parallel universe

[tony]

What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 20:01:00 -0400, tony <to...@hotmail.com>
wrote
in<news:JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?

To get things started, H. Beam Piper’s ‘He Walked Around
the Horses’ and ‘Police Operation’ are from 1948.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <9opmjt9y4yfz$.ymk5a47dpzlu$.d...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 20:01:00 -0400, tony <to...@hotmail.com>
>wrote
>in<news:JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>
>To get things started, H. Beam Piper’s ‘He Walked Around
>the Horses’ and ‘Police Operation’ are from 1948.
>
>Brian

"If Lee Had Not Won The Battle Of Gettysburg" -- Winston Churchill 1930
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 8:14:26 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <9opmjt9y4yfz$.ymk5a47dpzlu$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 20:01:00 -0400, tony <to...@hotmail.com>
> >wrote
> >in<news:JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com> in
> >rec.arts.sf.written:
> >
> >> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
> >
> >To get things started, H. Beam Piper's 'He Walked Around
> >the Horses' and 'Police Operation' are from 1948.
> >
> >Brian
>
> "If Lee Had Not Won The Battle Of Gettysburg" -- Winston Churchill 1930

Murray Leinster's "Sidewise In Time," June 1934 ASTOUNDING

H G Wells "A Modern Utopia" 1903, though that is a "duplicate Earth,"
out beyond Sirius. May not technically qualify.

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,

tony <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>

Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
Heinlein.

The author: Winston Churchill.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Joseph Nebus]

In <ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

>In article <JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
>tony <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>>

>Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
>Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
>Heinlein.

>The author: Winston Churchill.

Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's an
alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that distinguishes an
alternate history from a parallel universe is the discovery of, and
possible interaction with, one universe from another.

--
Joseph Nebus
Math: Reading the Comics: Name-Dropping Edition http://wp.me/p1RYhY-Qh
Humor: The Origin Of The Specious http://wp.me/p37lb5-Wm
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------

[A.G.McDowell]

On 28/08/2015 05:11, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> In<ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> In article<JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
>> tony<to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>>>
>
>> Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
>> Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
>> Heinlein.
>
>> The author: Winston Churchill.
>
> Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's an
> alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that distinguishes an
> alternate history from a parallel universe is the discovery of, and
> possible interaction with, one universe from another.
>

What interests me in a parallel universe story is the world of that
universe. Having somebody visit it from our world is a good way to
describe it, and the differences between that world and our world, but I
don't consider it essential. I don't consider Jo Walton's "Small Change"
series lessened by the fact that there is no communication between that
parallel world and our world.

(I don't consider them must-read, either, but if you are interested in
dystopias in which Britain is ruled by a clique of right-wing
aristocratic fascists and the heros would all, in our world, be eligble
for positive discrimination, they may be right up your street. My Mother
lived through World War II and a copy of Ha'penny was my answer to her
question "are there women science fiction writers?". She wasn't appalled
by grating impossibilities in the world pictured, but didn't find it all
that great either).

PS I also offered her the loan of my treasured copy of Tiptree's 10,000
light-years from home, but she wasn't interested in Science Fiction,
even when written by women, which I have to agree is a correct
identification of a distinction without a difference.

[The Starmaker]

tony wrote:
>
> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?

if you're talking about books there is: The Lathe of Heaven


if you're talking about other stuff stories:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mron1u$3vo$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>In <ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>>In article <JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
>>tony <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>>>
>
>>Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
>>Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
>>Heinlein.
>
>>The author: Winston Churchill.
>
> Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's an
>alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that distinguishes an
>alternate history from a parallel universe is the discovery of, and
>possible interaction with, one universe from another.

Your definition is different from mine, then.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 9:15:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mron1u$3vo$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
> >In <ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >
> >>In article <JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
> >>tony <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
> >>>
> >
> >>Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
> >>Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
> >>Heinlein.
> >
> >>The author: Winston Churchill.
> >
> > Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's an
> >alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that distinguishes an
> >alternate history from a parallel universe is the discovery of, and
> >possible interaction with, one universe from another.
>
> Your definition is different from mine, then.

This is the problem; how do you distinguish parallel universe stories vs
alt - hists, and from plain fiction?

Perhaps an alt-hist has to have a point of divergence, whereas parallel
universes were always in place.

...and what about fiction - telling stories of stuff that didn't happen. Is
2001 now an alt-hist because we're past that date, and clearly not on that
timeline?

pt

[Kevrob]

This is an on topic post from the Starmaker.

I can die now, I've seen it all. :)

Kevin R

[Anthony Nance]

If it doesn't qualify, then his mention of parallel universes in 1923's
Men Like Gods might (with gratitude to the techovelgy.com website):

"...
We conceive ourselves to be living in a parallel universe to
yours, on a planet the very brother of your own.
..."

Tony

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>In article <mron1u$3vo$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>>In <ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>>>In article <JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
>>>tony <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>>>>
>>
>>>Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
>>>Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
>>>Heinlein.
>>
>>>The author: Winston Churchill.
>>
>> Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's an
>>alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that distinguishes an
>>alternate history from a parallel universe is the discovery of, and
>>possible interaction with, one universe from another.
>
>Your definition is different from mine, then.

I'm closer to his. I see a difference (small but distinct) between
alt-hist and parallel universe. And the hybrid types (viewpoint
character shifts over, but stays over - (Kalvan, walked around the
horses; or where the viewpoint character causes the divergence (lest
darkness fall, 1632) are even more fuzzy.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Robert Carnegie]

My questions:

1. Does a story set after it's been done more than once
on _Star Trek_ count as "earliest"? (Lazarus's universe,
Mirror universe, more if you count "parallel earths"
such as Nazi Planet, Roman Empire Planet, Gangster Planet,
Miri's planet which was a duplicate of Earth geography
for no reason explored at the time.)

2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.

(I want to exclude stories where someone wakes up and it
was a dream, otherwise, _The Wizard of Oz_ movie is basically
a parallel-universe story. Parallel in the sense of
"close enough to reach", not "parallel development".)

H. G. Wells "A Dream of Armageddon" is, of course, a dream
of apparent future events. Does the future count as a parallel
world? Or does it need to be a distinct physical existence?
For instance, if I bury a treasure hoard here, I can expect
to find it in the same place in the future world. So it's
the same world.

I have, as usual, forgotten details, including writer, of the
one about a man who, for whatever reason, began to see into
a world other than ours, and eventually was unable to function
in normal society. I have an idea that part of the city where
he lived - which may have been Paris? - was underwater in the
other world, so when taken there he expected to drown? Or
maybe he did?

Come to think, is it a Wells where a schoolteacher (?) is
hurled by a chemistry class explosion (!) into the fourth
dimension, which seems also to be the space inhabited by
ghosts? But he is only just outside our space. He can watch...

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.

Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:26:50 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
<andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote
in<news:mrorb6$mq6$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 28/08/2015 05:11, Joseph Nebus wrote:
>> In<ntrrw...@kithrup.com> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>>> In article<JrOdnfa8LPlVOULI...@giganews.com>,
>>> tony<to...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>>> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?

>>> Well, there's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg," mentioned in
>>> Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ by a Tuckerization of Robert
>>> Heinlein.

>>> The author: Winston Churchill.

>> Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's
>> an alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that
>> distinguishes an alternate history from a parallel
>> universe is the discovery of, and possible interaction
>> with, one universe from another.

