[Core] Twenty Core Problematic Speculative Fiction Works Every True Science Fiction Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

[James Nicoll]

Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
Have On Their Shelves

http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Carl Fink]

On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

I think this is actually (and probably deliberately ironically) the least
controversial of your lists that I've seen. I do think you're using
"problematic" in several different senses.
--
Carl Fink nitpi...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

[Don Kuenz]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

The Heinlein and the Willis are the only two stories on that list known
to me. IIRC my review about the Willis was recently posted. In summary,
_Blackout/All Clear_ belongs on your list.

The Heinlein not only belongs on your list it also lends itself to more
discussion, as is often the case with RAH. ;0) When he wrote _Farnham's
Freehold_ RAH lived in Colorado Springs. The city was sparsely populated
at that time and Denver *didn't* have brown smog hanging over it like a
pall.

A story about RAH's original house:

http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/pm652-art-hi.html

A story about the bomb shelter beneath the house that made it's way into
_Farnham's Freehold_:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010226192158/http://www.robertcrais.com/worldheinlein.htm

Thank you,

--
Don, KB7RPU

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

I've only read a few of these; many more I'm aware of, many with a vague
sense that they'd been controversial for one reason or another, but not
necessarily over what.

I'd love it if you'd annotate each work with a single line pointing out just
*what*, in your opinion, is problematic.

pt

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <oigf09$of9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>Have On Their Shelves
>
>http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

Well, I've at least heard of six of these, one one (I think), and have
read none. Not even the Heinlein. (Especially not the Heinlein.)

I'd love to know what's "problematic" about the rest so that I can
decide whether to avoid them or not. I think I've read a review of
the Tepper, but long ago and I don't remember anything about it.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[James Nicoll]

In article <slrnokni2m...@panix5.panix.com>,

Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>> Have On Their Shelves
>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>
>I think this is actually (and probably deliberately ironically) the least
>controversial of your lists that I've seen. I do think you're using
>"problematic" in several different senses.

Can you expand on that? I mean it in the sense if you loan one of these
to a friend without a head's up that, say, there's a Mighty Whitey theme
or the views about disabled people are a bit out of date, your friend may
not be well pleased.

[James Nicoll]

In article <38dc0685-8f72-410a...@googlegroups.com>,

The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley

Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
wildly, wildly reactionary.


Ecotopia by Ernest Callenbach

To pick just a couple points: Callenbach confuses his own sexual preferences
for political stances and to quote someone from rasfw, researched African
American culture by reading R. Crumb


Naamah's Curse by Jacqueline Carey

This is the one where it turns out the high caste lady can do love magic but
the low caste one only lust.


White Tiger by Kylie Chan

Mighty Whitey.


Tripoint by C. J. Cherryh

Kid decides he'd rather be with mom's rapist.


Grunts by Mary Gentle

Rape comedy.


Farnham’s Freehold by Robert A. Heinlein

Fitzhugh's Cannibals All: the SF novel.


Misspent Youth by Peter F. Hamilton

Manpain: the novel.


Touched by an Alien by Gini Koch

I was extremely put off by the use of torture and threats.


Sword Art Online: Aincrad by Reki Kawahara

Sexism.


The Storm Lord by Tanith Lee

Racism.


The Sardonyx Net by Elizabeth A. Lynn

Weirdly pro-slavers.


Tea with a Black Dragon by R. A. MacAvoy

Mighty whitey.


The Ship Who Sang by Anne McCaffrey

Ableism, of the 'of course, we euthanize the ones who cannot be made into
useful cyborgs' variety.


Voodoo Planet by Andre Norton

Racism, of the 'she meant well' variety


Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (film) by J. K. Rowling

It turns out to be more likely to run into a dragon in Jazz era Harlem than
a black person. Presumably, this is in the same ethnic cleansing timeline
that led to FRIENDS.


The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell

Awful, awful physics.


The Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S. Tepper

Eugenics.


Blackout/All Clear by Connie Willis

Idiot plot, asinine research failure


13th Child by Patricia Wrede

Eliminates a genocide that ruined the fun of thrilling settler tales by
erasing the victims of the genocide from this history, like a book that
fixes the unfortunate parts of the 3rd Reich by having Moses stay in Egypt
so the author can focus on the cool tanks

(to be honest, "the Jews never leave Egypt" is still better than one AH
I read, where Eurasia east of WWII era Germany was filled with actual,
flesh-eating monsters)

[James Nicoll]

In article <oigmfn$1ov$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley
>
>Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
>dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
>wildly, wildly reactionary.

I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally happier
when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god we're saving the
peasants from the corrupting influences of flush toilets and effective
medicine."

[Scott Lurndal]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>
>Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>Have On Their Shelves
>

Read two (FF & VP), saw FBWFT.

Not sure what qualifies the latter as "problematic", unless
it's Depp...

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:

> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> Should Have On Their Shelves

I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".

[James Nicoll]

In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,

"has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
the person you unthinkingly lent the book to."


Someone in a wheelchair, for example, might not care for the way the
people in The Ship Who Sang casually euthenize disabled people.

[David Johnston]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:18:48 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> >> Should Have On Their Shelves
> >
> >I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".
>
> "has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
> the person you unthinkingly lent the book to."
>
>
> Someone in a wheelchair, for example, might not care for the way the
> people in The Ship Who Sang casually euthenize disabled people.
>

Others might not care for the implication that they are avoiding preventing certain conditions with an imgact on fetal and infant development because they don't want to end up with a shortage of Brains.

[James Nicoll]

In article <a8R2B.50764$eP5....@fx20.iad>,

I don't know that I count Depp in a movie as "problematic" so much as
"boring caricature of himself."

[James Nicoll]

In article <6a9dfd1f-fd65-4cd1...@googlegroups.com>,

Gee whiz, the details one forgets when one does not reread a book in years....

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:09:50 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally happier
> when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god we're saving the
> peasants from the corrupting influences of flush toilets and effective
> medicine."

