What if life were like fiction?

[alal...@gmail.com]

What if life were like fiction? Your life would probably become as a young adult? You would have a very exciting life. There would be no boring conversations. You would probably travel a lot.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <51f064ee-2511-4f2d...@googlegroups.com>,

<alal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>What if life were like fiction? Your life would probably become as a
>young adult? You would have a very exciting life. There would be no
>boring conversations. You would probably travel a lot.

Well, I can only think of the dictum of Mark Twain, "Of course
life is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 9/20/2016 5:29 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <51f064ee-2511-4f2d...@googlegroups.com>,
> <alal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What if life were like fiction? Your life would probably become as a
>> young adult? You would have a very exciting life. There would be no
>> boring conversations. You would probably travel a lot.
>
> Well, I can only think of the dictum of Mark Twain, "Of course
> life is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."
>

There is also the real world definition of "adventure". "Something
unpleasantly exciting happening to someone else far away."

--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Fall 2016 survey began Sep 01; still accepting responses for Summer 2016

[alal...@gmail.com]

Errata: The second sentence should read, "Your life would probably BEGIN as a young adult."

[David Johnston]

Actually fiction contains many minor characters who live uneventful lives.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <nrrhr5$152$1...@dont-email.me>,

Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 9/20/2016 5:29 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <51f064ee-2511-4f2d...@googlegroups.com>,
>> <alal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What if life were like fiction? Your life would probably become as a
>>> young adult? You would have a very exciting life. There would be no
>>> boring conversations. You would probably travel a lot.
>>
>> Well, I can only think of the dictum of Mark Twain, "Of course
>> life is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense."
>>
>There is also the real world definition of "adventure". "Something
>unpleasantly exciting happening to someone else far away."

I think the phrasing "Somebody else in a hell of a fix" is older.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <nrronj$s8r$1...@dont-email.me>,

Qhich is why they remain minor characters.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <oDtHx...@kithrup.com>,

Or to paraphrase a recent tweet somewhere:

Growing up, I always assumed my life would involve
more volcanoes and quicksand...
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Dimensional Traveler]

At the same time? :)

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 20 September 2016 20:30:03 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <nrronj$s8r$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 9/20/2016 5:13 AM, alal...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> What if life were like fiction? Your life would probably become as a
> >young adult? You would have a very exciting life. There would be no
> >boring conversations. You would probably travel a lot.
> >>
> >> Abhinav Lal
> >> Writer & Investor
> >>
> >
> >Actually fiction contains many minor characters who live uneventful lives.
>
> Qhich is why they remain minor characters.

Well, some "minor characters" have "exciting" experiences.

Then again, if they are properly exciting experiences then
those ought to be the major characters?

There are at least two Star Trek novels by Diane Carey,
_Dreadnought!_ and _Battlestations!_, in which Captain Kirk
and Mister Spock have ninety percent of the adventure but
we are following other characters. Kirk and Spock just
pass through from time to time and tell us what they've
been doing meanwhile.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 4:00:27 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 9/20/2016 12:55 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> > Growing up, I always assumed my life would involve
> > more volcanoes and quicksand...
> >
> At the same time? :)

That sounds like something out of "Tim Tyler's Luck."
Tim escapes certain doom from the lava flow by hiding out
in a pit of quicksand. Lava flows over, hardens, Tim has handy
reed or bamboo stick peeking out of the sand for breathing,
after enough time passes, (an intervening weekend for the
daily strip, or an excruciating week for the Sunday or a serial
chapter) and the rest of the Ivory Patrol shows up, hears Tim and
Spud making noise through the tube, and rescues them.

Thanks to WPIX-TV New York, for running those when I was the right
age to enjoy them!

Kevin R

[Dimensional Traveler]

I'm seeing a few problems with that plan....

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:17:10 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 9/21/2016 3:48 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 4:00:27 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> >> On 9/20/2016 12:55 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >
> >>> Growing up, I always assumed my life would involve
> >>> more volcanoes and quicksand...
> >>>
> >> At the same time? :)
> >
> > That sounds like something out of "Tim Tyler's Luck."
> > Tim escapes certain doom from the lava flow by hiding out
> > in a pit of quicksand. Lava flows over, hardens, Tim has handy
> > reed or bamboo stick peeking out of the sand for breathing,
> > after enough time passes, (an intervening weekend for the
> > daily strip, or an excruciating week for the Sunday or a serial
> > chapter) and the rest of the Ivory Patrol shows up, hears Tim and
> > Spud making noise through the tube, and rescues them.
> >
> > Thanks to WPIX-TV New York, for running those when I was the right
> > age to enjoy them!
> >
> I'm seeing a few problems with that plan....

Well, sure. TTL was a 1930s era adventure comic strip and a movie
serial. They follow Rule of Exciting!

Kevin R

[William December Starr]

In article <fcbec298-96a8-4908...@googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> There are at least two Star Trek novels by Diane Carey,
> _Dreadnought!_ and _Battlestations!_, in which Captain Kirk and
> Mister Spock have ninety percent of the adventure but we are
> following other characters. Kirk and Spock just pass through from
> time to time and tell us what they've been doing meanwhile.

There was "The Zeppo," season 3 episode 13 of "Buffy the Vammpire
Slayer." Buffy and the rest of the gang except Xander had a huge
adventure fighting awful thingies that came out of the Hellmouth,
but we only caught bits and glimpses of all that going by in the
background because the real story was about How Xander Found His
Awesome. (The title refers to the perception of how important Zeppo
was to the Marx Brothers or their movies, i.e., almost not at all.)

-- wds

[Alie...@gmail.com]

That was the one with the street-gang-o'-teen-zombies and the bomb in the basement of the school?

Good character-development episode for Xander.

I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xander_Harris

"Xander is based in part on Whedon himself, particularly in his high school years; as such, he is often the most geeky as well as witty and verbose of Buffy's characters."


Mark L. Fergerson

[William December Starr]

In article <09260d63-0256-4026...@googlegroups.com>,

"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> said:

> On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 10:41:39 AM UTC-7, William
> December Starr wrote:
>
>> There was "The Zeppo," season 3 episode 13 of "Buffy the Vammpire
>> Slayer." Buffy and the rest of the gang except Xander had a huge
>> adventure fighting awful thingies that came out of the Hellmouth,
>> but we only caught bits and glimpses of all that going by in the
>> background because the real story was about How Xander Found His
>> Awesome. (The title refers to the perception of how important
>> Zeppo was to the Marx Brothers or their movies, i.e., almost not
>> at all.)
>
> That was the one with the street-gang-o'-teen-zombies and the bomb
> in the basement of the school?

Yup. Good rewiew at http://www.dailydrew.com/2009/07/zeppo.html .

