So the end has come, delurk and finally leaving.

[icarp...@aol.com]

I just finished A Memory of Light. It's sort of hard to know what to say. From book 1 to book 6 it was one of my favorite series. I recall re-reading each book in preparation for the next new release...and then it spiraled into galling mediocrity. I was actually pretty fed up the Robert Jordan by the time he died and the series passed to Brian Sanderson. Before the cherished hardcovers had a special place on my shelf and were constantly re-read...and then it so happened that I gave them all to the local library and only read each book once, still following along in spite of myself. The final book had some good scenes, resolved numerous plot threads and had a good ending, but, like all of the recent others it was mostly just...dull. No spark was left after 20+ years. Farewell, finally, Wheel of Time. We won't be crossing paths again.

Matt

[Marcus Melkersson]

SPOILER SPACE












Many things wither with time... both usenet technology and stories longer than a few books. RJ managed to keep an astonishing quality up for 6 books. Then we had politics, sniffing and meddling for 4 books. The big choedan kal event... a brief time of pure joy and then just the darkness when he left us. I know I was devastated. Actually the SF/F book store where I bought the 6 or so first of the books foretold that RJ would die before finishing the books. I remember feeling the dread... which came true about 15 years later. The bad joke which turned out not to be a joke.

And all the good times visiting this group in the ninetees, reading & sharing what other thought about the books actually made them so much better. The book releases were such times to look forward to. Good times...memories of light just now. They will not soon be forgotten!

Then Brandon saved the day. Or the years to come even. He did a great job I think. Not perfect, but RJ somehow was getting lost in his own story. Or that's what I felt anyway. Too many plots and too lengthy descriptions.

I thoroughly enjoyed all three of Brandon's books. However I understand your feelings. I felt them too. Just not to the extent I think you did. Brandon writing style is a bit hasty. Which may to some extent be due to his promise to close the story without dragging things out even one uneccessary step.
AMOL left me both hollow and satisfied. Satisfied that it was finally over. Hollow that it's over and there is nothing more.
I enjoyed the ending, and think it was fitting. I was however missing a few pieces that I would have guessed RJ would have put in. Something small from an age to come (the way the books started), and a longer prophecy than what was given. And maybe something from the 3 girls perspective at the very end.
Disatisfied thoughts about Tarmon Gaidon
1. I like battles but even I thought it a bit too long, and surprisingly hastily described. The interesting events should have been spent more time on, and the back and forth manouvers should have been more brief.
2. The 2 foolish I am a hero Demandred duels prequeling the one with Lan (also a bit foolish). The final one made me feel something though.
3. The description of the OP beeing woven felt empty. Nothing new, not exciting.

Highlíghts
1. Rand's meeting with Mat and Fortuona
2. Egwene's death - saviour scene
3. Lans fight with Demandred
4. Perrins fighting plots
5. Rands fight with the DO - I "always" thought he wound reimprison the DO again (not kill him), either by removing the patch, mending the pattern and undoing the hole to the DO or by trapping him into callandor. I like the "tests" that the DO and Rand gives each other - we should have seen something like that coming up given RJ:s fancy recycling the bible.
6. The forsaken finally beeing real badasses
7. That people we like/love actually started dying
8. The dragon holes
9. The "miracle" of lava
10. Lan's initial scene
11. Lan facing 2 Myrrdraal
12. Moghediens fate
13. The peace treaty scene
14. The Sharans arrival
15. The surfacing of the Aiel's who's supposedly spit in the eye's of the sightblinder (I always wondered then they would turn up)
16. Olver blowing the horn - even though that eventually became pretty obvious
17. Birgittes death, Elayne's near death and Birgittes rescue

More unfulfilling thought's / questions
1. The numbers, where did all the Randland channelers disappear. The numbers do not add up!
2. The immense numbers of trollocs, how where they fed and breeded?
3. The lack of "new" shadowspawn, I always imagined the worms in the blight to be "morphed"
4. The lack of description of where Demandred's new sa'angreal (Sarkanen?) came from.
5. How Rand came to "resurrect" - I alway's imagined that Nynaeve somehow would do it. Snatching his soul 3 days gone - biblic reference again - ever since the foreshadowing: "She wouldn't be satisfied until she healed someone 3 days dead". Somehow I thought it fitting that he ended up in Moridin's body - given the strange interconnection the always had. However I had imagined that he would end up on a boat funeral pyre a'la Arthur Pendraegon.
6. The long wait of the Seanchan to rejoin the battle. That seemed too late.
7. Where were all the Seanchan grolms, torms, lopars in the beginning of the fight? They just joined the final assault. Why?
8. Why didn't the shadow strike the supply chain of the Light and their healing centre.
9. Why didn't the light try any traps of their own? Like the one Taim set for Rand?
10. Why didn't the light hit the dark's supply chain?
11. What happened with the all the steel failing initial theme? - My thoughts were - shit the dragons are screwed.
12. I would have expected at least one more gholam attack on the forces of the light's channelers
13. Logain's internal fight - it was a good idea/theme but poorly written

Bah... ending with critique... that is totally unfair. It was a good book, actually one of the better! And I am forever thankful that you finished the series Brandon!
Anyhow... thanks to all the fans here for sharing during all the years. It's been a lovely acquaintance!

