Robert and Me (long)
Aaron Bergman
The Rise and Fall of Robert Jordan
It's difficult to review a series that has encompassed almost one's
entire adult life. With the publication of the tenth novel and still not
an end in sight, Jordan's work is an edifice at the center of modern
fantasy. Though predated by Eddings, Brooks and others, Jordan is one of
the few (the only?) to reach number one on the New York Times bestseller
list. I don't think it is unwarranted to ascribe the plethora of thick
fantasy novels that now populate the field to the sales of "The Wheel of
Time". Jordan's commercial success has had a huge influence on the
practice of modern fantasy. It seems clear, however, that this pinnacle
has not been kind to Robert Jordan. Though the devoted fandom that has
accrued around the novels will no doubt continue to exist, there is
widespread dissatisfaction with his recent offerings. What follows is my
perspective on the rise and fall of Robert Jordan. I think that it is a
story that gives some insight into the price of fame, the manageability
of a truly massive story and, perhaps most significantly, the
interaction of an author, his fans and the role that the internet can
play.
I first picked up _The Eye of the World_ in high school. I had never
read Tolkien (I still haven't to this day), but I had devoured Eddings
and was finally growing out of the Piers Anthony stage that afflicted
all too many of us. I can't say that Jordan was a revelation -- the
farmboy savior plot is too universal -- but Jordan seemed to work on a
larger scale than what I had encountered before. What began as a simple
quest fantasy soon encompassed a larger world full of politics,
villians, and history. The novels were no longer straightforward quest
fantasy; they spread out into multiple threads each exploring the world,
unfolding mysteries, eventually culminating into events of mythic
consequences. The central aspect of the books became story of the world
and its savior. This is hardly original ground, of course, but I didn't
know it at the time. Even so, I still believe that Jordan covered that
ground better than most of the massive fantasies out there. Epic
fantasy, much derided though it is, is still difficult to pull off well.
Jordan was completely engrossing, and he tweaked the sense of wonder
masterfully. I read the books more times than I'd like to admit.
My discovery of Jordan was also around the time that I discovered online
fandom. My "Applelink: The Personal Edition" account morphed into
America On-Line and suddenly there were people with which to discuss the
novels. More than that, there were things to discuss. Besides just
trading fannish inanities or engaging in protracted discussions on
whether or not Jordan's books were better than _The Lord of the Rings_,
Jordan's novels offered something I hadn't encountered before. They
were, in many ways, enormous puzzles. Riddled with ancient prophecies,
dreams of foretelling and even images literally floating around people's
heads, the books were a goldmine for anyone interested in investigation
and discovery. It was clear that there was a method to the madness.
Things clearly fit together, and, with work, much could be discerned. On
the online fora, prophecies were discussed, ironic foreshadowing was
ferreted out and secret identities were revealed. Even before I
discovered the internet, people on AOL had compiled every prophetic
statement in the book and offered interpretations.
On the internet, the discussion of Jordan's books took up an impressive
portion of rec.arts.sf.written. I obtained my first account during the
age of "JORDAN:" and all the assorted troubles that went along with
that. It was here that the massive FAQ was born. Many hundreds of
kilobytes long, it is was and still is an extensive exegesis of the many
mysteries that course through the novels. The FAQ also served as a place
to send people newly arrived with their discoveries of things well-known
to the group's denizens, both rasfw and later
rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan. The sheer number of people that
arrived to these groups full of their desire to share their discoveries
with the world exemplifies the fact that, more than just being about
plot and scenery, the success of Jordan is related to the fact that he
mined the pleasure of finding things out. Not only were there the
traditional joys of fantasy, there was the satisfaction of a mystery
solved. The fact that each book provided more information, more puzzles
and even the occasional solution couldn't help but drive sales further.
These are the things that put Jordan at the top of bestseller lists. All
the aspects of his works had been done before, but he did it all, he did
it well and he did it in quantity. The audience for epic fantasy has
always existed since Tolkien, but Jordan did more than just satisfy his
audience. In many ways, he has defined it. One only has to look at
recent releases like _The Fifth Sorceress_ to see that Jordan's audience
is still being courted. Even old hands like George R. R. Martin and
others (often under a psuedonym) have jumped on the bandwagon. It is
hard to go to the bookstore these days without seeing some new entry
into the circle of massive fantasies.
Before much of this happened, however, when Jordan was big but not
enormous, there began to be problems. Deadlines weren't met. _Lord of
Chaos_ was released in what felt like an incomplete state. There were
typos. The ending felt tacked on. My review back then was that nothing
had happened in the novel. Nothing had happened, but it was still
enjoyable. Little did I know then.
For me, the story of Jordan after _Lord of Chaos_ is a story of growing
disenchantment. _A Crown of Swords_ felt like a completion of _Lord of
Chaos_. _The Path of Daggers_ was an unsatisfying place holder.
_Winter's Heart_ was a step up, but not a return to the heights of the
early novels. It dithered around for a while, but something significant
eventually did occur. This brings us to the latest entry, _The
Crossroads of Twilight_. 700 pages of nothing. The writing was smooth,
but that can't make up for the utter lack of a plot. The book has
essentially no reason to exist.
What happened? I don't know for sure, of course, but I have my guesses.
The two things that are most clear are that Jordan lost control of his
story and that he began to communicate with his fans. For the former,
Jordan had quite a task set before him. The large cast of characters and
multiple disparate threads became unwieldy. The events that Jordan had
carefully foreshadowed needed resolution, but there were a multitude of
things that needed to be accomplished. People needed to get where they
had to go, and Jordan decided to tell us everything that happened along
the way. Worse, a funny thing began to happened. People got sidetracked.
Unnecessary side trips multiplied. Even that, however, was better than
the utter lack of plot development in the latest offering. The brakes
have been on for a while, but the finally train has ground to a halt.
I think it's writer's block of a sort. rather than the ubiquitous
braineater. The books have been long in coming recently, but not long in
content. With such an extended buildup, it feels as if Jordan is
unwilling to tackle the big foreshadowed scenes. With the pressure to
put out a new book every so often, however, this is what we end up with:
scenery and character relocation. Recently, Jordan has announced that he
will alternate writing prequels with novels that further the sequence.
Some have suggested that this means that Jordan is just in it for the
money now, milking the series for all its worth. I don't believe that.
Instead, I can't help but believe that it has all gotten away from him.
Perhaps the task was too big. Jordan has repeatedly said that he knows
the last scene, where he wants to get to, but he is not sure how to get
there. I think now that Jordan knows many scenes, but he cannot
consummate them; he doesn't know hot to get to any of them. It may be
that the distraction of the sequels will allow a resurgence of the
series. George Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" now also seems to be
undergoing a worrisome elongation. Perhaps the writing of the modern
bricklike epic is more of a challenge than one might think.
Nonetheless there is more to this story. At some point, Jordan started
to hold online chats about the novels, on AOL, Compuserve and elswhere.
He held court to a barrage of questions there, at signings and probably
also in the mail. He became aware the FAQ. Most importantly, he clearly
enjoyed it immensely. The idea of hundreds of thousands of people poring
over his novels and trying to solve his puzzles was obviously appealing.
His "read and find out" response on the online chats was soon shortened
to "RAFO", and it was his most common response. At some point, I can
only speculate, his perception of himself as puzzlemaster began to
interfere with the writing of the books. Rather than being integrated
into the plot, the puzzles began to exist solely for their own sakes.
Much of this is best exemplified in a quote from the glossary of the
latest book:
Recently, a man calling himself Moridin has appeared, and seems to be
yet another of the dead Forsaken brought back from the grave by the
Dark One. The same may be possible regarding the woman calling herself
Cyndane, but since Aran'gar was a man brought back as a woman,
speculation as to the original identities of Moridin and Cyndane may
prove futile until more is learned.
There are obvious choices for the identities of Moridin and Cyndane, and
Jordan surely knows what they are. This statement is simply a tease and
strongly indicative of Jordan's almost adversarial attitude towards his
readership. After a while, there were too many mysteries that had little
reason to exist. It got tedious. It also seems that Jordan does not want
to give up his puzzles. His attitude seems to be that he can tease us
just a little bit longer. And as he does this, the books just get longer
and longer.
The major example of fan interaction with an author on the internet has
to be that of J. Michael Straczynski and the television show Babylon 5.
It constitutes another instance where the direct contact of the author
with his fans interfered with the storytelling. For Straczyniski, it led
to a defensiveness stemming from contact with what were essentially
online stalkers. Through a series of events, this culminated in an
insulation from criticism and an inability to recognize how he had
overextended himself. Jordan, of course, did not have to deal with
criticism in his chats; all he saw was adulation. The connection here is
that too much close contact with a devoted fandom seems to lead to
authorial hubris. The ego reigns a bit too freely, and the work suffers.
I cannot speak to how universal this phenomenon is as different authors
will assuredly react differently to the same set of circumstances. What
is clear is that the internet is bringing authors and their fans much
closer together and it can have large negative consequences. [1]
There is one final thing I am neglecting, and it could be the most
important. That thing is that, in the decade or so since I began this
series, I have grown a tad older. I bought the first book in high school
and am now fast approaching the end of graduate school. My tastes have
changed significantly over that time. This obviously an element of my
dissatisfaction with the series; I may not longer be part of the target
audience. I lean against the significance of this, however. I'm still a
sucker for epic fantasy, bildungsroman and the farmer with a destiny. It
has to be a bit better written than once it could be, but Jordan has
always been a better writer than he appears at first glance. Never
really a prose stylist, he still presents his vision -- when he has it
-- better than many out there. More than that, Jordan's work is not
generic. It is more than a continual quest. I have not read the
beginning books in quite a while -- they're in boxes somewhere now --
but I tend to believe that, unlike many of the books of those years,
they would hold up to rereadings. Frankly, I still believe that Jordan
did a pretty damn good job with those books. However, the barbarians are
at the gates, now, and the empire teeters on the edge of collapse. The
inertia and the initial investment keeps me reading the series, and I
don't doubt I'll buy the next in hardcover, but little joy remains. The
long anticipation is no longer a part of my life. Robert Jordan is not
quite dead, but he has been falling for quite a long time now. I do wish
he could rise again, though, if only just a little. After all, I still
want to know how it all turns out.
