DOCTOR WHO: Season 35 Episode 7: The Zygon Invasion

[Mike M]

Stream of consciousness gibberish incoming
...
T
R
U
T
H
.
O
R
.
C
O
N
S
E
Q
U
E
N
C
E
S

No, not mine. The director's (or possibly the writer's). I'd been quite
looking forward to this one. UNIT, Osgood (somehow) and a sequel to _The
Day of the Doctor_ that would pick up on the outcomes from that story's big
B-plot. What's not to like?

As it turns out, everything. Flaccid pacing, phoned in performances from
EVERYONE other than Peter Capaldi, a complete waste of a reasonable (for
Doctor Who) premise, waste of good guest stars (Rebecca Front is MUCH
better than that); bad continuity and logic within the episode, pissing on
the memory of a former companion and famed Whovian, long dead; forced set
ups and unbelievable stupidity from all characters.

From the top: a good recap of the salient points of the 50th anniversary
story about and an immediate answer (sort of) to the Osgood problem (she
was killed off in _Death in Heaven_). We see that the survivor is the human
one (not using the Doctor's logic from later in the episode; just based on
the fact that the surviving Osgood NEEDS her inhaler under stress.)

Cut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
over all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
around: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
suddenly socially acceptable?

Cut to UNIT, unaccountably banished from their Tower of London HQ to some
rundown old office block, explaining how they have lost track of 20,000,000
refugees because one person had sole custody of the data. Ugh.

Cut to Clara, who despite apparently missing 128 calls (wouldn't that take
well over an hour of near continuous redials?) doesn't immediately stop and
deal with that as a priority but instead handles the problems of a small
boy who stops her on the stairs. I would have been much happier with this
trap if the boy hadn't then been brought in screaming, indicating that HE
WASN'T PART OF THE SETUP. Say what?

And this rubbish goes on and on. The secret base in "Turmezistan" - what,
is this just to underline the heavy handed Islamist allegory here? It looks
like an English village. The war room chart is of the British Isles. So why
isn't this camp in Caithness again? It would have made much more sense.
Setting _Before the Flood_ in, say, 2025 and using the same location here
would have made even more sense and been cleverly recursive.

And the Zygons install teleports in every elevator in London and then walk
halfway round the world through tunnels? Really?

They can now replicate someone well enough to fool family members just by
looking into their minds, and yet they still keep thousands of people on
ice in pods WHY? Not to mention, this telepathic representation can
apparently work via a remote drone camera, detecting the right operator and
copying her husband and son.

Mind you, that same power is not good enough for a "mother" to be able to
pluck her son's birthday from his mind. No, wait: it's SO good that
"Clara" can step away from her template, call the Doctor, and begin the
conversation with "Did you just call yourself Dr. Disco?". Way to go, Mr
Consistency.

The "New Mexico" set dressing felt unusually inauthentic and cheap. Do
small NM towns often have narrow streets with low sidewalks, parking
prevention bollards and closely spaced olde-worlde lampposts? And police
stations with crumbling stucco walls and a temporary-looking placard above
the door?

And has Kate Stewart been taking Stupid pills, to wander round a completely
deserted town for hours accompanied by one unexplained "survivor" without
being uncannily suspicious?

Finally (I could go on but enough already) "I do like poncing about in a
big plane". You have a bloody TARDIS, Doctor. The ONLY reason for the plane
is so it can be shot at. Gah.

Virtually unmitigated garbage from end to end, apart from a few good Doctor
character moments. (And for those of you hating the guitar; it's ENTIRELY
IN KEEPING. It's better than the recorder, better than crooning Venusian
lullabies, and much, much, MUCH better than the spoons - to mention just
three previous "musical" Doctors).

2/10. And the only reason I'm looking forward to next week is that it will
draw a shroud over this whole shabby disaster.

--
"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't
important."

[Barry Margolin]

In article <d9oncm...@mid.individual.net>,

Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:

> Cut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
> over all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
> around: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
> suddenly socially acceptable?

The Doctor does a LOT of thing that should normally shock people, yet he
gets away with it all the time. If you want to fan-wank it, maybe he
gives off some kind of "trust field".

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[Bill Jillians]

In message <barmar-9AF342....@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes

Kids would trust the doctor. But kids shouldn't trust strangers. But
the doctor ... as far as kids watching the show are concerned, is not a
stranger.

Its another compromise.

--
Bill Jillians

Idlehands admits how dumb he is.
"Thank god we are as fucking stupid as the British, that is if the chicken
fucker and binky are any representation."

[suzeeq]

Bill Jillians wrote:
> In message <barmar-9AF342....@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes
>> In article <d9oncm...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Cut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
>>> over all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
>>> around: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
>>> suddenly socially acceptable?
>> The Doctor does a LOT of thing that should normally shock people, yet he
>> gets away with it all the time. If you want to fan-wank it, maybe he
>> gives off some kind of "trust field".
>>
>
> Kids would trust the doctor. But kids shouldn't trust strangers. But
> the doctor ... as far as kids watching the show are concerned, is not a
> stranger.