Cheers and goodbye
Marcus

[zu...@optonline.net]

"Marcus Melkersson" wrote in message
news:95271c23-0450-4fec...@googlegroups.com...

Highl�ghts

14. Tuon's meeting with Hawkwing and that conversation effecting the Aiel
prophesy

[Rast]

icarp...@aol.com wrote on Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:54:35 -0800 (PST):
> The final book had some good scenes, resolved numerous plot threads and had a good ending,
> but, like all of the recent others it was mostly just...dull. No spark
> was left after 20+ years. Farewell, finally, Wheel of Time. We won't be
> crossing paths again.

Shame.

The early books are still readable, but knowing how the rest of the
series turns out (quality, not spoilers) makes them a lot less appealing.



--
There walked into the lethal quicksands a very old man in tattered
purple, crowned with withered vine-leaves and gazing ahead as if upon the
golden domes of a fair city where dreams are understood. That night
something of youth and beauty died in the elder world. - H P Lovecraft

[Scott Wood]

On 2013-01-19, Marcus Melkersson <marcus.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SPOILER SPACE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[snip]

> I thoroughly enjoyed all three of Brandon's books. However I understand
> your feelings. I felt them too. Just not to the extent I think you
> did. Brandon writing style is a bit hasty. Which may to some extent
> be due to his promise to close the story without dragging things out
> even one uneccessary step.

I think it's only hasty by comparison to what come before. It was a
needed change.

> I enjoyed the ending, and think it was fitting. I was however missing a
> few pieces that I would have guessed RJ would have put in. Something
> small from an age to come (the way the books started), and a longer
> prophecy than what was given. And maybe something from the 3 girls
> perspective at the very end.

Yeah, you'd think a series that has 70-ish page prologues would end with
more than a handful of pages of epilogue.

> Highlíghts
> 1. Rand's meeting with Mat and Fortuona

Not to mention Egwene's meeting with Fortuona...

> 2. Egwene's death - saviour scene
> 3. Lans fight with Demandred
> 4. Perrins fighting plots

> 5. Rands fight with the DO - I "always" thought he wound reimprison the
> DO again (not kill him), either by removing the patch, mending the
> pattern and undoing the hole to the DO or by trapping him into
> callandor. I like the "tests" that the DO and Rand gives each other -
> we should have seen something like that coming up given RJ:s fancy
> recycling the bible.

I was hoping Rand would follow up the "world without evil" with "OK, I
can't get rid of naturally occuring evil, but here's a world that simply
lacks *you* as an active entity with a prison that can be breached." A
Memory of Shadow. :-)

> 8. The dragon holes
> 9. The "miracle" of lava

Yeah, I was happy to see gateways finally used tactically. The "moving
gateway passing through shadowspawn" one was cute too.

> 13. The peace treaty scene

Any bets on how long that'll last? The ink wasn't even dry before
Fortuona pondered breaking it. The Sharans weren't a party to it, and
whatever's left of them may be a bit upset. Saldaea could be in for a
messy succession. There's no mechanism for amending the terms.

The naivete does fit in well with Rand's "world without evil" fantasy, as
well as the world Lews Therin grew up in (and I'm sure it took more than
a treaty, adopted under pressure, to accomplish that peace).

> 16. Olver blowing the horn - even though that eventually became pretty
> obvious

It raises the question, though, of just what things get undone by
balefire. If death breaks the link with the horn, and balefire makes the
death have never happened and the person is still alive, why wouldn't the
link to the horn come back?

> More unfulfilling thought's / questions
> 1. The numbers, where did all the Randland channelers disappear. The
> numbers do not add up!

Did they give numbers on all the battle fronts? A whole bunch died in
the Sharan surprise attack, and a fair number were not on the side of
the Light (especially after the Turning campaign). Some had supporting
roles to play elsewhere.

> 2. The immense numbers of trollocs, how where they fed and breeded?

Breast-fed by Myrddraal? :-)

> 4. The lack of description of where Demandred's new sa'angreal
> (Sarkanen?) came from.

Somewhere in Shara? Age of Legends time capsule? Darkfriend shopping
network?

> 5. How Rand came to "resurrect" - I alway's imagined that Nynaeve
> somehow would do it. Snatching his soul 3 days gone - biblic reference
> again - ever since the foreshadowing: "She wouldn't be satisfied until
> she healed someone 3 days dead". Somehow I thought it fitting that he
> ended up in Moridin's body - given the strange interconnection the
> always had. However I had imagined that he would end up on a boat
> funeral pyre a'la Arthur Pendraegon.

I thought it was a fitting response to Rand's moping about his death
being inevitable...

As for Rand's new status as non-channeler, I wonder if burning out can be
Healed similar to severing? Assuming he ever wants to come out of
retirement, that is.

