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I hated hated hated hated hated this dust jacket blurb
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William December Starr
May 9, 2016, 10:57:14 AM5/9/16
to
Recently at MITSFS I processed a new-to-us copy of LIFELODE, a 2011
hardcover by Jo Walton. I started reading the dust-jacket blurb to
see what it was about. Here it is, in its entirety:
You probably live in a place not unlike Marakanda, or
perhaps you could get there on horseback in a week or
so. Marakanda is a university town, and its because of
the diligence of the folk history curators at the
Marakanda Academie that you are holding this book in your
hands. For the Academie is one of only three places in
the world which keep the original account of the events
related in this story.
Of course the story is not *about* Marakanda, it's about
Applekirk, a ways to the east from Marakanda. If it were
about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
dragons were injured during the telling of this
story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
is practiced in everyday life. Well, to be honest no
dragons were injured in Applekirk either, for the simple
fact that there are no dragons in Applekirk. But farther
east that Applekirk there are some very peculiar beings
and who knows, they might be a little like dragons.
But this story is not about those places further east
than Applekirk -- it is about Applekirk, the families of
Applekirk Manor, a visiting Marakandan scholar seeking
knowledge about the ancient Marisians who once lived in
Applekirk, and one other, someone who left Applekirk
years earlier after the Plague, went far east, and came
back to tell about it.
So be prepared for a story quite outside the realm of
Marakandan experience. You never know but that you might
find yourself on a caravan one day going east for an
adventure of your own.
Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will. Kill. You."
been so appropriate.
(I later learned that the secret was that unlike most books this one
was never intended for retail, where its design and blurbs would have
to, you know, make people want to *buy* it rather than putting it
back on the shelf with gritted teeth and dangerously elevated blood
pressure. Rather, it was the Boskone 46 Guest of Honor book,
published by the NESFA Press and selling (or not) solely on the basis
of the author's identity and/or "I always buy the GoH book.")
-- wds
hardcover by Jo Walton. I started reading the dust-jacket blurb to
see what it was about. Here it is, in its entirety:
You probably live in a place not unlike Marakanda, or
perhaps you could get there on horseback in a week or
so. Marakanda is a university town, and its because of
the diligence of the folk history curators at the
Marakanda Academie that you are holding this book in your
hands. For the Academie is one of only three places in
the world which keep the original account of the events
related in this story.
Of course the story is not *about* Marakanda, it's about
Applekirk, a ways to the east from Marakanda. If it were
about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
dragons were injured during the telling of this
story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
is practiced in everyday life. Well, to be honest no
dragons were injured in Applekirk either, for the simple
fact that there are no dragons in Applekirk. But farther
east that Applekirk there are some very peculiar beings
and who knows, they might be a little like dragons.
But this story is not about those places further east
than Applekirk -- it is about Applekirk, the families of
Applekirk Manor, a visiting Marakandan scholar seeking
knowledge about the ancient Marisians who once lived in
Applekirk, and one other, someone who left Applekirk
years earlier after the Plague, went far east, and came
back to tell about it.
So be prepared for a story quite outside the realm of
Marakandan experience. You never know but that you might
find yourself on a caravan one day going east for an
adventure of your own.
Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will. Kill. You."
been so appropriate.
(I later learned that the secret was that unlike most books this one
was never intended for retail, where its design and blurbs would have
to, you know, make people want to *buy* it rather than putting it
back on the shelf with gritted teeth and dangerously elevated blood
pressure. Rather, it was the Boskone 46 Guest of Honor book,
published by the NESFA Press and selling (or not) solely on the basis
of the author's identity and/or "I always buy the GoH book.")
-- wds
Robert Carnegie
May 9, 2016, 12:15:35 PM5/9/16
to
a publisher expects to be able to sell a book by a
celebrated author without particularly telling you
anything /about/ the story, such as that it's about
a university lecturer who overcomes impotence by
having an affair with one or more of his students,
or a police officer who doesn't follow the rule book
investigating a series of imaginative murders.
(More often the former than the latter.)
I do wonder if your quote is (a) what the whole book
is like, and (b) technically, page one, and it carries
on from there. In which case, I would not mind (b)
as much as (a).
I'm also thinking about _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to
the Galaxy_ - the in-story "unevenly edited" rough
encyclopedia - which (after a happier dust-jacket
inscription, or, if not happier, more to the point),
if you press Play, goes, "Space is big. Really big.
You just won't believe how vastly, hugely,
mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think
it's a long way down the road to the chemist..."
and takes quite a while to settle down to imparting
any useful information. But who reads an encyclopedia
anyway...
Brian M. Scott
May 9, 2016, 5:15:06 PM5/9/16
to
On 9 May 2016 10:57:12 -0400, William December Starr
<wds...@panix.com> wrote
in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
I’m not surprised that you don’t like it, but I find it
utterly delightful.
[...]
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
<wds...@panix.com> wrote
in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
utterly delightful.
[...]
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
David Goldfarb
May 9, 2016, 7:00:03 PM5/9/16
to
Although I have read _Lifelode_ several times, I have to admit that
I've never actually read the dust jacket blurb. It's a bit overly
cutesy, and doesn't do much to give an idea what the book is about.
I have to admit also that my favorite part of it is the dedication page.
Normally that would be damning with faint praise, but in this particular
case it's that I love the dedication page with a burning passion.
--
David Goldfarb |"The only thing better than messing with somebody's
goldf...@gmail.com | sense of reality is messing with a whole LOTTA
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | people's sense of reality...."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski
I've never actually read the dust jacket blurb. It's a bit overly
cutesy, and doesn't do much to give an idea what the book is about.
I have to admit also that my favorite part of it is the dedication page.
Normally that would be damning with faint praise, but in this particular
case it's that I love the dedication page with a burning passion.
--
David Goldfarb |"The only thing better than messing with somebody's
goldf...@gmail.com | sense of reality is messing with a whole LOTTA
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | people's sense of reality...."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski
David Goldfarb
May 9, 2016, 7:15:04 PM5/9/16
to
In article <c853ad8e-75a0-41ca...@googlegroups.com>,
The book is set in a world where time passes at different rates in
different places. The further east you go, the more magic there is,
and the slower time passes. (Think about the stories of spending
a night in Elfland and coming home to find that a hundred years
have passed.) In the farthest west, there's so little magic that
people can't really sustain consciousness; in the farthest east
there's so much that people can't really sustain individual identity,
but merge into the collective archetypes called gods.