Everyone seems to know who the Doctor is..

> Its another compromise.
>

[Your Name]

In article <AZeq+BJS...@btinternet.com>, Bill Jillians

<willaim.j...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In message <barmar-9AF342....@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes
> >In article <d9oncm...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Cut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
> >> over all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
> >> around: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
> >> suddenly socially acceptable?
> >
> >The Doctor does a LOT of thing that should normally shock people, yet he
> >gets away with it all the time. If you want to fan-wank it, maybe he
> >gives off some kind of "trust field".
>
> Kids would trust the doctor. But kids shouldn't trust strangers. But
> the doctor ... as far as kids watching the show are concerned, is not a
> stranger.
>
> Its another compromise.

Yep, kids shouldn't take candy from strangers. Kids shouldn't eat lots
of candy, etc.

Oh, wait, there was just had an idiotic day were kids are encouraged to
do exactly that. :-\

[Siri Cruz]

In article <slrnn3fo6a.1b...@pjr.no-ip.org>,

Peter J Ross <peadar...@gmx.com> wrote:

> > The "New Mexico" set dressing felt unusually inauthentic and cheap. Do
> > small NM towns often have narrow streets with low sidewalks, parking
> > prevention bollards and closely spaced olde-worlde lampposts? And police
> > stations with crumbling stucco walls and a temporary-looking placard above
> > the door?
>

> Perhaps it was designed by the Kraal?
>
> We seem to have regressed from the great days when the set of The
> Gunfighters looked quite convincing.

One of the things about New Mexico not true about England is you don't have to
go far to drop completely off the map. Since Zygon children can't always hold a
body shape, it would be easy to set up an isolated community where their
children could learn their craft without fear of detection. And completely off
the map means even disappearing from the government.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline

[Barry Margolin]

In article <AZeq+BJS...@btinternet.com>,
Bill Jillians <willaim.j...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In message <barmar-9AF342....@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes
> >In article <d9oncm...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Cut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
> >> over all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
> >> around: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
> >> suddenly socially acceptable?
> >
> >The Doctor does a LOT of thing that should normally shock people, yet he
> >gets away with it all the time. If you want to fan-wank it, maybe he
> >gives off some kind of "trust field".
> >
>
> Kids would trust the doctor. But kids shouldn't trust strangers. But
> the doctor ... as far as kids watching the show are concerned, is not a
> stranger.
>
> Its another compromise.

The OP was talking about adults not freeking out when they saw a strange
old man talking to the children.

It's really just a matter of suspension of disbelief. The Doctor
frequently encounters children, and it would really interrupt the action
if he had to get permission from the parents every time.

[Agamemnon]

He shouldn't be looking like a pervert in dark glasses and talking to
kids that are not his own in a playground in the first place and the
Zygons are bigger perverts than him by disguising themselves as Children
and using a Junior School as their base.

What exactly was going though the minds of the morons running the BBC
when they allowed this to be made and shown as an example to kids?

Why did UNIT allow adult Zygons to secrete themselves among children?

Was it an attempt by the writer to allegorise the Zygons with child
molesters as well as Muslims and illegal immigrants?

Why wasn't the Doctor accompanied by police officers when he went to the
playground with warrants to take the kids in to custody in order to
question them?

[Your Name]

In article
<chine.bleu-FC7A4...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>, Siri Cruz

<chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnn3fo6a.1b...@pjr.no-ip.org>,
> Peter J Ross <peadar...@gmx.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > The "New Mexico" set dressing felt unusually inauthentic and cheap. Do
> > > small NM towns often have narrow streets with low sidewalks, parking
> > > prevention bollards and closely spaced olde-worlde lampposts? And police
> > > stations with crumbling stucco walls and a temporary-looking placard above
> > > the door?
> >
> > Perhaps it was designed by the Kraal?
> >
> > We seem to have regressed from the great days when the set of The
> > Gunfighters looked quite convincing.
>
> One of the things about New Mexico not true about England is you don't have
> to go far to drop completely off the map. Since Zygon children can't always
> hold a body shape, it would be easy to set up an isolated community
> where their children could learn their craft without fear of detection. And
> completely off the map means even disappearing from the government.