> 6. The long wait of the Seanchan to rejoin the battle. That seemed too
> late.

They needed the spy gone before they could be involved in the battle
planning again, but yeah, after a certain point doing nothing becomes
worse than doing something useful that the enemy expects.

> 9. Why didn't the light try any traps of their own? Like the one Taim
> set for Rand?

There were a few, such as "lure the Trollocs into the forest" outside
Caemlyn.

> 10. Why didn't the light hit the dark's supply chain?

They did burn cities and fields, and reclaim fallen bodies, to deny food
to the Trollocs (and noted that the Trollocs weren't as reliant on supply
lines due to their dietary habits). They may not have known about the
supplies coming from Blightville. The shadow was pretty good at
infiltrating the forces of good -- not so much the other way around
(Verin notwithstanding).

> 11. What happened with the all the steel failing initial theme? - My
> thoughts were - shit the dragons are screwed.

It was a local bubble of evil.

-Scott

[Scott Lurndal]

Scott Wood <sc...@buserror.net> writes:

>
>As for Rand's new status as non-channeler, I wonder if burning out can be
>Healed similar to severing? Assuming he ever wants to come out of
>retirement, that is.

I wondered the same thing, and I always suspected that Satelle was to
be the exemplar for that. I was disappointed that Nynaeve never never
encountered Satelle at all.

OTOH, Rand does have some powers (e.g. how he lit his pipe) yet.

scott

[Chucky @ Work]

Too many years of expectation. Those middle books should never have
happened.


- C@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:31:03 -0800 (PST), Marcus Melkersson
<marcus.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

>SPOILER SPACE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Many things wither with time... both usenet technology and stories longer than a few books. RJ managed to keep an astonishing quality up for 6 books. Then we had politics, sniffing and meddling for 4 books. The big choedan kal event... a brief time of pure joy and then just the darkness when he left us. I know I was devastated. Actually the SF/F book store where I bought the 6 or so first of the books foretold that RJ would die before finishing the books. I remember feeling the dread... which came true about 15 years later. The bad joke which turned out not to be a joke.

Doesn't anybody care about line lengths anymore? Wow.

But anyway yeah, I concur.

>And all the good times visiting this group in the ninetees, reading & sharing what other thought about the books actually made them so much better. The book releases were such times to look forward to. Good times...memories of light just now. They will not soon be forgotten!

Indeed, indeed. Hah, good times.

*snicker*

>Then Brandon saved the day. Or the years to come even. He did a great job I think. Not perfect, but RJ somehow was getting lost in his own story. Or that's what I felt anyway. Too many plots and too lengthy descriptions.

Again, agreed.

>I thoroughly enjoyed all three of Brandon's books. However I understand your feelings. I felt them too. Just not to the extent I think you did. Brandon writing style is a bit hasty. Which may to some extent be due to his promise to close the story without dragging things out even one uneccessary step.
>AMOL left me both hollow and satisfied. Satisfied that it was finally over. Hollow that it's over and there is nothing more.
>I enjoyed the ending, and think it was fitting. I was however missing a few pieces that I would have guessed RJ would have put in. Something small from an age to come (the way the books started), and a longer prophecy than what was given. And maybe something from the 3 girls perspective at the very end.
>Disatisfied thoughts about Tarmon Gaidon
>1. I like battles but even I thought it a bit too long, and surprisingly hastily described. The interesting events should have been spent more time on, and the back and forth manouvers should have been more brief.
>2. The 2 foolish I am a hero Demandred duels prequeling the one with Lan (also a bit foolish). The final one made me feel something though.
>3. The description of the OP beeing woven felt empty. Nothing new, not exciting.

I agree, though none of these really jumped out at me at the time.

>Highl�ghts

>1. Rand's meeting with Mat and Fortuona

Brilliant. Never thought of the prior claim Rand would have had.

Would have liked to see Hawkwing talking with Tuon as well. She was
still way too sure of her misconceptions at the end.

>2. Egwene's death - saviour scene

*nod*

>3. Lans fight with Demandred

Like you say, I think this was just one too many. Could have been
fixed by at least one other Forsaken doing something horrible instead.

Mind you, Demandred had an excuse for coming out of nowhere and being
awesome. He'd been working up to it forever. The rest, if they
suddenly stopped sucking, you'd have to wonder why they waited so
long.

>4. Perrins fighting plots

Too drawn-out, and he had too many comebacks.

>5. Rands fight with the DO - I "always" thought he wound reimprison the DO again (not kill him), either by removing the patch, mending the pattern and undoing the hole to the DO or by trapping him into callandor. I like the "tests" that the DO and Rand gives each other - we should have seen something like that coming up given RJ:s fancy recycling the bible.

Agreed, I liked the tests. Callandor just barely escaped being too
convenient, some of that stuff about it forcing a channeler into a
subservient link (and channeling the True Power) was a bit sudden but
the way they used the flaws, and the way they fixed up Lews Therin's
mistake by using saidar as well, that was good. I guess I knew they
were going to do it that way, but I did like the way it seemed
*possible* Rand could kill the Dark One, and I liked the way he was
made to realise it would destroy humanity just as surely as the Dark
One winning.