I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
story is not at all the same thing as a parallel universe
story. By definition a parallel universe story must have
at least two universes coexisting within the story.
Preferably they should be part of a larger system (Piper’s
Paratime, Norton’s _Crossroads of Time_ setting, Laumer’s
Imperium setting, Michael McCollum’s Paratime, etc.).
Leinster’s ‘Sidewise in Time’ might actually be the first
of that type.

I’m less likely to use the term in connection with fantasy,
but Zelazny’s Amber setting and Elizabeth Willey’s setting
for _The Well-Favored Man_ qualify.

[...]

[Ahasuerus]

Wells's "The Remarkable Case of Davidson's Eyes" was first published
in 1895, the same year that Rosny's "Un autre monde" appeared. Among
longer works _The Blind Spot_ (1921) is probably best known, in part
because of Damon Knight's (in)famous review.

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"Brian M. Scott" wrote

>> Is that really a proper parallel universe story? It's
>> an alternate history, yes, but surely the trait that
>> distinguishes an alternate history from a parallel
>> universe is the discovery of, and possible interaction
>> with, one universe from another.

> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
story is not at all the same thing as a parallel universe
story. By definition a parallel universe story must have
at least two universes coexisting within the story.
Preferably they should be part of a larger system (Piper’s
Paratime, Norton’s _Crossroads of Time_ setting, Laumer’s
Imperium setting, Michael McCollum’s Paratime, etc.).
Leinster’s ‘Sidewise in Time’ might actually be the first
of that type.

> I’m less likely to use the term in connection with fantasy,
but Zelazny’s Amber setting and Elizabeth Willey’s setting
for _The Well-Favored Man_ qualify.

Murray Leinster's novella being 1935 (Astounding Stories) and in collection
Sidewise in Time (1950)


http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?47101


--
Mike D

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:24:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

[snip]

>I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
>story is not at all the same thing as a parallel universe
>story. By definition a parallel universe story must have
>at least two universes coexisting within the story.

If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice to
write only about that universe to have the story be a parallel
universe story?

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:58:00 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
<ge...@telus.net> wrote
in<news:s6m1ua9pgn08fgv2h...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
simply an alternative universe.

[William December Starr]

In article <16d162rvqzbh3$.1v9jxr94l6xm9$.d...@40tude.net>,

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:

> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel universe
> story. By definition a parallel universe story must have
> at least two universes coexisting within the story.
> Preferably they should be part of a larger system (Piper's
> Paratime, Norton's _Crossroads of Time_ setting, Laumer's
> Imperium setting, Michael McCollum's Paratime, etc.).

-----------

Fry: I wanna see the edge of the universe!

Amy: Ooh! That sounds cool.

Zoidberg: It's funny. You live in the universe, but you never
do these things till someone comes to visit.

[Scene: Edge of The Universe. The ship approaches a black/white
boundary.]

Farnsworth: [from ship] There it is! The edge of the universe!

[The ship cruises towards the edge of space and lands in a
parking space. The crew get out and walk to a wall separating
space from the whiteness after it. Fry puts some money in some
binoculars and looks through them. He sees a Planet Express
crew from a parallel cowboy universe wave. He and the others
wave back.]

Fry: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel
universes?

Farnsworth: No, just the two.

Fry: Oh, well, I'm sure that's enough.

-----------

Note that a few seasons later "The Farnsworth Parabox"
completely demolished that "only two" limit.

-- wds

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-08-28, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> Come to think, is it a Wells where a schoolteacher (?) is
> hurled by a chemistry class explosion (!) into the fourth
> dimension, which seems also to be the space inhabited by
> ghosts? But he is only just outside our space. He can watch...

Yes, _The Plattner Story_. Just recently read it in the Project Gutenberg
collection of that name.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-08-28, pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the problem; how do you distinguish parallel universe stories vs
> alt - hists, and from plain fiction?
>
> Perhaps an alt-hist has to have a point of divergence, whereas parallel
> universes were always in place.

Which means that there's an OLD old book that should qualify, since it talks
about a parallel plane of existence or two, where you go after you're dead...

Dave, and does the parallel universe have to be infinite, or can small ones be
counted?

[Greg Goss]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 28 August 2015 14:45:07 UTC+1, Kevrob wrote:
>1. Does a story set after it's been done more than once
> on _Star Trek_ count as "earliest"? (Lazarus's universe,
> Mirror universe, more if you count "parallel earths"
> such as Nazi Planet, Roman Empire Planet, Gangster Planet,
> Miri's planet which was a duplicate of Earth geography
> for no reason explored at the time.)

Yangs vs Coms.

Mirror Universe I see as a parallel universe story. I don't remember
the Lazarus story. The rest I see as "alt-hist and different from
parallel universe.

>2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 18:11:50 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"

<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:58:00 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
><ge...@telus.net> wrote
>in<news:s6m1ua9pgn08fgv2h...@4ax.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:24:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
>> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>
>>> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
>>> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel
>>> universe story. By definition a parallel universe
>>> story must have at least two universes coexisting
>>> within the story.
>
>> If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice
>> to write only about that universe to have the story be a
>> parallel universe story?
>
>If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
>evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
>simply an alternative universe.

A reader could draw the parallels. "Hey, this is just like home
except for the change in _____ and the developments after. I wonder
why it did not happen that way here."

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[The Starmaker]

But what most people don't know is that..
parallel universe is an invention by
the science fiction community, not the
scientific community.


So, when I see members
of the 'scientific community' talking
about parallel universe...they are talking about
a subject invented by the
science fiction community.

when I see members
of the 'science fiction community' talking
about parallel universe...they are talking about
a subject invented by the
'science fiction community'...but
they believe it was invented by
the 'scientific community'.



You people got this whole world mixed up.

[je suis charly]

In article <55E165...@ix.netcom.com>,

The Starmaker <star...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > tony wrote:
> > >
> > > What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
> >
> > if you're talking about books there is: The Lathe of Heaven
> >
> > if you're talking about other stuff stories:
> > http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782
>
>
> But what most people don't know is that..
> parallel universe is an invention by
> the science fiction community, not the
> scientific community.

To be fair spacecraft also showed up first in the science fiction of Johannes
Kepler.

> So, when I see members
> of the 'scientific community' talking
> about parallel universe...they are talking about
> a subject invented by the
> science fiction community.

It depends whether they are just speculating or if they think actually think
there is evidence for anything outside this universe. Speculation is the
precursor to hypothesis which begets theory.

--
Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments
of the eye are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from
coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true
of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 28 August 2015 23:11:41 UTC+1, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:58:00 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
> <ge...@telus.net> wrote
> in<news:s6m1ua9pgn08fgv2h...@4ax.com> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:24:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
> >> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel
> >> universe story. By definition a parallel universe
> >> story must have at least two universes coexisting
> >> within the story.
>
> > If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice
> > to write only about that universe to have the story be a
> > parallel universe story?
>
> If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
> evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
> simply an alternative universe.

On reflection, I think the useful category is
"parallel UNIVERSES story". More than one.

Otherwise, the story in which Victorian England
was invaded by Germans - or by Martians - accidentally
becomes a "parallel world" just because it describes
past events that didn't actually happen.

Or perhaps loosen it to "parallel worlds", and allow
all those Star Trek planets. Or, allow some of them;
the Nazis and the gangsters were actually alien
societies that got rearranged by Earth influence.
I was intentionally cheating by bringing those up.
"The Alternative Factor" is the one where Lazarus
is both a visitor from the anti-matter universe
and - spoiler - his counterpart in the positive
universe. And one of them was crazy but I'm not
sure which...

