Hopi Indians of China and Tibet

[Quadibloc]

Reading a book about the history of the English language led me to learn that
Rhubarb, a commonplace plant used in making pies, came originally from mystical
Tibet.

This led to a web search to learn more.

I found this site:

http://www.puristat.com/ingredients/rhubarbroot.aspx

I'm aware that the Hopi Indians have a certain reputation - due to books like
"Prophetic Years" which also plugged Oahspe (not too surprisingly, as it came
from Kosmon Press) - but while one may think of them, along with Tibetan lamas,
as possessing arcane knowledge, they're found in or near Arizona, not in Tibet.

John Savard

[Don Bruder]

In article <1eed0ebf-06ca-4986...@googlegroups.com>,

yabbut...

They only landed in Arizona after they came out of the ancient tunnels
through the earth...

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

[William Vetter]

There is a book of the 50's named _Masked Gods_ that is marketed as
being about Southwestern Indian religion (Puebloans and Navajos), but
it is really comparative religion between these Indians and Tibetans.
The Tibetan concept of cosmology with its levels of heaven and levels
of the underworld, specific mountains at either the four compass points
or the solstice directions is very similar to descriptions in the
various Southwestern Indian creation stories.

At this point, the white man believes that Asians related to the Yupiks
migrated across the Bering Straight at some time to later become
Anasazi.

[patmp...@gmail.com]

I've lived in Bali and visited the Navajo/Hopi southwest, and I say that the cultures are quite similar.

I've also been to Sumatra. The art is a lot like that found in Africa and the people are obviously of black African descent. Papua too. I can't tell the difference between the art of Papua and Africa. It's remarkable because the populations separated 50,000 years ago or more.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 8:41:10 PM UTC-6, Don Bruder wrote:

> They only landed in Arizona after they came out of the ancient tunnels
> through the earth...

Oh yes - Agharta!

John Savard

[William Vetter]

They emerged from a sippapu at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, where
the Little Colorado meets the Colorado River.

[patmp...@gmail.com]

The sipapu is where the Little Colorado River emerges from the ground. The water is a beautiful bright blue.

[Quadibloc]

I remember that word from an infomercial I saw on television... which appeared
somewhat before Ronald Reagan announced the Strategic Defense Initiative.

Googling, I see that this wasn't a plan proposed by a private group or company,
but was something the U.S. Army was actually studying - later transferred to
DARPA.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

I see I guessed right:

https://earthenergyreader.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/a-visit-to-agharta/

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Incidentally, that book gives an Amazon link for one book it mentions, but the
book, "Beasts, Men, and Gods" is on the Internet Archive (as well as Gutenberg):

https://archive.org/details/beastsmengods00osseiala

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

On Saturday, 24 October 2015 03:16:14 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> Reading a book about the history of the English language led me to learn that
> Rhubarb, a commonplace plant used in making pies, came originally from mystical
> Tibet.

I was vaguely aware that, like aluminium, rhubarb
used to have a greater mystique than it does today.

But for the curious remedy produced in a distant
isolated monastery to turn out to be rhubarb, is
a bit of a surprise.

I suppose that its appearance on the individual
urban citizen's gardening land allotment meant
that familiarity bred contempt - and likewise
its appearance alongside roses in coarse jokes
about how to use horse droppings productively.

<http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian/history/empire/opiumwars/rhubarb.html>
reflects that even when rhubarb was a product of
the mysterious East, its indispensability to the
imperial British may have been overestimated
by their opponent.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 1:44:58 AM UTC-7, William Vetter wrote:
> Quadibloc wrote:
> > Reading a book about the history of the English language led me to learn
> > that Rhubarb, a commonplace plant used in making pies, came originally from
> > mystical Tibet.
> >
> > This led to a web search to learn more.
> >
> > I found this site:
> >
> > http://www.puristat.com/ingredients/rhubarbroot.aspx
> >
> > I'm aware that the Hopi Indians have a certain reputation - due to books
> > like "Prophetic Years" which also plugged Oahspe (not too surprisingly, as
> > it came from Kosmon Press) - but while one may think of them, along with
> > Tibetan lamas, as possessing arcane knowledge, they're found in or near
> > Arizona, not in Tibet.
> >
> There is a book of the 50's named _Masked Gods_ that is marketed as
> being about Southwestern Indian religion (Puebloans and Navajos), but
> it is really comparative religion between these Indians and Tibetans.
> The Tibetan concept of cosmology with its levels of heaven and levels
> of the underworld, specific mountains at either the four compass points
> or the solstice directions is very similar to descriptions in the
> various Southwestern Indian creation stories.

I'm kinda fuzzy on Tibetan mythology; do they have a specific parallel to the Native American red and black roads?

> At this point, the white man believes that Asians related to the Yupiks
> migrated across the Bering Straight at some time to later become
> Anasazi.