Protecting the True Source from tainting by using the Dark One's own
power really only makes sense the less you think about it, though. Why
couldn't he strike through his own power and taint saidar and saidin?
I guess Rand was making a shield of some sort out of True Power
weaves.

>6. The forsaken finally beeing real badasses

A couple of them, anyway.

>7. That people we like/love actually started dying

Yes. A bit abrupt, but a long time coming.

>8. The dragon holes

Yes!

>9. The "miracle" of lava

*snicker*

>10. Lan's initial scene
>11. Lan facing 2 Myrrdraal
>12. Moghediens fate
>13. The peace treaty scene

*nod nod nod nod*

>14. The Sharans arrival

Loved it. It would have really sucked to have them sit it out
entirely, and this explained Demandred right down to the ground. In
your face, Taimandretards.

And it didn't seem like a last-minute retcon or addition at all. Every
Dominion War needs a Breen.

>15. The surfacing of the Aiel's who's supposedly spit in the eye's of the sightblinder (I always wondered then they would turn up)

Yeah, that was a rather cool bit at the end of one of the previous
Sanderson books, very nice.

>16. Olver blowing the horn - even though that eventually became pretty obvious

*nod*

Was caught off-guard about Mat being disconnected from the Horn, and
had forgotten his death fromthe Darkhound completely.

>17. Birgittes death, Elayne's near death and Birgittes rescue

Have to admit I was surprised.

>More unfulfilling thought's / questions
>1. The numbers, where did all the Randland channelers disappear. The numbers do not add up!

I thought there were way more of them out there to get killed than
there should have been. Funny. I thought there were only a couple of
thousand, all told.

>2. The immense numbers of trollocs, how where they fed and breeded?

Yeah, a bit funny, could have been explained a bit more. Huge creepy
Blightfarms?

>3. The lack of "new" shadowspawn, I always imagined the worms in the blight to be "morphed"

Yeah, some of the fleeting glimpses were fun, in Rand's visions and
Faile's detour, but all in all, the series needed more Blight.

>4. The lack of description of where Demandred's new sa'angreal (Sarkanen?) came from.

*nod* Although the fact that he was in Shara the entire time, becoming
their God-King, explains it. A nation that powerful and mysterious is
allowed to have *one* artifact. And the Dark One himself deemed
Demandred to have done well.

I was expecting a weird twist of fate with that sa'angreal, with some
main character trying to use it on him (after Taim's death) and
getting toasted. Oh well.

>5. How Rand came to "resurrect" - I alway's imagined that Nynaeve
>somehow would do it.

Ugh, no please.

>Snatching his soul 3 days gone - biblic reference again - ever since the
>foreshadowing: "She wouldn't be satisfied until she healed someone 3
>days dead". Somehow I thought it fitting that he ended up in Moridin's
>body - given the strange interconnection the always had. However I
>had imagined that he would end up on a boat funeral pyre a'la
>Arthur Pendraegon.

Not sure if I am satisfied or cheated by Rand's body-swap, myself.
Have to think about it.

>6. The long wait of the Seanchan to rejoin the battle. That seemed too late.

Nah, perfect timing!

>7. Where were all the Seanchan grolms, torms, lopars in the beginning
>of the fight? They just joined the final assault. Why?

A good point.

>8. Why didn't the shadow strike the supply chain of the Light and their healing centre.

Yeah, the "outrageous" attack on the refugees that Logain settled,
that was one of the only ones. They should have been all over that
shit.

I guess they didn't want to divide their forces any further. But a
couple of raids could have been done, surely.

>9. Why didn't the light try any traps of their own? Like the one Taim set for Rand?

*nod*

>10. Why didn't the light hit the dark's supply chain?

*nod*

Wait, what supply chain? Blightfarms!

I guess the Trollocs were making their own supply chains as they
killed and died, that was mentioned a time or two. Hungry Hungry
Trollocs.

>11. What happened with the all the steel failing initial theme? - My thoughts were - shit the dragons are screwed.

Enh, that was just a bubble. Nobody could control that stuff.

>12. I would have expected at least one more gholam attack on the forces of the light's channelers

Were there any more gholam though?

>13. Logain's internal fight - it was a good idea/theme but poorly written

Yeah, I guess his glory was still on the horizon.

>Bah... ending with critique... that is totally unfair. It was a good book, actually one of the better! And I am forever thankful that you finished the series Brandon!
>Anyhow... thanks to all the fans here for sharing during all the years. It's been a lovely acquaintance!

I concur.

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 22:17:21 -0500, <zu...@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

SPOILERS

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>14. Tuon's meeting with Hawkwing and that conversation effecting the Aiel
>prophesy

Quite agree.

