Galad and Rand. Half Brothers?
Kevin McBurnett
If Galad's mommy ran off to the Aiel and became a Maiden of the Spear,
there by being Rand's mommy too, why hasn't Jordan or anyone else made
any reference to this? I even looked into the FAQ for answers.
Kevin McBurnett
John S. Novak
You are claiming that the FAQ contains no information on Rand's and
Galad's blood relationship?
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
The Humblest Man on the Net
Kevin McBurnett
John S. Novak wrote:
I didn't see anything, but I will admit that it was just a quick glance.
Kevin
Kevin McBurnett
Nevermind, I just found it. But it still doens't make sense that noone made a
big deal about it. I'm read tSR right now, (for the second time) and when Amys
is telling about Rand's mum, it clicked in my head that Rand and Galad were
bro's. This seems to be a huge issue.
John S. Novak
>> You are claiming that the FAQ contains no information on Rand's and
>> Galad's blood relationship?
> I didn't see anything, but I will admit that it was just a quick glance.
S'interesting, since the FAQ was created precisely because people were
tired of answering that bloody question.
Besides, Rand knows full well who his half-brother is.
Marco Kotteman
Kevin McBurnett heeft geschreven in bericht
<8QTx.3$V31.1...@typhoon.texas.net>...
>If Galad's mommy ran off to the Aiel and became a Maiden of the Spear,
>there by being Rand's mommy too, why hasn't Jordan or anyone else made
>any reference to this? I even looked into the FAQ for answers.
>
Duh...Probably for some plot-twist later on??
C-ya,
Marco
Chris Mullins
Kevin McBurnett wrote in message <8QTx.3$V31.1...@typhoon.texas.net>...
:If Galad's mommy ran off to the Aiel and became a Maiden of the Spear,
:there by being Rand's mommy too, why hasn't Jordan or anyone else made
:any reference to this? I even looked into the FAQ for answers.
This is in the FAQ, as I know has already been pointed out, but here is my
theory...
Eladia, who had a foretelling some time ago that said the "Royal Line of
Andor" would be the key to winning the last battle, has interpreted this to
mean that Elayne must be alive and present at the Last Battle, or else the
dark one will win. During the course of this, she has spent considerable
effort to capturing Rand, and either keeping him shielded until the battle,
or just saying "to hell with him!" and gentling him.
Unknown to her, Rand is also a member of the Royal line of Andor. I believe
she will do an about fact once she realizes this and do her utmost to keep
Rand same.
Of course, the upcoming confrontation between Rand and Galad is going to be
that much more interesting because, once he found out, Galad would NEVER
kill his half brother.
Chris Mullins
Dave Rothgery
Chris Mullins wrote in message <6abbh5$u1$1...@nnrp1.ni.net>...
>Eladia, who had a foretelling some time ago that said the "Royal Line of
>Andor" would be the key to winning the last battle, has interpreted this to
>mean that Elayne must be alive and present at the Last Battle, or else the
>dark one will win.
>
>Unknown to her, Rand is also a member of the Royal line of Andor.
>
No he isn't.
For once, Elaida is (mostly) correct.
He's the illegitimate child of a woman who was once Daughter-Heir. By the
time Rand was born, Morgase was on the Lion throne, and as such, Trakand was
the Royal House (or the Royal line or whatever ... Elaida never explicitly
states the exact wording). Elaida almost definitely had her Foretelling
during the (third War of the Andoran) Succession, when no one knew who the
ruling house would be, but it certainly wasn't Mantear (Tigraine's house).
Galad and Gawyn have few unique abilities that would make them critical;
Elayne is the only one alive who can make *angreal.
--
Dave Rothgery WPI Computer Science '98
dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth/
Dagurashibanipal
On 23 Jan 1998 03:40:10 GMT, J...@galileo.cris.com (John S. Novak)
wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:07:48 GMT, Kevin McBurnett
><twist@{nospam}texas.net> wrote:
>
>>[...] I even looked into the FAQ for answers.
>
>You are claiming that the FAQ contains no information on Rand's and
>Galad's blood relationship?
He isn't. He just don't want to say what he has found in the FAQ.
(...being ecstatic: posts now begin to show up the day they were
written!)
--
Greets from over there
Dagurashibanipal
avbi...@datacomm.ch
For a moment, nothing happended.
Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
Chris Byler
On 23 Jan 1998 04:23:34 GMT, J...@galileo.cris.com (John S. Novak)
wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:01:35 GMT, Kevin McBurnett
><twist@{nospam}texas.net> wrote:
>>> You are claiming that the FAQ contains no information on Rand's and
>>> Galad's blood relationship?
>> I didn't see anything, but I will admit that it was just a quick glance.
A quick grep might be more useful than a quick glance for such a large
document.
>S'interesting, since the FAQ was created precisely because people were
>tired of answering that bloody question.
>Besides, Rand knows full well who his half-brother is.
Don't you mean "Rand has all the information available to him to
deduce who his half-brother is"?
It doesn't necessarily mean he's figured it out yet. It might just
not have occurred to him to make the connection; and after all, he
does have a few other things on his mind.
Chris
--
Chris Byler cby...@okra.deltast.edu
Nynaeve: "I can be as stubborn as I have to be."
Lan: "I hadn't noticed."
-- Robert Jordan, _A Crown of Swords_, ch. 31
John Bilow
In article <34c91b12...@news.vt.edu>, cby...@REMOVE-TO-REPLY.vt.edu (Chris Byler) wrote:
>On 23 Jan 1998 04:23:34 GMT, J...@galileo.cris.com (John S. Novak)
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:01:35 GMT, Kevin McBurnett
>><twist@{nospam}texas.net> wrote:
>
>>Besides, Rand knows full well who his half-brother is.
>
>Don't you mean "Rand has all the information available to him to
>deduce who his half-brother is"?
>
>It doesn't necessarily mean he's figured it out yet. It might just
>not have occurred to him to make the connection; and after all, he
>does have a few other things on his mind.
>
>Chris
>
He figured it out in LoC when he realized that Tigraine was his mom.
John Bilow
To reply, remove spamblock from my address
John S. Novak
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:50:00 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>Elaida almost definitely had her Foretelling
>during the (third War of the Andoran) Succession,
Really? Evidence, please?
Dave Rothgery
John S. Novak wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:50:00 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>Elaida almost definitely had her Foretelling
>>during the (third War of the Andoran) Succession,
>
>Really? Evidence, please?
>
Okay.
Given (all of these are explicitly stated in the books somewhere):
1) Elaida had her foretelling while she was an Accepted.
2) Elaida was an Accepted while Siuan and Moiraine were novices.
3) Moiraine and Siuan were Accepted during the Aeil War, and were accepted
for three years. They were raised to the shawl shortly after the battle of
the Shining Walls.
4) The Aeil War lasted three years.
5) Tigraine disappeared four years before the Aeil War started.
6) Moiraine and Siuan were novices for three years.
7) Elaida was an accepted for at least some of the period where Moiraine and
Siuan were novices.
8) Queen Morrelin's death (two years after Tigraine's disappearance), set
off the Third War (maybe it was fourth; most of my books are at home and the
exact number is somewhat hazy) for the Andoran Succession.
Assumptions (which I think are somewhat reasonable):
1) To know Moiraine and Siuan beyond just in passing before they were AS,
I'd say Elaida had to have been an accepted for two years of this period.
2) Elaida did not spend significantly more time as an Accepted than Moiraine
and Siuan did -- no much more than three years.
3) She, Moiraine, and Siuan were never Accepted at the same time.
Hence:
Argument from Timing:
With a minium two year overlap, and a three-year acceptance, it is
impossible for Elaida to have had her Foretelling before Tigraine's
disappearance.
There is, though, a two-year window between Tigraine's disappearance and the
beginning of the Succession, IIRC. Which would mean even if all my
assumptions are correct (except the last one -- evidence of Elaida sharing
some time as Accepted with Moiraine and Siuan would make this easier to
prove), there are four possible years for Elaida to have had her
foretelling, and so there's a 50% chance that I'm right.
But here is where Elaida's actions come into play.
If Morellin were still alive, Elaida would have at least considered the
possibility of her Foretelling refering to Galad, no matter how much of a
man-hating Red she is. If it were made not long after Tigraine's
disappearance, she might have even entertained notions that Tigraine was
still alive.
Instead, she attached herself to Morgase as soon as it became clear that
Trakand would come out ahead in the Succession; this strongly implies that
it was not clear when she had her Foretelling.
And then there some meta-reasons with no real textual support:
Elaida's Foretelling having any connection to Rand at all would be a
Foretelling that provided no useful information. No one (except possibly
Gitara Moromoso) at the time knew that Rand was/would be Tigraine's son, and
the fact is somewhat irrelevant. The key to victory in the last battle is
the Dragon Reborn? This takes a Foretelling to reveal? Something that any
two-bit gleeman already knows? I just don't see it.
Devin L. Ganger
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:50:00 -0500,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Dave Rothgery wrote:
> No he isn't.
> For once, Elaida is (mostly) correct.
Uh.
Lead on with this, and we'll see where you're going...
> He's the illegitimate child of a woman who was once Daughter-Heir. By the
> time Rand was born, Morgase was on the Lion throne, and as such, Trakand was
> the Royal House (or the Royal line or whatever ... Elaida never explicitly
> states the exact wording). Elaida almost definitely had her Foretelling
> during the (third War of the Andoran) Succession, when no one knew who the
> ruling house would be, but it certainly wasn't Mantear (Tigraine's house).
Cite.
I'm at work, or I'd go look it up myself, but my understanding was that
Elaida had the Foretelling *before* the Succession, and attached herself
to House Trakand *after* it started to become clear that Moiraine was going
to be the winner.
At the time she had the Foretelling, the *current* ruling family of Andor
*was* the key to the defeat of the Dark One.
Don't bother asking me to cite; I'll go digging when I get home.
--
Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net>
Chief Systems Administrator
Premier1 Internet Services
Michelle Haines
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Dave Rothgery wrote:
> states the exact wording). Elaida almost definitely had her Foretelling
> during the (third War of the Andoran) Succession, when no one knew who the
> ruling house would be, but it certainly wasn't Mantear (Tigraine's house).
> Galad and Gawyn have few unique abilities that would make them critical;
ReallY? I seem to remember her having that Foretelling as a novice, ,yes?
Or was it as an early Accepted? I always got het impression that she had
that Foretelling while Tigraine was still the Daughter-Heir of Andor --
maybe because it seem to me to somewhat coiincide with that meddling
Keeper's/Queen's advisor, who's name escapes me at the moment. It is just
an impression on my part, fo course, so I dont' have any real evidence to
back it up. Is there any concrete evidence to support Elaida's
Foretelling as after the Succession?
Michelle
Flutist
Devin L. Ganger
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:50:27 -0500,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Dave Rothgery wrote:
> If Morellin were still alive, Elaida would have at least considered the
> possibility of her Foretelling refering to Galad, no matter how much of a
> man-hating Red she is. If it were made not long after Tigraine's
> disappearance, she might have even entertained notions that Tigraine was
> still alive.
I think you're overestimating Elaida's flexibility of thought. She is
an Aes Sedai, part of a group of *women* who rule (however covertly it
may be).
Andoran succession is based on the female, *not* the male, and despite
Tigraine's disappearance, the ruling family up until the Succession was
still her bloodline. Galad could not be the key, in Elaida's mind, to
a Foretelling about the Andoran ruling line (and rightfully so) because
he wasn't a part of it by virtue of gender.
> Instead, she attached herself to Morgase as soon as it became clear that
> Trakand would come out ahead in the Succession; this strongly implies that
> it was not clear when she had her Foretelling.
All this means is that she latched onto a mis-interpretation of her
Foretelling and took it as gospel.
