_The Door into Summer_ by Robert A. Heinlein

[Lynn McGuire]

_The Door into Summer_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Door-into-Summer-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0451085744/

A standalone story, no prequel, no sequel. I read a well used MMPB
version that was printed in 1982. The original book appears to have
been published in 1956.

I am not sure if I ever read this particular Heinlein before. I lost
most of my Heinlein books in The Great Flood of '89 so I just do not
know. I do not remember it whatsoever though.

I really enjoyed the book with the various combinations of time travel.
I had never really thought about "cold sleep" being a time travel
method. Heinlein postulated that people would not age during cold
sleep. If I remember correctly, this hypothesis has been disproven.
There has actually been a movie about it, "Forever Young", where the
person came out of cold sleep the same age but aged rapidly.
https://www.amazon.com/Forever-Young-Mel-Gibson/dp/B0045LPTLK/

Unfortunately, the book is sadly dated. Heinlein's predictions of the
year 2000 are not very good. He did predict the Roomba though. One
thing that he did predict well in the book is the automation of common
home and business tasks which is accelerating even now.

Some people have professed a certain amount of squickiness with the
book. The main character of age 31 knows a young girl from her age of 6
to 11 and then marries her when he is 32 ??? and she is 21. But both
used cold sleep to achieve those ages. This plot device does not bother
me in the slightest.

My rating: 5 out of 5 stars (kept me up last night !)
Amazon rating: 4.5 out of 5 stars (391 reviews)

Lynn

[Kevrob]

He also predicted a version of CAD/CAM: a drafting machine,
"Drafting Dan."

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

Yes, I included that into the general category of home and business
automation.

Heinlein also predicted driverless trucks which has yet to be proven. I
don't think that driverless trucks will ever happen due to safety
issues. The driverless trucks in the recent "Logan" movie certainly had
some serious issues in my opinion.

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 10 August 2017 22:28:49 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> _The Door into Summer_ by Robert A. Heinlein
> https://www.amazon.com/Door-into-Summer-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0451085744/
>
> A standalone story, no prequel, no sequel. I read a well used MMPB
> version that was printed in 1982. The original book appears to have
> been published in 1956.
>
> I am not sure if I ever read this particular Heinlein before. I lost
> most of my Heinlein books in The Great Flood of '89 so I just do not
> know. I do not remember it whatsoever though.
>
> I really enjoyed the book with the various combinations of time travel.
> I had never really thought about "cold sleep" being a time travel
> method. Heinlein postulated that people would not age during cold
> sleep. If I remember correctly, this hypothesis has been disproven.
> There has actually been a movie about it, "Forever Young", where the
> person came out of cold sleep the same age but aged rapidly.
> https://www.amazon.com/Forever-Young-Mel-Gibson/dp/B0045LPTLK/

O...kay, (1) that wasn't peer-reviewed and
(2) I freeze sandwiches for convenience of
taking them to work without pausing to make
sandwiches in the morning - also, using
discounted sandwich filling that was about
to be out of date - and it does not, um, age
as quickly after de-freezing as Mel Gibson did.

On the other hand, it's a frequent thing in science
fiction and fantasy - specifically visual forms like
movies - that when your life-extension apparatus
breaks, be it alembic or amulet, you very quickly
turn as old "physically" as you are in birthdays.
It's a very striking image, although just now I
can't think of other examples. Well. It happened
a couple of times to Captain America (the Second
World War one), who got accidentally frozen until
the Age of the Transistor.

[J. Clarke]

In article <omim3r$t2f$1...@dont-email.me>, lynnmc...@gmail.com says...

Liability perhaps, but it is likely that any decent robotic truck will be
safer than one driven by a human. The fact is that humans as a group are
not very good drivers.

In any case, there are some big companies putting big money into making
this happen, so it appears that they disagree with you.

> The driverless trucks in the recent "Logan" movie certainly had
> some serious issues in my opinion.

Since they weren't real, what is their relevance?
>
> Lynn

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <omim3r$t2f$1...@dont-email.me>, lynnmc...@gmail.com says...
>

> Heinlein also predicted driverless trucks which has yet to be proven. I
> don't think that driverless trucks will ever happen due to safety
> issues.

"Never" is a pretty bold prediction.

I'll also be bold: we'll see self-driving trucks sooner rather than
later, at least for some uses. And I mean the next decade, if not this
one.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Lynn McGuire]

The driverless trucks in the "Logan" movie had avoidance issues with
horses loose on the freeway.

Lynn

[D B Davis]

_Door_ is my favorite SF story. It has a cat. There's a nostalgic factor
with the Southern California setting for me. My alumni is UC Boulder.
The story offers time travel.

The psycho-biotches from my past could give Belle Darkin a run for the
money. The dirty dealing male associates from my past could give Miles
Gentry a run for the money.

The story pretty much fires on all cylinders for me. That's why my
usenet nom de plume comes from the protagonist of the story.

Men may be hyper-sensitized to squickiness these days. My wife read
_Door_, enjoyed it, and didn't notice the squick until we talked about
the story later. And even then it didn't phase her.

A similar sort of squickiness appears in _The Time Traveler's Wife_
(Niffenegger). In _Traveler's Wife_ their marriage eventually hits the
doldrums. So the wife blames the traveler for grooming her to become his
wife. Because the wife's first encounter with the traveler occurs when
she is six and he is middle-aged.

Then she remembers that she also groomed the traveler during his first
encounter with her. His first encounter occurs when he's twenty-eight
and she's twenty. So they both equally share any blame because they both
groomed the younger, relatively virgin, significant other.

It's interesting how the traveler's older then the wife for both of
the initial encounters. It may indicate that's the way that women, or
at least Niffenegger, like it.