[Chucky @ Work]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:09:11 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>>As for Rand's new status as non-channeler, I wonder if burning out can be
>>Healed similar to severing? Assuming he ever wants to come out of
>>retirement, that is.
>
>I wondered the same thing, and I always suspected that Satelle was to
>be the exemplar for that. I was disappointed that Nynaeve never never
>encountered Satelle at all.

I assumed it could be Healed, which tended to dilute the impact of so
many channelers exhausting themselves in the fight, and in noble
self-sacrifice.

Never occurred to me that this was what had happened to Raridin,
though.

>OTOH, Rand does have some powers (e.g. how he lit his pipe) yet.

Yeah, what the happy hopping Hell was that anyway?

[TB]

On Jan 19, 3:31 pm, Marcus Melkersson <marcus.melkers...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Most of the AS perished in battle, as did many Asha'man.

> 2. The immense numbers of trollocs, how where they fed and breeded?
> 3. The lack of "new" shadowspawn, I always imagined the worms in the blight to be "morphed"
> 4. The lack of description of where Demandred's new sa'angreal (Sarkanen?) came from.
> 5. How Rand came to "resurrect" - I alway's imagined that Nynaeve somehow would do it. Snatching his soul 3 days gone - biblic reference again - ever since the foreshadowing: "She wouldn't be satisfied until she healed someone 3 days dead". Somehow I thought it fitting that he ended up in Moridin's body - given the strange interconnection the always had. However I had imagined that he would end up on a boat funeral pyre a'la Arthur Pendraegon.
> 6. The long wait of the Seanchan to rejoin the battle. That seemed too late.
> 7. Where were all the Seanchan grolms, torms, lopars in the beginning of the fight? They just joined the final assault. Why?
> 8. Why didn't the shadow strike the supply chain of the Light and their healing centre.
> 9. Why didn't the light try any traps of their own? Like the one Taim set for Rand?
> 10. Why didn't the light hit the dark's supply chain?

The Dark's supply chain consisted of Trollocs eating the dead and
stealing supplies from conquered territories. The Borderlanders
countered that by burning everything as they retreated.

[Ilya the Recusant]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:49:25 +0200, "Chucky @ Work"
<st.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:54:35 -0800 (PST), "icarp...@aol.com"
><icarp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>I just finished A Memory of Light. It's sort of hard to know what to say.
>>From book 1 to book 6 it was one of my favorite series. I recall
>>re-reading each book in preparation for the next new release...and
>>then it spiraled into galling mediocrity. I was actually pretty fed up the
>>Robert Jordan by the time he died and the series passed to Brian
>>Sanderson. Before the cherished hardcovers had a special place
>>on my shelf and were constantly re-read...and then it so happened
>>that I gave them all to the local library and only read each book once,
>>still following along in spite of myself. The final book had some good
>>scenes, resolved numerous plot threads and had a good ending, but,
>>like all of the recent others it was mostly just...dull. No spark was
>>left after 20+ years. Farewell, finally, Wheel of Time. We won't be
>>crossing paths again.
>
>Too many years of expectation. Those middle books should never have
>happened.

Agreed. A schoolmate and I had Wheel of Time reading competitions, to
see who could reach the most recently-published book first (which was,
at the time, The Path of Daggers). The first three books? Could read
one in a week (whilst balancing school with work). Four? Took about a
week and a half. Five? Just under two weeks. Six and seven took a
month. Eight about two weeks. When the later books came out, it was
even harder. Crossroads of Twilight? One day. Because I could skim it,
due to the simple fact that, well, nothing of any considerable
significance occurred. Plot-advancement died until Knife* of Dreams.

So yes - the middle books? What was needed was a Hammer of Editorial
Mightiness, and an editor who had final say on what did and did not go
into the manuscript. So much of the content of those books could have
been relegated to the bin, and simply been refererred to in passing by
someone else, or by messenger, or whatever the hell else.

Marching towards Tar Valon/the Shaido camp/an understanding of
Aludra's dragons? That shouldn't have taken so long.

I'd love to someday see some fan-edit that patched together the
interesting pieces from the middle books and removed all the
extraneous content and left it on the cutting-room floor, or at best,
simply introduce a chapter/scene that serves as a quick infodump to
quickly bring explain/account for all the [boring] edited material.

>- C@w

Ilya



*Still wish it had been titled Blade of Dreams. That would have been a
cooler title.




Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J

[Chucky & Janica]

*nod*

It really slowed down, and then overlapped. Too many plots. He wasn't
killing people the way Martin has been in his epic.

>So yes - the middle books? What was needed was a Hammer of Editorial
>Mightiness, and an editor who had final say on what did and did not go
>into the manuscript.

I heard it had one of them, but it didn't work out very well.

>So much of the content of those books could have
>been relegated to the bin, and simply been refererred to in passing by
>someone else, or by messenger, or whatever the hell else.
>
>Marching towards Tar Valon/the Shaido camp/an understanding of
>Aludra's dragons? That shouldn't have taken so long.

Agreed.

>I'd love to someday see some fan-edit that patched together the
>interesting pieces from the middle books and removed all the
>extraneous content and left it on the cutting-room floor, or at best,
>simply introduce a chapter/scene that serves as a quick infodump to
>quickly bring explain/account for all the [boring] edited material.