You've obviously never been to Newcastle or Brixton. ;-)

[Mike M]

On 02/11/2015 18:38, TB wrote:
> On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 10:01:38 AM UTC-8, Mike M wrote:
>> Timothy Bruening <tsbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 1:06:40 AM UTC-8, Mike M wrote:
>>>> Stream of consciousness gibberish incoming
>>>> ...
>>>> T
>>>> R
>>>> U
>>>> T
>>>> H
>>>> .
>>>> O
>>>> R
>>>> .
>>>> C
>>>> O
>>>> N
>>>> S
>>>> E
>>>> Q
>>>> U
>>>> E
>>>> N
>>>> C
>>>> E
>>>> S
>>>>

>>>> pissing on
>>>> the memory of a former companion and famed Whovian, long dead; forced set
>>>> ups and unbelievable stupidity from all characters.
>>>>
>>>

>>> Which former Companion's reputation got smeared?
>>>
>>
>> In my opinion, Harry Sullivan would never have developed destructive gases.
>
> How did you develop that opinion?
>

I answered this on another thread Tim -

They mentioned a medical officer from UNIT in the 70s/80s (acknowledging
the UNIT date controversy AGAIN, boring) who was involved in the Loch
Ness Zygon incident and then assigned to Porton Down (genuinely
Britain's chemical warfare research base, in case anyone didn't know),
who developed the inversion gas.

So that was Harry Sullivan. Possibly they didn't name check him just
because the name would mean nothing to anyone who didn't know.

However, we fans got to know Harry Sullivan [and, previously, his
uncanny lookalike Lt. John Andrews ;)] over his year and a half in the
series. Harry Sullivan may have been an IDIOT! but developing a lethal
nerve gas? He was a good doctor who worked with the good Doctor (two of
him, even). I don't believe he would have been THAT kind of idiot.

It also seemingly contradicts what Sarah Jane Smith said in _Death of
the Doctor_ about old companions: "I can't be sure, but there's a woman
called Tegan in Australia, fighting for Aboriginal rights. There's a Ben
and Polly, in India, running an orphanage there. There was Harry. Oh, I
loved Harry. He was a doctor. He did such good work with vaccines. He
saved thousands of lives. And there's a Dorothy something. She runs that
company, A Charitable Earth. She's raised billions. And this couple in
Cambridge, both professors. Ian and Barbara Chesterton. Rumour has it,
they've never aged. Not since the sixties. I wonder."

Makes you wonder if the Harry Sullivan they wouldn't name was a Zygon
copy who developed the gas ...

(Aside: here, the caring but past tense reference to Harry is clearly a
nicely subtle acknowledgment of Ian Marter's death).

[Mike M]

On 03/11/2015 00:54, Barry Margolin wrote:

In addition to which: the two in question were not really children and
had possibly never been seen with their own "responsible adults". They
were the Zygon high command (and probably, two of th ones who had been
imperonating UNIT personnel in _The Day of the Doctor_). It might have
been assumed by passers by that this was a grandfather playing with his
own kids.

Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely
position of authority and trustworthiness at every turn (unless
authorial fiat requires that people be suspicious of him).

So I happily withdraw this specific nitpick as an issue with the
episode. Gods know it's got enough other problems dragging it down that
dropping one won't lift it up into mediocrity.

[Agamemnon]

Only if they had seen him bring them to the park in the first place or
they knew him beforehand as someone related to them or the kids came
running to him and calling him Grandfather or something like that. In
what was shown the kids didn't seem to want to engage in conversation
with him.

> Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
> numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely

So did Jimmy Saville.

> position of authority and trustworthiness at every turn (unless
> authorial fiat requires that people be suspicious of him).
>
> So I happily withdraw this specific nitpick as an issue with the
> episode. Gods know it's got enough other problems dragging it down that
> dropping one won't lift it up into mediocrity.
>

What about these adult Zygons disguising themselves as kids in the first
place and going to school and sharing the same changing rooms as other
real kids?

They must have been attending the lessons as well so how did they
disguise their superior intelligence?

This is obviously Moffat's attempt to follow the same brief as Alien's
of London/World War 3 (showing that he's totally run out of ideas) and
failing to do it as well as RTD.

[Mike M]

That is just another example of your obsession with having all the detailed
minutiae explained to your personal satisfaction in a tedious exposition
that would make every episode last for hours, and seem much longer. My note
should be read in conjunction with the paragraph following.

>> Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
>> numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely
>
> So did Jimmy Saville.
>

No he didn't . I always thought he looked like a sleaze bag weirdo and was
not at all surprised when he was outed as a molester. Just disappointed
that it only happened posthumously.

He was a pervert with a lot of rich and powerful friends willing to look
the other way. There were a lot of people like that in the past and I'm not
sure it's altogether changed yet - looking forward to the day the Catholic
Church kicks out 50 priests publicly who have NOT had the public eye turned
upon them. And then does it again every time it finds a paedophile in its
ranks.

>> position of authority and trustworthiness at every turn (unless
>> authorial fiat requires that people be suspicious of him).
>>
>> So I happily withdraw this specific nitpick as an issue with the
>> episode. Gods know it's got enough other problems dragging it down that
>> dropping one won't lift it up into mediocrity.
>>
>
> What about these adult Zygons disguising themselves as kids in the first
> place and going to school and sharing the same changing rooms as other
> real kids?
>

Not seen. That is your own imagination at work.

