Article: Musings on Publishing

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Having now made it through my own self-publishing saga as well as
having multiple books published the traditional way, I figured I would
gather my thoughts on the two approaches. I'm probably not going to say
anything that others haven't said, but maybe it'll be said differently
enough to make it interesting!

The TL;DR version: Trad publishing is a great gig, IF (big if) you can
get it, as long as you're cool with someone else running the show.
Self-publishing, YOU run the show – but that word "RUN" is what you'll
be doing, as in "run yourself ragged".

*Traditional Publishing*
Of the two approaches, there is no doubt that traditional publishing is
the easiest. In simplest terms, I send my publisher a finished
manuscript, the publisher sends me money (for the turn-in fee), sometime
later they send me the proofs and I check them, and then they publish
the book. I don't have to do anything else.

Of course, one obvious limitation of this approach is that you, the
author, can't actually just choose to go this route. Traditional
publishers have their own standards and interests, and you have to
convince them that your stuff exceeds these standards and will meet
their interests. If they've never heard of you before, that's gonna be a
hard sell, usually. So in a sense, the "choice" between traditional and
self-publication is a misnomer; sure, to an extent I, or any other
established traditional author, can make that choice, by deciding to not
offer something to my regular publisher and just self-pubbing, but the
vast majority of would-be authors can't reasonably just look at it as a
simple choice.

This is one of the primary reasons for the growth of self-publishing;
not only is traditional publishing an uncertain option, it's also one
that – in general – takes a long time to reach, even if it turns out
that you can and do get the attention and acceptance of a traditional
publishing house.

On the other hand, a proper traditional publishing house (for fiction –
rules are somewhat different in nonfiction areas, and my comments are of
course most germane to genre fiction specifically) offers you a lot of
advantages.

First and foremost is the advance; a real traditional publisher
recognizes that once they're taking your manuscript, they are purchasing
"first rights" (NOTE: More on "rights" in general at the end of this
article). You can never get First Rights back, so traditional publishers
do, and should, provide you with an appropriate amount of money that
both reflects those rights, and the fact that, in the cold hard light of
day, they're betting specifically on YOU as a potential moneymaker.

This is THEIR bet; YOU are offering your manuscript and rights, so they
do not, and should never, be asking you for money for any part of the
publishing process. "Yog's Law: Money flows FROM the Publisher, TO the
Author, and NEVER the other way around." Reread that carefully: if your
publisher EVER asks you for money (rather than simply suggesting, say,
that going to Convention X would be a good idea), they're not acting as
a traditional publisher.

Second, and no less important, is the work that a trad house does. They
provide *everything*. I didn't have to look for a cover artist, or
negotiate their fees; I didn't have to sort through people who might be
decent editors, proofreaders, typesetters, etc. That's all done by the
publisher.

Third are the CONTACTS the publisher provides. One of the true
challenges for a self-publishing author is publicity and distribution;
how do you get your stuff in front of people who care? Even in today's
market, a traditional publisher's reach is vastly greater than most
people appreciate. Even the simple minimum they will do for most
first-time authors – a press release in a couple of the trade journals,
a presentation to book buyers, etc. – is publicity that you as an author
simply could not buy, and if you COULD would be something that would
cost you ten thousand dollars or more. Your book ends up in many, if not
most, bookstores across the country, and is seen by hundreds of key
people in the trade. Never, EVER underestimate this, as I will show you
later.

The major limitation of the traditional publishing route (aside from
the "can I convince them to take me at all?" issue) is control. Control
comes in a lot of forms; the ones most likely to be noticeable to an
author are editorial and presentation control

While an author can – and most of us do, at one point or another – say
"no" to the publisher's editorial requests, it is generally an unwise
thing to do most of the time, for two reasons, one good, one possibly
not. The good reason is… well, you NEED editors to find the stuff you
aren't doing as well as you should. They provide editors, and a GOOD
editor is worth their weight in pure platinum. If they make suggestions
to you, most of the time it's because they think you aren't telling your
story as well as you think, at least in some area. Speaking as someone
with (as of May 5th) 11 trad published books under his belt, all of
those books have benefited more or less greatly from editorial advice,
and if I had rejected that advice, the books would not have been as good
as they are.

The possibly-ungood reason you don't want to refuse too many editorial
requests from a publisher is that the publisher may well decide at that
point that they don't want to publish your book. This isn't a decision
they'll generally make lightly, I should note – reversing such a
decision is almost as much a PITA for them as it is for you – but they
can and will do it on occasion. As an author, this does mean ceding a
certain amount of control over your manuscript, and you may not entirely
agree with it at times; there are a few such incidents in just about any
published author's history.

Presentation includes the selection of cover artist and the subject of
the cover painting, the precise layout of the cover, formats of the book
for release (ebook only, trade paper, etc.), internal layout and
typesetting, and so on. You have, as an author, NO say in these
whatsoever with most traditional publishers. With luck, you MAY be
allowed to have contact with the cover artist, but you have no authority
over the artist or their choices; at best, you are able to call
attention to events or elements of the novel that you think are
particularly cover-worthy, but you have no actual control over it. The
basic rule of thumb is that the TEXT of the book belongs to you, but
everything else outside of that text is the publisher's,

This means that the look and feel of the final product is, in fact,
pretty much completely out of your hands. You don't have to do hardly
any work, but you'll also have hardly any control over it once the work
starts; you have to just wait and hope the result lives up to your
expectations.

Length may also be a constraint. A typical genre publisher won't
usually take a manuscript from a new author that's less than 80,000
words, or more than about 120,000 words, unless it REALLY grabs their
interest. The numbers are somewhat lower for YA novels. This means that
"novels" that meet the technical definition of 40,000 words, up to
around 70,000 words, and those well over 120,000 words, are going to be
very hard to sell. That can mean that you'll be asked to cut your
manuscript down, or puff it up, neither of which is necessarily much fun
for the author.

There is also the issue of time. From the time that your final
manuscript is accepted by the publisher to the time the book hits the
shelves is an average of about one year. For some people, that seems
like a devil of a long time, and – in some ways – it is, while in some
ways, it isn't. You'll see why as we go to the next section…

*Self-Publishing*
Here, control reigns supreme. You, the author, control every aspect of
your book, big, small, fancy, simple, electronic, physical – it's all up
to you, and these days there are a number of convenient, reputable firms
and resources to provide you with all the tools you need to get the job
done, whatever way you want to do it.