Heh. The Steal's the best I can offer.

>*Still wish it had been titled Blade of Dreams. That would have been a
>cooler title.

What was it even meant to mean? It was taken from a Seanchan proverb
of some sort, but what was the relevance?



C&J

[Ilya the Recusant]

Or simply concluding side-stories that, for whatever level of interest
readers (or Jordan himself) may have had in them, were tangential and
did not have the highest level of importance to the main story.

>>So yes - the middle books? What was needed was a Hammer of Editorial
>>Mightiness, and an editor who had final say on what did and did not go
>>into the manuscript.
>
>I heard it had one of them, but it didn't work out very well.

For anyone but his accountant.

>>I'd love to someday see some fan-edit that patched together the
>>interesting pieces from the middle books and removed all the
>>extraneous content and left it on the cutting-room floor, or at best,
>>simply introduce a chapter/scene that serves as a quick infodump to
>>quickly bring explain/account for all the [boring] edited material.
>
>Heh. The Steal's the best I can offer.

A friend and I, back when we were in school, attempted to edit the
first 2 novels. We gave up in abject frustration. And because we'd
gotten accepted into university.

>>*Still wish it had been titled Blade of Dreams. That would have been a
>>cooler title.
>
>What was it even meant to mean? It was taken from a Seanchan proverb
>of some sort, but what was the relevance?

"The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a
knife of dreams. � From Fog and Steel by Madoc Comadrin"

I...who knows.

>C&J

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:43:27 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
<ilya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>I'd love to someday see some fan-edit that patched together the
>>>interesting pieces from the middle books and removed all the
>>>extraneous content and left it on the cutting-room floor, or at best,
>>>simply introduce a chapter/scene that serves as a quick infodump to
>>>quickly bring explain/account for all the [boring] edited material.
>>
>>Heh. The Steal's the best I can offer.
>
>A friend and I, back when we were in school, attempted to edit the
>first 2 novels. We gave up in abject frustration. And because we'd
>gotten accepted into university.

That'll do it.

>>>*Still wish it had been titled Blade of Dreams. That would have been a
>>>cooler title.
>>
>>What was it even meant to mean? It was taken from a Seanchan proverb
>>of some sort, but what was the relevance?
>
>"The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a
>knife of dreams. � From Fog and Steel by Madoc Comadrin"
>
>I...who knows.

You know, I persistently mis-read that as "Frog and Steel".

Which made it awesome.

[pbo...@conservation.org]

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:48:28 PM UTC-5, Scott Wood wrote:
> On 2013-01-19, Marcus Melkersson <marcus.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > SPOILER SPACE
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> [snip]

Late response as I've only just finished the book (having re-read the previous 13 in advance).

> > I thoroughly enjoyed all three of Brandon's books. However I understand
>
> > your feelings. I felt them too. Just not to the extent I think you
>
> > did. Brandon writing style is a bit hasty. Which may to some extent
>
> > be due to his promise to close the story without dragging things out
>
> > even one uneccessary step.
>
>
>
> I think it's only hasty by comparison to what come before. It was a
>
> needed change.

I think his pacing's good generally, but there were a few things that were rather too perfunctory, particularly with regards to characters he mostly neglected (such as Fain, a relief since his brief appearances showed that Sanderson writes him badly, but a character who needed a much more prominent role in the last books), and some of his choices of characters to neglect and those to prioritise jarred with the established importance of characters in Jordan's narrative (too much Gawyn and Slayer, too little Cadsuane and Nynaeve, for instance).

We were also rushed through character deaths - I've read people saying that the good guys got off lightly, but that's really only because only Egwene and Gawyn got death scenes (even Rand didn't get a "death" scene, but 'died' offscreen in a tent). Romanda and Suian were particularly perfunctory in their treatment.

Other semi-major characters were left hanging, their fates unresolved (such as Bornhald, Elyas, Joline, Bair, Melaine or Sulin), or their main plots waved away as they suddenly turn up randomly as a namecheck for no good reason (such as Teslyn, whose reception at the White Tower was something I'd very much have liked to see). And after all that, Moirane's role was almost nonexistent.

I think Sanderson resolved most of the plot threads still dangling, but I lost track of where the Merillile plot thread went - she vanished with Talaan and as far as I know was never rediscovered. Talaan turns up in Shayol Ghul but there's no mention of Merillile anywhere in the book, and nothing is said of Talaan's vanishing act.

> > I enjoyed the ending, and think it was fitting. I was however missing a
>
> > few pieces that I would have guessed RJ would have put in. Something
>
> > small from an age to come (the way the books started), and a longer
>
> > prophecy than what was given. And maybe something from the 3 girls
>
> > perspective at the very end.

I'd have liked a bit more on Logain. The idea was fitting for his glory, better than simply killing a Forsaken or two, but "Logain restores faith in men who can channel by saving a few kids, and suddenly parents are queuing to send them for training" is much too rushed a way to resolve it.

