Thought on Star Wars

Shawn Wilson

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Jun 23, 2015, 6:02:51 PM6/23/15

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So, what if the Sith AREN'T necessarily evil, it was just the Emperor and his lackeys? Yeah, I know the extended universe makes them the go to villains. But, in the movies the Sith apparently minded their own business for millennia. The Jedi didn't even know they still existed. Darth Plageus could create life via the force, hardly an evil power.

pete...@gmail.com

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Jun 23, 2015, 6:10:33 PM6/23/15

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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 6:02:51 PM UTC-4, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> So, what if the Sith AREN'T necessarily evil, it was just the Emperor and his lackeys? Yeah, I know the extended universe makes them the go to villains. But, in the movies the Sith apparently minded their own business for millennia. The Jedi didn't even know they still existed. Darth Plageus could create life via the force, hardly an evil power.

Sith? What are these Sith you speak of? I don't recall them from from any of the
three Star Wars films.

pt

David Johnston

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Jun 23, 2015, 6:27:38 PM6/23/15

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Creating life is one of the big mad scientist occupations. It rarely
turns out well, particularly when you have "plague" in your name. Also
I didn't have the impression that the Jedi thought that the Sith had
been wiped out for millenia. More like a century or two.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jun 23, 2015, 6:58:41 PM6/23/15

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Er, Darth Vader? "A Dark Lord of the Sith"?

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Shawn Wilson

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Jun 23, 2015, 7:07:40 PM6/23/15

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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 3:58:41 PM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/23/15 6:10 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 6:02:51 PM UTC-4, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> >> So, what if the Sith AREN'T necessarily evil, it was just the Emperor and his lackeys? Yeah, I know the extended universe makes them the go to villains. But, in the movies the Sith apparently minded their own business for millennia. The Jedi didn't even know they still existed. Darth Plageus could create life via the force, hardly an evil power.
> >
> > Sith? What are these Sith you speak of? I don't recall them from from any of the
> > three Star Wars films.
>
> Er, Darth Vader? "A Dark Lord of the Sith"?

Case in point- if the Sith were always and automatically evil, it wouldn't be necessary to point out that Vader was dark. It had to be pointe dout because there was the possibility that Vader was a *light* lord of the Sith. A good guy.

David Johnston

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Jun 23, 2015, 7:15:52 PM6/23/15

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Or the sentence is specifying the kind of dark lord he is.

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

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Jun 23, 2015, 7:34:27 PM6/23/15

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Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:02f2b2b3-f15f-48eb...@googlegroups.com:

If Disney ever decides to sell the franchise, and you had more than
two nickels to rub together to buy it, your babblying might be
meaningful to, you know, growns ups and shit.

But whether or not the bad guys are bad guys is a matter of
definition, and Lucas made the definition pretty clear. Disney's
not going to change it - they are incapable of making a movie that
doesn't have *bad* guys.

All else, including the whole "The Empire stands for law and order,
the rebels are terrorists" nonsense, if fan wankery of the first
order. You're not even being slightly original about it. I've heard
this crap since the 70s.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

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Jun 23, 2015, 7:36:05 PM6/23/15

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David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote in
news:mmcp8k$ia9$2...@dont-email.me:

Or it's a fashion statement for people who haven't seen pictures of
the _black_ clothing.

I mean, if it's fan wankery we're in to, we have to consider this:

http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/hello-kitty-darth-vader.jpg

It's more canon than Shawn's babbling.

lal_truckee

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Jun 23, 2015, 8:13:12 PM6/23/15

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On 6/23/15 4:36 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>
> http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/hello-kitty-darth-vader.jpg

We are all doomed.

Moriarty

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Jun 23, 2015, 8:40:51 PM6/23/15

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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 9:15:52 AM UTC+10, David Johnston wrote:
> On 6/23/2015 5:07 PM, Shawn Wilson wrote:

<snip>

> >> Er, Darth Vader? "A Dark Lord of the Sith"?
> >
> >
> > Case in point- if the Sith were always and automatically evil, it wouldn't be necessary to point out that Vader was dark. It had to be pointe dout because there was the possibility that Vader was a *light* lord of the Sith. A good guy.
> >
>
> Or the sentence is specifying the kind of dark lord he is.

