Supergirl after 5 eps. Henshaw = MM? And Does Cat know Kara = SG?

[KalElFan]

Like the show and expect to keep watching as long as
they make it. My one criticism so far is the angst level
being higher than I'd like. Kara's had angst at home,
at CatCo, performing as Supergirl, problems with her
love life... the balance needs to shift and hopefully it's
started to.

A Google search brings up lots of Hank Henshaw =
Martian Manhunter speculation. I think it'd be great
and I think it makes sense. MM was the 7th original
Justice Leaguer and the only available one not in the
movies (where they've cast Cyborg but not MM). So
MM's available. The description of Red Tornado as
a Cyborg (it's in another upcoming Supergirl ep) also
suggests Hank isn't Cyborg. His red eyes are also
consistent with MM as much or more than Cyborg.
The already-started backstory could easily explain
it, so I'm rooting for it.

Cat's actually become a very interesting / human
character, not at all the one-note it appeared that
she might be. When she had the interview with
Supergirl, the first thing she said was "it's you"
as she floated above her. My first thought was
that Cat knew for sure, at that moment, that it
was Kara. We'll see...

[David Johnston]

On 11/24/2015 7:02 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> Like the show and expect to keep watching as long as
> they make it. My one criticism so far is the angst level
> being higher than I'd like. Kara's had angst at home,
> at CatCo, performing as Supergirl, problems with her
> love life... the balance needs to shift and hopefully it's
> started to.
>
> A Google search brings up lots of Hank Henshaw =
> Martian Manhunter speculation. I think it'd be great
> and I think it makes sense. MM was the 7th original
> Justice Leaguer and the only available one not in the
> movies (where they've cast Cyborg but not MM). So
> MM's available. The description of Red Tornado as
> a Cyborg (it's in another upcoming Supergirl ep) also
> suggests Hank isn't Cyborg. His red eyes are also
> consistent with MM as much or more than Cyborg.
> The already-started backstory could easily explain
> it, so I'm rooting for it.

Uh-hunh. You do know that Hank Henshaw is already a character in the
comic books who has super powers, right?

[Dave Van Domelen]

Actually, given that they've basically taken late 80s Lex Luthor and
renamed him Maxwell Lord (largely ignoring Max's comics version), it's
actually plausible they'd pull another cut-and-paste and put Hank Henshaw's
name on their Martian Manhunter version.

Dave Van Domelen, or maybe he's a more clever Kryptonian criminal in
this version.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:n336ai$85g$1...@dont-email.me...

He's not just "a character," he's a cyborg, hence the above
paragraph suggesting MM makes more sense. I doubt DC
wants another cyborg floating around in DC live action
media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg_Superman#Hank_Henshaw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Henshaw

"... he was reintroduced as the original Cyborg Superman during
the Reign of the Supermen storyline following Superman's death

"At times, he is also referred to as The Cyborg (not to be
confused with Teen Titans member Victor Stone aka Cyborg)."

"Red Tornado" in the upcoming ep was also a Justice League
member at one point, see this first paragraph here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League#Satellite_years

I think Good Cyborg / Bad Cyborg / Original Cyborg / Red
Cyborg confusion is asking for trouble, and it seems less
likely to me he's a cyborg character than it did when "Hank
Henshaw" was first announced.

The revelation in Ep 5 (shown in ep 4) suggests to me that
the backstory will probably depict "Hank Henshaw" getting
killed off. He was a bad guy then. The Dean Cain character
and other DEO good guys probably took him out, perhaps
with help from MM who could have swatted him like a gnat.
But they kept his cover, easy to do with MM's ability to
shape-shift, because maybe old Hank was working for
some bad higher ups.

[David Johnston]

Red Tornado isn't a cyborg. He's just a robot. And it's highly
unlikely that Henshaw will be confused on the TV series with a character
who isn't in the TV series, particularly since Henshaw's actual power
(in the comics) does not come from being a cyborg and the TV version may
never use them in the way his comic book counterpart did to become one.

And I don't find it particularly plausible that the Martian Manhunter
would be initially opposed to Supergirl becoming a superheroine because
she's an alien and he doesn't trust aliens.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3539g$36e$1...@dont-email.me>,

Red Tornado is imminent:
http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w655-h502-q90-c655:502/wp-content/uploads/Su
pergirl-Kara-punching-Red-Tornado.jpg

>
> And I don't find it particularly plausible that the Martian Manhunter
> would be initially opposed to Supergirl becoming a superheroine because
> she's an alien and he doesn't trust aliens.

--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.

[David Johnston]

Yes, sorry I didn't make it clear that that after dismissing Red Tornado
as "not a cyborg" I was moving on to talk about Vic Stone.