Thank you for expanding on the unique features of the several novels on the list.

I had recognized the names of some of them as novels that were generally well-
regarded, without a controversy attaching to their problematic elements, such as _The Heritage of Hastur_.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> 13th Child by Patricia Wrede

> Eliminates a genocide that ruined the fun of thrilling settler tales by
> erasing the victims of the genocide from this history, like a book that
> fixes the unfortunate parts of the 3rd Reich by having Moses stay in Egypt
> so the author can focus on the cool tanks

B-but... that makes it *less* problematic than all the zillions of Westerns that
have been written. Instead of reading Westerns set in our history that glamorize
the dispossession of the Native Americans, have virtuous stories of pioneers in
an alternate history where they didn't commit aggression against anyone!

Of course, it _is_ still problematic compared to novels about that period which
actually take the Native American viewpoint into account - more of which are
actually getting written these days.

John Savard

[Carl Fink]

On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnokni2m...@panix5.panix.com>,
> Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>>> Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>
>>I think this is actually (and probably deliberately ironically) the least
>>controversial of your lists that I've seen. I do think you're using
>>"problematic" in several different senses.
>
> Can you expand on that? I mean it in the sense if you loan one of these
> to a friend without a head's up that, say, there's a Mighty Whitey theme
> or the views about disabled people are a bit out of date, your friend may
> not be well pleased.

Some are (I perceive) morally problematic. Others perhaps just dated. Others
are problematic because their author, independently of the actual work of
fiction, is a child abuser. OK, I only see one example I'm familiar with of
that last one.

[Carl Fink]

On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

> In article <oigmfn$1ov$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley
>>
>>Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
>>dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
>>wildly, wildly reactionary.
>
> I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally happier
> when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god we're saving the
> peasants from the corrupting influences of flush toilets and effective
> medicine."

I honestly don't feel that's fair. In the broader Darkover series, it
becomes clear that the aristocracy is only *relatively* benevolent and at
least one story hinges on the non-nobles resenting the psi-using class, and
there's a period of fairly radical "leveling" in Darkovan history.

I was just thinking that the child abuse was your reason--and that one is
hard to argue with unless you're actually loaning the book to a known
pedophile (please do not!).

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 11:09:50 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <oigmfn$1ov$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley
> >
> >Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
> >dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
> >wildly, wildly reactionary.
>
> I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally happier
> when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god we're saving the
> peasants from the corrupting influences of flush toilets and effective
> medicine."

Thanks for posting the explanatory notes- they are exactly what I was asking
for, and I think this will be an interesting thread.

Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
well for the LotR's reactionary theme?

pt

[James Nicoll]

In article <38103cf1-6a7b-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
>well for the LotR's reactionary theme?

I don't dislike JRRT so much as my eyes slide off his books without
purchase.

[James Nicoll]

In article <slrnoknt4p...@panix3.panix.com>,

Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrnokni2m...@panix5.panix.com>,
>> Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>>>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>>>> Have On Their Shelves
>>>>
>>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>>
>>>I think this is actually (and probably deliberately ironically) the least
>>>controversial of your lists that I've seen. I do think you're using
>>>"problematic" in several different senses.
>>
>> Can you expand on that? I mean it in the sense if you loan one of these
>> to a friend without a head's up that, say, there's a Mighty Whitey theme
>> or the views about disabled people are a bit out of date, your friend may
>> not be well pleased.
>
>Some are (I perceive) morally problematic. Others perhaps just dated. Others
>are problematic because their author, independently of the actual work of
>fiction, is a child abuser. OK, I only see one example I'm familiar with of
>that last one.

I don't know how many olden time SF authors were child molesters like
MZB and her husband but it would be super, super easy to come up with
a list of 20 widely liked SF books with incredibly inappropriate
relationships between adult men and t(w)eens. Even if I left Heinlein
off.

[Carl Fink]

On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

> I don't know how many olden time SF authors were child molesters like
> MZB and her husband but it would be super, super easy to come up with
> a list of 20 widely liked SF books with incredibly inappropriate
> relationships between adult men and t(w)eens. Even if I left Heinlein
> off.

Off the top of my head, the one I first (as a kid myself) was uncomfortable
with was *The Witches of Karres*.

[James Nicoll]

In article <slrnokntkq...@panix3.panix.com>,

Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <oigmfn$1ov$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley
>>>
>>>Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
>>>dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
>>>wildly, wildly reactionary.
>>
>> I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally happier
>> when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god we're saving the
>> peasants from the corrupting influences of flush toilets and effective
>> medicine."
>
>I honestly don't feel that's fair.

I will grant I may have read a misleading sample.

[James Nicoll]

In article <oih0dv$h60$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <38103cf1-6a7b-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
>>well for the LotR's reactionary theme?
>
>I don't dislike JRRT so much as my eyes slide off his books without
>purchase.

There are a number of authors for whom this is true. I don't necessarily
see it as a fault on their part.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 11:13:12 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei wrote:

> Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
> well for the LotR's reactionary theme?

Although I loved LotR, in such matters as the fate of Sam Gamgee, I was
uncomfortable with some reactionary elements in its politics.

John Savard

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/22/2017 7:59 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

I have three of these, I have read two of them, the other is in my SBR.

I miss the Big River hyperlinks from the previous lists.

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

And also "Speculatic".

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> writes:

> Some are (I perceive) morally problematic. Others perhaps just dated. Others
> are problematic because their author, independently of the actual work of
> fiction, is a child abuser. OK, I only see one example I'm familiar with of
> that last one.

There's plenty of skeezy shit in that author's books, including (if I recall)
the one listed.

--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell
>
> Awful, awful physics.

Isn't it rapey, too?

(I haven't read it myself. Because I've heard it's rapey.)

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 22 June 2017 16:18:48 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> >> Should Have On Their Shelves
> >
> >I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".
>
> "has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
> the person you unthinkingly lent the book to."
>
>
> Someone in a wheelchair, for example, might not care for the way the
> people in The Ship Who Sang casually euthenize disabled people.

