Young People Read Old SFF: Desertion by Clifford D. Simak

[James Nicoll]

I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
sure I did not post this one.

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[a425couple]

"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ns20gi$d24$1...@reader2.panix.com...

>I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
> sure I did not post this one.
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion

> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/

I tried looking (at least some).
Have you done any reviews of Silverberg's books?

For whatever reason, I'm generally finding the older
stuff, more pleasing for me to read, than the modern
(except for Ryk's).

[James Nicoll]

In article <ns6f7...@news3.newsguy.com>,

Only Nightwings. The novella, not the novel. I do have a shelf of
Silverberg but I have not made the time.
--

My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <ns6oqo$fcb$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <ns6f7...@news3.newsguy.com>,
>a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:ns20gi$d24$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>>>I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
>>> sure I did not post this one.
>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion
>>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>>
>>I tried looking (at least some).
>>Have you done any reviews of Silverberg's books?
>>
>>For whatever reason, I'm generally finding the older
>>stuff, more pleasing for me to read, than the modern
>>(except for Ryk's).
>>
>
>Only Nightwings. The novella, not the novel. I do have a shelf of
>Silverberg but I have not made the time.

Just had a brain freeze and was thinking "Nightwings"? wasn't that
a Bob Segar song.

And you could almost make it fit too:

"And wings of her own sitting way up high
Way up back and high.."
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 24 Sep 2016 20:54:17 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan

<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <ns6oqo$fcb$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <ns6f7...@news3.newsguy.com>,
>>a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>>news:ns20gi$d24$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>>>>I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
>>>> sure I did not post this one.
>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion
>>>> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>>>
>>>I tried looking (at least some).
>>>Have you done any reviews of Silverberg's books?
>>>
>>>For whatever reason, I'm generally finding the older
>>>stuff, more pleasing for me to read, than the modern
>>>(except for Ryk's).
>>
>>Only Nightwings. The novella, not the novel. I do have a shelf of
>>Silverberg but I have not made the time.
>
>Just had a brain freeze and was thinking "Nightwings"? wasn't that
>a Bob Segar song.

Seger.

I used to get mistaken for him, back in the '80s. Overheard a couple
of teenage girls in a record shop trying to get up their nerve to ask
for my autograph once -- they thought I was Seger.

My own brother-in-law saw Seger in concert once, and asked his wife,
"What's your brother doing on the stage?"

Alas, I could never sing like him, and we've aged differently.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <1vqdubdn6j7rp103f...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,

D'oh!

'Segar' of course is E. C. Segar, the brilliant creator of "Popeye".

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 3:13:41 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 24 Sep 2016 20:54:17 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:

> >Just had a brain freeze and was thinking "Nightwings"? wasn't that
> >a Bob Segar song.

> Seger.

Indeed, E. C. Segar created Popeye, but when I saw this exchange, I thought of
Pete Seeger.

John Savard

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Thanks! :)



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Lynn McGuire]

On 9/22/2016 8:28 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
> sure I did not post this one.
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion

I read _The Werewolf Principle_ by Clifford D. Simak in 2015 and really enjoyed it. My review title was "Space Opera, meet Urban
Fantasy". No new printings though, only used.
https://www.amazon.com/Werewolf-Principle-Clifford-D-Simak/dp/0786701005/

The text of my review was "A free standing book, no series that I know of. Space Opera, meet Urban Fantasy. Or, does it?"

"I loved the portrayal of the Earth in 2466? AD. An amazingly positive story of a utopia spreading to the stars. And, not very dated
even though the book was published in 1967. People's homes resettling themselves constantly using anti-gravity drives is totally cool."

I will see if I have _City_ in my collection, looks good.

Lynn

[William Hyde]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:14:47 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 9/22/2016 8:28 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > I have lost track of the last one of these I posted but I am pretty
> > sure I did not post this one.
> >
> > http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/desertion
>
> I read _The Werewolf Principle_ by Clifford D. Simak in 2015 and really enjoyed it.

I don't believe I've ever read a Simak I didn't like. Brian Aldiss is particularly fond of "Ring Around the Sun", a Hugo-worthy novel published in a non-Hugo year, and I agree.

Strongly recommended.

William Hyde

[Lynn McGuire]

URL please ? I do not see it on Amazon.