[1] The situation of cons seems to be an analogous situation, but one
about which I know little.
--
Aaron Bergman
<http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/>
<http://aleph.blogspot.com>
Michelle J. Haines
aber...@princeton.edu says...
>
> The major example of fan interaction with an author on the internet has
> to be that of J. Michael Straczynski and the television show Babylon 5.
> It constitutes another instance where the direct contact of the author
> with his fans interfered with the storytelling.
See Also: Sorkin, Aaron; reference The West Wing and Television
Without Pity.
Michelle
Flutist
--
"Daddy, sometimes schoolwork is better than eating!"
-- Katrina M. Haines, 01-09-03
Mark Hanson
Huzzah!
Well thought out, well written. You could have taken the words out of my own
mouth. I too was once an eager fan -- though I started about 3 years after
you did -- and now don't really care all that much, though I read each new
book anyway. It's vaguely analagous to each new Star Wars prequel that gets
churned out every three years: you know it isn't going to be very good; you
suspect next to nothing will be resolved; yet you read it anyway because of
all the time and effort you've already invested in the story.
I believe someone once said that it's easier to write something long than
something short, and this could be proof positive of that.
Mark
Ilya Popov
"Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
>
Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding properly
the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what occured between
MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and not have me bite, you
know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and Farscape, leastways.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
David Chapman
> "Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
> news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
>> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
>>
> <snip>
>
> Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
> seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding
> properly the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what
> occured between MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and
> not have me bite, you know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and
> Farscape, leastways.
Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
Farscape sucked ass, BTW.
--
Dark don't lie, dreams come true
Could be a few will see you through
Louann Miller
wrote:
>
>"Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
>news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
>> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
>>
><snip>
>
>Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
>seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding properly
>the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what occured between
>MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and not have me bite, you
>know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and Farscape, leastways.
I'd like to hear more detail on that as well. I haven't read Jordan,
so I can't comment on the main part of your post.
My take on B5 is that JMS had one good story to tell, and told it very
successfully. In the first four seasons of B5. And everything else in
the same universe since has been at best a place-holder. He's got this
well worked out background and some events that we know take place
against it (the plague on Earth, etc.) but somehow none of them
translate into actual stories.
Louann
Aaron Bergman
"Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com> wrote:
> "Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
> news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
> > [what happens when you have way too much free time]
> >
> <snip>
>
> Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
> seasons,
That's a good time to stop.
> so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding properly
> the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what occured between
> MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and not have me bite, you
> know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and Farscape, leastways.
It was a long time ago, but there were a lot of people out there
stalking JMS and eventually he just stopped listening to anything
negative said about the show. There was a weird social dynamic going on
in rastb5 at the end and it always seemed to me that it had an effect on
JMS. To be honest, however, a lot of the details that would have
supported this have escaped me by now.
Aaron
Ilya Popov
"David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
news:avu9u3$jl9m9$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de...
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>
> > "Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
> > news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
> >> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
> > Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
> > seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding
> > properly the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what
> > occured between MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and
> > not have me bite, you know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and
> > Farscape, leastways.
>
> Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
Haven't seen season 5 yet.
> Farscape sucked ass, BTW.
Eh. I enjoyed it.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
>
Feisal Schlee
"Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:72DU9.666654$P31.498961@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
>
> Haven't seen season 5 yet.
Don't see it. Just forget ever having heard that there is a season 5.
Ilya Popov
news:avv70j$5j8$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
Was season 5 really that bad? The first season was touch and go, but 2-4
seemed fairly top notch. What's so bad about the fifth? Or did the JMS/Fan
collision that Aaron mentioned have an adverse effect on the final season?
David Chapman
> "David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
> news:avu9u3$jl9m9$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de...
>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>>
>>> "Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
>>>> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
>>> seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding
>>> properly the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what
>>> occured between MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and
>>> not have me bite, you know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and
>>> Farscape, leastways.
>>
>> Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
>
> Haven't seen season 5 yet.
Season 5 is OK, but you *could* theoretically stand to
miss every ep except the last (which was filmed during S4).
Me, I watched it anyway.
The main reason for the changes in S5 - and the death of
Crusade - was the move to TNT. For a start, they lost a
full shooting day on each ep due to budget cuts. That in
turn shortened the turnaround on getting the scripts in.
Then, Ted Turner kept butting in; he didn't try and have
*too* much gratuitous sex added to B5 because it wasn't
an original Turner property and he didn't want to disrupt
the fanbase - though the difference is visible - but when he
got a show all his own (Crusade) he wanted to have T&A
everywhere. At that point JMS took his ball and went home
rather than have his story ruined.
Incidentally, for those of you who read Straczynski's fine
comic Rising Stars, that's why the renegade Specials take
over Chicago and why the Turner Building is about the
first thing destroyed.
>> Farscape sucked ass, BTW.
>
> Eh. I enjoyed it.
Undoubtedly it's your Hitlerian non-sig-snipping ways. I
thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except
with Muppets.
Feisal Schlee
Ok, maybe not *that* bad, but it's not nearly as good as the others
and adds nothing to the story.
Ilya Popov
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>
> > "David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
> > news:avu9u3$jl9m9$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de...
> >> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
> >>
> >>> "Aaron Bergman" <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
> >>> news:abergman-8F10C4.20571412012003@localhost...
> >>>> [what happens when you have way too much free time]
> >>>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
> >>> seasons, so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding
> >>> properly the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what
> >>> occured between MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and
> >>> not have me bite, you know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and
> >>> Farscape, leastways.
> >>
> >> Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
> >
> > Haven't seen season 5 yet.
>
> Season 5 is OK, but you *could* theoretically stand to
> miss every ep except the last (which was filmed during S4).
> Me, I watched it anyway.
I have seen Sleeping in Light. Loved the hell out of that ep.
> The main reason for the changes in S5 - and the death of
> Crusade - was the move to TNT. For a start, they lost a
> full shooting day on each ep due to budget cuts. That in
> turn shortened the turnaround on getting the scripts in.
> Then, Ted Turner kept butting in; he didn't try and have
> *too* much gratuitous sex added to B5 because it wasn't
> an original Turner property and he didn't want to disrupt
> the fanbase - though the difference is visible - but when he
> got a show all his own (Crusade) he wanted to have T&A
> everywhere. At that point JMS took his ball and went home
> rather than have his story ruined.
Who originally aired B5? The Scifi Channel?
>
> Incidentally, for those of you who read Straczynski's fine
> comic Rising Stars, that's why the renegade Specials take
> over Chicago and why the Turner Building is about the
> first thing destroyed.
>
>
> >> Farscape sucked ass, BTW.
> >
> > Eh. I enjoyed it.
>
> Undoubtedly it's your Hitlerian non-sig-snipping ways.
My what?
> I thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except with
Muppets.
That's rather besides the point. That kind of accusation can be made of just
about anything these days.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
>
Ilya Popov
My understanding of B5 was that the main story was the Shadow War, and S5
displayed the repercussions of that war, while also wrapping up various
loose ends and threads that developed during the previous 4 seasons.
André Fürstenrecht
wrote:
A slight difference. B5 was great sci-fi because unlike so many it had
a story arc (the Shadow war/taking back earth) rather then 'days of
our life' in space like Star Trek et al. It's problem wasn't slow
resolution to achieving it's goals, it was having a fifth series when
there was no reason to (and Crusades, tele-movies etc. - though as a
fan I enjoyed them).
I'd much rather have Jordan in that situation where he'd finished WoT
in good time and was now trying to milk us for the 4 or 5th WoT spin
off book or "WoT - the years after the last battle" then the glacial
advancement towards the Last Battle.
Even though the fifth season of B5 was not upto the caliber of the
first four or the telemovies or Crusades/Legends, because they were
released after the main story of series 1 - 4 was completed I enoyed
them. If they'd been done during those seasons I'd have screamed like
I scream about the non-essential plots of Elayne outwitting the 75th
andorian noble in a week, how clever random Jane AS is (whilst acting
like a 5 yr. old girl) etc.
JMS has kept a dedicated fan base happy by trying to tell more stories
in a 'completed' universe, RJ is never completing his universe (or
main story therein). Both approaches would sell about the same, the
former though results in happy fans, the latter in disgruntled. RJ,
Tor get a clue and spin off the Elayne politics and other irritating
plot lines into a new book written AFTER WoT and keep your fans happy
instead of trying to piss them off. You'll make just as much cash and
not be cursed in so many homes in so many countries.
André
David Chapman
WB Network, I think. Of course, if we're talking S5
then the UK's Channel 4 got the world premiere of the
last five eps (bwahahaaa).
>>>> Farscape sucked ass, BTW.
>>>
>>> Eh. I enjoyed it.
>>
>> Undoubtedly it's your Hitlerian non-sig-snipping ways.
>
> My what?
You know - the way you don't snip sigs the way you're
supposed to.
>
>> I thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except with
> Muppets.
>
> That's rather besides the point. That kind of accusation can be made
> of just about anything these days.
X-Files Season 10: to cover up Gillian Anderson's leaving
the show, a horrible genetic accident turns Scully into an
anthropomorphic pig.
"Hi-YAP!"
Feisal Schlee
Yes, more or less. It feels like the last part of LoTR after the One Ring
is destroyed exept that I didn't like it nearly as much.
Ilya Popov
I know it's common practice, but I only snip them when they're excessively
long. If it's one or two lines underneath the name, I would contest that
it's acceptable to leave them be.
> >> I thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except with
> > Muppets.
> >
> > That's rather besides the point. That kind of accusation can be made
> > of just about anything these days.
>
> X-Files Season 10: to cover up Gillian Anderson's leaving
> the show, a horrible genetic accident turns Scully into an
> anthropomorphic pig.
> "Hi-YAP!"
An image unwanted in my already soiled mind...
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
>
Sean O'Hara
>
> In article <fsuU9.663715$%m4.33...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
> "Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com> wrote:
>
> > Curious about the Babylon 5 parallel? I've seen four out of the five
> > seasons,
>
> That's a good time to stop.
>
series finale.