For that matter, I think that another "universe"
that is physically congruent to ours but not /like/
ours - Narnia for instance - like the old wallpaper
that you papered over with the new - isn't the same
thing. "Parallel universe" really means parallel
development, or, rather, similar and dissimilar
development from an identical origin.

On the other hand, a "parallel Earth" like the
Star Trek ones, elsewhere in space - which admittedly
demands a lot of justification - lets you go there
and fight Roman Legions or Nazis, and that'a all
that you want really, isn't it?

So perhaps let the Star Trek ones back in after all...

Also, Bizarro World, and, the planet that /looks/
like the Earth but is actually a duplicate made
so that the alien army can test their invasion
tactics, or their android impersonators.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 28 August 2015 18:19:54 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.
>
> Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?

I think picking at my using the wrong word is indictive.

I could have said "ignorant" - or, on reflection,
it's pretty obvious, anyway.

Is there a _Lost in Space_ or _The Wild Wild West_ or
_Captain Video_ parallel universe story? (That isn't
"just a dream" in the end - preferably, but I'm open
to it. Also, alien duplicates.)

[Robert Carnegie]

For "Davidson's Eyes", thank you, and, dammit. ;-)
Davidson's vision is ba gur bccbfvgr fvqr bs bhe bja
cynarg - and it stops when he closes his eyes, but
he's annoyingly reluctant to do that. The setting
is, naturally, London. Worst of all - ur trgf onggre.

Actually, I don't mind that, I just expected the opposite
and I thought I remembered it. On the other hand, the
scarcity of the positive outcome in sci-fi is something
that a while ago I began to dislike in the genre. Real
life is depressing enough...

[David Johnston]

On 8/28/2015 4:11 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:58:00 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
> <ge...@telus.net> wrote
> in<news:s6m1ua9pgn08fgv2h...@4ax.com> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:24:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
>> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>
>>> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
>>> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel
>>> universe story. By definition a parallel universe
>>> story must have at least two universes coexisting
>>> within the story.
>
>> If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice
>> to write only about that universe to have the story be a
>> parallel universe story?
>
> If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
> evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
> simply an alternative universe.

Well you could go with "this universe never had an identifiable point of
departure" To take an example try Estep's Elemental Assassin series.
It's set in a world that had an American Civil War and has cars and
electrity, so there's a parallel there, but there was never a point in
human history at which it was the same as our world. I mean it always
had super powers and vampires, elves and giants. I've always thought of
a alternative universe as one that took a different path, while a
parallel universe is one that was always different (at least all through
human history) and yet for some inexplicable reason still had a Hitler,
or a Nixon, or Macdonalds or a country named England.

[David Johnston]

On 8/29/2015 5:42 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 28 August 2015 18:19:54 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.
>>
>> Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?
>

> I think picking at my using the wrong word is indicative.

>
> I could have said "ignorant" - or, on reflection,
> it's pretty obvious, anyway.
>
> Is there a _Lost in Space_ or _The Wild Wild West_ or
> _Captain Video_ parallel universe story? (That isn't
> "just a dream" in the end - preferably, but I'm open
> to it. Also, alien duplicates.)
>

The earliest parallel/alternative universe I could find on television
was "The Parallel" on the Twilight Zone in 1963.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 28 August 2015 18:19:54 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.
>>
>> Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?
>
>I think picking at my using the wrong word is indictive.

It's indicative that I don't give a hoot about your question but am
fascinated by words.

[The Starmaker]

je suis charly wrote:
>
> In article <55E165...@ix.netcom.com>,
> The Starmaker <star...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > tony wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
> > >
> > > if you're talking about books there is: The Lathe of Heaven
> > >
> > > if you're talking about other stuff stories:
> > > http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782
> >
> >
> > But what most people don't know is that..
> > parallel universe is an invention by
> > the science fiction community, not the
> > scientific community.
>
> To be fair spacecraft also showed up first in the science fiction of Johannes
> Kepler.
>
> > So, when I see members
> > of the 'scientific community' talking
> > about parallel universe...they are talking about
> > a subject invented by the
> > science fiction community.
>
> It depends whether they are just speculating or if they think actually think
> there is evidence for anything outside this universe. Speculation is the
> precursor to hypothesis which begets theory.

It is a speculation that first came from science fiction community, not the 'scientific community'.

I understand it's unobservable, not tested...but doesn't even come from the 'scientific community' as a theory.

Cause it is an invention of 'the science fiction community'.

Parallel Universe is a science fiction theory, not a science non-fiction theory.


It comes from science fiction. It is borne from science fiction.



There is no Science theory like this:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782

[The Starmaker]

To put it simply...
Parallel Universe is a speculation that first came from 'the science fiction community', not the 'scientific community'.

[William Vetter]

Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:58:00 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
> <ge...@telus.net> wrote
> in<news:s6m1ua9pgn08fgv2h...@4ax.com> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:24:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
>> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>
>>> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
>>> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel
>>> universe story. By definition a parallel universe
>>> story must have at least two universes coexisting
>>> within the story.
>
>> If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice
>> to write only about that universe to have the story be a
>> parallel universe story?
>
> If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
> evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
> simply an alternative universe.
>

The author can state "This is a parallel universe," but if there is no
science-fictional idea involving the relationship between the 2
universes, then it might as well be an alternate universe.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:29:22 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
<ge...@telus.net> wrote
in<news:u5k2ua96521tt4h6s...@4ax.com> in

You’re talking about an alternate history. Moreover, that
is *not* the meaning of ‘parallel’ in ‘parallel worlds’:
parallel worlds are worlds that exist in parallel -- side
by side.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:08:08 -0600, David Johnston
<Da...@block.net> wrote in<news:mrshpb$tjt$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> I've always thought of a alternative universe as one that
> took a different path, while a parallel universe is one
> that was always different (at least all through human
> history) and yet for some inexplicable reason still had
> a Hitler, or a Nixon, or Macdonalds or a country named
> England.

That’s most definitely not how I understand the term; see
my response to Gene.

[Thomas Heger]

Am 29.08.2015 18:30, schrieb The Starmaker:

>>>> So, when I see members
>>>> of the 'scientific community' talking
>>>> about parallel universe...they are talking about
>>>> a subject invented by the
>>>> science fiction community.
>>>
>>> It depends whether they are just speculating or if they think actually think
>>> there is evidence for anything outside this universe. Speculation is the
>>> precursor to hypothesis which begets theory.
>>
>> It is a speculation that first came from science fiction community, not the 'scientific community'.
>>
>> I understand it's unobservable, not tested...but doesn't even come from the 'scientific community' as a theory.
>>
>> Cause it is an invention of 'the science fiction community'.
>>
>> Parallel Universe is a science fiction theory, not a science non-fiction theory.
>>
>> It comes from science fiction. It is borne from science fiction.
>>
>> There is no Science theory like this:
>> http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782
>
>
> To put it simply...
> Parallel Universe is a speculation that first came from 'the science fiction community', not the 'scientific community'.

I had an idea about an 'universe around the corner'.

I assume, that time behaves like an axis and we (together with our
universe) perform some kind of movement along this imaginary axis.

This we can't see, since we regard this movement as time, while the
remote events are separated in space.

It we take the line towards such a remote event as new axis of time, we
would see a different universe. And this is not parallel, but has an
angle, since its axis of time is in our world the path of light.

In that other universe we (on this planet) are invisible, since we
belong to the past of an observer moving along such a path.