Lynn

[Chris Buckley]

Hmm.. My search of Amazon (by title only) of _Ring Around the Sun_
yielded a good number of used book hits, many of which were
ridiculously priced. Abebooks.com had lots of copies at much more
reasonable prices.

Chris

[William Hyde]

Sorry about the delay, I missed your response.

abebooks has some available:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=simak&sts=t&tn=ring+around+the+sun

William Hyde

[James Nicoll]

Rather than dole these out one at a time, here is everything after
Desertion:

That Only a Mother by Judith Merril

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/that-only-a-mother

With Folded Hands by Jack Williamson

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/with-folded-hands

Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority

All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/all-summer-in-a-day

[Don Kuenz]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> Rather than dole these out one at a time, here is everything after
> Desertion:
>
> That Only a Mother by Judith Merril
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/that-only-a-mother
>
> With Folded Hands by Jack Williamson
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/with-folded-hands
>
> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>
> All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/all-summer-in-a-day

All of these stories are new to me. Bradbury's one of my favorite
authors, "All Summer" appears in the March 1954 F&SF issue of my pulp
collection, all paths lead to the Bradbury ...

### time out to read "All Summer in a Day" ###

This story brings to mind "The Long Rain," which Bradbury wrote a few
years earlier. To expound on Lisa's take, this story lays bare the
brutality of mob mentality.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

For two hundred years, the Judges of England sat on the Bench,
condemning to the penalty of death every man, woman, and child who stole
property to the value of five shillings; and, during all that time, not
one Judge ever remonstrated against the law. We English are a nation of
brutes, and ought to be exterminated to the last man. - John Bright

[David Johnston]

On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

>
> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>
> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>

I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.

[William Hyde]

Clarke pointed out in one of his essays that the resources to build one V2 would build six of Germany's most modern fighter aircraft. Not counting development costs.

William Hyde

[James Nicoll]

In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,

For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
Lensmen.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>
>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>
>>
>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
>> interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>
>>
>
> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
> Lensmen.
>

There were FBI references in Lensman?

[Kevrob]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 4:48:48 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
> >>>
> >>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
> >>>
> >>
> >> I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
> >> interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
> > Lensmen.
> >
>
> There were FBI references in Lensman?
>
>

Sure. Once alone on Arisia, Mentor dressed up in women's clothing,
and candidates for the Lens were frequently Catholics and Mormons,
with accounting degrees. :)

Kevin R

[Magewolf]

On 10/10/2016 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>
>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>
>>
>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
>> interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>
>>
>
> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
> Lensmen.
>

I have been reading these with great interest but I am having a hard
time understanding some of the young people's thinking. When I was
young ,oh those many years ago, I routinely read books and stories that
where written 20,30,100,300,1000 years or more before I was born and I
never had the problem understanding that the past was a different
country that many of them seem to. If I ran across something I did not
understand I tried to find out about it which meant asking my parents,
looking it up in the encyclopedia, or going to the library. Yet it
seems any differences from their experience knocks them out of a story
and they have no desire to find out why that difference was there.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <2016...@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:

>
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury
>>
>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/all-summer-in-a-day
>
>All of these stories are new to me. Bradbury's one of my favorite
>authors, "All Summer" appears in the March 1954 F&SF issue of my pulp
>collection, all paths lead to the Bradbury ...
>
>### time out to read "All Summer in a Day" ###
>
>This story brings to mind "The Long Rain," which Bradbury wrote a few
>years earlier. To expound on Lisa's take, this story lays bare the
>brutality of mob mentality.

Over on File 770, someone recommended a fanfic story on Archive of Our
Own which continues Margot's story past the end of "All Summer".
It's called "The Sun Shone on Venus".

<http://archiveofourown.org/collections/yuletide2010/works/139844>

It's a bridge, in a sense, between "All Summer" and "Long Rain" -- there's
a setting detail in the latter not referred to in the former. I thought
it was really good.

--
David Goldfarb |"Thanks for the Dadaist pep talk. I feel
goldf...@gmail.com | much more abstract now."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Kevrob]

Me, too, but I _liked_ history, and also stories set in a past I wanted
to learn about. I wound up with a history B.A. I remember some of
my fellow students had no use at all for history, unless it were the
history of something they were otherwise interested in: sports, music,
films, for example. Even then, it was often just a game of trivia
for them. They didn't want to learn about, let us say, the rapid
growth in transportation and communication in the mid-to-late 19th
century. Knowing about that might help put similar growth in our
time in perspective, which would be something they would have to deal
with, and probably still are. As an SF fan and a history buff, I see
looking ahead and doing thought experiments about the effects of
scientific discovery and new tech and examining the roots of how we
managed to get where we are now equally fascinating.