This control of course extends to the choice to publish at all. Unlike
traditional publishing houses, there's no one and nothing to stop you
from publishing anything you want, in any way you want. You think your
book's ready for prime-time? Then go for it, because there's no one to
tell you different!

Of course, that's also one of self-publishing's greatest pitfalls.
Anyone can put up their magnum opus even if it's never been edited, or
even proofread for spelling errors, in its existence. (No, running it
through MS Word's Spellcheck is NOT a substitute for real proofreading).
Unfortunately, most people cannot effectively edit and proof their own
work – I am tempted to say ALL, but I am an optimist and willing to
assume there are a few paragons out there who can manage to approach
their own work with a completely detached frame of mind and releasing
all of their own assumptions.

Unfortunately, this brings us immediately to one of self-publishing's
greatest limitations: money. Trad publishing pays you up front;
self-publishing, done anything like right, COSTS you money – and comes
with absolutely NO guarantee that you will ever see any of that money
come back. It's VERY important, when starting on a self-publishing
venture, to remember that those shining examples of success in
self-publishing that everyone mentions are the same as the Stephen Kings
and J.K. Rowlings of the world; far, far outliers whose performance
should never be used as an example for what you should expect. Even in
traditional publishing, there's a lot of risk; the old joke is "How do
you make a small fortune in publishing? Start with a large fortune."

If you want to self-publish WELL – make a professional-looking product
with reasonably professional production values – you'll need at least an
editor, a proofreader, a cover artist, and someone who can do both
interior and exterior layout of the book.

If you happen to be someone with experience in these fields, great – at
least some of it you can do yourself, for free (aside from your TIME,
which, for most of us, is far from "free". More on that later.)

But most of us authors know how to write stories, and not so much the
other stuff; even if we know how to edit, we can't edit our OWN stuff.
The principle there is very much the same as for law: "The lawyer who
represents himself has a fool for a client". Similarly, the person who
edits themselves is not likely to be doing themselves a favor.

A professional editor will not be cheap. A 100,000 word novel will cost
hundreds or even thousands of dollars to edit properly, depending on the
editor, the complexity of the edit, and how much the editor's willing to
cut you a break. To a considerable extent, you'll get what you pay for.
There ARE inexpensive, yet very good, editors out there, but they're
very rare, highly sought after, and unless you already know them and are
on their lists, you'll have a hard time finding them or getting on their
schedules – and even the "inexpensive" ones will be in the hundreds of
dollars.

The same is true of professional copyeditors/proofreaders. Note that
"copyediting" is NOT the same as substantiative editing. The latter
refers to examinations of the book as a work – seeing how well the story
flows, noticing errors of logic or presentation that damage the story,
and advising you on ways to fix apparent flaws in the story. The former
has to do with the mechanics of writing – checking grammar, references,
and so on.

In general, you want the different types of editing done by different
people also, although some people can manage to do both.

Cover art is one of the most difficult areas. It is of course possible,
these days, to create your own cover from available stock images using
Photoshop; of course, it's also quite true that most authors aren't much
in the art department, and the covers that they, or their best friend
Ray who's really good at making Tumblr memes, make are pretty obviously
not professional-grade.

Sometimes it is possible to find pro-grade work for amateur prices;
DeviantArt and similar sites are areas where aspiring artists show off
what they can do and often are willing to do commissions for reasonable,
or even ridiculously low, prices. However, it's still something of a
crapshoot, and professionally I am averse to underpaying people for
professional work. I wouldn't want someone asking ME to do my writing
for a tenth of what it's worth, so I probably shouldn't be going around
asking artists to give me a $500 painting for $50, either.

An experienced cover artist in your chosen field – one with a solid
reputation and knowledge of the kind of imagery used – is not going to
be cheap. For one thing, making a cover painting is, in and of itself, a
skill that takes considerable time to develop. You can't just approach
it like a regular painting, because you know that (A) it's possible that
only PART of your painting will make it onto the cover, and (B) the
dimensions and ratios of the cover may be different from book to book,
so different parts of your painting may be used by different people, or
even by the same person for different editions of the same book; the
latter is the case for my own Polychrome, as the "real estate" available
for the large-size hardcover is significantly different both in size and
aspect ratio from that available on the trade paperback format.

Add to this specific skill the general skill and talent you, the
author, will want, and it's obvious that such people will be applying an
awful lot of experience and expertise to giving you the painting you ask
for. For well-known artists, that's going to be very expensive. Such
people will be asking – and getting – four figures for their work. Note
that in those cases, you're getting the right to use the image, but not
the actual painting, which the artist retains. If you wanted the actual
original as well, that's gonna cost you.

Once the editing, proofing, and artwork are complete, you still need to
do layout and publishing prep – formatting the book for actual
publication. Once more, this is something that a few authors may be good
at, but most people aren't – and it's one of those deceptively simple
tasks that can turn out to be frustratingly impossible to do well if you
don't understand it. That will, once more, be another few hundred
dollars to get done RIGHT.

Then – and only then – are you pretty much ready to publish your book.

In theory, self-publishing is much faster, especially if you're not
planning on doing a physical release. In practice? Well, I'd originally
planned on releasing Polychrome in November, or seven months after the
Kickstarter funded. In reality, it released in April 2015, almost
precisely one year after the Kickstarter concluded.

It so happens that this is just about exactly how long it usually takes
from the time you hand in a manuscript to the publisher, and the time
that the book is officially released.

It is true that some of this delay could be traced to the time it took
my cover to be completed… but in a more realistic view of the world,
almost any part of the process can be stalled by weeks to months, and –
in all likelihood – at least one such part will be. In my case it was
the cover painting, but in another it might be the editing and proofing,
or layout.

Now, if you choose to forego some of those steps, you can of course
speed up the process. If I'd been willing to just stuff Polychrome's
Word file into KDP for conversion, I could've published the book in a
couple of weeks – grab a public-domain image related to Oz and
Polychrome and do a quick edit into a cover pic, as I did for the
Kickstarter video, do my best at layout and a quick proofing pass, and
then upload it.

But then it would not be either visually, or textually, nearly the book
it has become. Quality costs money, and – in the long run – I think it
will eventually win out, on average, over expedience. I do know that in
part I was driven by a determination to make sure that the resulting
book was fully equal, both in appearance and in care of production, to
those produced by Baen; I wanted to be able to place Polychrome on the
same shelf and never have any question that it belonged there. But at
the same time, it's purely pride of workmanship. If your novel was worth
so many hours of your time and thought to produce, it's worth a few more
hours, and a few more dollars, to make sure it's presented right.