-- wds

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <09260d63-0256-4026...@googlegroups.com>,

nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 10:41:39 AM UTC-7, William December
>Starr wrote:
>> In article <fcbec298-96a8-4908...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:
>>
>> > There are at least two Star Trek novels by Diane Carey,
>> > _Dreadnought!_ and _Battlestations!_, in which Captain Kirk and
>> > Mister Spock have ninety percent of the adventure but we are
>> > following other characters. Kirk and Spock just pass through from
>> > time to time and tell us what they've been doing meanwhile.
>>
>> There was "The Zeppo," season 3 episode 13 of "Buffy the Vammpire
>> Slayer." Buffy and the rest of the gang except Xander had a huge
>> adventure fighting awful thingies that came out of the Hellmouth,
>> but we only caught bits and glimpses of all that going by in the
>> background because the real story was about How Xander Found His
>> Awesome. (The title refers to the perception of how important Zeppo
>> was to the Marx Brothers or their movies, i.e., almost not at all.)
>
> That was the one with the street-gang-o'-teen-zombies and the bomb in
>the basement of the school?
>
> Good character-development episode for Xander.
>
> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:

Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
(or Larry) Stu.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 6:30:13 PM UTC-7, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <09260d63-0256-4026...@googlegroups.com>,
> nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

(Xander Harris of BTVS)

> > I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>
> Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
> (or Larry) Stu.

Whatever. I was trying to be non-sexist about it. Also, there are too many masculine -arry name options in English- just tack a random consonant on and you probably have some guy's name. Change the first vowel to "e" and you have even more.


Mark L. Fergerson

[David Goldfarb]

In article <oE1DE...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

I've also seen Marty.

--
David Goldfarb |"Tom?...I don't get you."
goldf...@gmail.com | "Nobody does. I'm the wind, baby."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theater 3000

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>>
>>Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
>>(or Larry) Stu.
>
> I've also seen Marty.

Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.

Dave, the exciting thing about definitive standards
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
website on VIC is down, probably for good - oh well/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <-dWdnST-mLb0EHrK...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>>>
>>>Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
>>>(or Larry) Stu.
>>
>> I've also seen Marty.
>
>Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.

Right. I've actually seen Gary used, and never seen anyone use
Barry or Larry. That was nagging at me but I couldn't bring it
to the front of my mind.

--
David Goldfarb |"That which can be destroyed by the truth
goldf...@gmail.com | should be."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- P. C. Hodgell, _Seeker's Mask_

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <oE31p...@kithrup.com>,

David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <-dWdnST-mLb0EHrK...@earthlink.com>,
>David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>>>>
>>>>Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
>>>>(or Larry) Stu.
>>>
>>> I've also seen Marty.
>>
>>Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.
>
>Right. I've actually seen Gary used, and never seen anyone use
>Barry or Larry. That was nagging at me but I couldn't bring it
>to the front of my mind.

Anything that rhymes with Mary, really.

[David Johnston]

And yes, some people do also just stick with calling them Mary Sues
regardless of sex.

[Don Kuenz]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <oE31p...@kithrup.com>,
> David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <-dWdnST-mLb0EHrK...@earthlink.com>,
>>David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>>On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
>>>>>(or Larry) Stu.
>>>>
>>>> I've also seen Marty.
>>>
>>>Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.
>>
>>Right. I've actually seen Gary used, and never seen anyone use
>>Barry or Larry. That was nagging at me but I couldn't bring it
>>to the front of my mind.
>
> Anything that rhymes with Mary, really.

The Trooper in _The City on the Edge of Forever_ was Harlan's Harry Stu.
:0)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

'Ave you 'eard o' the Widow at Windsor
With a hairy gold crown on 'er 'ead?
- Kipling

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <ns9pt7$p5q$3...@dont-email.me>, Davidjo...@yahoo.com
says...

It has the power of consistency, and is maybe less sexist, but male
Mary Sues have commonalities that might differ from their counterparts,
which might rate a distinct term. (As I understand it, they tend to
slay all the foes and bed all the ladies, while the original Mary Sue
is merely universally loved, omnicompetent, and gets whoever they
want.)

Not all self-inserts and author avatars are Mary Sues, though. I'm not
sure Xander really fits the description.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 9/25/16 7:10 PM, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <-dWdnST-mLb0EHrK...@earthlink.com>,
> David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>> On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>> nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
>>>>
>>>> Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
>>>> (or Larry) Stu.
>>>
>>> I've also seen Marty.
>>
>> Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.
>
> Right. I've actually seen Gary used, and never seen anyone use
> Barry or Larry. That was nagging at me but I couldn't bring it
> to the front of my mind.
>

I've seen Gary and Marty, and Marty mostly (so Mary Sue -- Marty Sue
{or sometimes Marty Stu} and this retains the same initials)

Never saw Barry or Larry.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Well, there's the general category (Wish Fulfillment Character) and the
general category (Author Self-Insert). A Mary Sue is the intersection of
those two categories. Like any type of character, they can be done well,
or done poorly, and like any other writing-related phenomenon, the vast
majority are done poorly.

Of course "Wish Fulfillment" varies. For most classic men, it's being
the Hero of the tale, which often includes lots of badassery and babes.
But there's LOTS of Wish Fulfillment types. For instance, while there's
the classic "Ultracompetent and Adored By All" Sue, there's also the
Suffering Sue (in which she's loved for what she endures), the Dramatic
Death Sue (in which They're All So Sorry She's Gone), and others.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <nsba18$u38$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> Well, there's the general category (Wish Fulfillment Character) and the
>general category (Author Self-Insert). A Mary Sue is the intersection of
>those two categories. Like any type of character, they can be done well,
>or done poorly, and like any other writing-related phenomenon, the vast
>majority are done poorly.
>
> Of course "Wish Fulfillment" varies. For most classic men, it's being
>the Hero of the tale, which often includes lots of badassery and babes.
>But there's LOTS of Wish Fulfillment types. For instance, while there's
>the classic "Ultracompetent and Adored By All" Sue, there's also the
>Suffering Sue (in which she's loved for what she endures), the Dramatic
>Death Sue (in which They're All So Sorry She's Gone), and others.
>

Consider the consistent author-avatar in Heinlein's work, who is
always a crusty old geezer who is smarter than anybody else.
(Well, except in stories with Andrew Libby in them. Maybe I
should rephrase that to "wiser than anybody else.")

[David Johnston]

I'm quite confident he wasn't. Mary Sues by any name are never the butt
of humour or anyone's punching bag. A Mary Sue is a literary black
hole, by which I mean that nothing escapes their gravity. Everything is
about them.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

What about the Crusty Old Geezer character in TNOTB who invents the widget that allows all of the interworldline traveling but gets his comeuppance partway through the book?

Is that Heinlein expressing the realization that he *isn't* smarter/wiser than everybody else?


Mark L. Fergerson

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:16:26 +0300, Juho Julkunen
<giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>Not all self-inserts and author avatars are Mary Sues, though. I'm not
>sure Xander really fits the description.

I like the way Clive Cussler does it. In one book, he was a bus
driver. He does not play it up.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Actually, he does, and it became a more and more annoying and intrusive
part of the books. At first it was just a cameo, roughly like Stan Lee's
cameos in the various Marvel movies: he shows up and you find out his
name and that he has some hobby or something that is connected to the
real Cussler. Maybe he is in a race against Dirk in a classic car just
before the real action begins, that kind of thing. I didn't have trouble
with that, it was just a quick wink-and-gone that never affected the
course of events in the book.

But then he started to play a larger and larger role, becoming
basically a Deus Ex Machina character who'd pop up at critical points of
the novel to hand Dirk the information or material he needed to continue
onward -- and Dirk, normally the kind of guy who remembers something
clearly from 15 years ago, can never recall that he met this guy before.
It really became highly intrusive.