> They must have been attending the lessons as well so how did they
> disguise their superior intelligence?
>

Not seen. They might just have "gone to school" then spent all day
titivating their polyps. If they kept to themselves, everyone would assume
they were in another class.

> This is obviously Moffat's attempt to follow the same brief as Alien's
> of London/World War 3 (showing that he's totally run out of ideas) and
> failing to do it as well as RTD.
>

World War Three came to my mind too, but it's not worse than that. Equally
crap but Zygon has better aliens, perhaps.

[Agamemnon]

You mean my demand for good writing. An American show would have at
least included something like a line in the dialogue with UNIT saying
"and by the way Doctor, they're disguised as school kids..."

>>> Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
>>> numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely
>>
>> So did Jimmy Saville.
>>
>
> No he didn't .

The media, especially the BBC tried to make him look as if he was. The
did the same with Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall and Dave Lee Travis.

>I always thought he looked like a sleaze bag weirdo and was
> not at all surprised when he was outed as a molester. Just disappointed
> that it only happened posthumously.

I wouldn't have trusted him either but that does not excuse what the BBC
is doing and has done in the past.

The Doctor should not be approaching kids he has no relation to.

>
> He was a pervert with a lot of rich and powerful friends willing to look
> the other way. There were a lot of people like that in the past and I'm not
> sure it's altogether changed yet - looking forward to the day the Catholic
> Church kicks out 50 priests publicly who have NOT had the public eye turned
> upon them. And then does it again every time it finds a paedophile in its
> ranks.
>
>>> position of authority and trustworthiness at every turn (unless
>>> authorial fiat requires that people be suspicious of him).
>>>
>>> So I happily withdraw this specific nitpick as an issue with the
>>> episode. Gods know it's got enough other problems dragging it down that
>>> dropping one won't lift it up into mediocrity.
>>>
>>
>> What about these adult Zygons disguising themselves as kids in the first
>> place and going to school and sharing the same changing rooms as other
>> real kids?
>>
> Not seen. That is your own imagination at work.
>

Why did adult Zygons disguise themselves as school kids?

Why did they use a school as the command centre?

Either they're perverts or there's another explanation. The writer has
failed to say what.

>> They must have been attending the lessons as well so how did they
>> disguise their superior intelligence?
>>
>
> Not seen. They might just have "gone to school" then spent all day
> titivating their polyps. If they kept to themselves, everyone would assume
> they were in another class.

Were they someone else's kids they were impersonating. What did they do
with the real kids?

[Mike M]

Totally unnecessary and would have dramatically reduced the impact and
entertainment value of the Doctor's "blobby" lines. Curse you Aggy for
putting me in the invidious position of defending this crappy episode!

>>>> Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
>>>> numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely
>>>
>>> So did Jimmy Saville.
>>>
>>
>> No he didn't .
>
> The media, especially the BBC tried to make him look as if he was. The
> did the same with Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall and Dave Lee Travis.
>

You're overstating the case, as always. Yes, the establishment tries to
cover up scandal and yes, undoubtedly some evidence was ignored by some
people. But conservatism and assumptions of innocence explain, but do not
excuse, a lot of it.

>> I always thought he looked like a sleaze bag weirdo and was
>> not at all surprised when he was outed as a molester. Just disappointed
>> that it only happened posthumously.
>
> I wouldn't have trusted him either but that does not excuse what the BBC
> is doing and has done in the past.
>

Straw man. I never said it did.

> The Doctor should not be approaching kids he has no relation to.
>

He didn't. He approached the undercover Zygon high command.

That said, people approach children they aren't related to every day.
Almost all of them do not have perverted agendas - that you assume they do
says something about YOU, not them. I have myself spoken to a small scared
child to ask him where his mummy was and then held his hand to take him to
the Customer Services desk where someone could help him find her.

>
> Why did adult Zygons disguise themselves as school kids?
>
> Why did they use a school as the command centre?
>
> Either they're perverts or there's another explanation. The writer has
> failed to say what.
>

There's another explanation but the writer didn't bother to fill it in
because he thought it would be too much tedious exposition.

That you choose to fill the gap with baseless assumptions of perversion
says something about YOU, not the story.

>>
>> They might just have "gone to school" then spent all day
>> titivating their polyps. If they kept to themselves, everyone would assume
>> they were in another class.
>
> Were they someone else's kids they were impersonating. What did they do
> with the real kids?
>

For those truly embedded under the treaty, their templates would be living
elsewhere. Newcastle maybe - far enough away for paths not to cross. It's
only the rebels subverting society who would be replacing their templates.

[Siri Cruz]

In article <d9raiq...@mid.individual.net>, Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com>
wrote:

> > The Doctor should not be approaching kids he has no relation to.

Why not? He shouldn't use force on children, or adults, without reason, which
would include he shouldn't force children, or adults, to remain or respond. I
see adults talking to children everytime I go by the park. Unless a child
appeared to be distress I won't interfere.

