Women in Art
Arthur Wohlwill
In article <31a6ae0f...@news.direct.ca> rbeh...@direct.ca writes:
>Subject: Re: Women in Art
>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
>>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
>>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
>>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
>>hear that as well.
Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Janis Joplin, numerous Opera singers
Grandma Moses
Arthur Wohlwill Adwo...@UIC.EDU
--
bob storti
University of Illinois at Chicago
E-Mail: rvst...@uic.edu
Anthony Dauer
What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
hear that as well.
thank you,
Anthony
<jack...@erols.com>
Please respond to my personal email address as well as to the group. I do
not always receive timely updates to the newsgroups from either of my
providers at work or at home.
BlackwellL
jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes in Message-ID:
>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
I'm
>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This
is
>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like
to
>hear that as well.
Well, off the top of my head...
Sappho
Jane Austen, credited with inventing the dynamic character
Katherine Anne Porter, the first of the great Southern American writers
Kathe Kollwitz, World War II era artist
Virginia Woolf
Gertrude Stein (both a writer and an art connoisseur)
Ursula K. Le Guin, writer of intellectual science fiction
Connie Willis, who has won more Nebula awards (given by the SF&Fantasy
Writers Ass'n., and thus a peer award) than anyone else
...and....
although I wouldn't thank her for it, Anne Rice really did set the
standard for contemporary vampire novels.
That's excluding the writers, artists, cartoonists and illustrators whose
names escape me at the moment. It also excludes the women who set
standards by being excellent editors or patrons of the arts.
I doubt that you'll convince your adversary with any amount of evidence,
but good luck.
--Laura
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <4o2jab$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, black...@aol.com says...
>
>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes in Message-ID:
>
>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
>Sappho
Good.
>Jane Austen, credited with inventing the dynamic character
Um... she is? She invented the mannered romance novel, but dynamic
characters had been around before that. Still a good choice.
>Katherine Anne Porter, the first of the great Southern American writers
Eh.
>Kathe Kollwitz, World War II era artist
Eh again.
>Virginia Woolf
Okay.
>Gertrude Stein (both a writer and an art connoisseur)
REALLY overrated, in my opinion.
>Ursula K. Le Guin, writer of intellectual science fiction
Good choice.
>Connie Willis, who has won more Nebula awards (given by the SF&Fantasy
> Writers Ass'n., and thus a peer award) than anyone else
Are you SURE she's won more than Harlan Ellison? And it's Science Fiction &
Fantasy Writers of America, Inc., not "The," and not "Association."
>...and....
>although I wouldn't thank her for it, Anne Rice really did set the
>standard for contemporary vampire novels.
Yup.
Now, you missed Lady Murasaki, who wrote THE STORY OF GENJI, the first true
novel -- often neglected because it's Japanese, but it beat the westerners
by a century or so. That DEFINITELY set a standard.
Charlotte and Emily Bronte created the Gothic romance (as opposed to the
already-existing Gothic novel and the already-existing romance novel), or at
least set the standard.
In science fiction, Leigh Brackett set the standard in a certain style of
other-world adventure; C.L. Moore, Judith Merril, Anne McCaffrey, Andre
Norton, and Marion Zimmer Bradley each established a specific subgenre.
Mary Shelley invented science fiction, mad scientists, and modern horror
with FRANKENSTEIN, or The Modern Prometheus.
Charlotte Gilman set the standard for psychological horror in 1896 with "The
Yellow Wallpaper." (Admittedly, the bar got moved higher by Bloch and
Matheson in the 1950s.)
Emily Dickinson. 'Nuff said.
Harriet Beecher Stowe: Political propaganda, a standard that held until the
First World War.
I'm irked, though, that I can't think of anyone in the visual arts. Sonia
Delaunay, maybe?
--
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
or see The Misenchanted Page at http://www.greyware.com/authors/LWE/
The Horror Writers Association Page is at http://www.horror.org/HWA/
J Evans
>Now, you missed Lady Murasaki, who wrote THE STORY OF GENJI, the first true
>novel -- often neglected because it's Japanese, but it beat the westerners
>by a century or so. That DEFINITELY set a standard.
Yer stealin' mah thunder here, Lawrence. (Good thing I read to the end of
the thread before piping up)
>Mary Shelley invented science fiction, mad scientists, and modern horror
>with FRANKENSTEIN, or The Modern Prometheus.
Written, I hasten to add, when she was *eighteen*. Makes all the rest of us
wannabe writers hang our head in shame.
>Charlotte Gilman set the standard for psychological horror in 1896 with "The
>Yellow Wallpaper." (Admittedly, the bar got moved higher by Bloch and
>Matheson in the 1950s.)
...and higher yet by Shirley Jackson of "The Lottery" and THE HAUNTING.
Agatha Christie, of course, defined the modern mystery novel. (Which goes
back to Doyle, which goes back to Poe, but the point still stands.)
>I'm irked, though, that I can't think of anyone in the visual arts. Sonia
>Delaunay, maybe?
Well, there's Leni TRIUMPH OF THE WILL Reifenstahl, who really did set the
standard for documentary film, if for a repulsive cause.
Marie Curie, but I don't know enough to judge that case.
Aung San Suu Kyi; I suppose Ghandi really set that standard, but still an
extraordinary person.
Jon
http://sunee.uwaterloo.ca/~jemevans
"Technically, Horselover Fat had become a Buddha. It did not seem like a
good idea to tell him this. After all, if you are a Buddha you should
be able to figure it out for yourself." - Philip K. Dick, VALIS
Steve Patterson
In article <JEMEVANS.2...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, JEME...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (J Evans) says:
>
>In article <4o303c$h...@clarknet.clark.net> lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes:
>
>>Mary Shelley invented science fiction, mad scientists, and modern horror
>>with FRANKENSTEIN, or The Modern Prometheus.
>
>Written, I hasten to add, when she was *eighteen*. Makes all the rest of us
>wannabe writers hang our head in shame.
Yeah? Well, what has she done *recently*...?
---
"Animals have contempt for animal rights; cats don't treasure diversity,
except in a gustatory sense." -- Frederica Mathewes-Green
<BRAG>Creator and maintainer of the Legions of Steel Web Page!</BRAG>
http://www.hookup.net/~losglobl
Paul Clarke
In article <4o303c$h...@clarknet.clark.net>, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
Watt-Evans) writes:
>In article <4o2jab$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, black...@aol.com says...
>>
>>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes in Message-ID:
>>
>>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
>
>>Sappho
>
>Good.