[shawn]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:50:24 -0700, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

It makes sense if the rest of the people in the DEO don't know that
he's really the Martian Manhunter. In any case it does seem like no
one else knows what he is. So pretending to dislike aliens fits in
with his role watching over and catching aliens that try to harm
people.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <9gkc5b9ohs6t5gurh...@4ax.com>,

I don't get any part of the Manhunter argument. What exactly has
Henshaw done that says 'Manhunter' more than 'Cyborg Superman'? Red
eyes? Henshaw had red glowing eyes in the comics:

http://herocollector.com/uploads/article/cyborgsuperman.jpg

[A Friend]

In article <anim8rfsk-13E51...@news.easynews.com>,

Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good guy
with a secret. Henshaw, in the comics, was Superman's deadliest enemy,
and was also the guy who killed seven million people in Coast City.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Henshaw is, or will become, the
Cyborg Superman, but I think he's J'onn in shape-shifted disguise. I
also think it's very possible that Superman knows J'onn and trusts him
with Kara. It would fit Superman's pattern of surrounding Kara with
trustworthy people, e.g. Olsen.

Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years, and Pa Danvers was
working for him before that. It just seems impossible to me that
Superman wouldn't have had vetted Henshaw at that time, if he hadn't
already.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,

Agreed.

>
> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,

Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.

and Pa Danvers was
> working for him before that. It just seems impossible to me that
> Superman wouldn't have had vetted Henshaw at that time, if he hadn't
> already.

Pa Danvers (I like that!) was forced to work for Henshaw and died in the
process. That Henshaw definitely wasn't a good guy.

[David Johnston]

Alien hunting is dangerous work.

[KalElFan]

"A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...

> Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
> guy with a secret.

Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,
by first threatening to take one of the daughters. He's a despicable
bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.

This is why the MM scenario works NOW. The Despicable Bastard
Hank Henshaw was offed in the backstory, and MM shape-shifted
into him.

> Henshaw, in the comics, was Superman's deadliest enemy,
> and was also the guy who killed seven million people in Coast
> City.

Luthor, Brainiac, etc. might take issue with that "deadliest enemy"
part, but killing seven million is another reason it wouldn't fit the
Supergirl version. HH probably managed to kill some people but
was outed and quickly taken out.

> I'm not ruling out the possibility that Henshaw is, or will become,
> the Cyborg Superman, but I think he's J'onn in shape-shifted
> disguise.

Don't see that first part. Logistically, the only good way that the
writers can work it is the way they've set it up -- revealing what
happened via the DEO backstory. There's no good reason why
MM would just decide to adopt the name Hank Henshaw unless
there WAS a Hank Henshaw, the Despicable Bastard past tense.

> I also think it's very possible that Superman knows J'onn and
> trusts him with Kara. It would fit Superman's pattern of
> surrounding Kara with trustworthy people, e.g. Olsen.

Replace "it's very possible" with "it must be true" and you're
spot on. Again, there are only so many ways/reasons that MM
ends up where he is, but they're making us wait for the full
backstory to play out this season.

> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years, and
> Pa Danvers was working for him before that. It just seems
> impossible to me that Superman wouldn't have had vetted
> Henshaw at that time, if he hadn't already.

Bingo, in the sense that the DEO and Superman and the lot
of them are Super Dunces if it ever took them THIS long to
still not have figured it out. They found out long ago, and I
think Pa Danvers is still alive. We'll get the scoop on why
he felt he had to stay away from Kara, Alex and Mom, but
Kryptonian bad guys led by Kara's evil twin Auntie may
have been part of it.

[KalElFan]

On rec.arts.sf.tv, "Jack Bohn" wrote in message
news:6d2d1da4-4b27-4dc2...@googlegroups.com...

> I don't suppose there's a breakdown of the characters CBS bought
> for the show, like the Spider-Man/Fantastic Four/X-Men/rest of the
> universe split for Marvel. I'm guessing they've pushed Superman's
> involvement as far as they're allowed.

They just announced a young Clark Kent, circa 13 years old, in the
backstory. It's planned for episode 13, I think. I'm assuming Kal
learns about his backstory. I'm also expecting the Danvers become
a bigger part of the Kent circle (or are revealed to have been for
some time prior) leading them to adopt Kara later.

This paragraph is mainly for Johnston, but also for anyone else
fixated on Robot / Android / Cyborg distinctions re Red Tornado.
The blurb for next week (appearing everywhere!) specifically
describes Red Tornado as a military *******cyborg*******
/slam dunk off.

(For anyone else who cares about the Smallville Season 11 comic,
a female Red Tornado was apparently also a cyborg there, but
the official, you know, Supergirl blurb should be enough for
everyone... except Johnston who'll be arguing this forever
because it's what he does).

