Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

[James Nicoll]

Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Scott Lurndal]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
>http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

Ah, an oh-fer[*].

[*] Well, I once started _The Sheep Look Up_, but the only brunner
I could finish was _Polymath_.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <_F2cB.64640$GV1....@fx05.iad>,

That was always my favorite of his. Read both versions several times.
He was also in optimistic mood for _Shockwave Rider_, but that never
clicked for me as much as _Polymath_.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

I've actually managed to score a goose egg this time.

(I bounced off the Zamiatin[1] in high school. I own the Butler, but
if I read it there'll be one less Butler I'll ever read again for the
first time.)

[1] Talk to NACO if you want a different romanization. The answer will
be 'no'.

--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
>http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

Hmmm. I have heard of a few of these. A few of them I've seen
recommended, in another context (Butler, Le Guin, Lee). And of course
everyone was forced to read "The Lottery" (the short) in school[1],
right? And I think there was a time when the Austen was a high-school
English Lit staple, although it wasn't in my high school, but I'm not
at all clear what's supposed to be SFnal or dystopian about it.

I'm pretty sure that I don't actually *own* a copy of any of these
books, not even the Atoowd. (I do own other books by Atwood, Butler,
Le Guin, and Lee.)

-GAWollman

[1] Dim memory says seventh grade.

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Default User]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 8:41:25 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

Only "The Lottery" for me.


Brian

[Robert Woodward]

In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
> d-have-on-their-shelves

Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[James Nicoll]

In article <robertaw-DA4DCD...@news.individual.net>,

Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
>> d-have-on-their-shelves
>
>Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
>However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
>definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
>scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..
>

Do dystopias need to be fictional?

[Chris Buckley]

On 2017-07-20, Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
>> d-have-on-their-shelves
>
> Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
> However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
> definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
> scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..

I agree with you about _Pride and Prejudice_.

I thought I'd read 8, but checking my library, I have the Piercy also
and I must have read it, putting me at 9. I have no memories of it,
even after reading the cover and blurbs.

Chris

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:41:25 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

I have read 9:

Atwood, Austen, Brunner, Jackson, LeGuin, Lee, Piercy, Takami (saw film), and
Zamyatin.

Obvious actual core SF dystopias Jim skipped, in his usual way: '1984'
'Brave New World', and 'Fahrenheit 451'.

Personally, I can't consider the Austen a dystopia. To me, the author has to
buy in to the designation, otherwise the dystopianness of the book depends
solely on the attitudes of the reader. If P&P is dystopian, then nearly all
mimetic fiction written before about 1970 is dystopian - at least for some
readers, and more will become so as time passes.

pt

[Default User]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:37:30 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:

> Do dystopias need to be fictional?

In this case, your page says "Speculative Fiction Works about Dystopias" so, yeah fiction. And where is the "speculative" in P&P (without zombies anyway).


Brian

[David Johnston]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:27:02 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:41:25 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
> >
> > http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>
> I have read 9:
>
> Atwood, Austen, Brunner, Jackson, LeGuin, Lee, Piercy, Takami (saw film), and
> Zamyatin.
>
> Obvious actual core SF dystopias Jim skipped, in his usual way: '1984'
> 'Brave New World', and 'Fahrenheit 451'.
>
> Personally, I can't consider the Austen a dystopia.

I think more people should invest in sarcasm detectors.

[James Nicoll]

In article <13a9e0f7-b113-4d48...@googlegroups.com>,

AH CRAP. Sorry, I only fixed part of my core list template. GD memory.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/20/2017 8:41 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

Wow, I have read none of these.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mimetic

New word for me, interesting.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?

Please do not take this as criticism. Your life, your work your reputation.

Lynn

[Jack Bohn]

James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <robertaw-DA4DCD...@news.individual.net>,

> Robert Woodward wrote:
> >In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

> > James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
> >>
> >> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
> >> d-have-on-their-shelves
> >
> >Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
> >However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
> >definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
> >scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..
> >
> Do dystopias need to be fictional?

The idea of "no place" is built into utopia, I suppose it would only be fair to carry that part onto something opposite to it in one sense.

I read the Sleator (well, the introduction to the house of stairs, then I skipped over a lot of the middle about the people being horrid to each other to the explanation at the end); is this a "true" dystopia? That these kids can be thrown into their mini-dystopia as an experiment is bad, but I don't remember if we're told how much of outside society was involved in that.

If I'm ever in the position of restructuring the universe, remind me to switch the titles of _We_ and _Anthem_.

--
-Jack

[James Nicoll]

In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/20/2017 1:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 7/20/2017 8:41 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>>
>http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>>>
>>
>> Wow, I have read none of these.
>>
>> Lynn
>
>Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
>lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?
>

You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists
so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
but thank you for your concern.

[James Nicoll]

In article <544fc8ad-7b87-41a4...@googlegroups.com>,

The hints we get about the outside world suggest one that is unpleasant
and regimented.

[David Johnston]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:37:30 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <robertaw-DA4DCD...@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> > jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >
> >> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
> >>
> >> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
> >> d-have-on-their-shelves
> >
> >Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
> >However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
> >definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
> >scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..
> >
> Do dystopias need to be fictional?
> --

I think actually they need to be worse than reality so yes. A utopia is an attempt to create a place too good to be true. By extension a dystopia has to be too bad to be true. Yes, 1984 is modeled on Stalinist Russia...but it's a world where the whole world has adopted and perfected the practices of Stalinist Russia extending them into perpetuity.

[James Nicoll]

In article <291665ab-0fa6-4322...@googlegroups.com>,

David Johnston <davidjohnst...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I think actually they need to be worse than reality so yes. A utopia is
>an attempt to create a place too good to be true. By extension a
>dystopia has to be too bad to be true. Yes, 1984 is modeled on Stalinist
>Russia...but it's a world where the whole world has adopted and
>perfected the practices of Stalinist Russia extending them into
>perpetuity.