We don't have to agree with what people in
a book do.

Not a great example, perhaps, but there's that
episode of "Star Trek The Next Generation"
where they find three cryogenic medical refugees
from the twentieth century and Data decides to
revive them, and Riker goes, "Uh, why? They're
dead. Let 'em drop into that sun there."
Which shocked me. (And I think a certain bad
precedent wasn't mentioned.) When they are
revived, they turn out to be devastatingly
harmless, but rather annoying. I think the
writers literally went on strike half way
through.

Then again, since twenty-fourth century people
can even come back as a hologram if they want to
at the end of the episode, if they didn't have
an ethic that "dead means staying dead, at least
after the holofuneral" then they'd be overrun
with persistent ancestors.

[James Nicoll]

In article <slrnoko1g5...@panix1.panix.com>,

Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know how many olden time SF authors were child molesters like
>> MZB and her husband but it would be super, super easy to come up with
>> a list of 20 widely liked SF books with incredibly inappropriate
>> relationships between adult men and t(w)eens. Even if I left Heinlein
>> off.
>
>Off the top of my head, the one I first (as a kid myself) was uncomfortable
>with was *The Witches of Karres*.

As a kid, I was completely oblivious to that element of fiction.

[James Nicoll]

In article <oih2rn$8vu$2...@dont-email.me>,

Had an excessively interesting week. This was actually a back-up list.

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-06-22 09:48, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <oigf09$of9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>> Have On Their Shelves
>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>

> Well, I've at least heard of six of these, one one (I think), and have
> read none. Not even the Heinlein. (Especially not the Heinlein.)

I've heard of thirteen of the authors, if we count Rowling as the
author of a film. Ignoring film in the following paragraphs:

I've read the Heinlein and the Norton. The problematicitynessism
of FF is pretty obvious. I don't remember anything about the Norton.

I tried to read _Grunts_ once and got maybe 20-30 pages in before I
gave up. I tried to read something with "Hastur" in the title, with
the same result.

I managed to read maybe ten Cherryhs before giving up on them.

If the remainder of the list is as dreadful as the parts I know (not
including the Norton), none of the rest of the novels will make it
onto my shelves.


--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.

[James Nicoll]

In article <oih9t7$18v$1...@dont-email.me>,

Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2017-06-22 09:48, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <oigf09$of9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>>> Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>
>> Well, I've at least heard of six of these, one one (I think), and have
>> read none. Not even the Heinlein. (Especially not the Heinlein.)
>
>I've heard of thirteen of the authors, if we count Rowling as the
>author of a film. Ignoring film in the following paragraphs:
>
>I've read the Heinlein and the Norton. The problematicitynessism
>of FF is pretty obvious. I don't remember anything about the Norton.

Norton meant well but her planet of the literally magical negroes aged
badly enough that when ... was it Tor? Did the Solar Queen reprints in
the '00s, they skipped that one.

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-06-22 15:55, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <oih9t7$18v$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-06-22 09:48, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> In article <oigf09$of9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>>
>>> Well, I've at least heard of six of these, one one (I think), and have
>>> read none. Not even the Heinlein. (Especially not the Heinlein.)
>>
>> I've heard of thirteen of the authors, if we count Rowling as the
>> author of a film. Ignoring film in the following paragraphs:
>>
>> I've read the Heinlein and the Norton. The problematicitynessism
>> of FF is pretty obvious. I don't remember anything about the Norton.
>
> Norton meant well but her planet of the literally magical negroes aged
> badly enough that when ... was it Tor? Did the Solar Queen reprints in
> the '00s, they skipped that one.

Oh, wow. No memory of that at all. Unfortunately, I have found Norton
more or less unreadable for several decades now. Her books only remain
on my shelves as kind of an homage to my childhood.

However, I suppose that what you said is consistent with the title.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Soglin for governor.

[Magewolf]

Well I have read 14 of these and have heard of all the others for a
change. And really what is the point of core in the list name this time?

Cherryh is one of my favorite authors but she is not for everyone. Did
you try Merchanter's Luck? That is her easiest book to get into in my
opinion.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 1:26:27 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Not a great example, perhaps, but there's that
> episode of "Star Trek The Next Generation"
> where they find three cryogenic medical refugees
> from the twentieth century and Data decides to
> revive them, and Riker goes, "Uh, why? They're
> dead. Let 'em drop into that sun there."
> Which shocked me.

As I remember the episode, it was Captain Jean-Luc Picard who wanted to leave
well enough alone and let the dead lie.

However, a worse example is the episode "Dear Doctor" from Enterprise.

John Savard

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-06-22 16:25, Magewolf wrote:
> On 6/22/2017 4:42 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

>> I've read the Heinlein and the Norton. The problematicitynessism
>> of FF is pretty obvious. I don't remember anything about the Norton.
>>
>> I tried to read _Grunts_ once and got maybe 20-30 pages in before I
>> gave up. I tried to read something with "Hastur" in the title, with
>> the same result.
>>
>> I managed to read maybe ten Cherryhs before giving up on them.
>>
>> If the remainder of the list is as dreadful as the parts I know (not
>> including the Norton), none of the rest of the novels will make it
>> onto my shelves.

> Cherryh is one of my favorite authors but she is not for everyone.

That is quite true. I was really interested in her work based on what
I'd read about it here. I piled up a ton of her Mechanter-Union books
and started at the beginning.

Looking at my book log, it seems that "ten" was way low. I managed to
get through 24 of them. But it was a long, hard slog, every step of the
way. Kind of like Sam and Frodo's journey through the Dead Marshes and
through Mordor. Without herbs or stewed rabbit or a pretty pond.

I *really* wanted to like this stuff, which is why I kept trying.

When I finally gave up, I gave all that I had, read and unread[1], to a
friend. Like throwing the Ring into the Cracks of Doom, it felt as if a
great weight had been lifted.

> Did
> you try Merchanter's Luck? That is her easiest book to get into in my
> opinion.