Getting back to your "characters CBS bought" I think it's pretty
standard that the movies get first rights. Maybe they let *the*
Hank Henshaw, Cyborg, through the cracks, but I think it's more
likely they didn't -- i.e., they let him die in the backstory but MM
is what CBS bought, or should have bought. If they didn't, we
may be looking at some future blurb like:

"Good Cyborg / Bad Cyborg / Original Cyborg / Red Cyborg /
Movie Justice League Cyborg / Terminator and the Six Billion
Dollar Man and Woman and Girl Cyborg crossovers, brought
to you as part of the Cyborgapalooza and Cyborg Apocalypse
festival on the CBS streaming network next season, just after
the new Star Trek, and after Supergirl as we know it has been
canned."

[Super-Menace]

In article <anim8rfsk-8F3B0...@news.easynews.com>,

anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

> Pa Danvers (I like that!) was forced to work for Henshaw and died in the
> process. That Henshaw definitely wasn't a good guy.

I can't reconcile Henshaw's attempted arrest of the recently arrived
Kara with him being a good guy, unless his true intent was to force Pa
Danvers into giving up his research on Superman ... and if Henshaw were
a bad guy, then why wouldn't he take both the research *and* Kara?

I really don't think Pa Danvers is dead but, if he is, I haven't seen
anything to indicate it was Henshaw's fault.

[Super-Menace]

In article <dbo7qj...@mid.individual.net>, KalElFan

<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

> "A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...
>
> > Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
> > guy with a secret.
>
> Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
> away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,
> by first threatening to take one of the daughters. He's a despicable
> bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.
>
> This is why the MM scenario works NOW. The Despicable Bastard
> Hank Henshaw was offed in the backstory, and MM shape-shifted
> into him.

Maybe. It makes sense, and it'd be a great twist.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <261120150937352992%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,

If Pa Danvers is dead, he died because he was working for the DOE, which
he was forced to do by Henshaw. There's no way that whatever happened
*isn't* Henshaw's fault.

[Super-Menace]

In article <anim8rfsk-FE761...@news.easynews.com>,

You have a very good point.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <261120151229528963%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,

Super-Menace <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote:

> In article <anim8rfsk-FE761...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <261120150937352992%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,
> > Super-Menace <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <anim8rfsk-8F3B0...@news.easynews.com>,
> > > anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Pa Danvers (I like that!) was forced to work for Henshaw and died in
> > > > the
> > > > process. That Henshaw definitely wasn't a good guy.
> > >
> > >
> > > I can't reconcile Henshaw's attempted arrest of the recently arrived
> > > Kara with him being a good guy, unless his true intent was to force Pa
> > > Danvers into giving up his research on Superman ... and if Henshaw were
> > > a bad guy, then why wouldn't he take both the research *and* Kara?
> > >
> > > I really don't think Pa Danvers is dead but, if he is, I haven't seen
> > > anything to indicate it was Henshaw's fault.
> >
> > If Pa Danvers is dead, he died because he was working for the DOE, which
> > he was forced to do by Henshaw. There's no way that whatever happened
> > *isn't* Henshaw's fault.
>
>
> You have a very good point.

TY. BTW, I agree that there's no way Pa is dead.

[David Johnston]

On 11/26/2015 4:12 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> "A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...
>
>> Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
>> guy with a secret.
>
> Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
> away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,

> by first threatening to take one of the daughters.He's a despicable

> bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.

Threatening to take in Supergirl is nothing the current Hank Henshaw
wouldn't do.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:n37kk1$lvo$4...@dont-email.me...

> On 11/26/2015 4:12 AM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> "A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...
>>
>>> Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
>>> guy with a secret.
>>
>> Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
>> away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,

>> by first threatening to take one of the daughters. He's a despicable

>> bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.
>
> Threatening to take in Supergirl is nothing the current Hank Henshaw
> wouldn't do.

He's already got her working for him and there's no indication that he's
anything but a good guy. In the backstory, she wasn't even Supergirl.
She was a minor and he was threatening to kidnap her, permanently.

There's just no comparison, and even if there was the writers would
still be faced with Supes and everyone DEO being idiots for never
having figured him out.

"Hank" (if evil) has been stupid enough to turn his head and give
Supergirl the red eyes as he was saving her life. It makes no sense.

If he's MM, it'd make perfect sense because he knows he'll soon
be outing himself to Kara and Alex, with Superman's agreement.

It doesn't mean we won't get the stupid version, but it'll just be
another nail in the show's coffin, on CBS at least. In what way can
evil Hank Henshaw last 10 seconds as a serious villain?

The show has tanked in the ratings and is unlikely to ever get
the viewers that it's lost back. I attribute it mostly to the very
angsty start, but it may be that they have nothing much left
in the tank.