Mind you, we only have the government's word that the whole world
is like that and they're known to lie. Strictly speaking, it's not
clear either their two rival great powers exist. Airstrip One could
be that world's answer to North Korea.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 1:47:30 PM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
> >lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?

> You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists
> so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
> few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
> but thank you for your concern.

Ha! Well, at least you're explaining yourself here.

Oh, and I _have_ read We, in English translation. And I began the Handmaid's
Tale, though I didn't get very far.

Now, I could be mistaken, since I'm going only by its title, but it seems as
though the same criticism levelled at the inclusion of Pride and Prejudice
could also have been aimed at Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, but no
one advanced it there.

I have now checked, and, in fact, the criticism would be more well-founded in
the latter case, because at least Pride and Prejudice _was_ a work of
_fiction_. In the latter case, it's almost like including The Diary of Anne
Frank on the list... and there's even a *parallel* between the two works.

John Savard

[Peter Trei]

In this context, 'mimetic fiction' refers to fiction set in the 'Real World,
Right Now, Right Here', with no fantastical elements. What it is imitating is
reality. P&P was mimetic, since it is set in the English culture in which
JA lived.

pt

[David Duffy]

Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, I can't consider the Austen a dystopia.

Nobody seems to have pinged

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_in_the_Life_of_a_Slave_Girl
instead of say _White Lotus_.


And _Walk to the End of the World_ has a happy ending, surely? (should I
inset a smiley?)

Cheers, David Duffy.

[D B Davis]

Those obvious dystopias are on my personal lits:

_1984_ (Orwell)
_Brave New World_ (Huxley)
_Fahrenheit 451_ (Bradbury)
"We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree)
"I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" (Ellison)
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ (PKD)
"The Lottery" (Jackson)
_The Lathe of Heaven_ (Le Guin)
_A Canticle for Leibowitz_ (Miller)
_Time Machine_ (Wells)
_Hunger Games_ (Collins)
_A Clockwork Orange_ (Burgess)
_Cloud Atlas_ (Mitchell)
_Alongside Night_ (Schulman)
_Atlas Shrugged_ (Rand)
_Cat's Cradle_ (Vonnegut)
_Logan's Run_ (Nolan and Johnson)
_I Am Legend_ (Matheson)
_Lord of the Flies_ (Golding)
_Neuromancer_ (Gibson)
_V for Vendetta_ (Moore and Lloyd)

Thank you,

--
Don

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/20/2017 2:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 7/20/2017 1:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 7/20/2017 8:41 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, I have read none of these.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
>> lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?
>>
> You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists
> so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
> few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
> but thank you for your concern.

I am 57 and yes, I am beginning to start seeing that I am no longer a
major target of most retailers. I never thought about that for books
though.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Several of these are post-apocalyptic. _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ is
definitely and so is _I Am Legend_.

_1984_ is very dystopic though.

Lynn

[Robert Bannister]

On 20/7/17 9:41 pm, James Nicoll wrote:
> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>

Once again, three I have read, and those are the only three I have ever
heard of.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/20/2017 2:47 PM, James Nicoll wrote:

> In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 7/20/2017 1:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 7/20/2017 8:41 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, I have read none of these.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
>> lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?
>>
> You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists
> so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
> few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
> but thank you for your concern.

Have you read _Soft Apocalypse_ by Will McIntosh ? The book covers a 30
year descent into severe dystopia for North America.
https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Apocalypse-Will-McIntosh/dp/159780276X/

Lynn

[Carl Fink]

I'm astonished that in this newsgroup so few have read *Lathe*.
--
Carl Fink nitpi...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

[J. Clarke]

In article <40af0795-e8a5-4419...@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com says...

If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn". That
we might not find a particular past society to our taste doesn't make
stories placed in such societies by people living in those societies
"dystopias".

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:

> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn".

and?

[D B Davis]

> Several of these are post-apocalyptic. _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ is
> definitely and so is _I Am Legend_.
>
> _1984_ is very dystopic though.

OK, you win. Replace _Canticle_ with _An Enemy of the State_ (Wilson).
_Enemy_ should've been there from the get go anyhow. While you're at it
replace _Cat's Cradle_ with "Harrison Bergeron" (Vonnegut). It's shorter
and more dystopic.

That leaves _Legend_. You probably object to World War Z (Brooks) on the
same grounds as _Legend_. Many people object to _Farnham's Freehold_
(RAH) just because.

_A Scanner Darkly_ (PKD) and _Radio Free Albemuth_ (PKD) are nice little
dystopias, but they break James' "one author" rule.

Hmmmm. /Light bulb turns on in brain./ OK. Got it. Replace _Legend_
with _Molon Labe_ (Party).

Thank you,

--
Don

[Ahasuerus]

If a reviewer uses unorthodox definitions of "core" and "true SF fan",
it seems likely that "dystopia" and "speculative" would be treated
similarly.

[Cryptoengineer]

hamis...@gmail.com wrote in news:253931ba-3a8b-41e8-8561-0483c9a68ac6
@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn".
>
> and?

Like 'core', you seem to define 'dystopia' in a way thats not in the
dictionary.

A dystopia is something deliberately and knowingly created by an
author. He or she decides to portray a crapsack world, by his or
her standards.

Your not liking the society in which a piece of mimetic fiction
is embedded does not make it a dystopia, though you might
reasonably describe it using the word 'dystopian'.

You might consider the situation of women in Regency England
dystopian, but P&P is not a dystopian novel.

pt

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:37:56 PM UTC+10, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> hamis...@gmail.com wrote in news:253931ba-3a8b-41e8-8561-0483c9a68ac6
> @googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn".
> >
> > and?
>
> Like 'core', you seem to define 'dystopia' in a way thats not in the
> dictionary.
>
> A dystopia is something deliberately and knowingly created by an
> author. He or she decides to portray a crapsack world, by his or
> her standards.

from
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dystopian
dystopia
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.