> He didn't. He approached the undercover Zygon high command.

Apparently it's a enforceable thoughtcrime to do anything any pervert would
regard as perverted.

[Agamemnon]

You mean his Marx Brothers skit? It would have been better if it had
been left out. Doctor Disco? and the other bullshit.

> putting me in the invidious position of defending this crappy episode!
>

You don't have to find reasons defend it. You can just agree with me.

"and by the way Doctor, they're disguised as school kids..." would have
been a much better way of doing it as it would have prepared the viewers
for what was to come. But Moffat and his writers don't know how to do
tension. They messed up the tension building elsewhere by not showing
Clara being taken over by a Zygon and thus leaving the viewer guessing
when of if UNIT would find out who she really was. They also messed it
up by not showing the boy's parent's telling him to play on the stairs
so as to trap Clara. They totally screwed it but not introducing the
character of the soldier's mother before he was sent off on a mission in
Turmenistan. RTD would have relished writing the soap opera that that
would have involved. Also they screwed everything up with Kate Stewart
in New Mexico when they should have had her accompanied by soldiers and
had them bumped off one by one until the final reveal.

>>>>> Plus, as been rightly pointed out, the Doctor seems to have this whole
>>>>> numinous "Trust me, I'm the Doctor" aura that puts him into an unlikely
>>>>
>>>> So did Jimmy Saville.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No he didn't .
>>
>> The media, especially the BBC tried to make him look as if he was. The
>> did the same with Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall and Dave Lee Travis.
>>
>
> You're overstating the case, as always. Yes, the establishment tries to
> cover up scandal and yes, undoubtedly some evidence was ignored by some
> people. But conservatism and assumptions of innocence explain, but do not
> excuse, a lot of it.
>
>>> I always thought he looked like a sleaze bag weirdo and was
>>> not at all surprised when he was outed as a molester. Just disappointed
>>> that it only happened posthumously.
>>
>> I wouldn't have trusted him either but that does not excuse what the BBC
>> is doing and has done in the past.
>>
> Straw man. I never said it did.

Well you just have to question weather they have ulterior motives given
their past reputation. They put RTD in charge and he used the show to
promote his gay agenda. They put some woman in charge of production or
commissioning and they use it to promote an anti-male feminist agenda
permeating into the heart of every show on the station.

>
>> The Doctor should not be approaching kids he has no relation to.
>>
>
> He didn't. He approached the undercover Zygon high command.
>

THE DOCTOR: "You see constable, these two girls are not really girls but
are the undercover leaders of the Zygon high command."

POLICE CONSTABLE: "Cuff him and read him his rights."

> That said, people approach children they aren't related to every day.
> Almost all of them do not have perverted agendas - that you assume they do
> says something about YOU, not them. I have myself spoken to a small scared
> child to ask him where his mummy was and then held his hand to take him to
> the Customer Services desk where someone could help him find her.
>

Was the Doctor helping a small scared child that had lost his mother?

Did either of those girls look to be in distress? If they didn't know
him most people would ask what is this strange old man wearing dark
glasses doing in a children playground. You even said so yourself.

>>
>> Why did adult Zygons disguise themselves as school kids?
>>
>> Why did they use a school as the command centre?
>>
>> Either they're perverts or there's another explanation. The writer has
>> failed to say what.
>>
>
> There's another explanation but the writer didn't bother to fill it in
> because he thought it would be too much tedious exposition.
>

Then he's a bad writer. If you wrote something like that on an exam
paper you'd lose marks for lack of a through explanation.

> That you choose to fill the gap with baseless assumptions of perversion
> says something about YOU, not the story.
>

No. The Zygons are an allegory to ISIS and Muslim immigrants being
radicalised. Why are they not an allegory to child molesters, perverts
and voyeurs as well?

>>>
>>> They might just have "gone to school" then spent all day
>>> titivating their polyps. If they kept to themselves, everyone would assume
>>> they were in another class.
>>
>> Were they someone else's kids they were impersonating. What did they do
>> with the real kids?
>>
> For those truly embedded under the treaty, their templates would be living
> elsewhere. Newcastle maybe - far enough away for paths not to cross. It's
> only the rebels subverting society who would be replacing their templates.
>

Where was that said or show in the actual episode? How come I don't
remember it.

[Agamemnon]

On 03/11/2015 09:29, Siri Cruz wrote:
> In article <d9raiq...@mid.individual.net>, Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> The Doctor should not be approaching kids he has no relation to.
>
> Why not? He shouldn't use force on children, or adults, without reason, which
> would include he shouldn't force children, or adults, to remain or respond. I
> see adults talking to children everytime I go by the park. Unless a child
> appeared to be distress I won't interfere.

The two girls looked distressed to me.

>
>> He didn't. He approached the undercover Zygon high command.
>
> Apparently it's a enforceable thoughtcrime to do anything any pervert would
> regard as perverted.
>

Thoughtcrime would be thinking the thought in the first place. Evidence
of doing would not be required for a conviction.