>
>>Jane Austen, credited with inventing the dynamic character
>
>Um... she is? She invented the mannered romance novel, but dynamic
>characters had been around before that. Still a good choice.
>
I was a bit surprised by that claim too (or is 'dynamic' being used
in some technical sense?). I have read (can't remember where) that
she invented the technique of free indirect speech. Does anyone know
whether or not this is true?
There's also George Elliot (aka Marian Evans), whose novel _Middlemarch_
I have seen cited as the greatest English novel.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <Drx4z...@isltd.insignia.com>, pa...@broken.isltd.insignia.com
says...
>
>There's also George Elliot (aka Marian Evans), whose novel _Middlemarch_
>I have seen cited as the greatest English novel.
Um, no, that was Mary Ann Evans. Marian Evans is my oldest sister's maiden
name. Entirely different person.
I think she spelled Eliot with one L, rather than two, but I'm not at all
sure.
Todd
lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) wrote:
Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
Pedantry alert! Look out, I'm going to wax pedantic!
It's a minor point, but actually:
Miss Evans started life as Mary Ann Evans.
Some time in young adulthood she started signing her name "Marian".
And yes, she spelled it "Eliot", with only one "L".
All clear! Pedantry alert is over!
Oh, by the way, if we're still looking for female standard-setters in
the arts, how about Mary Cassatt? One of the great late 19th-century
painters. And how about Clara Wieck Schumann as a composer? And what
about the writer Sigrid Undset, who won the Nobel Prize for her
three-volume novel of medieval Norway, *Kristin Lavransdatter*?
rbeh...@direct.ca
jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) wrote:
>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
>hear that as well.
On a Canadian basis, Emily Carr (widely recognized (up here?) painter)
and Margaret Laurence, one of the foremost Canadian authors (died).
Stephanie A. Hall
I think LeGuin can also be credited with bringing an informed
anthropological perspective to SF. Other authors were interested in culture
before she entered the field, of course, but she is the one who really
developed ethnographic sf informed by a knowledge of the discipline.
Other Women artists who "set standards" --
Dance:
Isadora Duncan
Martha Graham
(How could there be modern dance without them?)
Painting:
Mary Cassatt (American Painter. She was the only woman accepted among the
elite group of French impressionists [check an encyclopedia on that. I've
forgetten the correct title of the group]. Her special subject was
mother and child. I'd expect that any artist today depicting mother and
child in _any_ medium would study Mary Cassatt's work.)
Writing & etc:
I think it is correct to say Gertrude Stein (who someone mentioned) and
George Sand are extremely important to the arts, both for the work
they did and (perhaps more importantly) for their participation in
the artistic communities of their times. They also went around busting
stereotypes about women as artists (and as human beings) right and left
which had a lasting impact on the arts. Maybe they should be noted for
kicking standards to pieces rather than setting them?
Stephanie
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist - sh...@loc.gov
Library of Congress, Washington, DC 20540-8100
Opinions mine
nstn4752
rbeh...@direct.ca wrote:
>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) wrote:
I'd also like to add Margaret Atwood- I immensly enjoyed all of her
work and IMHO beleive that she has opened a new vein of literature...
-Aurora
Jennifer Barber
> Charlotte and Emily Bronte created the Gothic romance (as opposed to the
> already-existing Gothic novel and the already-existing romance novel), or at
> least set the standard.
I've also read that Anne Bronte's Tenant of Wildfell Hall can be
considered the first feminist novel. However, I can't recall *where* I
read that, and as I prefer to read literature rather than study it, I have
no idea how true that claim may be....
jennifer
--
*** j.ba...@dartmouth.edu *** http://www.dartmouth.edu/~jbarber/ ***
"We're all misfits, I guess, in the theatre. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.
We'd be out building things, selling things, making money, writing letters
to the editor, and paying our taxes with the long form." M. Kandel, "Ogre"
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
J Evans (JEME...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) wrote: [snip]
> Well, there's Leni TRIUMPH OF THE WILL Reifenstahl [snip]
^^
Leni Riefenstahl.
Oh, and Connie Willis has four Nebulas under her belt vs. two in case of
Ellison. (But Ellison has won six Hugos, two more than Willis.)
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew
John Bayko
In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
I think that the vast majority of embroidery arts have been advanced
almost exclusively by women, who have mostly gone unnamed.
--
John Bayko (Tau).
ba...@cs.uregina.ca
http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko
Bob Rodgers
nstn...@fox.nstn.ca (nstn4752) wrote:
>I'd also like to add Margaret Atwood- I immensly enjoyed all of her
>work and IMHO beleive that she has opened a new vein of literature...
Whiney psuedo-feminist tripe?
Hmm. I think others already opened that vein.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~rsrodger homepage & gallery
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~rsrodger/project.htm rsro...@wam.umd.edu
J Evans
>about the writer Sigrid Undset, who won the Nobel Prize for her
>three-volume novel of medieval Norway, *Kristin Lavransdatter*?
I'm not familiar with Sigrid Undset, and she may indeed by a great artist,
but I'm very dubious about using a Nobel Prize (particularly in literature)
as evidence for greatness: it is instructive to compare a list of selected
Nobel laureates and a list of great writers who did not win.
Patrick O'Connell
Stephanie A. Hall wrote:
> Other Women artists who "set standards" --..
> Painting:
>
> Mary Cassatt (American Painter. She was the only woman accepted among the
> elite group of French impressionists [check an encyclopedia on that. I've
> forgetten the correct title of the group]. Her special subject was
> mother and child. I'd expect that any artist today depicting mother and
> child in _any_ medium would study Mary Cassatt's work.)
>
I think Georgia O'Keefe ought to be added in here. Amazing paintings,
in my pesonal opinion. Standard setter? Probably broke the mold.
>
> Stephanie
>
> Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist - sh...@loc.gov
> Library of Congress, Washington, DC 20540-8100
> Opinions mine
Patrick O'Connell
No art credentials, but I know what I like!
Phil
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
>
> Oh, and Connie Willis has four Nebulas under her belt vs. two in case of
> Ellison. (But Ellison has won six Hugos, two more than Willis.)
Waitaminnit... I'm not completely sure, but didn't Connie Willis write a short
story called "At the Rialto"? Published, oh, maybe ten years or so ago in _Omni_
magazine? I liked that story so much that I clipped it out of the magazine and
saved it... and I never do that... and I think I still have it somewhere...