[Robert Bannister]

"Mary" and "marry" don't rhyme in my English, but Gary and Harry do.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:31:32 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
in<news:e4tpek...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> "Mary" and "marry" don't rhyme in my English,

They don’t rhyme in two of the three common varieties: they
don’t rhyme for those who have a three-way distinction
amongst <Mary>, <marry> and <merry>, or for those who have
a two-way distinction between <marry> on the one hand and
<Mary> = <merry> on the other.

> but Gary and Harry do.

With each other and with <marry>, yes?

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 11:24:55 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

(Xander Harris as Joss Whedon's Mary Sue in BTVS)

> I'm quite confident he wasn't. Mary Sues by any name are never the butt
> of humour or anyone's punching bag. A Mary Sue is a literary black
> hole, by which I mean that nothing escapes their gravity. Everything is
> about them.

Whedon said he is, at least for Whedon's High School years.


Mark L. Fergerson

[David Johnston]

As already said, author avatars and self-inserts aren't automatically
Mary Sues.

[Kevrob]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 7:38:32 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:31:32 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
> in<news:e4tpek...@mid.individual.net> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
> > "Mary" and "marry" don't rhyme in my English,
>
> They don’t rhyme in two of the three common varieties: they
> don’t rhyme for those who have a three-way distinction
> amongst <Mary>, <marry> and <merry>, or for those who have
> a two-way distinction between <marry> on the one hand and
> <Mary> = <merry> on the other.
>
> > but Gary and Harry do.
>
> With each other and with <marry>, yes?
>

For me, yes, but not with "hairy."

Mary was merry, for soon she would marry. - The M words have 3
different sounds. Not always so for my many Midwestern friends.
Northern Cities Vowel Shift, Brian?

And "ferry" rhymes with "berry," but not with "fairy" which
rhymes with "dairy." (A lot of folks in the Dairy State think
those all rhyme.)

Except, they may not hear themselves!

http://preview.tinyurl.com/Mifsud-on-NCS which is

http://tinyurl.com/Mifsud-on-NCS and resolves to

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2012/08/northern_cities_vowel_shift_how_americans_in_the_great_lakes_region_are_revolutionizing_english_.html

Kevin R

[Greg Goss]

I think that it was Cat Who Walks Through Walls where the women ran
things while Laz wandered around continually trying to catch up.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 18:20:27 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:0266a8c0-dc28-4d99...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 7:38:32 PM UTC-4, Brian
> M. Scott wrote:

>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:31:32 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
>> in<news:e4tpek...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:

>> [...]

>>> "Mary" and "marry" don't rhyme in my English,

>> They don’t rhyme in two of the three common varieties: they
>> don’t rhyme for those who have a three-way distinction
>> amongst <Mary>, <marry> and <merry>, or for those who have
>> a two-way distinction between <marry> on the one hand and
>> <Mary> = <merry> on the other.

>>> but Gary and Harry do.

>> With each other and with <marry>, yes?

> For me, yes, but not with "hairy."

> Mary was merry, for soon she would marry. - The M words
> have 3 different sounds. Not always so for my many
> Midwestern friends. Northern Cities Vowel Shift, Brian?

No, the Mary = merry <> marry and Mary = merry = marry
varieties are the result of earlier mergers. You can read
more at

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_/r/#Mary.E2.80.93marry.E2.80.93merry_merger>

[...]

[Robert Carnegie]

Or imagine the Queen of England saying it...

Or we could say that a rhyme doesn't have to be exact.

[David Johnston]

On 9/26/2016 7:20 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 7:38:32 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:31:32 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
>> in<news:e4tpek...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> "Mary" and "marry" don't rhyme in my English,
>>
>> They don’t rhyme in two of the three common varieties: they
>> don’t rhyme for those who have a three-way distinction
>> amongst <Mary>, <marry> and <merry>, or for those who have
>> a two-way distinction between <marry> on the one hand and
>> <Mary> = <merry> on the other.
>>
>>> but Gary and Harry do.
>>
>> With each other and with <marry>, yes?
>>
>
> For me, yes, but not with "hairy."
>
> Mary was merry, for soon she would marry. - The M words have 3
> different sounds. Not always so for my many Midwestern friends.
> Northern Cities Vowel Shift, Brian?
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3sOA6yQc4A

[David DeLaney]

Gini Koch's protagonist Kitty, in her Alien series, seems quite definitely to
be a Mary Sue to me; she's adored by all, but not ultracompetent - but her main
shtick is being able to leap to correct conclusions, so it substitutes handily.
I think it's at least not done _badly_ there. I don't -think- it's an author
insert as such but I could be wrong.

Dave

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5fb37165-0637-44c0...@googlegroups.com>,

In which case we call it a "false rhyme."

Is anybody else old enough to remember the old Bell TV programs?
"Our Mr. Sun," "Hemo the Magnificent," et cetera? There were
four of them (in black and white), and a fifth later on (in
color), "The Alphabet Conspiracy." (With Hans Conried as the Mad
Hatter.) They used the marry/merry/Mary contrast to prove that
somebody came from the Eastern US, and using other isoglosses
they pinned him down to New York City.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Well, a self-insert wish fulfillment character is a Mary Sue. Saying
that a Mary Sue can never be the butt of the jokes means you're ignoring
the people that include that kind of thing AS their wish-fulfillment --
the character that everyone thinks is a dork, but really, if you look at
it, holds everything together.

There's Purity Sues and Suffering Sues and Tragedy Sues and Evil Sues...

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nsdtfn$v8d$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

Boys named Sues..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Greg Goss]

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

>Boys named Sues..

My roommate when I went to college in 81 was a boy named Su. He had
never heard of the song. I had to go buy the album just to show him.

(Foreign student from Japan. Perfect English, but missing a lot of
the cultural cues.)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <e4vdj3...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>>Boys named Sues..
>
>My roommate when I went to college in 81 was a boy named Su. He had
>never heard of the song. I had to go buy the album just to show him.
>
>(Foreign student from Japan. Perfect English, but missing a lot of
>the cultural cues.)

In the CS department when I was in college at about the same time,
there was a girl named Sieu (or maybe Siew) pronunced "Sue" and a
girl named "Natsu", pronounced, basically (Not-Sue). I always wondered
what would happen if they met..

[Dimensional Traveler]

...and Doctor Sues....


--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Fall 2016 survey began Sep 01; still accepting responses for Summer 2016

[Dimensional Traveler]

Sounds like the beginning of a Nicoll Event.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 06:02:30 -0500, David DeLaney
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote
in<news:wNKdnewSPapbzHfK...@earthlink.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

No, that’s her main *ability*. Her main *shtick* is the
way that she names people and events.

> so it substitutes handily. I think it's at least not done
> _badly_ there.

I don’t think that she even comes close to fitting the
definition.

> I don't -think- it's an author insert as such but I could
> be wrong.

And if you’re right, you’ve ruled out the possibility that
she’s a Mary Sue.