[Mike M]

Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> On 03/11/2015 08:46, Mike M wrote:
>> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:

>> Curse you Aggy for

>> putting me in the invidious position of defending this crappy episode!
>>
>
> You don't have to find reasons defend it. You can just agree with me.
>

Aggy, you are not the arbiter of good writing.
Most reasonable people wouldn't agree with you on what constitutes good
writing for TV.

>>> Were they someone else's kids they were impersonating. What did they do
>>> with the real kids?
>>>
>> For those truly embedded under the treaty, their templates would be living
>> elsewhere. Newcastle maybe - far enough away for paths not to cross. It's
>> only the rebels subverting society who would be replacing their templates.
>>
>
> Where was that said or show in the actual episode? How come I don't
> remember it.
>

It wasn't. It was implicit in the nature of an equitable treaty for the
situation proposed. A point by point detailed exposition of the terms of
the treaty would have been boring, would have dragged this episode even
further into tedium, and would have been of interest only to those with no
imagination of their own.

[The Doctor]

In article <031120151847521993%Your...@YourISP.com>,

:-(
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
If you believe everything you read, better not read. -Japanese proverb

[Pudentame]

They're disguised as little girls so the writer can have the scene
where invasion starts with the big blobby Zygon rebels dragging them
off screaming.

[Pudentame]

On Mon, 02 Nov 2015 16:18:15 -0700, Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In article <slrnn3fo6a.1b...@pjr.no-ip.org>,
> Peter J Ross <peadar...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> > The "New Mexico" set dressing felt unusually inauthentic and cheap. Do
>> > small NM towns often have narrow streets with low sidewalks, parking
>> > prevention bollards and closely spaced olde-worlde lampposts? And police
>> > stations with crumbling stucco walls and a temporary-looking placard above
>> > the door?
>>
>> Perhaps it was designed by the Kraal?
>>
>> We seem to have regressed from the great days when the set of The
>> Gunfighters looked quite convincing.
>
>One of the things about New Mexico not true about England is you don't have to
>go far to drop completely off the map. Since Zygon children can't always hold a
>body shape, it would be easy to set up an isolated community where their
>children could learn their craft without fear of detection. And completely off
>the map means even disappearing from the government.

The actual town of Truth or Consequences, NM is a bit larger than the
one shown in the episode, and it's a fairly busy place (being sort of
in between several fairly popular tourist destinations).

At a guess, I think they probably used the same town in the Canary
Islands that they used for Clara's meeting with Missy in The
Magician's Apprentice.

It would make sense in terms of budgets to get as much of the location
shooting for as many episodes as possible done while they had access
to the locations.

[Mike M]

I have no objection with the BBC using Tenerife to sub for New Mexico,
but it just didn't look at all right or realistic. They could have done
a better job on the "police station", found a street that looked less
euro-urban, etc.

[The Doctor]

In article <of5j3btncvnes71vc...@4ax.com>,

At least somewhere in Wales there could be something
that can act as a piece of North America.

[Siri Cruz]

In article <n1d444$6he$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
wrote:

> At least somewhere in Wales there could be something
> that can act as a piece of North America.

New Mexico is whole lot of desert with real mountains.

[suzeeq]

I read on other boards that they filmed it in Spain.

[suzeeq]

Not the desert pieces of N America....

[Siri Cruz]

At El Rancho Eastwood?

[Mike M]

It was apparently Fuerteventura which is one of the Canaries. I think they
filmed Planet of Fire there too, way back when.

The Canary Islands are considered part of Spain even though they're off the
coast of North Africa. One can refer to "Tenerife" for example as in either
Spain, or the Canaries.

Imagine if Martha's Vineyard was magically transported a few hundred miles
south to the Caribbean while remaining part of Mass.

[suzeeq]

Yes, I thought it may be part of Spain, but I know they've used parts on
the mainland for other western settings.

> Imagine if Martha's Vineyard was magically transported a few hundred miles
> south to the Caribbean while remaining part of Mass.

Heh, or even to another time. Try the S M Stirling novels... Island in
the Sea of time is the first one.

[Bill Jillians]

In message <of5j3btncvnes71vc...@4ax.com>, Pudentame
<no....@no.where.invalid> writes

Yes but it was different actors in both (or maybe the same) location. So
they still had to splash out on more than one air ticket.

--
Bill Jillians

Idlehands admits how dumb he is.
"Thank god we are as fucking stupid as the British, that is if the chicken
fucker and binky are any representation."

[Bill Jillians]

In message <n1da38$ki9$2...@news.albasani.net>, suzeeq <su...@imbris.com>
writes

Well where did they film the Matt Smith episode in the American West
that featured The Terminator?

[suzeeq]

Probably in Spain.

[Mike M]

A Town Called Mercy. Yes, it was largely filmed in Almeria which is where
many Westerns are made.