[Cryptoengineer]

hamis...@gmail.com wrote in
news:1f985b9c-ad64-4233...@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:37:56 PM UTC+10, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> hamis...@gmail.com wrote in
>> news:253931ba-3a8b-41e8-8561-0483c9a68ac6 @googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >
>> >> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry
>> >> Finn".
>> >
>> > and?
>>
>> Like 'core', you seem to define 'dystopia' in a way thats not in the
>> dictionary.
>>
>> A dystopia is something deliberately and knowingly created by an
>> author. He or she decides to portray a crapsack world, by his or
>> her standards.
>
> from
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dystopian
> dystopia
> a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression,
> disease, and overcrowding.

That's a pretty lazy definition. How about Brave New World, or
Fahrenheit 451? I think most of us would call them dystopias,
as would their authors, but there's no squalor, disease, or
overcrowding. ...and the overwhelming majority of the people
living there would laugh at the notion that they're 'oppressed'.

pt

[Gerald Kelleher]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:25:24 PM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:

I am delighted you brought Mongo from this forum over the the astronomy forum as that unfortunate is no different to the graffiti you spray on my threads for the last few decades and there is nothing that can be done but endure the meaningless pretense.

[Gerald Kelleher]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
>
> Lynn

That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology whereas the Principia is science fiction based on astronomy, a bluffing fest for voodoo merchants.

You folk can't distinguish science fiction and science fantasy but then again intellectual pretense is fluff and tinsel for those who can't be inspired or inspiring (spiritual).

[Greg Goss]

D B Davis <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:

>Those obvious dystopias are on my personal [list]:

>
>_1984_ (Orwell)
>_Brave New World_ (Huxley)
>_Fahrenheit 451_ (Bradbury)
>"We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree)
>"I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" (Ellison)
>_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ (PKD)
>"The Lottery" (Jackson)
>_The Lathe of Heaven_ (Le Guin)
>_A Canticle for Leibowitz_ (Miller)
>_Time Machine_ (Wells)
>_Hunger Games_ (Collins)
>_A Clockwork Orange_ (Burgess)
>_Cloud Atlas_ (Mitchell)
>_Alongside Night_ (Schulman)
>_Atlas Shrugged_ (Rand)
>_Cat's Cradle_ (Vonnegut)
>_Logan's Run_ (Nolan and Johnson)
>_I Am Legend_ (Matheson)
>_Lord of the Flies_ (Golding)
>_Neuromancer_ (Gibson)
>_V for Vendetta_ (Moore and Lloyd)

To me, dystopia requires a [mal]functioning society. Thus I would
exclude extreme post-apocalyptic stories like "I Am Legend" and "Day
of the Triffids". I'm not sure what category I would create for Lord
of the Flies, but it wouldn't be "dystopia".

When I was in high school, the curriculum required the teacher to
select from one of four dystopias. 1984, Brave New World, This
Perfect Day, and one other - perhaps Fahrenheit 451.

There was a major controversy about the consequences of the rape scene
in This Perfect Day.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Greg Goss]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

>>Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
>>lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?
>>
>You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists

>so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, ...

The fact that everyone agrees on "core" is pretty much the definition
of "core".

[D B Davis]

Lynn also found _Legend_ objectionable. So later in the thread it was
replaced by _Molon Labe_ (Party).

In the end _Cat's Cradle_ was objectionable to me on the grounds that it
lacked dystopic rigor. So it was replaced by "Harrison Bergeron"
(Vonnegut).

Truth be known, _Flies_ also bugged /me/ from the get go. Fortunately my
unedited list is a rough draft. It actually contains twenty-one stories.
So we can just drop _Flies_ off on the editing room floor without the
need to find a replacement.

Thank you,

--
Don

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 2:01:33 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

> I am delighted you brought Mongo from this forum over the the astronomy
> forum

I cannot take credit for that. He came there of his own free will, and he
did so because your visit here renewed his awareness of your existence. I
have no control over his actions.

(To others reading this post: from another of his posts in this newsgroup,
the term "Mongo", referring to a character from the movie Blazing Saddles,
is being used to refer to GUCS.)

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Quaddie has a fan club, that consists of a syphilitic chihuahua on
crack, humping his pantleg.

I think Gerry is feeling a little put upon. Heh.

Gerald Kelleher <kellehe...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e51f7869-a449-4034...@googlegroups.com:

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:10:45 PM UTC-6, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:

> from
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dystopian
> dystopia
> a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.

Hmm. What do we here _think_ that dystopia means?

Dystopia: formed by analogy with utopia,
an imaginary society epitomizing an ultimate extreme of oppression, or
otherwise an extreme departure from what is appropriate for human well-
being, human dignity, or something else essential either for humans
themselves or for their ultimate purpose.

John Savard

[Gerald Kelleher]

Enduring your graffiti for years makes it no difference what barking fool you bring over to the astronomy forum as you both represent a lack of honour and integrity , merely different types of noise that may suit this science fantasy forum.

[Default User]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:03:31 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn". That
> we might not find a particular past society to our taste doesn't make
> stories placed in such societies by people living in those societies
> "dystopias".

In most dystopias, there are people who think it's just great. I doubt that Jim thought things were good, hence his attempt to find something better.


Brian

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <7dd0f95a-b9f4-4deb...@googlegroups.com>,

I agree HF is not a dystopia, but I don't follow that logic: Jim thinks
it's bad, so it's not a dystopia.

I don't think Winston Smith or Katniss were happy campers either..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[David Johnston]

Well put.

[David Johnston]

And I don't think things in the Syrian war zone or even a Mumbai are good. That doesn't make every novel in a modern setting a dystopia. There are no real societies where there is no element of that does not experience deprivation, suffering, a lack of safety. Dystopias must be worse than that for the word to have any meaning.