(If you're reminded of Vinge's Zones of Thought, you're not at all wrong.)
The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that there's
a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of the gods.
It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's narrated by a
woman who can see through time, so it's told in present tense and
out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS would find it
to his taste.
--
David Goldfarb |"Do you know what Freud said about dreams of flying?
goldf...@gmail.com | It means you're really dreaming about having sex."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Indeed. Tell me, then, what does it mean when
| you dream about having sex?" -- _Sandman_ #15
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>I do wonder if your quote is (a) what the whole book
>is like, and (b) technically, page one, and it carries
>on from there. In which case, I would not mind (b)
>as much as (a).
No to both.
>I do wonder if your quote is (a) what the whole book
>is like, and (b) technically, page one, and it carries
>on from there. In which case, I would not mind (b)
>as much as (a).
The book is set in a world where time passes at different rates in
different places. The further east you go, the more magic there is,
and the slower time passes. (Think about the stories of spending
a night in Elfland and coming home to find that a hundred years
have passed.) In the farthest west, there's so little magic that
people can't really sustain consciousness; in the farthest east
there's so much that people can't really sustain individual identity,
but merge into the collective archetypes called gods.
(If you're reminded of Vinge's Zones of Thought, you're not at all wrong.)
The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that there's
a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of the gods.
It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's narrated by a
woman who can see through time, so it's told in present tense and
out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS would find it
to his taste.
--
David Goldfarb |"Do you know what Freud said about dreams of flying?
goldf...@gmail.com | It means you're really dreaming about having sex."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Indeed. Tell me, then, what does it mean when
| you dream about having sex?" -- _Sandman_ #15
Sjouke Burry
May 9, 2016, 7:18:26 PM5/9/16
to
If you could find a real one.
A real one I would swallow hook/line and sinkers on the spot.
Steve Coltrin
May 9, 2016, 7:49:48 PM5/9/16
to
begin fnord
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
> with a burning passion
Hope it responds to antibiotics.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
> with a burning passion
Hope it responds to antibiotics.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
Kevrob
May 9, 2016, 8:29:57 PM5/9/16
to
On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 7:49:48 PM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>
> > with a burning passion
>
> Hope it responds to antibiotics.
Just soak it in some of that ol' Janx spirit.
> begin fnord
> gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>
> > with a burning passion
>
> Hope it responds to antibiotics.
Kevin R
Gene Wirchenko
May 9, 2016, 9:17:52 PM5/9/16
to
On Mon, 9 May 2016 17:15:19 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On 9 May 2016 10:57:12 -0400, William December Starr
><wds...@panix.com> wrote
>in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
[snip]
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On 9 May 2016 10:57:12 -0400, William December Starr
><wds...@panix.com> wrote
>in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will.
>> Kill. You." been so appropriate.
>I’m not surprised that you don’t like it, but I find it
>utterly delightful.
blurb way.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
William December Starr
May 9, 2016, 10:32:27 PM5/9/16
to
In article <o6xMK...@kithrup.com>,
more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
-- wds
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) said:
> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> would find it to his taste.
Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> would find it to his taste.
more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
-- wds
William December Starr
May 9, 2016, 10:35:01 PM5/9/16
to
In article <p0h24mhsr4kk.g...@40tude.net>,
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:
> <wds...@panix.com> wrote
HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET?, after all.
-- wds
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:
> <wds...@panix.com> wrote
>
>> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will.
>> Kill. You." been so appropriate.
>
> I'm not surprised that you don't like it, but I find it
> utterly delightful.
I knew there would be people who do. There are people who like
>> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will.
>> Kill. You." been so appropriate.
>
> I'm not surprised that you don't like it, but I find it
> utterly delightful.
HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET?, after all.
-- wds
Dorothy J Heydt
May 9, 2016, 11:00:12 PM5/9/16
to
In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger Zelazny *barely* got away
with it in _Doorways in the Sand,_ but I would have been a lot
happier with it if he had told it straight and not kept going
backwards and forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger Zelazny *barely* got away
with it in _Doorways in the Sand,_ but I would have been a lot
happier with it if he had told it straight and not kept going
backwards and forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Moriarty
May 9, 2016, 11:11:57 PM5/9/16
to
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 1:00:12 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <o6xMK...@kithrup.com>,
> >gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) said:
> >
> >> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> >> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> >> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> >> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> >> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> >> would find it to his taste.
> >
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
> >more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
> >together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
> >playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
> those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
> it.
Iain M. Banks is the master at getting away with it. Aside from the obvious example in "Use of Weapons" he does it really well in "Excession" too.
> In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <o6xMK...@kithrup.com>,
> >gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) said:
> >
> >> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> >> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> >> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> >> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> >> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> >> would find it to his taste.
> >
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
> >more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
> >together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
> >playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
> those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
> it.
-Moriarty
Quadibloc
May 9, 2016, 11:14:07 PM5/9/16
to
On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-6, William December Starr wrote:
I thought it got to the point rather quickly:
> If it were
> about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
> dragons were injured during the telling of this
> story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
> leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
> is practiced in everyday life.
Evidently, this is a humorous fantasy story, told by someone who really
dislikes the sort of people who live in places like San Francisco, and, unlike
J. R. R. Tolkien, is not afraid to let that fact obtrude in his storytelling.
Thus, I would only recommend it to people prepared to vote for Donald Trump,
or, at least, who find Rush Limbaugh entertaining.
It could be that this conclusion is massively unfair to the author, but with a
blurb like that, this is the sort of judgment he might expect.
John Savard
I thought it got to the point rather quickly:
> If it were
> about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
> dragons were injured during the telling of this
> story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
> leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
> is practiced in everyday life.
dislikes the sort of people who live in places like San Francisco, and, unlike
J. R. R. Tolkien, is not afraid to let that fact obtrude in his storytelling.
Thus, I would only recommend it to people prepared to vote for Donald Trump,
or, at least, who find Rush Limbaugh entertaining.