> Elaida's Foretelling having any connection to Rand at all would be a
> Foretelling that provided no useful information. No one (except possibly
> Gitara Moromoso) at the time knew that Rand was/would be Tigraine's son, and
> the fact is somewhat irrelevant. The key to victory in the last battle is
> the Dragon Reborn? This takes a Foretelling to reveal? Something that any
> two-bit gleeman already knows? I just don't see it.
No, the key to the victory is that Tigraine, a member of the then-ruling
Andoran line, would become the *mother* of the Dragon Reborn.
Her Foretelling was another sign (only badly mis-interpreted) that the
Dragon was about to show up and the Last Battle was fast approaching.
John S. Novak
On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:50:27 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>>Really? Evidence, please?
>Okay.
This is interesting.
I'm relying on Emma's timeline for much of this.
(My copy of the Guide is out on loan, and I'm not certain how much
information would be there, anyway.)
Here's how I see the decade of the 970's:
970 Nothing much
971 Luc disappears
972 Tigraine disappears
Moiraine (and Siuan?) become Novices
975 Moiraine (and Siuan?) become Accepted
976 Start of Aiel War
978 Conclusion of Aiel War
Moiraine and Siuan raised to Aes Sedai
My dates or Moiraine and Siuan being rasied to Aes Sedai come from the
same recollection you have of Moiraine being a Novice for three years,
and an Accepted for three more.
Now, working from relevant bits of what you say (snipping what I don't
think is relevant, or what is already covered in the above timeline)
we have this:
>1) Elaida had her foretelling while she was an Accepted.
>2) Elaida was an Accepted while Siuan and Moiraine were novices.
Okay.
Phrase as, "The time during which Elaida was Accepted overlapped with
the time during which Moiraine and Siuan were novices."
I think it is reasonable to assume that Elaida was Accepted for a
longer period of time than Moiraine was accepted, and that she was a
Novice for a longer time than Moiraine was a Novice, simply because
Moiraine's six-year total tenure is noted somewhere as being
"meteoric."
I have always had the impression as well, bolstered by the above, that
Elaida was considerably (ie, at least five, more likely ten, possibly
even fifteen) years older than Moiraine.
>3) Moiraine and Siuan were Accepted during the Aeil War, and were accepted
>for three years. They were raised to the shawl shortly after the battle of
>the Shining Walls.
Is it inference that makes you say they were Accepted during the Aiel
War, or is there a direct quote? If there is a direct quote, then
either Emma's timeline is wrong, Jordan's timeline is inconsistent, or
there's some liberty taken with the dates-- if the war really lasted
three years and five months, while Moiraine's Noviate or period of
Acceptance were really three years and seven months each, then those
parts of the timeline get hazy.
>8) Queen Morrelin's death (two years after Tigraine's disappearance), set
>off the Third War (maybe it was fourth; most of my books are at home and the
>exact number is somewhat hazy) for the Andoran Succession.
Modrellein, I believe.
Further, in tDR it is said that the Succession took about a year.
This updates my timeline to be:
970 Nothing much
971 Luc disappears
972 Tigraine disappears
Moiraine (and Siuan?) become Novices
974 Death of Modrellein
Beginning of the Succession War of Andor
975 Moiraine (and Siuan?) become Accepted
Morgase takes the throne of Andor
976 Start of Aiel War
978 Conclusion of Aiel War
Moiraine and Siuan raised to Aes Sedai
It would seem to me that until Morgase took the throne, Tigraine would
still have been the Hir. Or part of the royal line, or whatever.
Certainly, Morgase and her progeny did not begin fitting that bill
until 975.
>Assumptions (which I think are somewhat reasonable):
>1) To know Moiraine and Siuan beyond just in passing before they were AS,
>I'd say Elaida had to have been an accepted for two years of this period.
Please be more specific.
Do you say that Elaida must have been an Accepted for at least two
years of the six year period during which Moiraine was Novice and
Accepted? I agree, but I think that's an underestimate.
>2) Elaida did not spend significantly more time as an Accepted than Moiraine
>and Siuan did -- no much more than three years.
I question this.
I do not think this is reasonable, and so I went digging for a quote.
Check Moiraine's Glossary entry in LoC. Moiraine's six year tenure
being described as meteoric makes me think in terms of someone
finishing an undergrad and graduate degree in three years or so.
If I had to guess a time span for Elaida being an Accepted alone, I'd
probably pick something like five to eight years. I'd peg her being
raised to Aes Sedai sometime during the Aiel War. Pick a middling
date, say 975. That means I think the beginning of her Acceptance
would be somewhere from 967 to 970, ending some time around 975.
In this scenario, there is a small chance that Elaida gave her
Foretelling in 974 or 975. There is a smaller chance that she gave it
in 975, after Morgase took the throne of Andor.
Now, I'm willing to slide Elaida's period of being Accepted around a
little bit, or to stretch it some or compress it a little. But my
instinct is to move the time _back_, which would end up having Elaida
raised to the shawl some time prior to the end of the Succession, and
likely before the beginning of the Succession.
>3) She, Moiraine, and Siuan were never Accepted at the same time.
Well, hell.
Moiraine was Accepted in 975, yes?
You then claim that the latest date Elaida could have been raised to
the shawl was in 975. Possibly (probably) earlier than that.
We seem to be reducing the intersection between Elaida being Accepted
and Morgase sitting the throne of Andor to a matter of a few months at
most, and to zero (which is more likely, IMO) at least.
(As an aside, I will agree with the statement, based on my earlier
ramblings to the effect that Elaida seems to have been notably older
than Moiraine.)
>Argument from Timing:
>With a minium two year overlap, and a three-year acceptance, it is
>impossible for Elaida to have had her Foretelling before Tigraine's
>disappearance.
I have the following observations:
First, as I say, I have grave difficulties with a three year
Acceptance for Elaida. If I accept that, then what you say is true.
However, I take a four year Acceptance as a flat minimum, which makes
it barely possible. I still think five to eight is more reasonable,
which makes it more than possible.
Second, Modrellein's line _was_ the royal line for well past
Tigraine's disappearance. Two years after her disappearance at the
very least (until Modrellein's death) three years at the most (until
the end of the Succession.)
I prefer the 975 date, myself.
It was not until 975 (or at least, the end of the Succession) that
Morgase took the throne. She and her progeny could _not_ have been
considered the royal line, and House Trakand could not have been
considered the royal house until such a time.
>There is, though, a two-year window between Tigraine's disappearance and the
>beginning of the Succession, IIRC.
One year, I believe.
>Which would mean even if all my
>assumptions are correct (except the last one -- evidence of Elaida sharing
>some time as Accepted with Moiraine and Siuan would make this easier to
>prove), there are four possible years for Elaida to have had her
>foretelling, and so there's a 50% chance that I'm right.
I believe I have had the honor of demolishing your assumptions.
I also have the privilege of pointing out that you need to think in
terms of Morgase's ascendance, not Tigraine's disappearance.(*)
>But here is where Elaida's actions come into play.
Which are irrelevent, at this point.
>If Morellin were still alive, Elaida would have at least considered the
>possibility of her Foretelling refering to Galad, no matter how much of a
>man-hating Red she is. If it were made not long after Tigraine's
>disappearance, she might have even entertained notions that Tigraine was
>still alive.
Devin has addressed at least part fo this already.
Further, I don't think Elaida is being subtle about her Foretelling.
We are thinking in terms of, "When was her Foretelling? What was the
Royal House at that moment?" Elaida seems to be thinking, "What is the
Royal House at _this_ moment?"
You perceive the difference.
>And then there some meta-reasons with no real textual support:
>Elaida's Foretelling having any connection to Rand at all would be a
>Foretelling that provided no useful information. No one (except possibly
>Gitara Moromoso) at the time knew that Rand was/would be Tigraine's son, and
>the fact is somewhat irrelevant.
It might have been _quite_ useful, if Elaida followed it up correctly.
Let's say she made her Foretelling publicly known. Or that somehow,
word of it reached Gitara Moroso. Gitara seems to have had a hand in
first Luc's, and then Tigraine's disappearance.
Now, we don't know if Gitara knew she was working toward the
culmination of the Karaethon Cycle. Let us assume that she did not,
for a moment, that she was working from equally cryptic Foretellings
of her own. Still, hearing of Elaida's Foretelling, she might thusly
think to herself, "Hey! Maybe this has something to do with that!"
At which point she could have taken action herself, or shared it with
Elaida and pointed Elaida to the Waste, three years or more before
Rand's birth, eliminating the entire eighteen year period during which
no one knew where Rand was.
Or let us assume Gitara Moroso _did_ know what she was about, that she
was perhaps working off of less cryptic Foretellings. Elaida's
Foretelling could have been a certain sign that Gitara was meant to
trust her to a degree.
(This assumes Elaida had her Foretelling after the disappearance, not
before.)
Even in the absence of collusion with Gitara, it could have been
enough to send Elaida chasing and researching after Tigraine with
similar results.
* Damn Brust.
All week long, it's been:
"Huh."
"Excuse me, Bill, I believe you said, 'Huh.'"
"Well, and if I did?"
"Then I should be pleased to know the reason behind your exhalation."
"I have the honor of attempting to test this circuit."
"You perceive that this is of no help to me."
"You are aware that it is a complex active circuit."
"This I am."
"You are likewise aware that, as such, this circuit contains op-amps."
"You do me the honor of stating the obvious."
"Yet the input terminals display a voltage difference."
"Thank you, good sir, I now perceive the source of your
consternation."
Or maybe not.
Michael Kozlowski
In article <slrn6clc9...@mariner.cris.com>,
John S. Novak <J...@mariner.cris.com> wrote:
>
>* Damn Brust.
> All week long, it's been:
>
>"Huh."
>"Excuse me, Bill, I believe you said, 'Huh.'"
>"Well, and if I did?"
>"Then I should be pleased to know the reason behind your exhalation."
>"I have the honor of attempting to test this circuit."
>"You perceive that this is of no help to me."
>"You are aware that it is a complex active circuit."
>"This I am."
>"You are likewise aware that, as such, this circuit contains op-amps."
>"You do me the honor of stating the obvious."
>"Yet the input terminals display a voltage difference."
>"Thank you, good sir, I now perceive the source of your
>consternation."
I wish there were a way to express amusement that didn't read like a bit
of IRC jargon. "ROTFL" and "LOL" just don't do it for me, and I'll be
damned if I'm going to lower my dignity to the extent of writing
"*giggle*".
But consider me well amused, at any rate.
(As for myself, I had considerable difficulties writing e-mails after
reading _Freedom and Necessity_. I sounded like someone doing a bad Jane
Austen impersonation...)
--
Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu
Recommended SF (Updated 1/18): http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html
John S. Novak
On 25 Jan 1998 06:08:03 GMT, Michael Kozlowski <m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>* Damn Brust.
>> All week long, it's been:
>>"You are aware that it is a complex active circuit."
Dammit.
That was supposed to be, "active filter."
>I wish there were a way to express amusement that didn't read like a bit
>of IRC jargon. "ROTFL" and "LOL" just don't do it for me, and I'll be
>damned if I'm going to lower my dignity to the extent of writing
>"*giggle*".
I think HTML 4.0 includes the specifications for the <snicker> tag.
>(As for myself, I had considerable difficulties writing e-mails after
>reading _Freedom and Necessity_. I sounded like someone doing a bad Jane
>Austen impersonation...)
It's been a trying time not speaking like that at work.
I have been saved primarily by the fact that no one else would
comprehend.
Then again, that may be a good thing.
I can't image going through a staff meeting like that...
Michelle Haines
On 25 Jan 1998, John S. Novak wrote:
> It might have been _quite_ useful, if Elaida followed it up correctly.
> Let's say she made her Foretelling publicly known. Or that somehow,
> word of it reached Gitara Moroso. Gitara seems to have had a hand in
> first Luc's, and then Tigraine's disappearance.
Since it's Elaida's recollection that she was very careful to tell no one
about her Foretelling, it says something like "wisely kept it a secret" or
"wisely told no one" in her books, I think -- damn I wish I knew whcih box
they were in! -- I think it's a fair assumption that Gitara did NOT know
about Elaida's Foretelling and was just working on her own visions.