[Ahasuerus]

It's ... complicated. As volume 4 of "A Companion to British Literature"
put it, "as a literary practice, the dystopian narrative has been
notoriously different to pin down" (chapter "British Dystopian Novel
from Wells to Ishiguro", p. 455)

My personal criteria include:

* the described society is different from past and current societies
* the society is described in sufficient detail to allow the reader to
form an opinion about it
* the life of its inhabitants is shown to either (A) be generally
significantly worse than the life of the author's intended audience or
(B) have defining (or at least salient) features which are much worse
than the corresponding features of the societies in which the author's
intended audience lives

Of course, one person's "worse" is another person's "better", so I
generally go by what the author apparently intended.

[Robert Carnegie]

Does it have to be non-existent? Presumably
oppressive rulers first imagine the society
that they want to rule over, and then make it
real?

How many people have to be miserable?
Is Omelas a dystopia?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 7/20/17 9:58 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>
>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>

> Ah, an oh-fer[*].
>
> [*] Well, I once started _The Sheep Look Up_, but the only brunner
> I could finish was _Polymath_.
>


Heh. Despite my well-known hatred of dystopias, I've read several of
these. Though I dunno that I would call Pride and Prejudice dystopian,
but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

[John Dallman]

In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf
> -fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

Hmm, I seem to have read quite a lot of these: Atwood, Burdekin, Brunner,
Carter, Le Guin, Piercy, and Zamyatin.

The Burdekin, while quite obscure, is actually rather good. It reads
rather like Huxley's _Brave New World_, in that it's polemic, of a sort,
but has a decent story too.

John

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 2:23:09 PM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Is Omelas a dystopia?

Yes.

It is an extreme departure from ethical integrity, and humans who have
abandoned that are in an important respect not fulfilling their
purpose.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:25:24 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Oh, and I _have_ read We, in English translation. And I began the Handmaid's
> Tale, though I didn't get very far.

And I read "The Sheep Look Up".

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 1:47:30 PM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
> >lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?

> You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists

> so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
> few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
> but thank you for your concern.

Well, you are simply saying that these are books people should have on their
shelves - not that they are the very best books in that category. That does
make it legitimate that your lists don't closely resemble every one else's
lists of the *best* books in those categories.

There is some controversy over your use of "core" to describe the books in
your lists.

If it is taken as a claim that those particular books are the core of the
field, from which the other works of merit in that field derived... then,
indeed, there would be a reason for your list to look like the others.

However, I agree that this argument is not valid. You are using "core" as an
adjective and not a noun. Thus, it is not being claimed that those ten books
are _the_ core of the field, merely that they have the attribute of
core-ness; that they are *among* those in the core, but the core may contain
many others, including the "usual suspects".

Your disclaimer, though, only explicitly says that the books you list are not
the only ones that people should read or that have merit, it doesn't go as
far as to explicitly note that they're _also_ not the only ones at the core
of the field in question.

John Savard

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/7/17 12:10 pm, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:37:56 PM UTC+10, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> hamis...@gmail.com wrote in news:253931ba-3a8b-41e8-8561-0483c9a68ac6
>> @googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn".
>>>
>>> and?
>>
>> Like 'core', you seem to define 'dystopia' in a way thats not in the
>> dictionary.
>>
>> A dystopia is something deliberately and knowingly created by an
>> author. He or she decides to portray a crapsack world, by his or
>> her standards.
>
> from
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dystopian
> dystopia
> a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.

So. Definitely not P&P.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

Google says:
an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one.

Which eliminates more than a few from James' list.

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/7/17 4:21 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
>>
>> Lynn
>
> That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology

Nazi? You must be the only person who has read that without thinking of
the USSR.

whereas the Principia is science fiction based on astronomy, a
bluffing fest for voodoo merchants.
>
> You folk can't distinguish science fiction and science fantasy but then again intellectual pretense is fluff and tinsel for those who can't be inspired or inspiring (spiritual).
>

[J. Clarke]

In article <2017...@crcomp.net>, g...@crcomp.net says...

I think the problem with Flies is that it's too much of a microcosm--male
children marooned on an island. While it is a society, it is not one that
without outside intervention can exist for more than the lifetimes of its
inhabitants. One of the things that makes a dystopia a dystopia in my view
is that it's something that doesn't have a certain and spontaneous end.

[J. Clarke]

In article <etfl9a...@mid.individual.net>,
robertb...@iprimus.com.au says...

It certainly eliminates Brave New World and Logan's Run, in neither of
which is _everything_ unpleasant or bad.

By the way, that is not what Google says, it is what "Oxford Dictionaries"
says. Not "The Oxford English Dictionary" which is a 215 UKP/yr pay site,
but the freeware web version which I suspect has little relation to the
real thing.

[D B Davis]

Elsewhere in this thread you object to _Brave New World_ and _Logan's
Run_. So let's replace _Brave New World_ with "The Spires of Greme"
(Kenyon). And we'll replace _Logan's Run_ with _Ready Player One_
(Cline).

Thank you,

--
Don

[mcdow...@sky.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 8:47:30 PM UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <okqsqk$4rk$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On 7/20/2017 1:23 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> >> On 7/20/2017 8:41 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
> >>>
> >>>
> >http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
> >>>
> >>

> >> Wow, I have read none of these.
> >>
> >> Lynn

> >
> >Hi James, are you worried about destroying your credibility by creating
> >lists of fringe works and representing them as core works ?
> >
> You mean, as opposed to the more usual custom of composing core lists
> so similar to each other as to suggest plagiarism, filled with books
> few under 40 have read and fewer under 50 care to read? No, not particularly,
> but thank you for your concern.

> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

I worry that these posts would be misleading to somebody who was actually looking for a reading list of books influencing writers and readers. FWIW I am only clicking on this thread on Saturday morning as opposed to when I first saw the heading because James' credibility with me is not what it was.