It could be that this conclusion is massively unfair to the author, but with a
blurb like that, this is the sort of judgment he might expect.
John Savard
Quadibloc
May 9, 2016, 11:16:04 PM5/9/16
to
On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 7:17:52 PM UTC-6, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> >On 9 May 2016 10:57:12 -0400, William December Starr
> ><wds...@panix.com> wrote
> >in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
> >rec.arts.sf.written:
> >On 9 May 2016 10:57:12 -0400, William December Starr
> ><wds...@panix.com> wrote
> >in<news:ngq8g8$1eq$1...@panix3.panix.com> in
> >rec.arts.sf.written:
> >> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will.
> >> Kill. You." been so appropriate.
> The Nine Deadly Words?
No, that's when you've stopped caring about what happens to the characters.
> >> Kill. You." been so appropriate.
> The Nine Deadly Words?
John Savard
Don Bruder
May 9, 2016, 11:40:43 PM5/9/16
to
In article <f36cfd25-d4a1-4749...@googlegroups.com>,
<looks around>
Ah... So THAT'S where that whooshing sound is coming from!
--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
Ah... So THAT'S where that whooshing sound is coming from!
--
Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
May 10, 2016, 12:25:44 AM5/10/16
to
In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
For some reason, present tense really grates on me, in order or not.
I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems pretentious to narrate your
life as it happens while it's not so bad to tell your story later in
the past tense when you know by then it really *was* an adventure..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems pretentious to narrate your
life as it happens while it's not so bad to tell your story later in
the past tense when you know by then it really *was* an adventure..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Goldfarb
May 10, 2016, 2:45:03 AM5/10/16
to
In article <o6xxI...@kithrup.com>,
--
David Goldfarb |"Bagels can be an enormous force for good or
goldf...@gmail.com | for evil. It is up to us to decide how we
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | will use them."
| -- Daniel M. Pinkwater
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
>>more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
>>together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
>>playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
>I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
>those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
>it. Rumer Godden could do it.
Rumer Godden is one of Jo's acknowledged influences in this case.
>In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
>>more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
>>together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
>>playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
>I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
>those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
>it. Rumer Godden could do it.
--
David Goldfarb |"Bagels can be an enormous force for good or
goldf...@gmail.com | for evil. It is up to us to decide how we
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | will use them."
| -- Daniel M. Pinkwater
David Goldfarb
May 10, 2016, 2:45:04 AM5/10/16
to
In article <58207a2f-abfa-453e...@googlegroups.com>,
>It could be that this conclusion is massively unfair to the author, but with a
>blurb like that, this is the sort of judgment he might expect.
It's not like she wrote the blurb herself.
--
David Goldfarb |"Newsgroups trimmed back to rec.arts.sf.written,
goldf...@gmail.com | in the hope of subverting society's traditional
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | values in a more focussed, netiquette-aware
| fashion." -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-6, William December Starr wrote:
>
>I thought it got to the point rather quickly:
>
>> If it were
>> about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
>> dragons were injured during the telling of this
>> story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
>> leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
>> is practiced in everyday life.
>
>Evidently, this is a humorous fantasy story, told by someone who really
>dislikes the sort of people who live in places like San Francisco, and, unlike
>J. R. R. Tolkien, is not afraid to let that fact obtrude in his storytelling.
Completely wrong on all counts. (Well, except that it's a fantasy story.)
>On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-6, William December Starr wrote:
>
>I thought it got to the point rather quickly:
>
>> If it were
>> about Marakanda there'd probably be a notice that no
>> dragons were injured during the telling of this
>> story. Marakanda is a regular place with regular people
>> leading regular lives, not a place where the art of yega
>> is practiced in everyday life.
>
>Evidently, this is a humorous fantasy story, told by someone who really
>dislikes the sort of people who live in places like San Francisco, and, unlike
>J. R. R. Tolkien, is not afraid to let that fact obtrude in his storytelling.
>It could be that this conclusion is massively unfair to the author, but with a
>blurb like that, this is the sort of judgment he might expect.
--
David Goldfarb |"Newsgroups trimmed back to rec.arts.sf.written,
goldf...@gmail.com | in the hope of subverting society's traditional
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | values in a more focussed, netiquette-aware
| fashion." -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
David Goldfarb
May 10, 2016, 2:45:04 AM5/10/16
to
compared to something like _Use of Weapons_ it's positively straightforward.
You could try reading the first thirty pages or so. That would give
you a fairly good idea of whether you should continue.
Juho Julkunen
May 10, 2016, 8:05:48 AM5/10/16
to
In article <o6y7x...@kithrup.com>, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu says...
and meeting in the middle.
--
Juho Julkunen
>
> In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <o6xMK...@kithrup.com>,
> >gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) said:
> >
> >> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> >> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> >> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> >> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> >> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> >> would find it to his taste.
> >
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
> >more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
> >together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
> >playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
> Certainly it does. Actually the narrative isn't *that* nonlinear;
> compared to something like _Use of Weapons_ it's positively straightforward.
> You could try reading the first thirty pages or so. That would give
> you a fairly good idea of whether you should continue.
_Use of Weapons_ was pretty orderly, was it not? Starting at both ends
> In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <o6xMK...@kithrup.com>,
> >gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) said:
> >
> >> The story takes place in somewhere fairly far east, so that
> >> there's a fair amount of magic about, but it isn't the realms of
> >> the gods. It largely involves a refugee from those realms. It's
> >> narrated by a woman who can see through time, so it's told in
> >> present tense and out of order. For this reason I don't think WDS
> >> would find it to his taste.
> >
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
> >more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
> >together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
> >playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>
> Certainly it does. Actually the narrative isn't *that* nonlinear;
> compared to something like _Use of Weapons_ it's positively straightforward.
> You could try reading the first thirty pages or so. That would give
> you a fairly good idea of whether you should continue.
and meeting in the middle.
--
Juho Julkunen
Brian M. Scott
May 10, 2016, 9:23:55 AM5/10/16
to
On Tue, 10 May 2016 02:56:31 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o6xxI...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as
> one of those things that you can get away with if you
> can get away with it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger
> Zelazny *barely* got away with it in _Doorways in the
> Sand,_ but I would have been a lot happier with it if he
> had told it straight and not kept going backwards and
> forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
But he got away with it splendidly in _Lord of Light_.