Thank you,

--
Don

[Lynn McGuire]

There was a conversation here about this book a few weeks ago where
someone mentioned their squickiness.

Lynn

[David Johnston]

Well it is slight. Not as bad as, say, purity balls.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <omit7l$f3t$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>There was a conversation here about this book a few weeks ago where
>someone mentioned their squickiness.

There have been many conversations here about the squickiness or
non- of this book. One poster took a different view, pointing
out that if she *hadn't* taken cold-sleep and married Dan, she
would probably have remained in Brawley (in the mid-20th-century
a "don't blink or you'll miss it" spot 8in the road, and lived a
grungy, dead-end life.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

[D B Davis]

Here's some more movies that use the ashes-to-ashes SFX:

_Phantom of the Paradise_
Beef: Man, you better get yourself a castrato for this, 'cause
it's a little out of my range.
Swan: Something bothering you, Beef?
Beef: Swan, this was scored for a chick. I'm not doing it
in drag.
Swan: You can sing it better than any bitch.
Beef: You don't know how right you are, Goliath.

ROTFLMAO...

_Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_

_Twilight Zone_ "Long Live Walter Jameson"

The dusting of formerly immortal vampires:

_Fright Night_

_Interview with the Vampire_

Thank you,

--
Don

[lal_truckee]

On 8/10/17 4:38 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> The driverless trucks in the recent "Logan" movie certainly had
>> some serious issues in my opinion.

The issue has been common in the genre for decades. 1944's "Killdozer"
(Theodore Sturgeon) or 1971's "Duel" by Richard Matheson" cover the same
territory from a more malevelent position.
Failure need not be benign, nor need it be singular.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

Fortunately manually driven vehicles never have accidents...

[J. Clarke]

In article <omiqih$8s4$1...@dont-email.me>, lynnmc...@gmail.com says...

So?

They were imaginary trucks and imaginary horses on imaginary freeways.
Their behavior has a great deal of relation to what the director wanted to
show and but any relation to the behavior of real robotic trucks is purely
coincidental.

[J. Clarke]

In article <omj119$o7o$1...@dont-email.me>, lal_t...@yahoo.com says...

However Killdozer does not depict a robotic device. It depicts a sentient
nonmaterial entity controlling dumb mechanical device.

[J. Clarke]

In article <MPG.33f71700c...@news.kolumbus.fi>,
giao...@hotmail.com says...

You can see them now if you want to go to Australia or Chile.
<http://newatlas.com/komatsu-autonomous-truck-mining/45627/>
<http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-18/rio-tinto-opens-worlds-first-
automated-mine/6863814>

[J. Clarke]

In article <2017...@crcomp.net>, g...@crcomp.net says...

One of the classics was the Ursula Andress "She".

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <omj119$o7o$1...@dont-email.me>,

The truck in "Duel" was not driverless, at least not in the movie version.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Scott Lurndal]

It's a fucking movie, written by scientific illiterates.

[Scott Lurndal]

http://www.dw.com/en/daimler-launches-self-drive-trucks-on-public-roads-in-nevada/a-18430979

[Scott Lurndal]

D B Davis <g...@crcomp.net> writes:
>

>Men may be hyper-sensitized to squickiness these days. My wife read
>_Door_, enjoyed it, and didn't notice the squick until we talked about
>the story later. And even then it didn't phase her.

Shirley, you mean faze?

[Richard Hershberger]

I had no squick reaction when I read and re-read it back in the day, but I was young and stupid and not prone to noticing that sort of thing. When I re-read it a couple of years ago I found the squick factor sphincter-clenching.

But apart from the squick factor, my other reaction was that the time travel part was a giant idiot plot. They invent a time machine. But it has a problem: the object you send through it may go either forward or backward in time. Which it goes is random, uncontrollable, and unpredictable. "Well, pooh" they say. "This obviously has no practical application." So they put it on the shelf and forget about it. Huh? I repeat: Huh??? Seriously?

Also, the hint about Leonardo da Vinci was just too twee. I thought that even back in the day.

Richard R. Heshberger

[Peter Trei]

I'm fairly confident we'll see driverless trucks on rural interstates within
ten years, maybe 5. It's a much easier environment; few or no non-motorized
moving objects, much simpler behavior to deal with, and breakdown lanes are
available.

The economic arguments are compelling; by eliminating the driver, you don't
need to pay him/her (and there's a national shortage of truck drivers), you can
run the truck 24/7, instead of needing downtime after a 10 hour shift, and
you can run 18 wheelers at 40 miles an hour, the sweet spot for mpg for those
vehicles. The lower speed vs the longer run means you get to the destination
in about the same time, and the availability of breakdown lanes means there's
a way for the truck to safely bail out if conditions deteriorate beyond the
parameters of its AI.

pt

[Kevrob]

You can have a driver sleep in a berth in the cab between cities,
and have the human take control when in the metro area. You pay
him half-rate when he's sleeping, and the company doesn't have to
idle the truck. Or, you have the vehicle pull into a pre-arranged
rendezvous point as it approaches congested areas, and pick up a
local driver, the way ships pick up pilots when entering a harbor.

Kevin R

[Peter Trei]

The latter is very much the way I see it operating - unmanned on interstates
in flyover country, but with a human driver when on urban or local roads.
I expect that the trucks will have constant data communications with the
HQ, perhaps including cab video and limited teleoperation.

The Teamsters would NOT be happy. Another issue would be security, though if
the trucks are in near-constant motion, they're hard to hijack.

pt


pt

[P. Taine]

If it had, would she have transitioned to liquid or gas?