Michelle
Flutist
Richard M. Boye'
Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>
> <flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:50:27 -0500,
> in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> > possibility of her Foretelling refering to Galad, no matter how much of a
> > man-hating Red she is. If it were made not long after Tigraine's
> > disappearance, she might have even entertained notions that Tigraine was
> > still alive.
>
> an Aes Sedai, part of a group of *women* who rule (however covertly it
> may be).
>
> Andoran succession is based on the female, *not* the male, and despite
> Tigraine's disappearance, the ruling family up until the Succession was
> still her bloodline. Galad could not be the key, in Elaida's mind, to
> a Foretelling about the Andoran ruling line (and rightfully so) because
> he wasn't a part of it by virtue of gender.
I know I'm drunk and am dazzled in my thought processes by by the
effects of alchohol and orgasms, but I just thought I'd add this into
your considerations, but:
House Trakand's sigil is a 'keystone.'
And Morgase's personal sigil is silver keys (I'm pretty sure it's
Three). (read: elayne, gawyn and Galad)
RJ must have loaded that sort of symbolism for a reason.
QED: The Trakand line is crucial to TG.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo
"But other than that Mrs. Lincoln,
how did you like the play?"
Dave Rothgery
Dave Rothgery wrote in message <6aem4j$kc8$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>...
[Just correcting some things that I typed incorrectly at 2 in the morning;
would have cancelled an posted a corrected version, but propogation delay
means a lot of people have seen the original already ...]
>The length of time someone spends as an accepted and as a novice seems
>directly proportional to strength in the power.
^^^^^^^^
IM 'inversely', obviously.
>Teslyn thinks Elaida was over-pampered when
^^^^^^
IM 'Joline' (in ACoS, though I don't recall the chapter).
>she was a novice (the same thing Elaida thought of Moiraine, Siuan, and
>later Egwene and Nynaeve).
ThumBoy666
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.980125...@isis.netherworld.com>,
Michelle Haines <mha...@netherworld.com> writes:
>Since it's Elaida's recollection that she was very careful to tell no
>one about her Foretelling, it says something like "wisely kept it a secret"
>or "wisely told no one" in her books, I think -- damn I wish I knew whcih
>box they were in! -- I think it's a fair assumption that Gitara did NOT
>know about Elaida's Foretelling and was just working on her own visions.
Not so related to the topic, actually, but I've always wondered this: In EotW,
Elaida supposedly has a Fortelling about Rand. She speaks three times: first
about the Shadow spreading, then about Andor going into "pain and division,"
and then about Rand standing "at the heart of it all." She does not speak very
riddle-like, and even speaks to her Queen in a normal way _while_ she's having
her fortelling. She shows no visible signs of having a Fortelling except that
in the third part of it she is barely whispering. She doesn't tremble. I'm
not saying she didn't have a Fortelling, just that it's kind of weird. Anyone
have any thoughts on this?
--
"The stone exploded. No...he and the conjoined stones were the only things
that had _not_ exploded...It was the universe that had detonated."
-Sandy- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2764/index.html
Lwc inc
Chris Mullins wrote:
<snip>
>Of course, the upcoming confrontation between Rand and Galad is going to be
>that much more interesting because, once he found out, Galad would NEVER
>kill his half brother.
Maybe. Galad believes in the Law. If Rand broke a Law that, as written,
requires the death penalty, Galad would feel sorry for him. Then he would kill
him. No matter what relation he is.
--Luke Cooper
You are what you eat. Choose wisely. --ancient Chinese "fortune"
John S. Novak
>Since it's Elaida's recollection that she was very careful to tell no one
>about her Foretelling, it says something like "wisely kept it a secret" or
>"wisely told no one" in her books, I think -- damn I wish I knew whcih box
>they were in! -- I think it's a fair assumption that Gitara did NOT know
>about Elaida's Foretelling and was just working on her own visions.
Well, yes. I agree entirely.
But then again, my entire conjecture was phrased in the subjunctive.
_If_ Gitara had been made aware, _then_ the following might have
happened.
Richard M. Boye'
Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>
> <flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:50:27 -0500,
> in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> Foretelling and took it as gospel.
>
> Andoran line, would become the *mother* of the Dragon Reborn.
>
> Her Foretelling was another sign (only badly mis-interpreted) that the
> Dragon was about to show up and the Last Battle was fast approaching.
But, just to interject here:
House Trakand's sigil is a 'keystone.'
Morgase's sigil is 'three keys.' (Read: Elayne, Gawyn & Galad)
RJ doesn't create symbolisms like that by accident.
Richard M. Boye'
ThumBoy666 wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.980125...@isis.netherworld.com>,
> Michelle Haines <mha...@netherworld.com> writes:
>
> >one about her Foretelling, it says something like "wisely kept it a secret"
> >or "wisely told no one" in her books, I think -- damn I wish I knew whcih
> >box they were in! -- I think it's a fair assumption that Gitara did NOT
> >know about Elaida's Foretelling and was just working on her own visions.
>
> Elaida supposedly has a Fortelling about Rand. She speaks three times: first
> about the Shadow spreading, then about Andor going into "pain and division,"
> and then about Rand standing "at the heart of it all." She does not speak very
> riddle-like, and even speaks to her Queen in a normal way _while_ she's having
> her fortelling. She shows no visible signs of having a Fortelling except that
> in the third part of it she is barely whispering. She doesn't tremble. I'm
> not saying she didn't have a Fortelling, just that it's kind of weird. Anyone
> have any thoughts on this?
Enh.
There are a _lot_ of things in tEotW that RJ really never follows up on
or changes in the next books. I'd say he really didn't have _everything_
mapped out. Observe:
1) Moiraine doing funky things with her staff.
2) The Creator directly addressing Rand.
3) Perrin's non-existant sisters.
ThumBoy666
In article <34CBAB...@webspan.net>, "Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net>
writes:
>2) The Creator directly addressing Rand.
So does everyone assume that it's the Creator? I'd lately been favoring the
idea that it was the Dark One.
Ziv Tzvieli
Richard M. Boye' wrote:
[snip foretelling details]
>
> Enh.
>
> There are a _lot_ of things in tEotW that RJ really never follows up on
> or changes in the next books. I'd say he really didn't have _everything_
> mapped out. Observe:
>
> 1) Moiraine doing funky things with her staff.
>
>
>
I don't know about tEotW, but I remember
in the beginning of tDR Perrin tells Min
that he has no sisters, but he loves her
like one.
Then in tSR, when Perrin is grieving for
his recently dead family, he specifically
mentions how one of his sisters(!!) would
have been of marriageable age.
So does Perrin indeed have sisters?
--
Ziv Tzvieli
The trouble with life is the lack of cool background music.
Remove YOUR PANTS to email me.
Dave Rothgery
John S. Novak wrote in message ...
>
>Now, working from relevant bits of what you say (snipping what I don't
>think is relevant, or what is already covered in the above timeline)
>we have this:
>
>>1) Elaida had her foretelling while she was an Accepted.
>>2) Elaida was an Accepted while Siuan and Moiraine were novices.
>
>the time during which Moiraine and Siuan were novices."
>
>I think it is reasonable to assume that Elaida was Accepted for a
>longer period of time than Moiraine was accepted, and that she was a
>Novice for a longer time than Moiraine was a Novice, simply because
>Moiraine's six-year total tenure is noted somewhere as being
>"meteoric."
The length of time someone spends as an accepted and as a novice seems
directly proportional to strength in the power. All the nearly
Sherriam-equivalents we know about spent 5 or six years as each; the average
among AS is ten years as each. Teslyn thinks Elaida was over-pampered when
she was a novice (the same thing Elaida thought of Moiraine, Siuan, and
later Egwene and Nynaeve). Elaida is well stronger in the power than anyone
known to have spent five years as an Accepted, and not the type to give the
AS enough trouble to hold her back for other reasons, so anything more than
four years is just silly.
>I have always had the impression as well, bolstered by the above, that
>Elaida was considerably (ie, at least five, more likely ten, possibly
>even fifteen) years older than Moiraine.
Why? Are there any signigicant differences in the behavior or appearance of
forty-two-year old women and fifty-seven year old women, given slowing, that
their differences in personality would not account for?
I got the idea that Elaida was the wunderkid of the AS for a few years, and
then Moiraine and Siuan showed up. And she was pissed off because they were
just as strong as she was.
>>3) Moiraine and Siuan were Accepted during the Aeil War, and were accepted
>>for three years. They were raised to the shawl shortly after the battle
of
>>the Shining Walls.
>
>Is it inference that makes you say they were Accepted during the Aiel
>War, or is there a direct quote?
There's a direct quote. I actually do have TGH here.
The Aiel war ended with the Battle of the Shining walls, correct?
Rand was born just after that battle, true?
And Moiraine, in TGH (The Dragon Reborn, p.128-129 of the Tor paperback),
tells Rand that she and Siuan were Accepted soon to be raised the shawl when
Gitara had her foretelling.
>>8) Queen Morrelin's death (two years after Tigraine's disappearance), set
>>off the Third War (maybe it was fourth; most of my books are at home and
the
>>exact number is somewhat hazy) for the Andoran Succession.
>
>Modrellein, I believe.
Oops.
>Further, in tDR it is said that the Succession took about a year.
I didn't remember that, but I still think it makes the most sense for the
timing of her Foretelling.
>It would seem to me that until Morgase took the throne, Tigraine would
>still have been the Hir. Or part of the royal line, or whatever.
>Certainly, Morgase and her progeny did not begin fitting that bill
>until 975.
I think running away caused a de facto removal of Tigraine and hers from the
line of succession. While there was some question of who the Heir was, it
certainly _wasn't_ Tigraine, who was generally believed dead.
>>Assumptions (which I think are somewhat reasonable):
>>1) To know Moiraine and Siuan beyond just in passing before they were AS,
>>I'd say Elaida had to have been an accepted for two years of this period.
>
>Please be more specific.
>Do you say that Elaida must have been an Accepted for at least two
>years of the six year period during which Moiraine was Novice and
>Accepted? I agree, but I think that's an underestimate.
Yup.
>>2) Elaida did not spend significantly more time as an Accepted than
Moiraine
>>and Siuan did -- no much more than three years.
>
>I question this.
>I do not think this is reasonable, and so I went digging for a quote.
>Check Moiraine's Glossary entry in LoC. Moiraine's six year tenure
>being described as meteoric makes me think in terms of someone
>finishing an undergrad and graduate degree in three years or so.
>
>If I had to guess a time span for Elaida being an Accepted alone, I'd
>probably pick something like five to eight years.
See above on this one.
>We seem to be reducing the intersection between Elaida being Accepted
>and Morgase sitting the throne of Andor to a matter of a few months at
>most, and to zero (which is more likely, IMO) at least.
It was zero, almost certainly. Accepted don't have time to attach
themselves to novices, and ingratiate themselves to such a degree that the
novice will later appoint her as an advisor.
>>With a minium two year overlap, and a three-year acceptance, it is
>>impossible for Elaida to have had her Foretelling before Tigraine's
>>disappearance.
>
>I have the following observations:
>Second, Modrellein's line _was_ the royal line for well past
>Tigraine's disappearance. Two years after her disappearance at the
>very least (until Modrellein's death) three years at the most (until
>the end of the Succession.)
But Tigraine wasn't. She'd run away, and was believed dead. End of story
as far as Andor goes.
>>There is, though, a two-year window between Tigraine's disappearance and
the
>>beginning of the Succession, IIRC.
>
>One year, I believe.
>
>>Which would mean even if all my
>>assumptions are correct (except the last one -- evidence of Elaida sharing
>>some time as Accepted with Moiraine and Siuan would make this easier to
>>prove), there are four possible years for Elaida to have had her
>>foretelling, and so there's a 50% chance that I'm right.
>
>I believe I have had the honor of demolishing your assumptions.