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o6xxI...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as
> one of those things that you can get away with if you
> can get away with it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger
> Zelazny *barely* got away with it in _Doorways in the
> Sand,_ but I would have been a lot happier with it if he
> had told it straight and not kept going backwards and
> forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 9:30:04 AM5/10/16
to
In article <o6y7q...@kithrup.com>,
in the general chaos of life-with-too-much-kipple. Must find a
nice cheap copy on Amazon.
(Note to anybody interested in reading it: get the hardback, not
the paperback, which has been CUT.)
David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <o6xxI...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
>>>more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
>>>together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
>>>playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>>
>>I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
>>those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
>>it. Rumer Godden could do it.
>
>Rumer Godden is one of Jo's acknowledged influences in this case.
Yup. And I seem to have lost my copy of _In This House of Brede_
>In article <o6xxI...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), and I'm
>>>more likely to view "story told out of order" as a puzzle to put
>>>together than a horror from beyond infinity. Provided the author is
>>>playing fair and it all _does_ fit together.
>>
>>I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as one of
>>those things that you can get away with if you can get away with
>>it. Rumer Godden could do it.
>
>Rumer Godden is one of Jo's acknowledged influences in this case.
in the general chaos of life-with-too-much-kipple. Must find a
nice cheap copy on Amazon.
(Note to anybody interested in reading it: get the hardback, not
the paperback, which has been CUT.)
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 9:30:05 AM5/10/16
to
In article <dpd663...@mid.individual.net>,
The same could be said of anything told in the first person,
unless at the end you find out that the person is dead and the
Witch of En-dor is calling him/her up to tell the tale.
unless at the end you find out that the person is dead and the
Witch of En-dor is calling him/her up to tell the tale.
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 9:30:05 AM5/10/16
to
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 10:00:05 AM5/10/16
to
In article <ht2i4fm60z5p.1...@40tude.net>,
about Hindu deities, or some variant thereof. Perhaps the
backwards-and-forwards technique works better when one is
covering a long stretch of time, rather than a couple of weeks?
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 May 2016 02:56:31 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o6xxI...@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as
>> one of those things that you can get away with if you
>> can get away with it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger
>> Zelazny *barely* got away with it in _Doorways in the
>> Sand,_ but I would have been a lot happier with it if he
>> had told it straight and not kept going backwards and
>> forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
>
>But he got away with it splendidly in _Lord of Light_.
>
Hm. It's been decades since I read that, but ISTR it was all
>On Tue, 10 May 2016 02:56:31 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o6xxI...@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> I tend to view messing about with internal chronology as
>> one of those things that you can get away with if you
>> can get away with it. Rumer Godden could do it. Roger
>> Zelazny *barely* got away with it in _Doorways in the
>> Sand,_ but I would have been a lot happier with it if he
>> had told it straight and not kept going backwards and
>> forwards to end every chapter with a cliffhanger.
>
>But he got away with it splendidly in _Lord of Light_.
>
about Hindu deities, or some variant thereof. Perhaps the
backwards-and-forwards technique works better when one is
covering a long stretch of time, rather than a couple of weeks?
Will in New Haven
May 10, 2016, 10:38:09 AM5/10/16
to
--
Will in Pompano Beach
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
May 10, 2016, 10:54:56 AM5/10/16
to
BE a humorless Trekfan? 'Cause I HATE HMFJtP, while I loved "The Final
Reflection". But I also loved Trek to Madworld, which was not devoid of
humor.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Jack Bohn
May 10, 2016, 11:17:05 AM5/10/16
to
Let's see -- Marakandites would tell us that no dragons were harmed in the telling of the story (if it were a story about Marakandar) yet there are no dragons in Applekirk, although even further east there are creatures described as "peculiar" for the benefit of us readers within a week's ride of Marakanda that might be dragons. It sounds like there are no dragons in Marakand, and the people there put on airs. Any missapprehensions I would not blame on the reader, but on the blurb writer. What I would do is check if this blurb were taken from a foreword in the book, then probably put it back on the shelf.
--
-Jack
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
May 10, 2016, 11:51:16 AM5/10/16
to
On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 05:25:44 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> For some reason, present tense really grates on me, in order or not.
> I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems pretentious to narrate your
> life as it happens while it's not so bad to tell your story later in
> the past tense when you know by then it really *was* an adventure..
I don't see it a lot. I think it may be used in books
> For some reason, present tense really grates on me, in order or not.
> I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems pretentious to narrate your
> life as it happens while it's not so bad to tell your story later in
> the past tense when you know by then it really *was* an adventure..
aimed for children and other less able readers - present
tense is simpler.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunning_fog_index>
estimates readability only from sentence length
(formerly clause length) and "complex" words.
I suppose that present tense favours separate
sentences over subordinate clauses.
Comics tend to be narrated in present tense,
but not always. Also, plays, and screenplays.
<http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters:_Novel>
is a book that I strongly remember being in present tense -
"based on the screenplay."
And I think /nearly/ all of Damon Runyon's "Broadway"
stories about gangsters and gamblers.
Brian M. Scott
May 10, 2016, 12:43:57 PM5/10/16
to
On Tue, 10 May 2016 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote
in<news:ea64dca8-c20a-4c88...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 05:25:44 UTC+1, Ted Nolan
> <tednolan> wrote:
>> For some reason, present tense really grates on me, in
>> order or not. I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems
>> pretentious to narrate your life as it happens while
>> it's not so bad to tell your story later in the past
>> tense when you know by then it really *was* an
>> adventure..
> I don't see it a lot. I think it may be used in books
> aimed for children and other less able readers -
No. It’s very common in current sf.
> present tense is simpler.
Except that present tense narration actually uses other
tenses as well, just as past tense narration uses multiple
tenses.
[...]
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote
in<news:ea64dca8-c20a-4c88...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 05:25:44 UTC+1, Ted Nolan
> <tednolan> wrote:
>> For some reason, present tense really grates on me, in
>> order or not. I'm not sure why, maybe because it seems
>> pretentious to narrate your life as it happens while
>> it's not so bad to tell your story later in the past
>> tense when you know by then it really *was* an
>> adventure..