That was the tenth one that I read.


[1] Well, I kept the _Cyteen_ books. I might read them again some day.
--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.

[James Nicoll]

In article <oiheg7$f6o$1...@dont-email.me>,

Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2017-06-22 16:25, Magewolf wrote:
>> On 6/22/2017 4:42 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>
>>> I've read the Heinlein and the Norton. The problematicitynessism
>>> of FF is pretty obvious. I don't remember anything about the Norton.
>>>
>>> I tried to read _Grunts_ once and got maybe 20-30 pages in before I
>>> gave up. I tried to read something with "Hastur" in the title, with
>>> the same result.
>>>
>>> I managed to read maybe ten Cherryhs before giving up on them.
>>>
>>> If the remainder of the list is as dreadful as the parts I know (not
>>> including the Norton), none of the rest of the novels will make it
>>> onto my shelves.
>
>> Cherryh is one of my favorite authors but she is not for everyone.
>
>That is quite true. I was really interested in her work based on what
>I'd read about it here. I piled up a ton of her Mechanter-Union books
>and started at the beginning.

My enjoyment of Cherryh is weirdly random. Most of the Allience/Union
stuff, the Morgaine books but not the Chanur books for no good reason
I can see or the Foreigner books. And I bounced hard off Hellburner.

[Jay E. Morris]

On 6/22/2017 02:32 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <oih2rn$8vu$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 6/22/2017 7:59 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>>> Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>>
>> I have three of these, I have read two of them, the other is in my SBR.
>>
>> I miss the Big River hyperlinks from the previous lists.
>>
>
> Had an excessively interesting week. This was actually a back-up list.
>

James has an excessively interesting week. You'd think there would be
news coverage.

[Michael Ikeda]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote in
news:oigmjr$ed3$1...@reader2.panix.com:

> In article <oigmfn$1ov$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley
>>
>>Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to
>>abuse boys dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse
>>boys. Also, Darkover is wildly, wildly reactionary.
>
> I mean, generally reactionary in SF means "people are generally
> happier when aristocrats tell them what to do," not "thank god
> we're saving the peasants from the corrupting influences of
> flush toilets and effective medicine."

Note that Heritage of Hastur is NOT dedicated to Walter Breen, it is
dedicated to Jacqueline Lichtenberg.

The sequel Sharra's Exile is dedicated to Walter Breen and Patrick
Breen.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/22/17 2:01 PM, Carl Fink wrote:
> On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know how many olden time SF authors were child molesters like
>> MZB and her husband but it would be super, super easy to come up with
>> a list of 20 widely liked SF books with incredibly inappropriate
>> relationships between adult men and t(w)eens. Even if I left Heinlein
>> off.
>
> Off the top of my head, the one I first (as a kid myself) was uncomfortable
> with was *The Witches of Karres*.
>

I found that one odd but it didn't make me uncomfortable because of the
way in which it came about and it was made clear that Goth is in no way
anything like a regular child. And they don't actually DO anything with
each other.

This is rather distinct from, say, the works of Piers Anthony.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

[James Nicoll]

In article <XnsA79CBF557EB9F...@216.151.153.41>,

The copy I was sent for review in 2006 had a dedication to Breen. I noted
it in my notes.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/22/17 3:30 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <slrnoko1g5...@panix1.panix.com>,
> Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know how many olden time SF authors were child molesters like
>>> MZB and her husband but it would be super, super easy to come up with
>>> a list of 20 widely liked SF books with incredibly inappropriate
>>> relationships between adult men and t(w)eens. Even if I left Heinlein
>>> off.
>>
>> Off the top of my head, the one I first (as a kid myself) was uncomfortable
>> with was *The Witches of Karres*.
>
> As a kid, I was completely oblivious to that element of fiction.
>

The only part of it that puzzled me was the bait-and-switch from Maleen
to Goth, but I accepted the explanation.

[David Duffy]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves

Was that "Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
Should _Not_ Have On Their Shelves"? Or are these in fact guarded
recommendations?

[Dimensional Traveler]

You can't understand what's good without knowing something about what's bad?

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <slrnoknt4p...@panix3.panix.com>,

Carl Fink <ca...@finknetwork.com> wrote:
>Others
>are problematic because their author, independently of the actual work of
>fiction, is a child abuser. OK, I only see one example I'm familiar with of
>that last one.

The book in question features an older man abusing a teenager, and then
ultimately making it up to him by adopting him as a son. When I was
a teenager myself, I didn't see that as horrifically creepy, but then
I really wasn't very sensitive to such things.

--
David Goldfarb |"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and
goldf...@gmail.com | uncertainty!"
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's
| Guide to the Galaxy_

[David Goldfarb]

In article <oih0dv$h60$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <38103cf1-6a7b-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,

>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
>>well for the LotR's reactionary theme?
>

>I don't dislike JRRT so much as my eyes slide off his books without
>purchase.

Funny, that's just what happens to me with Cherryh.

--
David Goldfarb |"For some reason, most of my clearest memories
goldf...@gmail.com |from my youth are of various traumas."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- James Nicoll

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/6/17 8:59 pm, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>

> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>

Wow! I've read a whole eight of those. Usually, I only score 2-3 on your
lists.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:29:30 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
<mor...@epsilon3.com> wrote:

>On 6/22/2017 02:32 PM, James Nicoll wrote:

[snip]

>> Had an excessively interesting week. This was actually a back-up list.

>James has an excessively interesting week. You'd think there would be
>news coverage.

I have edited your statement so that it makes sense:

James has a terribly uninteresting week. You'd think there would
be news coverage.

There.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Titus G]

Is everybody OK with James' interpretation of "Twenty"?
(Seems alright to me so far.)

I only have about 30 SF books on shelves with the rest either electronic
or returned to the library/friends/relations or reappropriated by their
owners/authorities so I would also like the record to show that it was
me who first questioned the degree of validity or insanity of James'
choice of the word "Shelves" in titles of his posts.
Thank you.