Again, this all takes TIME. And time – for most of us – is a very
precious commodity. The traditional publishing approach takes very
little of my time away from the main job of WRITING. I spend a little
time consulting with cover artists; a day or three going over galleys; a
little time writing blurbs. But other than that, I just write stuff and
send it in. The work of self-publishing takes TIME in one way or
another, or – if you have it – you can sometimes substitute money for
your time by paying someone else to do the work. But it will ALWAYS
demand more time from you than the traditional method, and for people
like me – with a full time job and a family – time's a rare and precious
commodity. This is true for a lot of other authors as well.

There is of course one other aspect of self-publication I haven't
touched on: promotion and marketing. As I said, even the most basic
effort by a regular traditional publisher is the equivalent of extremely
expensive marketing, and Polychrome is already proving that. I had
neither time, nor money, nor – to be honest – the knowledge to properly
promote Polychrome. It has sold, roughly, 1/30th as many copies in first
week release as any of my regular releases. I am a not completely
unknown author, with double-digits of books released, yet this brand-new
novel is selling more than an order of magnitude fewer copies than ANY
of my other books on release.

NEVER underestimate the power of even the most indifferent traditional
publisher's publicity.

If you're going down the self-publishing route, you will need to learn
a lot of promotion skills… or just rely on sheer luck, which you'll need
a lot of. Exactly what tactics would be best for marketing and promo…
those I can't discuss, because I really don't know.

One more aspect of control deserves a short but specifically separate
discussion: RIGHTS.

In traditional publishing, you sign a publishing contract with the
publisher. The primary rights involved are, of course, First Publication
rights, but most publishing houses will be trying to include as many
other rights as they can. Some of those are sensible – for instance, the
right to put out both print AND e-book format versions of your book.
Other than that, read your contract carefully and decide what rights
you're willing to concede to them, and in exchange for what; for
instance, a contract may say that they will take "dramatic" rights
(i.e., TV and Movie rights) but that if those rights result in anything
you will get half.

Let me repeat this: READ YOUR CONTRACT. If you find you don't
understand it, find someone, preferably a lawyer, who DOES understand
the contract, and make sure that what you are getting is what you THINK
you are getting, and that you're not giving away anything you're not
comfortable with.

If you're a new author, you may think you can't argue any terms of the
contract. Well… it's true that arguing TOO much could easily sour the
deal and make the publisher pack up and leave. But the fact that you
really really really WANT to get published should NOT be a lever to
force you to accept a bad bargain. Don't sell yourself short.

Now, with that said, the fact is that most of those other rights aren't
likely to be WORTH much; most of us will never get movie deals, have
video games made of our stuff, or whatever. Just make sure there's a
provision for you to get money out of the bargain in case any of them
amount to something!

You might think that self-publishing evades all these issues, and to a
certain extent, under the right conditions, you'd be correct. If you go
to the right vendors, and choose the right options, all the rights
remain vested in you; you'll just sit back and let the money roll
in^H^H^H^H^H trickle slowly.

HOWEVER, there are a lot – and I mean a lot – of outfits and divisions
of other companies which may claim to be assisting self-publishers, and
which will try to obtain more or less control over your work. Be very
cautious doing business with any outside groups that you don't know –
and research any of them, even those you think you know. Even large
established traditional publishers have unfortunately attempted to take
advantage of the self-publishing wave by a number of rather underhanded
means; one of the best sites to check if you are ever unsure is
Preditors and Editors (http://pred-ed.com/). And always remember the
basic business dictum: "if it sounds too good to be true… it probably
isn't true."

With all of this, I think the differences between both approaches, and
the advantages and disadvantages of both approaches, should be pretty
clear. I'm glad, now, to have done both, and I may do one or two more
self-publishing projects… but I remain incredibly happy that most of my
books are traditionally published, and will save me that long and
difficult slog to the finish line!



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 6/16/2015 4:20 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
> Having now made it through my own self-publishing saga as well as
> having multiple books published the traditional way, I figured I would
> gather my thoughts on the two approaches. I'm probably not going to say
> anything that others haven't said, but maybe it'll be said differently
> enough to make it interesting!
>

It was an interesting read, thank you.


--
Veni, vidi, snarki.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/16/2015 6:20 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
> Having now made it through my own self-publishing saga as well as having multiple books published the traditional way, I figured
> I would gather my thoughts on the two approaches. I'm probably not going to say anything that others haven't said, but maybe it'll be
> said differently enough to make it interesting!

Nice article, there are many of the same issues in the software world. We have self published our software package since 1969 and
have made every mistake in the book.

Lynn

[Ahasuerus]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 7:20:05 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
[snip]

> Of course, one obvious limitation of this approach is that you, the
> author, can't actually just choose to go this route. Traditional
> publishers have their own standards and interests, and you have to
> convince them that your stuff exceeds these standards and will meet
> their interests. If they've never heard of you before, that's gonna be a
> hard sell, usually. So in a sense, the "choice" between traditional and
> self-publication is a misnomer; sure, to an extent I, or any other
> established traditional author, can make that choice, by deciding to not
> offer something to my regular publisher and just self-pubbing, but the
> vast majority of would-be authors can't reasonably just look at it as a

> simple choice. [snip]

Let me just add that traditional publishers used to provide another,
extremely valuable service to new writers: tell them that their work
was not ready for prime time and that they needed to get better before
they could inflict their immortal words on an unsuspecting world.

Anyway, in the end there is only one universally applicable yardstick
-- money. There are many steps that need to be taken before the right
customer has the right product at the right price point: writing,
editing, art, design, marketing, project management, investment, etc.
There are lots of different ways to get each one done. Different
entities and individuals can sell different tiers of these services
for different amounts of money. And if you DIY some of the steps, then,
as Ryk explained, time is also money, so it may or may not be cheaper
than outsourcing each step to a professional organization that has
lots of experience/economies of scale on its side.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/17/15 1:41 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 7:20:05 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> [snip]
>> Of course, one obvious limitation of this approach is that you, the
>> author, can't actually just choose to go this route. Traditional
>> publishers have their own standards and interests, and you have to
>> convince them that your stuff exceeds these standards and will meet
>> their interests. If they've never heard of you before, that's gonna be a
>> hard sell, usually. So in a sense, the "choice" between traditional and
>> self-publication is a misnomer; sure, to an extent I, or any other
>> established traditional author, can make that choice, by deciding to not
>> offer something to my regular publisher and just self-pubbing, but the
>> vast majority of would-be authors can't reasonably just look at it as a
>> simple choice. [snip]
>
> Let me just add that traditional publishers used to provide another,
> extremely valuable service to new writers: tell them that their work
> was not ready for prime time and that they needed to get better before
> they could inflict their immortal words on an unsuspecting world.