[Kevrob]

... and both my parents are from the boroughs (Brooklyn and Queens)
and I grew up east of there, among many NYC transplants and their
children. The sisters who taught us in grammar school were mostly
from Massachusetts and Maryland. The mother house was located in Fall
River, MA. We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur,
Murlan." But I suspect their presence mitigated some of the Lawn
Guylandisms in my speech. I rarely say "youse guys," for instance. :)

The order of sisters who staffed our high school were HQed in Halifax,
Nova Scotia, but there wasn't a heavy Canadian influence there. Most
of the nuns were from New England, and we had as many lay teachers
as religious, and they were mostly locals.

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 9/27/2016 7:29 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <e4vdj3...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> >>
> >>> Boys named Sues..
> >>
> >> My roommate when I went to college in 81 was a boy named Su. He had
> >> never heard of the song. I had to go buy the album just to show him.
> >>
> >> (Foreign student from Japan. Perfect English, but missing a lot of
> >> the cultural cues.)
> >
> > In the CS department when I was in college at about the same time,
> > there was a girl named Sieu (or maybe Siew) pronunced "Sue" and a
> > girl named "Natsu", pronounced, basically (Not-Sue). I always wondered
> > what would happen if they met..
> >
> Sounds like the beginning of a Nicoll Event.
>

If a Lakota wrote fan fiction, would he insert a Marty Sioux?*

Kevin R

* (Shook hands with Russel Means, once.)

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 26 September 2016 15:02:36 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 9/25/16 7:10 PM, David Goldfarb wrote:
> > In article <-dWdnST-mLb0EHrK...@earthlink.com>,
> > David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
> >> On 2016-09-25, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> >>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> >>>> nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I never realized that he was sorta Whedon's Mary Sue:
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, for male people/characters, the usual term is Barry
> >>>> (or Larry) Stu.
> >>>
> >>> I've also seen Marty.
> >>
> >> Whereas I'm used to Gary Stu.
> >
> > Right. I've actually seen Gary used, and never seen anyone use
> > Barry or Larry. That was nagging at me but I couldn't bring it
> > to the front of my mind.
> >
>
>

> I've seen Gary and Marty, and Marty mostly (so Mary Sue -- Marty Sue
> {or sometimes Marty Stu} and this retains the same initials)
>
> Never saw Barry or Larry.

Coincidentally, this afternoon in a small Scottish town
I walked past a busker while he wasn't playing, and I
hope I remember correctly that he had a name plate saying
"Davie Stu". (If so, his self-promotion doesn't seem
to extend to online.)

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 10:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

> We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur,
>Murlan."

Jack Chalker used to say he lived in Curl Canny Merlin -- i.e.,
Carroll County, Maryland.





--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

[David Johnston]

On 9/27/2016 7:50 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 9/26/16 9:13 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 9/26/2016 7:08 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 11:24:55 AM UTC-7, David Johnston
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (Xander Harris as Joss Whedon's Mary Sue in BTVS)
>>>
>>>> I'm quite confident he wasn't. Mary Sues by any name are never the
>>>> butt
>>>> of humour or anyone's punching bag. A Mary Sue is a literary black
>>>> hole, by which I mean that nothing escapes their gravity.
>>>> Everything is
>>>> about them.
>>>
>>> Whedon said he is, at least for Whedon's High School years.
>>
>> As already said, author avatars and self-inserts aren't automatically
>> Mary Sues.
>>
>>
>
> Well, a self-insert wish fulfillment character is a Mary Sue.

No, that makes Mary Sue a neutral categorization...and it is no such
thing. Mary Sue is an exception to "no bad tropes". There are no good
Mary Sues. Mary Sue was invented to describe a particular kind of bad
writing, the kind where the story is entirely about how awesome and
important the character is to the exclusion of actually writing a story
with things like other characters with their own concerns...and a plot.

[Kevrob]

So, what's a non-objectionable insert by the author:
Self-Tuckerization?

Kevin R

[David Johnston]

Author avatar is the TV Tropes-approved label. Literary people refer to
a character who acts as a mouthpiece for the author's thoughts as a
raisonneur. You'll be very familiar with the type if you've read
Heinlein.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 9/27/16 2:57 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 9/27/2016 7:50 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 9/26/16 9:13 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 9/26/2016 7:08 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
>>>> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 11:24:55 AM UTC-7, David Johnston
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (Xander Harris as Joss Whedon's Mary Sue in BTVS)
>>>>
>>>>> I'm quite confident he wasn't. Mary Sues by any name are never the
>>>>> butt
>>>>> of humour or anyone's punching bag. A Mary Sue is a literary black
>>>>> hole, by which I mean that nothing escapes their gravity.
>>>>> Everything is
>>>>> about them.
>>>>
>>>> Whedon said he is, at least for Whedon's High School years.
>>>
>>> As already said, author avatars and self-inserts aren't automatically
>>> Mary Sues.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, a self-insert wish fulfillment character is a Mary Sue.
>
> No, that makes Mary Sue a neutral categorization...and it is no such
> thing. Mary Sue is an exception to "no bad tropes". There are no good
> Mary Sues.

This is not the only definition. The one that I (and that many other
people of my acquaintance in various fandoms) have been working with for
at least 20 years is, like all other tropes, that 90%+ are bad, but they
don't have to be. Erik Medon in _Polychrome_ is a Mary Sue, but many
readers don't think he's BAD.

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-09-27, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur, Murlan."
>
> Jack Chalker used to say he lived in Curl Canny Merlin -- i.e.,
> Carroll County, Maryland.

And this is the South so it's less surprising, but there's a town not too
far south of me called Murravul, TinaSEE.

Dave, * "Maryville, Tennessee"

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:31:41 -0500, David DeLaney
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2016-09-27, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur, Murlan."
>>
>> Jack Chalker used to say he lived in Curl Canny Merlin -- i.e.,
>> Carroll County, Maryland.
>
>And this is the South so it's less surprising, but there's a town not too
>far south of me called Murravul, TinaSEE.

I used to live in Kentucky. To the west of us we had Versailles,
pronounced "Vursails," and Louisville, pronounced "Looavul."

I once got a phone call from a political campaign, on behalf of
someone running for state office, and the person making the call
pronounced the state's name "Mary Land." You'd think they'd go to the
trouble to make sure the phone bank person (who, from her accent, I
suspect was in Detroit) knew how to pronounce the state she was
calling.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 12:51:48 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:31:41 -0500, David DeLaney
> <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >On 2016-09-27, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> >> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>> We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur, Murlan."
> >>
> >> Jack Chalker used to say he lived in Curl Canny Merlin -- i.e.,
> >> Carroll County, Maryland.
> >
> >And this is the South so it's less surprising, but there's a town not too
> >far south of me called Murravul, TinaSEE.
>
> I used to live in Kentucky. To the west of us we had Versailles,
> pronounced "Vursails," and Louisville, pronounced "Looavul."
>

I had a history prof from KY who taught us to say "Lullvul."
I wondered if that was a comment on how lively the city was.
Like Indian No Place, Innyanna.

> I once got a phone call from a political campaign, on behalf of
> someone running for state office, and the person making the call
> pronounced the state's name "Mary Land." You'd think they'd go to the
> trouble to make sure the phone bank person (who, from her accent, I
> suspect was in Detroit) knew how to pronounce the state she was
> calling.

Campaigns use who they can afford. The caller may have been
a volunteer, or a low-paid worker warming a chair in a call
center, possibly half a world away.