Normally, bringing in Benoist's real-life recent husband from
Glee, to play Kara's love interest, would be a terrible sign on
its own. It turns the show into reality TV fodder. But they do
need viewers and maybe it'll get them some, as well as nuke
the romantic triangles or quadrangles for a while. Bringing in
Clark at 13 smacks of Smallville, but again they need viewers.
The rumored crossover with Flash / The CW, same thing, but
these are all stunts.

Long-term, they need to focus more on mythology like the Fort
Rozz, evil Auntie, Krypton backstory, even the MM / Mars
backstory because it's local. The Cat character is working out
well, the Danvers same thing but we've seen very little of the
Dean Cain character's backstory.

CBS hasn't even given the show the back 9 yet, and it's looking
more like Supergirl is headed for The CW if it's to end up
anywhere.

[David Johnston]

On 11/27/2015 12:32 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> "David Johnston" wrote in message news:n37kk1$lvo$4...@dont-email.me...
>> On 11/26/2015 4:12 AM, KalElFan wrote:
>>
>>> "A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...
>>>
>>>> Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
>>>> guy with a secret.
>>>
>>> Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
>>> away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,
>>> by first threatening to take one of the daughters. He's a despicable
>>> bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.
>>
>> Threatening to take in Supergirl is nothing the current Hank Henshaw
>> wouldn't do.
>
> He's already got her working for him and there's no indication that he's

> anything but a good guy.In the backstory, she wasn't even Supergirl.

> She was a minor and he was threatening to kidnap her, permanently.

She was an illegal alien and he was threatening to intern her...same as
he's doing with all the other aliens he can catch.

>
> There's just no comparison, and even if there was the writers would
> still be faced with Supes and everyone DEO being idiots for never
> having figured him out.
>
> "Hank" (if evil) has been stupid enough to turn his head and give
> Supergirl the red eyes as he was saving her life. It makes no sense.

Did she see them?

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3978q$j73$1...@dont-email.me>,

Yes, but she was all groggy.

[BTR1701]

In article <n3978q$j73$1...@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> On 11/27/2015 12:32 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> > "David Johnston" wrote in message news:n37kk1$lvo$4...@dont-email.me...
> >> On 11/26/2015 4:12 AM, KalElFan wrote:
> >>
> >>> "A Friend" wrote in message news:251120152219419647%no...@noway.com...
> >>>
> >>>> Henshaw, in the show, has been shown (at least so far) as a good
> >>>> guy with a secret.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, except not in the backstory where he effectively ripped a dad
> >>> away from his two daughters to obtain information on Superman,
> >>> by first threatening to take one of the daughters. He's a despicable
> >>> bastard in that backstory, i.e. he *WAS* Hank Henshaw back then.
> >>
> >> Threatening to take in Supergirl is nothing the current Hank Henshaw
> >> wouldn't do.
> >
> > He's already got her working for him and there's no indication that he's
> > anything but a good guy.In the backstory, she wasn't even Supergirl.
> > She was a minor and he was threatening to kidnap her, permanently.
>
> She was an illegal alien and he was threatening to intern her...same as
> he's doing with all the other aliens he can catch.

If she's an illegal alien, then she should be completely hands off, and
any government action that impedes, inconveniences, or in any way
negatively impacts her should be prohibited.

Being an illegal is the best status she could possibly have.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

"KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

> The show has tanked in the ratings and is unlikely to ever get
> the viewers that it's lost back. I attribute it mostly to the very
> angsty start, but it may be that they have nothing much left
> in the tank.

The reasons I gave up on it:

1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept. The idea that a
superhero (especially a woman) can’t function without a huge agency (or
two, if you count the work setup) to back them up doesn’t really fit
the mythos.

2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great. Seems like just about
anyone with moderately advanced tech can knock her around. I don’t
know if any of this is essentially canon for the Supergirl universe
(or any one of them, assuming she has “ages” like other superheroes), but
as a viewer it makes me less interested in seeing the lackluster story
line that are the result of that sort of convenience in world building.

3) It seems like everyone and their mother knows who she is. I’m not
sure what the point of having a secret identity is if it’s such a poorly
kept secret. I guess the same applies to Clark Kent in this depiction.

4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen. It makes zero sense for the
person with super powers to drool over someone they could kill when
things get steamy. They wrote the dynamic as a boy-girl cliche rather
than respecting the reality of a world where super powers exist that
make the girl *far* superior to the boy.

> Long-term, they need to focus more on mythology like the Fort
> Rozz, evil Auntie, Krypton backstory, even the MM / Mars
> backstory because it's local. The Cat character is working out
> well, the Danvers same thing but we've seen very little of the
> Dean Cain character's backstory.