> > so perhaps I've still a ways to go before understanding properly
> > the connexion between the two, but I'm curious as to what occured between
> > MJS and the fans. You can't tease me like that and not have me bite, you
> > know, not when it pertains to Babylon 5 and Farscape, leastways.
>
> It was a long time ago, but there were a lot of people out there
> stalking JMS and eventually he just stopped listening to anything
> negative said about the show. There was a weird social dynamic going on
> in rastb5 at the end and it always seemed to me that it had an effect on
> JMS. To be honest, however, a lot of the details that would have
> supported this have escaped me by now.
>
I think the disconnect between JMS and the fanbase really started
with the creation of rastb5.mod. The purported reason for the new
group was to keep JMS from seeing story ideas [1], but it also
insulated him from the stalker/trolls and flamewars that were
clogging regular rastb5. Unfortunately, a few of the moderators
found it easier to block negative reviews than to keep the ensuing
discussions from turning into flamewars. The upshot is that
rastb5.mod was populated mostly with fanboys who would've praised
JMS' shopping list. When the show started going down hill towards
the end of the fourth season, JMS was shielded from the growing
discontent among the fans in regular rastb5. The negative reviews
that did get through were the minority of rastb5.mod, so JMS could
write them off as being unrepresentative. By the fifth season JMS
had developed an attitude that he could do no wrong and any
complaints he heard were just carping from trolls.
[1] There was one incident where someone posted an idea for an
episode that was similar to something JMS was working on, forcing
JMS to scrap story.
--
Sean O'Hara
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid rabbit suit?
Frank: Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
--Richard Kelly, "Donnie Darko"
Sean O'Hara
>
> Who originally aired B5? The Scifi Channel?
>
> > I thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except with
> Muppets.
>
> That's rather besides the point. That kind of accusation can be made of just
> about anything these days.
>
Indeed, the charm of Farscape is that the writers take old Star
Trek plots and do things that would never happen on the Enterprise.
Body-switching episode? Have the alien-in-human-body trying to
figure out how to go to the bathroom. Doppleganger episode? Have
both versions of the hero be exactly the same and have them stick
around for the rest of the season.
Plus, it's nice to see EVA action sequences for a change.
Terry Austin
> [1] There was one incident where someone posted an idea for an
> episode that was similar to something JMS was working on, forcing
> JMS to scrap story.
Not quite. It forced him to go through hoops to get the network
to let him film it. IIRC, the fan offered, out of the blue, to sign
anything that that JMS wanted to give over the rights to the idea.
Or so goes JMS' side of the story.
Terry Austin
Terry Austin
>>
> A slight difference. B5 was great sci-fi because unlike so many it had
> a story arc (the Shadow war/taking back earth) rather then 'days of
> our life' in space like Star Trek et al. It's problem wasn't slow
> resolution to achieving it's goals, it was having a fifth series when
> there was no reason to (and Crusades, tele-movies etc. - though as a
> fan I enjoyed them).
It was originally intended to be five seasons. Sometime in S4, there
were doubts that the network would pay for a fifth, so JMS pushed
the story resolution by the end of the fourth. Then he got a fifth, and
had to do _something_ with it.
>
Terry Austin
Ilya Popov
"Sean O'Hara" <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
message news:3E2338AB...@myrealbox.com...
> Ilya Popov wrote:
> >
> > Who originally aired B5? The Scifi Channel?
> >
> Syndicated.
But by whom? Did any one tele company own the rights to air the series while
it was still in production? Chapman said WB owned the rights to broadcast
the show in the US, and Channel 4 in the UK (at least for the final five
episodes).
> > > I thought it was a bad rip-off of several other shows, except with
> > Muppets.
> >
> > That's rather besides the point. That kind of accusation can be made of
just
> > about anything these days.
> >
> Indeed, the charm of Farscape is that the writers take old Star
> Trek plots and do things that would never happen on the Enterprise.
> Body-switching episode? Have the alien-in-human-body trying to
> figure out how to go to the bathroom. Doppleganger episode? Have
> both versions of the hero be exactly the same and have them stick
> around for the rest of the season.
The recent episodes have also been quite outstanding. They finally took the
protagonist home...and then twisted the knife further. Hell, Voyager's
homecoming was seven years in the coming, and it ended on a whimper.
Farscape did it several times over the course of four years, and with more
gusto, panache, and wit than any other scifi programming in recent years
that I can think of.
>
> Plus, it's nice to see EVA action sequences for a change.
EVA?
>
> --
> Sean O'Hara
Sean O'Hara
>
> My understanding of B5 was that the main story was the Shadow War, and S5
> displayed the repercussions of that war,
Originally "Intersections in Realtime" (the episode where Sheridan's
being interrogated) was planned as the S4 finale, with the Earth
Civil War being resolved sometime in S5 -- presumably halfway
through with the rest of the series being devoted to starting
the alliance. However, JMS wasn't certain there'd be a fifth
season, so he ended up compressing as much as he could into S4.
When TNT picked up the last season, JMS had to find a way to
fill 22 episodes. The results aren't pretty.
Let's put it this way, half of S5 revolves around a group of
brooding goth telepaths with immaculate hair. After five
seconds you'll want someone to space the lot of them.
(Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
> while also wrapping up various
> loose ends and threads that developed during the previous 4 seasons.
>
That's the worst part about S5 -- JMS left dozens of plot threads
dangling. His explanation was everything in real life isn't tied
up in a nice little bow, which might be fine except that some of
the ends are loose only because he created them in foreshadowing.
Ilya Popov
> Ilya Popov wrote:
> >
> > My understanding of B5 was that the main story was the Shadow War, and
S5
> > displayed the repercussions of that war,
>
> Originally "Intersections in Realtime" (the episode where Sheridan's
> being interrogated) was planned as the S4 finale, with the Earth
> Civil War being resolved sometime in S5 -- presumably halfway
> through with the rest of the series being devoted to starting
> the alliance. However, JMS wasn't certain there'd be a fifth
> season, so he ended up compressing as much as he could into S4.
> When TNT picked up the last season, JMS had to find a way to
> fill 22 episodes. The results aren't pretty.
Despite not having known this, I thought Season 4 worked quite well - the
compression gave the sense of increased tension and pressure and only
benefited the arcs that were coming to a close during the latter half of
season 4.
>
> Let's put it this way, half of S5 revolves around a group of
> brooding goth telepaths with immaculate hair. After five
> seconds you'll want someone to space the lot of them.
There's that tall blond one who looks impressively immaculate for someone
who's been on the run for an indetermined number of years. I saw him in the
S5 premiere - which is the only S5 ep I've seen so far, excluding Sleeping
in Light.
>
> (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
> introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
Any explanation for why she left? And has she actually done anything of note
since leaving?
>
> > while also wrapping up various
> > loose ends and threads that developed during the previous 4 seasons.
> >
> That's the worst part about S5 -- JMS left dozens of plot threads
> dangling. His explanation was everything in real life isn't tied
> up in a nice little bow, which might be fine except that some of
> the ends are loose only because he created them in foreshadowing.
That might work in real life, but not in something that's supposedly 'Novels
for the Tele.'
>
> --
> Sean O'Hara
David Chapman
> The recent episodes have also been quite outstanding. They finally
> took the protagonist home...and then twisted the knife further. Hell,
> Voyager's homecoming was seven years in the coming, and it ended on a
> whimper. Farscape did it several times over the course of four years,
> and with more gusto, panache, and wit than any other scifi
> programming in recent years that I can think of.
Voyager *also* gave the crew half a dozen opportunities to get
home that they declined. As did Dungeons and Dragons. As,
for that matter, has *EVERY* show that has ever had someone
stranded away from home except Quantum Leap, and that pushed
it.
Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
Terry Austin
>> (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
>> introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
>
> Any explanation for why she left? And has she actually done anything
> of note since leaving?
>
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Christian,+Claudia
Short answer: nothing of note. Lots of work, though.
Terry Austin
David Chapman
> "Sean O'Hara" <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote
> in message news:3E233F81...@myrealbox.com...
>> (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
>> introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
>
> Any explanation for why she left?
She didn't feel there was any place for her any more.
> And has she actually done anything
> of note since leaving?
V/O for Atlantis: the Lost Empire, among other things. She's
not been idle.
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Christian,+Claudia
Ilya Popov
Except that they fucked with every single conventional of the voyage home as
done by other shows. Here, the hero can go back whenever he wants - but
knows he can't. It might not be a giant leap forward, but for me it was
extremely satisfactory. It's not what they do - it's how they execute it,
and what they twist, mould, change, and screw with. That's the joy of
Farscape - taking old ideas and playing them in a new way.
Ilya Popov
news:v26id5m...@corp.supernews.com...
She went from Babylon 5 to a Steven Seagal movie? Ow.
Karl MacRae
I disagree completely. Farscape took the buds and threw away the stems and
seeds, as it were. It added style, better dialog, better characters, and
better actors.
Farscape starts where most other sci-fi TV ends, and takes it to a much
higher level.
-Karl
--
Karl Elvis MacRae VLSI CAD Apple Computer km...@apple.com
BrainsAkimbo
> I think it's writer's block of a sort. rather than the ubiquitous
> braineater.
I haven't read Jordan myself, so I can't comment on him,
but I think fan adulation must be one of the main components
of the Brain Eater.
That, and the fact that a writer has all his life to write
his first book; only a year or two to write his second.
-- BA
John Schilling
The fifth season really was that bad, though for several reasons.
Reason one, the arc compression. Babylon 5 was planned from the beginning
as a single story spread over five seasons. With contingency plans for
"minor" catastrophes such as a single actor leaving, but if the show got
cancelled after two or three seasons the story just wasn't going to be
finished and that would be that. But, going into season 4, the network
that produced and distributed B5 (PTEN) folded, and it looked like there
wouldn't be a fifth season. JMS decided to hedge his bets and compress
the core plotlines into the fourth season so that the tale would not
be left unfinished.
This compression weakened the fourth season - IMO, the series really
works best with just the first three. But it crippled the fifth season,
which had to be assembled from what was left over after squeezing all
the important stuff into the fourth. By definition, the inferior parts.
Plus some new material to fill space, some of which was pretty good.