Used to? That's still one of their primary functions and they still
serve it -- both in general (they reject the vast majority of
submissions) and in fine (telling us authors when they might like to
change their work to make it better through their editors).

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mlsu00$807$1...@dont-email.me:

The difference being, even if every publisher on the planet has
rejected you, these days, you can self publish on Amazon and blame
a vast conspriacy for your drek not selling.

BTW, last time I looked, Polychrome was outselling the alien gay
bondage dinosaur porn, so there's that.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Ahasuerus]

On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 6:58:25 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

wrote:
> On 6/17/15 1:41 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 7:20:05 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
> > Spoor) wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> Of course, one obvious limitation of this approach is that you, the
> >> author, can't actually just choose to go this route. Traditional
> >> publishers have their own standards and interests, and you have to
> >> convince them that your stuff exceeds these standards and will meet
> >> their interests. If they've never heard of you before, that's gonna be a
> >> hard sell, usually. So in a sense, the "choice" between traditional and
> >> self-publication is a misnomer; sure, to an extent I, or any other
> >> established traditional author, can make that choice, by deciding to not
> >> offer something to my regular publisher and just self-pubbing, but the
> >> vast majority of would-be authors can't reasonably just look at it as a
> >> simple choice. [snip]
> >
> > Let me just add that traditional publishers used to provide another,
> > extremely valuable service to new writers: tell them that their work
> > was not ready for prime time and that they needed to get better before
> > they could inflict their immortal words on an unsuspecting world.
>
> Used to? That's still one of their primary functions and they still
> serve it -- both in general (they reject the vast majority of
> submissions) and in fine (telling us authors when they might like to
> change their work to make it better through their editors).

Well, yes, but aspiring authors who can't clear the bar have another
choice now -- forget about traditional publishing and self-publish
instead. For better or for worse.

[Lynn McGuire]

There is also the option to print your books yourself in lots of 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? and sell them from your website and Amazon:
http://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/

At least one of the books that I bought from him (on Amazon) was in its eleventh printing and was not a POD book.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Admirable!



--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

How come everyone else seems to know about the bondage dinosaur porn
and not Polychrome, then? Because AFAICT Poly's basically stopped selling.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Which simply shows why there WILL always be trad publishers -- for
those of us who really don't have the time to apply Sturgeon's Filter
two or three times rather than once.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Yeah, if you've got the money and ability to sell stuff like that. I
don't. Which is why I need the traditional publishers. I didn't LOSE
money on Polychrome, because the Kickstarter supported everything that
had to be done, but it didn't make me even as much as the advance I got
for Paradigms Lost, which was my smallest ever (hey, it was basically a
bulked-up re-issue of my first book, so not surprising).

[Cryptoengineer]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in

news:mlt9k0$1ur$1...@dont-email.me:

I just now tried to get it on my Kindle app. I can't buy it - I can
put it on my wish list, or download a free sample. But I can't buy
the book.

pt

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 21:49:37 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<treif...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just now tried to get it on my Kindle app. I can't buy it - I can
>put it on my wish list, or download a free sample. But I can't buy
>the book.

Huh. As far as I can tell without actually buying (which I don't want
to do since I've already got it), it's available.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Moriarty]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 2:38:42 PM UTC+10, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 21:49:37 -0500, Cryptoengineer
> <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I just now tried to get it on my Kindle app. I can't buy it - I can
> >put it on my wish list, or download a free sample. But I can't buy
> >the book.
>
> Huh. As far as I can tell without actually buying (which I don't want
> to do since I've already got it), it's available.

And I hadn't actually got around to buying it yet so just I went to Amazon and purchased the Kindle edition with one click for $5. All fine.

-Moriarty

[leif...@dimnakorr.com]

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, last time I looked, Polychrome was outselling the alien gay
> bondage dinosaur porn, so there's that.
>

How do you group that? Alien (gay bondage dinosaur porn) or
(alien gay bondage dinosaur) porn?

If the former, then I'm _really_ amazed at Amazon's market
penetration.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Greg Goss]

Um, that ain't an amazon he's penetrating.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Strange. People HAVE been buying it successfully, and -- as one can see
on Amazon -- even reviewing it.

Do you only use Kindle? If not it IS available on iBooks and Smashwords.

Give it another try in a day or so and if you still can't download it,
email me (seawasp at sgeinc dot com) and I'll send you a Kindle-version
copy.

[pete...@gmail.com]

Kindle is my go-to e-reading platform (with Moon Reader Pro on Android for
some formats). When I tried last night, I was using the Kindle app on an iPad.

I'll try another route tonight.

pt

[hamis...@gmail.com]

I've checked and the buy button appears o.k. on the website for an Australia browser...

[Michael R N Dolbear]

pete...@gmail.com<pete...@gmail.com> wrote

> > I just now tried to get it on my Kindle app. I can't buy it - I can
> > put it on my wish list, or download a free sample. But I can't buy
> > the book.
>
> Strange. People HAVE been buying it successfully, and -- as one can see
> on Amazon -- even reviewing it.
>
> Do you only use Kindle? If not it IS available on iBooks and Smashwords.
>
> Give it another try in a day or so and if you still can't download it,
> email me (seawasp at sgeinc dot com) and I'll send you a Kindle-version
> copy.

.> Kindle is my go-to e-reading platform (with Moon Reader Pro on Android

for
some formats). When I tried last night, I was using the Kindle app on an
iPad.

.> I'll try another route tonight.


As I understand it you /can't/ buy using the Kindle app on an iPad, you have
to use the browser.

Apple wanted a cut of app sales and were told what to do.


-- --
Mike D

[pete...@gmail.com]

The greed and arrogance of large corporations knows few bounds.