Again, I don’t know any of the existing Supergirl universe(s). I
just know what elements make for compelling story telling. What I’ve
seen from the show is not it. There would have to be some *major*
rewriting of what has been established to make the show watchable in
the future.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

[BTR1701]

In article <n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me>,

Doc O'Leary <drol...@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that
> "KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The show has tanked in the ratings and is unlikely to ever get
> > the viewers that it's lost back. I attribute it mostly to the very
> > angsty start, but it may be that they have nothing much left
> > in the tank.
>
> The reasons I gave up on it:
>
> 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept. The idea that a
> superhero (especially a woman) can’t function without a huge agency (or
> two, if you count the work setup) to back them up doesn’t really fit
> the mythos.
>
> 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great. Seems like just about
> anyone with moderately advanced tech can knock her around.

This is my biggest gripe. It's like they got confused and made Spider
Girl instead of Supergirl.

Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
yellow-sun rehab machine.

Her speed has also been greatly reduced compared to the rest of the
Superman/Kryptonian mythos. Given one minute left on the bomb's timer,
Superman would have had it in the middle of the Pacific (or on the moon)
with 45 seconds to spare, yet Kara can barely get it to Catalina.

Same with her strength. Superman is strong enough to literally move the
tectonic plates and shift entire continents. Yet Supergirl struggles to
hold up part of a building?

She seems to have the same relative strength as Spider Man in this
show-- more than a normal human, but not anywhere near what she should
have for a Kryptonian.

(And they're not even being internally consistent with her strength. In
the first episode, she lifts and flies an a fully-loaded 747, but in
this episode, she's straining to hold up a concrete beam.)

> 4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen. It makes zero sense for the
> person with super powers to drool over someone they could kill when
> things get steamy.

Yes, the whole Melrose Place aspect of the show is getting hard to
stomach, but I don't see why she wouldn't be able to have sex with a guy
without killing him. Obviously Kryptonians can modulate their powers
when interacting with people, otherwise every handshake or other casual
encounter would result in maimed bodies and corpses wherever they go.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <atropos-2337C4...@news.giganews.com>,

BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:

> In article <n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Doc O'Leary <drol...@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>
> > For your reference, records indicate that
> > "KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The show has tanked in the ratings and is unlikely to ever get
> > > the viewers that it's lost back. I attribute it mostly to the very
> > > angsty start, but it may be that they have nothing much left
> > > in the tank.
> >
> > The reasons I gave up on it:
> >
> > 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept. The idea that a
> > superhero (especially a woman) can’t function without a huge agency (or
> > two, if you count the work setup) to back them up doesn’t really fit
> > the mythos.
> >
> > 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great. Seems like just about
> > anyone with moderately advanced tech can knock her around.
>
> This is my biggest gripe. It's like they got confused and made Spider
> Girl instead of Supergirl.
>
> Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
> last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
> yellow-sun rehab machine.

That was right out of the George Reeves ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN.

>
> Her speed has also been greatly reduced compared to the rest of the
> Superman/Kryptonian mythos. Given one minute left on the bomb's timer,
> Superman would have had it in the middle of the Pacific (or on the moon)
> with 45 seconds to spare, yet Kara can barely get it to Catalina.

She has doubled her speed in the last couple of weeks though.

>
> Same with her strength. Superman is strong enough to literally move the
> tectonic plates and shift entire continents. Yet Supergirl struggles to
> hold up part of a building?

My question is, why does her blue vision fix the concrete columns? What
did she possibly do?

>
> She seems to have the same relative strength as Spider Man in this
> show-- more than a normal human, but not anywhere near what she should
> have for a Kryptonian.
>
> (And they're not even being internally consistent with her strength. In
> the first episode, she lifts and flies an a fully-loaded 747, but in
> this episode, she's straining to hold up a concrete beam.)
>
> > 4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen. It makes zero sense for the
> > person with super powers to drool over someone they could kill when
> > things get steamy.
>
> Yes, the whole Melrose Place aspect of the show is getting hard to
> stomach, but I don't see why she wouldn't be able to have sex with a guy
> without killing him. Obviously Kryptonians can modulate their powers
> when interacting with people, otherwise every handshake or other casual
> encounter would result in maimed bodies and corpses wherever they go.

[BTR1701]

In article <anim8rfsk-AE9AE...@news.easynews.com>,

I assumed she was "welding" the metal rebar that reinforces the
concrete, but I have no idea why melting the metal would somehow make it
stronger.

[David Johnston]

And I'm sure the 420,000 illegal aliens arrested during 2013 are most
impressed with your analysis.

[A Friend]

In article <atropos-2337C4...@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atr...@mac.com> wrote:

> Other than Kryptonite, [Supergirl] should be invincible. No way that

> bomb in the last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone
> put her into a yellow-sun rehab machine.
>
> Her speed has also been greatly reduced compared to the rest of the
> Superman/Kryptonian mythos. Given one minute left on the bomb's timer,
> Superman would have had it in the middle of the Pacific (or on the moon)
> with 45 seconds to spare, yet Kara can barely get it to Catalina.
>
> Same with her strength. Superman is strong enough to literally move the
> tectonic plates and shift entire continents. Yet Supergirl struggles to
> hold up part of a building?