Heck, he got Neil Gaiman to pen an episode, and that was absolutely
first-rate work. Unfortunately, it stood out.
Reason two, the departure of Susan Ivanova. This is a pretty touchy
subject for JMS and for much of B5 fandom, but here goes: Uncertainty
regarding the fifth season affected the casting as well as the writing,
as you can't reasonably expect a dozen or so key performers to all keep
their schedules clear for a year on the hope that you will have work
for them to do. Everybody started looking for other gigs to pay the
rent in case B5 stayed dead, and the deals to keep them sort of
available for a rescued B5 were as much informal as contractual. The
amazing thing was that it worked out for all but one of the leads; it
didn't work out with Claudia Christian, aka Susan Ivanova. She was
offered a minor movie role, and negotiations to reconcile the schedule
with that of B5 foundered on miscommunication and lack of trust.
We will not go into who is to blame here, but the character of Susan
Ivanova was by that time so firmly integrated into the story of Babylon
5 that her very abrupt departure hurt, a lot.
Reason three, JMS fell in love with his writing and his characters.
Every single episode of the third and fourth season, and every episode
but one of the fifth, was written by JMS himself. This was arguably
justified in the third by plot considerations, and arguably necessary
for the plot compression of the fourth, but it was uncalled for in
the fifth season. Nobody is that good, and even if we were to assume
that JMS *was* that good, nobody has that much energy. And, as has
been noted here endlessly, the Brain Eater feeds on writers who go too
long without editors, and the story editors on B5 went away when the
boss was writing all the scripts himself.
That's the writing. There were in the fifth season an amazing, or
perhaps appalling, number of stories and plot lines that can only be
explained by the belief that the characters they center on are the
Coolest, Most Perfect People Ever. Byron and the Telegoths being
the worst case. The episode, "A View from the Gallery" was forty
five minutes of worshipful adoration of the entire main cast, with
an order of magnitude greater saccharine content than anything by
Krispy Kreme. And the Interstellar Alliance we were all so glad
the Good Guys managed to found out of the chaos of the first four
seasons? Militaristic totalitarian dictatorship with theocratic
overtones, but hey, it's all fine because Sheridan and Delenn are
the dictator and high priestess, respectively.
Producer/fan interaction on the internet? Possibly; that is one
plausible explanation for reason 3, above, and perhaps for JMS
believing he could and should get away with reason 1. There
certainly were several memorable rabid stalkers out to shoot down
JMS at every opportunity on account of he was the biggest media/SF
celebrity they could get at without prying their butts out of the
chair in front of the computer. Harassment of a type and scale
that oversensitivity to, rejection of, criticism in general would
be an understandable response. And on the other side, there were
no shortage of uncritical worshippers who would enthusiastically
reinforce any tendency JMS had to believe himself above criticism.
Joe's a pretty level-headed guy, prone to self-effacement and as humble
as is possible for someone who aspires to and bootstraps himself to such
achievement. And we created the moderated group to shut down the worst
of the abuses before it was too late. So I think blaming the crapulent
nature of the fifth season on fan/producer interaction goes a bit too
far. It may have been a contributing factor, but writers have long
fallen too much in love with their works without any help from the fans.
And, given the workload ("writer" and "producer" are each individually
full-time jobs for type-A personalities), simple burnout was probably
most of it. I have "before" and "after" pictures of JMS stuck in my
head - he paid too much, for the full five seasons.
That's a bit more than I planned to write, but there it is. Can I
perhaps persuade you to take a pass on the fifth season, except for
the series finale? "Sleeping in the Light" was written and filmed
at the conclusion for the fourth season. That gives you four full,
complete seasons, and I think you'll be happier leaving it at that.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
David Chapman
> In article <avvh1n$j5u3f$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de>,
> David Chapman <je...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>>
>>> The recent episodes have also been quite outstanding. They finally
>>> took the protagonist home...and then twisted the knife further.
>>> Hell, Voyager's homecoming was seven years in the coming, and it
>>> ended on a whimper. Farscape did it several times over the course
>>> of four years, and with more gusto, panache, and wit than any other
>>> scifi programming in recent years that I can think of.
>>
>> Voyager *also* gave the crew half a dozen opportunities to get
>> home that they declined. As did Dungeons and Dragons. As,
>> for that matter, has *EVERY* show that has ever had someone
>> stranded away from home except Quantum Leap, and that pushed
>> it.
>>
>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>
> I disagree completely. Farscape took the buds and threw away the
> stems and seeds, as it were. It added style, better dialog, better
> characters, and better actors.
This has *got* to be a troll. Farscape was inferior in all four
regards to every other genre show on TV. It makes
Andromeda look like Babylon 5, for God's sake.
> Farscape starts where most other sci-fi TV ends, and takes it to a
> much higher level.
Farscape started where Australian soap operas started, and
added sci-fi.
David Chapman
> "David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
> news:avvh1n$j5u3f$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de...
>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>
> Except that they fucked with every single conventional of the voyage
> home as done by other shows.
Look - we're never going to agree on this, so I'm going to
make one final statement to let you know just where I stand
and then we'll leave it, OK?
<statement>
I have watched many genre shows down the years; in fact, I
rarely watch anything *but* genre TV. Here is a partial list in
no particular order of shows I have watched the majority of
episodes of, if not all:
Babylon 5, Crusade, Star Trek (all five incarnations), The
X-Files, Knight Rider, Team Knight Rider, Andromeda,
American Gothic, Prey, Brimstone, Highlander, Time Trax,
Mortal Kombat: Conquest, Futurama, Buffy, Angel, Space:
Above and Beyond, Sapphire and Steel, The Prisoner,
Robin of Sherwood, Stargate SG-1, Bugs, Doctor Who
(1979-1989), Red Dwarf, Lexx, V, Millennium.
Many of these shows are classic, but many of them are trash.
Trash or treasure, however, they all have some spark of
entertainment value or quality. Regardless of the merits
they may or may not possess, that makes every show on
that list better than Farscape. Farscape genuinely is in the
lowest bracket of shows, fit only to be mentioned alongside
Buck Rogers, seaQuest DSV and Galactica 1980. Its
cancellation ranks high among the great moments of TV sci-fi.
</statement>
Now let's move on.
Ilya Popov
"John Schilling" <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote in message
news:avvkoa$cm5$1...@spock.usc.edu...
> "Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com> writes:
>
<snip>
>
> That's a bit more than I planned to write, but there it is. Can I
> perhaps persuade you to take a pass on the fifth season, except for
> the series finale? "Sleeping in the Light" was written and filmed
> at the conclusion for the fourth season. That gives you four full,
> complete seasons, and I think you'll be happier leaving it at that.
>
>
> --
> John Schilling
Wow. The History of Babylon 5. That clears up...quite a bit. Nice post.
I've seen SoL. Good Ep. In my mind, a very good ep. It gave me all the
closure I needed. With the exception of the Gaiman ep, if there's nothing
after the S5 premiere, then I'm going to need a new fix. And that's not
something to look forward to, considering Farscape just got the axe.
Ilya Popov
I don't know how much of FS you've seen, but it really is *just* that good.
A bit melodramatic, certainly, but the insanity of the show is what makes it
so charming. At least it doesn't go to absurd new realms like
Lexx...*shiver*
Karl MacRae
David Chapman <je...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Karl MacRae will say:
>
>> In article <avvh1n$j5u3f$5...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de>,
>> David Chapman <je...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>>>
>>>> The recent episodes have also been quite outstanding. They finally
>>>> took the protagonist home...and then twisted the knife further.
>>>> Hell, Voyager's homecoming was seven years in the coming, and it
>>>> ended on a whimper. Farscape did it several times over the course
>>>> of four years, and with more gusto, panache, and wit than any other
>>>> scifi programming in recent years that I can think of.
>>>
>>> Voyager *also* gave the crew half a dozen opportunities to get
>>> home that they declined. As did Dungeons and Dragons. As,
>>> for that matter, has *EVERY* show that has ever had someone
>>> stranded away from home except Quantum Leap, and that pushed
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>>
>> I disagree completely. Farscape took the buds and threw away the
>> stems and seeds, as it were. It added style, better dialog, better
>> characters, and better actors.
>
>This has *got* to be a troll. Farscape was inferior in all four
>regards to every other genre show on TV. It makes
>Andromeda look like Babylon 5, for God's sake.
Boy, did Farscape go over your head. That's ok though, there are still
those "three's company" reruns for you.
Charlton Wilbur
written SF ]
>>>>> "IP" == Ilya Popov <il...@metalinker.com> writes:
>> (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
>> introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
IP> Any explanation for why she left?
Christiansen wanted time off to work on movies, and JMS was quite
willing to give it to her; he had done something similar with Steven
Furst in an earlier season. However, her agent wanted the time off to
be written into the contract, and Warner Brothers said no. When it
appeared uncertain that Season 5 would happen, Warner Brothers tried
to get all the actors to sign contract extensions. Christiansen did
not; her agent apparently advised her that this would give her
bargaining leverage. When Season 5 got the green light, Warner
Brothers would not sign her to a new contract, even under the terms
that they had offered her previously.
I don't know if she got a new agent. I know that if mine had given me
such spectacularly bad advice, I would have.
Charlton
Kenneth G. Cavness
Ilya Popov <il...@metalinker.com> confessed...
> "Feisal Schlee" <f.sc...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:avv70j$5j8$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
> >
> > "Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:72DU9.666654$P31.498961@rwcrnsc53...
> > > >
> > > > Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
> > >
> > > Haven't seen season 5 yet.
> >
> > Don't see it. Just forget ever having heard that there is a season 5.
>
> Was season 5 really that bad?
Yes, Season 5 really was that bad. I'm not altogether sure why
Strazynski wanted to make it (and he really, *really* did) -- I thought
the "end" of Season 4 (and, due to a lack of funding, almost the end
altogether) was really rather good.
Season 5 simply did not know where it was going, it left more questions
unanswered (presumably forever) than answered, and, above all else, was
*boring*. Kitschy, too, what with the Nice Telepaths.
--
Kenneth G. Cavness
ke...@cavness.org
http://www.cavness.org/
"Do yourself a favor, and learn the difference between 'nuance'
and 'bullshit.' -- John S. Novak, III
Kenneth G. Cavness
confessed...