Of course, I read this was when I was young and impressionable and before I went to
college and took ACTUAL subatomic physics classes... which, of course, included
discussions of Schroedinger's cat far, FAR less often than, say, requiring us to
solve three-variable integrals (or not, in my case). A big regret of mine is that
a class entitled (approximately) "The Philosophy of Physics" was never offered at a
time/semester when I could take it.
:P
Stephanie A. Hall
A reader of this thread e-mailed me privately to point out that there
were other important women impressionists besides Cassatt, naming Berthe
Morisot for one. In case anyone else reacted the same way to my post, here
is my response, followed by a comment:
Yes, there were many other women impressionists. Cassatt was the
only one _accepted_ among the group of French artists who founded
the movement. The Impressionist School which formally set themselves
apart from the French Salon was a closed circle of artists (Degas, Manet,
Monet, Pissarro, Cezanne, and Cassatt -- and some others). Organizations
of artists at that time, like organizations of scholars and businessmen,
nearly always shut out women. Even if women were among the founders of a
movement and recognized by their peers, they often were shut out because
of the fear that women's participation would make the new movement seem
trivial. Women artists (and scholars etc) were seen as dilitantes from
the upper classes who "dabbled" and were not to be taken seriously. This
was why George Sand, George Eliot, and many other artists and writers
changed their names. So Cassatt's achievement in breaking into this
circle (and actually keeping her name!) is noteworthy. Again, my
references on this at home are sparce, so if you are interested, you
should look for an art history book on the subject.
---------
This is actually an important issue in this thread. Many of the women
who did set standards in the arts (as well as other fields) did so at great
odds. Women innovators were often overshadowed by their male counterparts
because men were taken more seriously, shut out of the elite circles of
men in that field lest their gender jepordize the movement, or had to
conceal their gender in order to participate. That is why claims that
"women never achieved anything in X field" are so infuriating. Not only
are the claims wrong, because many women have overcome the odds and made
remarkable achievements, but it is a perpetuation of the bias that makes
it so hard for women to achieve in the first place.
Someone pointed out that the mother of science fiction was Mary Shelly.
Even so, many women writers in the field, even today, publish under names
that conceal their gender. The bias that women do not write "serious"
novels that caused Mary Ann Evans to write as George Eliot still abounds
-- even on this list, where some seem to think that "serious" sf is only
written by men. Some things are very slow to change.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <4o9lvl$1d...@rs7.loc.gov>, sh...@loc.gov says...
>Someone pointed out that the mother of science fiction was Mary Shelly.
>Even so, many women writers in the field, even today, publish under names
>that conceal their gender. The bias that women do not write "serious"
>novels that caused Mary Ann Evans to write as George Eliot still abounds
>-- even on this list, where some seem to think that "serious" sf is only
>written by men. Some things are very slow to change.
Shelley.
I just wanted to point out that the situation in SF really IS improving --
Shariann Lewitt is now using her real name rather than the "S.N. Lewitt" Ace
insisted on (because GURLS can't write military SF!). I know of no case
more recent than hers where a publisher insisted on hiding a female writer's
sex; the women still writing under ambiguous or masculine names (Andre
Norton, C.J. Cherryh, Julian May, etc.) have all been writing for many years
now, and changing an established byline is not common.
Anthony D Gunter
You guys seem to have forgotten Mother Goose. I've been
a huge fan of hers for nearly 29 years!!
BlackwellL
pa...@broken.isltd.insignia.com (Paul Clarke) writes in Message-ID:
<Drx4z...@isltd.insignia.com>
In article <4o303c$h...@clarknet.clark.net>, lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence
Watt-Evans) writes:
>In article <4o2jab$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, black...@aol.com says...
>>
>>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes in Message-ID:
(snip)
>
>>Jane Austen, credited with inventing the dynamic character
>
>Um... she is? She invented the mannered romance novel, but dynamic
>characters had been around before that. Still a good choice.
>
I was a bit surprised by that claim too (or is 'dynamic' being used
in some technical sense?). I have read (can't remember where) that
she invented the technique of free indirect speech. Does anyone know
whether or not this is true?
I could swear *some* English prof told me about the dynamic character
claim, but it's been a while, and I'd be willing to drop the point in
favor of the more easily defensible credits to Austen.
Laura
BlackwellL
My fiance suggested Janis Joplin, the musician. That made me think of
Annie Leibowitz, the photographer.
lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes in Message-ID:
<4o303c$h...@clarknet.clark.net>:
>In article <4o2jab$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, black...@aol.com says...
>>
>>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes in Message-ID:
>>
>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
>>Sappho
>>Good.
Actually, I've been thinking about retracting that one. Her poetry was,
IIRC, largely ignored in her own time.
>>Katherine Anne Porter, the first of the great Southern American writers
>Eh.
She wrote many excellent short stories, including the cycle "The Old
Order," a book of three long stories (_Pale Horse, Pale Rider_), and one
novel,_Ship of Fools._ Eudora Welty and Robert Penn Warren both admit a
great debt to her.
>>Connie Willis, who has won more Nebula awards (given by the SF&Fantasy
>> Writers Ass'n., and thus a peer award) than anyone else
>Are you SURE she's won more than Harlan Ellison? And it's Science
Fiction &
>Fantasy Writers of America, Inc., not "The," and not "Association."
I can't believe I slaughtered that acronym like that. My apologies. And
the last time I checked, Willis had 6 Nebulas (Nebulae?), which was the
record at that time. This year's awards may have changed the standings.
EllenDat
>>>>Subject: Re: Connie Willis (was Women in Art)
>From: Phil <meta...@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:13:58 -0700
>Message-ID: <31A804...@ix.netcom.com>
"At the Rialto" was published by OMNI in October 1989. It won the Nebula
and was nominated for the Hugo.
Ellen Datlow
Fiction Editor
OMNI
http://www.omnimag.com
Barry DeCicco
In article <4o7psk$f...@sue.cc.uregina.ca>, ba...@BOREALIS.CS.UREGINA.CA (John Bayko) writes:
|> In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
|> Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
|> >
|>
|> almost exclusively by women, who have mostly gone unnamed.
|>
|> --
|> John Bayko (Tau).
|> ba...@cs.uregina.ca
|> http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko
I think that in poetry, women have definitely set the standards.
When they weren't doing it, they were judging the men on how
well they did it.
This might apply to many of the 'courtly' arts.
Barry
PS Of course, the big problem is what got published.
No publication -> little chance of being known, later.
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Phil (meta...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
> > Oh, and Connie Willis has four Nebulas under her belt
Five, actually - I was counting years and not individual awards. 1992
counts as two awards:
1982
Novelette: "Fire Watch" by Connie Willis
1988
Novella: "The Last of the Winnebagos" by Connie Willis
1989
Novelette: "At the Rialto" by Connie Willis
1992
Novel: _Doomsday Book_ by Connie Willis
Short Story: "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis
> > vs. two in case of Ellison.