I have a real problem with what's been going on here. The audience has
certain expectation of what a Kryptonian can do, how tough he or she
is, and so on. This show routinely violates those expectations. Kara
should have shrugged off that stupid little bomb. Instead, she's sent
plummeting into the ocean, and the DEO is said to have rescued her just
before she drowns. Drowns?

It's not necessary for this show to bestow the godlike powers of the
Silver Age comics on Kal and Kara, but Kara's fragility here is
ridiculous. At least try to explain it, for crissakes. Say she hasn't
ben in Earth as long as Superman has, so she's still charging up under
the yellow sun. Say she still needs to get over the effects of all the
kryptonite she was surrounded with in the Phantom Zone. Give me some
expectation that, when Kara is as old as Superman, she'll be as
powerful as he is now.

The show is creating crises by hobbling Kara, instead of creating
crises that would challenge a Kryptonian.

[David Johnston]

On 11/27/2015 12:54 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <anim8rfsk-AE9AE...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <atropos-2337C4...@news.giganews.com>,
>> BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Doc O'Leary <drol...@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> "KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The show has tanked in the ratings and is unlikely to ever get
>>>>> the viewers that it's lost back. I attribute it mostly to the very
>>>>> angsty start, but it may be that they have nothing much left
>>>>> in the tank.
>>>>
>>>> The reasons I gave up on it:
>>>>
>>>> 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept. The idea that a

>>>> superhero (especially a woman) can’t function without a huge agency (or
>>>> two, if you count the work setup) to back them up doesn’t really fit
>>>> the mythos.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great. Seems like just about

>>>> anyone with moderately advanced tech can knock her around.
>>>
>>> This is my biggest gripe. It's like they got confused and made Spider
>>> Girl instead of Supergirl.
>>>
>>> Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
>>> last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
>>> yellow-sun rehab machine.
>>
>> That was right out of the George Reeves ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN.
>>>
>>> Her speed has also been greatly reduced compared to the rest of the
>>> Superman/Kryptonian mythos. Given one minute left on the bomb's timer,
>>> Superman would have had it in the middle of the Pacific (or on the moon)
>>> with 45 seconds to spare, yet Kara can barely get it to Catalina.
>>
>> She has doubled her speed in the last couple of weeks though.
>>>
>>> Same with her strength. Superman is strong enough to literally move the
>>> tectonic plates and shift entire continents. Yet Supergirl struggles to
>>> hold up part of a building?
>>
>> My question is, why does her blue vision fix the concrete columns? What
>> did she possibly do?
>
> I assumed she was "welding" the metal rebar that reinforces the
> concrete, but I have no idea why melting the metal would somehow make it
> stronger.
>

The idea was the the explosion broke the rebar and she was welding it
back together and holding it in place until it cooled again. It's a
standard Superman trick.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 11/27/2015 10:12 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>
> 4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen. It makes zero sense for the
> person with super powers to drool over someone they could kill when
> things get steamy. They wrote the dynamic as a boy-girl cliche rather
> than respecting the reality of a world where super powers exist that
> make the girl *far* superior to the boy.
>

You may want to look up an essay by Larry Niven titled "Man of Steel,
Woman of Kleenex". ;)

--
Even Confucius complained about the younger generation's music.

[Super-Menace]

In article <5658c743$0$1715$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional

Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 11/27/2015 10:12 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > 4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen. It makes zero sense for the
> > person with super powers to drool over someone they could kill when
> > things get steamy. They wrote the dynamic as a boy-girl cliche rather
> > than respecting the reality of a world where super powers exist that
> > make the girl *far* superior to the boy.
> >
> You may want to look up an essay by Larry Niven titled "Man of Steel,
> Woman of Kleenex". ;)

Oh, not *that* again.

[Dimensional Traveler]

This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow? (In the comics,
it usually involves making Superman into a Super Dick.)

[David Johnston]

On 11/27/2015 1:30 PM, A Friend wrote:
> In article <atropos-2337C4...@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701
> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Other than Kryptonite, [Supergirl] should be invincible. No way that
>> bomb in the last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone
>> put her into a yellow-sun rehab machine.
>>
>> Her speed has also been greatly reduced compared to the rest of the
>> Superman/Kryptonian mythos. Given one minute left on the bomb's timer,
>> Superman would have had it in the middle of the Pacific (or on the moon)
>> with 45 seconds to spare, yet Kara can barely get it to Catalina.
>>
>> Same with her strength. Superman is strong enough to literally move the
>> tectonic plates and shift entire continents. Yet Supergirl struggles to
>> hold up part of a building?
>
>
> I have a real problem with what's been going on here. The audience has
> certain expectation of what a Kryptonian can do, how tough he or she
> is, and so on. This show routinely violates those expectations. Kara
> should have shrugged off that stupid little bomb.

