Something Wicked this Way Comes
Gabe White
Well, I just finished this Ray Bradbury book...
It's the only fantasy book I've ever actually *liked*. He tied all the
seemingly unrelated threads together so nicely, it was a pleasure to read.
BTW, Mr. Dark (a.k.a. the illustrated man) was one the most *evil*
charecters I've seen in a book. Anyone know someone worse is a book?
--
"Statesman, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is
Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon
which Freedom can securely stand."
-John Adams
Unknown
>BTW, Mr. Dark (a.k.a. the illustrated man) was one the most *evil*
>charecters I've seen in a book. Anyone know someone worse is a book?
>
He's on my top five list. I can't think of anyone else in SF who is
so totally evil--no redeeming qualities. Here's the other four:
1. Kathy from "East of Eden" by John Steinbeck
2. Dracula (Bram Stoker)
3. Charles Austra (sp?) in "Shattered Glass" by Elaine Bergstrom
4. Savonarola (sp?) in "The Palace" by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
So I enjoy vampire books. I'd rather hang out in this newsgroup. The
folks in alt.vampyre are weird <grin>
Shadow (sha...@srv.net)
Jo Walton
Emil Clausen in Marion Bradley Kellogg's _The Wave and the Flame_ and _Reign of
Fire_. One of the few characters so evil I feel my heart sink when he enters a
scene, yet totally believeable.
Tylara, the editor in Dan Simmons _Hyperion_ and _Fall of Hyperion_
I'd agree with Shadow about Cathy in _East of Eden_, except that it isn't SF...
Evil characters have a terrible tendency to turn into caricature - cf the
villains in Orson Scott Card's Alvin books, or to just be defined as evil, like
Sauron, who is The Dark Lord and who just gets along as ultimate evil without
any characterisation at all. This is fine on a mythic scale, but it doesn't
always work. And sometimes I find the motivation of evil characters totally
unlikely. The writer who really scares me with her portrayal of evil is
Cherryh, because she not only makes me hate the bad guys she makes me
understand and sympathise too. That's why I don't want the kif POV novel... but
I wouldn't say the kif were *evil*.
Just for contrast the most evil person I can think of IRL is Kassandros (I
think the standard English spelling is Kassander,) the son of Antipatros.
--
Jo
*************************************************************
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
*************************************************************
Help me colonise an alien planet at Intersection Glasgow '95
*************************************************************
Markus Freericks
[ on evil characters]
> There's not all that many, really.
> always work. And sometimes I find the motivation of evil characters totally
> unlikely. The writer who really scares me with her portrayal of evil is
> Cherryh, because she not only makes me hate the bad guys she makes me
> understand and sympathise too. That's why I don't want the kif POV novel... but
> I wouldn't say the kif were *evil*.
In Donaldson's "Gap" series, just about _anybody_ is more or less evil --
which is why I don't like the series, it would be nicer if there were at
least a _few_ characters to sympathize with.
In contrast, the Kif are almost charming...
-- Markus
Pete Ford
nastier piece of work I find difficult to imagine. The way he treats
Julia Stretton made me want to hit him, fictional character or not.
Pete
---------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Ford >>>>>>> Fo...@ens.ascom.ch <<<<<<<
South Wales, UK
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cry, 'Hammock!' and let sleep the dogs of war."
Steve Thomas
example, Lord Foul (sp?), in Stephen R. Donaldson's covenant series.
He's kinda boring, but totally evil.
My favorite "evil" character: the protagonist in "Clockwork Orange".
What a thoroughly believable, terrible person that kid was. But what
kept my interest was the way the story was told, and the question of
what to about the kid, and the idea that perhaps this kid was not
unusual in that society.
sfthomas (ottawa, canada)
steve....@bbs.synapse.net
Stephen Dedman
>Shadow (sha...@srv.net)
My choices? ALL of the 'mind-vampires' from Dan Simmons's _Carrion
Comfort_ (especially Tony Harod, who is despicable as well as evil), Dracula
from Kim Newman's _Anno Dracula_ (utterly devoid of the redeeming features
most writers inflict on him), and Greg Stillson from Stephen King's _The Dead
Zone_.
- Stephen Dedman
- Just my opinions, but they're for sale if you want them -
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
wickedness. The protagonist of Henry Kuttner's "By These Presents" is the
most evil man on Earth almost by definition. How much more evil can you
get? But 'tis cheating IMHO, as he is essentially a supernatural creature
two pages into the story. OTOH, Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil man.
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.fan.heinlein, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew, miscellaneous SF
Please consider posting (as opposed to e-mailing) ID requests
David L. Elliott
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
>Well, there is natural wickedness and then there is supernatural
>wickedness. The protagonist of Henry Kuttner's "By These Presents" is the
>most evil man on Earth almost by definition. How much more evil can you
>get? But 'tis cheating IMHO, as he is essentially a supernatural creature
>two pages into the story. OTOH, Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
>Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil man.
>
>--
>Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
Vance's work is rife with evil characters... the Demon Princes par excellence,
but IMHO most of his stories have criminals and/or cruel people as major
characters. His detective stories (John Holbrook Vance) are lively, by the
way. I wish he had written more of them.
David
--
David L. Elliott dell...@src.umd.edu
Institute for Systems Research/ A.V. Williams Building
University of Maryland/ College Park, MD 20742
Robert Pearlman
Wandering Jew) writes:
[snip]
> OTOH, Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
> Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil man.
>
> --
> Ahasuerus
Let's have a hiss for Ry Ryoval (in Mirror Dance). Has no socially redeeming
characteristics whatsoever. Bujold must have had one really rotten ski trip.
rp
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) wrote:
> : [...] Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
> : Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil man.