> I don't see it a lot. I think it may be used in books
> aimed for children and other less able readers -
> present tense is simpler.
Except that present tense narration actually uses other
tenses as well, just as past tense narration uses multiple
tenses.
[...]
Steve Coltrin
May 10, 2016, 2:18:57 PM5/10/16
to
begin fnord
poorly_. If I recall, I bounced hard off it the first time I tried to
read it because of the lousy execution.
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>But he got away with it splendidly in _Lord of Light_.
>>
> Hm. It's been decades since I read that, but ISTR it was all
> about Hindu deities, or some variant thereof. Perhaps the
> backwards-and-forwards technique works better when one is
> covering a long stretch of time, rather than a couple of weeks?
An enormous chunk of the book is one long flashback, signalled _very, very
>>But he got away with it splendidly in _Lord of Light_.
>>
> Hm. It's been decades since I read that, but ISTR it was all
> about Hindu deities, or some variant thereof. Perhaps the
> backwards-and-forwards technique works better when one is
> covering a long stretch of time, rather than a couple of weeks?
poorly_. If I recall, I bounced hard off it the first time I tried to
read it because of the lousy execution.
Jack Bohn
May 10, 2016, 2:33:12 PM5/10/16
to
Damon Runyon's gangsters and gamblers speak in present tense, or maybe it is his narrator, for, though a biographer of his goes through court testimony and finds that this -in a less impeccable form- is a common speech pattern of the lowlifes of the day, Runyon's narrator puts it in the mouths of even educated characters such as Judge Goldfobbber ("Of course, Judge Goldfobber is not a judge, and never is a judge, and he is 100 to 1 in my line against ever being a judge"). There is no question that the stories he tells and that others tell him are occurring in the past.
--
-Jack
--
-Jack
Kevrob
May 10, 2016, 2:45:24 PM5/10/16
to
some of theat imitable present tense style.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/03/02/talk-it-up
Kevin R
Gene Wirchenko
May 10, 2016, 3:14:09 PM5/10/16
to
On 9 May 2016 22:34:58 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
Like me.
Meaning I am one of those people.
If you would prefer to hate me, I can live with it.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Meaning I am one of those people.
If you would prefer to hate me, I can live with it.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 3:15:14 PM5/10/16
to
In article <ea64dca8-c20a-4c88...@googlegroups.com>,
What Runyon uses is the "historical present," in which the
present tense is used *throughout* to portray past events. It is
as if Runyon's first-person narrator (who is not very bright)
doesn't know the past tense exists.
And it works all right, because the guy is using the language of
his place, time, and socioeconomic class.
But there's one story, "The Old Doll's House" (N.B. "doll" means
any female, of whatever age), in which the use of the historical
present suddenly turns itself inside out and expresses what is
eternal.
SPOILERS, in the course of a very short summary, ensue.
....
A young hoodlum is on trial for having murdered a
rival/enemy/competitor and several of his henchmen (which he
almost certainly did).
But at the trial, a little old lady with incredible amounts of
money, and thus respectable, comes in to testify that on the night
in question, having escaped his pursuers by jumping over her wall
and spent the night having drinks and sandwiches at her house,
talking about (inter alia) how she had a young lover whom her irate
father kicked out of the house to freeze to death.
"And at what time does he leave your house?"
"It is exactly twelve midnight, by my old grandfather clock."
Which is within minutes of the time of the murder, which gets the
young hoodlum acquitted.
But, and here I quote:
"But of course it is just as well for Lance that Miss Abigail
Ardsley does not explain to the court that when she recovers from
the shock of finding her ever-loving young guy frozen to death,
she stops all the clocks at her house at the hour she sees him
last, so that for forty-five years it is always twelve o'clock in
her house."
present tense is used *throughout* to portray past events. It is
as if Runyon's first-person narrator (who is not very bright)
doesn't know the past tense exists.
And it works all right, because the guy is using the language of
his place, time, and socioeconomic class.
But there's one story, "The Old Doll's House" (N.B. "doll" means
any female, of whatever age), in which the use of the historical
present suddenly turns itself inside out and expresses what is
eternal.
SPOILERS, in the course of a very short summary, ensue.
....
A young hoodlum is on trial for having murdered a
rival/enemy/competitor and several of his henchmen (which he
almost certainly did).
But at the trial, a little old lady with incredible amounts of
money, and thus respectable, comes in to testify that on the night
in question, having escaped his pursuers by jumping over her wall
and spent the night having drinks and sandwiches at her house,
talking about (inter alia) how she had a young lover whom her irate
father kicked out of the house to freeze to death.
"And at what time does he leave your house?"
"It is exactly twelve midnight, by my old grandfather clock."
Which is within minutes of the time of the murder, which gets the
young hoodlum acquitted.
But, and here I quote:
"But of course it is just as well for Lance that Miss Abigail
Ardsley does not explain to the court that when she recovers from
the shock of finding her ever-loving young guy frozen to death,
she stops all the clocks at her house at the hour she sees him
last, so that for forty-five years it is always twelve o'clock in
her house."
Gene Wirchenko
May 10, 2016, 3:19:00 PM5/10/16
to
On Mon, 9 May 2016 20:16:02 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
Ah, those are The Eight Deadly Words -- Good afternoon, Dorothy
-- which I was thinking of when I wrote my bit.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
-- which I was thinking of when I wrote my bit.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 3:30:04 PM5/10/16
to
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
May 10, 2016, 3:37:59 PM5/10/16
to
the other used-book services.
Those who use Kindles can actually buy the thing new. (for a pretty
high price, though)
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 3:45:04 PM5/10/16
to
In article <4vc4jb1rjtot0ejeg...@4ax.com>,
Heh. Good afternoon. The same category was called "earthquake
stories" by Marion Zimmer Bradley, as in "I wish an earthquake
would kill off all these characters," and I believe Mark Twain
went on record as wishing all of Jane Austen's characters would
fall down a well.
Which goes to show once more that you can't please everybody.
stories" by Marion Zimmer Bradley, as in "I wish an earthquake
would kill off all these characters," and I believe Mark Twain
went on record as wishing all of Jane Austen's characters would
fall down a well.
Which goes to show once more that you can't please everybody.