This effect is actually, what relativity is dealing with. If you think
about velocity as angle in spacetime, the velocity c is the angle of
45°. If you turn to this angle, you are actually moving with c in
respect to some other object (say: planet Earth).

This will make the Earth drop behind the event horizon, while another
universe opens.

But the object moving along such a tilted axis does not regard its own
movement as movement in space. The object regards itself as at rest and
centres the universe around itself.

This is at least what we humans do with our universe. We see ourselves
as at the centre and measure distance in respect to us.

Most likely all other possible observers would do the same, but would
see a different universe. And these universes are not parallel, since
they have a different axis of time, standing in an angle to each other.


TH

[William Vetter]

Oh, I'm sorry. The above should read:

The author can state "This is a parallel universe," but if there is no
science-fictional idea involving the relationship between the 2

universes, then it might as well be an alternate history.

[William Vetter]

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 28 August 2015 18:19:54 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.
>>>
>>> Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?
>>
>> I think picking at my using the wrong word is indictive.
>
> It's indicative that I don't give a hoot about your question but am
> fascinated by words.

I find your dysphemistic behavior escharotic.

[J. Clarke]

In article <mrsimm$11h$1...@dont-email.me>, Da...@block.net says...

I took a quick look through the episode guides for Science Fiction
Theater, One Step Beyond, Out There, and Tales of Tomorrow and didn't
find anything but I may have missed something.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 8:51:40 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-08-28, pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is the problem; how do you distinguish parallel universe stories vs
> > alt - hists, and from plain fiction?
> >
> > Perhaps an alt-hist has to have a point of divergence, whereas parallel
> > universes were always in place.

For travel between the always-in-place kind, the number and signature of dimensions, physical constants, and so on have to be the same, otherwise you'd frinst briefly be extremely radioactive in many of them. In others you'd instantly collapse to a black hole, your nuclei would have too many/not enough kinds of quarks making you even more radioactive even more briefly, or other awkward hilarities would ensue.

If two universes do match up, how does that happen? Either there's an infinite number that do (and even more that don't), or there's a common cause like the Big Bang (it was Bigger than we think, making it the original Departure Point). If that's the case it's reasonable to expect many with identical (or ALMOST identical) planets, continents, people, place names, and whatnot.

In Blish's _Triumph Of Time_ climax, is our universe the temporal mirror-image of the other one, or is it just two universes colliding in the fifth-D night?

> Which means that there's an OLD old book that should qualify, since it talks
> about a parallel plane of existence or two, where you go after you're dead...
>
> Dave, and does the parallel universe have to be infinite, or can small ones be
> counted?

Small in which dimensions?

At least one story had Hell changing to match Man's understanding of Reality- it started as a ~100 mile-wide disc, turned into a sphere, then the Relativities turned on... good thing too, it made more room for the never-ending population boom.

Um. You know, an exactly Earthlike Hell could get REALLY crowded if the Apocalypse doesn't happen for say three, four hundred thousand years. Anthropomorphic souls could be stacked, but the curvature of Hell would eat into the angle of repose after a while and Satan's throne would eventually be buried. Eventually Hell would have to start a space program to export the surplus souls. That would make a fun story.


Mark L. Fergerson

[William Vetter]

nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 8:51:40 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2015-08-28, pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This is the problem; how do you distinguish parallel universe stories vs
>>> alt - hists, and from plain fiction?
>>>
>>> Perhaps an alt-hist has to have a point of divergence, whereas parallel
>>> universes were always in place.
>
> For travel between the always-in-place kind, the number and signature of
> dimensions, physical constants, and so on have to be the same, otherwise
> you'd frinst briefly be extremely radioactive in many of them.

I think _The Gods Themselves_, by Asimov was like this.

[Jerry Brown]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:08:08 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>

wrote:

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell is set in alternate nineteenth century
which has George III and the Duke of Wellington, but hundreds of years
earlier magic was commonplace

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[Jerry Brown]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:08:08 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell is set in alternate nineteenth century

which still has George III and the Duke of Wellington, but with a
completely different history in which magic was once commonplace and
the North of England was ruled by John Uskglass, the Raven King.

[Jerry Brown]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 28 August 2015 18:19:54 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >2. Was it done on T.V. before Star Trek? I'm illiterate.
>>
>> Shouldn't the word be something like "invideate"?
>
>I think picking at my using the wrong word is indictive.
>
>I could have said "ignorant" - or, on reflection,
>it's pretty obvious, anyway.
>
>Is there a _Lost in Space_

The was an episode where Smith tried to prevent his earlier self from
being trapped on the ship when it launched, which should have been the
branch point for an alternate present, but events conspired to
preserve the original timeline. This was also done as an episode of
Land of the Giants and every episode of The Time Tunnel.

>or _The Wild Wild West_ or
>_Captain Video_ parallel universe story? (That isn't
>"just a dream" in the end - preferably, but I'm open
>to it. Also, alien duplicates.)

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

I don't think I've ever seen "escharotic" used figuratively before,
though it works, but if I were being dysphemistic I'd have said I
didn't give a flying fuck, rather than a hoot.

[Robert Carnegie]

Do you mean, a unique universe, that merely contradicts
the facts of our own universe? A "secondary world" that
stands on its own?

I think it doesn't matter unless the author wants you to
believe that the universe you are in doesn't exist (!)
"Flash of Two Worlds!" made the parallel-universes
concept quite public in 1961, so a reader can mentally
place the story in Earth-451 if they want to.

There's also the idea that after the universe ends
in a Big Crunch, it is re-created in a new Big Bang,
with either exactly the same history or a minor
variation, so, Earth is re-created in the next cycle,
but with different historical outcomes.

I think in the science fiction TV show _Lexx_ there
were one or more prophets who were able to tell you
the future because it was also the past.

An experienced reader no longer expects that someone
has had to bring the story back to Earth-Prime so
that we can read it. The relationship of the
secondary world can remain unexplained. But a less
experienced reader can find it annoying. I suppose
you can pull the "manuscript of obscure origin"
gag, as really an excuse for not explaining.

[Robert Carnegie]

I'm not sure I understand you, but I think I remember from
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_%28Lewis_novel%29> -
a possibly forged incomplete story - that that is a setting
in which the alternate universes sail about in a higher-dimension
space, occasionally coming close enough to another to communicate -
or to collide perhaps. Investigators on Earth are observing an
"Othertime" which, being I suppose the source of this information,
is preparing itself for this event.

Another possibility in the setting was for a universe to circle
around and become its own past, with some indication that this
would be especially horrible - I'm not exactly sure why, but I
suppose the disadvantages would be apparent once you were there.
Which would be too late, probably.

[Kevrob]

Regarding "Flash of Two Worlds," Word Of God is that the
author of the Golden Age Flash and Justice Society stories
that were the inspiration for Barry (Flash) Allen, was the
Earth-1 version of Gardner Fox,* who claimed that he "tuned in"
to the parallel world in his dreams, long before Barry found
that sweet spot on the Central City Civic Center stage and
accidentally vibrated over to Jay (Flash) Garrick's dimension.

Having a vision of an alternate reality is a pretty common trope.

Kevin R

* The other main Flash and JLA scripter was John Broome, and
Robert Kanigher wrote also wrote some, notably the first story
of the 1956 revival in SHOWCASE #4.

[The Starmaker]

what about the girl at the bus station?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/440740

[Jerry Brown]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

It's a Wonderful Life (1946) based on The Greatest Gift (1943).

[Greg Goss]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

>though it works, but if I were being dysphemistic I'd have said I
>didn't give a flying fuck, rather than a hoot.