I had no trouble purchasing it on the Android Kindle app.

pt

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in

news:mlt9k0$1ur$1...@dont-email.me:

I agree it's a crime against humanity, or at least against
literature. However, were it me, I believe I'd prefer to be unknown
to being known as well as the alien gay bondage dinosaur porn guy -
and still not outselling the unknown. So it could be worse.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mlt9lc$1ur$2...@dont-email.me:

The continued existence of tranditional publishers depends rather
more on the continued existence of the market than it does on the
contiued availability of manuscripts.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote in
news:PJydnUfabc6n_B_I...@giganews.com:

He said "penetration." Heh.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-18, leif...@dimnakorr.com <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> BTW, last time I looked, Polychrome was outselling the alien gay
>> bondage dinosaur porn, so there's that.
>
> How do you group that? Alien (gay bondage dinosaur porn) or
> (alien gay bondage dinosaur) porn?

Well, usually I'd ask over at Making Light, the experts on dinosaur sodomy
writing, but I think it actually parses as [alien {gay bondage} dinosaur]

porn?

> If the former, then I'm _really_ amazed at Amazon's market penetration.

i c wut u did thar
wiping off the
prose bukkake now

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Ahasuerus]

On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 10:17:33 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/17/15 7:16 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:

[snip-snip]

> > Well, yes, but aspiring authors who can't clear the bar have another
> > choice now -- forget about traditional publishing and self-publish
> > instead. For better or for worse.
>
> Which simply shows why there WILL always be trad publishers -- for
> those of us who really don't have the time to apply Sturgeon's Filter
> two or three times rather than once.

It's a valuable service, but it's only one of many services provided
by traditional publishers. Given 21st century technology, there are
many different ways to mix and match them, with traditional publishing
representing one end of the spectrum and self-publishing the other. We
are just beginning to explore other permutations.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:MrydnZnHtZFYnR7I...@earthlink.com:

> On 2015-06-18, leif...@dimnakorr.com <leif...@dimnakorr.com>
> wrote:
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> BTW, last time I looked, Polychrome was outselling the alien
>>> gay bondage dinosaur porn, so there's that.
>>
>> How do you group that? Alien (gay bondage dinosaur porn) or
>> (alien gay bondage dinosaur) porn?
>
> Well, usually I'd ask over at Making Light, the experts on
> dinosaur sodomy writing, but I think it actually parses as
> [alien {gay bondage} dinosaur] porn?
>

Honestly, I have no idea how it parses. I'm only going by the
descriptions I've seen.

>> If the former, then I'm _really_ amazed at Amazon's market
>> penetration.
>
> i c wut u did thar
> wiping off the
> prose bukkake now
>

As they used to say in alt.peeves, the FAQ is all over you.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <a545c863-82bd-4a5b...@googlegroups.com>,

Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 10:17:33 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 6/17/15 7:16 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>[snip-snip]
>> > Well, yes, but aspiring authors who can't clear the bar have another
>> > choice now -- forget about traditional publishing and self-publish
>> > instead. For better or for worse.
>>
>> Which simply shows why there WILL always be trad publishers -- for
>> those of us who really don't have the time to apply Sturgeon's Filter
>> two or three times rather than once.
>
>It's a valuable service, but it's only one of many services provided
>by traditional publishers.

MARKETING.

Which is why I've never contemplated self-publishing, no one
would ever hear about it.

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <a545c863-82bd-4a5b...@googlegroups.com>,
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 10:17:33 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 6/17/15 7:16 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> >[snip-snip]
> >> > Well, yes, but aspiring authors who can't clear the bar have another
> >> > choice now -- forget about traditional publishing and self-publish
> >> > instead. For better or for worse.
> >>
> >> Which simply shows why there WILL always be trad publishers -- for
> >> those of us who really don't have the time to apply Sturgeon's Filter
> >> two or three times rather than once.
> >
> >It's a valuable service, but it's only one of many services provided

> >by traditional publishers. [snip]

>
> MARKETING.
>
> Which is why I've never contemplated self-publishing, no one
> would ever hear about it.

Well, the fact that many people make a living self-publishing suggests
that there are ways to overcome this hurdle. For example, take Peter
Grant, a link to whose blog started a recent thread. He writes that he
makes a living "selling a few tens of thousands of books per year".
(http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-tom-doherty-of-tor.html)
His e-books sell for $2.99-$3.99
(http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Grant/e/B00CS8MHJE/) and he presumably gets
70% of each sale (https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A30F3VI2TH1FR8)
(BTW, note that traditional publishers apparently pay 25% of the net
receipts or around 17% of the cover price -- see
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2014/08/10/a-brief-list-of-standard-answers-for-the-amazonhachette-thing/
and http://janefriedman.com/2015/02/05/walk-away-good-big-5-publishers/)
So, assuming 25,000 e-books sold per year and a net profit of $2.50 per
e-book, we end up with $62K/year.

Of course, there are also costs associated with self-publishing and they
can vary significantly. To use Harry Bingham (link above), who is roughly
in the same league as Peter Grant, as an example, he spent $2,000 to
self-publish a recent thriller:

"That sum includes cover design, editorial work, manuscript conversion
and some marketing activity -- primarily an author blog tour and a paid
Kirkus review. I know there's debate in the indie community as to
whether it makes sense to pay $425 for a Kirkus review, but the
investment has come good for me. Kirkus described the book as
"exceptional" and gave me some very quotable quotes."

$2K per book is not bad if you are going to make $62K selling, to use
Peter Grant's example, 7 books published over the last couple of
years. And Grant's books are far from the top of the Kindle sales
charts (_Forge a New Battle_ is #2,855, _Take the Star Road_ is #12,173,
_Stand Against The Storm_ is #10,525.)

Of course, all of the above is uninformed speculation by an outsider
whose only connection to the self-publishing world is that his wrists
are hurting from entering e-books into ISFDB, but it's something to
think about.

[Lynn McGuire]

I own all of Peter Grant's books in Trade Paperback. They are all POD (print on demand). One would hope that he is making $4 to $5
each for the $12 price on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Take-Star-Road-Maxwell-Saga/dp/0615824935/

Space Opera Rules!

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <23f02d57-e9cf-40e1...@googlegroups.com>,

I couldn't. I could probably market somebody else's books (I
even took a course in it once), but not my own.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>

>>> MARKETING.
>>>
>
>Space Opera Rules!

I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
was done* and I don't have to explain it.

But I still couldn't market it.

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 6:45:02 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[snip-snip]

> I could probably market somebody else's books (I even took a
> course in it once), but not my own.