>I also have the privilege of pointing out that you need to think in
>terms of Morgase's ascendance, not Tigraine's disappearance.(*)
>
>>If Morellin were still alive, Elaida would have at least considered the
>>possibility of her Foretelling refering to Galad, no matter how much of a
>>man-hating Red she is. If it were made not long after Tigraine's
>>disappearance, she might have even entertained notions that Tigraine was
>>still alive.
>
>Devin has addressed at least part fo this already.
>Further, I don't think Elaida is being subtle about her Foretelling.
Neither do I.
I think she believes it applies to Elayne because it is the only logical
concluesion from her POV. And that she is intelligent enough to consider
other possiblities if they were very clear (and Galad is pretty clear).
I think, though, that RJ has not shared the exact wording with us, and that
what we have heard would strongly imply that Galad, at least, needed
watching if the timing was such that Tigraine's inheritence rights were not
in question when Elaida had her fortetelling.
>>Elaida's Foretelling having any connection to Rand at all would be a
>>Foretelling that provided no useful information. No one (except possibly
>>Gitara Moromoso) at the time knew that Rand was/would be Tigraine's son,
and
>>the fact is somewhat irrelevant.
>
>It might have been _quite_ useful, if Elaida followed it up correctly.
>Let's say she made her Foretelling publicly known.
Then there would have been AS in any house in Andor with anything close to a
claim to the Throne. With possible side effects elsewhere, few of which
would be good.
> Or that somehow,
>word of it reached Gitara Moroso. Gitara seems to have had a hand in
>first Luc's, and then Tigraine's disappearance.
>
>Now, we don't know if Gitara knew she was working toward the
>culmination of the Karaethon Cycle. Let us assume that she did not,
>for a moment, that she was working from equally cryptic Foretellings
>of her own. Still, hearing of Elaida's Foretelling, she might thusly
>think to herself, "Hey! Maybe this has something to do with that!"
>At which point she could have taken action herself, or shared it with
>Elaida and pointed Elaida to the Waste, three years or more before
>Rand's birth, eliminating the entire eighteen year period during which
>no one knew where Rand was.
And exactly what benefits would this have provided?
The only plus of finding Rand earlier than he actually was would have been
catching Nynaeve before she built up her block. But if Rand wasn't found in
the Two Rivers, that defeats the purpose. Besides, they would have been
working against the prophecy of Rhudien in that case.
Besides, I can't see anyone with any sense trusting a Red only a few years
in the Shawl to look for a man who channels and not to gentle him. May I
suggest that not even Grays are this dense.
Richard M. Boye'
Ziv Tzvieli wrote:
>
> Richard M. Boye' wrote:
> [snip foretelling details]
> >
> > Enh.
> >
> > There are a _lot_ of things in tEotW that RJ really never follows up on
> > or changes in the next books. I'd say he really didn't have _everything_
> > mapped out. Observe:
> >
> > 1) Moiraine doing funky things with her staff.
> >
> > 2) The Creator directly addressing Rand.
> >
> > 3) Perrin's non-existant sisters.
> >
> Are you saying Perrin has sisters or not?
In one of the earlier books, Perrin tells Min he has no sisters.
It's been corrected in later printings though.
RJ seems to have a major blind spot when it comes to sisters. Early on,
Mat had four sisters, yet in tSR, we hear only of Bodewhin & Eldrien. I
suppose the other two could have been married off, I s'pose.
And Egwene is the youngest of five daughters, yet even though the
Emmond's Field scenes in tSR were centered on the Winespring Inn and the
al'Veres, we heard not a word of the other al'Vere girls. Only now and
then do we get vague hints of their existence. Yet one would think that
since Egwene was such a wunderkind, Verin & Alanna would have taken
pains to seek them out.
> So does Perrin indeed have sisters?
He did. They're dead.
Dave Rothgery
John S. Novak wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:30:59 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>The length of time someone spends as an accepted and as a novice seems
>>directly proportional to strength in the power.
>
>It's a guide, but not a particularly good one, as far as I'm
>concerned.
John, you are being delibrately obtuse.
I may be wrong about my original point, but _every_ AS known to have been
Accepted for five or six years is nearly the same strength in the power.
Every AS who is known to have spent longer is weaker than that group.
_Every_ AS who is known to have spent less time as an Accepted is stronger
in the Power than the five-six years group. Elaida is definitely stronger
in the power than that group (Sherriam, Verin, Kiruna, ...) , and is not
likely to have done anything that would slow her advancement.
> No one has ever made any comment about the speed of
>Elaida's education, whereas Moiraine's is specifically noted as being
>meteoric.
So you don't think Joline's comments in aCoS qualify? (IIRC "Elaida had
been made over too much as Novice, for her strength and the remarkable speed
of her learning.")
>>>I have always had the impression as well, bolstered by the above, that
>>>Elaida was considerably (ie, at least five, more likely ten, possibly
>>>even fifteen) years older than Moiraine.
>
>>Why?
>
>Just the general attitude she has, that Siuan is a twerp, Siuan is a
>punk, Elaida should have been Amyrlin, etc.
>
>>I got the idea that Elaida was the wunderkid of the AS for a few years,
>
>Where?
>
Joline's comments, and that she was the strongest girl to show up in the
tower since Lelaine. The strongest girl among the Novices and Accepted
tends to be fawned on by most of the AS.
>>>Is it inference that makes you say they were Accepted during the Aiel
>>>War, or is there a direct quote?
>
>>There's a direct quote. I actually do have TGH here.
>
>Fair enough.
>It was more a matter of curiosity, really.
>
>>>Further, in tDR it is said that the Succession took about a year.
>>I didn't remember that, but I still think it makes the most sense for the
>>timing of her Foretelling.
>
>I don't, obviously.
>
>>>It would seem to me that until Morgase took the throne, Tigraine would
>>>still have been the Hir. Or part of the royal line, or whatever.
>>>Certainly, Morgase and her progeny did not begin fitting that bill
>>>until 975.
>
>>I think running away caused a de facto removal of Tigraine and hers from
the
>>line of succession. While there was some question of who the Heir was, it
>>certainly _wasn't_ Tigraine, who was generally believed dead.
>
>I don't think there's any evidence for this.
When a woman disappears for _months_, it's generally safe to assume that
she's dead. Tigraine had been gone for two _years_ when Modrellin died. If
Tigraine had showed up in Caemlyn to claim the throne, nobody would have
believed her, and rightly so. And even if some had accepted that she was,
in fact, Tigraine, many nobles would argue that a woman who had abandoned
Andor had no right to the throne.
>I further suggest that, depending on Modrellein's temperament, making
>statements of that sort to her face may have been unwise.
In this day and age, a great many parents have expended vast amounts of time
and money on futile searches for their missing children.
That didn't make their children any less dead.
>Regardless, it's an entirely unwarranted assumption. If they had no
>evidence she was dead, they were probably hoping Modrellein would have
>another daughter,
Given that Tigraine had already married and had a child of her own, I think
that Modrellin was probably at the age where that would be a risky
proposition, if not an impossible one.
> but I doubt Tigraine was formally removed from the
>succession, the royal house, or the royal line.
Formality is irrelevant.
You don't have to formally remove a dead woman from the royal line.
>>>>With a minium two year overlap, and a three-year acceptance, it is
>>>>impossible for Elaida to have had her Foretelling before Tigraine's
>>>>disappearance.
>
>>>Second, Modrellein's line _was_ the royal line for well past
>>>Tigraine's disappearance. Two years after her disappearance at the
>>>very least (until Modrellein's death) three years at the most (until
>>>the end of the Succession.)
>
>>But Tigraine wasn't. She'd run away, and was believed dead. End of story
>>as far as Andor goes.
>
>There's no evidence that Tigraine was formally removed from the
>succession. None at all. She was declared dead, yes, but had she
>been retrned, or found, or a child of hers found and verified, there
>is no reason to believe that she, or the child, would not have been
>considered of the royal house, or the royal line.
If she was formally declared dead, there's no reason to do so.
A corpse cannot continue the royal line.
Still, suppose you were Morgase, or another woman with a claim to the throne
almost as strong as Tigraine's. Tigraine disappears for two years.
Modrellin dies. If Tigraine had returned during the Succession, do you the
Trakands, or any of the other houses fighting for the throne would say
"Okay, you're Modrellin's daughter, we'll stop fighting and you can be
Queen."
More typical would be "You abandon Andor for years, without a word that
you're alive, and you want us to accept you on the throne? Are you out of
your mind?"
Actually we have no information at all on the legal status of bastards in
Andor. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they have none.
>Further, until the exact moment of Morgase's coronation, House Trakand
>was _not_ the royal house or the royal line. There was doubt. There
>was confusion. There was a dynastic struggle. Until the end, no one
>knew what was going on.
The one thing that was _certain_ was that house Mantear was not retaining
the Lion Throne. And that had been known since Tigraine had been gone a
month. Modrellin, possibly refusing to accept this, probably did not
formally name someone else her heir.
Besides, Elaida knew the outcome rather before then. It 'became clear' that
Trakand was going to triumph in such a manner that there was enough time for
Elaida to attach herself to Morgase before she was crowned, but after
Morgase was surely going to win.
>>>Further, I don't think Elaida is being subtle about her Foretelling.
>
>>I think she believes it applies to Elayne because it is the only logical
>>conclusion from her POV.
>
>Except that her point of view is wrong.
>She's asking the wrong questions, and getting the wrong answer.
The logical question is, if we know the correct wording (which I don't think
we do), is "Who constitutes the Royal/ruling line/house/whatever of Andor?".
I find it impossible to construct an argument that a bastard born when
someone else was on the throne is part of the Royal/ruling
line/house/whatever.
>As far as I'm concerned, you have proven even more conclusively that
>Elaida's Foretelling was about Rand, not Elayne.
<groan>
This is becoming almost as pointless as a Taim is/is not Demandred argument,
except that we agree there.
Elaida's foretelling didn't have anything to do with Rand.
Not only was the timing such that this interpretation would be questionable,
if not entirely off base, but Foretellings almost without fail introduce
useful, sometimes critical information not known to the general populace.
that the Dragon would be critical ot the Last Battle is generally known;
knowing that he is a child of a Mantear is irrelevant.
I suppose you find Richard Boye''s arguments concerning House Trakand's and
Morgase's heraldry (a keystone, and a set of golden keys) unconvincing as
well.
There's no possible way Elaida could have had her fortelling before Tigraine
disappeared. After that, it was clear that Mantear was not continuing the
Andoran royal line. Elaida correctly sought to keep an eye on the winner.
Alexlp
Ziv wrote
>in the beginning of tDR Perrin tells Min
>that he has no sisters, but he loves her
>like one.
> Then in tSR, when Perrin is grieving for
>his recently dead family, he specifically
>mentions how one of his sisters(!!) would
>have been of marriageable age.
>
>So does Perrin indeed have sisters?
>--
It is possible that Perrin had no sisters, in the tradtional sibling sense, but
in fact was part of a small group of
Jehovah's witnesses who lived in one home.
Hence, he has sisters, yet not.
Thailia
John S. Novak
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:30:59 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>The length of time someone spends as an accepted and as a novice seems
>directly proportional to strength in the power.
It's a guide, but not a particularly good one, as far as I'm
concerned. No one has ever made any comment about the speed of
Elaida's education, whereas Moiraine's is specifically noted as being
meteoric.
Until you can give me some textual evidence, I just don't buy the
three year theory for Elaida.
>>I have always had the impression as well, bolstered by the above, that
>>Elaida was considerably (ie, at least five, more likely ten, possibly
>>even fifteen) years older than Moiraine.
>Why?
Just the general attitude she has, that Siuan is a twerp, Siuan is a
punk, Elaida should have been Amyrlin, etc.
>I got the idea that Elaida was the wunderkid of the AS for a few years,
Where?
>>Is it inference that makes you say they were Accepted during the Aiel
>>War, or is there a direct quote?