[Robert Carnegie]

I'd be worried about visitors finding some of
these on my shelves, if visitors were admitted
to the library.

[J. Clarke]

In article <03225ba2-3854-4bd4...@googlegroups.com>,
rja.ca...@excite.com says...

Why would you be worried?

[Robert Carnegie]

Well, they might read them.

And, they might think /I've/ read them.

[Scott Lurndal]

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> writes:

>
>Oh, wow. No memory of that at all. Unfortunately, I have found Norton
>more or less unreadable for several decades now. Her books only remain
>on my shelves as kind of an homage to my childhood.
>
>However, I suppose that what you said is consistent with the title.

_Witch World_ and _Galactic Derelict_ and _The Time Traders_ have held
up for me.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <oih9t7$18v$1...@dont-email.me>, michael...@gmail.com
says...

> I tried to read _Grunts_ once and got maybe 20-30 pages in before I
> gave up.

I bought _Grunts_ on recommendation, probably from this group, and I'd
like to take this opportunity to de-recommend it. Entirely apart from
the problematic bits, it's just not very good.

It starts out with a moderately interesting premise of fantasy through
the eyes of evil lord's minions (as per title), then wanders into more
general "wouldn't that stupid fantasy stuff be really stupid if it was
stupid" mire, before turning into a comedy war movie from the seventies
(as per title?). It's just a mess, basically.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <1e181d70-5836-4bef...@googlegroups.com>,
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca says...
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>
> > 13th Child by Patricia Wrede
>
> > Eliminates a genocide that ruined the fun of thrilling settler tales by
> > erasing the victims of the genocide from this history, like a book that
> > fixes the unfortunate parts of the 3rd Reich by having Moses stay in Egypt
> > so the author can focus on the cool tanks
>
> B-but... that makes it *less* problematic than all the zillions of Westerns that
> have been written. Instead of reading Westerns set in our history that glamorize
> the dispossession of the Native Americans, have virtuous stories of pioneers in
> an alternate history where they didn't commit aggression against anyone!

That makes it problematic in a different, more subtle and possibly
deeper way, by erasing the victims from history. At least the brave
pioneers fighting the devilish natives leaves the problem in clear
view, not out of sight and out of mind.

"These fictional Nazis who never genocided minorities are so cool" is
not a cool message to send.

--
Juho Julkunen

[James Nicoll]

In article <rY73B.21367$Qs1....@fx11.iad>,

As my review series showed, I think a lot of her books still have points of
interest. My faves are probably Galactic Derelict and Night of Masks.

[James Nicoll]

In article <oihnvj$e4r$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

I find it useful (and thanks to what I do, unavoidable) to be familiar with
a broad cross section of SF. Even the stuff I find offputting. Cannot discuss
it without reading it.

[Quadibloc]

Oh, yes. Such a work is still clearly in poor taste, if nothing else.

But my point is that Western novels are commonplace, and many of them endorsed
pushing the Native Americans aside. That would seem to be more problematic, and
thus distinguishing this novel as an outstandingly problematic one would at
least seem questionable.

John Savard

[Anthony Nance]

Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <oih9t7$18v$1...@dont-email.me>, michael...@gmail.com
> says...
>
>> I tried to read _Grunts_ once and got maybe 20-30 pages in before I
>> gave up.
>
> I bought _Grunts_ on recommendation, probably from this group, and I'd
> like to take this opportunity to de-recommend it. Entirely apart from
> the problematic bits, it's just not very good.
>

Agreed. It didn't rile me to the point of loathing, but it was
certainly disappointing and tedious. Sure, humor is hard to
sustain, but there also isn't enough other stuff to help.

There's probably a good, humorous 20-30 page story in there, but
to me it was basically a two-note song that lasted something like
8,000 verses:

Note 1: <typical Marines thing>, but look, it's funny because they're Orcs!
Note 2: <typical Orcs thing>, but look, it's funny because they're Marines!

Rinse, lather, repeat over and over and over....
Tony

[Anthony Nance]

David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> In article <oih0dv$h60$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <38103cf1-6a7b-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
>>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
>>>well for the LotR's reactionary theme?
>>
>>I don't dislike JRRT so much as my eyes slide off his books without
>>purchase.
>
> Funny, that's just what happens to me with Cherryh.
>

And for me, that's Norton. I almost surely started reading
her too late - my late 20s, iirc.

Tony

[David Johnston]

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 6:51:28 AM UTC-6, Juho Julkunen wrote:

The fictional Nazis who never genocided minorities are still agents of an oppressive and aggressive dictatorship. It takes more than that to rehabilitate them.

[Lynn McGuire]

My fondness for Andre Norton is the fact that her books started showing
up in supermarkets in the late 1960s through the 1970s. I was able to
usually talk Mom into a book every month or so except in 1970 and 1971
when things were really bad financially.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/22/2017 7:59 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> Have On Their Shelves
>

> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic

I am fascinated that there are no John Norman books in the list. The
first two or three John Norman books were good and then they ... diverged.

Lynn

[David Johnston]

I like her Solar Queen books and the books that are obviously set in the same or closely related continuities because because she's one science fiction author who really seems to grasp the sheer immensity of an interstellar civilization, that just one planet is a big thing and galaxies contain countless planets. Her works in that continuity are filled with casual noodle-incident references that she never feels the need to expand on and just serve to establish that her characters live in a big galaxy with lots of history and prehistory and unimaginable variety of life and complexity of politics.

Reading them I almost always have questions. "How did the Confederation become the Four Confederations? How do the Twelve Worlds relate to them? Is this before or after the Psychocrats? Were the Psychocrats behind that menagerie world? This is obviously after Warlock, so are the Throgs still a problem?" I find it endlessly involving.

[Dimensional Traveler]

I look at it as "if they're not committing mass executions/genocide of
some group, they're not Nazis". Or at least not Nazis in power, if
they're out of power they have to be telling you they want to do that to
be Nazis.