[D B Davis]

Yes, you are correct. During yesterday's mental deliberation on which
faze/phase phrase was apropos, my third eye erroneously transposed
"feeze" into "freeze" within the Merriam-Webster definition that appears
at the top of the google search on "faze her":

https://www.google.com/search?q="faze+her"+"" About 129,000 results

Freeze seemed awkward at that time. So a more popular google phrase was
used instead:

https://www.google.com/search?q="phase+her"+"" About 138,000 results

Granted, it's sloppy. ;0) OTOH it's also usenet. So Shirley yet another
drop of slop is not worth a hill of beans. ROTFLMAO.

Thank you,

--
Don

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ubjrocdafp5og8c08...@4ax.com>,

P. Taine <us...@domaine.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 23:43:03 -0000 (UTC), D B Davis <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Men may be hyper-sensitized to squickiness these days. My wife read
>>_Door_, enjoyed it, and didn't notice the squick until we talked about
>>the story later. And even then it didn't phase her.
>
>If it had, would she have transitioned to liquid or gas?

On the other hand, in Cherryh's Compact stories (_Pride of
Chanur_ and following), the stsho Phase (with a capital P),
changing gender and personality, either when it's time or as a
response to stress, situational or aesthetic.

[David Johnston]

Well pushing or violating sexual taboos was Heinlein's thing in his middle period. That one was a comparatively mild example.

[D B Davis]

My wife's body composition consists mostly of liquid water at all times.
If _Door_ had actually induced a phase change, a microscopic portion of
that liquid would've froze. Just enough to make it chilly.

Thank you,

--
Don

[Dimensional Traveler]

The constant data communications is already in operation with many
companies. They may or may not have the cab video (and may or may not
be telling the drivers if they do) but I'm pretty sure they don't have
teleoperation capability, yet.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <9a0b42ae-6f31-4eda...@googlegroups.com>,

Yes, he got worse in his later period.

There's a conversation in McKenna's "Casey Agonistes" in which
two old men, sailors in their youth and now dying in a nursing
home, are reminiscing. One says (I'm paraphrasing from memory; I
don't have a copy of the story), "I remember now, back in '23 I
could've gone to bed with [woman's name] and I didn't; now I wish
I had. You ever have any regrets like that?"

The other man says, "Sure, I remember I could've beat up [man's
name] in '25 in Singapore, only I didn't."

"You just now think of that?"

"Hell, now, I thought of it the next day, but he'd sailed."

"You wait. You'll think of it one of these days."

That's my analysis of late Heinlein. He got invalided out of the
Navy when he was fairly young. If he had contemplated doing any
helling around in foreign ports, he didn't get as many
opportunities, and later, in his elder age (particularly after
that circulatory problem), he may have been remembering with
advantages what he would've done if he'd only could've.

Returning to the current topic:

Ray Bradbury wrote a story once, whose title escapes me, about a
young man who finds his true soul mate ... and she's about
ninety-five and dying, and all they can hope for is
reincarnation.

Dan found his soul mate when she was much too young for him to
think of her as an actual mate. In a different plot, with
cold-sleep but without the machinations of Belle and what's-
his-name and without time travel, he could've just taken
cold-sleep for a decade or so till they were the right age for
each other.

But that would've been a different story, with a lot less time
travel.

[Scott Lurndal]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <9a0b42ae-6f31-4eda...@googlegroups.com>,
>David Johnston <davidjohnst...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Well pushing or violating sexual taboos was Heinlein's thing in his
>>middle period. That one was a comparatively mild example.
>
>Yes, he got worse in his later period.
>

Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
married his first cousin (13)?

[Peter Trei]

The amount and variety of incest in 'To Sail Beyond the Sunset'
would raise an eyebrow in either period.

Rot-13 for spoilers - the text is from Wikipedia:

"Gur nqiragherf bs Znherra vapyhqr n frevrf bs frkhny rapbhagref, ortvaavat va puvyqubbq jurerva, univat whfg unq ure svefg frkhny vagrepbhefr, vf rknzvarq ol ure sngure, n qbpgbe, naq svaqf urefrys qrfvevat uvz frkhnyyl. Ure fgbel gura rapbzcnffrf inevbhf oblf, ure uhfonaq, zvavfgref, bgure jbzra'f uhfonaqf, oblsevraqf, fjvatvat frffvbaf, naq gur nqhyg Ynmnehf Ybat/Gurbqber Oebafba. Nqqvgvbanyyl, fur pbagvahrf n yvsrybat chefhvg bs ure sngure frkhnyyl, rapbhentrf ure uhfonaq gb unir frkhny vagrepbhefr jvgu gurve qnhtugref, naq nppbzcnavrf uvz jura ur qbrf; ohg sbeovqf n fba naq qnhtugre bs uref sebz pbagvahvat na vaprfghbhf eryngvbafuvc, cevznevyl sbe gur fvfgre'f eryhpgnapr gb funer gur oebgure jvgu bgure jbzra.[1] Nyy bs gurfr ner frg ntnvafg n uvfgbel yrffba bs na nygreangr 20gu praghel va juvpu n inevrgl bs fbpvny naq cuvybfbcuvpny pbzzragnel vf qryvirerq."

pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <k0mjB.88406$GQ5....@fx24.iad>,

No, never heard of him.

And I think the cultural mores varied by region as well as date.
I assume this was mid-twentieth-century sometime? That would've
been illegal in California even then.

However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
fiction as in SF/F.

[Scott Lurndal]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <k0mjB.88406$GQ5....@fx24.iad>,
>Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>>In article <9a0b42ae-6f31-4eda...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>David Johnston <davidjohnst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Well pushing or violating sexual taboos was Heinlein's thing in his
>>>>middle period. That one was a comparatively mild example.
>>>
>>>Yes, he got worse in his later period.
>>>
>>
>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>married his first cousin (13)?
>
>No, never heard of him.