>
> it benefits him. It's much easier to be evil than you thought. What
> makes his sins compelling is that Vance describes them so simply,
> without any of the usual beating about the bush. [snip]
"Ah! So you know!" cried Liane in delight, and strode back and forth
before the fire. "Ah, you know! We renew the trial. Now attend. With this
staff I make jelly of your man's legs, and bring his spine up through his
stomach - unless you speak. [...]
"Speak, woman," snarled Liane, painting. "I am in perspiration with this
work."
"Sometimes it seemed as if all living creatures conspired to exasperate
him. Only this morning, the spice merchant - what a tumult he had made
dying! How carelessly he had spewed blood on Liane's cock comb sandals!"
"Absurdity!" stormed Liane. "Look at me! Note my perfect grace, the beauty
of my form and feature, my great eyes, as golden as your own, my manifest
will and power... It is you who should serve me. This is how I will have
it."
I hereby submit that Liane was the perfect egotist and hence completely
evil.
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
ppint.
aha...@clark.net "Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew" wrote:
> Brian Pickrell (pma...@eskimo.com) wrote:
> > Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) wrote:
> > : [...] Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
> > : Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil
> > : man.
> > If you'll recall, what Liane does is simply to kill, and steal, when
> > it benefits him. It's much easier to be evil than you thought. What
> > makes his sins compelling is that Vance describes them so simply,
> > without any of the usual beating about the bush. [snip]
> "Ah! So you know!" cried Liane in delight, and strode back and forth
> before the fire. "Ah, you know! We renew the trial. Now attend. With this
> staff I make jelly of your man's legs, and bring his spine up through his
> stomach - unless you speak. [...]
> "Speak, woman," snarled Liane, painting. "I am in perspiration with this
> work."
- yes: he's annoyed with the woman because she has the gall to
"make" him torture her man, besides which effort their suffering
naturally pales into insignificance,
>
> "Sometimes it seemed as if all living creatures conspired to exasperate
> him. Only this morning, the spice merchant - what a tumult he had made
> dying! How carelessly he had spewed blood on Liane's cock comb sandals!"
>
- and with the spice merchant he murdered, for dying so clumsily,
again putting him to some inconvenience; a matter self-evidently
of greater import than the trivial detail of the man's death.
> "Absurdity!" stormed Liane. "Look at me! Note my perfect grace, the beauty
> of my form and feature, my great eyes, as golden as your own, my manifest
> will and power... It is you who should serve me. This is how I will have
> it."
>
- and sure beyond any shadow of question of his place at the centre
of the world.
>
> I hereby submit that Liane was the perfect egotist and hence completely
> evil.
>
> (Ahasuerus)
>
- or perfectly innocent?
- within what "necessarily and sufficiently" lies "evil" ?
- and speaking of magnificently moulded villains, where would you
place ben reich, and where duncan chalk ?
- love, ppint.
--
"the life of a vegetable is of no interest to anyone whatsoever -
including to the vegetable in question. i speak from personal experience."
- ppint. at interstellar master traders, lancaster
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> aha...@clark.net "Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew" wrote:
> > Brian Pickrell (pma...@eskimo.com) wrote:
> > > Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) wrote:
> > > : [...] Liane the Wayfarer from Jack Vance's _The
> > > : Dying Earth_ is a *naturally* evil man. A beautifully, perfectly evil
> > > : man.
> > >
> > > it benefits him. It's much easier to be evil than you thought. What
> > > makes his sins compelling is that Vance describes them so simply,
> > > without any of the usual beating about the bush. [snip]
> >
>
> - yes: he's annoyed with the woman because she has the gall to
> "make" him torture her man, besides which effort their suffering
> - and with the spice merchant he murdered, for dying so clumsily,
> again putting him to some inconvenience; a matter self-evidently
> - and sure beyond any shadow of question of his place at the centre
> of the world.
>
> > I hereby submit that Liane was the perfect egotist and hence completely
> > evil.
>
>
> - within what "necessarily and sufficiently" lies "evil" ?
Correct me if I am wrong, ppint, but we seem to agree that Liane was the
perfect egoist. The disagreement, if there is one, lies in how we perceive
the relationship between Egoism and Evil. I believe that people who do not
assign value to anything but themselves are evil. The better one is at it,
the more evil one is. Liane is exceptionally good at it. Very few people
are as good as he was.
Now, it is true that children may not know what Good and Evil are. I would
be inclined to consider Liane "innocent" rather than "evil" if the world
of the Dying Earth were a-moral, i.e. pre-Apple. But other stories in the
collection demonstrate that Good and Evil exist on the Dying Earth as
surely as they exist on our Earth. Some characters are good, some evil,
some morally ambiguous.
> - and speaking of magnificently moulded villains, where would you
> place ben reich, and where duncan chalk ?
Ben Reich was not *absolutely* evil IMO. He had emotions - granted, well
hidden emotions - vis a vis other characters. Liane has none that are not
directly self-centered.
Bronis Vidugiris
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
re:
)
)"Absurdity!" stormed Liane. "Look at me! Note my perfect grace, the beauty
)of my form and feature, my great eyes, as golden as your own, my manifest
)will and power... It is you who should serve me. This is how I will have
)it."
)I hereby submit that Liane was the perfect egotist and hence completely
)evil.
Hmmm - I'm drawing a blank on evil characters from SF right now,
but megalomaniac sociopathy doesn't seem to me to be the entirety of
Evil(tm) (though it will do in a pinch :-)).