>There's a direct quote. I actually do have TGH here.
Fair enough.
It was more a matter of curiosity, really.
>>Further, in tDR it is said that the Succession took about a year.
>I didn't remember that, but I still think it makes the most sense for the
>timing of her Foretelling.
I don't, obviously.
>>It would seem to me that until Morgase took the throne, Tigraine would
>>still have been the Hir. Or part of the royal line, or whatever.
>>Certainly, Morgase and her progeny did not begin fitting that bill
>>until 975.
>I think running away caused a de facto removal of Tigraine and hers from the
>line of succession. While there was some question of who the Heir was, it
>certainly _wasn't_ Tigraine, who was generally believed dead.
I don't think there's any evidence for this.
I further suggest that, depending on Modrellein's temperament, making
statements of that sort to her face may have been unwise.
Regardless, it's an entirely unwarranted assumption. If they had no
evidence she was dead, they were probably hoping Modrellein would have
another daughter, but I doubt Tigraine was formally removed from the
succession, the royal house, or the royal line.
Unless you have some evidence for it.
>>>With a minium two year overlap, and a three-year acceptance, it is
>>>impossible for Elaida to have had her Foretelling before Tigraine's
>>>disappearance.
>>I have the following observations:
>>Second, Modrellein's line _was_ the royal line for well past
>>Tigraine's disappearance. Two years after her disappearance at the
>>very least (until Modrellein's death) three years at the most (until
>>the end of the Succession.)
>But Tigraine wasn't. She'd run away, and was believed dead. End of story
>as far as Andor goes.
There's no evidence that Tigraine was formally removed from the
succession. None at all. She was declared dead, yes, but had she
been retrned, or found, or a child of hers found and verified, there
is no reason to believe that she, or the child, would not have been
considered of the royal house, or the royal line.
Further, until the exact moment of Morgase's coronation, House Trakand
was _not_ the royal house or the royal line. There was doubt. There
was confusion. There was a dynastic struggle. Until the end, no one
knew what was going on.
And I don't think Elaida's Foretelling was given when Morgase was on
the throne.
>>Devin has addressed at least part fo this already.
>>Further, I don't think Elaida is being subtle about her Foretelling.
>Neither do I.
>I think she believes it applies to Elayne because it is the only logical
>concluesion from her POV.
Except that her point of view is wrong.
She's asking the wrong questions, and getting the wrong answer.
As far as I'm concerned, you have proven even more conclusively that
Elaida's Foretelling was about Rand, not Elayne.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <slrn6clc9...@mariner.cris.com>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@mariner.cris.com> wrote:
> * Damn Brust.
> All week long, it's been:
> "Huh."
> "Excuse me, Bill, I believe you said, 'Huh.'"
> "Well, and if I did?"
> "Then I should be pleased to know the reason behind your exhalation."
> "I have the honor of attempting to test this circuit."
> "You perceive that this is of no help to me."
> "You are aware that it is a complex active circuit."
> "This I am."
> "You are likewise aware that, as such, this circuit contains op-amps."
> "You do me the honor of stating the obvious."
> "Yet the input terminals display a voltage difference."
> "Thank you, good sir, I now perceive the source of your
> consternation."
> Or maybe not.
May I assume you have had the recent joy of reading _The
Phoenix Guards_?
ObOldJoke: _The Wheel of Time_, by Paarfi of Roundwood.
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Devin L. Ganger
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on 26 Jan 1998 16:19:48 +0100,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
> ObOldJoke: _The Wheel of Time_, by Paarfi of Roundwood.
Do yo do me the honor, sir, of making a joke?
The esteemed Paarfi, as I am sure you are well aware, for you are both
a gentleman and a scholar, as is clearly apparent to any person so
fortunate as to behold your noble's point and clear countenance (as
well as your servicable and handsome attire, which is graced by your
sword, which I am sure is tolerably sharp), is a serious historian and
would not normally concern himself with the writing of such fictions
as you describe.
Richard M. Boye'
Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>
> <flashy-thing!> Remember only that on 26 Jan 1998 16:19:48 +0100,
> in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
>
> > ObOldJoke: _The Wheel of Time_, by Paarfi of Roundwood.
>
> Do yo do me the honor, sir, of making a joke?
>
> The esteemed Paarfi, as I am sure you are well aware, for you are both
> a gentleman and a scholar, as is clearly apparent to any person so
> fortunate as to behold your noble's point and clear countenance (as
> well as your servicable and handsome attire, which is graced by your
> sword, which I am sure is tolerably sharp), is a serious historian and
> would not normally concern himself with the writing of such fictions
> as you describe.
Wow, Devin, you do that pretty good!
BTW is there another Brust book due out set in the Pheonix Guards
period?
Is there another Brust book due out at all?
Richard M. Boye'
Dave Rothgery wrote:
(snip a helluva lot)
> I suppose you find Richard Boye''s arguments concerning House Trakand's and
> Morgase's heraldry (a keystone, and a set of golden keys) unconvincing as
> well.
John finds everything I say unconvincing.
HTH!
Richard M. Boye'
ThumBoy666 wrote:
>
> In article <34CBAB...@webspan.net>, "Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net>
> writes:
>
>
> idea that it was the Dark One.
>
We-ell...
THe only time we've seen the DO make pronouncements IN ALL CAPS were
times in which one of the Forsakies were actually present at the Bore.
I would think that since the DO is bound and all that, it would crimp
his ability to broadcast his voice throughout the world. Rand was in
Sheinar when it occured.
The Creator, OTOH.....
Dave Rothgery
Karl-Johan Noren wrote in message ...
>In <34CCDD...@webspan.net>,>The next Vlad Taltos book is going to be _Dragon_ but I
>can't find it on Tor's schedule page (only the _Freedom
>and Necessity_ pb is listed there, and it's out).
>
<whine>
All I've read is _Jhreg_ (bought as a Christmas present for my kid brother,
who I hooked on RJ, based on recommendations here). Liked it. Not sure
what comes next, and if I'll have to resort to amazon.com to get it...
I didn't have any luck at the nearest Waldenbooks or Media Play, though...
Devin L. Ganger
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:02:25 -0500,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
> Dave Rothgery wrote:
> > I suppose you find Richard Boye''s arguments concerning House Trakand's and
> > Morgase's heraldry (a keystone, and a set of golden keys) unconvincing as
> > well.
> John finds everything I say unconvincing.
Normally, your argument would give me pause, but it doesn't in this case
because of two factors:
1) I suspect that Jordan deliberately set this up, but as irony, rather
than a true foreshadowing. Look at all of the other foreshadowed elements
of the Trakkands' lives that came back to haunt them. They seem to be one
of his foremost Houses of Tragedy.
2) I feel that Elaida's role is cast as one who has all the right info, but
always puts the wrong analysis on it.
Richard M. Boye'
Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>
> <flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:00:36 -0500,
> in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
>
> > BTW is there another Brust book due out set in the Pheonix Guards
> > period?
>
> Dunno, but I doubt it, considering that the last one ended with the
> Interregnum...
How, interested?
> I am interested in more of Khaavren and crew, though...I was glad
> when we saw him in the Vlad series.
Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
> > Is there another Brust book due out at all?
>
> According to legend, yes. It Is Said that he is not done with the
> full Cycle yet...
Un-huh. I've noticed that there seems to be a dearth of good informative
_current_ Brust webpages out there.
As well as a total lack of fan art.
Hmmm...I sense a niche to be exploited....
Karl-Johan Noren
In <6aiq7o$mh7$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>,
"Dave Rothgery" <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren wrote in message ...
> >"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> >> Is there another Brust book due out at all?
> >The next Vlad Taltos book is going to be _Dragon_ but I
> >can't find it on Tor's schedule page (only the _Freedom
> >and Necessity_ pb is listed there, and it's out).
>
> <whine>
> All I've read is _Jhreg_ (bought as a Christmas present for my kid brother,
> who I hooked on RJ, based on recommendations here). Liked it. Not sure
> what comes next, and if I'll have to resort to amazon.com to get it...
Well, it's probably best to read the Vlad books in publication
order, which is:
_Jhereg_
_Yendi_
_Teckla_
_Taltos_
_Phoenix_
_Athyra_
_Orca_
There are several big course changes during the series,
which keeps it interesting.
Then you have the Khaavren Romances (Tolkien meets Alexandre
Dumas), set in the same world but earlier:
_The Phoenix Guards_
_Five Hundred Years After_
Both are jolly good reads.
He's written a lot more, but take a look at the Dragaera pages
or Brust's own home page for details:
http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/
http://www.wavefront.com/~skzb/
I can especially recommend _Agyar_.
> I didn't have any luck at the nearest Waldenbooks or Media Play, though...
Well, that's easy to understand since even my local SF
specialist has had trouble having them all in.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <34CCF7...@webspan.net>,
"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>
> > I am interested in more of Khaavren and crew, though...I was glad
> > when we saw him in the Vlad series.
>
> Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
He was alluded to in _Orca_ at least. Not sure if he appeared,
though.
Richard M. Boye'
Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> Karl-Johan Noren wrote in message ...
> >
> >The next Vlad Taltos book is going to be _Dragon_ but I
> >can't find it on Tor's schedule page (only the _Freedom
> >and Necessity_ pb is listed there, and it's out).
> <whine>
> All I've read is _Jhreg_ (bought as a Christmas present for my kid brother,
> who I hooked on RJ, based on recommendations here). Liked it. Not sure
> what comes next,
Well, I read them out of order and I managed just fine. The stories
themselves aren't terribly episodic (that is, they don't exist as
installments of when large plotline) and you can read them in whatever
order you chose.
It's complicated in that Brust doesn't write them in chronological
order. Here's a story here, next book is a story that happened before
book one etc..
Aaron Bergman
In article <34CCDD...@webspan.net>, wa...@webspan.net wrote:
:Wow, Devin, you do that pretty good!
:
:BTW is there another Brust book due out set in the Pheonix Guards
:period?
There's a trilogy, actually, I believe. Something like "The Viscount of
Adrelanka", but I'm sure that's not quite right.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://pantheon.yale.edu/~abergman/>
The smallest number not expressable in under ten words
Devin L. Ganger
I just love nigh-real-time discussions on Usenet...<smirk>
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:51:59 -0500,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
> Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
In the last Vlad book; Khavvren is one of the higher muckety-mucks at
court and endsup becoming entangled in the plot.
> Un-huh. I've noticed that there seems to be a dearth of good informative
> _current_ Brust webpages out there.
Yeah, but Brust himself is fairly responsive to email. Not that I
would abuse this, mind you, but when I emailed him a quick "thank you
for all your wonderful work," I got a response back within hours.
I was shocked.
> As well as a total lack of fan art.
> Hmmm...I sense a niche to be exploited....
You go, girl.
Emma Pease
>John S. Novak wrote in message ...
>>Regardless, it's an entirely unwarranted assumption. If they had no
>>evidence she was dead, they were probably hoping Modrellein would have
>>another daughter,
>Given that Tigraine had already married and had a child of her own, I think
>that Modrellin was probably at the age where that would be a risky
>proposition, if not an impossible one.
While Modrellein is alive she is still queen and the house is still
royal and might still inherit (for instance if Galad grows up,
marries, and has a daughter of his own, she could be heir). We know
that males can pass rights to the throne (otherwise the talk about how
many lines back to the first queen wouldn't make sense).
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ em...@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Dave Rothgery
Devin L. Ganger wrote in message ...
><flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:02:25 -0500,
>in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
>
>> Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
>> > I suppose you find Richard Boye''s arguments concerning House
>> > Trakand's and Morgase's heraldry (a keystone, and a set of
>> > golden keys) unconvincing as well.
>
>> John finds everything I say unconvincing.
>
>Normally, your argument would give me pause, but it doesn't in this case
>because of two factors:
>
>1) I suspect that Jordan deliberately set this up, but as irony, rather
>than a true foreshadowing. Look at all of the other foreshadowed elements
>of the Trakkands' lives that came back to haunt them. They seem to be one
>of his foremost Houses of Tragedy.