[snip]
> (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
> introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
The new character, who, I am sure, is a fine actress, quite simply could
*not* fill the shoes that Claudia Christian left behind. I adored that
woman's role in the series, second only behind Peter (Londo) Jurasik.
Which is altogether odd, since I've seen her in other shit, and she
wasn't half as good in the other movies as she was in this role.
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
[snip]
>> Was season 5 really that bad? The first season was touch and go, but 2-4
>> seemed fairly top notch. What's so bad about the fifth? Or did the JMS/Fan
>> collision that Aaron mentioned have an adverse effect on the final season?
>Ok, maybe not *that* bad, but it's not nearly as good as the others
>and adds nothing to the story.
Yes it does, from about the 10 episode onwards. The 5 episode run from
Meditations on the Abyss to The Fall of Centauri Prime is as good a
run in the entire series.
No-one has explained what went on between S4 and 5 so I'll elucidate.
JMS thought the series might be axed after S4 so he brought forward
the events he had planned to put in the first half dozen or so
episodes of S5, and put them at the end of S4, so he could be in a
position to end the series there if he had to. When S5 was picked up
he had to come up with other stories for the first few episodes of S5,
needless to say they weren't very good, but as I said it picks up
after about the 10th episode.
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@removeozonline.com.au
'I'm not an adult!'' he says, shaking his head. ''I don't want
to create responsible shows with lawyers in them. I want to invade
people's dreams.'' -Joss Whedon
Ian Galbraith
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
Just out of interest how many episodes have you seen?
Ilya Popov
news:MPG.188d2b773...@news.21stcentury.net...
> Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent,
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com>
> confessed...
> [snip]
>
> > (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
> > introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
>
> The new character, who, I am sure, is a fine actress, quite simply could
> *not* fill the shoes that Claudia Christian left behind. I adored that
> woman's role in the series, second only behind Peter (Londo) Jurasik.
>
> Which is altogether odd, since I've seen her in other shit, and she
> wasn't half as good in the other movies as she was in this role.
Which once again reminds us that the script is what counts the most. And of
course, the character was fleshed out fairly well - after four seasons I was
still worshipping the ground she walked on. That's rather rare.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
> --
> Kenneth G. Cavness
David Chapman
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:55:28 -0000, "David Chapman"
> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>
> Just out of interest how many episodes have you seen?
I give any show three to six episodes. Farscape got the
full six; I should have given up after one. I do, however,
have a set of complete ep synopses to refer to.
Beowulf Bolt
rasfw for that matter, but...]
Ilya Popov wrote:
>
> I've seen SoL. Good Ep. In my mind, a very good ep. It gave me all the
> closure I needed. With the exception of the Gaiman ep, if there's
> nothing after the S5 premiere, then I'm going to need a new fix. And
> that's not something to look forward to, considering Farscape just got
> the axe.
Well, there's the best new space-sf show to premiere in several years,
_Firefly_.
Oh wait, that got axed too.
Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Louann Miller
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ilya Popov will say:
>
>> "David Chapman" <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote in message
>>> Which season of B5 haven't you seen?
>>
>> Haven't seen season 5 yet.
>
>Season 5 is OK, but you *could* theoretically stand to
>miss every ep except the last (which was filmed during S4).
>Me, I watched it anyway.
You know how each season had its own title like "Signs and Portents"
or "Into the Fire"? My title for S5 was "The Long Goodbye."
Besides, nobody should have to face folk-singing telepathic space
Goths.
Louann, shuddering.
Louann Miller
I enjoy Farscape. Not so much for the plots, as for Crichton's almost
weekly mood swings from cranky to overconfident to insane. I love it
when he gets in touch with his inner redneck.
Louann
Sean O'Hara
> > Ilya Popov wrote:
> > >
> > > Who originally aired B5? The Scifi Channel?
> > >
> > Syndicated.
>
> But by whom? Did any one tele company own the rights to air the series while
> it was still in production? Chapman said WB owned the rights to broadcast
> the show in the US, and Channel 4 in the UK (at least for the final five
> episodes).
>
The original company was called PTEN -- Prime Time Entertainment
Network -- which was an early attempt by, IIRC, the WB to start
a network by selling programming packages to local stations. It
failed.
> > Indeed, the charm of Farscape is that the writers take old Star
> > Trek plots and do things that would never happen on the Enterprise.
> > Body-switching episode? Have the alien-in-human-body trying to
> > figure out how to go to the bathroom. Doppleganger episode? Have
> > both versions of the hero be exactly the same and have them stick
> > around for the rest of the season.
>
> The recent episodes have also been quite outstanding. They finally took the
> protagonist home...and then twisted the knife further. Hell, Voyager's
> homecoming was seven years in the coming, and it ended on a whimper.
> Farscape did it several times over the course of four years, and with more
> gusto, panache, and wit than any other scifi programming in recent years
> that I can think of.
>
Unfortunately, SciFi's backed out so the series is kaput. Bastards.
> >
> > Plus, it's nice to see EVA action sequences for a change.
>
> EVA?
>
Extra-Vehicular Activity. The shootouts in outer space.
Sean O'Hara
>
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Karl MacRae will say:
>
> > I disagree completely. Farscape took the buds and threw away the
> > stems and seeds, as it were. It added style, better dialog, better
> > characters, and better actors.
>
> This has *got* to be a troll. Farscape was inferior in all four
> regards to every other genre show on TV. It makes
> Andromeda look like Babylon 5, for God's sake.
>
Sean O'Hara
> >
> > Originally "Intersections in Realtime" (the episode where Sheridan's
> > being interrogated) was planned as the S4 finale, with the Earth
> > Civil War being resolved sometime in S5 -- presumably halfway
> > through with the rest of the series being devoted to starting
> > the alliance. However, JMS wasn't certain there'd be a fifth
> > season, so he ended up compressing as much as he could into S4.
> > When TNT picked up the last season, JMS had to find a way to
> > fill 22 episodes. The results aren't pretty.
>
> Despite not having known this, I thought Season 4 worked quite well - the
> compression gave the sense of increased tension and pressure and only
> benefited the arcs that were coming to a close during the latter half of
> season 4.
>
It's decent, but I think the final battle would've been better
stretched over a couple episodes.
> >
> > Let's put it this way, half of S5 revolves around a group of
> > brooding goth telepaths with immaculate hair. After five
> > seconds you'll want someone to space the lot of them.
>
> There's that tall blond one who looks impressively immaculate for someone
> who's been on the run for an indetermined number of years. I saw him in the
> S5 premiere - which is the only S5 ep I've seen so far, excluding Sleeping
> in Light.
>
Yes, now imagine a dozen more just like him. Worse, imagine him
falling in love with Lyta and giving a long speech about how she
is his willow tree. <shudder>
> >
> > (Plus Claudia "Ivanova" Christen left the show, forcing JMS to
> > introduce a new character who never quite worked.)
>
> Any explanation for why she left? And has she actually done anything of note
> since leaving?
>
Stupid agent.
Sean O'Hara
>
> "Kenneth G. Cavness" <ke...@cavness.org> wrote in message
> news:MPG.188d2b773...@news.21stcentury.net...
> >
> > wasn't half as good in the other movies as she was in this role.
>
> Which once again reminds us that the script is what counts the most.
>
Ed Wood script and make it watchable. Well, at least his scenes
watchable.
Michelle J. Haines
says...
>
> Was season 5 really that bad? The first season was touch and go, but 2-4
> seemed fairly top notch. What's so bad about the fifth? Or did the JMS/Fan
> collision that Aaron mentioned have an adverse effect on the final season?
The big problem with season five was no one was sure B5 would get
renewed for a fifth season, so JMS had to wrap up all his big, major
plot points in season four, and then wrap up all the more minor plots
in season five, rather than spacing them out as he originally
intended. So it was left feeling like an afterthought.
Michelle
Flutist
--
"Daddy, sometimes schoolwork is better than eating!"
-- Katrina M. Haines, 01-09-03
Ian Galbraith
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ian Galbraith will say:
>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:55:28 -0000, "David Chapman"
>> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>> Just out of interest how many episodes have you seen?
>I give any show three to six episodes. Farscape got the
>full six; I should have given up after one. I do, however,
>have a set of complete ep synopses to refer to.
The problem with this is that if they are amongst the 3/4 of episodes
in S1 they are not representative of the series as a whole. The show
was pretty bad for most of S1, but improved enormously with the last
few episodes of S1 and then into S2, and has continued this
improvement into S3 (which is currently what I'm watching). I think in
late S1 they decided that they weren't doing a childrens show and took
the series more seriously. And reading a synopsis is no substitute for
actually watching it.
Ilya Popov
"Ian Galbraith" <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:dm592vcvd3n3h40ck...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:10:24 -0000, "David Chapman"
> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>
> >The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ian Galbraith will say:
>
> >> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:55:28 -0000, "David Chapman"
> >> <evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Farscape stole everything and did nothing worthwhile with it.
>
> >> Just out of interest how many episodes have you seen?
>
> >I give any show three to six episodes. Farscape got the
> >full six; I should have given up after one. I do, however,
> >have a set of complete ep synopses to refer to.
>
> The problem with this is that if they are amongst the 3/4 of episodes
> in S1 they are not representative of the series as a whole. The show
> was pretty bad for most of S1, but improved enormously with the last
> few episodes of S1 and then into S2, and has continued this
> improvement into S3 (which is currently what I'm watching). I think in
> late S1 they decided that they weren't doing a childrens show and took
> the series more seriously. And reading a synopsis is no substitute for
> actually watching it.
Someone at Scifi or Henson realized "Hey, we're appealing to kids! ...Fuck.
This is supposed to be aimed at adults. Make things darker, and less
cartoonish." And thus, the introduction of the Ancients, Scorpius, etc
etc.Although there are some very nice episodes from the first season, it's
an uneven season. Season 2, and moreso three, really get things going into
high gear.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
> --
Joe Mason
>> Which once again reminds us that the script is what counts the most.