I've never given one, though my first wife once sent me a link to a
web-charter company operating out of a place we were going on vacation
to. I decided our budget couldn't handle it.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[J. Clarke]

In article <2ddfeaa2-3bd4-445e...@googlegroups.com>,
kev...@my-deja.com says...

I experience them with some regularity--not visions exactly, but dreams.
In the dreamtime I live in a different house in a different neighborhood
(not bigger or better or fancier, just different), and occasionally in
the real world I'll be searching all over for something that I know I
have, and I'll try to think the last place I saw it, and when I finally
remember it was somewhere in the dreamtime house.

[Robert Carnegie]

That'll do - thanks! Although it appears that the
astronaut is psychically translated into his
other-universe counterpart - at least that's
my interpretation from the episode description.
Still, good enough.

Wasn't there a 1970s (?) film where an astronaut
eventually figures out that he's landed on
Counter-Earth, on the far side of the sun,
and needs to take off again to get to the
right Planet Earth? ...oh:
_Journey to the Far Side of the Sun_ (1969).
Also / originally known as _Doppelganger_.

(He was actually aiming for Counter-Earth
but he didn't realise that it was a
mirror-universe Earth, so when he landed,
he just assumed that he was on his own Earth,
apart from things like clocks running
anticlockwise and cars driving the opposite
side of the road - well, those were the clues.)

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 30 August 2015 00:56:46 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <2ddfeaa2-3bd4-445e...@googlegroups.com>,
> kev...@my-deja.com says...

> > Having a vision of an alternate reality is a pretty common trope.
>
> I experience them with some regularity--not visions exactly, but dreams.
> In the dreamtime I live in a different house in a different neighborhood
> (not bigger or better or fancier, just different), and occasionally in
> the real world I'll be searching all over for something that I know I
> have, and I'll try to think the last place I saw it, and when I finally
> remember it was somewhere in the dreamtime house.

That's my house. When are you coming round to get your stuff? :-)

ekralC .J

(with thanks to Mr. Eigenrac)

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-08-29, nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 8:51:40 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2015-08-28, pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > This is the problem; how do you distinguish parallel universe stories vs
>> > alt - hists, and from plain fiction?
>> >
>> > Perhaps an alt-hist has to have a point of divergence, whereas parallel
>> > universes were always in place.
>
> For travel between the always-in-place kind, the number and signature of
> dimensions, physical constants, and so on have to be the same, otherwise
> you'd frinst briefly be extremely radioactive in many of them. In others
> you'd instantly collapse to a black hole, your nuclei would have too many/not
> enough kinds of quarks making you even more radioactive even more briefly, or
> other awkward hilarities would ensue.

ObSF: Asimov, _The Gods Themselves_.

Dave, of COURSE he wrote a parallel-universe story, he wrote one of EVERYTHING

>> Which means that there's an OLD old book that should qualify, since it talks
>> about a parallel plane of existence or two, where you go after you're dead...
>>
>> Dave, and does the parallel universe have to be infinite, or can small ones
>> be counted?
>
> Small in which dimensions?

Any. 100 feet tall. Limited to twice five miles girdled round. A very small
asteroid that has a tree and a prince on it. Stephen Baxter's Xeelee series
has parallel universes involved (Raft, Ring), and one that seems to be one
but actually isn't (Flux). Discworld. Wonderland; it wasn't very large,
apparently, though the inhabitants knew about England and France... and the
world behind the Looking-Glass seems to only have had the area around the
house, and the 64 squares of the chessboard. Daniel Keys Moran's setting
that takes place after the Continuing Time's Wheel of Existence breaks up,
that's infinitely long, but goes up on one side to an infinitely high
mountain and out on the other side to an apparently endless desert. White
Wolf's Creation, which is a good deal bigger than the surface area of Earth
but which is bounded on all sides by the Wyld (Pure Chaos) and has a roof
several hundred miles up where the stars and planets and Sol and Luna display;
and its own parallel plane Yu-Shan, which is exactly the size and shape of
the Blessed Isle at the center of Creation in two dimensions and goes a ways
up but is also roofed over (the gods live there now; the Primordials did when
they were making the whole shebang). Eleventy-nine different models of
hyperspace in which it's coexistent with normal space, and coterminous
everywhere with it, BUT distances in it are way the heck smaller (as
distinguished from similar ones where the limiting speed there is far faster
than light). The Wood Between the Worlds didn't have boundaries visible from
where Polly and Digory were exploring it ... but Charn almost certainly did,
and Narnia's world had an Eastern edge at the very least.

> Um. You know, an exactly Earthlike Hell could get REALLY crowded if the
> Apocalypse doesn't happen for say three, four hundred thousand years.

Yep. ObSF: The Malazan Books of the Fallen ... where the various schools /
types / divisions / elemental qualities of sorcery - 'warrens' - are ALSO
parallel planes...

> Anthropomorphic souls could be stacked, but the curvature of Hell would eat
> into the angle of repose after a while and Satan's throne would eventually be
> buried. Eventually Hell would have to start a space program to export the
> surplus souls. That would make a fun story.

Baxter did a variant on this in Raft, though it was only hell-ish, not hell
in fact.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Don Kuenz]

The Starmaker <star...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> tony wrote:
>>
>> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
>
>
>
> if you're talking about books there is: The Lathe of Heaven
>
>
> if you're talking about other stuff stories:
> http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782

_The Lathe of Heaven_ is an excellent example. There's also _Thrice Upon
a Time_.

Can a double-slit apparatus and a detector function as a parallel
universe generator? You can randomly place the detector at slit A to
force a photon to pass through slit B and versa vice. The fly in the
ointment is that in your "home universe" you *always* randomly place the
detector in the same place. :(

Ouspensky argues that six dimensional space is continuous. You can take
a pencil on a table and either throw it or not throw it on the floor,
and derive two parallel universes. But, you can not throw an orange on
the floor that was never on the table in the first place.

--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.

What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say. - Emerson.

[The Starmaker]

gilber34 wrote:
>
> On 8/29/2015 8:40 PM, je suis charly wrote:
> > In article <mrtkg8$vg9$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, gilber34 <inv...@invalid.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> How can a universe tell if it is parallel to something outside it ?
> >>
> >> It cannot.
> >>
> >> Therefore, there cannot be "parallel universes".
>
> > No. Lack of evidence does not prove anything. At this time we have no evidence
> > of other universes, so it is speculation.
> >
> >> Therefore, all parallel universes intersect, and form a continuum a
> >> super universe.
>
> > Parallel objects never intersect. Intersecting objects do not have to be
> > positionned on top of each other.
> >
> >> and therefore, there is only one universe.
>
> > Non sequitur. There is evidence of one universe, and no evidence for or against
> > other universes. Therefore this universe exists and other universes are
> > currently speculative.
> >
>
> Or they intersect with this one, therefore are part of it, so there is
> only one universe.
>
> The main point is that a universe cannot "know" it is parallel to
> something outside it. As a universe consists of all known to it, to be
> contained inside it, and nothing is known, and cannot be known, outside
> of it. True ?


Whether or not parallel universe exist, certaintly the universe "knows"
of it's self..the universe is..'aware'.

The universe has it's own...consciousness.

[Butch Malahide]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 7:01:14 PM UTC-5, tony wrote:
> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?

A famous early one is "The Gostak and the Doshes" by Miles J.
Breuer, M.D., in the March 1939 Amazing Stories.

[Butch Malahide]

What a horrible typo. "The Gostak and the Doshes" was in the
March 1930 (not 1939) issue of Amazing Stories.