This is incorrect. Three Nebulas, not two (my source needs a tune-up):
1965
Short Story: "'Repent, Harlequin!', Said the Ticktockman" by Harlan Ellison
1969
Novella: "A Boy and His Dog" by Harlan Ellison
1977
Short Story: "Jeffty is Five" by Harlan Ellison
>> (But Ellison has won six Hugos, two more than Willis.)
The Hugo situation is a bit murky with 4.5 or 5 Hugos being approx.
correct in case of Willis:
1983
Novelette: "Fire Watch" by Connie Willis
1989
Novella: "The Last of the Winnebagos" by Connie Willis
1993
Novel: "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge,
"Doomsday Book" by Connie Willis (tie)
Short Story: "Even the Queen" by Connie Willis
1994
Short Story: "Death on the Nile" by Connie Willis
and up to 11 in case of Ellison (depending on how you count):
1966
Short Fiction: "'Repent, Harlequin!' Said the Ticktockman" by Harlan
Ellison
1968
Short Story: "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison
Dramatic Presentation: "City on the Edge of Forever" (Star Trek; by Harlan
Ellison)
Special Awards:
Harlan Ellison, for "Dangerous Visions"
1969
Short Story: "The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World"
by Harlan Ellison
1972
Special Awards: Harlan Ellison for excellence in anthologizing
("Again, Dangerous Visions")
1974
Novelette: "The Deathbird" by Harlan Ellison
1975
Novelette: "Adrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans" by Harlan Ellison
1976
Dramatic Presentation: A Boy and his Dog [but not Ellison personally]
1978
Short Story: "Jeffty is Five" by Harlan Ellison
1986
Novelette: "Paladin of the Lost Hour" by Harlan Ellison
> Waitaminnit... I'm not completely sure, but didn't Connie Willis write a
> short story called "At the Rialto"?
Yup.
Oh well, goes to show that ISFDB isn't a terribly reliable source when it
comes to awards. At least not yet. I should've known... :(
Stephanie A. Hall
I a forwarding the following to this thread at the request of the author.
Reply to Therese Leigh. -- SAH :
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:14:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: THERESE LEIGH <SL...@cc.usu.edu>
To: sh...@loc.gov
Subject: Re: Women in Art
>This is actually an important issue in this thread. Many of the women
>who did set standards in the arts (as well as other fields) did so at great
>odds. Women innovators were often overshadowed by their male counterparts
>because men were taken more seriously, shut out of the elite circles of
>men in that field lest their gender jepordize the movement, or had to
>conceal their gender in order to participate. That is why claims that
>"women never achieved anything in X field" are so infuriating. Not only
>are the claims wrong, because many women have overcome the odds and made
>remarkable achievements, but it is a perpetuation of the bias that makes
>it so hard for women to achieve in the first place.
>
>Someone pointed out that the mother of science fiction was Mary Shelly.
>Even so, many women writers in the field, even today, publish under names
>that conceal their gender. The bias that women do not write "serious"
>novels that caused Mary Ann Evans to write as George Eliot still abounds
>-- even on this list, where some seem to think that "serious" sf is only
>written by men. Some things are very slow to change.
>
>Stephanie
>
>Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist - sh...@loc.gov
Indeed, yes. And add to what you have so astutely pointed out, the fact
thatwomen for centuries have been denied an equal education with men and
apprenticeships in the arts. It was astonishing that in the patriarchal a
militaristic ancient and classical worlds that Sappho had a reputation on
a par with Homer. Yet, we have seen in the preservation of the literary
works of Greece and Rome a bias against women. Sappho's works survive
today only in scant fragments. Clodia Metulli, the mistress of Catullus,
wrote poetry thatcaused him to compare her with Sappho so much that he gave
her the name Lesbia. Yet, none of her works survive. To read about her in
the poems of Catullus and in the oratory and letters of Cicero is to know
that she was a woman who was a groundbreaker in the history of feminism,
living with the same freedom that men claimed as their right in a time
when women were expected to be the meek and modest denizens of the
home--that was their only proper domain until women like Clodia dared to
break the rules. Yet, her works, which would have been very interesting
to scholars from both a sociological and literary point of view,
failed to survive during the centuries when the conservators of classical
literature were Arab scholars and the copyists in monasteries--both male
dominated institutions. So, we simply do not know what literary works may
have been created by women during those periods in history.
In western art, some of the earliest treasures are Greek vases. We know the
names of very few vase painters--like Ezekias. How many women may have
createdthese masterpieces is also unknown because they are unsigned.
Oh, please add Louise Nevelson and Georgia O'Keefe to the list of great 20th
century artists--and Maya Linn--creator of the Vietnam Memorial.
The list of outstanding female poets in our own time is so long that it
defies setting down. Probably Jorie Graham, winner of this year's
Pulitzer Prize, and Mary Oliver deserve mention.
One thing that merits consideration is the part played by the male-dominated
educational institutions in establishing critical standards. In the visual
arts as well as the literary world, qualities such as strength and vigor
continue to be the standards held up to students, while no mention is made of
delicacy or sensitivity or other values which seem more feminine. As long as
we live in a patriarchal society, women's work will probably continue to
suffer in comparison with that of men. These are certainly very great
generalizations that I am hesitant to make, and I'm sure some out there
will want to dispute them. However, I do not intend to participate in
any flames, so this is my final word on the subject.
--Therese Leigh
Jo Walton
In article <4oa6qi$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
black...@aol.com "BlackwellL" writes:
> lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes in Message-ID:
> <4o303c$h...@clarknet.clark.net>:
> >>Sappho
>
> >>Good.
>
> Actually, I've been thinking about retracting that one. Her poetry was,
> IIRC, largely ignored in her own time.
What?!!? You assuredly *don't* remember correctly. I refer you to any
book on Greek lyric poetry. It would have been hard for poetry ignored
in that period (when transmission of culture was still largely oral)
to have survived in any case.
Sappho was called "The Tenth Muse" in her own lifetime, she was
acclaimed, honoured and successful and her poetry was - fashionable doesn't
somehow seem the right word for -C.6, but in any case popular and remembered.
And what remains is excellent and well worth reading. Hildebrandt the
Bookburner (otherwise known by those who like him as Pope Gregory VII)
burned a lot of what survived until the C.12, but some new fragments have
been found this century in Egypt and I live in hope of more. (I'd really
like some more Simonides too...)