[David Johnston]

They may go beyond the category of problematic. For me the Wheel of Time books became problematic as it became apparent how very, very much the author was into humbling proud women.

[Scott Lurndal]

I dunno, I see the Aes Sedai as along the lines of a military organization
and I'm not sure the treatment of novices and accepted isn't dissimilar
to the treatment of cadets at West Point or the Naval Academy which
tries to knock the hubris out of the cadets during the first few years.

Anyone who claims that Nynaeve, Egwene or Morraine are humble wasn't reading the same books.

[Quadibloc]

If anything, I'd say the divergence happened 2/3 of the way into the
first book. It was good enough to raise hopes that something worthwhile
would come, but that never happened.

[Quadibloc]

Also, while one could count "A Princess of Mars" as core SF, one
couldn't count something derivative, such as one of Lin Carter's books as
core: and, quite apart from its problematic status, the Gor series is
squarely in that territory.

[J. Clarke]

In article <d32a837f-2d20-495b...@googlegroups.com>,

rja.ca...@excite.com says...
>
> On Friday, 23 June 2017 09:56:48 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <03225ba2-3854-4bd4...@googlegroups.com>,
> > rja.ca...@excite.com says...
> > >
> > > On Friday, 23 June 2017 01:39:22 UTC+1, David Duffy wrote:
> > > > James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
> > > > > Have On Their Shelves
> > > >
> > > > Was that "Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> > > > Should _Not_ Have On Their Shelves"? Or are these in fact guarded
> > > > recommendations?
> > >
> > > I'd be worried about visitors finding some of
> > > these on my shelves, if visitors were admitted
> > > to the library.
> >
> > Why would you be worried?
>
> Well, they might read them.
>
> And, they might think /I've/ read them.

And why do you care what they think?

[David Johnston]

The way the Aes Sedai treat their novices is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that series. There was a lot of spanking, being put on leashes, and doing domestic chores on women who hadn't been novices for a long time.

[Robert Carnegie]

Because they might /like/ them.

[Quadibloc]

The series started out with quite a bit of S/M fethishism.

However, being a competently written adventure story, as with Gor, I tried to
overlook that for a while.

Several novels into the series, however, Rand al-Thor encounters a group of
people who were suffering from brutal inequality and discrimination at the hands
of a dominant group. And we saw him musing that it was basically their fault for
putting up with it, and so there was nothing he could do for them.

At this point, I started to feel, perhaps without sufficient justification, that
the author was one of those people who think the Holocaust was the Jews' fault,
and thus I lost interest in reading his books any further.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

In article <56578077-b62a-47c5...@googlegroups.com>,
rja.ca...@excite.com says...

And this worries you because?

[Robert Carnegie]

And they're in my home.

[J. Clarke]

In article <53acc617-e298-4d42...@googlegroups.com>,

I still don't understand why this worries you? Are you saying that you
believe that you have made poor choices in friends? If so you might want
to do something about that.

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 7:13:16 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> I still don't understand why this worries you? Are you saying that you
> believe that you have made poor choices in friends? If so you might want
> to do something about that.

I wouldn't want to do anything that made my acquaintances, or friends, think
less of me. Whether by causing them to mistakenly think that I condoned child
sexual abuse, or harbored retrogressive attitudes towards women, or bigoted
attitudes towards minorities. So any books that might be leading to confusion in
this manner would be tucked away, not visibly displayed.

Of course, given my USENET history, it might be a little late for that in some
respects.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:

> The Heritage of Hastur by Marion Zimmer Bradley

> Book with major subplot about a guy who uses his position to abuse boys
> dedicated to a guy who used his position to abuse boys. Also, Darkover is
> wildly, wildly reactionary.

It turns out that Walter H. Breen's father changed his name from Green to
Breen... so he is not in any way related to Joseph I. Breen, infamous for a
completely different reason.

John Savard

[hamis...@gmail.com]

What you're ignoring is that it was explicit in the series that Rand was being driven mad by the one power.

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/6/17 11:07 am, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <oih0dv$h60$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <38103cf1-6a7b-40c4...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Considering your (iirc) dislike for Tolkien, shouldn't he be on the list as
>>> well for the LotR's reactionary theme?
>>
>> I don't dislike JRRT so much as my eyes slide off his books without
>> purchase.
>
> Funny, that's just what happens to me with Cherryh.
>

Two of my favourite authors.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Quadibloc]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 3:31:46 AM UTC-6, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:

> What you're ignoring is that it was explicit in the series that Rand was being
> driven mad by the one power.

I missed that. When I was reading it, it seemed like while his motives were
sometimes opaque to others, none the less he was doing the right things, or at
least the things that needed to be done, however shocking they were to some of
those around him.

Thus, I viewed him as being in full alignment with the author's intent.

John Savard

[hamis...@gmail.com]

HTH can you miss that?
1/2 the first book is about everybody's fear that Rand will be driven mad by the one power?

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 5:52:52 PM UTC-6, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:

> 1/2 the first book is about everybody's fear that Rand will be driven mad by the one power?

I guess it didn't seem to me that the narrative flow agreed with their concern.

John Savard

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan Should
>>Have On Their Shelves
>>

>>http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-problematic
>
> Well, I've at least heard of six of these, one one (I think), and have
> read none. Not even the Heinlein. (Especially not the Heinlein.)

I've read ten, probably eleven, maybe 12. I know I haven't read the Willis
because it's still not out in paperback, the Tepper is -not- one of the 29
I own (which I've read over 20 of). There's a lot of Cherryh I haven't read -
I never did get started on her Foreinger incomprehensible-aliens series.
The Sword Art Online book I took as a manga-based guy-trapped-inside-video-
game book, which I'd already read several of at that point; I'm not really
interested in the Rowling anymore, as I've had the setting deconstructed
mightily for me and now quite prefer one of the fanfictions. And a couple
I've heard of the author but never of that book.