Well, beliefs are evidence-irrelevant, so I don't think "believes" is the appropriate verb there.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Alie...@gmail.com]

Another SFnal mention is in John Dalmas' _The Reality Matrix_:

http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0671655833/0671655833.htm?blurb

A fun read, kinda reminiscent of _World Of Tiers_, worldbuilding-wise. Starts off feeling all new-agey but turns out more _The Matrix_.


Mark L. Fergerson

[William Vetter]

nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 1:44:58 AM UTC-7, William Vetter wrote:
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>> Reading a book about the history of the English language led me to learn
>>> that Rhubarb, a commonplace plant used in making pies, came originally from
>>> mystical Tibet.
>>>
>>> This led to a web search to learn more.
>>>
>>> I found this site:
>>>
>>> http://www.puristat.com/ingredients/rhubarbroot.aspx
>>>
>>> I'm aware that the Hopi Indians have a certain reputation - due to books
>>> like "Prophetic Years" which also plugged Oahspe (not too surprisingly, as
>>> it came from Kosmon Press) - but while one may think of them, along with
>>> Tibetan lamas, as possessing arcane knowledge, they're found in or near
>>> Arizona, not in Tibet.
>>>
>> There is a book of the 50's named _Masked Gods_ that is marketed as
>> being about Southwestern Indian religion (Puebloans and Navajos), but
>> it is really comparative religion between these Indians and Tibetans.
>> The Tibetan concept of cosmology with its levels of heaven and levels
>> of the underworld, specific mountains at either the four compass points
>> or the solstice directions is very similar to descriptions in the
>> various Southwestern Indian creation stories.
>
> I'm kinda fuzzy on Tibetan mythology; do they have a specific parallel to
> the Native American red and black roads?
>

I don't remember all of it. The comparison was the structure of the
heavens and underworld in Tibetan buddhist cosmology was similar to the
Puebloan structure, only differing in the number of levels. The
Indians liked the number 4, and I think the Tibetans liked the number
5. The other notion had to do with Navajo assigning the corners of the
world to sacred mountains...I don't remember what the Tibetan
counterpart was. The point of the argument was that Native American
religion or myth was as sophisticated or elaborate as more respected
Asian religions, which I suppose was a perception when the book was
written.

I don't recognize red and black roads.

The full title is _Masked Gods: Navaho & Pueblo Ceremonialism_, by
Frank Waters. I had to figure that out with Google. It's a rambling
book, and sometimes he talks in metaphors about Southwestern landscape
where I couldn't tell if it's literal description or a metaphor. It's
good because he describes some of the dances from the pueblos besides
Hopi & Zuni.

[Robert A. Woodward]

In article
<9f91f064-b94d-4ae6...@googlegroups.com>,

Several of the characters in _The Reality Matrix_ appear (briefly)
in _The Puppet Master_ (a collection of 3 closely related stories -
one contains a reference to _The General's President_).

--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://robertaw.drizzlehosting.com>

[Richard Hershberger]

The next paragraph claims that Marco Polo discovered rhubarb in the 1600s. This is a remarkable achievement for someone who had been dead for centuries.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Richard Hershberger]

Umm... Navajo and Hopi cultures are unrelated. There has been some inevitable intermingling, of course, but not as much as you might think. Their traditional lifestyles were quite different, and the two groups really don't like each other. For an explanation, look no further than that "Anasazi" is a Navajo word literally meaning "ancestors of our enemies".

Richard R. Hershberger

[patmp...@gmail.com]

But Anasazi does not refer to the Hopi.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:52:44 -0700 (PDT),
<patmp...@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:2de383c1-53e9-4716...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:02:40 AM UTC-4, Richard
> Hershberger wrote:

>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 10:07:23 AM UTC-4,
>> patmp...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

>>> I've lived in Bali and visited the Navajo/Hopi
>>> southwest, and I say that the cultures are quite
>>> similar.

>> Umm... Navajo and Hopi cultures are unrelated. There
>> has been some inevitable intermingling, of course, but
>> not as much as you might think. Their traditional
>> lifestyles were quite different, and the two groups
>> really don't like each other. For an explanation, look
>> no further than that "Anasazi" is a Navajo word
>> literally meaning "ancestors of our enemies".

> But Anasazi does not refer to the Hopi.