People complained about the Marshall's poor attempt at an American accent
in that one.

You know, the one who was played by Ben Browder (Farscape, Stargate SG-1),
an authentic good ole boy f'm Tennessee.

[suzeeq]

Well, some of them from that neck of the woods have a problem with
american accents....

[Bill Jillians]

In message <d9v24j...@mid.individual.net>, Mike M
<mi...@xenocyte.com> writes

That was never Ben Browder was it? He's changed a lot in 10 years.

[The Doctor]

In article <chine.bleu-0483C...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,

Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <n1d444$6he$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
>wrote:
>
>> At least somewhere in Wales there could be something
>> that can act as a piece of North America.
>
>New Mexico is whole lot of desert with real mountains.
>

And Wales?

>--
>:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
>'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
>God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
>cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline

[The Doctor]

Where? Spain?

[Siri Cruz]

Every country has its own Quebec.

[suzeeq]

The Doctor wrote:
> In article <chine.bleu-0483C...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
> Siri Cruz <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In article <n1d444$6he$1...@ns2.nl2k.ab.ca>, doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At least somewhere in Wales there could be something
>>> that can act as a piece of North America.
>> New Mexico is whole lot of desert with real mountains.
>>
>
> And Wales?

No desert.

[suzeeq]

Probably.

[Siri Cruz]

We don't know much, but we know it is humans who burnt the sky.

[Agamemnon]

On 03/11/2015 11:01, Mike M wrote:
> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> On 03/11/2015 08:46, Mike M wrote:
>>> Agamemnon <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>>> Curse you Aggy for
>>> putting me in the invidious position of defending this crappy episode!
>>>
>>
>> You don't have to find reasons defend it. You can just agree with me.
>>
>
> Aggy, you are not the arbiter of good writing.
> Most reasonable people wouldn't agree with you on what constitutes good
> writing for TV.

Yes they would. That's why most people don't watch TV any more. Modern
TV writers are amateurs. They're worse than the worst pulp fiction
writers. All they can do is go from one set piece scene to another with
no explanation as to what happened in between. Even the ancient
playwrights who thanks to the limitations of actors, stage and scenery
could only do set piece scenes gave you an explanation of what happened
off stage through the chorus or the characters talking about what passed
by with one another. Look at any American TV show in the same genre such
as Agents of SHIELD, Gotham, Star Trek TNG or Buffy and they all put new
Doctor Who to shame.

>
>>>> Were they someone else's kids they were impersonating. What did they do
>>>> with the real kids?
>>>>
>>> For those truly embedded under the treaty, their templates would be living
>>> elsewhere. Newcastle maybe - far enough away for paths not to cross. It's
>>> only the rebels subverting society who would be replacing their templates.
>>>
>>
>> Where was that said or show in the actual episode? How come I don't
>> remember it.
>>
>
> It wasn't. It was implicit in the nature of an equitable treaty for the
> situation proposed. A point by point detailed exposition of the terms of
> the treaty would have been boring, would have dragged this episode even
> further into tedium, and would have been of interest only to those with no
> imagination of their own.
>

This is not an issue of what the treaty says. It's an issue of
explaining where the Zygons got their human templates from and what they
have been doing with the originals. Since the issue is vital to setting
up the plot it needs an explanation, even just one line, otherwise it's
an example of very bad writing. Why doesn't anyone seem to be concreted
with the originals? If it's a plot element to be discovered later then
they need to express concern. If not then they need to explain where
they came from to allay an concern from the viewer.

[Pudentame]

The Canary Islands are owned by Spain, so that would technically be
true.

[Pudentame]

I don't remember "The Terminator" being in a Matt Smith episode, but
The Impossible Astronaut scenes featuring Monument Valley in the
background were filmed in southeastern Utah, near Mexican Hat.

And Lone Rock Beach on Lake Powell substituted for "Lake Silencio"

If you ever get to that part of Utah, check out the Moki Dugway.

[J. Clarke]

In article <d9v24j...@mid.individual.net>, mi...@xenocyte.com says...

I remember some show or other where there were complaints about the
"horrible imitation British accent" of a member of the House of Windsor.

This sort of thing is generally evidence that the person complaining
doesn't get out much.

[Your Name]

In article <MPG.30a8eda93...@news.eternal-september.org>, J.

The faked / overdone Australian accent in The Librarians is
*A**W**F**U**L*!!