Dimensional Traveler
May 10, 2016, 3:56:39 PM5/10/16
to
find it sometime in the next decade? :)
--
Privacy IS Security
Joseph Nebus
May 10, 2016, 4:00:33 PM5/10/16
to
In <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:
>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
seems a natural in-cluing technique.
So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
--
Joseph Nebus
Math: Reading the Comics: Mistakes Edition http://wp.me/p1RYhY-118
Humor: From The April 2016 Scraps File http://wp.me/p37lb5-1e0
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------
>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
seems a natural in-cluing technique.
So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
--
Joseph Nebus
Math: Reading the Comics: Mistakes Edition http://wp.me/p1RYhY-118
Humor: From The April 2016 Scraps File http://wp.me/p37lb5-1e0
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------
lal_truckee
May 10, 2016, 4:18:23 PM5/10/16
to
On 5/9/16 7:57 AM, William December Starr wrote:
> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will. Kill. You."
> been so appropriate.
There ought to be a demon charged with just such responsibility looking
> Seldom have the words "Get. To. The. Point. Or. I. Will. Kill. You."
> been so appropriate.
over the shoulder of every writer tempted to write a series...
Kevrob
May 10, 2016, 4:28:28 PM5/10/16
to
It does bring to mind a lovely fate for loathed characters:
they could fall down a well, then an earthquake could cause the
well to collapse in on them. :)
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 5:15:04 PM5/10/16
to
In article <ngtd41$2fi$1...@dont-email.me>,
Thank you. Amazon didn't use to have them, but now* I shall
search them and see if I can score one.
_____
*Well, not now, but as soon as my bank balance recovers from
Golden Beltane. Which was a ten-day-long camping event
celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the SCA's first
tournament, in Diana Paxson's back yard. There were a couple of
potters there, and the silk merchants .....
search them and see if I can score one.
_____
*Well, not now, but as soon as my bank balance recovers from
Golden Beltane. Which was a ten-day-long camping event
celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the SCA's first
tournament, in Diana Paxson's back yard. There were a couple of
potters there, and the silk merchants .....
Dorothy J Heydt
May 10, 2016, 5:15:04 PM5/10/16
to
In article <ngteku$934$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
whateveritwas Street, and I had the plot, but I couldn't manage
the lingo. I think it's a gift, and remember that Runyon sat
around for HOURs per day listening to the genuine gansters
chatting about their next heist.
Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>In <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December
>Starr) writes:
>
>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
>
> ... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
>I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
>it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
>vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
>and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
>
> I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
>And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
>seems a natural in-cluing technique.
>
> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
>and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
>and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
>that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
>it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
>in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
I tried to write a fantasy story set in Runyon's Broadway and
>In <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December
>Starr) writes:
>
>>Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
>
> ... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
>I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
>it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
>vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
>and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
>
> I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
>And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
>seems a natural in-cluing technique.
>
> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
>and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
>and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
>that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
>it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
>in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
whateveritwas Street, and I had the plot, but I couldn't manage
the lingo. I think it's a gift, and remember that Runyon sat
around for HOURs per day listening to the genuine gansters
chatting about their next heist.
Kevrob
May 10, 2016, 6:17:58 PM5/10/16
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Runyon would sit, and sit, and sit...and listen.
It is known as "Mindy's" in the Runyon oeuvre, and in
the Broadway musical, "Guys and Dolls," based on Runyon's
stories.
Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
May 10, 2016, 7:11:33 PM5/10/16
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On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 21:00:33 UTC+1, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> In <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:
>
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
>
> ... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
> I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
> it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
> vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
> and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
>
> I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
> And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
> seems a natural in-cluing technique.
>
> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
> and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
> and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
> that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
> it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
> in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
Well - what form of imitation are you looking for? Present tense
> In <ngrh7o$fs6$1...@panix3.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:
>
> >Present tense doesn't put me off (I read Stross, don't I?), [ ... ]
>
> ... which ties into something I was getting ready to ask here.
> I've recently finished a big collection of Damon Runyon stories, and
> it's got me pondering. His ``Broadway'' stories are these wonderfully
> vivid, present-tense, slangy stories built with a Wodehousian tightness
> and marginally fewer weddings, though more killing.
>
> I can't think of many SFnal stories that imitate them, though.
> And that seems strange, particularly since the chatty personal tone
> seems a natural in-cluing technique.
>
> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
> and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
> and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
> that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
> it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
> in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
you can have; science fiction or fantasy dealing with criminals,
certainly; A story told mostly in slang so you may be not
quite sure what's going on - all of those are possible,
as is dropping an alien or a time traveller into Broadway
so that hilarity ensues.
An actual Runyon pastiche in sci-fi would have to do all of
those things And also should have some worth as a story as
well as just ticking all the boxes.
Maybe the musical and movie of _Guys and Dolls_ should be
the specific target ("Sit Down, You're Producing an
Eccentricity in the Lifepod's Course Governance System",
"Improbability Generator, Be a Lady Tonight").
That aside, I think William Gibson's work and in particular
"Burning Chrome" meets some of the conditions, and
_Bug Jack Barron_ has present-tense, stream of consciousness,
weird vocabulary. And Larry Niven's "The Meddler" puts
an alien observer into a knight-errant private detective
story.
Jack Bohn
May 10, 2016, 9:01:10 PM5/10/16
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Spider Robinson wrote a Runyon pastiche. Not "Half an Oaf"... ah, probably "Chronic Offender." I liked it. He even went to the lengths of NOT writing puns in it. ...well, just the one.
I imagine Wodehouse is more imitated, by which I mean I can think of two: Charles Sheffield's "Marriage of True Minds" set in Blandings -- Sheffield is not what I'd call a stylist, and I had not read Wodehouse, yet (this was part of the weight inclining me towards him), but what I remember of the plot is worthy -- the other is "Scream for Jeeves" by I forget who and you can look up as easily -- Wodehouse meets Lovecraft; fortunately not written in a melding of their styles, but as a poor impersonation of Bertram Wooster.