> > Highlíghts
>
> > 1. Rand's meeting with Mat and Fortuona
>
>
>
> Not to mention Egwene's meeting with Fortuona...

That was very good, but I wondered in Rand's meeting why he hadn't come up with the same suggestion Egwene did to let the ones who wanted to be freed go. I'd also have liked to see Tuon respond by bringing out Elaida and challenging Egwene on whether she would really risk a crisis in White Tower leadership during the Last Battle (as releasing the former Amyrlin would do).

> > 5. Rands fight with the DO - I "always" thought he wound reimprison the
>
> > DO again (not kill him), either by removing the patch, mending the
>
> > pattern and undoing the hole to the DO or by trapping him into
>
> > callandor. I like the "tests" that the DO and Rand gives each other -
>
> > we should have seen something like that coming up given RJ:s fancy
>
> > recycling the bible.

The only issue I have with this is that Rand's fantasy idea of killing the Dark One came out of nowhere much too late in the day (and it wouldn't have taken the Dark One's display to show anyone who thought it through that it wouldn't work out that way) - it allowed for an entertaining scene, but since we'd spent 13 books being primed with the idea that the whole point was to reimprison the Dark One rather than kill him, Rand's change of heart and then his change of heart back again lacked meaning. And yes, as you note the idea that the Dark One is the root of all evil, even such things as random murders and theft, doesn't sit well with the story we've been presented with to date.

> > 13. The peace treaty scene
>
>
>
> Any bets on how long that'll last? The ink wasn't even dry before
>
> Fortuona pondered breaking it. The Sharans weren't a party to it, and
>
> whatever's left of them may be a bit upset. Saldaea could be in for a
>
> messy succession. There's no mechanism for amending the terms.

There's no mechanism for giving the Aiel redress if they're the ones with a grievance, either (as, being Aiel, they're bound to) - something Avienda really should have picked up on given her vision and the Aiel's desire for redress against the Seanchan.

All in all it seemed a mechanism intended to set up a sequel series more than anything.

> > 11. What happened with the all the steel failing initial theme? - My
>
> > thoughts were - shit the dragons are screwed.
>
>
>
> It was a local bubble of evil.

Yep, just a way of writing the Jarid Sarand plot strand out of the story, since it never went anywhere.

One of my pet peeves: the way everyone in the story seemed to know which Forsaken were alive and which not. Demandred - one of the few who actually knew Asmodean was dead (the Dark One had told him) - did namecheck him at one point, but although most other characters didn't know he was dead, none of them wondered about his involvement in events.

A big deal was made of Graendal faking her death at the start of the last book, but most of the characters who subsequently encountered her had since met Rand (who believed her dead and would presumably have shared that knowledge), but all of them listed Graendal among the Forsaken they expected to still be alive.

Conversely, there was no follow-up on the previous book's comment that someone impersonating Sammael had reappeared.

[pbo...@conservation.org]

On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:08:51 AM UTC-5, Chucky@Work wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:31:03 -0800 (PST), Marcus Melkersson

>
>

> Was caught off-guard about Mat being disconnected from the Horn, and
>
> had forgotten his death fromthe Darkhound completely.

I think that's the wrong death. That happened before he entered the ter'angreal, and Moirane's balefire resurrected him. I presume the reference was to his revival after Rahvin killed him (which was reversed by Rand's balefire).

> >17. Birgittes death, Elayne's near death and Birgittes rescue
>
>
>
> Have to admit I was surprised.

It would have been a nice touch if Hurin had been resurrected as Hero of the Horn, and a nod to Hawkwing's comment in The Great Hunt.

> >12. I would have expected at least one more gholam attack on the forces of the light's channelers
>
>
>
> Were there any more gholam though?

Pretty sure Sammael's PoV scenes made it clear he'd only come across one. I did however wonder if the comment that gholam were the only Shadowspawn that could survive going through a gateway was a hint that it would be back. Since it wasn't that comment seemed a bit pointless.

> >13. Logain's internal fight - it was a good idea/theme but poorly written
>
>
>
> Yeah, I guess his glory was still on the horizon.

His internal conflict just came too late, since we had very few Logain PoVs.

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 17:48:24 -0700 (PDT), pbo...@conservation.org
wrote:

>> Was caught off-guard about Mat being disconnected from the Horn, and
>> had forgotten his death fromthe Darkhound completely.
>
>I think that's the wrong death. That happened before he entered
>the ter'angreal, and Moirane's balefire resurrected him. I presume the
>reference was to his revival after Rahvin killed him (which was
>reversed by Rand's balefire).

Oh. But the Darkhound one was mentioned specifically in the book,
wasn't it?

Either one would do it, though, I suppose.

>> >17. Birgittes death, Elayne's near death and Birgittes rescue
>>
>> Have to admit I was surprised.
>
>It would have been a nice touch if Hurin had been resurrected
>as Hero of the Horn, and a nod to Hawkwing's comment in The
>Great Hunt.