--
Jo J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
bweb...@freenet.vcu.edu
>the women still writing under ambiguous or masculine names (Andre
>Norton, C.J. Cherryh, Julian May, etc.) have all been writing for many years
>now, and changing an established byline is not common.
Indeed, Norton had her name changed legally to "Andre" several
years ago.
--
************************************************************************
* Bud Webster | What's that? MY opinion, *
* SFWA member RealSoonNow | someone else's? BWAA-hah- *
* "Writer in residence at MY house." | hah-hah-hah! *
************************************************************************
Liz Beecher
Try Angelica Kauffman who was one of the two female founders of the
English Royal Academy of Art (1700s) - She definately set standards.
Reynolds was besotted with her but she married an Italian painter and
predominately worked with Robert Adam
Liz Beecher
Janet Dowd
In article <4o7psk$f...@sue.cc.uregina.ca> ba...@BOREALIS.CS.UREGINA.CA (John Bayko) writes:
>In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
> Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)?
***And wasn't it Rosie Grier who set the standard for needlepoint
on the football field?
Hey, it's Monday, what did ya expect?
<grin>
J(ust) D(elightful)
Paul Clarke
In article <4o652u$f...@goodnews.voicenet.com>, toda...@voicenet.com (Todd)
writes:
>lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) wrote:
>
>>In article <Drx4z...@isltd.insignia.com>,
>pa...@broken.isltd.insignia.com
>>says...
>>>
>>>There's also George Elliot (aka Marian Evans), whose novel
>_Middlemarch_
>>>I have seen cited as the greatest English novel.
>
>>Um, no, that was Mary Ann Evans. Marian Evans is my oldest sister's
>maiden
>>name. Entirely different person.
>
>>I think she spelled Eliot with one L, rather than two, but I'm not at all
>>>sure.
>
>
> Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
> Pedantry alert! Look out, I'm going to wax pedantic!
>
>
> It's a minor point, but actually:
> Miss Evans started life as Mary Ann Evans.
> Some time in young adulthood she started signing her name
>"Marian".
Thanks. I had a feeling that I'd seen both versions - now I know why.
> And yes, she spelled it "Eliot", with only one "L".
>
Oh well, I suppose that one's a fair cop :-).
Jo Walton
> From: THERESE LEIGH <SL...@cc.usu.edu>
Yet, we have seen in the preservation of the literary
> works of Greece and Rome a bias against women. Sappho's works survive
> today only in scant fragments.
This is true, and it is because of a bias, though a medieval one, not a
classical one. Generally with the ancient world what we have left is only
the best.
Clodia Metulli, the mistress of Catullus,
> wrote poetry thatcaused him to compare her with Sappho so much that he gave
> her the name Lesbia. Yet, none of her works survive.
I like Clodia so much I have named my cat after her - but why call her
Clodia Metulli? Because she was at one point married to Metellus? But that
wasn't the Roman convention with names of married women. Her name was
Clodia Pulchra - that isn't a nickname, that's a family name. If anyone
wants to know more about her read Cicero's letters, generally collected and
translated in uninspiring order as _Letters To His Friends_ and _Letters
To Atticus_ - they're highly readable and lots of fun.
THERESE LEIGH
Has anyone yet mentioned the importance of two women anthropologists--Ruth
Benedict and Margaret Mead? These two were students of Franz Boas, who
rejected concepts of cultural evolution and that race determines culture and
ability to learn (see Edward Burnett Tylor, *Primitive Culture* and Lewis Henry
Morgan, *Ancient Society*). By contrast, followers of Boas adopted the
concepts of diffusion of ideas, customs, art, religious practices, and
other traits from the peoples of one geographic region to another. Benedict and
Mead also emphasized the importance of psychology and worldview.
Benedict's *Patterns of Culture* remains one of the most important and widely
read American anthropological works. She states that ways of life are
integrated wholes.
Mead's groundbreaking work *Coming of Age in Samoa* is based on her own
fieldwork there. Her studies in adolescent development and behavior stressed
the importance of child-nurturing practices on development of the personality
and values.
Regardless of whether today you think these works contain stereotypical
generalizations about cultural patterns and oversimplifications of behavioral
varieties, their importance in the development of the field of anthropology
cannot be denied. (Research based on Richley H. Crapo, *Cultural
Anthropology* (1990).
--Therese Leigh
Mark Rosenfelder
>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
>hear that as well.
I don't think anybody's yet mentioned Lady Murasaki, whose _Tale of Genji_
is often described as the world's first novel.
Jerry K. Bush
Phil <meta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and Connie Willis has four Nebulas under her belt vs. two in case of
>> Ellison. (But Ellison has won six Hugos, two more than Willis.)
>Waitaminnit... I'm not completely sure, but didn't Connie Willis write a short
>story called "At the Rialto"? Published, oh, maybe ten years or so ago in _Omni_
>magazine? I liked that story so much that I clipped it out of the magazine and
>saved it... and I never do that... and I think I still have it somewhere...
>Of course, I read this was when I was young and impressionable and before I went to
>college and took ACTUAL subatomic physics classes... which, of course, included
>discussions of Schroedinger's cat far, FAR less often than, say, requiring us to
>solve three-variable integrals (or not, in my case). A big regret of mine is that
>a class entitled (approximately) "The Philosophy of Physics" was never offered at a
>time/semester when I could take it.
>:P
yep, that's the same Connie Willis. "At the Rialto" and other
excellent stories of hers can be found in her collection "Impossible
Things." And she had an article on humor writing in a recent Writer's
Digest. Read it at the library, so I can't remember if it was May or
June. One of those, anyway. I recommend anything written by Ms.
Willis. A fine writer and human being.
Daren
Matt Austern
> What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
> debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
> maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
> not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
> through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
> response versus my limited one to his over generalization.
Dunno that it's really possible to argue with someone like that,
actually. For every example you come up with, after all, he can
always come up with some reason or another for why she doesn't count.
It's easy to win a game like this if you get to make up the rules as
you go along.
Joanna Russ discusses this in her book How to Suppress Women's
Writing. I'd take a look at it if I were you: trying to win a game
like this is less interesting than pointing out the ways that the
game is rigged.
D.Jean Cooper
Mark Rosenfelder wrote:
>
> In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
> Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
> >debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
> >maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
> >not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
> >through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
> >hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
> >hear that as well.
>
> I don't think anybody's yet mentioned Lady Murasaki, whose _Tale of Genji_
> is often described as the world's first novel.