Hm. Perhaps you could market books by Katherine Blake then?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <537074f5-9e9d-4cda...@googlegroups.com>,

Considering that her one novel never earned out its advance,
probably not. The name has negative market value.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MARKETING.
>>>>
>>
>> Space Opera Rules!
>
> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>
> But I still couldn't market it.

Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
the atmosphere.

Venus just needs enough snowballs to drop the surface temperature from 900 F to whatever you want it to be.

Once the book is finished, you need Hoyt and Scalzi to put it on their blogs. Good luck with that.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mlvnim$4id$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> MARKETING.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Space Opera Rules!
>>
>> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>>
>> But I still couldn't market it.
>
>Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at
>it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>the atmosphere.
>
>Venus just needs enough snowballs to drop the surface temperature from
>900 F to whatever you want it to be.

Um ... that may or may not be what was back in the legendary old
days Before the Interregnum. I'm not going there.

>Once the book is finished, you need Hoyt and Scalzi to put it on their
>blogs. Good luck with that.

Heh.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <nq5w5...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MARKETING.
>>>>
>>
>>Space Opera Rules!
>
>I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>
>But I still couldn't market it.
>
>--

You just did!
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Kevrob]

I have forsaken any hope of seeing S M Stirling's third "Lords of Creation"
novel. I need something to fill that gap.

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cuheq7...@mid.individual.net>,

What, to the dozen or so people who still read rasf-w?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <619e2ae7-5997-49b8...@googlegroups.com>,

Well.... if God spares, I'll finish the thing sometime (I'm
maybe halfway through), and if you want a copy I can send you
one.

(Don't hold your breath.)

[J. Clarke]

In article <mlvnim$4id$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...

>
> On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >> On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> MARKETING.
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Space Opera Rules!
> >
> > I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
> > the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
> > terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
> > was done* and I don't have to explain it.
> >
> > But I still couldn't market it.
>
> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
> the atmosphere.

You really think that enough "snowballs" to raise the atmospheric
pressure to an adequate level wouldn't do that by itself?

> Venus just needs enough snowballs to drop the surface temperature from 900 F to whatever you want it to be.

How would that work?

You might want to google "kinetic energy".

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"Dorothy J Heydt" wrote

> I couldn't. I could probably market somebody else's books (I
> even took a course in it once), but not my own.

The obvious solution is a co-operative (like BookView Cafe ?)

You sell somebody else's books, they sell yours.

--
Mike D

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> MARKETING.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Space Opera Rules!
>>
>> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>>
>> But I still couldn't market it.
>
>Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>the atmosphere.

Easy? Bunch? Cough.

[lal_truckee]

On 6/19/15 7:01 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:

>> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>> the atmosphere.
>
> Easy? Bunch? Cough.

Lynn has an amusing relationship with science.

[lal_truckee]

On 6/18/15 3:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
> was done* and I don't have to explain it.

As long as you don't stumble into magic and swords, I'm in.

[Greg Goss]

"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <mlvnim$4id$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...
>> On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>> > I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>> > the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>> > terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>> > was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>> >
>> > But I still couldn't market it.
>>
>> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>> the atmosphere.
>
>You really think that enough "snowballs" to raise the atmospheric
>pressure to an adequate level wouldn't do that by itself?

A heat pulse fades away. That's a different thing than a steady-state
temperature. Though running nukes for heat seems like the wrong
approach. I would expect some kind of tailored hydrocarbon as a
greenhouse gas. Or is Mars too far out for a "perfect greenhouse" to
produce an acceptable temperature?

>> Venus just needs enough snowballs to drop the surface temperature from 900 F to whatever you want it to be.
>
>How would that work?
>
>You might want to google "kinetic energy".

I'm not sure what he has in mind here. It sounds like he's using a
negative heat pulse, so your critique would be valid. Again, neither
the kinetic energy of arrival nor the cold of the snowball would last
very long. To terraform Venus, you do need the water, but not for
temperature control. For temperature control, you need to metabolize
the carbon dioxide to a solid form and park it on (or eventually
under) the ground.

--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[lal_truckee]

On 6/18/15 8:08 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> What, to the dozen or so people who still read rasf-w?

I've always assumed there were thousands of lurkers hanging on our every
bon mot...

[pete...@gmail.com]

Though it hardly captures all lurkers, the Google Groups interface
show both how many posts are in a thread, and how many times the thread
has been viewed (through GG). Its rare for a thread to have a view:post
ratio of more then 3:1, and total views per thread max out in the low
hundreds. Typical is 20-40, which is probably the number of people
following the group in GG.

Note that the 'view' count is everytime anyone opens the thread - one
person can be counted multiple times.

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 11:27:11 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <mlvnim$4id$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...
> >> On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> >> > I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
> >> > the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
> >> > terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
> >> > was done* and I don't have to explain it.
> >> >
> >> > But I still couldn't market it.
> >>
> >> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
> >> the atmosphere.
> >
> >You really think that enough "snowballs" to raise the atmospheric
> >pressure to an adequate level wouldn't do that by itself?
>
> A heat pulse fades away. That's a different thing than a steady-state
> temperature. Though running nukes for heat seems like the wrong
> approach. I would expect some kind of tailored hydrocarbon as a
> greenhouse gas. Or is Mars too far out for a "perfect greenhouse" to
> produce an acceptable temperature?

There are numerous strategies listed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

If we could get all the CO2 in the icecaps to sublimate, you could walk
around on much of Mars in warm clothing and an oxygen mask. At that point,
you could also get oxygen-producing plants started in some places.

Getting the pressure, temperature, and oxygen up to near Earth
levels would be a lot harder.

> >> Venus just needs enough snowballs to drop the surface temperature from 900 F to whatever you want it to be.
> >
> >How would that work?
> >
> >You might want to google "kinetic energy".
>
> I'm not sure what he has in mind here. It sounds like he's using a
> negative heat pulse, so your critique would be valid. Again, neither
> the kinetic energy of arrival nor the cold of the snowball would last
> very long. To terraform Venus, you do need the water, but not for
> temperature control. For temperature control, you need to metabolize
> the carbon dioxide to a solid form and park it on (or eventually
> under) the ground.