Good point.

>> >12. I would have expected at least one more gholam attack on the
>> >forces of the light's channelers
>>
>> Were there any more gholam though?
>
>Pretty sure Sammael's PoV scenes made it clear he'd only come across
>one. I did however wonder if the comment that gholam were the only
>Shadowspawn that could survive going through a gateway was a
>hint that it would be back. Since it wasn't that comment seemed a
>bit pointless.

Well, maybe this was a clue as to why the gholam even survived
stepping into the Skimming plane. So maybe other Shadowspawn would
have been killed by that too. As it was, the gholam just had to be
"killed" by being left in there forever.

>> >13. Logain's internal fight - it was a good idea/theme but poorly written
>>
>> Yeah, I guess his glory was still on the horizon.
>
>His internal conflict just came too late, since we had very few Logain PoVs.

True.

[pbo...@conservation.org]

On Monday, May 27, 2013 2:35:50 AM UTC-4, Chucky@Work wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2013 17:48:24 -0700 (PDT), pbo...@conservation.org
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Was caught off-guard about Mat being disconnected from the Horn, and
>
> >> had forgotten his death fromthe Darkhound completely.
>
> >
>
> >I think that's the wrong death. That happened before he entered
>
> >the ter'angreal, and Moirane's balefire resurrected him. I presume the
>
> >reference was to his revival after Rahvin killed him (which was
>
> >reversed by Rand's balefire).
>
>
>
> Oh. But the Darkhound one was mentioned specifically in the book,
>
> wasn't it?

I don't think it was explicitly confirmed that Mat was dead that time, since it occurred 'off screen'. We were told that a Darkhound bite would have killed him, and that it wasn't Healable, but it may be that he was still alive but dying when Moirane balefired the Darkhound.

[Ilya the Recusant]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:45:51 +0300, "Chucky @ Work"
<st.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:43:27 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
><ilya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>I'd love to someday see some fan-edit that patched together the
>>>>interesting pieces from the middle books and removed all the
>>>>extraneous content and left it on the cutting-room floor, or at best,
>>>>simply introduce a chapter/scene that serves as a quick infodump to
>>>>quickly bring explain/account for all the [boring] edited material.
>>>
>>>Heh. The Steal's the best I can offer.
>>
>>A friend and I, back when we were in school, attempted to edit the
>>first 2 novels. We gave up in abject frustration. And because we'd
>>gotten accepted into university.
>
>That'll do it.

It seems like one those projects that would be fascinating,
except...life's too short for that sort of project. Unless one is some
kind of really intense fanboy/fangirl.

>>>>*Still wish it had been titled Blade of Dreams. That would have been a
>>>>cooler title.
>>>
>>>What was it even meant to mean? It was taken from a Seanchan proverb
>>>of some sort, but what was the relevance?
>>
>>"The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a
>>knife of dreams. — From Fog and Steel by Madoc Comadrin"
>>
>>I...who knows.
>
>You know, I persistently mis-read that as "Frog and Steel".
>
>Which made it awesome.

Hee hee. Frog and Steel. The kind of story-title that definitely could
with little difficulty attract attention.

>C@w

[mjt...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:54:35 AM UTC, icarp...@aol.com wrote:
> I just finished A Memory of Light. It's sort of hard to know what to say. From book 1 to book 6 it was one of my favorite series. I recall re-reading each book in preparation for the next new release...and then it spiraled into galling mediocrity. I was actually pretty fed up the Robert Jordan by the time he died and the series passed to Brian Sanderson. Before the cherished hardcovers had a special place on my shelf and were constantly re-read...and then it so happened that I gave them all to the local library and only read each book once, still following along in spite of myself. The final book had some good scenes, resolved numerous plot threads and had a good ending, but, like all of the recent others it was mostly just...dull. No spark was left after 20+ years. Farewell, finally, Wheel of Time. We won't be crossing paths again.
>
>
>
> Matt

I totally agree with that. The first few books were good and promised much. The later books are commercial drivel- I thought he must be getting paid by the amount of garbage-verbiage churned out and keep the gravy traing moving along. The first 4 or 5 books I was able to re-read with interest and even scribbled notes to keep track of the Byzantine storylines! The last 6 books I could not read even ONCE - I found myself skipping pages (endless boring shameless repetitions of what Sedia Poobah was wearing and what the furniture looked like etc etc)in an attempt to see if the story was going anywhere. It was not. Bah. Thrice Gah. Wasted money and time and feel "we wuz robbed".

[Rast]

mjt...@gmail.com wrote...

> The first 4 or 5 books I was able to re-read with interest and even scribbled notes to keep track of the Byzantine storylines! The last 6 books I could not read even ONCE - I found myself skipping pages (endless boring shameless repetitions of what Sedia Poobah was wearing and what the furniture looked like etc etc)in an attempt to see if the story was going anywhere. It was not. Bah. Thrice Gah. Wasted money and time and feel "we wuz robbed".

Sooooo... have you tried the Ice & Fire series by George "RR" Martin?