Maybe my brain's gotten fuzzy, but what about Madame Curie? She and her
husband(I think) did work on radiation.
D.Jean Cooper
dco...@inav.net
Sig? What sig? Aaaagh! Catch it quick before it escapes onto the Net!
A.Jante
mark...@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder) wrote:
>In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
>Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
>I don't think anybody's yet mentioned Lady Murasaki, whose _Tale of Genji_
>is often described as the world's first novel.
I've read an excerpt (2 chapters or so) from this and really liked
it, but haven't had much luck finding the complete work. Any suggestions
on where to look?
Thanks,
Alyn
David DeGraff
In article <4oik52$h...@netsrv2.spss.com>, mark...@spss.com (Mark
Rosenfelder) wrote:
> In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>,
> Anthony Dauer <jack...@erols.com> wrote:
> >What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
> >debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
> >maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc.
> I don't think anybody's yet mentioned Lady Murasaki, whose _Tale of Genji_
> is often described as the world's first novel.
And what about Mary Shelley? You could argue that Frankenstein was
the first Scienc Fiction Novel. Certainly on e of the best known early
Gothic/Horror novels
--
David DeGraff WARNING!
Physical Sciences Nature abhors an atmosphere
Alfred University Check your suit seals
Gravity Girl
A contemporary entry in theatre arts: Emily Mann
She was the first woman to direct on the mainstage of the Guthrie, a
major regional theatre in Minneapolis.
In addition, she has created a
kind of documentary playwriting based on transcribing and manipulating
words that were ALL spoken by her real subjects (she adds no fiction or
made up dialogue at all). Her plays have been seen on Broadway, and her
short play, STILL LIFE, uses a simultaneous monologue format that was not
exactly innovative (Chekhov used it...) but had not been used very
much... and probably not at all in American Drama.
Her play EXECUTION OF JUSTICE earned several Obies.
She is now the Artistic Director of the McCarter Theatre in New
Jersey, where she led the company to winning a Tony Award for outstanding
regional theatre.
She certainly set a standard for me, but I believe her impact goes way
beyond fans like me.
Arthur Wohlwill (U55...@uic.edu) wrote:
: In article <31a6ae0f...@news.direct.ca> rbeh...@direct.ca writes:
: >Subject: Re: Women in Art
: >>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
: >>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
: >>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
: >>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
: >>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
: >>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
: >>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
: >>hear that as well.
: Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Janis Joplin, numerous Opera singers
: Grandma Moses
: Arthur Wohlwill Adwo...@UIC.EDU
: --
: bob storti
: University of Illinois at Chicago
: E-Mail: rvst...@uic.edu
Suz...@indirect.com
sh...@loc.gov (Stephanie A. Hall) wrote:
>Even if women were among the founders of a
>movement and recognized by their peers, they often were shut out because
>of the fear that women's participation would make the new movement seem
>trivial. Women artists (and scholars etc) were seen as dilitantes from
>the upper classes who "dabbled" and were not to be taken seriuosly.
For a very interesting treatment of the theory that women were shut
out of areas of artistic or intellectual (or for that matter business)
endeavor in the 19th century because men were already choking on
competition with eachother and found this a way to avoid having to
compete with a good half of the human race, see IDOLS OF PERVERSITY by
Bram Dykstra, a very detailed and provocative book on just this
subject.
>This is actually an important issue in this thread. Many of the women
>who did set standards in the arts (as well as other fields) did so at great
>odds.
And many may well have done so and then been shoved into the
background and forgotten, ie, suppressed, so that we will never know
their names (there are several books out now about women inventors
whose ideas were ignored, stolen, or suppressed, so that men have been
given the credit for many examples of women's ingenuity). It is a
history of how the human race has systematically impoverished itself,
very depressing, and of course still in full spate despite modern
challenges and changes, which have only begun to make a dent, and then
only in the case (for the most part) of middle class Western women,
not most women worldwide by any means.
I believe it is British SF author Brian Aldiss who first asserted in
print that Mary Shelley is the "mother" of science fiction.
SMCharnas
Suz...@indirect.com
Patrick O'Connell <pa...@nmia.com> wrote:
>Stephanie A. Hall wrote:
>> Other Women artists who "set standards" --..
>> Painting:
>>
>> Mary Cassatt (American Painter. She was the only woman accepted among the
>> elite group of French impressionists [check an encyclopedia on that. I've
>> forgetten the correct title of the group]. Her special subject was
>> mother and child. I'd expect that any artist today depicting mother and
>> child in _any_ medium would study Mary Cassatt's work.)
>>
>I think Georgia O'Keefe ought to be added in here. Amazing paintings,
>in my pesonal opinion. Standard setter? Probably broke the mold.
Martha Grahame, modern dance.
SMCharnas
Suz...@indirect.com
sh...@loc.gov (Stephanie A. Hall) wrote:
>Oh, please add Louise Nevelson and Georgia O'Keefe to the list of great 20th
>century artists--and Maya Linn--creator of the Vietnam Memorial.
How about Grandma Moses? She certainly set the standard in America
for the style of art known as modern "primitive."
And of course there are whole areas of art which are not recognized as
such simply because they are practiced primarily by women, who
naturally have set the standards therein: the one that comes to mind
is quitl-making.
SMCharnas
Gwen Byrd
What a dolt this "Gentleman Friend" must be! Surely he's heard of :
Science: Marie Curie
Fashion: Coco Chanel
Literature: BOTH Bronte sisters, George Sands, Louisa Mae Alcott, Emily
Dickenson.
In our own Sci Fi Literature: CJ Cheryhh, Elizabeth Moon, Anne McAffrey
Actresses: Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley MacLaine (don't laugh, I really like
her), Audrey Hepburn, Jodie Foster, Barbara Streisand
And the list goes on and on.
Gwen Byrd
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
>For a very interesting treatment of the theory that women were shut
>out of areas of artistic or intellectual (or for that matter business)
>endeavor in the 19th century because men were already choking on
>competition with eachother and found this a way to avoid having to
>compete with a good half of the human race, see IDOLS OF PERVERSITY by
>Bram Dykstra, a very detailed and provocative book on just this
>subject.
To say nothing of Joanna Russ's HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S WRITING, one of the
most overwhelmingly well-documented and convincing works about this matter
that I have ever read.
Or has that been mentioned already in this thread? Is that Suzy McKee Charnas
I'm following up to? Hello there!