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <nqimubh9ipji2nq3n...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

And let's not forget New MAD-rid, Missouri, home of the fault....

My favorite Midwest Vowel Change story is about the Brit whose
name was Ian, and who came to Detroit and was told, "Why do you
have a woman's name?" "Ian" was how they pronounced "Ann."

"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
--Edward Sapir

[Scott Lurndal]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <nqimubh9ipji2nq3n...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:31:41 -0500, David DeLaney
>><davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2016-09-27, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>> We always had fun mimicking "FAHL RivAH" and "Balmur, Murlan."
>>>>
>>>> Jack Chalker used to say he lived in Curl Canny Merlin -- i.e.,
>>>> Carroll County, Maryland.
>>>
>>>And this is the South so it's less surprising, but there's a town not too
>>>far south of me called Murravul, TinaSEE.
>>
>>I used to live in Kentucky. To the west of us we had Versailles,
>>pronounced "Vursails," and Louisville, pronounced "Looavul."
>>
>>I once got a phone call from a political campaign, on behalf of
>>someone running for state office, and the person making the call
>>pronounced the state's name "Mary Land." You'd think they'd go to the
>>trouble to make sure the phone bank person (who, from her accent, I
>>suspect was in Detroit) knew how to pronounce the state she was
>>calling.
>
>And let's not forget New MAD-rid, Missouri, home of the fault....
>

Or New Prayg (New Prague) in Minn.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:50:00 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oE7sz...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> And let's not forget New MAD-rid, Missouri, home of the
> fault....

Berlin, Wisconsin, is BER-lin. It was named after the
German city, and the stress was changed during World War I.

But the oddest one that I’ve encountered is about a 30 mile
bike ride from here: it’s Mantua, pronouced MAN-a-way.

[...]

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 03:33:31 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Oh, I assumed a low-paid worker. I still think they should have made
sure she knew how to pronounce, "Are you a registered Maryland voter?"

[Don Bruder]

In article <1011frujor6xp$.1fqm1so4...@40tude.net>,

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:50:00 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oE7sz...@kithrup.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
> > And let's not forget New MAD-rid, Missouri, home of the
> > fault....
>
> Berlin, Wisconsin, is BER-lin. It was named after the
> German city, and the stress was changed during World War I.
>
> But the oddest one that I've encountered is about a 30 mile
> bike ride from here: it's Mantua, pronouced MAN-a-way.

Sounds like something you might find in a spray-can that women would
carry for defense against muggers/rapists/etc...

<Johnny Olson voice> Worried about the late-night walk to your car from
the office? Try new extra-strength Man-A-Way! Guaranteed to get rid of
those pesky parking lot lurkers with just one spray! Now with convenient
key-chain attachment loop and designer colors! Available in fine stores
everywhere!<cue jingle I ain't creative enough to come up with>

--
Brought to you by the letter K and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

[Peter Trei]

You mean this? (SFW)
https://www.amazon.com/HSA/pages/default?pageId=61344F78-CF5F-4CEC-85CE-92AE24773DC8

[Robert Carnegie]

"One nation" indeed! :-)

[Kevrob]

I am not one of those people who claims they are sensitive to
fragrances. I'm sure some of them really are, while others deserve
to be inundated from a fire-fighting plane by 10,000 gallons of
"Eau d'gluten," but..... I used to live across the hall, in the early
1980s, from a free-spirited young lady who affected hippy garb
and doused herself in so much patchouli oil that it took an effort
not to take several steps back from her when having a conversation.
It was a shame, really, because she was very nice, and reasonably
cute, but if one can "bounce off" a novel, well, I was bouncing off
her...(and not in a good way)...all because I just couldn't get
past that damned smell!

Kevin R

[Peter Trei]

I'm informed that the current equivalent among Da Yout is 'Axe' body
spray, which some teenagers seem to regard as an alternative to showering.

Myself, on fancy occasions I will indulge in a *small* spritz of 'Obsession
for Men', which I've never had a lady claim not to like.

pt

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:00:10 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote:

It is the sort of thing that people can easily miss. Do you
*normally* consider how other people will pronounce something?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Don Bruder]

In article <98947f0d-b6d8-41ca...@googlegroups.com>,

More or less, though I was riffing on the (pseudo)brand-name, more than
the product.

Personally, whether you wanna call it "Mace" or "Man-A-Way", I can't
take it seriously. I think my sig probably covers my stance on personal
defense products adequately. :) At least, it's INTENDED to... Can't
speak for whether anyone else actually "gets it".

(Hint: Because a cop is too heavy to carry and doesn't fit on my belt)

[hamis...@gmail.com]

Yes, because there's no possible situation which guns aren't the answer for...

[Don Bruder]

In article <15d4bd6a-0f09-49e0...@googlegroups.com>,

More like because when a gun is the proper tool for the situation,
nothing else will do. Along with the fact that when one is needed, it's
usually needed *RIGHT NOW*, not "whenever dispatch can get an officer to
you".

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that you and I have gone 'round and
'round this particular mulberry bush before. And as I recall, neither of
us budged the other even a fraction - Nothing has changed since then.
I'm pro-, you're anti-, and that's the way of it. Do you truly want me
to beat you about the head and shoulders with the reality-club again, or
can you be satisfied with walking away and calling it a wash?

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:51:49 PM UTC-7, Don Bruder wrote:
> In article <15d4bd6a-0f09-49e0...@googlegroups.com>,
> hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 10:51:21 AM UTC+10, Don Bruder wrote:

(snip)

> > > Personally, whether you wanna call it "Mace" or "Man-A-Way",

The latter is sexist anyway. ;>)

> > > I can't take it seriously. I think my sig probably covers my stance
> > > on personal defense products adequately. :) At least, it's INTENDED
> > > to... Can't speak for whether anyone else actually "gets it".

Thing is, those that "get it" *before* making you need it because they saw it? You never know about them.

I think that's a good thing. OTOH they just go looking for an easier target. No doubt Liberals consider that selfish of you.

> > > (Hint: Because a cop is too heavy to carry and doesn't fit on my belt)

No point in carrying a cop anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

> > Yes, because there's no possible situation which guns aren't the answer
> > for...
>
> More like because when a gun is the proper tool for the situation,
> nothing else will do. Along with the fact that when one is needed, it's
> usually needed *RIGHT NOW*, not "whenever dispatch can get an officer to
> you".

That's why we have the phrase "self-protection".

> Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that you and I have gone 'round and
> 'round this particular mulberry bush before. And as I recall, neither of
> us budged the other even a fraction - Nothing has changed since then.
> I'm pro-, you're anti-, and that's the way of it. Do you truly want me
> to beat you about the head and shoulders with the reality-club again, or
> can you be satisfied with walking away and calling it a wash?

There *is* a Presidential election coming up, and the anti-gun chorus has already been cued up...

Just sayin'.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 14:15:44 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net>

If I'm hiring them to give a prepared spiel, yeah, I think I do.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <nshvjl$i6i$1...@dont-email.me>, dak...@sonic.net says...

Maybe he'd be more partial to that if you didn't insist on labeling
your fantasy as reality, thus implying his reality is fantasy.

Rule of thumb to any political discussion: when ever one party
considers themselves 'rational' or 'reality-based', real conversation
is impossible, and any attempt at it is a waste of time.