Then why isn't Morgase dead?
Or Gawyn?
Or Galad?
Now the Mantears -- they were really ones for Tragedy. First Luc, then
Tigraine, and finally Modrellin. Not a pretty picture at all.
>2) I feel that Elaida's role is cast as one who has all the right
>info, but always puts the wrong analysis on it.
>
She didn't get to where she was before Rand showed up in Caemlyn by always
putting the wrong analysis on things. Besides, she can't be wrong all the
time.
On a somewhat unrelated note, as Amyrlin, she seems to rarely have the right
information. i.e. The size of Egwene's army -- Alviarin reports it as 20K;
Egwene worries about paying 30K. It's possible that Alviarin is feeding
Elaida information she knows to be false, but that would be counter to her
goals in this case -- to increase the size of the Tower Guard.
swle...@bsu.edu
Richard M. Boye' wrote:
>
> And Egwene is the youngest of five daughters, yet even though the
> Emmond's Field scenes in tSR were centered on the Winespring Inn and the
> al'Veres, we heard not a word of the other al'Vere girls. Only now and
> then do we get vague hints of their existence. Yet one would think that
> since Egwene was such a wunderkind, Verin & Alanna would have taken
> pains to seek them out.
When Egwene left Two Rivers she was of marrying age. She was the
youngest and now is about 18. The other four sisters are probally
married. And they were sought but could not channel. Morgase can
barely channel a spark and her daughter is one of the strongest. If
Egwene's sisters had teh power born in them they would most likely be
dead. Moriane said that wilders have a slim chance of surviving.
Nyneave was one of the few who lived.
One of the portal stone scenes in tGH Egwene dies because she couldn't
harness her powers.
Steve
Richard M. Boye'
swle...@bsu.edu wrote:
>
> Richard M. Boye' wrote:
> >
> > And Egwene is the youngest of five daughters, yet even though the
> > Emmond's Field scenes in tSR were centered on the Winespring Inn and the
> > al'Veres, we heard not a word of the other al'Vere girls. Only now and
> > then do we get vague hints of their existence. Yet one would think that
> > since Egwene was such a wunderkind, Verin & Alanna would have taken
> > pains to seek them out.
>
> When Egwene left Two Rivers she was of marrying age. She was the
> youngest and now is about 18. The other four sisters are probally
> married.
Ya, except for one thing. Although it didn't really happen, in Nynaeve's
Accepted testing, Marin tells Nynaeve that she has four daughters still
living under her roof. Since that was constructed from Nynaeve's
knowledge and memory, that would imply that as of the time that Nynaeve
left Emmond's Field, the al'Vere girls were unmarried. (actually in
tEotW there is comment about the al'Vere's living rooms behind the inn,
where they run the inn with help from Egwen and her sisters)
About 24 months have past since them though, I think. So unless Master
al'Vere had to foot the bill for _four_ weddings in two years, I'd say
that their other daughters aren't hitched yet.
> And they were sought but could not channel.
Would they have been? If Egwene was about 17 or 18 at the time that
Verin and Alanna were in the 2R testing girls, her sisters (at least
three of them) would older than the cut-off point that Verin and Alanna
imposed. One of them thought "if they had raised the cut-off point a few
more years, they would have bought out twice as many potential novices
(60!)" The sisters al'Vere were probably not tested because if the
age-thing. Moiraine made a special consideration for Nynaeve because she
was phenomanally strong and she was already channeling. Egwene herself
was at the age where she would have be turned away if she had gone to
the Tower herself.
> Morgase can
> barely channel a spark and her daughter is one of the strongest. If
> Egwene's sisters had the power born in them they would most likely be
> dead. Moriane said that wilders have a slim chance of surviving.
> Nyneave was one of the few who lived.
Ah, but that only applies to 'inner sparkers.' It is they who will touch
the OP whether or not they want to, and have a one in four chance of
survival. It _doesn't_ apply to those girls (and women!) who can be
taught.
Michael Kozlowski
In article <slrn6cpsqk...@blacktower.premier1.net>,
Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net> wrote:
><flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:00:36 -0500,
>in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
>
>> period?
>
Take a look at the list of Brust's books inside of _Five Hundred Years
After_. From the looks of it, there are three more books forthcoming.
--
Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu
Recommended SF (Updated 1/18): http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html
Emma Pease
In <erru3ar...@wendy.dsv.su.se> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>In <34CCF7...@webspan.net>,
>"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>> Devin L. Ganger wrote:
>> > I am interested in more of Khaavren and crew, though...I was glad
>> > when we saw him in the Vlad series.
>>
>> Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
>He was alluded to in _Orca_ at least. Not sure if he appeared,
>though.
He makes an appearance in Phoenix as a Tiassa in charge of a group of
guards. We haven't seen any of the others though his wife's house is
sighted (again in Phoenix).
Richard M. Boye'
John S. Novak wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:27:48 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
> >>It's a guide, but not a particularly good one, as far as I'm
> >>concerned.
>
> >John, you are being delibrately obtuse.
>
> Dave, you are attempting to retrofit dubious facts and plentiful
> supposition into your particular theory. I'm not buying.
(Snip pretty much John and Dave getting pissed at each)
Here's the quote:
"the very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted,
- and had knowwn enough even then to keep to herself - was that the
Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the
Last Battle."
That's all.
Now, basically, I don't see why the two of you are wrangling overwhat
the royal line of Andor was at the time of her Foretelling. And I'm not
entirely sure it's particularly relevant.
Number one, we don't even have the exact wording of the Foretelling to
pick over ourselves. No, we only have Elaida's summary of it.
Secondly, couldn't it be possible that it means the royal line of Andor
at the _time of the Last Battle_?
There's nothing in that hasty summary that indicates that Elaida meant
the contemporaneous royal line, be it Mantear or Trakand. (Modrellein's
brood at that point in time, but who cares?)
Richard M. Boye'
John S. Novak wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:39:12 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> >John S. Novak wrote:
>
> >(Snip pretty much John and Dave getting pissed at each)
>
>
> >Now, basically, I don't see why the two of you are wrangling overwhat
> >the royal line of Andor was at the time of her Foretelling. And I'm not
> >entirely sure it's particularly relevant.
>
> Because he insists that the timing of it indicates that the
> Foretelling is talking about Elayne, when it should be pretty clear
> that Rand is the key to the Last Battle, not Elayne.
>
> No Dragon Reborn, no victory.
No one's arguing that Elayne is more important than Rand.
However, I think it's safe to say that Rand cannot win Tarmon Gaidon by
himself. He needs a vast support team of various factions and forces
that are only now starting to solidify.
The three Trakands are interestingly placed in prominant positions in
that support team. (or will be..Gawyn will probably end up as Egwene's
warder and save her ass from the chopping block she Dreamt of). They
could be crucial in holding together that coalition, hence the
'keystone' motiff. For example, Rand is constantly lammenting how he
needs Elayne _right_now_ in order to solidfy his control of two of the
more important nations in his coalition. If Elayne continues to dick
around, Andor could revolt around him, thus robbing him of an important
support base that he'll need to effectively fight TG. Or Cairhein could
slip away. Sure Rand could sick the Aiel on them and impose martial law,
but would that be a wise use of resources? Could that have long-term
repurcussions that will mess up the outcome of TG?
Can you really say that you know right now, that RJ won't have each of
them, in their own way, contribute something that will be key in
allowing Rand to face the DO? RJ hasn't bothered setting up all the
'secondary' characters for volumes only to have _everyone_ besides Rand
be superflous to the conclusion.
Just because Elaida has a miserable track record, it doesn't mean that
she's completely wrong all the time. Even a stopped clock is right twice
a day. Hell, she stumbled on Alviarin's secret.
Daniel Mc Kenzie
Kevin McBurnett wrote in message <8QTx.3$V31.1...@typhoon.texas.net>...
>If Galad's mommy ran off to the Aiel and became a Maiden of the Spear,
>there by being Rand's mommy too, why hasn't Jordan or anyone else made
>any reference to this? I even looked into the FAQ for answers.
>
>Kevin McBurnett
The big deal will come, IMHO, later in the series when Elaida's Foretelling
about the importance of the Andoran ruling family to the outcome of the Last
Battle is revisited
(i.e. Elayne, heir to the Lion Throne=Galad's half sister. Galad=Rand's half
brother. Therefore Rand is [however tenuously] a member of Andor's ruling
family).
Daniel Mc Kenzie
mcke...@thecore.com
Clever talk is absolutly worthless.
All you do in the process is loose yourself.
And to loose yourself is a sin.
- Herman Hesse
John S. Novak
Rothgery, are you just fucking incapable of trimming text to which
you are not directly replying? Or are you a moron? I've called you
on this many times before. Do I need to snip this, save it in a text
file, and attach it to the top of every message where I reply to
you?
Jesus Christ, man, fire up some goddam Windipshit editor and USE IT,
or something.
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:27:48 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>>It's a guide, but not a particularly good one, as far as I'm
>>concerned.
>John, you are being delibrately obtuse.
Dave, you are attempting to retrofit dubious facts and plentiful
supposition into your particular theory. I'm not buying.
>> No one has ever made any comment about the speed of
>>Elaida's education, whereas Moiraine's is specifically noted as being
>>meteoric.
>So you don't think Joline's comments in aCoS qualify? (IIRC "Elaida had
>been made over too much as Novice, for her strength and the remarkable speed
>of her learning.")
Okay, fine.
Note the difference between remarkable and meteoric.
>When a woman disappears for _months_, it's generally safe to assume that
>she's dead. Tigraine had been gone for two _years_ when Modrellin died. If
>Tigraine had showed up in Caemlyn to claim the throne, nobody would have
>believed her, and rightly so. And even if some had accepted that she was,
>in fact, Tigraine, many nobles would argue that a woman who had abandoned
>Andor had no right to the throne.
What, not even people who had known her well?
Not even her husband Damodred? The Hell they wouldn't beleive her.
Regardless, until Morgase actually sat the throne, there was royal
house in the sense you are trying suggest exited. If there were,
there would have been no Succession War.
>>Regardless, it's an entirely unwarranted assumption. If they had no
>>evidence she was dead, they were probably hoping Modrellein would have
>>another daughter,
>Given that Tigraine had already married and had a child of her own, I think
>that Modrellin was probably at the age where that would be a risky
>proposition, if not an impossible one.
Aes Sedai can do wondrous things...
They may have hoped the old biddy would hang on long enough for Galad
to sire a daughter. Regardless, until she sat the throne, Morgase was
_not_ of the royal house or the direct royal line.
>> but I doubt Tigraine was formally removed from the
>>succession, the royal house, or the royal line.
>Formality is irrelevant.
>You don't have to formally remove a dead woman from the royal line.
Maybe I'm not being subtle enough here.
Until the end of the Aiel War, which would be 978, TIGRAINE WASN'T
DEAD!
>If she was formally declared dead, there's no reason to do so.
>A corpse cannot continue the royal line.
One's children can.
>Still, suppose you were Morgase, or another woman with a claim to the throne
>almost as strong as Tigraine's. Tigraine disappears for two years.
>Modrellin dies. If Tigraine had returned during the Succession, do you the
>Trakands, or any of the other houses fighting for the throne would say
>"Okay, you're Modrellin's daughter, we'll stop fighting and you can be
>Queen."
>More typical would be "You abandon Andor for years, without a word that
>you're alive, and you want us to accept you on the throne? Are you out of
>your mind?"
After the Succession was decided, sure, your argument has credence.
Before the Succession was decided, your argument has some smaller
amount of credence. Especially as regard any offspring she may have
had.
You may wish to compare and contrast this to Elayne's current plight.
>>Further, until the exact moment of Morgase's coronation, House Trakand
>>was _not_ the royal house or the royal line. There was doubt. There
>>was confusion. There was a dynastic struggle. Until the end, no one
>>knew what was going on.