[¡Gölök Z.L.F Buday AKA The Black Jester #theblackjester]

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:06:37 +0000, in rec.arts.drwho Mike M <mi...@xenocyte.com> wrote:

ĄStream of consciousness gibberish incoming
Ą...
ĄT
ĄR
ĄU
ĄT
ĄH
Ą.
ĄO
ĄR
Ą.
ĄC
ĄO
ĄN
ĄS
ĄE
ĄQ
ĄU
ĄE
ĄN
ĄC
ĄE
ĄS
Ą
ĄNo, not mine. The director's (or possibly the writer's). I'd been quite
Ąlooking forward to this one. UNIT, Osgood (somehow) and a sequel to _The
ĄDay of the Doctor_ that would pick up on the outcomes from that story's big
ĄB-plot. What's not to like?
Ą
ĄAs it turns out, everything. Flaccid pacing, phoned in performances from
ĄEVERYONE other than Peter Capaldi, a complete waste of a reasonable (for
ĄDoctor Who) premise, waste of good guest stars (Rebecca Front is MUCH
Ąbetter than that); bad continuity and logic within the episode, pissing on
Ąthe memory of a former companion and famed Whovian, long dead; forced set
Ąups and unbelievable stupidity from all characters.
Ą
ĄFrom the top: a good recap of the salient points of the 50th anniversary
Ąstory about and an immediate answer (sort of) to the Osgood problem (she
Ąwas killed off in _Death in Heaven_). We see that the survivor is the human
Ąone (not using the Doctor's logic from later in the episode; just based on
Ąthe fact that the surviving Osgood NEEDS her inhaler under stress.)
Ą
ĄCut to the Doctor interrogating little girls in the playground. Not to come
Ąover all Agamemnon, but he should have been challenged by any other adult
Ąaround: an older man in sunglasses accosting young children? Is this
Ąsuddenly socially acceptable?
Ą
ĄCut to UNIT, unaccountably banished from their Tower of London HQ to some
Ąrundown old office block, explaining how they have lost track of 20,000,000
Ąrefugees because one person had sole custody of the data. Ugh.
Ą
ĄCut to Clara, who despite apparently missing 128 calls (wouldn't that take
Ąwell over an hour of near continuous redials?) doesn't immediately stop and
Ądeal with that as a priority but instead handles the problems of a small
Ąboy who stops her on the stairs. I would have been much happier with this
Ątrap if the boy hadn't then been brought in screaming, indicating that HE
ĄWASN'T PART OF THE SETUP. Say what?
Ą
ĄAnd this rubbish goes on and on. The secret base in "Turmezistan" - what,
Ąis this just to underline the heavy handed Islamist allegory here? It looks
Ąlike an English village. The war room chart is of the British Isles. So why
Ąisn't this camp in Caithness again? It would have made much more sense.
ĄSetting _Before the Flood_ in, say, 2025 and using the same location here
Ąwould have made even more sense and been cleverly recursive.
Ą
ĄAnd the Zygons install teleports in every elevator in London and then walk
Ąhalfway round the world through tunnels? Really?
Ą
ĄThey can now replicate someone well enough to fool family members just by
Ąlooking into their minds, and yet they still keep thousands of people on
Ąice in pods WHY? Not to mention, this telepathic representation can
Ąapparently work via a remote drone camera, detecting the right operator and
Ącopying her husband and son.
Ą
ĄMind you, that same power is not good enough for a "mother" to be able to
Ąpluck her son's birthday from his mind. No, wait: it's SO good that
Ą"Clara" can step away from her template, call the Doctor, and begin the
Ąconversation with "Did you just call yourself Dr. Disco?". Way to go, Mr
ĄConsistency.
Ą
ĄThe "New Mexico" set dressing felt unusually inauthentic and cheap. Do
Ąsmall NM towns often have narrow streets with low sidewalks, parking
Ąprevention bollards and closely spaced olde-worlde lampposts? And police
Ąstations with crumbling stucco walls and a temporary-looking placard above
Ąthe door?
Ą
ĄAnd has Kate Stewart been taking Stupid pills, to wander round a completely
Ądeserted town for hours accompanied by one unexplained "survivor" without
Ąbeing uncannily suspicious?
Ą
ĄFinally (I could go on but enough already) "I do like poncing about in a
Ąbig plane". You have a bloody TARDIS, Doctor. The ONLY reason for the plane
Ąis so it can be shot at. Gah.
Ą
ĄVirtually unmitigated garbage from end to end, apart from a few good Doctor
Ącharacter moments. (And for those of you hating the guitar; it's ENTIRELY
ĄIN KEEPING. It's better than the recorder, better than crooning Venusian
Ąlullabies, and much, much, MUCH better than the spoons - to mention just
Ąthree previous "musical" Doctors).
Ą
Ą2/10. And the only reason I'm looking forward to next week is that it will
Ądraw a shroud over this whole shabby disaster.
Ą
Ą--
Ą"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't
Ąimportant."

Spoons are classic Blue Grass.
The Flute or Recorder is a fine classic.
The thing about the Guitar is it was a half way change, not a mild one
like the crimson scarf. Still in with the basic style. The Guitar has become
more referenced than Venusian Lalabies, Spoons, and Recorder though.
Those were rare gags and mentions. This may be too, eh....it's a bit pandering.
Beat Box is an anacronysm. No life were the modern muzak liked.
He almost went Gilbert and Sullivan, thank heavens he recovered (6th).