[mcdow...@sky.com]

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:57:35 AM UTC+1, D B Davis wrote:
> Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:41:25 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
> >>
> >> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
> >

> > I have read 9:
> >
> > Atwood, Austen, Brunner, Jackson, LeGuin, Lee, Piercy, Takami (saw film), and
> > Zamyatin.
> >
> > Obvious actual core SF dystopias Jim skipped, in his usual way: '1984'
> > 'Brave New World', and 'Fahrenheit 451'.
> >
> > Personally, I can't consider the Austen a dystopia. To me, the author has to
> > buy in to the designation, otherwise the dystopianness of the book depends
> > solely on the attitudes of the reader. If P&P is dystopian, then nearly all
> > mimetic fiction written before about 1970 is dystopian - at least for some
> > readers, and more will become so as time passes.
>
> Those obvious dystopias are on my personal lits:

>
> _1984_ (Orwell)
> _Brave New World_ (Huxley)
> _Fahrenheit 451_ (Bradbury)
> "We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree)
> "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" (Ellison)
> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ (PKD)
> "The Lottery" (Jackson)
> _The Lathe of Heaven_ (Le Guin)
> _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ (Miller)
> _Time Machine_ (Wells)
> _Hunger Games_ (Collins)
> _A Clockwork Orange_ (Burgess)
> _Cloud Atlas_ (Mitchell)
> _Alongside Night_ (Schulman)
> _Atlas Shrugged_ (Rand)
> _Cat's Cradle_ (Vonnegut)
> _Logan's Run_ (Nolan and Johnson)
> _I Am Legend_ (Matheson)
> _Lord of the Flies_ (Golding)
> _Neuromancer_ (Gibson)
> _V for Vendetta_ (Moore and Lloyd)
>

> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

The Lathe of Heaven is a wonderful book, but I wouldn't confine it by describing it as a dystopia, mostly because I didn't read it as one. I read it as a pulp SF story, about an invention with unintended consequences - Haber is a mad scientist with an infernal machine, as one of the characters pretty much sarcastically says. You could argue that it is many dystopias - you see a world with overpopulation, a world with cancer of plague populations caused by pollution, a world with nuclear war, a world with alien attack, and so on - all in a very short novel. The only other multi-dystopia that comes to mind is Brin's Existence, which is much longer, partly a catalogue of future threats, and a book which I might reread one of these days for the good of my character if I am feeling strong.

[Gerald Kelleher]

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 1:44:18 AM UTC+1, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 21/7/17 4:21 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>
> >> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology
>
> Nazi? You must be the only person who has read that without thinking of
> the USSR.
>
>

You are thinking about the book 'Animal Farm' however the novel under discussion is based on Nazi ideology -

"Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as "the
truth" exists. [...] The implied objective of this line of thought is a
nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls
not only the future but the past. If the Leader says of such and such
an event, "It never happened"--well, it never happened. If he says that
two and two are five--well, two and two are five. This prospect
frightens me much more than bombs [...]" Orwell

The mentality that reigns here definitely suits this forum however not an astronomy forum by which two of your contributors lower the standards by different types of noise.

[Gerald Kelleher]

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 1:44:18 AM UTC+1, Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 21/7/17 4:21 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>
> >> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology
>
> Nazi? You must be the only person who has read that without thinking of
> the USSR.
>
>

Supplementing the last comment,a film director used that Nazi principle in his movie -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srHYSF3U1s

Royal Society empiricism created the horror of both the crematoria and the logic of invasion hence the dystopian society did occur albeit restricted to a nation.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <56234b9d-f86a-448a...@googlegroups.com>,

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>Is Omelas a dystopia?

Omelas is a utopia with a fatal flaw. Not quite the same thing.

--
David Goldfarb |"I want instant gratification -- and I'm
goldf...@gmail.com | willing to wait for it."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden

[Robert Carnegie]

On Saturday, 22 July 2017 09:15:05 UTC+1, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <56234b9d-f86a-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >Is Omelas a dystopia?
>
> Omelas is a utopia with a fatal flaw. Not quite the same thing.

So, does a dystopia involve everybody working
together to make one another unhappy? Tragedy
of the commons?

_Logan's Run_ involves everybody having a roaring
good time but neglecting to make any provision
for their old age. This is imprudent, and leads
to unhappiness, typically very brief and intense.

[J. Clarke]

No, I don't. I mentioned them to point out that the definition in the
previous post was badly flawed. There is consensus (not consensus of
readers of this newsgroup, general literary consensus) that Brave New World
is a dystopia. It is even given as an example of such by the same source
that contains the definition that would exclude it.
>
> Thank you,

[J. Clarke]

In article <9a970b31-1aba-4b6f...@googlegroups.com>,
rja.ca...@excite.com says...

"Neglecting to make any provision for their old age" is very misleading.
It's like saying that people over 35 in "Wild in the Streets" were in their
situation because they "neglected to make any provision for their old age".

[Carl Fink]

On 2017-07-22, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

> By the way, that is not what Google says, it is what "Oxford Dictionaries"
> says. Not "The Oxford English Dictionary" which is a 215 UKP/yr pay site,
> but the freeware web version which I suspect has little relation to the
> real thing.

I just happen to have access via my university. OED 3'd Edition says,
"noun: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. The opposite of
utopia."
--
Carl Fink nitpi...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

[J. Clarke]

In article <slrnon69r8...@panix2.panix.com>, ca...@panix.com says...

>
> On 2017-07-22, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > By the way, that is not what Google says, it is what "Oxford Dictionaries"
> > says. Not "The Oxford English Dictionary" which is a 215 UKP/yr pay site,
> > but the freeware web version which I suspect has little relation to the
> > real thing.
>
> I just happen to have access via my university. OED 3'd Edition says,
> "noun: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
> typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. The opposite of
> utopia."