Or is a tautology.

-Moriarty

Cryptoengineer

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Jun 23, 2015, 9:07:58 PM6/23/15

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Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:02f2b2b3-f15f-48eb...@googlegroups.com:

I'm not quite the SW fan some people are. Was the word 'Sith' actually
used in any of the first 3 movies, in their pre-revamp cuts?

pt

Moriarty

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Jun 23, 2015, 9:15:03 PM6/23/15

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It certainly was in the novelisation of the first movie, written by Lucas (ghosted by Alan Dean Foster).

I haven't got it in front of me but the first appearance of Vader had something like "The tall frame of the Dark Lord of the Sith swept into the room".

-Moriarty

Cryptoengineer

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Jun 23, 2015, 9:18:22 PM6/23/15

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Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XnsA4C2D6F842...@216.166.97.131:

OK, I just checked the scripts for all three Star Wars movies. The word
'Sith' appears in all three, but ONLY in non-spoken scene and action
descriptions. At no point does it appear in spoken dialog, not is the
word visible on any prop.

To a fan watching the three SW movies, the word does not exist. There
are no Sith in those movies, unless you have information from outside
them.

pt

Greg Goss

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Jun 23, 2015, 9:54:43 PM6/23/15

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I believe that Vader was "Dark Lord of the Sith" at some point, though
the group didn't get much background.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

Greg Goss

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Jun 23, 2015, 10:10:03 PM6/23/15

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Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:

>not is the
>word visible on any prop.

Can you read the script used to label stuff?

Sometime before the second trilogy came out, I spent most of a week
digging around in the Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I think he
had a fairly large section about the multiple scripts used on various
things.

I can't find it today in a quick glance through
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/index.html

It is hazardous to my ability to accomplish OTHER stuff for me to
approach retcons like SWTC too closely.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jun 24, 2015, 7:13:52 AM6/24/15

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But it WAS in the original scripts, so that was established as canon,
and we fans knew about it from the beginning. Promo material let you
know Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith and there was a LOT of discussion
from '77 on about exactly what a "Sith" was, how they related to the
Jedi, and so on and so forth. I ought to know, we were running RPG
campaigns using Star Wars stuff pretty much right after it came out, and
Sith -- various guesswork versions -- played a part in most of them.

pete...@gmail.com

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Jun 24, 2015, 10:15:30 AM6/24/15

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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:10:03 PM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >not is the
> >word visible on any prop.
>
> Can you read the script used to label stuff?

Famously, the only readable script in ANH is on the tractor beam control
panel which Ben futzes with to release the MF. I'm not aware of other
readable script in the three movies.

Can you point to any place the word 'Sith' can be read?

> Sometime before the second trilogy came out, I spent most of a week
> digging around in the Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I think he
> had a fairly large section about the multiple scripts used on various
> things.

FWIW, I'm using the scripts on imsdb.com, eg:
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html

> I can't find it today in a quick glance through
> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/index.html
>
> It is hazardous to my ability to accomplish OTHER stuff for me to
> approach retcons like SWTC too closely.

You're clearly more of an uber-SW fan than I.

pt

pete...@gmail.com

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Jun 24, 2015, 10:18:32 AM6/24/15

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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 7:13:52 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/23/15 9:18 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> > Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > news:XnsA4C2D6F842...@216.166.97.131:

[...]

> > OK, I just checked the scripts for all three Star Wars movies. The word
> > 'Sith' appears in all three, but ONLY in non-spoken scene and action
> > descriptions. At no point does it appear in spoken dialog, not is the
> > word visible on any prop.
> >
> > To a fan watching the three SW movies, the word does not exist. There
> > are no Sith in those movies, unless you have information from outside
> > them.
>
> But it WAS in the original scripts, so that was established as canon,
> and we fans knew about it from the beginning. Promo material let you
> know Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith and there was a LOT of discussion
> from '77 on about exactly what a "Sith" was, how they related to the
> Jedi, and so on and so forth. I ought to know, we were running RPG
> campaigns using Star Wars stuff pretty much right after it came out, and
> Sith -- various guesswork versions -- played a part in most of them.