Rock-n-Roll singer in the 50's. When word got out about the marriage
(he's from rural La.) in 1962, his career tanked until he switched to
country music.

>
>And I think the cultural mores varied by region as well as date.
>I assume this was mid-twentieth-century sometime? That would've
>been illegal in California even then.

Yes.

>
>However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
>material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
>able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
>to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
>fiction as in SF/F.

Well, it is, after all, fiction.

[Kevrob]

When a crewsapient on a Federation Starship sets his, her, $%3
phaser on "stun," is it then a fazer?

Kevin R

[David Johnston]

Yeah. He escalated quite a bit from breaking the taboo of even thinking about a tween age girl as a potential future wife when she's of age and to more orgiastic incest and molestation than you could shake a dildo at.

But then there is that drive to always top what you've already done. Actually I suppose the slave-ownership and cannibalism in Farnham's Freehold probably was another attempt to breach a taboo. Wasn't that incestuous brother/sister combo that Lazarus Long had fixed to avoid inbreeding his slaves?

I'm trying to remember. Was there a mother-daughter threesome in Glory Road or did he jut think about doing the teenage daughter but never get around to it?

[David Johnston]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 1:02:57 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >In article <k0mjB.88406$GQ5....@fx24.iad>,
> >Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> >>>In article <9a0b42ae-6f31-4eda...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>David Johnston <davidjohnst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Well pushing or violating sexual taboos was Heinlein's thing in his
> >>>>middle period. That one was a comparatively mild example.
> >>>
> >>>Yes, he got worse in his later period.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
> >>married his first cousin (13)?
> >
> >No, never heard of him.
>
> Rock-n-Roll singer in the 50's. When word got out about the marriage
> (he's from rural La.) in 1962, his career tanked until he switched to
> country music.

Yeah what he did was just barely legal in the part of the country where he did it but did violate a taboo that has only grown stronger over the years.

[D B Davis]

The phaser lases fazer phasors?

Thank you,

--
Don

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <c363bf5e-8de0-4375...@googlegroups.com>,

His children, IIRC.

>
>I'm trying to remember. Was there a mother-daughter threesome in Glory
>Road or did he jut think about doing the teenage daughter but never get
>around to it?

I'm pretty sure, not. He was approached by some very
young-looking females in the course of _Glory Road_, IIRC, and
said no thanks, and when pressed, said to Star, "I gave up sex
crimes for Lent!"

_GR_ was published in 1963, I remember that. Was _Stranger_
before or after that? That's when the weirdness started, to my
standards anyway.

But while I reread the juveniles from time to time, I haven't
read of his mid-period fiction in years, and I gave up his late
period after trying and failing to get through _Friday._

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"David Johnston" wrote in

{Jerry Lee Lewis}

>> Rock-n-Roll singer in the 50's. When word got out about the marriage
>> (he's from rural La.) in 1962, his career tanked until he switched to
>> country music.

>Yeah what he did was just barely legal in the part of the country where he
>did it but did violate a taboo that has only grown stronger over the years.

But only in the US.

I understand that Texas just got around to criminalizing such marriage. They
forgot to specify what was to happen to Texas-resident citizens already
cousinified.

The only genetic rule required might be to forbid cousins to marry if any of
their parents had married a cousin.

--
Mike D

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Michael R N Dolbear" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
news:ev6rne...@mid.individual.net:

According to the researchers, the birth defect risks for first
cousins having children is approximately the same as for a woman in
her 40s having children. For the first generation. (Do it too many
generations, and you get the British royal family.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 8/11/2017 4:08 PM, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in
>
> {Jerry Lee Lewis}
>>> Rock-n-Roll singer in the 50's. When word got out about the marriage
>>> (he's from rural La.) in 1962, his career tanked until he switched to
>>> country music.
>
>> Yeah what he did was just barely legal in the part of the country
>> where he did it but did violate a taboo that has only grown stronger
>> over the years.
>
> But only in the US.
>
> I understand that Texas just got around to criminalizing such marriage.
> They forgot to specify what was to happen to Texas-resident citizens
> already cousinified.
>

One generally cannot make a law retroactive, so such marriages would
stand. There just can't be any new such marriages.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 11 August 2017 00:17:20 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <omim3r$t2f$1...@dont-email.me>, lynnmc...@gmail.com says...
> >

> > On 8/10/2017 4:39 PM, Kevrob wrote:

> > > He also predicted a version of CAD/CAM: a drafting machine,
> > > "Drafting Dan."
> > >
> > > Kevin R
> >
> > Yes, I included that into the general category of home and business
> > automation.

> >
> > Heinlein also predicted driverless trucks which has yet to be proven. I
> > don't think that driverless trucks will ever happen due to safety
> > issues.
>

> Liability perhaps, but it is likely that any decent robotic truck will be
> safer than one driven by a human.

For the heck of it: how do you rat the self-driving
trucks that exist now?

Incidentally: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40860911>
considers popular perception of pilotless planes,
like, now.

> The fact is that humans as a group are
> not very good drivers.
>
> In any case, there are some big companies putting big money into making
> this happen, so it appears that they disagree with you.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ev6rne...@mid.individual.net>,

And if they argue, tell them about the Hapsburgs.

[Lynn McGuire]

Apparently, the biggest problem is the availability of multiple cameras
? sonars ? lidars ? building a 3D map of the roadside to be traveled.
The reason why the guy driving the Tesla car was killed hitting the
cross traveling truck was that the computer driving the car did not
realize that the truck was not the horizon. Or something like that. I
read a fairly recent article on the crash but cannot find it now, it may
have been on an ASME newsletter.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2017/06/a_new_report_on_what_happened_in_the_fatal_tesla_autopilot_crash.html

I am sure that the automatic driving hardware and software will continue
to get better. But will it get better than a skilled driver ?