Terraforming Venus is a lot harder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus

If we could transfer a lot of Venus' atmosphere to Mars, we could kill
two birds with one stone.

pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cuiqmb...@mid.individual.net>,

All this is why I'm saying the terraforming happened long long
ago in the time of legends Before the Interregnum. It's pure
handwavium.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mm1ce9$7dl$1...@dont-email.me>,

Do they support you in email?

http://onlinemanship.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lurkers_Support_Me_In_Email

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mm1c6u$6kg$1...@dont-email.me>,

No magic, no swords. A *little* bit of rather bizarre ESP, and
FTL hinted at here and there and taken off the mantelpiece in the
last chapter.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <be665422-cfb5-4e68...@googlegroups.com>,

I seriously doubt that kind of handwavium was used back in the
time of legends.

[Scott Lurndal]

Since Mars has no substantial intrinsic magnetic field,
it would lose any atmosphere it gained eventually.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/russell/papers/mars_mag/

[pete...@gmail.com]

That's true. But 'eventually' can be a very long time, and if we can put
an atmosphere there, we can top it up.

It's thought that even the Moon could hold a breathable atmosphere for
tens of thousands of years.

pt

[Lynn McGuire]

My memory is bad but isn't that the way that Kim Stanley Robinson terraformed Mars in his _Green Mars_ book?
http://www.amazon.com/Green-Mars-Trilogy-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0553572393/

Terraforming Mars is relatively easy compared to terraforming Venus. And yes, successfully executing the Mars terraforming would be
the greatest engineering achievement of mankind.

BTW, there are 5,000+ known comets in the Solar System.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Comet

Lynn

[lal_truckee]

On 6/19/15 8:26 AM, Greg Goss wrote:

> A heat pulse fades away.

That comment is on a par with the infamous Kim Stanley Robinson windmills.

[William Vetter]

I don't think that's true. It doesn't count _me_ more than once.

[pete...@gmail.com]

This bears investigation, but I cant do it now.

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

Tried anyway. Went down to one of the dead 'thrinaxadon' threads, with 7
views. Opened, went back to list, refreshed - 8 views. Did it again - 9 views.
Did it again - 9 views.

Odd.

pt

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>On 6/19/2015 9:01 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>>> On 6/18/2015 5:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <mlvbgs$pis$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/18/2015 3:38 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MARKETING.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Space Opera Rules!
>>>>
>>>> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>>>> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>>>> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>>>> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>>>>
>>>> But I still couldn't market it.
>>>
>>> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>>> the atmosphere.
>>
>> Easy? Bunch? Cough.
>
>My memory is bad but isn't that the way that Kim Stanley Robinson terraformed Mars in his _Green Mars_ book?
> http://www.amazon.com/Green-Mars-Trilogy-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0553572393/
>

Are you perhaps confusing fiction with reality?

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>In article <mm1c6u$6kg$1...@dont-email.me>,
>lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 6/18/15 3:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>>> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>>> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>>> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>>
>>As long as you don't stumble into magic and swords, I'm in.
>
>No magic, no swords. A *little* bit of rather bizarre ESP, and
>FTL hinted at here and there and taken off the mantelpiece in the
>last chapter.

Since we're assuming a lot of lost technology, a lot of the handwavium
would be helped with a "gate" linking Venus and Mars, with an acid
wind blowing through it for a rather long period.

[David Johnston]

On 6/19/2015 10:48 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 6/19/15 7:01 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> writes:
>>
>>>> Mars is easy to terraform. Just throw a bunch of snowballs (comets) at it. And then setup a bunch of nuclear reactors to heat up
>>>> the atmosphere.
>>>
>>> Easy? Bunch? Cough.
>>
>> Lynn has an amusing relationship with science.
>
> Since Mars has no substantial intrinsic magnetic field,
> it would lose any atmosphere it gained eventually.
>

Which would actually fit in nicely with a pulp "dying Mars" setting.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote in
news:mm2257$qnb$3...@dont-email.me:

Would? Has. Many times.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cujg3n...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <mm1c6u$6kg$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>On 6/18/15 3:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into
>>>> the future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
>>>> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it
>>>> was done* and I don't have to explain it.
>>>
>>>As long as you don't stumble into magic and swords, I'm in.
>>
>>No magic, no swords. A *little* bit of rather bizarre ESP, and
>>FTL hinted at here and there and taken off the mantelpiece in the
>>last chapter.
>
>Since we're assuming a lot of lost technology, a lot of the handwavium
>would be helped with a "gate" linking Venus and Mars

Uh, no. Save that one for somebody else's story.

with an acid
>wind blowing through it for a rather long period.

Nope, not that either.

[J. Clarke]

In article <mm1lpe$d88$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...

The mass of all of which combined looks to be slightly less than the
present mass of the Martian atmosphere. You're going to need a source
of gases other than comets.

[David Johnston]

There are plenty of oort cloud objects that never become comets.

[Lynn McGuire]

Bummer. Are you fairly sure of your calculations?

I cannot remember how many comets Kim Stanley Robinson used in his book. One would think that he checked out his calculations to a
couple of digits.

So, that means grabbing all the comets in the Solar System plus some very long trips to the outer solar system according to:
"However, this represents only a tiny fraction of the total potential comet population, as the reservoir of comet-like bodies in the
outer Solar System (in the Oort cloud) is estimated to be one trillion."
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Comet

So, terraforming Mars will be greatest engineering project of all time. Until one terraforms Venus. Or builds a Dyson Sphere around
the Sun.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <MPG.2fee653b4...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Well, depends on how far out into the Oort cloud you go.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:05:47 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <mm1ce9$7dl$1...@dont-email.me>,
>lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 6/18/15 8:08 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> What, to the dozen or so people who still read rasf-w?
>>
>>I've always assumed there were thousands of lurkers hanging on our every
>>bon mot...
>
>Do they support you in email?

No, their weight pulls him down.

>http://onlinemanship.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lurkers_Support_Me_In_Email

Good stuff.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[J. Clarke]

In article <mm278d$g64$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...

Reasonably. I assumed all 5000 were the mass of Halley, which I
understand is on the large end as comets go.

> I cannot remember how many comets Kim Stanley Robinson used in his book. One would think that he checked out his calculations to a
> couple of digits.
>
> So, that means grabbing all the comets in the Solar System plus some very long trips to the outer solar system according to:
> "However, this represents only a tiny fraction of the total potential comet population, as the reservoir of comet-like bodies in the
> outer Solar System (in the Oort cloud) is estimated to be one trillion."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Comet

Which makes for a very expensive proposition. You're also fitting
propulsion to all of those and waiting decades to millennia for their
arrival.