[Kevrob]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:42:30 AM UTC-4, The Starmaker wrote:


> Whether or not parallel universe exist, certaintly the universe "knows"
> of it's self..the universe is..'aware'.
>
> The universe has it's own...consciousness.

Sorry, SM. That's fantasy, not SF. If we want to use fantasy,
the otherworld, Faerie, Tír na nÓg, etc are parallel worlds.

Explaining mythological realms as alternate universes with
different physical laws than ours is an old theme in speculative
fiction, however. A story with a sentient parallel universe
would be cromulent. YASID, anybody?

Kevin R

[Mike M]

Stableford's _Swan Song_ (last of the _Hooded Swan_ sequence) features a
sentient pocket universe, leaching energy from ours via a spatial anomaly
called the Nightingale Nebula. It is too alien for humans to communicate
with.

--
So much universe, and so little time. - Sir Terry Pratchett

[David Johnston]

Chalker had a universe which had a god who would lightning bolt any
human who engaged in bad behaviour as I recall but was not the creator
of the universe, just the intelligence running it.

[The Starmaker]

Kevrob wrote:
>
> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:42:30 AM UTC-4, The Starmaker wrote:
>
> > Whether or not parallel universe exist, certaintly the universe "knows"
> > of it's self..the universe is..'aware'.
> >
> > The universe has it's own...consciousness.
>
> Sorry, SM. That's fantasy, not SF.

You're forgeting, your consciouness is a product of the universe.



The Starmaker

[William Vetter]

What is "cromulent?"

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:10:31 -0400, William Vetter
<mdha...@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:mrvnso$ves$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> What is "cromulent?"

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cromulent>

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Kevrob]

This universe contains conscious individuals,
at least one of them, anyway. More than that
I can't say.

I'm never quite sure that you aren't a `bot. :)

Kevin R

[William Vetter]

Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:10:31 -0400, William Vetter
> <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:mrvnso$ves$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> What is "cromulent?"
>
> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cromulent>
>
> Brian

I guess I'm not one of the cool kids.

[Butch Malahide]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 7:20:22 AM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:42:30 AM UTC-4, The Starmaker wrote:
>
>
> > Whether or not parallel universe exist, certaintly the universe "knows"
> > of it's self..the universe is..'aware'.
> >
> > The universe has it's own...consciousness.
>
> Sorry, SM. That's fantasy, not SF. If we want to use fantasy,
> the otherworld, Faerie, Tír na nÓg, etc are parallel worlds.
>
> Explaining mythological realms as alternate universes with
> different physical laws than ours is an old theme in speculative

> A story with a sentient parallel universe would be cromulent.
> YASID, anybody?

Maybe "Intruder" by Don Berry, in Venture SF, March, 1958?

[Thomas Heger]

This idea (presented above) stems from my own concept I call 'structured
spacetime'.

This was my attempt to connect GR and QM. My method was, that it could
be possible to make matter 'relative'.

Than matter is depending on the FoR and what is matter in one FoR is
radiation in another FoR.

The transit from one FoR to the other is a rotation of the axis of time.
This is similar to a Lorentz transform, but actually a little tricky.

But I made quite nice drawings and you may look at them in my 'book':
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6

Now I assume, that to any such axis belongs a 'time domain', where this
time is a valid measure and all clocks run the same.

This is associated with a 'universe', but this is not THE universe, but
it is actually the image of the universe as seen in this time domain.

The other domains have other images and would see another 'universe'.

And this is not parallel, but in an angle, since the transformation is a
rotation of the axis of time.


TH

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 30 August 2015 03:35:52 UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-08-29, nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 8:51:40 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:

> >> ... and does the parallel universe have to be infinite, or

> >> can small ones be counted?
> >
> > Small in which dimensions?
>
> Any. 100 feet tall. Limited to twice five miles girdled round. A very small
> asteroid that has a tree and a prince on it. Stephen Baxter's Xeelee series
> has parallel universes involved (Raft, Ring), and one that seems to be one
> but actually isn't (Flux). Discworld. Wonderland; it wasn't very large,
> apparently, though the inhabitants knew about England and France... and the
> world behind the Looking-Glass seems to only have had the area around the
> house, and the 64 squares of the chessboard. Daniel Keys Moran's setting
> that takes place after the Continuing Time's Wheel of Existence breaks up,
> that's infinitely long, but goes up on one side to an infinitely high
> mountain and out on the other side to an apparently endless desert.

I think some of these are other things than a parallel-universes
situation.

I think <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_One_Million>,
Superman comics set in the 853rd century and published
late in the twentieth, introduced "tesseract" as the 853-C
pocket-universe technology. But Doctor Who's TARDIS was
bigger inside than out in 1963. And C. S. Lewis's
wardrobe, in 1950. However, having more storage space
does not a "parallel universe" make.

I've mentioned that Marvel Comics has destroyed its multiverse
(ouch) and created a "Battleworld", but I don't count that
because it is the only universe there is (I understand this
is temporary and to be reversed), although it /contains/
"parallel" alternative versions of the same Marvel characters -
who fight, thus, I presume, "Battleworld". But their zones appear
to be bounded in three dimensions. I don't know what civilians
think about this, or if they're allowed to.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 30 August 2015 04:35:24 UTC+1, Don Kuenz wrote:
> The Starmaker <star...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > tony wrote:
> >>
> >> What are some of the earliest parallel universe stories?
> >
> >
> >
> > if you're talking about books there is: The Lathe of Heaven
> >
> >
> > if you're talking about other stuff stories:
> > http://www.hulu.com/watch/440782
>
> _The Lathe of Heaven_ is an excellent example. There's also _Thrice Upon
> a Time_.
>
> Can a double-slit apparatus and a detector function as a parallel
> universe generator? You can randomly place the detector at slit A to
> force a photon to pass through slit B and versa vice. The fly in the
> ointment is that in your "home universe" you *always* randomly place the
> detector in the same place. :(
>
> Ouspensky argues that six dimensional space is continuous. You can take
> a pencil on a table and either throw it or not throw it on the floor,
> and derive two parallel universes. But, you can not throw an orange on
> the floor that was never on the table in the first place.

But "something something virtual particle quantum foam" -
er - Professor.

Would universes merge - if the pencil is on the table, does
it matter whether you put it there or your wife did?

This could be a very fruitful field to explore regarding
household chores, until she catches on.

[William December Starr]

In article <u5k2ua96521tt4h6s...@4ax.com>,

Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> said:

> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote

>>> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I consider it absolutely essential; an alternate history
>>>> story is not at all the same thing as a parallel
>>>> universe story. By definition a parallel universe
>>>> story must have at least two universes coexisting
>>>> within the story.
>>
>>> If there is a parallel universe, why would it not suffice
>>> to write only about that universe to have the story be a
>>> parallel universe story?
>>
>> If you write *only* about that universe, there is no
>> evidence that it *is* a parallel universe rather than
>> simply an alternative universe.
>

> A reader could draw the parallels. "Hey, this is just like home
> except for the change in _____ and the developments after. I wonder
> why it did not happen that way here."

I'm with Brian. A line can't be parallel when it's the only line on
the paper.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <08f5acfa-19be-489b...@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> On the other hand, a "parallel Earth" like the
> Star Trek ones, elsewhere in space - which admittedly
> demands a lot of justification - lets you go there
> and fight Roman Legions or Nazis, and that'a all
> that you want really, isn't it?