--
Juho Julkunen
Drive-by snarker

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 01:03:16 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>

wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 14:15:44 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:00:10 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 03:33:31 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 12:51:48 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I once got a phone call from a political campaign, on behalf of
>>>>> someone running for state office, and the person making the call
>>>>> pronounced the state's name "Mary Land." You'd think they'd go to the
>>>>> trouble to make sure the phone bank person (who, from her accent, I
>>>>> suspect was in Detroit) knew how to pronounce the state she was
>>>>> calling.
>>>>
>>>>Campaigns use who they can afford. The caller may have been
>>>>a volunteer, or a low-paid worker warming a chair in a call
>>>>center, possibly half a world away.
>>>
>>>Oh, I assumed a low-paid worker. I still think they should have made
>>>sure she knew how to pronounce, "Are you a registered Maryland voter?"
>>
>> It is the sort of thing that people can easily miss. Do you
>>*normally* consider how other people will pronounce something?
>
>If I'm hiring them to give a prepared spiel, yeah, I think I do.

I might well, too, but some will not think of it. I might not
myself.

I know that I did not think there was a significant difference
between English as spoken in British Columbia and Washington state. I
was disabused by a few conversations. It was not much, but it was
enough in at least two cases that I could not understand the speaker,
only know that he was speaking English.

I found that there were three factors that could cause trouble:
fast speaking, drawl, and background noise. With none or one present,
I rarely had a problem. With two, I might have a minor problem. With
three, it was likely, I would miss parts. (On the background noise, I
do not mean something loud enough to drown out a speaker but enough to
make it difficult to hear clearly.)

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Kevrob]

I talk to people all day on the phone, from all over the USA
and sometimes from Canada. I speak to folks for whom English
is their first language, or their second, with many different
accents. Anyone who has had a job ike that can testify to how
difficult it can be to understand, or make yourself understood,
to someone who speaks a different base form of the language:
different language, different vocabulary, different customs.
One custom is offended if you use an honorific such as Ms or Mr,
demanding you use his or her first name. Someone else would be
horrified if you didn't "Miz" every use of her surname.
Simple things, like taking an address are landmines. Ask if
there's an apartment number, and you've just accused them of
being deadbeats who can't afford to carry a mortgage. Never mind
that their are Manhattan apartments selling for namy multiples
of the cost of their shack. Among some quirks:

Californians will give you their zip code and the name of their
town, and be surprised when you ask "State?"

Texans don't know the full names of their street.
It's always "123 Sam Houston." "Blvd? St? Ave? Hwy?" My theory is
that the highway department down their is saving paint on the street
signs.

If you aren't convinced the "vowel shift" is real, put a headset
on and staff the help desk for a couple of days. "Is that A as in Adam
or E as in Edward, please?" is a frequent question.

On the other hand, people are delighted when you can pronounce local
names correctly, like not butchering "La Jolla."

I like to relate people's names to movie stars.
"Is that Barbra like Streisand or (Barbara) like Stanwyck?" is
one I try with "senior citizen"-sounding voices.

I also get great use out of "Lo siento, no. Hablo solamente
un poquito de espanol, pero permítame transferir su llamada, por favor."


If someone in Kamloops sits around and watches a lot of CBC
and CTV, is he a chesterfield turnip? :)

Kevin R

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<kev...@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:d2e898c9-fc82-4a4a...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> If someone in Kamloops sits around and watches a lot of
> CBC and CTV, is he a chesterfield turnip? :)

Nah, he’s a rooted bugger.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5v6rub50069d3m3fl...@4ax.com>,

Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> I know that I did not think there was a significant difference
>between English as spoken in British Columbia and Washington state. I
>was disabused by a few conversations. It was not much, but it was
>enough in at least two cases that I could not understand the speaker,
>only know that he was speaking English.

There was a television series some years ago, "The Story of
English," hosted by newsman Robert MacNeil. It contained a scene
in which MacNeil, standing on the US/Canada border at Niagara
Falls, is talking about different subdialects of English and
says, "This building over here (points) is called a house [US
pronounciation], but that one (pointing across the border) is
called a house [Canadian pronunciation]".

>
> I found that there were three factors that could cause trouble:
>fast speaking, drawl, and background noise.

Oh, yes. One of the things I learned, studying linguistics back
in the day, is that human languages are about seventy percent
redundant. James Burke's series "The Real Thing" had a scene
showing two people speaking while a pneumatic drill is operating,
cutting out seventy percent of what they say, and the listener
(if s/he is used to standard BBC prununciation) can follow them
easily. But I was once taken to a pub in Glasgow, and there was
a lot of ambient noise AND they were all speaking Glaswegian, and
I couldn't understand a word.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <d2e898c9-fc82-4a4a...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>I talk to people all day on the phone, from all over the USA
>and sometimes from Canada. I speak to folks for whom English
>is their first language, or their second, with many different
>accents. Anyone who has had a job ike that can testify to how
>difficult it can be to understand, or make yourself understood,
>to someone who speaks a different base form of the language:
>different language, different vocabulary, different customs.
>One custom is offended if you use an honorific such as Ms or Mr,
>demanding you use his or her first name. Someone else would be
>horrified if you didn't "Miz" every use of her surname.
>Simple things, like taking an address are landmines. Ask if
>there's an apartment number, and you've just accused them of
>being deadbeats who can't afford to carry a mortgage. Never mind
>that their are Manhattan apartments selling for namy multiples
>of the cost of their shack. Among some quirks:
>
>Californians will give you their zip code and the name of their
>town, and be surprised when you ask "State?"

Well ... California is pretty large. Still, I don't think I'd
get angry if asked for my state, I'd laugh and say, "Oh,
California."

>Texans don't know the full names of their street.
>It's always "123 Sam Houston." "Blvd? St? Ave? Hwy?" My theory is
>that the highway department down their is saving paint on the street
>signs.

Um ... do the street signs actually not give "Street" et cetera?
Or do the locals simply assume that the name is sufficient and
the designation doesn't matter?

>If you aren't convinced the "vowel shift" is real, put a headset
>on and staff the help desk for a couple of days. "Is that A as in Adam
>or E as in Edward, please?" is a frequent question.
>
>On the other hand, people are delighted when you can pronounce local
>names correctly, like not butchering "La Jolla."

Ogden Nash once wrote, "Californias fine each other a dollar/If
they say 'La Jolla,'/and give each other a Picasso or a Goya/If
they say 'La Hoya.'" I think it's more a matter of knowing
whether a name is English or Spanish.

>
>I like to relate people's names to movie stars.
>"Is that Barbra like Streisand or (Barbara) like Stanwyck?" is
>one I try with "senior citizen"-sounding voices.

If they're sufficiently senior, they may have heard of Stanwyck
and not Streisand.

>
>I also get great use out of "Lo siento, no. Hablo solamente
>un poquito de espanol, pero permítame transferir su llamada, por favor."

I once, while sitting with a friend in the office of a
housecleaning agency, had to dredge up my rusty Spanish to
translate the (telephoned) message of a doctor to a housemaid who
spoke no English, telling her that she would be all right. Thank
Ghu, I managed to get it across.