BTW, people invest in new stuff all of the time. But bringing it to the
marketplace is tough. And yes, they have very deep pockets.

Lynn

[J. Clarke]

In article <omlq5u$ktj$1...@dont-email.me>, lynnmc...@gmail.com says...

The issue there is that Tesla never intended their self-driving technology
to be a replacement for a human driver.

And many cars on the road today have radar and other sensors. This isn't
an "availability" issue, it's an issue of whether the designers of the car
put them in or not.

> http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2017/06/a_new_report_on_what_happened_in_the_fatal_tesla_autopilot_crash.html
>
> I am sure that the automatic driving hardware and software will continue
> to get better. But will it get better than a skilled driver ?

Better than Nico Rosberg may take a while. Better than the guy who ran me
off the road while a cop was watching? Probably already there.

> BTW, people invest in new stuff all of the time. But bringing it to the
> marketplace is tough. And yes, they have very deep pockets.

If they didn't see profit potential they wouldn't be doing it.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

My recollection is that the software realized it was out of its depth
and notified the driver half a dozen times that he needed to take over
before the accident happened.

[J. Clarke]

In article <1b60dtb...@pfeifferfamily.net>, pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu
says...

Not "out of its depth". It's not intended to be a self-driving car. The
driver is supposed to keep his hands on the wheel. The trouble is that they
didn't fix it so the thing pulls over and stops when he take his hands off
the wheel, it just gives him easily ignorable messages about it.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

My impression was that Jerry Lee Lewis's problem wasn't marrying his
cousin, it was marrying a girl who was only thirteen. Even at the
time, even in Louisiana, that was highly questionable -- it required
her parents' consent, and I believe a judge had to sign off on it.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer in the Tunnels of Terror.
See http://www.watt-evans.com/TomDerringerintheTunnelsofTerror.shtml

[Robert Carnegie]

AIUI, the car is intended to be self-driving, just
not yet. When its software is upgraded. It has all
the hardware it needs. Or that seems to be the claim.

But they also blame the human driver for not taking
full control of the car when called to do so.

A problem with horizon recognition, it seems to me,
is that the horizon can be changed by cutting down
trees, by erecting a billboard, or, apparently,
by driving a truck in from a side road.

[J. Clarke]

In article <19713765-1d7b-4126...@googlegroups.com>,
rja.ca...@excite.com says...

The current software on the Tesla is not intended to make it a driverless
car. They do not claim that it does and the car attempts to induce the
driver to put his hands back on the wheel if he takes them off for more
than a few seconds.

What may happen some day is another story.

> But they also blame the human driver for not taking
> full control of the car when called to do so.

Yes, they do. Because they do not intend the car to be self driving. Some
day in the distant future, it may or may not become so, but as of this
instant in time it is not a self-driving car and they do not claim that it
is.

> A problem with horizon recognition, it seems to me,
> is that the horizon can be changed by cutting down
> trees, by erecting a billboard, or, apparently,
> by driving a truck in from a side road.

The objective is not "horizon recognition". Nobody _cares_ about the
horizon. The issue is distinguishiong some object that has a horizontal
line and is light above it and dark below it from the horizon. However
nobody in his right mind would design a self-driving car to depend solely
on making that distinction in determining whether there was an obstacle
ahead. That's what radar is for.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-08-11, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>married his first cousin (13)?
>
> No, never heard of him.

... great balls of fire!

Dave, always educational to come across a cultural difference this unexpected
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <Q6ednSEUbO4woQ3E...@earthlink.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On 2017-08-11, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>
>> No, never heard of him.
>
>... great balls of fire!

Well, we've both been posting to this group since I-don't-know-
when. I thought everyone (everyone who's left, anyway) had
caught on that I don't do much with popular culture. In
particular, I don't listen to rock'n'roll and all its variants
and descendants. Around the time (mid-fifties) that it was
coming in, 33-1/3 rpm LPs also came in, and my mother bought a
phonograph and started collecting classical music. That's what
I've listened to ever since. I also don't pay any more attention
than I have to, to whoever are the current celebrities or, as
they are disgustingly called, "celebs."

A celebrity is somebody who is famous for being famous, however
undeservedly.

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 8/11/2017 9:05 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:

>>> In any case, there are some big companies putting big money into making
>>> this happen, so it appears that they disagree with you.
>
>Apparently, the biggest problem is the availability of multiple cameras
>? sonars ? lidars ? building a 3D map of the roadside to be traveled.
>The reason why the guy driving the Tesla car was killed hitting the
>cross traveling truck was that the computer driving the car did not
>realize that the truck was not the horizon.

No, the reason the guy driving the Tesla was killed is that he
was a fool and an idiot.

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>Ray Bradbury wrote a story once, whose title escapes me, about a
>young man who finds his true soul mate ... and she's about
>ninety-five and dying, and all they can hope for is
>reincarnation.

This is a spoiler for the coda so I'm rot-13ing this. In Vinge's Gehr
Anzrf, nyzbfg nyy bs gur fgbel gnxrf cynpr va n 3Q vagrearg yvxr
Tvofba'f yngre Arhebznapre. Nsgre gur fgbel'f pyvznk unf orra
erfbyirq, gur znyr naq srznyr yrnq punenpgref zrrg - gur znyr gb
chefhr ebznapr, naq gur srznyr gb rkcynva ubj fur arrqf gur NV
grpuabybtl gb hcybnq urefrys orsber ure irel arne raq. At least
that's how I remember it from several decades later.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>married his first cousin (13)?
>
>No, never heard of him.

Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
encounters.

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>In article <Q6ednSEUbO4woQ3E...@earthlink.com>,
>David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>On 2017-08-11, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>>
>>> No, never heard of him.
>>
>>... great balls of fire!
>
>Well, we've both been posting to this group since I-don't-know-
>when. I thought everyone (everyone who's left, anyway) had
>caught on that I don't do much with popular culture. In
>particular, I don't listen to rock'n'roll and all its variants
>and descendants. Around the time (mid-fifties) that it was
>coming in, 33-1/3 rpm LPs also came in, and my mother bought a
>phonograph and started collecting classical music. That's what
>I've listened to ever since. I also don't pay any more attention
>than I have to, to whoever are the current celebrities or, as
>they are disgustingly called, "celebs."

I think JLL's career was mostly in the 78s era. A friend of mine in
high school's dad was a partner in a jukebox company. Their basement
had five or six "live" jukeboxes and entire walls of 78 albums.
Several JLL songs would come up on the playlist of the machine that he
played the most often.

[Greg Goss]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:


>> >>the story later. And even then it didn't phase her.

>When a crewsapient on a Federation Starship sets his, her, $%3
>phaser on "stun," is it then a fazer?

In the prequel TV series, the new weaponry arrives partway through the
first season. They install "phase cannons" on the ship and provide
phase pistols and phase rifles for crew use.

Contraction to "phaser" would come later.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <evbvsj...@mid.individual.net>,

He actually has a song where the chorus is something like "My life would
make a great country song".

And according to WP:

"As of early 2016, Lewis is still actively
performing in concert"

To my mind, this, post-wilderness, track is the best thing he ever did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhMlZo2nppg
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Lynn McGuire]

Yes, but the trucker got a ticket for failure to give right of way. I
read somewhere else that the trucker has had manslaughter charges filed
on him.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/1/14458662/tesla-autopilot-crash-accident-florida-fatal-highway-patrol-report

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <evbvsj...@mid.individual.net>,
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>
>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>
>>No, never heard of him.
>
>Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
>encounters.

Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
I might be able to answer.

[Cryptoengineer]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:e21b9011-e1fc-44bb...@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 12:55:10 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>> P. Taine <us...@domaine.invalid> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 23:43:03 -0000 (UTC), D B Davis <g...@crcomp.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>

>> >>_Door_ is my favorite SF story. It has a cat. There's a nostalgic
>> >>factor with the Southern California setting for me. My alumni is UC
>> >>Boulder. The story offers time travel.
>> >>
>> >>The psycho-biotches from my past could give Belle Darkin a run for
>> >>the money. The dirty dealing male associates from my past could
>> >>give Miles Gentry a run for the money.
>> >>
>> >>The story pretty much fires on all cylinders for me. That's why my
>> >>usenet nom de plume comes from the protagonist of the story.
>> >>
>> >>Men may be hyper-sensitized to squickiness these days. My wife read
>> >>_Door_, enjoyed it, and didn't notice the squick until we talked
>> >>about the story later. And even then it didn't phase her.
>> >
>> > If it had, would she have transitioned to liquid or gas?
>>
>>
>> My wife's body composition consists mostly of liquid water at all
>> times. If _Door_ had actually induced a phase change, a microscopic
>> portion of that liquid would've froze. Just enough to make it chilly.
>>
>

> When a crewsapient on a Federation Starship sets his, her, $%3
> phaser on "stun," is it then a fazer?
>

Fun fact: 'TASER' is derived from 'Tom Swift's
Electric Rifle'.

pt

[William Hyde]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <evbvsj...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
> >>>married his first cousin (13)?
> >>
> >>No, never heard of him.
> >
> >Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
> >encounters.
>
> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
> I might be able to answer.

I only recently discovered Gerald Finzi.

So much left to hear!

William Hyde

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 02:45:57 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J

Heydt) wrote:

>In article <evbvsj...@mid.individual.net>,
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>>
>>>No, never heard of him.
>>
>>Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
>>encounters.
>
>Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
>I might be able to answer.

Jerry Lee Lewis first hit big in the early 1950s.

[Richard Hershberger]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> In article <evbvsj...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
> >>>married his first cousin (13)?
> >>
> >>No, never heard of him.
> >
> >Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
> >encounters.
>
> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
> I might be able to answer.

What do you think of Harry Partch?

Richard R. Hershberger

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ab4db316-9c2c-48b9...@googlegroups.com>,

Now, I thought for a moment I recognized that name. Then I
realized I was thinking of cartoonist Virgil Partch.

So I googled Harry, and observed that I should have known about
him, back in the sixties when I was attending concerts with the
Composers' Forum in San Francisco. He sounds interesting; I shall
have to look into him.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:45:06 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <ab4db316-9c2c-48b9...@googlegroups.com>,
> Richard Hershberger <rrh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >What do you think of Harry Partch?

> Now, I thought for a moment I recognized that name. Then I
> realized I was thinking of cartoonist Virgil Partch.

> So I googled Harry, and observed that I should have known about
> him, back in the sixties when I was attending concerts with the
> Composers' Forum in San Francisco. He sounds interesting; I shall
> have to look into him.

I had only read about him. So I recognized the name immediately when I saw a
reference to "Daphne of the Dunes" in 500-point Adventure.

My own instincts are to be more sympathetic to the 53-note scale, such as was
used by Ben Johnston, than his 43-note one.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <b8d89bcf-6339-453f...@googlegroups.com>,

Well, let them by all means experiment.