You do tend to sot where the plot is going if someone rewrites
a historical epoch as "fill-in-the-blank" in space/alternate world.

Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

Be fair - their parents will be baffled by this
material, too!

[David Johnston]

I'll note that their reactions pretty much back up the original claim
that these stories aren't what draw new readers into sf.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Hmmmm, that must've been cut from my edition!

[lal_truckee]

On 10/10/16 1:52 PM, Magewolf wrote:
> ... it seems any differences from their experience knocks them out of a
> story

I admire Nicoll's intention, but I too have noticed this particular
group of "young people" seem to have great difficulty stepping outside
the box and approaching the stories as an opportunity to visit an alien
world in multiple senses. They all seem bent on judging the works by
modern standards while searching intently for commentary on current events.

I'm not sure if it's the particular group, or universal condition of
modern youth. It also occurs to me that those open to visiting
"historical alien worlds" might have disqualified themselves by a
tendency to have already discovered SFF.

Anyway, it's been a fun series of posts to follow. Much superior to the
continual undercurrent of trolling and insults to which we have fallen prey.

[James Nicoll]

In article <ntguqt$gv0$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>>
>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
>>> interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
>> Lensmen.
>>
>
> There were FBI references in Lensman?
>

That deal with space gangsters avoiding the law by using the ftl flivvers
to leg it to another jurisdiction? And how there needed to be a galactic
level law enforcement organization to deal with that? That's basically
the situation in the US after cars came on the scene.

[Don Kuenz]

David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> In article <2016...@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury
>>>
>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/all-summer-in-a-day
>>
>>All of these stories are new to me. Bradbury's one of my favorite
>>authors, "All Summer" appears in the March 1954 F&SF issue of my pulp
>>collection, all paths lead to the Bradbury ...
>>
>>### time out to read "All Summer in a Day" ###
>>
>>This story brings to mind "The Long Rain," which Bradbury wrote a few
>>years earlier. To expound on Lisa's take, this story lays bare the
>>brutality of mob mentality.
>
> Over on File 770, someone recommended a fanfic story on Archive of Our
> Own which continues Margot's story past the end of "All Summer".
> It's called "The Sun Shone on Venus".
>
> <http://archiveofourown.org/collections/yuletide2010/works/139844>
>
> It's a bridge, in a sense, between "All Summer" and "Long Rain" -- there's
> a setting detail in the latter not referred to in the former. I thought
> it was really good.

That was a very good story. It kept me engaged and in suspense until the
end.

Bradbury artfully uses words to paint scenes in my mind. With a few
sentences suspension of disbelief erases the hard science implausibility
of a human colony on Venus. Hard science becomes irrelevant as the story
unfolds.

My re-read of Cook's _Brain_ (this time with _Dorland's Illustrated
Medical Dictionary_ on my left and Netter's _Atlas of Human Anatomy_ on
my right) recently commenced. Cook's words also paint scenes in my mind.
At the start Cook manages to put me right in the scene as an invisible
man beside Katherine.

Katherine Collins mounted the three steps from the sidewalk
with a fragile sense of resolve. She reached the combination
glass and stainless steel door and pushed. But it didn't open.
She leaned back, gazed up at the lintel, and read the incised
inscription, "Hobson University Medical Center: For the Sick
and Infirm of the City of New York." For Katherine's way of
thinking it should have read, "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter
Here."
Turning around, her pupils narrowed in the morning March
sunlight; her urge was to flee and return to her warm
apartment. The last place in the world that she wanted to go
was back into the hospital. But before she could move,
several patients mounted the steps and brushed past her.
Without pausing they opened the door to the main clinic and
were instantly devoured by the ominous bulk of the building.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

The whole creation is essentially subjective, and the dream is the
theater where the dreamer is at once scene, actor, prompter, stage
manager, author, audience, and critic. - Jung

[Cryptoengineer]

lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:nth6ch$9hk$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 10/10/16 1:52 PM, Magewolf wrote:
>> ... it seems any differences from their experience knocks them out of
>> a story
>
> I admire Nicoll's intention, but I too have noticed this particular
> group of "young people" seem to have great difficulty stepping outside
> the box and approaching the stories as an opportunity to visit an
> alien world in multiple senses. They all seem bent on judging the
> works by modern standards while searching intently for commentary on
> current events.
>
> I'm not sure if it's the particular group, or universal condition of
> modern youth. It also occurs to me that those open to visiting
> "historical alien worlds" might have disqualified themselves by a
> tendency to have already discovered SFF.