>The one thing that was _certain_ was that house Mantear was not retaining
>the Lion Throne.
And that, barring Modrellein and her ilk, there was no proper and
known successor.
><groan>
>This is becoming almost as pointless as a Taim is/is not Demandred argument,
>except that we agree there.
Speak for yourself.
>I suppose you find Richard Boye''s arguments concerning House Trakand's and
>Morgase's heraldry (a keystone, and a set of golden keys) unconvincing as
>well.
Interesting, but irrelevent.
Rand is a helluva lot more important than Elayne is, in the scheme of
things.
Egwene, for that matter, is a helluva lot more important than Elayne.
Egwene, after all, is the Amyrlin. She didn't get a Foretelling. Mat
and Perrin are undeniably more important than Elayne, because they are
ta'veren. They didn't get a Foretelling.
I'm hard pressed, in fact, to recall a Foretelling which does _not_
mention Rand.
>There's no possible way Elaida could have had her fortelling before Tigraine
>disappeared.
Not only bullshit but also irrelevent.
> After that, it was clear that Mantear was not continuing the
>Andoran royal line. Elaida correctly sought to keep an eye on the winner.
And who _was_ continuing the Royal Line was indeterminate.
John S. Novak
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:15:02 -0500, Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>>1) I suspect that Jordan deliberately set this up, but as irony, rather
>>than a true foreshadowing. Look at all of the other foreshadowed elements
>>of the Trakkands' lives that came back to haunt them. They seem to be one
>>of his foremost Houses of Tragedy.
>Then why isn't Morgase dead?
>Or Gawyn?
>Or Galad?
Because the best tragedies are those where the tragic figures live to
experience the despair caused by their actions and circumstances.
Morgase wouldn't be nearly as tragic if she were dead. Likewise Gawyn
and Galad. Though Galad isn't all that tragic _yet_.
John S. Novak
On 26 Jan 1998 16:19:48 +0100, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>May I assume you have had the recent joy of reading _The
>Phoenix Guards_?
You would be nearly correct, sir.
John S. Novak
On 26 Jan 1998 22:02:08 +0100, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>Well, it's probably best to read the Vlad books in publication
>order, which is:
Personally, I disagree.
I prefer them, thus far, in chronological order, thus beginning with
_Yendi_ and proceeding through _Jhereg_. I have the uncormfortble
feeling that _Taltos_ wants to fall in there somewhere as well, but I
haven't gotten around to it yet.
>I can especially recommend _Agyar_.
_Agyar_ is exceptional.
_To Reign in Hell_ is overrated.
_Gypsy is on my shelf, but hasn't been read yet. But it's with Megan
Lindholm so it must be good.
>> I didn't have any luck at the nearest Waldenbooks or Media Play, though...
>Well, that's easy to understand since even my local SF
>specialist has had trouble having them all in.
I never have any problems.
John S. Novak
On 26 Jan 98 21:39:14 GMT, Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net> wrote:
>I just love nigh-real-time discussions on Usenet...<smirk>
>> Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
>In the last Vlad book; Khavvren is one of the higher muckety-mucks at
>court and endsup becoming entangled in the plot.
He makes a direct appearance in either _Teckla_ or _Phoenix_, does he not?
During one of the confrontations in South Adrilanka?
>Yeah, but Brust himself is fairly responsive to email. Not that I
>would abuse this, mind you, but when I emailed him a quick "thank you
>for all your wonderful work," I got a response back within hours.
If dim, murky memories are correct, Brust was a member of the old
FidoNet SF channel. Years, and years, and years ago. I may be
confusing him with someone else, though.
John S. Novak
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:39:12 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>John S. Novak wrote:
>(Snip pretty much John and Dave getting pissed at each)
At least someone knows how to snip.
>Now, basically, I don't see why the two of you are wrangling overwhat
>the royal line of Andor was at the time of her Foretelling. And I'm not
>entirely sure it's particularly relevant.
Because he insists that the timing of it indicates that the
Foretelling is talking about Elayne, when it should be pretty clear
that Rand is the key to the Last Battle, not Elayne.
No Dragon Reborn, no victory.
But I buy neither his timing arguments nor his end result.
>There's nothing in that hasty summary that indicates that Elaida meant
>the contemporaneous royal line, be it Mantear or Trakand.
I think that's kinda reaching.
Don't you?
Devin L. Ganger
<flashy-thing!> Remember only that on 27 Jan 1998 00:28:24 GMT,
in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan John S. Novak wrote:
> Personally, I disagree.
> I prefer them, thus far, in chronological order, thus beginning with
> _Yendi_ and proceeding through _Jhereg_. I have the uncormfortble
> feeling that _Taltos_ wants to fall in there somewhere as well, but I
> haven't gotten around to it yet.
Um, John?
Do you need to replace a SIMM or something?
_Taltos_ is first chronologically (barring the prologue of _Jhereg_),
then _Jhereg_, then...damn.
I always mix 'em up after that, unless I have the books at hand.
Kate Nepveu
J...@voyager.cris.com (John S. Novak) wrote:
>On 26 Jan 1998 22:02:08 +0100, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>>Well, it's probably best to read the Vlad books in publication
>>order, which is:
>Personally, I disagree.
>I prefer them, thus far, in chronological order, thus beginning with
>_Yendi_ and proceeding through _Jhereg_. I have the uncormfortble
>feeling that _Taltos_ wants to fall in there somewhere as well, but I
>haven't gotten around to it yet.
_Taltos_ is chronologically first, and fourth in publication order.
I read them first in publication order, then went back and re-read
them all in chronological. 'Twas an exceptionally sedentary
weekend...
I think either works. IMO _Jhereg_ is a stronger book than _Taltos_
just considered on its own, and I'd recommend it to someone who wasn't
sure about the whole series, but starting with _Taltos_ does give a
very clear sense of the way Vlad's character evolves.
>>I can especially recommend _Agyar_.
>_Agyar_ is exceptional.
>_To Reign in Hell_ is overrated.
_Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill_ is... odd.
_Brokedown Palace_ is decent, but I haven't bothered to pick up a copy
of my own yet.
_The Sun, the Moon and the Stars_ is rather artist-specific.
My feelings about _Freedom and Necessity_ are a matter of record.
>_Gypsy is on my shelf, but hasn't been read yet. But it's with Megan
>Lindholm so it must be good.
It is good. It isn't as good as some of his other works, but I like
it. There's the added bonus of being able to comprehend the Boiled in
Lead CD afterwards, too...
--
Kate http://www.concentric.net/~knepveu/index.html
"This is a lovely party," said the Bursar to a chair, "I wish
I was here."
--Terry Pratchett, _Lords and Ladies_
Kate Nepveu
m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
>Take a look at the list of Brust's books inside of _Five Hundred Years
>After_. From the looks of it, there are three more books forthcoming.
I'm told that he's seven or eight chapters into _The Paths of the
Dead_, volume I of _The Viscount of Adrilanhka_. My guess is that
it'll be the book In Which Orb and Empress Return to the Empire. He
put it aside to work on _Dragon_--Barrit's Tomb, finally, though I
admit I hoped it would be the Cycle turning.
John S. Novak
On 27 Jan 98 02:57:14 GMT, Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net> wrote:
>> Personally, I disagree.
>> I prefer them, thus far, in chronological order, thus beginning with
>> _Yendi_ and proceeding through _Jhereg_. I have the uncormfortble
>> feeling that _Taltos_ wants to fall in there somewhere as well, but I
>> haven't gotten around to it yet.
>Um, John?
>Do you need to replace a SIMM or something?
>_Taltos_ is first chronologically (barring the prologue of _Jhereg_),
>then _Jhereg_, then...damn.
Gee, Devin, if I haven't _read_ it yet, that's a pretty good
indication that I don't _know_ where it falls in the timeline.
Because I've never been able to get a straight fucking answer from
people how the timeline goes.
With that piece of information, then, it would be _Taltos_, _Yendi_,
_Jhereg_, _Teckla_, _Phoenix_. I HOPE _Athyra_ and _Orca_ follow,
because if they don't, I'm going to be pissed off.
'Course, since you forgot _Yendi_, I'm not exactly taking your
placement of _Taltos_ as a given, either. Does it have Cawti in it?
I wish I knew why it was so damned difficult for people to tell me
what the true chronological order is. Maybe I should put it up in a
webpage somewhere.
Steve Moss
Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in article
<34CCF7...@webspan.net>...
> Devin L. Ganger wrote:
> > <flashy-thing!> Remember only that on Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:00:36
-0500,
> > in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Richard M. Boye' wrote:
(snip)
> > I am interested in more of Khaavren and crew, though...I was
glad
> > when we saw him in the Vlad series.
> Refresh my memory (faulty as it these days). Where was that?
As my books are back in Phoenix, I can't give you the exact title
but I can verify the accuracy of Mr. Ganger's statement. Khaavern
takes charge of riot control in one of the Vlad books. The riots
were started by Cawti and/or her political action committee.
Khaavern has a hostile reaction to Vlad. Along the lines of "upsart
Easterner and slimy Jhereg" variety.
> > > Is there another Brust book due out at all?
> > According to legend, yes. It Is Said that he is not done with
the
> > full Cycle yet...
Two are listed. I believe that one will be called the "Viscount of
Adrilankha" (Khaavern) and the other "Dragon" (Vlad). I've been
waiting for both quite awhile. No release date as of yet that I'm
aware off.
--
Steven Moss
"Happiness is being at the top of the food chain." G.Harrison
email ste...@ctaz.com
homepage http://www.ctaz.com/~stevem/
Greg Robinson
In article <34c91b12...@news.vt.edu>,
cby...@REMOVE-TO-REPLY.vt.edu (Chris Byler) wrote:
>>Besides, Rand knows full well who his half-brother is.
>
>Don't you mean "Rand has all the information available to him to
>deduce who his half-brother is"?
>It doesn't necessarily mean he's figured it out yet. It might just
>not have occurred to him to make the connection; and after all, he
>does have a few other things on his mind.
In LOC, Tellings of the Wheel (pb 384-385) Rand is talking to Dyelin
because she was looking at him funny.
"She hesitated, then sighed. 'I do not suppose it matters. Someday you
must tell me how you had Aiel parents yet were raised in Andor. 25 years
ago, teh Daughter-Heir of Andor vanished in the night. Her name was
Tigraine. She left behind a husband, Taringal, and a son, Galad. I know it
is only chance, yet I see Tigraine in your face. It was a shock'
Rand felt a shock of his own. He felt cold. Fragments of the tale the
Wise Ones had told him spun through his head.... a golden-haired young
wetlander, in silks... son she loved; a husband she did not...Shaiel was
the name she took. She never gave another...You have something of her in
your features."
Dyelin goes on to mention Gitara Sedai caused Tigraine to run away. Rand
knows from the Wise Ones that Gitara told Shaiel that she had to go to the
waste and become a maiden.
Rand knows who is mother is and knows Galad is his half brother.
-Greg
"Never trust a ferret to do a weasels job"
Louie the Iguana
Email robi...@IDX.COM to reply
John Dilick
Yea, verily, on Tue, 27 Jan 1998 03:55:55 GMT, kne...@concentric.net (Kate
Nepveu) proclaimed:
>_Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill_ is... odd.
This is probably the best description of this book I've seen yet. I
enjoyed it, but kept wanting to turn back to the title page to make _sure_
it was Brust. Odd, indeed.
And yeah, to just go ahead and agree with everyone else, _Agyar_ was
wonderful.