I suspect that what most of the audience wanted was:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x25/Bread_and_Circuses_215.JPG

Except for the car perverts, of course:

http://images.fieroforum.com/2012/Brmz1O4.jpg

(And yes, I'm aware that that never actually happened in the episode itself.)

P.S.: Completely out of context, I just love this slide:

http://www.milkandcookiesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ST-Patterns-of-Force.jpg

> Also, Bizarro World, and, the planet that /looks/
> like the Earth but is actually a duplicate made
> so that the alien army can test their invasion
> tactics, or their android impersonators.

I think you've got that backwards, which of course is incredibly
appropriate since on Bizarro World is everything is the opposite
of Earth (for 1960s comic-book values of 'everything' anyway).

-- wds

[Robert Carnegie]

So Bizarro World is parallel - but it goes in the opposite direction!
That am still parallel!

So is Earth-3, where the Justice League character equivalents
are bad guys - the Crime Syndicate of America!

As for the Earth duplicated by aliens, Doctor Who has this
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Android_Invasion>
and in _Stargate SG-1_, one or more fake versions of the
SG-1 base. Not to mention the original _Stargate_ set in
fake ancient Egypt in space.

[Kevrob]

Heinlein's architect, Quintus Teal, did it in 1941, if only
by accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94And_He_Built_a_Crooked_House%E2%80%94%22

Prof. Kirke's wardrobe was just a doorway to a parallel universe.

> I've mentioned that Marvel Comics has destroyed its multiverse
> (ouch) and created a "Battleworld", but I don't count that
> because it is the only universe there is (I understand this
> is temporary and to be reversed), although it /contains/
> "parallel" alternative versions of the same Marvel characters -
> who fight, thus, I presume, "Battleworld". But their zones appear
> to be bounded in three dimensions. I don't know what civilians
> think about this, or if they're allowed to.

All comics characters eventually have to fight their evil
twins. It's a rule.

Which issues did the Girls of Riverdale do that?

Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 31 August 2015 23:50:56 UTC+1, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 6:48:59 AM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Doctor Who's TARDIS was
> > bigger inside than out in 1963. And C. S. Lewis's
> > wardrobe, in 1950. However, having more storage space
> > does not a "parallel universe" make.
>
> Heinlein's architect, Quintus Teal, did it in 1941, if only
> by accident.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94And_He_Built_a_Crooked_House%E2%80%94%22

I wasn't sure if we mentioned that already. Wikipedia's page
about what a "tesseract" really is, i.e. a hypercube - for a
suitable value of "really" - has a familiar graphic. And
another that's animated; I think someone reported feeling
uncomfortably hypnotised from playing with a long-ago do-it-
yourself semi-equivalent visualisation tool offered in those
old _Scientific American_ columns by Martin Gardner, but
I don't remember whether they were worried about
self-hypnosis in general or four-dimensional
visualisation in particular. The latter is the
sort of thing that leads to children in a certain
type of sci-fi story wandering off on a four-coordinate
vector... in any case, maybe one /not/ to watch so
you gradually see how it works.

> Prof. Kirke's wardrobe was just a doorway to a parallel universe.

I might be misremembering but I think the first thing was
that it goes farther back than a wardrobe should, but it's
still coats... I wonder how many coats Professor Kirke
owns, and why; I suppose the latter answer may be "to keep
out the cold". If your closet leads to the Arctic then
you probably can't have too many coats.

[William December Starr]

In article <e88bfc9c-0cf7-4e2a...@googlegroups.com>,

As best as I can recall the alien setting in "Stargate" the movie
wasn't created or intended as a duplicate of something else though,
and nobody was trying to deceive anyone with it.

(When you can land a pyramid on somebody's head, you generally don't
_need_ to deceive them.)

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <dc476ac2-e58e-4de5...@googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> I think <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_One_Million>,
> Superman comics set in the 853rd century and published
> late in the twentieth, introduced "tesseract" as the 853-C
> pocket-universe technology. But Doctor Who's TARDIS was
> bigger inside than out in 1963. And C. S. Lewis's
> wardrobe, in 1950. However, having more storage space
> does not a "parallel universe" make.

It's an interesting[1] philosophical question whether the wardrobe
_contains_ Narnia et al inside it, or is just a portal to those
environs.

-----------
*1: I.e., pointless.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <c13ce69b-d64e-4192...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> said:

> All comics characters eventually have to fight their evil
> twins. It's a rule.
>
> Which issues did the Girls of Riverdale do that?

But... the Bender Problem.

(Also other characters here and there throughout fantasy where
mention of the term "evil twin" is met with "how can you tell?")

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <f31d4e5c-3b1a-4f91...@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> Wasn't there a 1970s (?) film where an astronaut
> eventually figures out that he's landed on
> Counter-Earth, on the far side of the sun,
> and needs to take off again to get to the
> right Planet Earth? ...oh:
> _Journey to the Far Side of the Sun_ (1969).
> Also / originally known as _Doppelganger_.

From Gerry "Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, Space: 1999, etc." Anderson.

> (He was actually aiming for Counter-Earth
> but he didn't realise that it was a
> mirror-universe Earth, so when he landed,
> he just assumed that he was on his own Earth,
> apart from things like clocks running
> anticlockwise and cars driving the opposite
> side of the road - well, those were the clues.)

And the fascist regime that was out to hunt down and exterminate all
right-handed people. (Or was it left-handed?)

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <s2v3uat6qq19hmq0n...@jwbrown.co.uk>,
Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> said:

> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there a _Lost in Space_
>
> The was an episode where Smith tried to prevent his earlier self
> from being trapped on the ship when it launched, which should have
> been the branch point for an alternate present, but events
> conspired to preserve the original timeline.

"The Time Merchant." Which had one of the the greatest moments in
television history: the Robot and Doctor Smith, in the past, try to
get on board the pre-launch Jupiter II before it lifts off but the
sliding door of the ship's hatchway closes too soon, leaving them
outside the ship with Smith's foot caught in the door as the
countdown approaches zero.

SMITH: Oh no! We'll be incinerated!

ROBOT: Correction: _I_ will be incinerated. _You_ will just look
silly hanging by your toes in space.

> This was also done as an episode of Land of the Giants and every
> episode of The Time Tunnel.

Not _every_ episode. In a few of them our heroes got bounced into
the future rather than the past, sometimes as far forward as the
distant year 1983. In those cases there of course wasn't any
original timeline, at least not from the viewpoint of the tv
viewership.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <eca59ff0-c127-44ce...@googlegroups.com>,
"nu...@bid.nes" <Alie...@gmail.com> said:

> For travel between the always-in-place kind, the number and
> signature of dimensions, physical constants, and so on have to be
> the same, otherwise you'd frinst briefly be extremely radioactive
> in many of them. In others you'd instantly collapse to a black
> hole, your nuclei would have too many/not enough kinds of quarks
> making you even more radioactive even more briefly, or other
> awkward hilarities would ensue.

I dunno. We've been smart enough to develop protective apparati
that allow humans to stay alive underwater or in a vacuum, by
preserving a small volume of space in which a human-life-sustaining
environment is maintained regardless of the harsh conditions outside
that volume; so why not one that preserves a bit of our universe
regardless of what's outside it? It's just an engineering problem
really...

(I have the vague impression, from comments in this thread and
elsewhere, that that's exactly what's going on in some Stephen
Baxter stories that I'm probably never going to read.)