So, it comes down to 'what is canon?'. I thought SW was great fun, but I
didn't seek out extra SW Universe material. The term 'Sith' was new to me
when Episode 1 came out.

pt

William December Starr

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Jun 24, 2015, 11:49:06 AM6/24/15

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In article <mmco8f$et0$2...@dont-email.me>,

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:

> On 6/23/15 6:10 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Sith? What are these Sith you speak of? I don't recall them from
>> from any of the three Star Wars films.
>
> Er, Darth Vader? "A Dark Lord of the Sith"?

I honestly don't recall that, or any other use of the word "Sith,"
from the 1977-1983 Star Wars movies[1]. I think the first place I
ever saw the word was in a Marvel comics adaptation of the first(?)
movie.

-----------
*1: I acknowledge that George Lucas may have added such years later
along with crap like Han-shot-second of course.

-- wds

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

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Jun 24, 2015, 12:13:47 PM6/24/15

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lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:mmcsk5$rub$1...@dont-email.me:

We have all been doomed for a long, long time.

Jerry Brown

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Jun 24, 2015, 1:30:02 PM6/24/15

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On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT), pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:10:03 PM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
>> Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >not is the
>> >word visible on any prop.
>>
>> Can you read the script used to label stuff?
>
>Famously, the only readable script in ANH is on the tractor beam control
>panel which Ben futzes with to release the MF. I'm not aware of other
>readable script in the three movies.

In a related note, Mos Eisley Docking Bay 94 (housing the Falcon) has
the digits "94" on its entrance.

I can't remember if the terms X- and Y-Wing actually occur anywhere in
dialogue in the films (as opposed to simply fighter or ship), but what
are they named for when the written language doesn't appear to have
those letters?

And also, what creature is the Millennium Falcon named for when we
never see any evidence of Earth-type creatures apart from humanoids
(ADF's novelisation mentions Luke once possessing a dog, but That Is
Not Canon)?

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

Alie...@gmail.com

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Jun 24, 2015, 3:40:55 PM6/24/15

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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 3:02:51 PM UTC-7, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> So, what if the Sith AREN'T necessarily evil, it was just the Emperor and his
> lackeys? Yeah, I know the extended universe makes them the go to villains.

Everyone else seems to be all about the canon, so I'll just ignore it and hare wildly off into speculation-land.

In modern local parlance the Sith and the Jedi are simply different major sects of a common religion which decry each other as heretical, with the disdain characteristic of idealists for the collateral damage they wreak on civilians during their internecine struggles for primacy.

The schism is over whether the Force is a uniting influence to be surrendered to, or a resource to be exploited for individual gain.

Compare the triple branches of the Abrahamic tradition, with different takes on how enthusiastically, or whether, to pursue evangelism and variations on Mystery Schools.

> But, in the movies the Sith apparently minded their own business for
> millennia. The Jedi didn't even know they still existed.

The Sith got really good at hiding. Worse, while their "one master, one pupil" rule afforded full-time one-on-one attention to the apprentice, mass appeal was Right Out.

> Darth Plageus could create life via the force, hardly an evil power.

What? Even in the Abrahamic traditions that's usurping the Big Boss's fundamental power.

Mark L. Fergerson

David Johnston

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Jun 24, 2015, 5:07:27 PM6/24/15

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On 6/24/2015 1:40 PM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 3:02:51 PM UTC-7, Shawn Wilson wrote:
>> So, what if the Sith AREN'T necessarily evil, it was just the Emperor and his
>> lackeys? Yeah, I know the extended universe makes them the go to villains.
>
> Everyone else seems to be all about the canon, so I'll just ignore it and hare wildly off into speculation-land.

As far as that goes, it's worth mentioning the Doyle/Macdonald
Mageworlds series for a rather more balanced portrayal of the Sith/Jedi
conflict.