I dunno. I don't really have a problem with Superman getting hurt by a
pointblank encounter with a bomb that is functionally a nuclear weapon
and Supergirl is less powerful because she hasn't been here as long.
She's basically as powerful as he was, when he was 13.

[BTR1701]

In article <n3aeag$ea5$1...@dont-email.me>,

Arrested, then released with a "promise" to appear at a hearing, which
no one believes they will actually do, and which they overwhelmingly do
not.

You guys always conveniently leave out that second part.

[BTR1701]

In article <n3aho0$r3b$1...@dont-email.me>,

Zod and crew had barely arrived and they were as powerful as Clark, who
had been here for decades.

[Super-Menace]

In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional

Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?

You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.

Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb, much less drown
when she fell into the ocean. I can hear them now: "But it's more
dramatic that way!"

They need to vet these scripts. Seriously.

[Super-Menace]

In article <atropos-5F287D...@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701

They were old-school Kryptonians, whose powers switched fully on as
soon as they were within the influence of a yellow sun. The Byrne
reboot in 1985 had Clark's powers develop slowly, over years. A little
later, Clark didn't have any powers at all until he was in his late
teens.

[Michael Black]

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015, Super-Menace wrote:

> In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
>> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>
>
> You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
> number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
> problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
>

You can also let some prisoners out of the Phantom Zone, so you get people
equal to Superman. Except then they start tossing things and themselves
around, and it's back to "levelling the city".

Michael

[David Johnston]

They release the ones who are excess to capacity. But they can keep
anyone they want to.

[David Johnston]

On 11/27/2015 3:20 PM, Super-Menace wrote:
> In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
>> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>
>
> You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
> number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
> problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
>
> Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb,

Given that Supergirl "should not have been harmed by that bomb"...how
would anything Luthor ever did be a credible challenge? Heck Doomsday
was never a credible challenge. Doomsday shows up? Throw him into
space. Problem solved.

[David Johnston]

On 11/27/2015 3:29 PM, Michael Black wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2015, Super-Menace wrote:
>
>> In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
>> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
>>> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
>>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>>
>>
>> You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
>> number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
>> problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
>>
> You can also let some prisoners out of the Phantom Zone, so you get
> people equal to Superman. Except then they start tossing things and
> themselves around, and it's back to "levelling the city".
>

And given that this bomb was capable of leveling the core of the city,
obviously leveling the city isn't good enough. If the Earth is still
around after the fight, you haven't challenged Superman.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3ampr$e52$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sigh. Yeah. Why do you possibly get close enough for Doomsday to touch
you? And how many people like Green Lantern are there that can toss him
into space without touching him? Plus, originally, Doomsday couldn't
even FLY, until Louise Simonson screwed up her script.

[Dimensional Traveler]

You must be new here, we've been snarking on that kind of story
stupidity for _DECADES_.

[Super-Menace]

In article <56593733$0$1660$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional

Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 11/27/2015 2:20 PM, Super-Menace wrote:
> > In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> > Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
> >> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
> >> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
> >> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
> >
> >
> > You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
> > number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
> > problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
> >
> > Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb, much less drown
> > when she fell into the ocean. I can hear them now: "But it's more
> > dramatic that way!"
> >
> > They need to vet these scripts. Seriously.
> >
> You must be new here, we've been snarking on that kind of story
> stupidity for _DECADES_.

Given the budget and this kind of talent, I expect a series with a high
degree of internal consistency. The mention of Supergirl possibly
drowning after the explosion bothered me a lot more than her being
harmed by the explosion itself.

I've been reading DC since 1959 and saw ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN in
first-run, so I have a high potential for snark. A series with this
budget and this talent should not be screwing things up as it has been.
The show has been very sloppy about the details.

[Dimensional Traveler]

It has been as consistent about consistency as almost all Hollywood
productions.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <281120151036160904%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,

You keep saying "talent" - serious question: What "talent" is there
behind this that impresses you?

[David Johnston]

On 11/28/2015 8:36 AM, Super-Menace wrote:
> In article <56593733$0$1660$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/27/2015 2:20 PM, Super-Menace wrote:
>>> In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
>>> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics, movies
>>>> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
>>>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>>>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>>>
>>>
>>> You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
>>> number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
>>> problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
>>>
>>> Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb, much less drown
>>> when she fell into the ocean. I can hear them now: "But it's more
>>> dramatic that way!"
>>>
>>> They need to vet these scripts. Seriously.
>>>
>> You must be new here, we've been snarking on that kind of story
>> stupidity for _DECADES_.
>
>
> Given the budget and this kind of talent, I expect a series with a high
> degree of internal consistency. The mention of Supergirl possibly
> drowning after the explosion bothered me a lot more than her being
> harmed by the explosion itself.