[David DeLaney]

On 2016-09-29, Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, people are delighted when you can pronounce local
> names correctly, like not butchering "La Jolla."

They are even more delighted, I find, when you pronounce their name correctly
without having heard it first. I get a few "You said my name right! Nobody EVER
says it right!"s a week.

Dave, but to balance that out, I'm apparently considered "such a NICE man" in
the comments in the background as the phone's getting hung up

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <kqKdnQRl6sw6fnDK...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On 2016-09-29, Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, people are delighted when you can pronounce local
>> names correctly, like not butchering "La Jolla."
>
>They are even more delighted, I find, when you pronounce their name correctly
>without having heard it first. I get a few "You said my name right! Nobody EVER
>says it right!"s a week.
>
>Dave, but to balance that out, I'm apparently considered "such a NICE man" in
> the comments in the background as the phone's getting hung up

Names are difficult. My maiden name was Jones. You'd think
anybody could spell and/or pronounce that, right? Nope. So when
I married I took my husband's name, which is Heydt.

Nobody can spell or pronounce that either. So when my daughter
married, she took her husband's name, which is Creelman.

Nobody ... et cetera.

My son, on the other hand, changed his last name to Salazar
before he married. Salazar is his wife's mother's maiden name
and his wife, who's an actress, has been using that as her
professional name for years. So Tris changed his name to
Salazar, which he could afford to do, so that Erica, who
couldn't, could get her name change automatically (SSA gives you
a form to fill out). Ingenuity triumphs over bureaucracy.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>I talk to people all day on the phone, from all over the USA
>and sometimes from Canada. I speak to folks for whom English
>is their first language, or their second, with many different
>accents. Anyone who has had a job ike that can testify to how
>difficult it can be to understand, or make yourself understood,
>to someone who speaks a different base form of the language:
>different language, different vocabulary, different customs.

I once called someone in Louisiana over an undelivered mail order
purchase, and even though we both thought we were speaking English
neither of us could understand the other -- she found my New England
accent just as impenetrable as I found her bayou accent.

>One custom is offended if you use an honorific such as Ms or Mr,
>demanding you use his or her first name. Someone else would be
>horrified if you didn't "Miz" every use of her surname.

There are people who call me "Mr. Lawrence" and think it's an
honorific.

Where I grew up, Mr. [FIRSTNAME] meant you were a child, probably no
older than thirteen, being addressed by an adult; using that form to
an adult was a deliberate insult. Adults were always, always Mr. (or
Ms.) [LASTNAME]. When I was little I wasn't really sure all adults
HAD first names.

But apparently in at least parts of the South and Midwest the usage is
so ingrained that I can't make them stop or switch to "Mr. Evans." It
really, REALLY annoys me.

In one case it was partly because they'd known my father and wanted to
distinguish between us, so I cut them some slack, but usually it just
irritated the hell out of me, and more than once I hung up or walked
away if it continued after a couple of warnings. I am NOT "Mr.
Lawrence." T.E. or D.H. Lawrence might be; I'm not.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <pcurubdl69ptclkva...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

Yes. At least for friends of the family. We were always instructed to
call a couple who were good friends of my father (and were my sister's
Godparents) "Mr. Claude" & "Miss Irene". (Not "Mrs. Irene"). I don't believe
it's that common anymore though.

Also, teachers had a special form -- they were always "Miss Lastname"
regardless of marital status.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[hamis...@gmail.com]

or sex?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <7bb89eff-7f0f-4da5...@googlegroups.com>,

That essentially was not an issue in elementary school. Apparently it's
still only an issue 2.8% of the time today.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 23:01:43 -0500, David DeLaney
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote
in<news:kqKdnQRl6sw6fnDK...@earthlink.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 2016-09-29, Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> On the other hand, people are delighted when you can
>> pronounce local names correctly, like not butchering
>> "La Jolla."

> They are even more delighted, I find, when you pronounce
> their name correctly without having heard it first. I
> get a few "You said my name right! Nobody EVER says it
> right!"s a week.

Quite a few years ago I had one student whose jaw visibly
dropped when I pronounced her surname more or less
correctly as I went through the roll the first time. I
wasn’t really surprised when she said that it was literally
the first time that a teacher had got it right: the name
was <Xhunga>. It’s Albanian, and Albanian <xh> is
pronounced like the <j> in <judge>.

[...]

[Brian M. Scott]

On 30 Sep 2016 06:05:18 GMT, "Ted Nolan <tednolan>"
<t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote
in<news:e56dku...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <7bb89eff-7f0f-4da5...@googlegroups.com>,
> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 3:53:42 PM UTC+10, Ted
>> Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

[...]

>>> Also, teachers had a special form -- they were always
>>> "Miss Lastname" regardless of marital status.

>> or sex?

> That essentially was not an issue in elementary school.
> Apparently it's still only an issue 2.8% of the time
> today.

I don’t think that I quite realized at the time how unusual
it was, especially back in the late 1950s, that I had two
male teachers in the first six grades, in fourth and sixth
grades. Both were very good teachers, too.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 00:09:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEAJ4...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> There was a television series some years ago, "The Story
> of English," hosted by newsman Robert MacNeil. It
> contained a scene in which MacNeil, standing on the
> US/Canada border at Niagara Falls, is talking about
> different subdialects of English and says, "This
> building over here (points) is called a house [US
> pronounciation], but that one (pointing across the
> border) is called a house [Canadian pronunciation]".

I used to know a topologist who told me that his young
daughter once asked him, ‘Daddy, when I go up a hill, do I
[klaIm] it, or [kl@Im] it, or do I [kla:m] it?’ He taught
in Canada but had close southern relatives with whom she
had spent a lot of time.

[...]

> One of the things I learned, studying linguistics back in
> the day, is that human languages are about seventy

> percent redundant. [...]

Which is why the Speedtalk in Heinlein’s novella ‘Gulf’
couldn’t actually work: it had far too little redundancy.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <e56cv2...@mid.individual.net>,

Oh, when I was in school (as I said upthread, about 65 years ago)
they were always Miss Lastname because after they got married
they quit teaching. I did have one teacher who got married at
Christmas, and we had to learn her married name. (And no, she
didn't, as they would've said back then, "have" to get married,
because she definitely would've been showing by June, and she
wasn't.)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <pcurubdl69ptclkva...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>

>>One custom is offended if you use an honorific such as Ms or Mr,
>>demanding you use his or her first name. Someone else would be
>>horrified if you didn't "Miz" every use of her surname.
>
>There are people who call me "Mr. Lawrence" and think it's an
>honorific.

Do they come from the Deep South?

>
>Where I grew up, Mr. [FIRSTNAME] meant you were a child, probably no
>older than thirteen, being addressed by an adult; using that form to
>an adult was a deliberate insult. Adults were always, always Mr. (or
>Ms.) [LASTNAME]. When I was little I wasn't really sure all adults
>HAD first names.

And then there are the adults who, if you call them Mr. Lastname,
say, "Oh, no, that's my father, call me Fred."

>
>But apparently in at least parts of the South and Midwest the usage is
>so ingrained that I can't make them stop or switch to "Mr. Evans." It
>really, REALLY annoys me.