I think this last is a critical point. These stories were written
for the pulps, with an audience which was mostly well read SF fans.

I suspect that even 50 years ago, a group of young people who weren't
already into 'that crazy Buck Rogers stuff' might have well had the
same reactions as a group of young mundanes does today, modulo a few
things such as acceptance of casual sexism.

pt

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 2:52:55 PM UTC-6, Magewolf wrote:
> Yet it
> seems any differences from their experience knocks them out of a story
> and they have no desire to find out why that difference was there.

Maybe because they don't find the story interesting enough to be worth any effort
in the first place?

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

My two reactions are "Wow, not sinister at all :-)"
and "Wow, a building that eats people? That is creepy."
Followed by "She should go tell somebody." Also
"Rod Serling. Or Stephen King."

[Titus G]

On 11/10/16 12:30, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ntguqt$gv0$1...@dont-email.me>, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>, David Johnston
>>> <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about
>>>> Hitler's interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>>
>>> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI
>>> references in Lensmen.
>>
>> There were FBI references in Lensman?
>>
> That deal with space gangsters avoiding the law by using the ftl
> flivvers to leg it to another jurisdiction? And how there needed to
> be a galactic level law enforcement organization to deal with that?

Using FTL Flivvers is a basic human right as enshrined in our
Constitution and despite our condemnation of space gangsters, we
strongly oppose yet another federal control of not only our members, but
also the general public.
FTL Flivvers Owners Association of America Inc.

> That's basically the situation in the US after cars came on the
> scene.

Are you sure about this?
I have never seen a car with an FTL Flivver.

(This interesting thread is why I keep reading rasfw despite all the
crap and politics. Keep it coming, James.)

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/10/16 7:30 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ntguqt$gv0$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>>>
>>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about Hitler's
>>>> interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI references in
>>> Lensmen.
>>>
>>
>> There were FBI references in Lensman?
>>
> That deal with space gangsters avoiding the law by using the ftl flivvers
> to leg it to another jurisdiction? And how there needed to be a galactic
> level law enforcement organization to deal with that? That's basically
> the situation in the US after cars came on the scene.
>

I ... guess, but it's also one of the ways criminals used to escape
punishment in other times and places, by running to some location like
another country (which if it were a USA problem would make it the CIA,
not the FBI). The real focus of the problem was in the need to be able
to have an unforgeable means of identification that would span worlds,
and hopefully also help communicate, and the secondary but very real
need to have the people given this extra-world authority be trustworthy.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 9:50:00 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> My two reactions are "Wow, not sinister at all :-)"
> and "Wow, a building that eats people? That is creepy."
> Followed by "She should go tell somebody." Also
> "Rod Serling. Or Stephen King."

Hey, she told Robin Cook. That's about the same thing.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 10:50:37 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:

> Using FTL Flivvers is a basic human right as enshrined in our
> Constitution

Unfortunately, no.

From Article VI of the Constitution:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in
Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the
Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the
Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or
Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

From the "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the
Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial
Bodies", to which the United States is a signatory:

And Article VI of that treaty states:

States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for
national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial
bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by
non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are
carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty.
The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the moon
and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing
supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are
carried on in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, by an
international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty
shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties
to the Treaty participating in such organization.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 6:35:08 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 10:50:37 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
>
> > Using FTL Flivvers is a basic human right as enshrined in our
> > Constitution
>
> Unfortunately, no.
>
> From Article VI of the Constitution:
>
> This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in
> Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the
> Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the
> Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or
> Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Note, however, that the second occurrence of the word "Constitution" in that sentence refers only to the Constitution *of any State*, and therefore it is correct that this clause does not allow the Constitution of the United States to be overridden by the ratification of a treaty.

John Savard

[Don Kuenz]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 00:57:54 UTC+1, Don Kuenz wrote:

<snip>

"A building that eats people?" is right on the money. ;o) But it's
actually the descriptive details, the adjectives and adverbs, that paint
a picture of the setting in my mind. For that particular passage my mind
juxtaposes something akin to the old May D&F building in downtown
Denver with the Barnes-Jewish Hospital in Saint Louis and drops the
composition into NYC.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The soul that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing boy.