--
John Dilick
dili...@cris.com
Viren R. Shah
[Had to chop the "References" line, since nn won't allow me to post with
that long of a line]
In <slrn6cqnm...@voyager.cris.com> J...@voyager.cris.com (John S. Novak) writes:
>I wish I knew why it was so damned difficult for people to tell me
>what the true chronological order is. Maybe I should put it up in a
>webpage somewhere.
http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/
The chronological order is:
1. Taltos
2. Yendi
3. Jhereg
4. Teckla
5. Phoenix
6. Athyra
7. Orca
>John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
Viren
--
Viren R. Shah {viren @ rstcorp . com}
Names : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7)
Density(g/mL): 5.8 4.92 21 1.251
Average Density: 8.24275 g/mL1395 [10:13am]
Kurt Montandon
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:01:11 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
<wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>John S. Novak wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:39:12 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>> >Now, basically, I don't see why the two of you are wrangling overwhat
>> >the royal line of Andor was at the time of her Foretelling. And I'm not
>> >entirely sure it's particularly relevant.
>>
>> Because he insists that the timing of it indicates that the
>> Foretelling is talking about Elayne, when it should be pretty clear
>> that Rand is the key to the Last Battle, not Elayne.
>>
>> No Dragon Reborn, no victory.
>
I think that Elaida predicting that the Royal Line is vital is just
one more way of RJ having her screw up. She takes the obvious line,
when, as usual, it is something different than what she would assume
as a literal interpretation of her Foretelling. She latches on to
House Trakand, therefore, it is more likely that House Mantear (or
whatever) will turn out to be the target of her Foretelling. She's
been consistently set up as misinterpreting her Foretellings - it's
part of her character.
>Just because Elaida has a miserable track record, it doesn't mean that
>she's completely wrong all the time. Even a stopped clock is right twice
>a day. Hell, she stumbled on Alviarin's secret.
But she doesn't know it yet. I doubt that Elaida seriously thinks
that Alviarin is BA, she's just setting the hounds loose in the hopes
that it will take Alviarin down in the process. She'll get the BA by
accident, not by intent, though to others it will appear as though by
intent.
Kurt Montandon
--
People who think that money is the root of all evil should give
all their money to me - just so they don't have to feel guilty
about it.
Christian R. Conrad
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:09:15 -0500,
"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> said:
[S N I P all content for dramatic effect (TM M.I. IIRC)]
> The Creator, OTOH.....
What, the Creator's name is Otto ?!?
Where do you get that from? And why the weird spellling?
Christian R. Conrad
--
Proud and sole owner of all opinions (except quotes) expressed above!
======================================================================
And personally, I will _never_ ask you to eat shit for me. I'm
perfectly capable of eating my own shit, thankyouverymuch. [Mark Loy]
Michael Kozlowski
In article <34e84e31...@news.concentric.net>,
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
>
>>Take a look at the list of Brust's books inside of _Five Hundred Years
>>After_. From the looks of it, there are three more books forthcoming.
It turns out this isn't correct. _Five Hundred Years After_ shows the
Khaavren books as a trilogy, with the last book being _The Viscount of
Adrilankha_. However, I _know_ that I saw somewhere that the last book
was being expanded into a trilogy, but I can't seem to figure out where
that was.
>I'm told that he's seven or eight chapters into _The Paths of the
>Dead_, volume I of _The Viscount of Adrilanhka_.
This, fortunately, seems to show that I'm not just imagining things. Can
you tell me where you found the "updated" information about the series?
Emma Pease
In <slrn6cqao...@voyager.cris.com> J...@voyager.cris.com (John S. Novak) writes:
>On 26 Jan 98 21:39:14 GMT, Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net> wrote:
>>Yeah, but Brust himself is fairly responsive to email. Not that I
>>would abuse this, mind you, but when I emailed him a quick "thank you
>>for all your wonderful work," I got a response back within hours.
>If dim, murky memories are correct, Brust was a member of the old
>FidoNet SF channel. Years, and years, and years ago. I may be
>confusing him with someone else, though.
He definitely hung out on net.sf-lovers back in 1983/84.
John S. Novak
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:01:11 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>However, I think it's safe to say that Rand cannot win Tarmon Gaidon by
>himself. He needs a vast support team of various factions and forces
>that are only now starting to solidify.
This is true.
But no one except Rand has ever had a Foretelling devoted to them,
that I recall. The only time other people are _ever_ mentioned, it is
in conjunction with Rand, with Rand as the centerpiece-- which is to
say, Nicola's Foretelling.
It's also just part and parcel of the whole Elaida mystique-- being
wrong, at every turn. The irony of having Elaida actually _meet_ Rand
significantly prior to his declaration as Dragon, having her give a
Foretelling right bloody there on the spot, and still not realize that
Rand, who looks noticeably like Tigraine, is the object of her
Foretelling, is perfect.
>Can you really say that you know right now, that RJ won't have each of
>them, in their own way, contribute something that will be key in
>allowing Rand to face the DO?
That's not the point.
The point is, who the Foretelling refers to.
>Just because Elaida has a miserable track record, it doesn't mean that
>she's completely wrong all the time. Even a stopped clock is right twice
>a day. Hell, she stumbled on Alviarin's secret.
<Snort>
A case of two wrongs making a right... I don't think Elaida really
believes Alviarin is Black Ajah. She just wants a witch hunt
mentality to further her own power. Not unlike McCarthy.
Kate Nepveu
m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
>In article <slrn6clc9...@mariner.cris.com>,
>John S. Novak <J...@mariner.cris.com> wrote:
>>"Huh."
>>"Excuse me, Bill, I believe you said, 'Huh.'"
>>"Well, and if I did?"
>>"Then I should be pleased to know the reason behind your exhalation."
[...]
>(As for myself, I had considerable difficulties writing e-mails after
>reading _Freedom and Necessity_. I sounded like someone doing a bad Jane
>Austen impersonation...)
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who this happens to. Toss
together _Sorcery and Ceceilia_ (which one can think of as _F&N_
without the Hegel), a re-read of the letters in _Possession_, and
selected pieces of The Fionavar Tapestry, stir, and get distinctly
non-modern speech patterns a few weeks ago...
Kate Nepveu
m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
>In article <34e84e31...@news.concentric.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>I'm told that he's seven or eight chapters into _The Paths of the
>>Dead_, volume I of _The Viscount of Adrilanhka_.
>This, fortunately, seems to show that I'm not just imagining things. Can
>you tell me where you found the "updated" information about the series?
An interview someone did with Brust just after _F&N_ came out. I can
email it to you if you like, but the interviewer requested that it not
go on Usenet.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <34dc7fd0...@news.concentric.net>,
the Kate of my heart <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
> m...@vega23.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
> >This, fortunately, seems to show that I'm not just imagining things. Can
> >you tell me where you found the "updated" information about the series?
>
> An interview someone did with Brust just after _F&N_ came out. I can
> email it to you if you like, but the interviewer requested that it not
> go on Usenet.
But weirdly enough, said person emailed me after I had
written a Brust post in rasfw and asked if I wanted a copy
of it... :-/
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Richard M. Boye'
John S. Novak wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:01:11 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> It's also just part and parcel of the whole Elaida mystique-- being
> wrong, at every turn. The irony of having Elaida actually _meet_ Rand
> significantly prior to his declaration as Dragon, having her give a
> Foretelling right bloody there on the spot, and still not realize that
> Rand, who looks noticeably like Tigraine, is the object of her
> Foretelling, is perfect.
Good point.
(She did want to throw him in a cell, ostensibly to safeguard Elayane &
brothers while they were on route to Tar valon, presumably so she could
grill him more, but Morgase forbade it. She later ruminates about how
she went after rand anyway but Moiraine had spirited him away. I think
she had figured out he was the Dragon Reborn right after she learned
Siuan went all the way to Fal Dara to see him.)
But, would Elaida really have any reason to connect Rand to Tigraine at
that point? She views him as an Aielman, and it's a huge cognitive leap
to connect the Daughter-Heir Tigraine to the Aiel. Would she look at him
and assume that Tigraine had more children? Or perhaps she would dismiss
the possibility of the mother of the Dragon Reborn being Tigraine, since
one assumes, as an Aes Sedai, she would have studied the Prophecies, and
have known that the mother of the DR was a 'maiden.' Tigraine as a
married woman and mother wasn't a maiden, it it's hardly the next
logical step to think that the royal princess ran off to the Waste to
join the Aiel 'Maidens.'
Richard M. Boye'
John S. Novak wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:04:39 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> >John S. Novak wrote:
>
> >(She did want to throw him in a cell, ostensibly to safeguard Elayane &
> >brothers while they were on route to Tar valon, presumably so she could
> >grill him more, but Morgase forbade it. She later ruminates about how
> >she went after rand anyway but Moiraine had spirited him away. I think
> >she had figured out he was the Dragon Reborn right after she learned
> >Siuan went all the way to Fal Dara to see him.)
>
> have leapt on the opportunity to use it for mischief, blackmail, and
> all sorts of unsavory hijinx.
When Moiraine spoke with Siuan in Fal Dara, Siuan told her that Elaida
had sent a scathing report of Moi's conduct with regards to Rand. She
knew something was up with him.
It was shortly after that Elayne disappeared from the Tower, and Morgase
just so happened to stop by for a visit and left Elaida there. Since her
purpose in life (Elayne) was gone, she decided to devote her life to
toppling Siuan, armed with her suspicions about Moiriane, Siuan and
Rand. It didn't take long for that to happen.
John S. Novak
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:04:39 -0500, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>John S. Novak wrote:
>(She did want to throw him in a cell, ostensibly to safeguard Elayane &
>brothers while they were on route to Tar valon, presumably so she could
>grill him more, but Morgase forbade it. She later ruminates about how
>she went after rand anyway but Moiraine had spirited him away. I think
>she had figured out he was the Dragon Reborn right after she learned
>Siuan went all the way to Fal Dara to see him.)
I honestly don't think she nkew until later, mainly because she would
have leapt on the opportunity to use it for mischief, blackmail, and
all sorts of unsavory hijinx.
>But, would Elaida really have any reason to connect Rand to Tigraine at
>that point?
Maybe not, but it's still one of life's crushing little ironies for
Elaida.
Just like the fact that her first instinct, not knowing who he was,
was to throw him in a cell and let him rot... and her next instinct,
_knowing_ who he is, was to throw him in a cell and let him rot.
If nothing else, she is consistent.
Kate Nepveu
dili...@cris.com (John Dilick) wrote:
>Yea, verily, on Tue, 27 Jan 1998 03:55:55 GMT, kne...@concentric.net (Kate
>Nepveu) proclaimed:
>>_Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill_ is... odd.
>This is probably the best description of this book I've seen yet. I
>enjoyed it, but kept wanting to turn back to the title page to make _sure_
>it was Brust. Odd, indeed.
I don't think I liked it, myself, but perhaps it was that
confounding-expectations thing that was getting in my way. At some
point, I'll have to pick up a copy and try it again (I think it's
still in print, anyway...).
--
Kate http://www.concentric.net/~knepveu/index.html
"On Imperial worlds, solipsism is punishable by death."
"But how do you convince a solipsist that he in fact *has* been
executed?"
--John M. Ford, "Waiting for the Morning Bird"
John Dilick
Yea, verily, on Thu, 29 Jan 1998 03:01:24 GMT, kne...@concentric.net (Kate
Nepveu) proclaimed:
>dili...@cris.com (John Dilick) wrote:
>>Yea, verily, on Tue, 27 Jan 1998 03:55:55 GMT, kne...@concentric.net (Kate
>>Nepveu) proclaimed:
>
>>>_Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill_ is... odd.
>
>>This is probably the best description of this book I've seen yet. I
>>enjoyed it, but kept wanting to turn back to the title page to make _sure_
>>it was Brust. Odd, indeed.
>
>I don't think I liked it, myself, but perhaps it was that
>confounding-expectations thing that was getting in my way. At some
>point, I'll have to pick up a copy and try it again (I think it's
>still in print, anyway...).
It is still in print. I don't think it is anywhere near as good as _Agyar_
or the Khaavren Romances, but it is entertaining for an evening's read.
On another Brust-related note, what was your opinion of _Gypsy_?
--
John Dilick dili...@cris.com
"In the defense industry, humour involves explosives."
- John S. Novak III in rasfwr-j