--
-Jack
I imagine Wodehouse is more imitated, by which I mean I can think of two: Charles Sheffield's "Marriage of True Minds" set in Blandings -- Sheffield is not what I'd call a stylist, and I had not read Wodehouse, yet (this was part of the weight inclining me towards him), but what I remember of the plot is worthy -- the other is "Scream for Jeeves" by I forget who and you can look up as easily -- Wodehouse meets Lovecraft; fortunately not written in a melding of their styles, but as a poor impersonation of Bertram Wooster.
--
-Jack
Jack Bohn
May 10, 2016, 9:01:11 PM5/10/16
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Gene Wirchenko
May 11, 2016, 12:08:04 AM5/11/16
to
On Tue, 10 May 2016 19:30:33 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <4vc4jb1rjtot0ejeg...@4ax.com>,
>Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
[snip]
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <4vc4jb1rjtot0ejeg...@4ax.com>,
>Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> wrote:
>> Ah, those are The Eight Deadly Words -- Good afternoon, Dorothy
>>-- which I was thinking of when I wrote my bit.
>
>Heh. Good afternoon. The same category was called "earthquake
>stories" by Marion Zimmer Bradley, as in "I wish an earthquake
>would kill off all these characters," and I believe Mark Twain
>went on record as wishing all of Jane Austen's characters would
>fall down a well.
>
>Which goes to show once more that you can't please everybody.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
May 11, 2016, 12:30:13 AM5/11/16
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In article <f0ffff10-7a9c-42d3...@googlegroups.com>,
....
to. My problem with _BJB_ was that he was so anxious to get the
most evil, corrupt, cruel behavior he could possibly come up
with, that he wound up completely ignoring the nature of human
biology.
Which is also not his fault _per se,_ we can't all know
everything, but it dropped my suspension of disbelief to heavy
ground with a substantial thud.
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>Maybe the musical and movie of _Guys and Dolls_ should be
>the specific target ("Sit Down, You're Producing an
>Eccentricity in the Lifepod's Course Governance System",
>"Improbability Generator, Be a Lady Tonight").
Heh.
>Maybe the musical and movie of _Guys and Dolls_ should be
>the specific target ("Sit Down, You're Producing an
>Eccentricity in the Lifepod's Course Governance System",
>"Improbability Generator, Be a Lady Tonight").
....
>_Bug Jack Barron_ has present-tense, stream of consciousness,
>weird vocabulary.
Any writer has, of course, the right to write whatever he wants
>weird vocabulary.
to. My problem with _BJB_ was that he was so anxious to get the
most evil, corrupt, cruel behavior he could possibly come up
with, that he wound up completely ignoring the nature of human
biology.
Which is also not his fault _per se,_ we can't all know
everything, but it dropped my suspension of disbelief to heavy
ground with a substantial thud.
Quadibloc
May 11, 2016, 3:04:37 PM5/11/16
to
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:28:28 PM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:
> It does bring to mind a lovely fate for loathed characters:
> they could fall down a well, then an earthquake could cause the
> well to collapse in on them. :)
This reminds me...
> It does bring to mind a lovely fate for loathed characters:
> they could fall down a well, then an earthquake could cause the
> well to collapse in on them. :)
I had the experience of reading a *more accurate* English translation of Jules
Verne's "To the Center of the Earth" than the rather poor one which is the best
known.
In it, we find that the protagonist's father... displays a distressing
characteristic often associated with Germans. Of course, Jules Verne was
writing long before the Holocaust... but this has the effect of leading modern
readers to wish he were eaten by a dinosaur, which rather spoils the effect
intended by the author, of merely giving his characters humorous foibles (the
narrator and protagonist had one too, not being the adventurous sort).
John Savard
Quadibloc
May 11, 2016, 3:06:37 PM5/11/16
to
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 4:17:58 PM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:
> The original Lindy's was @ Broadway and 50th. That's where
> Runyon would sit, and sit, and sit...and listen.
> It is known as "Mindy's" in the Runyon oeuvre, and in
> the Broadway musical, "Guys and Dolls," based on Runyon's
> stories.
I wonder if Damon Runyon's works had an influence on a popular situation comedy
> The original Lindy's was @ Broadway and 50th. That's where
> Runyon would sit, and sit, and sit...and listen.
> It is known as "Mindy's" in the Runyon oeuvre, and in
> the Broadway musical, "Guys and Dolls," based on Runyon's
> stories.
starring Robin Williams?
John Savard
Quadibloc
May 11, 2016, 3:11:34 PM5/11/16
to
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 10:30:13 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Any writer has, of course, the right to write whatever he wants
> to. My problem with _BJB_ was that he was so anxious to get the
> most evil, corrupt, cruel behavior he could possibly come up
> with, that he wound up completely ignoring the nature of human
> biology.
> Which is also not his fault _per se,_ we can't all know
> everything, but it dropped my suspension of disbelief to heavy
> ground with a substantial thud.
I've never read that book, and I'm probably not too interested at this point in
> Any writer has, of course, the right to write whatever he wants
> to. My problem with _BJB_ was that he was so anxious to get the
> most evil, corrupt, cruel behavior he could possibly come up
> with, that he wound up completely ignoring the nature of human
> biology.
> Which is also not his fault _per se,_ we can't all know
> everything, but it dropped my suspension of disbelief to heavy
> ground with a substantial thud.
a depiction of evil. I tend to prefer melodrama with a happy ending.
But it makes sense to me that the ultimate evil wouldn't be the common garden
variety simply driven by the desire to satisfy one's wants with no regard for
the well-being and rights of others. That would be merely banal.
Of course, some of the Bond villains were evil in this banal sense even while
having pretensions to being artists of evil - and met appropriately ignominious
ends.
John Savard
Robert Carnegie
May 11, 2016, 3:52:25 PM5/11/16
to
candidate for U.S. President...
David DeLaney
May 12, 2016, 12:09:09 AM5/12/16
to
On 2016-05-10, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 21:00:33 UTC+1, Joseph Nebus wrote:
>> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
>> and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
>> and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
>> that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
>> it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
>> in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
>
> Well - what form of imitation are you looking for? Present tense
> you can have; science fiction or fantasy dealing with criminals,
> certainly; A story told mostly in slang so you may be not
> quite sure what's going on - all of those are possible,
> as is dropping an alien or a time traveller into Broadway
> so that hilarity ensues.