Do they also have a quote about "Brave New World" further down? If so
their definition is self-contradictory.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:37:27 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <robertaw-DA4DCD...@news.individual.net>,

>Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>>In article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
>>> d-have-on-their-shelves
>>

>>Read two (a third has been buried in my unread pile for decades).
>>However, I must protest: _Pride and Prejudice_ is not a dystopia by
>>definition. It might be a pretty ugly world (especially behind the
>>scenes), but it was the one that actually existed..
>>
>Do dystopias need to be fictional?

No, per dictionary.com.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[J. Clarke]

In article <sje6nc1j60aic89c8...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
says...

"Dictionary.com" is as reliable as wikipedia. My Oxford (the paper one, in
many volumes) states that being "imaginary" is a necessary element of the
definition, however I have problems with other aspects of their
definition--they seem to think that a dystopia must have _no_ pleasant
elements.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:53:34 -0000 (UTC), D B Davis <g...@crcomp.net>
wrote:

>
>Peter Trei <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:41:25 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>

>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>>
>> I have read 9:
>>
>> Atwood, Austen, Brunner, Jackson, LeGuin, Lee, Piercy, Takami (saw film), and
>> Zamyatin.
>>
>> Obvious actual core SF dystopias Jim skipped, in his usual way: '1984'
>> 'Brave New World', and 'Fahrenheit 451'.
>>
>> Personally, I can't consider the Austen a dystopia. To me, the author has to
>> buy in to the designation, otherwise the dystopianness of the book depends
>> solely on the attitudes of the reader. If P&P is dystopian, then nearly all
>> mimetic fiction written before about 1970 is dystopian - at least for some
>> readers, and more will become so as time passes.
>

>Those obvious dystopias are on my personal lits:

>
>_1984_ (Orwell)
>_Brave New World_ (Huxley)
>_Fahrenheit 451_ (Bradbury)
>"We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree)
>"I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" (Ellison)
>_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ (PKD)
>"The Lottery" (Jackson)
>_The Lathe of Heaven_ (Le Guin)

Which of the worlds is a dystopia?

>_A Canticle for Leibowitz_ (Miller)
>_Time Machine_ (Wells)
>_Hunger Games_ (Collins)
>_A Clockwork Orange_ (Burgess)
>_Cloud Atlas_ (Mitchell)
>_Alongside Night_ (Schulman)
>_Atlas Shrugged_ (Rand)
>_Cat's Cradle_ (Vonnegut)
>_Logan's Run_ (Nolan and Johnson)
>_I Am Legend_ (Matheson)
>_Lord of the Flies_ (Golding)
>_Neuromancer_ (Gibson)
>_V for Vendetta_ (Moore and Lloyd)

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Jack Bohn]

Carl Fink wrote:

> On 2017-07-22, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > By the way, that is not what Google says, it is what "Oxford Dictionaries"
> > says. Not "The Oxford English Dictionary" which is a 215 UKP/yr pay site,
> > but the freeware web version which I suspect has little relation to the
> > real thing.
>
> I just happen to have access via my university. OED 3'd Edition says,
> "noun: an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
> typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. The opposite of
> utopia."

I would say that definition is missing a didactic purpose in dystopian fiction: are there any *not* written as a warning against the ideas or actions that lead to them? Alien occupation, I suppose, so I will define those as not dystopias, no matter what conditions our alien overlords (whom I welcome) impose.

Are dystopias a rejection of cultural relativism? Are the societies viewed by the author as evil? Life among the Fremen on Dune holds little attraction, except maybe as an alternative to death, but it doesn't make the list of dystopias, because its hardships are portrayed as necessary in the environment. "The Marching Morons" is an unpleasant future, (for whom? see the didactic purpose: for the intended audience) but a dystopia? The majority are healthy and happy, and not oppressing the minority out of malice, or even indifference.

--
-Jack

[D B Davis]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 7/20/17 9:58 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>>> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>>>
>>> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
>>
>> Ah, an oh-fer[*].
>>
>> [*] Well, I once started _The Sheep Look Up_, but the only brunner
>> I could finish was _Polymath_.
>>
>
>
> Heh. Despite my well-known hatred of dystopias, I've read several of
> these. Though I dunno that I would call Pride and Prejudice dystopian,
> but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.
>

Dystophilia's a guilty pleasure for me. OTOH it's ironic how often
dystopic scenarios rear their fugly heads in my real life. ROTFL.

Thank you,

--
Don

[D B Davis]

OK. Sorry. But those two dusty stories needed to get dropped anyhow. So
it's all good in the end. ;0)

Thank you,

--
Don

[D B Davis]

> The Lathe of Heaven is a wonderful book, but I wouldn't confine it by
> describing it as a dystopia, mostly because I didn't read it as one. I
> read it as a pulp SF story, about an invention with unintended
> consequences - Haber is a mad scientist with an infernal machine, as
> one of the characters pretty much sarcastically says. You could argue
> that it is many dystopias - you see a world with overpopulation, a
> world with cancer of plague populations caused by pollution, a world
> with nuclear war, a world with alien attack, and so on - all in a very
> short novel. The only other multi-dystopia that comes to mind is Brin's
> Existence, which is much longer, partly a catalogue of future threats,
> and a book which I might reread one of these days for the good of my
> character if I am feeling strong.

OK. _Lathe of Heaven_'s toast. It gets replace by _The Day the Dollar
Died_ (Galt). Did you catch the pseudonym of the author in parens?
ROTFLMAO. That's a popular title, so make sure you get the story written
by John Galt and no other:

https://tensmiths.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/thedaythedollardiedbyjohngalt.pdf

Thank you,

--
Don

[D B Davis]

Good question, but it's a moot point now. _Lathe_, along with many
other titles, was in my list only because it was popular with lots of
Other People who included it in /their/ Dystopic Lists. But, _Lathe_
just got replaced by _The Day the Dollar Died_ (Galt) elsewhere in this
thread.

Thank you,

--
Don

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-07-20, Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:37:30 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> Do dystopias need to be fictional?
>

> In this case, your page says "Speculative Fiction Works about Dystopias" so,
> yeah fiction.