- Wordsworth

[Kevrob]

Smith's stories were written before the "Outer Space Treaty" was proposed,
signed and/or ratified by real world states. In a Lensmen timeline,
will that have happened on Terra, let alone among star-systems?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

Kevin R

[James Nicoll]

In article <ntidve$atn$1...@dont-email.me>,

The parallel between this particular justification for the Patrol and
the FBI only became apparent to me when I saw a biopic about Hoover
where he had a short speech about the problem cars and state lines
created for law enforcement. It reminded me a lot of this:

But how how can legal processes work efficiently work at all, for
that matter when a man can commit a murder or a pirate can loot a
spaceship and be a hundred parsecs away before the crime is even
discovered? How can a Tellurian John Law find a criminal on a
strange world that knows nothing whatever of our Patrol, with a
completely alien language maybe no language at all where it takes
months even to find out who and where if any the native police
officers are?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

You have a link to the speech? Because the above Lensman paragraph
presents problems that I wouldn't expect to have reasonable parallels in
cross-state crime ("alien language/no language" and "months to find out
who/if native police" are the obvious ones).

[Joe Bernstein]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 2:49:38 PM UTC-7, Kevrob wrote:

> On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 4:52:55 PM UTC-4, Magewolf wrote:

> > I have been reading these with great interest but I am having a hard
> > time understanding some of the young people's thinking. When I was
> > young ,oh those many years ago, I routinely read books and stories that
> > where written 20,30,100,300,1000 years or more before I was born and I
> > never had the problem understanding that the past was a different
> > country that many of them seem to. If I ran across something I did not
> > understand I tried to find out about it which meant asking my parents,
> > looking it up in the encyclopedia, or going to the library. Yet it
> > seems any differences from their experience knocks them out of a story
> > and they have no desire to find out why that difference was there.

> Me, too, but I _liked_ history, and also stories set in a past I wanted
> to learn about. I wound up with a history B.A. I remember some of
> my fellow students had no use at all for history, unless it were the
> history of something they were otherwise interested in: sports, music,
> films, for example. Even then, it was often just a game of trivia
> for them. They didn't want to learn about, let us say, the rapid
> growth in transportation and communication in the mid-to-late 19th
> century. Knowing about that might help put similar growth in our
> time in perspective, which would be something they would have to deal
> with, and probably still are.

You're outlining what my massively incomplete reading suggests may be
the history of historical fiction.

Among the writers in my current log, two relevant here are Ann
Radcliffe and Charles Major. In the 1790s, Radcliffe wrote Gothics
set in the past, but not only were her characters all essentially her
contemporaries in antique dress (most of them extemporise late 18th
century English poetry, in fact), she got historical facts wrong
several times. Most spectacularly, in <The Romance of the Forest>
she sets an idyll of Catholic-Protestant harmony exactly where, in
our world, Catholics had massacred Protestants three years before her
novel's supposed date. This was criticised at the time, and she
shaped up for her later books, including the best-known (and arguably
best), <The Mysteries of Udolpho>.

Charles Major wrote a book titled, I kid you not, <When Knighthood Was
in Flower>, published in 1898, that's full of Mauve Decade cynicism.
He made it pretty obvious that his historical errors were intentional;
to quote from my log (on a different book of his):

"This book is set during the reign of Charles II of England and
Scotland. The year in question must include the sale of Dunkirk by
that monarch to Louis XIV of France in 1662, and also must be after
both Nell Gwynn, born 1650, and Sarah Jennings Churchill, the future
Duchess of Marlborough, born 1660, came of age. Oh, and the Duchess
of York must still be Anne Hyde, who died in 1671."

His characters weren't always late-19th or early 20th-century
characters, but they were never the mediaeval or early modern people
they were supposed to be, either.

I've seen it said that Naomi Mitchison's historicals of the 1930s
always featured contemporary rather than historical characters, and
were faulted for it, but I vaguely remember bouncing off her <The
Corn King and the Spring Queen> for its strangeness. I've read post-
WWII fiction by Bryher and by Rosemary Sutcliff (the latter
publishing technically, and at first actually, for kids) which made
serious efforts to depict historical characters, and although I
haven't read Mary Renault, I'd expect that to be true of her too.