Back in the day, I was singing with an early-music group that got
hold of some *ancient Greek* music that used quartertones. It
took us weeks to learn how to hear them, let alone sing them.
Even if I could still sing, I don't think I would attempt those
scales. (That I couldn't tell if I got them right or not, and
probably neither could the audience, is irrelevant.)

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-08-14, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>>
>>>No, never heard of him.
>>
>>Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
>>encounters.
>
> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
> I might be able to answer.

The funniest part, to me, is that since "Great Balls of Fire" is the title of
one of his larger hits, Dorothy's entirely serious answer that no, she never
heard of him or his stuff is actually self-verifying. :)

Dave, almost never metahumor I didn't like

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-08-20, David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2017-08-14, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>>>
>>>>No, never heard of him.
>>>
>>>Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
>>>encounters.
>>
>> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
>> I might be able to answer.
>
> The funniest part, to me, is that since "Great Balls of Fire" is the title of
> one of his larger hits, Dorothy's entirely serious answer that no, she never
> heard of him or his stuff is actually self-verifying. :)
>
> Dave, almost never metahumor I didn't like

... apologies for having left the alt.religion.kibology Death Ray on while I
was typing it. Mea maxima culpepper.

Dave, at least it didn't get the -right- Jerry Lewis

[Scott Lurndal]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> writes:
>On 2017-08-14, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>>>Did he? Or did cultural mores change? Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis (23)
>>>>>married his first cousin (13)?
>>>>
>>>>No, never heard of him.
>>>
>>>Dorothy and music history make me laugh out loud after the first few
>>>encounters.
>>
>> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
>> I might be able to answer.
>

This overture has some chant - not sure if it's gregorian or
not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kl_N99UebY

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <o6BmB.28214$Iu1....@fx07.iad>,

Interesting. It wasn't like most of the chant in the books I
have, whose rhythm is free-flowing, like speech. It had a fixed
meter, like a hymn. I couldn't understand the words, though I
think I caught the word _animus_, "soul". It could've been an
Ambrosian hymn (fourth century CE), but I think not; it could
have been a hymn from a later period. Or they could've made it
up along the lines of a Gregorian or Ambrosian hymn. Considering
the trappings of the rest of the performance, I think perhaps it
was the composer's own invention.

[Scott Lurndal]

I suspect so. It's not clear who the composer was - the overture
began a concert by Within Tempation, a dutch 'symphonic heavy metal'
band. Was recorded at the Ahoy in the Netherlands, 2008. The
Metropol Orchest provided the orchestra.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 7:20:24 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> writes:

> >> Ask me about anything from Gregorian chant to the early 1950s and
> >> I might be able to answer.

> This overture has some chant - not sure if it's gregorian or
> not.

Speaking of Gregorian Chant, it always amused me that the Beach Boys' "Good
Vibrations" included a chunk that was clearly patterned after Gregorian Chant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

John Savard

[tsbr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 2:28:49 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> _The Door into Summer_ by Robert A. Heinlein
> https://www.amazon.com/Door-into-Summer-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0451085744/
>
> A standalone story, no prequel, no sequel. I read a well used MMPB
> version that was printed in 1982. The original book appears to have
> been published in 1956.
>
> I am not sure if I ever read this particular Heinlein before. I lost
> most of my Heinlein books in The Great Flood of '89 so I just do not
> know. I do not remember it whatsoever though.
>
> I really enjoyed the book with the various combinations of time travel.
> I had never really thought about "cold sleep" being a time travel
> method. Heinlein postulated that people would not age during cold
> sleep. If I remember correctly, this hypothesis has been disproven.
> There has actually been a movie about it, "Forever Young", where the
> person came out of cold sleep the same age but aged rapidly.
> https://www.amazon.com/Forever-Young-Mel-Gibson/dp/B0045LPTLK/

People have actually been brought out of cold sleep ALIVE and well? When did this happen? Why didn't I see this historic story on CNN?

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:27:23 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

> However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
> material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
> able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
> to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
> fiction as in SF/F.

When the brain-eater first hit him, I assumed that he was working out
all those years when, for example, an editor totally eviscerated "All
You Zombies" by changing "the pants came off" to "the games began."

This led me to the delusion that when he'd worked it all out of his
system, he would go back to writing stories.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[D B Davis]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:27:23 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
>> However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
>> material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
>> able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
>> to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
>> fiction as in SF/F.
>
> When the brain-eater first hit him, I assumed that he was working out
> all those years when, for example, an editor totally eviscerated "All
> You Zombies" by changing "the pants came off" to "the games began."
>
> This led me to the delusion that when he'd worked it all out of his
> system, he would go back to writing stories.

Speaking of "All You Zombies," my next read, after my re-read of _Ubik_
(PKD) is "The Janus Equation" (Spruill, 1980). It's my understanding
that the time travel hanky panky in "Janus" echoes that found in
"Zombies."

Thank you,

--
Don

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <vgvaqc9h1vi5vr89o...@4ax.com>,

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:27:23 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>> However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
>> material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
>> able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
>> to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
>> fiction as in SF/F.
>
>When the brain-eater first hit him, I assumed that he was working out
>all those years when, for example, an editor totally eviscerated "All
>You Zombies" by changing "the pants came off" to "the games began."
>
>This led me to the delusion that when he'd worked it all out of his
>system, he would go back to writing stories.

Well, it was a working hypothesis at the time, based on what you
knew and didn't know.