>>
> Unless you're Lawrence Fishburn. Lawrence Fishburn could take an
> Ed Wood script and make it watchable. Well, at least his scenes
> watchable.
So if he'd gotten the Sam Jackson role, could he have saved Episode I?
Joe
Brian Henderson
MacRae) wrote:
>I disagree completely. Farscape took the buds and threw away the stems and
>seeds, as it were. It added style, better dialog, better characters, and
>better actors.
It did? I thought Farscape started out fine, it had a decent premise,
decent effects and was headed in a promising direction.
Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
quite works out. D'Argo became a wimp. The whole character of
Scorpius is ridiculous. Chianna, as a character, should be taken out
and shot in the head several times with a high caliber weapon.
Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
Titanic like Farscape.
>Farscape starts where most other sci-fi TV ends, and takes it to a much
>higher level.
Considering that virtually all sci-fi TV is absolute crap, that's not
surprising. Being a better grade of crap doesn't mean it's worth
watching.
tom dunne
> Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
> Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
> there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
> episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
> quite works out.
Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
assumption a fifth season was due).
> Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
> character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
> Titanic like Farscape.
Word has it that her costume (fullbody blue paint) was making her sick,
too much so to continue her work in the series).
Paul Mensonides
"tom dunne" <dun...@email.uc.edu> wrote in message
news:3E297F3A...@email.uc.edu...
> Brian Henderson wrote:
>
> > Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
> > Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
> > there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
> > episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
> > quite works out.
>
> Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
> real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
> assumption a fifth season was due).
Yeah. It is also *not* true that you get episode after episode of Crichton
almost getting home. In fact, that has almost never happened. What makes
Farscape a good show, and indeed The Wheel of Time a good series, is the
strong character development with long term and short term plotlines.
Paul Mensonides
Brian Henderson
wrote:
>Brian Henderson wrote:
>> Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
>> Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
>> there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
>> episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
>> quite works out.
>
>Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
>real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
>assumption a fifth season was due).
I only saw the last part of it, but I was under the impression that
Creighton was leaving again, his father was crying about not wanting
to lose him again and such.
>> Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
>> character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
>> Titanic like Farscape.
>
>Word has it that her costume (fullbody blue paint) was making her sick,
>too much so to continue her work in the series).
That's a shame, she was one of the few enjoyable characters they had.
tom dunne
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:29:12 GMT, tom dunne <dun...@email.uc.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Brian Henderson wrote:
> >> Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
> >> Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
> >> there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
> >> episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
> >> quite works out.
> >
> >Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
> >real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
> >assumption a fifth season was due).
>
> I only saw the last part of it, but I was under the impression that
> Creighton was leaving again, his father was crying about not wanting
> to lose him again and such.
He is leaving, that's true. But it's not some fully contrived plot
device. He went to Earth not to return home, exactly, but to prepare
Earth for the real, inevitable threats out in the galaxy. Both Scarrans
and Peacemakers want his wormhole knowledge, and he knows that staying
on Earth will bring them there eventually (Comandant Cleavage is already
planning that). That concern has been something he's wrestled with
since season 2. Additionally, like the survivor of a war, many have
remarked that he just doesn't fit on Earth anymore. He's seen too much,
done too much - made new friends and fallen in love - to ever just pack
it all in and move to a beach house on the Gulf coast.
> >> Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
> >> character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
> >> Titanic like Farscape.
> >
> >Word has it that her costume (fullbody blue paint) was making her sick,
> >too much so to continue her work in the series).
>
> That's a shame, she was one of the few enjoyable characters they had.
Yeah, I've totally lost track of al lof the various replacement bimbos.
I remember Jool, the one with the killer scream, but I think there have
been two others, plus the wrinkly chick and the ever-annoying Starck.
And Losing Crais sucked, as he was pretty badass...
Mark Jones
<dun...@email.uc.edu>' confessed:
>Brian Henderson wrote:
>
>> Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
>> Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
>> there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
>> episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
>> quite works out.
>
>Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
>real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
>assumption a fifth season was due).
I watched that episode too. And that's _after_ I'd decided it wasn't
my cup of tea. I watched it precisely because I, too, knew the "rule"
about the hero trying to get home--he never, ever does. Not for real.
Except...Creighton did. For real. It wasn't a fantasy or an illusion
or some cunning deception by aliens or enemies. He didn't find
himself wandering the earth as a ghost or microscopic is size or in
the wrong time period (though that happened last week, for a while),
or otherwise close enough to touch, but not.
He really got there. He was reunited with family and friends. He and
his alien shipmates were instantly famous. Things changed on earth
because of it. At the end of the episode he left again because there
are things he needs to do, of course, but--they really changed the
premise of the series there. Creighton is no longer _marooned_ far,
far away and trying to get home.
It was interesting precisely because they _didn't_ go with the safe
(and cliched) approaches to this.
--
"It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see."
"_Real_ things?"
--Egg Shen and Jack Burton
Matt Ruff
>
> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
Is that good or bad?
-- M. Ruff
David Bilek
>David Chapman wrote:
>>
>> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
>
>Is that good or bad?
>
Well, one was unadulterated crap and the other was crap that could
have been non-crap if the writer realized his limitations, so I'm not
sure.
-David
Jms at B5
>to be that of J. Michael Straczynski and the television show Babylon 5.
>It constitutes another instance where the direct contact of the author
>with his fans interfered with the storytelling. For Straczyniski, it led
>to a defensiveness stemming from contact with what were essentially
>online stalkers. Through a series of events, this culminated in an
>insulation from criticism and an inability to recognize how he had
>overextended himself.
Just a point of clarification...the only thing wrong with this thesis, as well
worded as it is, is that it sorta kinda ain't entirely so.
The moderated group was developed for two reasons:
1) To help protect me from legal problems resulting from people throwing story
ideas my way, which could cause repercussions if I had anything similar already
in mind (and in fact this exact scenario resulted in my having to delay an
episode almost a year when someone scattered an idea similar to what I was
planning in the unmoderated group).
2) There were a number of net-stalkers who were after me, and some members of
the group, whose presence was making the situation toxic and open discusssion
next to impossible.
Thusly, those were the only two areas that tended to get moderated. To say
that there was "insulation from criticism" is simply untrue; there was never
any requirement that you had to agree with or support anything in the show, or
anything I said...only that you not put in story ideas, or be a nutball.
Anyone who was in that group then, as now, knows full well that there was the
full range of discussion, both positive and negative, about the show. You can
log over to jmsnews.com and see all my posts from the last 10 years, and in
plenty of occasions there was no end of criticism, some valid, some not.
As for "an inability to recognize how (I) had overextended (my)self," I said at
the time that I was drowning in the work...I knew full well that I was as maxed
out as I've ever been. But there was really nothing else I could do. Having
set B5 in motion, chewing through stories at the rate of 24 frames per second,
you can't just decide to take a year off running, writing, producing, casting,
designing and everything else involved with creating and executive producing a
series. You're strapped to that horse until it stops. We had to make 20 eps
per year, rain or shine, for five years, and we'd found that the freelance
scripts in the main just weren't working.
So yeah, it stunk; yeah, I paid a price, but no, I wasn't unaware of it, and
no, there was no other way to do it.
Just for purposes of clarity.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2003 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
Ian Galbraith
<cep...@directvinternet.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Then it fell apart completely. It got the "Voyager" syndrome. Yes,
>Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and stays
>there, the series ends. So they have to give you episode after
>episode of him *ALMOST* getting there, with silly reasons why it never
>quite works out.
Well that explains, you haven't been watching Farscape, or you've been
watching it in some alternate universe. Because that doesn't happen.
>D'Argo became a wimp. The whole character of
>Scorpius is ridiculous. Chianna, as a character, should be taken out
>and shot in the head several times with a high caliber weapon.
>Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
>character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
>Titanic like Farscape.
So you don't like the characters, thats not a qualitative judgement.
Scorpius is ridiculous because he is so over the top, but that makes
him an extremely enjoyable character. D'Argo was merely given depth,
he has never been wimpish at all.
[snip]
David Chapman
> David Chapman wrote:
>>
>> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
>
> Is that good or bad?
Andromeda is ... adequate. It's fun, it's pretty, it has its
moments, but it's in no way great TV. B5 was great TV.
tom dunne
>
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Matt Ruff will say:
>
> > David Chapman wrote:
> >>
> >> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
> >
> > Is that good or bad?
>
> Andromeda is ... adequate. It's fun, it's pretty, it has its
> moments, but it's in no way great TV. B5 was great TV.
And incidentally, J. Michael Straczynski has personally replied to the
original thread (Robert and Me), to explain the difficulties with the B5
internet communities. Whatever you think of B5, you have to admire the
man's interaction with the public; imagine if we had a confirmed RJ
sighting here ;)
erilar
<je...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Matt Ruff will say:
>
> > David Chapman wrote:
> >>
> >> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
> >
> > Is that good or bad?
>
> Andromeda is ... adequate. It's fun, it's pretty, it has its
> moments, but it's in no way great TV. B5 was great TV.
>
Good writing makes a big difference.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<leav...@attbi.com> wrote:
> "tom dunne" <dun...@email.uc.edu> wrote in message
> news:3E297F3A...@email.uc.edu...
> >
> > Well, it worked fine in last night's episode. Creighton got home. For
> > real. With half a season of episodes to go (and filmed under the
> > assumption a fifth season was due).
>
> Yeah. It is also *not* true that you get episode after episode of
> Crichton
> almost getting home. In fact, that has almost never happened. What
> makes
> Farscape a good show, and indeed The Wheel of Time a good series, is the
> strong character development with long term and short term plotlines.
>
I don't know about Wheel of Time, but along with character and
plotlines, Farscape has another asset: it is the least predictable sf
show by far I can remember ever seeing.
David Bilek
>In article <b0es7t$nui69$3...@ID-93395.news.dfncis.de>, "David Chapman"
><je...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Matt Ruff will say:
>>
>> > David Chapman wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It makes Andromeda look like Babylon 5,
>> >
>> > Is that good or bad?
>>
>> Andromeda is ... adequate. It's fun, it's pretty, it has its
>> moments, but it's in no way great TV. B5 was great TV.
>>
> Good writing makes a big difference.
Um. Are you claiming that B5 had good writing?