William December Starr

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Jun 24, 2015, 5:47:37 PM6/24/15

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In article <XnsA4C35DE2527...@69.16.179.42>,
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote

>> On 6/23/15 4:36 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/hello-kitty-darth-vader.
>>> jpg
>>
>> We are all doomed.
>
> We have all been doomed for a long, long time.

13.7 billion years so far.

-- wds

William December Starr

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Jun 24, 2015, 5:53:02 PM6/24/15

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In article <gkploap0p38k3voug...@jwbrown.co.uk>,

Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> said:

> And also, what creature is the Millennium Falcon named for when we
> never see any evidence of Earth-type creatures apart from humanoids

True story: when I heard the name spoken in the movie for the very
first time I thought I heard Han Solo (or Harrison Ford, depending
on how you look at it) call the ship "the Millennium Fall." Which
would be a fairly cool name in its own right, I think.

-- wds

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Jun 24, 2015, 11:26:50 PM6/24/15

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On 2015-06-24, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in

>> If it was in the original script, in the original novel
>> adaptation done
>> by the creator, and it's a matter of fact (name of something)
>> rather than opinion, it's frickin' canon. It was publicly
>> released, it was on publicity materials released with the first
>> movie. "Sith" has been part of the Star Wars lexicon since
>> before Lucas even MADE the first movie. If it's not canon,
>> nothing is.
>
> Considering that Disney, owners of the franchise these days, never-
> wased everything but the movies, well, nothing *is* safe.
> Including, IIRC the announcement corre3ctly, the novelizations of
> the original movies.

As well as, famously (well, among SF fans anyway), the first actual Star
Wars novel by Foster, _Splinter of the Mind's Eye_; that came out in 1978,
when only one movie was out, and contradicted even the later movies. And set
precedent for most of the later "is this novel canon or not? what about
elements from it?" furious arguments in the process...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Robert Bannister

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Jun 24, 2015, 11:27:25 PM6/24/15

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What about golems?

--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia

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Jun 25, 2015, 1:10:07 PM6/25/15

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wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:mmhbfc$dl0$1
@panix2.panix.com:

It was in the promotional materials. Which is about as ambiguous a
source as you could ever hope to find, since promotional materials
often include stuff that's not actually in the movie.

David Johnston

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Jun 25, 2015, 1:16:09 PM6/25/15

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For someone who takes a hard line "if it's on screen it's canon"
position, this should not be an issue. After all it was on screen in
The Phantom Menace without doubt.

William December Starr

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Jun 25, 2015, 1:26:14 PM6/25/15

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In article <mmhcu5$q7r$1...@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <Da...@block.net> said:

> William December Starr wrote:

[ re the canonicity of "Sith" ]

>> I disagree. Is it up there on-screen, yes/no?
>
> For someone who takes a hard line "if it's on screen it's canon"
> position, this should not be an issue. After all it was on screen
> in The Phantom Menace without doubt.

The sub-topic here was what the state of play was after either (a)
only the release of "Star Wars" in 1977 or (b) the release of the
trilogy's conclusion in 1983.

-- wds

John Reiher

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Jun 25, 2015, 1:55:11 PM6/25/15

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If I remember in the novelization of the movie (ghost written by Alan
Dean Foster) Obi Won tells Luke he has to "learn to float like a duck"
to which Luke replies, "What's a duck?"

I guess it was Foster's way of lampshading the name of the Millennium Falcon.

--
John Reiher
Tri Tac Games Podcast
http://tritacsystems.podbean.com/

Shawn Wilson

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Jun 25, 2015, 2:19:15 PM6/25/15

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On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 10:55:11 AM UTC-7, Kedamono wrote:

> If I remember in the novelization of the movie (ghost written by Alan
> Dean Foster)

Ah, BUT it had George Lucas' name on the cover. Which makes it canon. And it said "sith". Besides, Sith is explicitly mentioned in the prequel movies, which are absolutely canon.

pete...@gmail.com

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Jun 25, 2015, 2:33:19 PM6/25/15

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...and we've gone full circle. To restart:

Sith? What are these Sith you speak of? I don't recall them from from any of the
three Star Wars films.

