds me of the ladies who call me at work, and try to get me
to make distinctions of colors printed in our catalogs. I'm not
color blind, but women have better color vision, and see more shades.
Lady, if the name on the color isn't exactly the same, it isn't
guaranteed to match.

> > Say, is Pygmalion by Shaw SF, with phonetics, phonology
> > and related fields the science?
>
> Not really: as I recall, nothing in it is actually
> impossible.
>

That pushes it closer to hard SF on the fantastic fiction continuum, no?

Plenty of great SF deals with applications of the possible that just
haven't actually been attempted, yet.

Kevin R