My initial reaction to various late Heinlein works was "he needs
a stern editor." But it turned out that he could've written
"Soviet Brain-eaters Are Stealing Our Women" and his name
would've sold it, and he went on selling things like that. Well,
maybe not with that title.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 8/29/17 10:47 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:27:23 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
>> However, if you meant Heinlein could get away with grottier
>> material later in the century than earlier, that's true. I'm not
>> able to judge whether, for a given date, he would have been able
>> to get away with the same degree of grottiness in mainstream
>> fiction as in SF/F.
>
> When the brain-eater first hit him, I assumed that he was working out
> all those years when, for example, an editor totally eviscerated "All
> You Zombies" by changing "the pants came off" to "the games began."
>
> This led me to the delusion that when he'd worked it all out of his
> system, he would go back to writing stories.
>

The late Gharlane thought that _Number of the Beast_ was RAH's attempt
to write a guide to writing that was based on showing you what NOT to do
-- including having the characters say "don't do this" and then have the
author show you why.

Alas, if so, he permanently damaged his ability to write WELL.

The only later book of his that I felt told a single story and did it
reasonably smoothly, without falling off the wagon so to speak, was _Job_.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

[Joe Morris]

Not so long ago, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:
> The late Gharlane thought that _Number of the Beast_ was RAH's attempt
> to write a guide to writing that was based on showing you what NOT to do
> -- including having the characters say "don't do this" and then have the
> author show you why.

> Alas, if so, he permanently damaged his ability to write WELL.

> The only later book of his that I felt told a single story and did it
> reasonably smoothly, without falling off the wagon so to speak, was _Job_.

Agree on Job. Pretty nicely done, but I always assumed it was a prettied-up
trunk novel. Can't remember hearing the real story about it, though

I worked in a bookstore back then, and it was exciting to see a new Heinein
book come out and see it on the "mainstream" bestseller list immediately

I'm glad some of the old-school writers lasted into the 80's to catch that
brief wave of general popularity. Too bad Strugeon didn't live quite long
enough to see Godbody come out as a nice, new hardcover -- I guess it wasn't an
actual bestseller, but it looked good and legit with a Heinlein blurb and intro.

--
Joe Morris Atlanta history blog
jol...@gmail.com http://atlhistory.com

[Greg Goss]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> The late Gharlane thought that _Number of the Beast_ was RAH's attempt
>to write a guide to writing that was based on showing you what NOT to do
>-- including having the characters say "don't do this" and then have the
>author show you why.
>
> Alas, if so, he permanently damaged his ability to write WELL.
>
> The only later book of his that I felt told a single story and did it
>reasonably smoothly, without falling off the wagon so to speak, was _Job_.

Friday worked for me (so long as you tear out the last two pages and
lament the missing chapters.) Job didn't, but required the same
caveat anyways.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <f0pf4s...@mid.individual.net>,

Is TEFL a "late" book? For me it worked. It wasn't a single story, but
I had no problem with the way it fit together.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <f0pgmu...@mid.individual.net>,

I suspect that the subject of when the brain eater got Heinlein,
like the subject of how to distinguish fantasy from science
fiction, is going to be one where each draws his own line and
argues about it with the others till everybody gets tired.

My opinion is as follows:

Anything before 1964 = good, except for _Stranger in a Strange
Land,_ first third good, second two-thirds bad

_Farnham's Freehold_, 1964 = bad

_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, 1966 = good

Anything after 1966 = bad, bad, bad

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

[Greg Goss]

It depends on how you define late. To my mind, it was the "retirement
novel" where he took a few stories out of the trunk and stitched them
together because he was never going to get to finish them properly.

There are "later late books" after the brain surgery, when he was able
to resume writing.

[Richard Hershberger]

Yabbut, this requires the caveat that we are talking about good and bad within a very specific context. I find that even the earlier Heinlein hasn't aged well. This isn't really a comment about Heinlein. Most science fiction doesn't age well. Or really, most popular fiction. This is essentially the difference between "popular" and "literary" fiction. If it ages well, it is literary fiction, even if it was marketed as popular fiction when it came out.

When I broke down and get a Kindle, I took the opportunity to revisit old favorites. For the most part the experience proved disappointing. So much so that I only reluctantly downloaded The Lord of the Rings, which I hadn't read in ten or fifteen years, for fear of what I would find. Fortunately, what I found was very good. In some respects better than I remembered, as in my old age I relished the seemingly pointless bits I had tended to skim in my ill-spent youth.

Heinlein, and specifically early Heinlein, was on my revisit list. I found it nearly unreadable. Partly it is that the mid-20th century prose is dreadfully dated. Partly it is attitudes that hadn't aged well. Partly it is that the Heinleinian Voice of Authority that so impressed me as a teen now reads as shameless bullshitting. Related to this is that I now see characters intended to be sympathetic as awful human beings. It was The Man Who Sold the Moon that drove this home. D. D. Harriman is a loathsome individual of the sort I would strive to avoid in real life, yet we are supposed to admire him for getting things done. feh

Richard R. Hershberger

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5966e557-8e8a-4e5b...@googlegroups.com>,

Suum cuique. I reread the Heinlein juveniles regularly (except
_Rocket Ship Galileo).

[Lynn McGuire]

Personally, I liked TEFL, except for the squicky part, but I did not
like Job. I am still on the fence about IWFNE.

Lynn

[Titus G]

On 01/09/17 01:26, Richard Hershberger wrote:
snip

>
> Heinlein, and specifically early Heinlein, was on my revisit list. I found it nearly unreadable.

I have had the same problem.

> Partly it is that the mid-20th century prose is dreadfully dated. Partly it is attitudes that hadn't aged well. Partly it is that the Heinleinian Voice of Authority that so impressed me as a teen now reads as shameless bullshitting. Related to this is that I now see characters intended to be sympathetic as awful human beings.

Thank you for organising and articulating my previously jumbled thoughts
on this issue.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Great men are not always appreciated:

http://dilbert.com/strip/1997-02-16