Whereas in the schools my grandson has attended (at eight, he's
been in four: they keep moving him), the children generally
address the teachers as Ms. or Mr. Firstname. When I was a
schoolkid, 65 years or so ago, it was always Miss or Mr.
Lastname. But I think the use of Miss or Mr. Firstname has a
history, because there were kids' television programs way back
when that used that form.

(N.B. that was when most television was shot in New York. Any
elderly New Yorkers remember that usage?)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <1aouiwnkh147s.qin50ie1t24k$.d...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 00:09:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEAJ4...@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> There was a television series some years ago, "The Story
>> of English," hosted by newsman Robert MacNeil. It
>> contained a scene in which MacNeil, standing on the
>> US/Canada border at Niagara Falls, is talking about
>> different subdialects of English and says, "This
>> building over here (points) is called a house [US
>> pronounciation], but that one (pointing across the
>> border) is called a house [Canadian pronunciation]".
>
>I used to know a topologist who told me that his young
>daughter once asked him, ‘Daddy, when I go up a hill, do I
>[klaIm] it, or [kl@Im] it, or do I [kla:m] it?’ He taught
>in Canada but had close southern relatives with whom she
>had spent a lot of time.
>
>[...]
>
>> One of the things I learned, studying linguistics back in
>> the day, is that human languages are about seventy
>> percent redundant. [...]
>
>Which is why the Speedtalk in Heinlein’s novella ‘Gulf’
>couldn’t actually work: it had far too little redundancy.

Also, I don't think most people who grew up using some natural
language, with a selected set of phonemes, could get used to
using every possible sound the mouth can make. (Did Speedtalk
use tongue-clicks too??)

[Greg Goss]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On 30 Sep 2016 06:05:18 GMT, "Ted Nolan <tednolan>"

>> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 3:53:42 PM UTC+10, Ted
>>> Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> Also, teachers had a special form -- they were always
>>>> "Miss Lastname" regardless of marital status.
>
>>> or sex?
>
>> That essentially was not an issue in elementary school.
>> Apparently it's still only an issue 2.8% of the time
>> today.
>
>I don’t think that I quite realized at the time how unusual
>it was, especially back in the late 1950s, that I had two
>male teachers in the first six grades, in fourth and sixth
>grades. Both were very good teachers, too.

Hmmm. Didn't even know that was supposed to be a stereotype. My
elementary school went to Grade 7. I had female teachers for 1 & 2.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 12:56:57 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
in<news:oEBIM...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <1aouiwnkh147s.qin50ie1t24k$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 00:09:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
>><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEAJ4...@kithrup.com>
>>in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

>>> One of the things I learned, studying linguistics back in
>>> the day, is that human languages are about seventy
>>> percent redundant. [...]

>> Which is why the Speedtalk in Heinlein's novella 'Gulf'
>> couldn't actually work: it had far too little
>> redundancy.

> Also, I don't think most people who grew up using some
> natural language, with a selected set of phonemes, could
> get used to using every possible sound the mouth can
> make.

At least for story purposes I think that we can assume that
this would not have been an insurmountable problem for the
exceptionally gifted individuals involved.

> (Did Speedtalk use tongue-clicks too??)

It’s been a long time since I last read the story, but I
don’t think that we know. We got just one very short
example of it, when Joe tries to reproduce something that
he overheard. If I remember correctly, it was approximated
by (ASCII) IPA [ipbIt], and there was an implication that
this transcription might have been insufficiently precise:
it wasn’t understood until he made a special effort to
reproduce the original intonations as closely as he could
remember them. But I don’t think that we were given any
other indication of the phonology.

[Don Kuenz]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <pcurubdl69ptclkva...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>
>>>One custom is offended if you use an honorific such as Ms or Mr,
>>>demanding you use his or her first name. Someone else would be
>>>horrified if you didn't "Miz" every use of her surname.
>>
>>There are people who call me "Mr. Lawrence" and think it's an
>>honorific.
>
> Do they come from the Deep South?

Don't people in the Deep North use Mister/Miss/Mrs to denote a higher
rank of domestic servant? (First names are used for the lowest rank?)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

Well done, thou good and faithful servant . . . enter thou into the
joy of they lord. - Matthew

[Bill Dugan]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>Californians will give you their zip code and the name of their
>town, and be surprised when you ask "State?"

In almost all cases the zip code is enough to determine the state. It
is slightly surprising when 21st century data entry systems don't take
advantage of that.

[Don Bruder]

In article <1014a038-720a-4ca8...@googlegroups.com>,

"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:51:49 PM UTC-7, Don Bruder wrote:
> > In article <15d4bd6a-0f09-49e0...@googlegroups.com>,
> > hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 10:51:21 AM UTC+10, Don Bruder wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > > > Personally, whether you wanna call it "Mace" or "Man-A-Way",
>
> The latter is sexist anyway. ;>)

Since when have I ever done so much as imagining I might consider the
idea of pretending that there's any chance I'd do so much as thinking
about putting an act that might look like I was trying to be politically
correct? :)

>
> > > > I can't take it seriously. I think my sig probably covers my stance
> > > > on personal defense products adequately. :) At least, it's INTENDED
> > > > to... Can't speak for whether anyone else actually "gets it".
>
> Thing is, those that "get it" *before* making you need it because they saw
> it? You never know about them.

True enough, at least in the case of Open Carry.

>
> I think that's a good thing. OTOH they just go looking for an easier
> target. No doubt Liberals consider that selfish of you.

The liberals can go chase themselves.

>
> > > > (Hint: Because a cop is too heavy to carry and doesn't fit on my belt)
>
> No point in carrying a cop anyway:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-
> constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

I'm quite aware of that decision. When you get right down to where the
rubber meets the road, it's just a restatement of my long-held belief
that when they aren't acting in their primary capacity as municipal
income-generators (by way of writing tickets) cops mainly exist to pick
up the pieces and file the after-action reports. If they manage to jug
the perpetrators of crimes after the crimes have been committed, that's
just an "added bonus". (and all-too-often, dumb luck)

>
> > > Yes, because there's no possible situation which guns aren't the answer
> > > for...
> >
> > More like because when a gun is the proper tool for the situation,
> > nothing else will do. Along with the fact that when one is needed, it's
> > usually needed *RIGHT NOW*, not "whenever dispatch can get an officer to
> > you".
>
> That's why we have the phrase "self-protection".

Yep. Expecting someone else, regardless of what pretty uniform they
might wear, to look out for your safety is stupidity of the purest ray
serene.

>
> > Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that you and I have gone 'round and
> > 'round this particular mulberry bush before. And as I recall, neither of
> > us budged the other even a fraction - Nothing has changed since then.
> > I'm pro-, you're anti-, and that's the way of it. Do you truly want me
> > to beat you about the head and shoulders with the reality-club again, or
> > can you be satisfied with walking away and calling it a wash?
>
> There *is* a Presidential election coming up, and the anti-gun chorus has
> already been cued up...
>
> Just sayin'.

168 grains at a time...

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <oEBIG...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

Schulz did an ongoing series of strips about Linus's infatuation
with his teacher "Miss Othmar" which included her eventual
marriage. When Charlie Brown questioned his continued use
of the name "Miss Othmar", Linus insisted that that was
her real name and the rest was a lot of hokum (essentially,
obviously funnier when he Schulz did it).

I don't think he ever did get the egg shells to her..