There were good parts to B5. But, to pick one example, JMS's dialogue
was often terribly stilted.
-David
A.C.
news:o16m2vcodo95ql6qt...@4ax.com...
Typical rabid B5 reaction to that is, "but he wrote it all himself!" As if
that justified it.
That said, I rather liked B5, but it was a very flawed series.
kesi...@math.ttu.edu
: And incidentally, J. Michael Straczynski has personally replied to the
: original thread (Robert and Me), to explain the difficulties with the B5
: internet communities. Whatever you think of B5, you have to admire the
: man's interaction with the public; imagine if we had a confirmed RJ
: sighting here ;)
I'm erading you in RASFW, where many authors have dropped in over
the years, and the original author-interacting-with-fans-on-USENET
is Terry Pratchett.
==Jake
tom dunne
Some dialogue is good, some is bad; I never got too hung up on that.
Zathras had an amusing way of speaking, that's all that really stands
out to me.
I think the aspect of B5 that really deserves recognition is the fact
that it really weaves together as a single, 4-season long story (we'll
omit season five for the obvious reasons). Compare the first season of
B5 to that of, say, ST:TNG. Sinclair is *the* main character of the
show, and he's written out at the end of the season. The real hero of
the series, Sheridan, doesn't even show up until season 2, and that was
deliberate - very atypical. The development of events that lead to
Sinclair becoming Valen were really unprecedented as far as I know,
having a deliberate foundation two seasons prior. What seemed like
throw away episodes in season 1 (the Bab4 episode) turned out to be the
lynchpin of the entire series. Unlike most any other SF tv series,
events broke down like they might in real life, wherein the actions of
year one might completely alter the course of events that transpire in
year three or four. In any given year of ST:TNG, you could be fairly
certain that whatever you saw, in whatever episode, would essentially
have no effect whatsoever on subsequent seasons. A few threads carried
over, but not something that altered the entire series, the way the
Shadow War did in B5. ST:DS9 had some more season-to-season continuity,
but Voyager was completely without that feeling.
B5's execution may occasionally have been lacking, but its ambition was
amazing.
David Chapman
> I think the aspect of B5 that really deserves recognition is the fact
> that it really weaves together as a single, 4-season long story (we'll
> omit season five for the obvious reasons). Compare the first season
> of B5 to that of, say, ST:TNG. Sinclair is *the* main character of
> the show, and he's written out at the end of the season. The real
> hero of the series, Sheridan, doesn't even show up until season 2,
> and that was deliberate - very atypical. The development of events
> that lead to Sinclair becoming Valen were really unprecedented as far
> as I know, having a deliberate foundation two seasons prior.
Actually, it *wasn't* entirely deliberate. JMS has commented
that Sinclair had ties to the Minbari, and it would have been
overloading him to give him the ties to the Shadows also. So
a ways into S1, they elected to remove him.
J.B. Moreno
-snip-
> Whatever you think of B5, you have to admire the man's interaction with
> the public; imagine if we had a confirmed RJ sighting here ;)
I'm reading this in rec.arts.sf.written, where dozens of authors have
been seen over the years, and more than a handful of been here as
regular for years.
(I first "spoke" to Joel Rosenberg sometime around 86, via fidonet).
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
John S. Novak, III
> And incidentally, J. Michael Straczynski has personally replied to the
> original thread (Robert and Me), to explain the difficulties with the B5
> internet communities. Whatever you think of B5, you have to admire the
> man's interaction with the public; imagine if we had a confirmed RJ
> sighting here ;)
No good could possibly come of that.
Some writers do really well in on-line, fan-populated fora.
Others do not. Just imagine Harlan Ellison, for example, or *look* at
Stirling.
I suspect Robert Jordan is one whose on-line presence would not go down
well.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Ian Galbraith
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>"David Bilek" <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:o16m2vcodo95ql6qt...@4ax.com...
[snip]
>> There were good parts to B5. But, to pick one example, JMS's dialogue
>> was often terribly stilted.
>Typical rabid B5 reaction to that is, "but he wrote it all himself!" As if
>that justified it.
No the typical reaction is that his dialogue was deliberately
overblown, almost theatrical. That could be just a rationalization
however.
[snip]
Ilya Popov
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:22:54 GMT, "A.C."
> <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"David Bilek" <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >news:o16m2vcodo95ql6qt...@4ax.com...
> [snip]
>
> >> There were good parts to B5. But, to pick one example, JMS's dialogue
> >> was often terribly stilted.
>
> >Typical rabid B5 reaction to that is, "but he wrote it all himself!" As
if
> >that justified it.
>
> No the typical reaction is that his dialogue was deliberately
> overblown, almost theatrical. That could be just a rationalization
> however.
JMS admits to as much himself in his posts on Lurker's B5 Guide.
> [snip]
> --
> Ian Galbraith
David Bilek
Which has now bearing whatsoever on how well it comes off, deliberate
or not. But that's only one of the problems with the series.
Needs one mention the "Get Out Of Our Galaxy!" anticlimax?
-David
Ilya Popov
What were you expecting? A giant flaming battle? Well...maybe. But I liked
the conclusion to the Shadow War - I thought it was effective, but YMMV.
Ilya Popov
The Nazi Critic
> -David
Maureen O'Brien
>Creighton wants to get home, but we all know that if he does and
I hate to point this out, but the character's name is spelled
Crichton. It's been misspelled throughout the thread.
Maureen, picking a rather large nit.
Brian Henderson
wrote:
>He is leaving, that's true. But it's not some fully contrived plot
>device. He went to Earth not to return home, exactly, but to prepare
>Earth for the real, inevitable threats out in the galaxy. Both Scarrans
>and Peacemakers want his wormhole knowledge, and he knows that staying
>on Earth will bring them there eventually (Comandant Cleavage is already
>planning that). That concern has been something he's wrestled with
>since season 2. Additionally, like the survivor of a war, many have
>remarked that he just doesn't fit on Earth anymore. He's seen too much,
>done too much - made new friends and fallen in love - to ever just pack
>it all in and move to a beach house on the Gulf coast.
It's funny that early in the series, he *HAD* no wormhole knowledge.
It was a mistake. He had no way of getting back because he had no
idea how he got there in the first place.
Besides, it makes no sense that any of the aliens would want anything
to do with Earth to begin with. Creighton was considered a
sub-creature, ignorant, archaic and with no worthwhile knowledge or
skills. Earth technology is ridiculously low compared to everyone
else. Why would the Scarrans or Peacemakers even bother with Earth,
especially since it's so far away.
Oh yeah... plot device.
>> That's a shame, she was one of the few enjoyable characters they had.
>
>Yeah, I've totally lost track of al lof the various replacement bimbos.
>I remember Jool, the one with the killer scream, but I think there have
>been two others, plus the wrinkly chick and the ever-annoying Starck.
>And Losing Crais sucked, as he was pretty badass...
Like I said, the show started out with promise, then it turned into
every crap SF premise anyone has ever come up with. No thanks, it
deserved to be cancelled.
Michelle J. Haines
dbi...@attbi.com says...
>
> Which has now bearing whatsoever on how well it comes off, deliberate
> or not. But that's only one of the problems with the series.
The acting could often come off as stilted, too, especially in the
first season. Some of the actors settled into the roles very well,
though. G'Kar and Londo's characters really ended up being the stars
of the series, for me.
> Needs one mention the "Get Out Of Our Galaxy!" anticlimax?
*wince* It was a painful moment.
Michelle
Flutist
--
"Daddy, sometimes schoolwork is better than eating!"
-- Katrina M. Haines, 01-09-03
Ian Montgomerie
wrote:
Ugh. Some of my friends in university got together to watch B5 so I
went too. In season 3, I was actually enjoying the show, despite my
view that it had mediocre acting, often-cheesy effects, poor dialog,
and a very unsubtle, almost "high fantasy" tone. The whole "one
writer, grand story arc" didn't do much for me because it seemed to
squelch variety, and originality in the actual stories and plot
twists.
Then it came to the climactic episode, and half way through, I thought
"I don't believe it, he's making the KIRK SPEECH!"
(The Kirk Speech is what I call the cheesy climaxes often found in
Star Trek where the captain gives a short, moralistic tongue-lashing
to warring aliens, superintelligent beings, etc., and it's at least
implied that this demonstrates to them the error of their ways. But I
wonder if it should henceforth be called the Sheridan Speech, because
in Star Trek it only left a bad taste in your mouth after watching a
given show, not a whole series).
Ilya Popov
news:b6an2v4hvfh67muks...@4ax.com...
Given the amount of backstory regarding the shadows, the Vorlons, Minbari,
Humans, Narns, Centauri, etc, the conclusion of the Shadow War made sense -
and was the only proper conclusion. A huge battle would've been the result
the Shadows sought, and to surrender and let the Vorlons kick the Shadows
down would've been the result the Vorlons sought.
Aside from being slightly melodramatic - what's the problem? Certainly, some
of the episodes had less than stellar writing, but otherwise, the conclusion
(disregarding season 5, which I've yet to see) was rather well executed -
Shadow War and Human Civil War alike.
David Chapman
> In article <3E2B0171...@email.uc.edu>, tom dunne wrote:
>
>> And incidentally, J. Michael Straczynski has personally replied to
>> the original thread (Robert and Me), to explain the difficulties
>> with the B5 internet communities. Whatever you think of B5, you
>> have to admire the man's interaction with the public; imagine if we
>> had a confirmed RJ sighting here ;)
>
> No good could possibly come of that.
>
> Some writers do really well in on-line, fan-populated fora.
> Others do not. Just imagine Harlan Ellison, for example, or *look* at
> Stirling.
On Stirling (AKA Nyarlathogrep) I'll concede the point, but I
don't know that Ellison wouldn't do well. What's your
reasoning?
> I suspect Robert Jordan is one whose on-line presence would not go
> down well.
Mainly because he'd get his throat ripped out with his own
teeth in short order - metaphorically speaking. Demands to
know who killed Asmo, a universal cry of "stop reading this
and finish the damn books already" etc. etc.