-- wds

[Greg Goss]

On South Park, you look for a van Dyke beard. Of course the "evil
Cartman" was thoughtful and considerate.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[William December Starr]

In article <d89c74b8-dc95-421a...@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> Is there a _Lost in Space_ or _The Wild Wild West_ or
> _Captain Video_ parallel universe story? (That isn't
> "just a dream" in the end - preferably, but I'm open
> to it. Also, alien duplicates.)

I'm almost certain that "The Wild Wild West" never went there, not
even when Dr. Loveless was doing odd stuff to the walls of reality.

(He _did_ once invent a method for entering and returning from the
worlds in paintings, but that's not really a parallel universe thing.)

-- wds

[pete...@gmail.com]

I think you have it backwards. In-universe, Ancient Egypt was a failed
Goa'uld colony, the style of which the abandoned humans continued to
imitate, cargo-cult style. So it was ancient Egypt which was the fake.

pt

[William December Starr]

In article <d4p4h4...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> said:

> On South Park, you look for a van Dyke beard. Of course the "evil
> Cartman" was thoughtful and considerate.

I believe that's The Goatee of Evil.

-- wds

[Jerry Brown]

On 2 Sep 2015 16:16:44 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

Starr) wrote:

>In article <s2v3uat6qq19hmq0n...@jwbrown.co.uk>,
>Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> said:
>
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a _Lost in Space_
>>
>> The was an episode where Smith tried to prevent his earlier self
>> from being trapped on the ship when it launched, which should have
>> been the branch point for an alternate present, but events
>> conspired to preserve the original timeline.
>
>"The Time Merchant." Which had one of the the greatest moments in
>television history: the Robot and Doctor Smith, in the past, try to
>get on board the pre-launch Jupiter II before it lifts off but the
>sliding door of the ship's hatchway closes too soon, leaving them
>outside the ship with Smith's foot caught in the door as the
>countdown approaches zero.
>
>SMITH: Oh no! We'll be incinerated!
>
>ROBOT: Correction: _I_ will be incinerated. _You_ will just look
>silly hanging by your toes in space.

Heh, heh, heh. LIS did have moments.

But I did prefer the only-slightly-camp-but-still-very-menacing Smith
of the early episodes. And I really hope Robert "T-Bag" Knepper is
available for the part he was born to play next time they try for a
revival.

>> This was also done as an episode of Land of the Giants and every
>> episode of The Time Tunnel.
>
>Not _every_ episode. In a few of them our heroes got bounced into
>the future rather than the past, sometimes as far forward as the
>distant year 1983.

True, I exaggerated a bit for effect.

But how could I have forgotten Robert Duvall in a giant hive in the
year one million trying to hide from the approaching buzzing sounds
like a child crawling under his bedsheets. And how much more effective
it was that the tunnel viewer lost the connection BEFORE we saw
whatever lame prop the art department could have come up with to
represent the giant bees. Truly chilling.

> In those cases there of course wasn't any
>original timeline, at least not from the viewpoint of the tv
>viewership.
>
>-- wds

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

[David Johnston]

There's still time. "Eventually" is an open-ended concept. And of
course Archie did run into an evil double except for the buck teeth.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> (When you can land a pyramid on somebody's head, you generally don't
> _need_ to deceive them.)

Heh. Every thread appears to end up as an unexpected "review of _A Succession
of Bad Days_" thread. :)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:

> It's an interesting[1] philosophical question whether the wardrobe
> _contains_ Narnia et al inside it, or is just a portal to those
> environs.

? Clearly just a portal; the wardrobe didn't exist until the Tree that grew
from the apple Digory & Polly were given died and was cut down, and D&P
visited Narnia long before then. As did the ancestors of the humans in the
countries around Narnia...

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:

ObSF: Greg Egan, _Schild's Ladder_, and, in another sense, no really, Piers
Anthony, _Centaur Aisle_.

Dave, hmm, and let's CORRECT this typo that's been in my booklist file for OVER
THIRTY YEARS NOW shall we?

ps: okay, maybe not, I think I originally had the Xanth books listed by number,
not name, because the file was originally on a floppy disk for my Apple ][e -
but it's still been A While since I expanded it to listed-by-name

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:

> I'm almost certain that "The Wild Wild West" never went there, not
> even when Dr. Loveless was doing odd stuff to the walls of reality.
>
> (He _did_ once invent a method for entering and returning from the
> worlds in paintings, but that's not really a parallel universe thing.)

... so how did those -differ- from parallel universes?

Dave

[David Johnston]

On 9/2/2015 7:44 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> I'm almost certain that "The Wild Wild West" never went there, not
>> even when Dr. Loveless was doing odd stuff to the walls of reality.
>>
>> (He _did_ once invent a method for entering and returning from the
>> worlds in paintings, but that's not really a parallel universe thing.)
>
> ... so how did those -differ- from parallel universes?
>
> Dave
>

They were pocket universes, I suspect.

[Butch Malahide]

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 10:05:22 AM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 31 August 2015 14:27:14 UTC+1, William December Starr wrote:

> > Robert Carnegie said:
> > > Also, Bizarro World, and, the planet that /looks/
> > > like the Earth but is actually a duplicate made
> > > so that the alien army can test their invasion
> > > tactics, or their android impersonators.
> >
> > I think you've got that backwards, which of course is incredibly
> > appropriate since on Bizarro World is everything is the opposite
> > of Earth (for 1960s comic-book values of 'everything' anyway).
>
> So Bizarro World is parallel - but it goes in the opposite direction!
> That am still parallel!
>
> So is Earth-3, where the Justice League character equivalents
> are bad guys - the Crime Syndicate of America!
>
> As for the Earth duplicated by aliens, Doctor Who has this
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Android_Invasion>
> and in _Stargate SG-1_, one or more fake versions of the
> SG-1 base. Not to mention the original _Stargate_ set in
> fake ancient Egypt in space.

"Earth duplicated by aliens" is the theme of the 1946 story
"Extra Earth" by Ross Rocklynne.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

In that case, what about Farmer's _World Of Tiers_?


Mark L. Fergerson

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 3 September 2015 02:37:08 UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-09-02, William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> > It's an interesting[1] philosophical question whether the wardrobe
> > _contains_ Narnia et al inside it, or is just a portal to those
> > environs.
>
> ? Clearly just a portal; the wardrobe didn't exist until the Tree that grew
> from the apple Digory & Polly were given died and was cut down, and D&P
> visited Narnia long before then. As did the ancestors of the humans in the
> countries around Narnia...

Well, _The Magician's Nephew_ is retcon, but after the first book
(and before), people enter and leave Narnia by non-wardrobe means.

I'm not sure at what point we're told that the cosmology is
"all in Plato", nor what that implies for this question.

As far as I remember, none of the characters think they're
inside the wardrobe throughout the story; they are recognised
by Narnians as emissaries, or evacuees‘, /from/ the Drobe of War.
(The story is set during the Second World Drobe.)

[Robert Carnegie]

There's an episode in Roger Zalazny's second run of Amber books
where some special pictures are presented as, and evidently are,
live scenes in parallel realities. One of these first appeared
as an actual painting - I think - so it isn't exactly clear how
it got to be real, but since it's just a car in a house driveway,
you could just obtain the right kind of car. It turns out that
you can reach in or step into the picture, and can't leave the
frame, but you can pick stuff up and take it with you.

Something similar, but with time travel, happens in TV comedy
_Red Dwarf_ episode "Timeslides", where I think they use
radioactive photo developing fluid (!) to enter photographs
of the past, and change history - they can't step outside
the photograph but they can interact with people and objects
in that time, er, frame.