Probably be more cost effective to just build O'Neill colonies.

[J. Clarke]

In article <nq7vz...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...

My point really was that "5000+ comets" sounds impressive until you
consider how tiny comets are compared to even the atmospheres of
planets.

[Kevrob]

..and "Magnetic Masters of Mars" is alliterative and properly ERBish.

Kevin R

[Greg Goss]

Steal Europa and its relatives.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <a78704fa-5d32-42f2...@googlegroups.com>,

In the webcomic (now finished) _A Miracle of Science_, Mars is
not only terraformed to the point of inhabitability, its
inhavitants have a group mind, and the heroine's father (whom we
meet only briefly) is working on getting Mars its magnetic field
back, to help keep in the atmosphere. I haven't the time to
search for the relevant page, but here's the link to the title
page:

http://project-apollo.net/mos/

Good story, artwork not so much, science kind of iffy, but a fun
read.

[Kevrob]

Thanks, Dorothy!

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

What about the Sunfish?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Frozen-Sky-A-Novel/dp/1936460149/

Lynn

[William December Starr]

In article <nq5w5...@kithrup.com>,

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:

> I'm writing a space opera right now, set sufficiently far into the
> future that Mars has canals and Venus has swamps *and the
> terraforming was done so long ago that nobody remembers how it was
> done* and I don't have to explain it.

You still have a ways to go top Alastair Reynolds in TERMINAL WORLD,
where

SPOILER ABOUT SETTING AND BACKGROUND, BUT NOT ABOUT PLOT

spoiler space...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...

...the humans living on a far-future terraformed Mars had
lost/forgotten so much of their past that they thought the
planet they were living on was Earth.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <cuiqmb...@mid.individual.net>,
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> said:

> To terraform Venus, you do need the water, but not for
> temperature control. For temperature control, you need to
> metabolize the carbon dioxide to a solid form and park it on
> (or eventually under) the ground.

Or you could take the "Spaceballs" approach and just use a giant
vacuum cleaner on it.

-- wds

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mm9rp3$e1e$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Heh. My Martians (descendants of human colonists, of course)
never got that far. After the Reunion, the Terrans found the
Martians much stranger than the Martians did them.

[C. E. Gee]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 4:20:05 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Having now made it through my own self-publishing saga as well as
> having multiple books published the traditional way, I figured I would
> gather my thoughts on the two approaches.
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.livejournal.com


Many thanx concerning your post. The info. presented was most helpful to me.

Though I doubt I'll ever write a novel, I've had enough short stories published to make a collection possible. I initially thought I'd approach Amazon about doing a Kindle edition.

But after reading your post, maybe I'll contact some other publishers.

Again, many thanx.

NAMASTE

C.E. Gee aka Chuck

http://wwww.kinzuakid.blogspot.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/27/15 11:46 AM, C. E. Gee wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 4:20:05 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> Having now made it through my own self-publishing saga as well as
>> having multiple books published the traditional way, I figured I would
>> gather my thoughts on the two approaches.
>> Sea Wasp
>> /^\
>> ;;;
>> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
>> http://seawasp.livejournal.com
>
>
> Many thanx concerning your post. The info. presented was most helpful to me.

You're welcome!

>
> Though I doubt I'll ever write a novel, I've had enough short stories published to make a collection possible. I initially thought I'd approach Amazon about doing a Kindle edition.
>
> But after reading your post, maybe I'll contact some other publishers.

It can't hurt. Worst that happens is they say no, so then you go to
Amazon anyway. Win-win!





--

[John F. Eldredge]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 06:36:04 -0700, petertrei wrote:

> Kindle is my go-to e-reading platform (with Moon Reader Pro on Android
> for some formats). When I tried last night, I was using the Kindle app
> on an iPad.
>
> I'll try another route tonight.

Note that the Kindle Store, like other Internet sites, has occasional
glitches. It is possible that it was temporarily unavailable due to a
problem which has now been fixed.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 00:38:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

> leif...@dimnakorr.com wrote:
>
>>Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, last time I looked, Polychrome was outselling the alien gay
>>> bondage dinosaur porn, so there's that.
>>>
>>>
>>How do you group that? Alien (gay bondage dinosaur porn) or (alien gay
>>bondage dinosaur) porn?
>>
>>If the former, then I'm _really_ amazed at Amazon's market penetration.
>
> Um, that ain't an amazon he's penetrating.

Rule 34 applies. Both of the above are probably available somewhere on
the web, although I have no intention of searching for them.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:17:31 -0400, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 6/17/15 7:16 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 6:58:25 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor)
>> wrote:
>>> On 6/17/15 1:41 PM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 7:20:05 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>>>> Spoor) wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> Of course, one obvious limitation of this approach is that you, the
>>>>> author, can't actually just choose to go this route. Traditional
>>>>> publishers have their own standards and interests, and you have to
>>>>> convince them that your stuff exceeds these standards and will meet
>>>>> their interests. If they've never heard of you before, that's gonna
>>>>> be a hard sell, usually. So in a sense, the "choice" between
>>>>> traditional and self-publication is a misnomer; sure, to an extent
>>>>> I, or any other established traditional author, can make that
>>>>> choice, by deciding to not offer something to my regular publisher
>>>>> and just self-pubbing, but the vast majority of would-be authors
>>>>> can't reasonably just look at it as a simple choice. [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Let me just add that traditional publishers used to provide another,
>>>> extremely valuable service to new writers: tell them that their work
>>>> was not ready for prime time and that they needed to get better
>>>> before they could inflict their immortal words on an unsuspecting
>>>> world.
>>>
>>> Used to? That's still one of their primary functions and they still
>>> serve it -- both in general (they reject the vast majority of
>>> submissions) and in fine (telling us authors when they might like to
>>> change their work to make it better through their editors).
>>
>> Well, yes, but aspiring authors who can't clear the bar have another
>> choice now -- forget about traditional publishing and self-publish
>> instead. For better or for worse.
>>
>>
> Which simply shows why there WILL always be trad publishers -- for
> those of us who really don't have the time to apply Sturgeon's Filter
> two or three times rather than once.

Just two or three times? You're an optimist.

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <mlp0mk$gef$1...@dont-email.me>,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Sometimes it is possible to find pro-grade work for amateur prices;

though if you're doing steampunk or homages to Doc Smith,
you want retro-grade work.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com