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com
senior editor, manager of science fiction, Tor Books
Kristi
On 1 Jun 1996 07:54:25 -0400, gwen...@aol.com (Gwen Byrd) wrote:
>What a dolt this "Gentleman Friend" must be! Surely he's heard of :
>Science: Marie Curie
>Fashion: Coco Chanel
>Literature: BOTH Bronte sisters,
Err... Which of the three are you not including?
>Gwen Byrd
---
Kristi Thompson.
email: 3k...@qlink.queensu.ca
http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3kat6/
Harold Arnold
toda...@voicenet.com (Todd) wrote:
> Oh, by the way, if we're still looking for female standard-setters in
>the arts, how about Mary Cassatt? One of the great late 19th-century
>painters. And how about Clara Wieck Schumann as a composer? And what
>about the writer Sigrid Undset, who won the Nobel Prize for her
>three-volume novel of medieval Norway, *Kristin Lavransdatter*?
I would certainly second the nomination of Mary Cassatt as a standard
setter in the arts. This American woman artist living in Paris in
the post Civil War era is generally credited with laying the
foundation for the impressionist movement in North America.
Harold
Steve Law
aus...@tristan.mti.sgi.com (Matt Austern) wrote:
>In article <1996May22.1...@nosc.mil> jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) writes:
>> What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
>> debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>> maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
>> not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>> through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>> response versus my limited one to his over generalization.
Are you talking about contemporary art/lit/poetry, or the "literary
canon?" - ie traditional literature? The arguments against accepting
the literary canon as true refelctions of literary standards are many,
as most critics have been male, and historically literature was viewed
as the province of the male - try reading Gilbert & Gubar's "The
Madwoman in the Attic" for why this might have been so.
What do you call a standard? Who decides what is "good" or "bad"
art/lit. etc? In literature the lists of female novelists are endless
- Jane Austen (Hollywood has Jane Austen fever), George Eliot
(Mary-Anne Evans), Charlotte & Emily Bronte - all were poets as well
as novelists. When Charlotte Bronte sent her poetry to the English
poet laureate, Robert Southey, he told her to stick to the kitchen, as
women weren't meant to be writers. You can find a similar prejudice in
English poetry with regard to class - it was considered, for example,
that only men born into the true class of "gentleman" could write
poetry, and many claimed they could spot the "bad breeding" of Keats
in his poetry - not a true English gentleman. It sounds to me as
though you are arguing with someone who suffers from blind prejudice
and isn't worth arguing with in terms of throwing examples at - just
tell him he simply hasn't read enough and obvioulsy doesn't understand
literature.
Suz...@indirect.com
p...@tor.com (Patrick Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>To say nothing of Joanna Russ's HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S WRITING, one of the
>most overwhelmingly well-documented and convincing works about this matter
>that I have ever read.
>Or has that been mentioned already in this thread? Is that Suzy McKee Charnas
>I'm following up to? Hello there!
Yes, heidy, Patrick! And that essay of Joanna's plus lots more have
just been collected in a book out of Indiana U. Press, I think --
can't lay hands on it right now, anybody have the exact title? Well
worth reading.
Suzy Charnas
R. Byers
The Russ collection from Indiana U. Press is called _To Write Like
a Woman_. Great stuff.
Randy Byers
John Boston
In article <4p0iu2$p...@globe.indirect.com>, Suz...@indirect.com writes:
> p...@tor.com (Patrick Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
> >To say nothing of Joanna Russ's HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S WRITING, one of the
> >most overwhelmingly well-documented and convincing works about this matter
> >that I have ever read.
>
> >Or has that been mentioned already in this thread? Is that Suzy McKee Charnas
> >I'm following up to? Hello there!
>
> Yes, heidy, Patrick! And that essay of Joanna's plus lots more have
> just been collected in a book out of Indiana U. Press, I think --
> can't lay hands on it right now, anybody have the exact title? Well
> worth reading.
>
TO WRITE LIKE A WOMAN: ESSAYS IN FEMINISM AND SCIENCE FICTION,
Indiana University Press, 1995, ISBN 0-253-20983-8, $13.95 in trade pb.
John Boston
nonlinear creations
>jack...@erols.com (Anthony Dauer) wrote:
>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
>>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>>maintains that *no* women have set standards in art, science, etc. This is
>>not a lame attempt at getting my homework done for me. I've been looking
>>through my textbooks, etc., but I would like to see an international
>>response versus my limited one to his over generalization. On the other
>>hand, if you agree with him and can actually argue your case I would like to
>>hear that as well.
>On a Canadian basis, Emily Carr (widely recognized (up here?) painter)
>and Margaret Laurence, one of the foremost Canadian authors (died).
I have to agree. Laurence novel "The Diviners" is the closest thing there is to THE GREAT
CANADIAN NOVEL. It manages to deal with all of our national issues (language, native and métis rights, identity)
in a way that is both compelling and deeply personal.
Carr was a tremendously gifted painter. For anyone interested in her work, the National Gallery of Canada recently received
some wonderful works by Carr as a gift from the late Saidie Bronfman. They can be seen at:
http://national.gallery.ca
or
http://musee.beaux-arts.ca
and are well worth the time to visit.
Cheers,
Randy
Todd
JEME...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (J Evans) wrote:
>In article <4o652u$f...@goodnews.voicenet.com> toda...@voicenet.com (Todd) writes:
>>about the writer Sigrid Undset, who won the Nobel Prize for her
>>three-volume novel of medieval Norway, *Kristin Lavransdatter*?
>I'm not familiar with Sigrid Undset, and she may indeed by a great artist,
>but I'm very dubious about using a Nobel Prize (particularly in literature)
>as evidence for greatness: it is instructive to compare a list of selected
>Nobel laureates and a list of great writers who did not win.
You're right to urge caution. After all, such acclaimed writers as
Virginia Woolf, H.G. Wells, and Joseph Conrad were not awarded Nobel
Prizes. On the other hand, such unfamiliar names as Halldor K.
Laxness, Salvatore Quasimodo, and Frans Eemil Sillanpaa are forever
linked with a particular year's Prize for Literature.
But I think we shouldn't go too far. I used to laugh at the list of
recipients too. One of the funnier recipients was Henryk Sienkiewicz,
who won it in 1905. Sienkiewicz, of course, is best known as the
author of the novel *Quo Vadis?*, which we all know as one of the most
famous potboilers about Christians and pagans in Imperial Rome ever --
a mix of sickly piety and garish hedonism. Sienkiewicz, of course,
was also Polish. And as we all know, the Poles, to put it kindly,
have not exactly produced a national literature to equal that of the
French, or even the Russians.