(this statement is as true now as it was the first time I said it)

pt

Shawn Wilson

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Jun 25, 2015, 2:44:57 PM6/25/15

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On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:11:41 AM UTC-7, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:

> It's all fanwankery. And Shawn's "the bad guys are really the good
> guys" drivel

That is not what I said. The bad guys are the Emperor and Vader, and I never said they were otherwise. The issue was whether OTHER Sith were necessarily bad guys, and while statements from the Jedi indicate that they considered the Sith 'bad guys' we NEVER see ANYTHING to indicate they actually were.

Was Palpatine ambitious and power hungry because he was a Sith? Or did he become a Sith to enable his pre-existing ambitions of power hunger? We have ZERO indication that other Sith were power hungry. What we know is that they were willing to fly under the radar for extremely long periods of time (centuries at a minimum, if not millennia). Even Vader was perfectly willing to go decades in exactly the same position power wise. While Palpatine was power hungry, we have seen no indication that other Sith were, and from the evidence they were NOT.

It's like Catholics and Protestants (or Sunni and Shiite...) condemning each other as demonic heretics. Their mutual feelings don't mean anything to other people.

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

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Jun 25, 2015, 2:51:51 PM6/25/15

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Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:56a306d7-27d9-47c0...@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 10:55:11 AM UTC-7, Kedamono wrote:
>
>
>> If I remember in the novelization of the movie (ghost written
>> by Alan Dean Foster)
>
>
> Ah, BUT it had George Lucas' name on the cover.

Except it isn't since Disney said it wasn't. And no amount of fan
wankery can change that.

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

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Jun 25, 2015, 2:52:42 PM6/25/15

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Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:27aafd03-3115-4899...@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:11:41 AM UTC-7, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy wrote:
>
>
>> It's all fanwankery. And Shawn's "the bad guys are really the
>> good guys" drivel
>
>
> That is not what I said.

Yeah, it pretty much is. No amount of lying or self delusion will
change that.

Greg Goss

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Jun 25, 2015, 4:17:00 PM6/25/15

to

I knew someone would call me out on "script", but never expected this
genius version. You know, of course, that I meant the physical,
visual, form of writing.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

William December Starr

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Jun 25, 2015, 6:23:49 PM6/25/15

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In article <2015062510550841742-kedamono@maccom>,

John Reiher <keda...@mac.com> said:

> If I remember in the novelization of the movie (ghost written by Alan
> Dean Foster) Obi Won tells Luke he has to "learn to float like a duck"
> to which Luke replies, "What's a duck?"
>
> I guess it was Foster's way of lampshading the name of the Millennium
> Falcon.

Maybe. But it does make sense when you consider the only physical
environment that Luke had known for his entire life. Not too many duck
ponds, I'll wager.

-- wds ("Tatooine: par 3,894,219, lots of sand traps, very few water hazards")

Anonymous

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Jun 26, 2015, 10:55:00 PM6/26/15

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

In article <XnsA4C3DA5864...@216.166.97.131>

> ....

I agree. "Sith" isn't said on-screen for the first three movies, SW
episodes 4,5 and 6. That's it for me. I don't need to spend time
digging out what someone might have had in mind, but didn't put on
the screen.

Adamastor Glace Mortimer

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iEYEAREKAAYFAlWNKqoACgkQ1vVH2r/FDv3zYgCg9FVZ2jMpx3rN8QAfr42bJeO9
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John F. Eldredge

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Jul 3, 2015, 12:07:35 AM7/3/15

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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:13:07 -0700, lal_truckee wrote:

> On 6/23/15 4:36 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>
>> http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/hello-kitty-darth-vader.jpg
>
> We are all doomed.

My favorite is Darth Vader, wearing a kilt and riding a unicycle, while
playing the Star Wars theme on flaming bagpipes.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnVjkE87FDY>