> I'd love to know what's "problematic" about the rest so that I can
> decide whether to avoid them or not. I think I've read a review of
> the Tepper, but long ago and I don't remember anything about it.

Can't help with the Tepper.

The Bradley has Dyan Ardais and his predatory sexual relationship with
Danilo Syrtis, which these days has very uncomfortable echoes of things said
to have been going on in MZB's real life, plus being squicky to many people
even without that. It also has the feudal Comyn political structure, with an
upper class decided by possession of laran (psionics), and the issues that
revolve around the Keepers and their towers and celibacy, and the interactions
between Terran and darkovan cultures, etc., but those are generic to the
series. Oh, and it has the Sharra matrix/experiments in the background, with
the problems those drag in...

Naamah's Curse is ... hold on, lemme look ... okay, book two of the third
Kushiel-setting trilogy. Hmmm. must be something about the "female protagonist
has to quest to find her Missing Half to the ends of the Earth (China) because
she is not complete without him. In his arms she finds True Happiness for a
short time..." part.

White Tiger is part of a three-trilogy (plus apparently one volume that only
appeared in Australia?) series about the immortals and demons of Chinese
mythology, and a lady who gets entangled with them. (Not a spoiler, it's in
like chapter 2 or 3 of the first book that this shows up.) As with a lot of
mythology, there's some questionable and/or despicable things going on or
has-been-done, and the lady's personality and eventual transformation probably
don't help.

Grunts! [James, note exclamation point] is a book about the generic fantasy
armies ... from the Eeeevil side, the orcs. Wikipedia's summary incldes
'satirical', 'black comedy', and 'strong doses of violence and graphic
description'.

Farnham's Freehold's problematicness surfaces anytime you say the title
anywhere near a group of three or more SF fans, I think; no need for me to
elaborate here.

Touched by an Alien is the first of a long series about "Kitty" Katt, who in
the first book gets saved by an incredibly handsome hunk after kiilling a
monster with her pen, but said hunk (who reciprocates her interest) is an
alien. From Alpha Centauri. With two hearts and superspeed capability. Part of
a collection of ACans who nhave been secretly here for decades, battling said
monsters and the evil conspiracies and villains behind them. The series is, in
my opinion, a pretty good example of "if you're going to write a Mary Sue, THIS
is how you do it!". I know that James took against the first one because the
'good guys', at one point, weren't perfectly kind and chivalrous and Geneva-
Convention-following towards some captured bad guys, apparently that twigged
his suspended disbelief? I don't know if he's read any of the rest.
I see one reviewer has
" My initial reaction was less than favorable. At the time, I didn't properly
understand what I was reading, and I read the interactions between Martini and
Kitty as "Alien sexually harasses woman until she gives in to his Armani-clad
hotness and awesome sexual prowess." Another read, however, and I saw the
playful banter and lack of subtlety for what it was: people unafraid to speak
their minds and explore an instant chemistry. Say what you want about Martini
(he's unable to lie, superhumanly empathic, and possessed of a jealous streak
a mile wide) but he's a genuinely good guy at heart, and Kitty is the perfect
foil/accomplice/partner for him.
Once I'd adjusted my way of thinking, I was able to embrace the utter
ludicrously joyful nature of this series. And it's honestly good stuff. High
octane action sequences are fueled by superhuman powers and punctuated by
Michael Bay-esque explosions. The intimate moments between Kitty and Martini
maintain genuine chemistry even as they sizzle in bed. The world-building is
solid. What more can you ask for?"
in his review, so there's more than one possible problematic point here.

The Ship Who Sang is about spaceships whose guiding intelligence comes from an
encapsulated, deformed-to-the-point-of-inability-to-be-in-society, person. Who
can't be cured, have platic surgery or procedures done to help him or her
adjust and get long in society, and would be otherwise Doomed to Be in an
Institution of Life. Luckily, spaceships need xtreme-live-in pilots.

The 13th Child is set in a United States-area setting with magic, back in
frontier times... without the Indians. The Native Americans were never there
at all (and in consequence, large land mammals of various types didn't go
extinct shortly after they arrived, either). I'll note that even Orson Scott
Card had the Indians in his similar setting, though his problematic issues
are too large for this margin.

I liked all of the above, some greatly, well, not really FF but the others, and
would and have reread some of them. But I can be Oblivious to problematic
points when caught up in a narrative, so I am a bad representative of the
literarily correct, here.

I don't remember what Tea With the Black Dragon might have had wrong with it,
and don't actually remember whether I've read Voodoo Planet at all but I think
its title may give a big hint for its issues. The Tepper I don't know as such,
not having read it, but it's quite probably at least related to issues folks
have with some of her other works - this was the one where females live in
cities and males roam barbarianically outside them, isn't it? {checks} Yes,
plus a healthy serving of Ecotopia live-with-the-land-ness and a version or
two of feminism.

Dave, hope this helpeth
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
> Some are (I perceive) morally problematic. Others perhaps just dated. Others
> are problematic because their author, independently of the actual work of
> fiction, is a child abuser. OK, I only see one example I'm familiar with of
> that last one.

The Heritage of Hastur has the issue, quite independent (or so some might like
to think, I guess) of its author's life story, that there's a predatory child-
sexual-abusing character _in the story_, and it's one of the lesser plot
points. The boy he's abusing (and is later seen to apologize for doing so,
you can assign whatever degree of actual repentance you like) ends up as the
boyfriend of Regis Hastur, the heir to the leadership of the Comyn, and turns
out to have an incredibly rare and valuable telepathic gift as well, so it's an
-important- lesser plot point, even.

Dave

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Naamah's Curse by Jacqueline Carey
>
> This is the one where it turns out the high caste lady can do love magic but
> the low caste one only lust.

Fair enough; I haven't re-read it in a while.

> White Tiger by Kylie Chan
>
> Mighty Whitey.

Thoyugh to be a little fair, she's an Australian Whitey, and AU is much more
integrated/close to Hong Kong society than a lot of the whiteys.