I must protest your interpretation, sir! P&P _is_ a work of fiction. The title
does not say the dystopia itself also has to be fictional.

> And where is the "speculative" in P&P (without zombies anyway).

... you're aware that none of the events actually took place, and that Ms.
Austen was writing about a somewhat idealized version of said dystopia, are you
not? "Let's shine up the edges of this true-life situation" is speculative just
as much as "let's set this historical piece in the 24th and a half century!".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-07-21, Cryptoengineer <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hamis...@gmail.com wrote in news:253931ba-3a8b-41e8-8561-0483c9a68ac6
> @googlegroups.com:
>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:03:31 PM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> If Pride and Prejudice is a "dystopia" then so is "Huckleberry Finn".
>>
>> and?
>
> Like 'core', you seem to define 'dystopia' in a way thats not in the
> dictionary.

'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master --
that's all.'

Dave, it does not have dental care, nor vaccination, nor even the auto-mobile

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-07-22, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>Is Omelas a dystopia?
>
> Omelas is a utopia with a fatal flaw. Not quite the same thing.

ObSF: Sucharitkul's Inquestor series, where one of the overarching society's
premises is that every utopia has such a flaw ... and that therefore utopian
worlds must be hunted and their societies destroyed.

Dave, you find the flaw, and snap! the job's a game!

[J. Clarke]

In article <p6KdnWi67_M25e7E...@earthlink.com>,
davidd...@earthlink.net says...

>
> On 2017-07-20, Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:37:30 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> Do dystopias need to be fictional?
> >
> > In this case, your page says "Speculative Fiction Works about Dystopias" so,
> > yeah fiction.
>
> I must protest your interpretation, sir! P&P _is_ a work of fiction. The title
> does not say the dystopia itself also has to be fictional.
>
> > And where is the "speculative" in P&P (without zombies anyway).
>
> ... you're aware that none of the events actually took place, and that Ms.
> Austen was writing about a somewhat idealized version of said dystopia, are you
> not? "Let's shine up the edges of this true-life situation" is speculative just
> as much as "let's set this historical piece in the 24th and a half century!".

OK, so how do you distinguish "speculative fiction" from fiction that is
not speculative?

And how do you distinguish a "dystopia" from a contemporary novel?

It amazes me the determination with which some people will try to dilute
the meanings of words to the point that they become meaningless.

[Wolffan]

On 2017 Jul 20, James Nicoll wrote
(in article <okqbu1$r9u$1...@reader2.panix.com>):

> Twenty Core Dystopias Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
>
> http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-dystopias-every-true-sf-fan-shoul
> d-have-on-their-shelves

never read even one.

[Cryptoengineer]

Robert Bannister <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in
news:etfleu...@mid.individual.net:

> On 21/7/17 4:21 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology
>
> Nazi? You must be the only person who has read that without thinking
> of the USSR.

Including Orwell, who wrote of his work:

"[Nineteen Eighty-Four] was based chiefly on communism, because that is
the dominant form of totalitarianism, but I was trying chiefly to imagine
what communism would be like if it were firmly rooted in the English
speaking countries, and was no longer a mere extension of the Russian
Foreign Office."

- from a letter to Sidney Sheldon

Here we see just how good a researcher Kelleher is.

pt

[Default User]

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 11:09:24 AM UTC-5, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > And where is the "speculative" in P&P (without zombies anyway).
>
> ... you're aware that none of the events actually took place, and that Ms.
> Austen was writing about a somewhat idealized version of said dystopia, are you
> not? "Let's shine up the edges of this true-life situation" is speculative just
> as much as "let's set this historical piece in the 24th and a half century!".

"Speculative fiction" is a phrase, not a coincidental juxtaposition of two words. On this newsgroup it's shorthand for "science fiction and/or fantasy", used mainly to allow the discussion of various fictional works without having to draw the rather hazy line between the two. It also fits the "sf" in the newsgroup title.

Taking the individual words and pummeling the definitions to allow almost any written work to fit doesn't really aid in the discussion.


Brian

[David Johnston]

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 10:09:24 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, Default User <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:37:30 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> Do dystopias need to be fictional?
> >
> > In this case, your page says "Speculative Fiction Works about Dystopias" so,
> > yeah fiction.
>
> I must protest your interpretation, sir! P&P _is_ a work of fiction. The title
> does not say the dystopia itself also has to be fictional.
>
> > And where is the "speculative" in P&P (without zombies anyway).
>
> ... you're aware that none of the events actually took place, and that Ms.
> Austen was writing about a somewhat idealized version of said dystopia, are you
> not?

By definition if the author is idealizing their society they are not writing a dystopia.

[Cryptoengineer]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:p6KdnWq67_OP5-7E...@earthlink.com:

> On 2017-07-22, David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>Is Omelas a dystopia?
>>
>> Omelas is a utopia with a fatal flaw. Not quite the same thing.
>
> ObSF: Sucharitkul's Inquestor series, where one of the overarching
> society's premises is that every utopia has such a flaw ... and that
> therefore utopian worlds must be hunted and their societies destroyed.
>
> Dave, you find the flaw, and snap! the job's a game!

While I haven't read those works, I'm sympathetic to the idea. The
problem is, Utopias are stagnant, and can't adapt when the world changes.

Here's a thought. The ur-Utopia, Thomas More's, features slavery and
frequent forced relocation of the populace. It also harshly punishes
premarital sex and adultery, and forces wives to confess to their
husbands.

If James can consider P&P a dystopia, I'd suggest that by his lights,
More's Utopia should be on the list as well.

pt

[Robert Carnegie]

On Saturday, 22 July 2017 09:43:42 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Saturday, 22 July 2017 09:15:05 UTC+1, David Goldfarb wrote:
> > In article <56234b9d-f86a-448a...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >Is Omelas a dystopia?
> >
> > Omelas is a utopia with a fatal flaw. Not quite the same thing.
>
> So, does a dystopia involve everybody working
> together to make one another unhappy? Tragedy
> of the commons?

hmm. According to
<https://www.bl.uk/20th-century-literature/articles/freedom-or-oppression-the-fear-of-dystopia>
it seems that the word was invented to mean
"a utopia which doesn't work, which is all of them."
"Natural law" is mentioned as a factor ignored;
perhaps this is considered to include human nature.