Ian Montgomerie
wrote:
>"Ian Montgomerie" <i...@ianmontgomerie.com> wrote in message
>> Then it came to the climactic episode, and half way through, I thought
>> "I don't believe it, he's making the KIRK SPEECH!"
>>
>> (The Kirk Speech is what I call the cheesy climaxes often found in
>> Star Trek where the captain gives a short, moralistic tongue-lashing
>> to warring aliens, superintelligent beings, etc., and it's at least
>> implied that this demonstrates to them the error of their ways. But I
>> wonder if it should henceforth be called the Sheridan Speech, because
>> in Star Trek it only left a bad taste in your mouth after watching a
>> given show, not a whole series)
>
>
>Given the amount of backstory regarding the shadows, the Vorlons, Minbari,
>Humans, Narns, Centauri, etc, the conclusion of the Shadow War made sense -
>and was the only proper conclusion. A huge battle would've been the result
>the Shadows sought, and to surrender and let the Vorlons kick the Shadows
>down would've been the result the Vorlons sought.
The problem is, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone
other than the Shadows or Vorlons to get what they were looking for.
The fact that the scenario was written into a corner such that the
only way out was the Kirk Speech - a few minutes of harangue instantly
convincing superintelligent aliens that their societies have for
millions of years based themselves around the wrong principle - is
hardly an argument for the plausibility or non-suckingness of the Kirk
Speech.
>Aside from being slightly melodramatic - what's the problem? Certainly, some
>of the episodes had less than stellar writing, but otherwise, the conclusion
>(disregarding season 5, which I've yet to see) was rather well executed -
>Shadow War and Human Civil War alike.
I could not disagree more. The aphorism "jumped the shark" comes to
mind.
David Chapman
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:51:31 GMT, "Ilya Popov" <il...@metalinker.com>
> wrote:
>> Given the amount of backstory regarding the shadows, the Vorlons,
>> Minbari, Humans, Narns, Centauri, etc, the conclusion of the Shadow
>> War made sense - and was the only proper conclusion. A huge battle
>> would've been the result the Shadows sought, and to surrender and
>> let the Vorlons kick the Shadows down would've been the result the
>> Vorlons sought.
>
> The problem is, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone
> other than the Shadows or Vorlons to get what they were looking for.
May I suggest you actually watch the fucking show before
making statements like that and "jumped the shark"?
Sheridan had several Elder Races *other* than the Vorlons
on his side, not to mention Lorien. That's two pretty big
reasons right there.
Maggie
> In article <3E2B0171...@email.uc.edu>, tom dunne wrote:
>
> > And incidentally, J. Michael Straczynski has personally replied to the
> > original thread (Robert and Me), to explain the difficulties with the B5
> > internet communities. Whatever you think of B5, you have to admire the
> > man's interaction with the public; imagine if we had a confirmed RJ
> > sighting here ;)
>
> No good could possibly come of that.
>
> Some writers do really well in on-line, fan-populated fora.
> Others do not. Just imagine Harlan Ellison, for example
I'm imagining...and grinning ear to ear...
He doesn't suffer fools.
--
Maggie UIN 10248195 http://www.darkfriends.net <--updated!
"Shadow found himself thinking about a garage in San Clemente with box
after box of rare, strange and beautiful books in it rotting away, all of
them browning and wilting and being eaten by mold and insects in the
darkness, waiting for someone who would never come to set them free." -
Neil Gaiman, cut from _American Gods_
Ian Montgomerie
Not really. And why is it the standard fanboy response to
disagreement to state that the other person must not have watched the
show/read the book if they don't follow the approved fanboy opinion?
Tedious.
Sean O'Hara
> > Others do not. Just imagine Harlan Ellison, for example
>
> I'm imagining...and grinning ear to ear...
>
> He doesn't suffer fools.
>
another flamewar with S&M Stir1ing.
--
Sean O'Hara
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid rabbit suit?
Frank: Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
--Richard Kelly, "Donnie Darko"
David Chapman
> why is it the standard fanboy response to
> disagreement to state that the other person must not have watched the
> show/read the book if they don't follow the approved fanboy opinion?
I think in this case you'll find it's the standard sane person
response to the other person dismissing the facts against
his case.
David Chapman
> The Department of Pre-Crime reports that Ian Montgomerie will say:
>
>> why is it the standard fanboy response to
>> disagreement to state that the other person must not have watched the
>> show/read the book if they don't follow the approved fanboy opinion?
>
> I think in this case you'll find it's the standard sane person
> response to the other person dismissing the facts against
> his case.
Addendum, as that was too terse:
The Shadows and Vorlons didn't stop fighting and go away
because Sheridan told them to. They listened to Sheridan
only because the other First Ones were there, and left only
because the one entity both sides respected said "He's right,
you know".
Sean O'Hara
>
> The problem is, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone
> other than the Shadows or Vorlons to get what they were looking for.
> The fact that the scenario was written into a corner such that the
> only way out was the Kirk Speech - a few minutes of harangue instantly
> convincing superintelligent aliens that their societies have for
> millions of years based themselves around the wrong principle - is
> hardly an argument for the plausibility or non-suckingness of the Kirk
> Speech.
>
with what actually happened. The Shadows and Vorlons didn't leave
because of Sheridan's speech; they left because the coallition
ships were sacrificing themselves to save Sheridan. The younger
races weren't going to play anymore. The only alternative to
leaving was to destroy everyone and duke it out without
intermediaries.
Plus, there were a bunch of Old Ones standing to the side looking
really annoyed.
Sean O'Hara
>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:14:31 GMT, tom dunne <dun...@email.uc.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >He is leaving, that's true. But it's not some fully contrived plot
> >device. He went to Earth not to return home, exactly, but to prepare
> >Earth for the real, inevitable threats out in the galaxy. Both Scarrans
> >and Peacemakers want his wormhole knowledge, and he knows that staying
> >on Earth will bring them there eventually (Comandant Cleavage is already
> >planning that). That concern has been something he's wrestled with
> >since season 2. Additionally, like the survivor of a war, many have
> >remarked that he just doesn't fit on Earth anymore. He's seen too much,
> >done too much - made new friends and fallen in love - to ever just pack
> >it all in and move to a beach house on the Gulf coast.
>
> It's funny that early in the series, he *HAD* no wormhole knowledge.
> It was a mistake. He had no way of getting back because he had no
> idea how he got there in the first place.
>
now to give him knowledge of wormholes.
O, wait, it did.
It's been the central plotline since the end of the first season.
> Besides, it makes no sense that any of the aliens would want anything
> to do with Earth to begin with. Creighton was considered a
> sub-creature, ignorant, archaic and with no worthwhile knowledge or
> skills. Earth technology is ridiculously low compared to everyone
> else. Why would the Scarrans or Peacemakers even bother with Earth,
> especially since it's so far away.
>
They don't want anything with Earth (except possibly to add
another planet to their empires). But they do want Crichton's
knowledge of wormholes. Holding his homeworld hostage is pretty
good leverage.
> Like I said, the show started out with promise, then it turned into
> every crap SF premise anyone has ever come up with. No thanks, it
> deserved to be cancelled.
>
"I don't like the show so it should be cancelled." Good reasoning.
Ilya Popov
message news:3E2C41A6...@myrealbox.com...
Although it's still not clear (to me) why the Ancients decided they should
give Crichton (Not Creighton - where the hell did that come from?) the
wormhole tech. Did they think that he, out of an entire universe, and even
moreso than Aeryn or anyone else, could use it responsibly and wisely? And
although it's a plot device that may have perhaps run its course (and
steam), it was still an effective one nonetheless.
Sean O'Hara
>
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:49:00 -0800, Brian Henderson
>
> >D'Argo became a wimp. The whole character of
> >Scorpius is ridiculous. Chianna, as a character, should be taken out
> >and shot in the head several times with a high caliber weapon.
> >Virginia Hey should NEVER have left the show, but at least her
> >character isn't drowning in the final sinking of an overburdened
> >Titanic like Farscape.
>
> So you don't like the characters, thats not a qualitative judgement.
> Scorpius is ridiculous because he is so over the top, but that makes
> him an extremely enjoyable character.
>
What makes Scorpius great is that he's a moustache-twirling villain
who's been fleshed out into a complex, competent character without
losing any of his edge.
One of the problems with recurring villains in series is that
they stop being threatening after the fourth or fifth time
they're defeated. "O, the Borg again. Let's show them some M.C.
Escher pictures." "The Daleks! Quick, up the stairs." The
Farscape writers got around the problem by doing something
completely different -- they let him win. The second season
revolved around his plan to extract wormhole information from
Crichton's head (literally), and he did exactly that in the
season finale. And it wasn't a cliffhanger where everything was
rectified in the next episode; an entire season passed before
Our Heroes found a way to thwart Scorpius.
Even better, the writers gave Scorpius a very good motivation for
what he does -- he sees his life's work as the only thing standing
between his civilization and destruction, and he'll do anything
to advance his cause. He's completely ruthless, but in a way he's
absolutely right.
I especially like what's happened to him this season. He's lost
everything he worked for, so he's made his new mission in life
to keep the information in Crichton's head from falling into the
wrong hands. But unlike Spike on "Buffy" the transformation into
a good guy hasn't neutered the character -- in fact, Scorpius is
no more a good guy now than he was a bad guy before.
And he can *still* get away with twirling his moustache.
Maggie
whispered...
> Maggie wrote:
> >
> > John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> softly whispered...
> > >
> > > Some writers do really well in on-line, fan-populated fora.
> > > Others do not. Just imagine Harlan Ellison, for example
> >
> > I'm imagining...and grinning ear to ear...
> >
> > He doesn't suffer fools.
> >
> Now imagine killing dozens of threads because Harlan's started
> another flamewar with S&M Stir1ing.
Point.
Though it might be amusing for a little while - I like Ellison's blunt
turn of phrase.
Brian Henderson
<evil...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>Andromeda is ... adequate. It's fun, it's pretty, it has its
>moments, but it's in no way great TV. B5 was great TV.
Andromeda is Roddenberry, for better or worse. The only good part
about it was that once he re-established the Commonwealth, the show
didn't end and the main character didn't turn into god. Not many
shows could pull that off.
B5 was, without question, the best SF show on television in the past
half century.