But even today, historical fiction not only often gets the facts wrong
whether from ignorance or intent, but routinely puts moderns into past
times. Some writers look for ways to explain their characters'
modernity - I have no doubt, in particular, that there were, in fact,
English-speaking men of the kind called, in the 1970s, "sensitive" in
the period 1750-1850, but more have been written about than could
possibly have lived then. Some just ignore the issue.

> As an SF fan and a history buff, I see
> looking ahead and doing thought experiments about the effects of
> scientific discovery and new tech and examining the roots of how we
> managed to get where we are now equally fascinating.

I doubt it's an accident that historical fiction that really imagines
its way into the past is, by this (fundamentally ill-informed)
analysis at least, more or less contemporary with science fiction and
secondary world fantasy, and I doubt it's an accident either that so
many writers of good historical fiction have also written one or both
of the others.

- Of the above-named, Mitchison wrote both, Sutcliff fantasy.
- Of those not, note Gillian Bradshaw, Sharan Newman, and C. S.
Lewis's <Till We Have Faces>, which though fantasy is also a
serious attempt to imagine his way into a past.
- And then there are writers like John Crowley and Avram Davidson
whose good historical fiction is also spec-fic (though not, in
Crowley's case, in his more recent work).
This is, of course, *also* an incomplete list.

Joe Bernstein

--
Joe Bernstein, writer and tax preparer <j...@sfbooks.com>

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:ntidve$atn$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 10/10/16 7:30 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <ntguqt$gv0$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/10/16 3:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> In article <ntgon8$ovl$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> David Johnston <Davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2016 8:05 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Superiority by Arthur C. Clarke
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/superiority
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I see that none of them caught that the story was about
>>>>> Hitler's interest in wunderwaffen being counterproductive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For much the same reason I managed to miss the blatent FBI
>>>> references in Lensmen.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There were FBI references in Lensman?
>>>
>> That deal with space gangsters avoiding the law by using the
>> ftl flivvers to leg it to another jurisdiction? And how there
>> needed to be a galactic level law enforcement organization to
>> deal with that? That's basically the situation in the US after
>> cars came on the scene.
>>
>
> I ... guess, but it's also one of the ways criminals used
> to escape
> punishment in other times and places, by running to some
> location like another country (which if it were a USA problem
> would make it the CIA, not the FBI).

Er, not really, no. The division between CIA and FBI isn't foreign
vs domestic, it's more intelligence vs
counterintelligce/counterinsurgency. (That is, of course, a gross
oversimplification, but it's the general principle) The FBI has
over five dozen legal attaché offices around the world, and has had
special agents (all FBI agenst are special agents) in foreign
countries for more than 70 years. And really, where criminals who
have fled fled the US is concerned, it's more the State
Department's thing than anyone else's, but any overt prusuit would
start with the FBI, not the CIA.

https://www.fbi.gov/about/leadership-and-structure/international-
operations

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[David Johnston]

Well obviously. But Hoover did have an argument justifying the expansion
of the Bureau to deal with the increased problem of criminals using the
automobile to cross state lines, thereby escaping city and state law
enforcement jurisdiction.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Oh, I don't doubt that, but the Lensman situation strikes me as so
different in many ways that I can't really see it as a "blatant FBI
reference" unless Doc actually said that was his inspiration. (Which he
may have, but I've never seen anything on it). If Gharlane were here
he'd doubtless know right off the bat.

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 10:27:28 AM UTC-6, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> You have a link to the speech? Because the above Lensman paragraph
> presents problems that I wouldn't expect to have reasonable parallels in
> cross-state crime ("alien language/no language" and "months to find out
> who/if native police" are the obvious ones).

That's true, but since the threat the Lensmen were dealing with crossed the
equivalent of national boundaries, rather than simply borders within a single
nation, it makes sense that they would be facing a more daunting problem.

It would still be analogous to the rationale behind the FBI - but the same
could be said of Interpol as well. Still, if the establishment of the FBI was
something of recent memory when Smith was writing, I'd tend to accept the
notion made sense.

John Savard

[David DeLaney]

Well, duh - they go FASTER than light. You have to listen for the slight
breeze of their inertialess passing.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
website on VIC is down, probably for good - oh well/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 10/11/2016 2:51 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2016-10-11, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 11/10/16 12:30, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> That's basically the situation in the US after cars came on the
>>> scene.
>>
>> Are you sure about this?
>> I have never seen a car with an FTL Flivver.
>
> Well, duh - they go FASTER than light. You have to listen for the slight
> breeze of their inertialess passing.
>

"Slight" breeze? I'm pretty sure the "inertialess" part only applies to
the vessel and what inside it, not to whatever it displaces as it moves.