The Hopi are descended from the Anasazi, though they prefer
the term <Hisatsinom>.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Richard Hershberger]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 7:14:50 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:52:44 -0700 (PDT),
> <patmp...@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:2de383c1-53e9-4716...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:02:40 AM UTC-4, Richard
> > Hershberger wrote:
>
> >> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 10:07:23 AM UTC-4,
> >> patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> I've lived in Bali and visited the Navajo/Hopi
> >>> southwest, and I say that the cultures are quite
> >>> similar.
>
> >> Umm... Navajo and Hopi cultures are unrelated. There
> >> has been some inevitable intermingling, of course, but
> >> not as much as you might think. Their traditional
> >> lifestyles were quite different, and the two groups
> >> really don't like each other. For an explanation, look
> >> no further than that "Anasazi" is a Navajo word
> >> literally meaning "ancestors of our enemies".
>
> > But Anasazi does not refer to the Hopi.
>
> The Hopi are descended from the Anasazi, though they prefer
> the term <Hisatsinom>.
>
> Brian

To expand a bit, the Navajo and Apache immigrated into (or, if you prefer, invaded) the Southwest around 1400 C.E. or so. Their immigrant status is obvious from their languages. Navajo and Apache are closely related to one another, completely unrelated to the surrounding languages, and related to a group of languages in western Canada and eastern Alaska.

A lot of what we often think of as traditional Navajo culture are actually borrowings, in many cases from the Spanish. This includes herding, weaving, and silver jewelry. Of course the Navajo and the Hopi live in much the same physical environment, so there are similarities to their physical cultures. But their religions, for example, are entirely different.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

Then there are the Zuni, speakers of a language AFAIK unrelated to any other. How did they manage that?

> A lot of what we often think of as traditional Navajo culture are actually
> borrowings, in many cases from the Spanish. This includes herding, weaving,
> and silver jewelry. Of course the Navajo and the Hopi live in much the same
> physical environment, so there are similarities to their physical cultures.
> But their religions, for example, are entirely different.

Also, they don't all look the same...


Dr. HotSalt

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 06:58:40 -0700 (PDT), Richard
Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:f1dcc9b0-c6c5-4246...@googlegroups.com>

> To expand a bit, the Navajo and Apache immigrated into
> (or, if you prefer, invaded) the Southwest around 1400
> C.E. or so. Their immigrant status is obvious from
> their languages. Navajo and Apache are closely related
> to one another, completely unrelated to the surrounding
> languages, and related to a group of languages in
> western Canada and eastern Alaska.

Indeed: the group traditionally known as the Athabaskan
languages but now more often called the Dene languages. It
actually extends through central Alaska as well; there’s a
map of the pre-contact distribution at

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabaskan_languages>.

And there’s a recent serious and detailed proposal,
tentatively accepted by a number of prominent historical
linguists, linking these languages with the Yeniseian
languages of central Siberia.

[...]

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:30:34 -0700 (PDT), "nu...@bid.nes"
<Alie...@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:00e2702b-ba88-4389...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Then there are the Zuni, speakers of a language AFAIK
> unrelated to any other.

Not provably related to any other known language, meaning
that any relationships with other known languages are so
far in the past that we can’t detect them.

> How did they manage that?

Same way the Basques and Sumerians did, I expect. <g>

[Robert Bannister]

I do hope no fantasy writers get inspired by names like: "Sųłiné, Tłįchǫ
Yatʼiì, Gwich’in or is it too late?

--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:41:44 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote
in<news:d9dfba...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 29/10/2015 2:32 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

[...]

>> Indeed: the group traditionally known as the Athabaskan
>> languages but now more often called the Dene languages. It
>> actually extends through central Alaska as well; there’s a
>> map of the pre-contact distribution at

>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabaskan_languages>.

> I do hope no fantasy writers get inspired by names like:
> "Sųłiné, Tłįchǫ Yatʼiì, Gwich’in or is it too late?

Quarter past too late, I think. At least those are
actually *pronounceable*, which is more than I can say for
a few names that I’ve seen in sf.

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-6, Robert Bannister wrote:

> I do hope no fantasy writers get inspired by names like: "Sųłiné, Tłįchǫ
> Yatʼiì, Gwich’in or is it too late?

When it comes to your first two examples, I think that Polish fantasy writers
would have found them inspiring...

John Savard

[William Vetter]

As I understand it, any modern Puebloans are generally thought to be
either be involved with remnants of or derived from Anasazi. Farther
than that is white anthropologists guessing.

A few specimens of Anasazi pottery has unmistakable Shalako dancers on
it, stick figures under the Shalako's skirt, pulling the cord that
makes the beak in the mask snap. The Shalako Dance is Zuni.

Each Puebloan tribe has a creation story that's generally first people
emerged from a sippapu somewhere and wandered around until they found
the sacred place where that tribe's pueblo was built.

Navajo and Apache raided pueblos for slaves, bred with their women.
This extended somewhat into recorded history. Americans don't let them
do that anymore.

[JRStern]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 07:07:16 -0700 (PDT), patmp...@gmail.com wrote:

>I've also been to Sumatra. The art is a lot like that found in Africa and the people are obviously of black African descent. Papua too. I can't tell the difference between the art of Papua and Africa. It's remarkable because the populations separated 50,000 years ago or more.

Doesn't mean there weren't later communications, from one to the
other, or from third parties to both. Small parties every thousand
years or so. Memes travel light.

J.