Then a few years ago, I picked up a new translation of
another one of Sienkiewicz's novels -- *With Fire and Sword*. A novel
about a war between 17th-century Poles and Ukrainians. Boy, that
sounds like a lot of fun, huh?
Well, it was. A lot of fun. It's kind of a cross between Dumas's
*Three Musketeers* and a psychological novel. It's got a great love
triangle for our stalwart hero to get mixed up in, and three hero's
sidekicks who make Athos, Porthos, and Aramis almost look pallid.
Action! Romance! Low comedy! Ethical dilemmas! I couldn't believe
that so great a book had been around for a century, and yet so few
people knew about it.
I had to read its two sequels. Fortunately, the same translator
soon brought out his versions of those too -- *The Deluge* and *Fire
on the Steppe*. The whole trilogy is 3,000+ pages of epic. One of
the best scenes comes at the very end of the last book. When the
priest drums on the pulpit -- well, I won't spoil it for you.
The point is, what we all *knew* -- was wrong. Sienkiewicz
really *was* a great writer. He got the Nobel in 1905; Mark Twain
never got a Nobel. Yes, Twain *should* have gotten a Nobel. But
Sienkiewicz was just as deserving as Twain. Poles have been saying
for a hundred years that Sienkiewicz was a writer of the first rank.
They were generally smiled at for their "charming excesses of national
pride". But they were right. And the Nobel committee was right to
give him a prize. And just maybe when Poles say that Polish
literature has produced just as many great works as Russian
literature, we should not immediately dismiss that as fatuous
nationalist boasting.
So when we say to ourselves, "Why did the Nobel
committee give *this* writer the Literature Prize? Surely if the man
were really a great writer I would have heard of him before!" let us
remember Sienkiewicz, and remember that we don't know everything.
Now, after all that, I must confess that I have never read
anything by Sigrid Undset. So take this for what it's worth.
Incidentally, the Sienkiewicz trilogy I discussed was
translated by W.S. Kuniczak (Kuniczak was born in Poland, and escaped
to this country about half a century ago). Don't accept any other
translation. All the older translations are hamhanded. (Remember, a
century ago, as A.E. Housman memorably groused, we English-speakers
didn't even translate classical Greek very well.) Only this new
translation is really worthy. (Or, at any rate, so say
Polish-speakers).
>Jon
>http://sunee.uwaterloo.ca/~jemevans
>"Technically, Horselover Fat had become a Buddha. It did not seem like a
> good idea to tell him this. After all, if you are a Buddha you should
> be able to figure it out for yourself." - Philip K. Dick, VALIS
Todd
"I'm done for -- and so are my fleas!"
-- Pan Zagloba in *With Fire and Sword*
THERESE LEIGH
In article <4pa449$c...@goodnews.voicenet.com>, toda...@voicenet.com (Todd) writes:
> JEME...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (J Evans) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o652u$f...@goodnews.voicenet.com> toda...@voicenet.com (Todd) writes:
>
>>>about the writer Sigrid Undset, who won the Nobel Prize for her
>>>three-volume novel of medieval Norway, *Kristin Lavransdatter*?
>
>
>>I'm not familiar with Sigrid Undset, and she may indeed by a great artist,
>>but I'm very dubious about using a Nobel Prize (particularly in literature)
>>as evidence for greatness: it is instructive to compare a list of selected
>>Nobel laureates and a list of great writers who did not win.
Well, since nobody else is coming to the defense of Sigrid Undset, I guess I
will have to speak out. *Kristin Lavransdatter* is an absolutely magnificent
work--one that I read for pleasure rather than as a contribution to my
education. When I finished the trilogy, I was very sorry it had ended--the
kind of feeling you have when finishing books like *War and Peace*, *The
Brothers Karamazov*, *Doctor Zhivago*. So, I put it aside, knowing I would
want to read it again some day. Enough years have passed that this may be the
year to do it. It is a great summer read! I highly recommend it. For those
interested in medieval history, it also vividly recreates that period.
--Therese
(not soliciting any flames from anyone who wants to argue about the "U" word.
Ray Radlein
References:
<1996May22.1...@nosc.mil>
<4o2jab$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4o7462$t...@rs7.loc.gov>
<31A7C9...@nmia.com>
In a message of (Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:41), Suz...@indirect.com wrote:
Twyla Tharp, Even-More-Modern Dance.
Laurie Anderson, Performance Art.
Karen Finlay, Political Contoversy. :-)
Madonna, Self-Promotion :-)
- Ray R.
*********************************************************************
I have heard the monsters singing, each to each. - Lynda Barry
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
ra...@neonate.org
*********************************************************************
R...@learnlink.emory.edu
R...@learnlink.emory.edu
William Wylde
On Sat, 18 May 1996 19:20:12, U55...@uic.edu (Arthur Wohlwill) wrote:
>In article <31a6ae0f...@news.direct.ca> rbeh...@direct.ca writes:
>
>>Subject: Re: Women in Art
>
>
>>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
>>>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
One that immediately comes to mind is Clara Shumann, wife of the
better-known male composer. She was a genius in her own right, and
had performed her composistions all over europe until she met and
married her husband...
She didn't quit writing then, but she did quit performance. She made
some quite amazing music.
K C Moore
In article <31bed8ef...@news.atl.mindspring.com>
wyl...@mail1.is.net "William Wylde" writes:
> On Sat, 18 May 1996 19:20:12, U55...@uic.edu (Arthur Wohlwill) wrote:
>
> >In article <31a6ae0f...@news.direct.ca> rbeh...@direct.ca writes:
> >
> >>Subject: Re: Women in Art
> >
> >
> >>>What women have set standards in Art (poetry, prose, painting, etc.)? I'm
> >>>debating a gentleman (and I do use the term loosely) on a listserv who
>
> One that immediately comes to mind is Clara Shumann, wife of the
> better-known male composer. She was a genius in her own right, and
> had performed her composistions all over europe until she met and
> married her husband...
There are different views on this. One of my lecturers at the Music
Department of Reading University specialises in women composers. She
regards Clara Schumann, nee Wieck, as a very modest talent as a
composer. She ranks Fanny Mendelssohn, OTOH, alongside her more famous
brother. Clara Schumann was, and remained, a highly regarded performer.
> She didn't quit writing then, but she did quit performance. She made
> some quite amazing music.
The books say that she continued to perform, between pregnancies, and
after Robert's confinement in an asylum her playing and teaching became
the sole source of income for their large family. The Grove Concise
Dictionary of Music says that she gave up composition in 1854, the year
of Robert's confinement.
--
Ken Moore
k...@hpsl.demon.co.uk