[Gerald Kelleher]

If that is what he wrote then so be it however the phrasing most associated with the novel was to be found in that passage with a totalitarian society -

http://www.lexrex.com/informed/historicalfact.htm

Even Nazi ideology and to an extent Communist ideology is based on Royal Society empiricism which justified extermination and invasion but rewrote its own history after the Nazi ideology was defeated and communism dwindled .

“Truly, this earth is a trophy cup for the industrious man. And this rightly so, in the service of natural selection. He who does not possess the force to secure his Lebensraum in this world, and, if necessary, to enlarge it, does not deserve to possess the necessities of life. He must step aside and allow stronger peoples to pass him by.”
― Adolf Hitler

For people who pretend to know so much you understand so little so when a few of your strays makes it into an astronomy forum and makes a nuisance of themselves by histrionics or by mindnumbing trivia then I understand why they are that way.

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/7/17 9:21 am, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <etfl9a...@mid.individual.net>,
> robertb...@iprimus.com.au says...
>>
>> On 21/7/17 11:57 pm, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:10:45 PM UTC-6, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> from
>>>> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dystopian
>>>> dystopia
>>>> a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
>>>
>>> Hmm. What do we here _think_ that dystopia means?
>>>
>>> Dystopia: formed by analogy with utopia,
>>> an imaginary society epitomizing an ultimate extreme of oppression, or
>>> otherwise an extreme departure from what is appropriate for human well-
>>> being, human dignity, or something else essential either for humans
>>> themselves or for their ultimate purpose.

>>
>> Google says:
>> an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
>> typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one.
>>

>> Which eliminates more than a few from James' list.
>
> It certainly eliminates Brave New World and Logan's Run, in neither of
> which is _everything_ unpleasant or bad.

I would have thought that everything ordered by the state in those two
books was pretty unpleasant from the point of view of *some* of the
characters. That is, the ruling group, and there usually is one, don't
have to follow the same diet, so they're pretty happy.

>
> By the way, that is not what Google says, it is what "Oxford Dictionaries"
> says. Not "The Oxford English Dictionary" which is a 215 UKP/yr pay site,
> but the freeware web version which I suspect has little relation to the
> real thing.
>
>
>
>

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

In what way? There are not many characters in BNW who are happy when
they're not doped up, and it's definitely a totalitarian government.

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/7/17 2:37 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 1:44:18 AM UTC+1, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 21/7/17 4:21 pm, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 1:28:12 AM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>> _1984_ is very dystopic though.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> That novel is science fiction based on Nazi ideology
>>
>> Nazi? You must be the only person who has read that without thinking of
>> the USSR.
>>
>>
>

> You are thinking about the book 'Animal Farm' however the novel under discussion is based on Nazi ideology -
>
> "Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as "the
> truth" exists. [...] The implied objective of this line of thought is a
> nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls
> not only the future but the past. If the Leader says of such and such
> an event, "It never happened"--well, it never happened. If he says that
> two and two are five--well, two and two are five. This prospect
> frightens me much more than bombs [...]" Orwell

That may well be what the author intended, but I read 1984 long before
Animal Farm - early 50s when I was at school and not all that long after
WW2 - and the USSR is what it meant for me. In particular, the use of
language and the rewriting of history as well as for the informers and
secret police. Of course, the Trump era may eventually be remembered for
the latter.

>
> The mentality that reigns here definitely suits this forum however not an astronomy forum by which two of your contributors lower the standards by different types of noise.

[J. Clarke]

In article <etiah4...@mid.individual.net>,
robertb...@iprimus.com.au says...

Read it again. And yes, it's a totalitarian government, so what? Having a
totalitarian government doesn't mean that _everything_ is bad or
unpleasant.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/20/2017 7:47 PM, Carl Fink wrote:
> I'm astonished that in this newsgroup so few have read *Lathe*.

Send it to me ! I've only got 500 books in my SBR (strategic book
reserve). I should get to it in a few years.
https://www.amazon.com/Lathe-Heaven-Ursula-K-Guin/dp/1416556966/

Lynn

[Titus G]

480 of those 500 will be minor variations of "oh damn, somehow the
supermarket and the airport have been destroyed so how do we get home
without starving?", so a change would probably be enjoyable. I say
probably because I can't remember any LeGuins but earlier this year
re-read some of the Earthsea Wizard serirs following recommendations
here and although not a lot happened, the writing was pleasurably superb.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 07:47:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In article <sje6nc1j60aic89c8...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
>says...
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:37:27 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>> Nicoll) wrote:

[snip]

>> >Do dystopias need to be fictional?
>>
>> No, per dictionary.com.
>
>"Dictionary.com" is as reliable as wikipedia. My Oxford (the paper one, in
>many volumes) states that being "imaginary" is a necessary element of the
>definition, however I have problems with other aspects of their
>definition--they seem to think that a dystopia must have _no_ pleasant
>elements.

I just bought a used Compact OED (two volumes and the magnifying
glass), and it does not have the word. It dates from 1971 so that
might be why.

Words do get extended in meaning though, and I can this happening
with "dystopia" (assuming it ever did have imaginary as part of the
definition).

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[J. Clarke]

In article <2ub8nctgm07io7664...@4ax.com>, ge...@telus.net
says...

It occurs to me that there are two usages now. One might say that "Brave
New World" is a dystopia, and one may say that North Korea is a dystopia.
In the one case the reference is to a literary genre and the other is to an
actual society that shares many aspects of the ones that have appeared in
literature.