> Tea with a Black Dragon by R. A. MacAvoy
>
> Mighty whitey.

Huh. Another "too long ago for anything but faint impressions" for me, but
even so this rings a bell.

> The Ship Who Sang by Anne McCaffrey
>
> Ableism, of the 'of course, we euthanize the ones who cannot be made into
> useful cyborgs' variety.

<winces> Forgot about that last part.

> (to be honest, "the Jews never leave Egypt" is still better than one AH
> I read, where Eurasia east of WWII era Germany was filled with actual,
> flesh-eating monsters)

For some value of 'filled with', the Vampire: the Masquerade setting had the
Tzimisce clan of vamps headquartered there and spread through the area. As
flesh-sculpting, usually without bothering to ask permission first, moral
monsters that mostly follow a different analog of the Humanity scale, I'd
say this fits that description sort of well.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:

> I honestly don't feel that's fair. In the broader Darkover series, it
> becomes clear that the aristocracy is only *relatively* benevolent and at
> least one story hinges on the non-nobles resenting the psi-using class, and
> there's a period of fairly radical "leveling" in Darkovan history.

... this is the same history that had the Ages of Chaos psionic wars that were
so bad that, ever after, "no use of weapons that reach further than the hand"
was ingrained into the culture, right? So, not the worst part of it.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> Note that Heritage of Hastur is NOT dedicated to Walter Breen, it is
> dedicated to Jacqueline Lichtenberg.

... and if you want a problematic-issues-displayed-for-all-to-see series,
what better candidate than the Sime/Gen novels she wrote, along with Jean
Lorrah?

Dave, we could also get into Sharon R. Green...

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-06-22, Jay E. Morris <mor...@epsilon3.com> wrote:
> On 6/22/2017 02:32 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Had an excessively interesting week. This was actually a back-up list.
>
> James has an excessively interesting week. You'd think there would be
> news coverage.

Obviously, whatever it was got classified.

Dave, I'm told Lenoir City, here in TN, had an earthquake Sunday at 6am...

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 11:18:48 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:

> >On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> >> Should Have On Their Shelves
> >

> >I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".
>
> "has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
> the person you unthinkingly lent the book to." [snip]

I see. I suspect that, given the variety of things that different people
may dislike (sex, violence, gore, etc), it would be hard to compile a
general purpose list. As they say in Arda, one orc's meat is another
elf's poison.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 22 June 2017 16:23:14 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:

> On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:18:48 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> > >On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > >> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> > >> Should Have On Their Shelves
> > >
> > >I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".
> >
> > "has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
> > the person you unthinkingly lent the book to."
> >
> >

> > Someone in a wheelchair, for example, might not care for the way the
> > people in The Ship Who Sang casually euthenize disabled people.
> >
>
> Others might not care for the implication that they are avoiding preventing certain conditions with an imgact on fetal and infant development because they don't want to end up with a shortage of Brains.

I don't remember that. I do seem to remember,
but may not, that the story specified that a lot
can be and is done in the setting to allow most people born with these severe natural disadvantages
to live a satisfying life - in the present day
I'm aware of resistance to /correcting/ disabilities
instead of making the world accept them (say,
from left-handedness up?) and I think there was
a sense of that...

Ship Brains, IIRC, are semi-immortal, compared
to ordinary people. Do I recall that she gets
the last laugh on a bad Brawn by outliving him...

And the question of abortion. Do Anne McCaffrey
characters ever go there? At all? One suicide
comes to mind...

Right now, Charlie Gard is a British infant with
terminal illness whose doctors have been made
to defend in court, over and over again, their
own judgement that to prolong his painful life
is not in his interest. It isn't about the money
either. There is an "experimental treatment"
in America but the British doctors don't believe
in it. And what they can do isn't good enough.

Elsewhere and elsewhen, it /is/ about the money.

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 12:49:17 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> There is an "experimental treatment"
> in America but the British doctors don't believe
> in it.

That's not an excuse for preventing his parents from trying it.

One remembers how in the 1960s, the British National Health system had doctors
*choose* which patients would receive kidney dialysis. Instead of the government
automatically providing as much funding as required to provide it for every
patient who needed it.

This kind of... insincere attempt... at a publicly funded health system helped
those who worked to prevent the United States from adopting a national medical
insurance plan.

John Savard

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 4:49:17 AM UTC+10, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Thursday, 22 June 2017 16:23:14 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:18:48 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > In article <8b55b110-0798-4bd9...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> > > >On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:59:56 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > >> Twenty Core Problematic Speculatic Fiction Works Every True SF Fan
> > > >> Should Have On Their Shelves
> > > >
> > > >I guess the next step is to define "Problematic".
> > >
> > > "has issues that could potentially lead to an awkward conversation with
> > > the person you unthinkingly lent the book to."
> > >
> > >
> > > Someone in a wheelchair, for example, might not care for the way the
> > > people in The Ship Who Sang casually euthenize disabled people.
> > >
> >
> > Others might not care for the implication that they are avoiding preventing certain conditions with an imgact on fetal and infant development because they don't want to end up with a shortage of Brains.
>
> I don't remember that. I do seem to remember,
> but may not, that the story specified that a lot
> can be and is done in the setting to allow most people born with these severe natural disadvantages
> to live a satisfying life - in the present day
> I'm aware of resistance to /correcting/ disabilities
> instead of making the world accept them (say,
> from left-handedness up?) and I think there was
> a sense of that...
>
> Ship Brains, IIRC, are semi-immortal, compared
> to ordinary people.

I remember mention of a ship that's around 400...

> Do I recall that she gets
> the last laugh on a bad Brawn by outliving him...

Nope, the bad brawn gets kicked off.
The books she appears in don't go on long enough for anybody to die of old age as I recall it.

>
> And the question of abortion. Do Anne McCaffrey
> characters ever go there?

iirc in Dragonquest Kylara thinks that she's mastered the trick to ensure that she won't have any more kids. It involves staying in between for a little bit longer.