--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Fall 2016 survey began Sep 01 and will end Nov 30

[Robert Bannister]

Is overt pursuit in a foreign country legal?
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Quadibloc]

Um, the illegal stuff is covert pursuit, i.e. Israel chasing Eichmann.

If one is overtly pursuing a criminal in a foreign country, I don't think he
meant FBI agents in squad cars with handcuffs - but instead overt actions aimed
at chasing down the suspect, and those aren't perhaps what you were thinking of
from the word "pursuit" - contacting local authorities, applying for
extradition, and so on.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

On 10/11/2016 6:55 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/11/2016 2:51 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2016-10-11, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/16 12:30, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> That's basically the situation in the US after cars came on the
>>>> scene.
>>>
>>> Are you sure about this?
>>> I have never seen a car with an FTL Flivver.
>>
>> Well, duh - they go FASTER than light. You have to listen for the slight
>> breeze of their inertialess passing.
>>
> "Slight" breeze? I'm pretty sure the "inertialess" part only applies to
> the vessel and what inside it, not to whatever it displaces as it moves.
>
>

Nope. The inertialess drive stops the moment the vessel touches any
atom, only to then make the atom inertialess, at which point it bounces
away at faster than light speeds...but not very far before it regains
it's inertia and original speed

[David Johnston]

The FBI agents are just there to liase with local law enforcement, ask
them to arrest extraditable fugitives and sometimes escort them back.
The Patrol would be less constrained since there were a lot more worlds
that didn't have advanced enough technology that their opinions need to
be considered when deciding to extract a fugitive, and Civilization grew
really fast to encompass any technologically advanced worlds that
weren't part of the enemy.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
news:e65ks9...@mid.individual.net:

Of course it is, if you do not unrealistically limit the definition
of "pursuit." The legats work with local law enforcement, mostly,
and a lot of their duties seem to involve traininga. But "overt"
means open, above board. In other words, usually extradition. If
that's not possible, and we want the perp badly enough for an
internatinal incident, then the CIA might get involved for a little
"extraordinary rendition." But that really doesn't happen all that
often.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:ea8d3b02-7e99-486a...@googlegroups.com:

Plus, odds are, if the US wants them, they've probably committed
crimes in whatever country they're in, too, so the FBI will assist in
building that case.

[Robert Bannister]

Right. That's not quite how I imagine "pursuit" (or even "prusuit").

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/10/2016 12:55 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:ea8d3b02-7e99-486a...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 8:18:52 PM UTC-6, Robert
>> Bannister wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2016 1:07 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>
>>>> And really, where criminals who
>>>> have fled fled the US is concerned, it's more the State
>>>> Department's thing than anyone else's, but any overt prusuit
>>>> would start with the FBI, not the CIA.
>>
>>> Is overt pursuit in a foreign country legal?
>>
>> Um, the illegal stuff is covert pursuit, i.e. Israel chasing
>> Eichmann.
>>
>> If one is overtly pursuing a criminal in a foreign country, I
>> don't think he meant FBI agents in squad cars with handcuffs -
>> but instead overt actions aimed at chasing down the suspect, and
>> those aren't perhaps what you were thinking of from the word
>> "pursuit" - contacting local authorities, applying for
>> extradition, and so on.
>>
> Plus, odds are, if the US wants them, they've probably committed
> crimes in whatever country they're in, too, so the FBI will assist in
> building that case.
>

Not in the case of Assange.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in

news:e682ri...@mid.individual.net:

The charges from Sweden are of zero interest to the US. There's
nothing there for the FBI to assist. Any case the US would be
interested in is irrelevant when Assange is being actively
protected by a sovereign government. That is rather obviously not
the sort of situation where the legal attaché offices are going to
be much use.

[Brett Dunbar]

In message <2016...@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> writes
> For two hundred years, the Judges of England sat on the Bench,
>condemning to the penalty of death every man, woman, and child who stole
>property to the value of five shillings; and, during all that time, not
>one Judge ever remonstrated against the law. We English are a nation of
>brutes, and ought to be exterminated to the last man. - John Bright

The number of persons who managed to steal exactly 4s 11d was quite
remarkable....
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/
Brett Dunbar