>
> An actual Runyon pastiche in sci-fi would have to do all of
> those things And also should have some worth as a story as
> well as just ticking all the boxes.
... and now that you list them all together, didn't Spider Robinson write at
> On Tuesday, 10 May 2016 21:00:33 UTC+1, Joseph Nebus wrote:
>> So I'll grant the problem is my own ignorance of the field,
>> and that I'm overlooking OBVIOUS-AUTHOR and EVEN-MORE-OBVIOUS-AUTHOR
>> and I'm skipping Stross because he somehow makes my teeth hurt. And
>> that's only a side point anyway. I'm wondering who are authors that
>> it feels like ought to be more influential, or at least more copied,
>> in science fiction and that don't seem to be somehow?
>
> Well - what form of imitation are you looking for? Present tense
> you can have; science fiction or fantasy dealing with criminals,
> certainly; A story told mostly in slang so you may be not
> quite sure what's going on - all of those are possible,
> as is dropping an alien or a time traveller into Broadway
> so that hilarity ensues.
>
> An actual Runyon pastiche in sci-fi would have to do all of
> those things And also should have some worth as a story as
> well as just ticking all the boxes.
least one such short story? (Not _Half an Oaf_, I think, but YASID plz?)
Dave, maybe it was part of one of the Callahan books?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Michael F. Stemper
May 13, 2016, 4:02:39 PM5/13/16
to
it was that was the Bogart character's hangout at the opening of "All
Through the Night"?
--
Michael F. Stemper
Kevrob
May 13, 2016, 7:27:37 PM5/13/16
to
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034449/reviews-51
Cheesecake is involved.
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
May 18, 2016, 2:15:14 PM5/18/16
to
In article <2f668f64-6290-4b3e...@googlegroups.com>,
Well, they tried that in Real Life (tm), didn't they? And now
the Real Republicans (tm) are complaining that they didn't get
one.
the Real Republicans (tm) are complaining that they didn't get
one.
Richard Botting
May 18, 2016, 7:46:10 PM5/18/16
to
I recall a short story in a SF magazine set in a world where telepathy and telekinesis etc work. And was very Damonic. About betting on horses... It starts with a poker game which is no longer a game of chance but a game of skill.
Anyone recall the title and author?
Anyone recall the title and author?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
May 18, 2016, 7:59:04 PM5/18/16
to
Richard Botting <rjbot...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9582e5bc-0108-4607...@googlegroups.com:
> It starts with a poker game which is no
> longer a game of chance but a game of skill.
>
Poke is always a game of skill.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:9582e5bc-0108-4607...@googlegroups.com:
> It starts with a poker game which is no
> longer a game of chance but a game of skill.
>
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Woodward
May 19, 2016, 1:58:06 AM5/19/16
to
In article <9582e5bc-0108-4607...@googlegroups.com>,
"The Big Fix" by George O. Smith (first appeared in the Dec 1959 issue
of Astounding SF); an E-Book edition can be found on Project Gutenberg
site.
of Astounding SF); an E-Book edition can be found on Project Gutenberg
site.
Quadibloc
May 20, 2016, 9:23:12 PM5/20/16
to
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 5:46:10 PM UTC-6, Richard Botting wrote:
> I recall a short story in a SF magazine set in a world where telepathy and
> telekinesis etc work. And was very Damonic.
Runyon rather than Knight, I take it, from what followed in your post.
> I recall a short story in a SF magazine set in a world where telepathy and
> telekinesis etc work. And was very Damonic.
John Savard
Richard Botting
May 21, 2016, 2:52:57 PM5/21/16
to
Many thanks!
William December Starr
May 22, 2016, 5:30:11 AM5/22/16
to
In article <47587fff-b1b2-4766...@googlegroups.com>,
Will in New Haven <willre...@yahoo.com> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>
>> I knew there would be people who do. There are people who like
>> HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET?, after all.
>
> Does anyone who read it and isn't a humorless Trekfan _not_ like
> HMfJtP?
Yes. Me.
-- wds
Will in New Haven <willre...@yahoo.com> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>
>> I knew there would be people who do. There are people who like
>> HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET?, after all.
>
> Does anyone who read it and isn't a humorless Trekfan _not_ like
> HMfJtP?
-- wds
William December Starr
May 22, 2016, 5:45:10 AM5/22/16
to
In article <019a28c4-72df-4dd6...@googlegroups.com>,
couldn't remember the title (my brain kept insisting on the name
of the classic "The Simpsons" 'Treehouse of Horror V' bit, "Time
and Punishment"). "Chronic Offender" is correct.
One of Robinson's much better works; another is "Local Champ,"
which also doesn't at all read like what we (I) think of as "a
Spider Robinson story."
("Chronic Offender" is findable in the Robinson collections
MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS and BY ANY OTHER NAME (the latter's cover
artwork appears to be at least partly inspired by that story, see
http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/4c/BYNYTHRNM2001.jpg ); "Local
Champ" is in TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH and GOD IS AN IRON AND
OTHER STORIES.)
-- wds
Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> said:
> Spider Robinson wrote a Runyon pastiche. Not "Half an
> Oaf"... ah, probably "Chronic Offender." I liked it. He even
> went to the lengths of NOT writing puns in it. ...well, just
> the one.
Yes, I was going to reference/recommend that one too except I
> Spider Robinson wrote a Runyon pastiche. Not "Half an
> Oaf"... ah, probably "Chronic Offender." I liked it. He even
> went to the lengths of NOT writing puns in it. ...well, just
> the one.
couldn't remember the title (my brain kept insisting on the name
of the classic "The Simpsons" 'Treehouse of Horror V' bit, "Time
and Punishment"). "Chronic Offender" is correct.
One of Robinson's much better works; another is "Local Champ,"
which also doesn't at all read like what we (I) think of as "a
Spider Robinson story."
("Chronic Offender" is findable in the Robinson collections
MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS and BY ANY OTHER NAME (the latter's cover
artwork appears to be at least partly inspired by that story, see
http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/4/4c/BYNYTHRNM2001.jpg ); "Local
Champ" is in TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH and GOD IS AN IRON AND
OTHER STORIES.)
-- wds
Jack_Bohn
May 24, 2016, 12:53:09 PM5/24/16
to
--
-Jack
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