At various points in Superman's career he has needed to breathe.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:

> Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
> last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
> yellow-sun rehab machine.

I gave up after the episode where she got stiches after fighting the Iron
Man knockoff. Stiches!?! My mind is rebelling against that so much I’m
not even sure it actually happened anymore. I may even be mixing it up
with some other show like iZombie, that’s how underpowered Supergirl is
being depicted.

> Yes, the whole Melrose Place aspect of the show is getting hard to
> stomach, but I don't see why she wouldn't be able to have sex with a guy
> without killing him. Obviously Kryptonians can modulate their powers
> when interacting with people, otherwise every handshake or other casual
> encounter would result in maimed bodies and corpses wherever they go.

I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle
contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn’t have been a big deal for Lois and
Supes to hook up, either. Still, seems like a bit of a tightrope walk
between danger and satisfaction to “modulate” yourself during sex. I
don’t know what the treatment of sex was in any of the past comics,
other than it generally being a taboo subject.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

> How do you write a credible threat for
> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?

By spending a little extra money to hire writers clever enough to
figure out stories with an acceptable suspension of disbelief level.
It’s definitely been done in the past, as other’s have pointed out.
Modern society also provides many new threats (hackers, biological
agents, etc.) that could smartly be used to present a challenge to
someone like Supergirl.

And there’s nothing wrong with “hobbling” the hero, so long as it is
done in a reasonable and *consistent* way. Another big problem with
the show is that the just piled on everything, including Kryptonite,
all at once rather than giving the different elements of the story
time to naturally evolve.

If they had been smart, after the pilot they should have gone small
instead of going big. Now they can’t really heighten the story
without going to insane lengths. Their best bet to save the show at
this point is to walk back the control of her by a massive government
agency. Possibly show it as being actually a harmful foe rather than
helpful ally.

[BTR1701]

In article <n3ct45$9en$2...@dont-email.me>,

And yet he can fly in deep space with no breathing apparatus.

It's hard to imagine that all you'd have to do to kill Superman is put a
pillow over his face.

[David Johnston]

On 11/28/2015 12:26 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> How do you write a credible threat for
>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>
> By spending a little extra money to hire writers clever enough to
> figure out stories with an acceptable suspension of disbelief level.
> It’s definitely been done in the past, as other’s have pointed out.
> Modern society also provides many new threats (hackers, biological
> agents, etc.) that could smartly be used to present a challenge to
> someone like Supergirl.
>

In that she'd be totally incompetent to deal with them and should just
stay home and let her sister handle it.

[David Johnston]

Please look at this picture.

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/Rsk9_JzGYe1rGeYgrCiEtg--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NzY5O3E9OTU7dz0xMDAw/http://www.craveonline.com/images/stories/2011/2012/March/Comics/dc/superman/ac7p31000.jpg

or

http://alturl.com/hjxch

[David Johnston]

On 11/28/2015 1:13 PM, BTR1701 wrote:

Except when he can't.

>
> It's hard to imagine that all you'd have to do to kill Superman is put a
> pillow over his face.
>

Well you'd have to hold it there for a very long time. The last time I
saw him dealing with outer space it would take as long to suffocate him
as it would to suffocate a dolphin.

[David Johnston]

On 11/28/2015 12:07 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
>> last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
>> yellow-sun rehab machine.
>
> I gave up after the episode where she got stiches after fighting the Iron
> Man knockoff.

He's a Metallo knockoff

Stiches!?! My mind is rebelling against that so much I’m
> not even sure it actually happened anymore.

I just checked. It didn't.

I may even be mixing it up
> with some other show like iZombie, that’s how underpowered Supergirl is
> being depicted.
>
>> Yes, the whole Melrose Place aspect of the show is getting hard to
>> stomach, but I don't see why she wouldn't be able to have sex with a guy
>> without killing him. Obviously Kryptonians can modulate their powers
>> when interacting with people, otherwise every handshake or other casual
>> encounter would result in maimed bodies and corpses wherever they go.
>
> I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle
> contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn’t have been a big deal for Lois and
> Supes to hook up, either.

It wasn't. They were married for years.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <atropos-6220EF...@news.giganews.com>,

The dreadful Byrne Post-Crisis reboot had him wearing a little paint
fume protection mask to fly to other planets.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3d53a$9di$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> On 11/28/2015 12:07 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > For your reference, records indicate that
> > BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Other than Kryptonite, she should be invincible. No way that bomb in the
> >> last episode should have even knocked her out, let alone put her into a
> >> yellow-sun rehab machine.
> >
> > I gave up after the episode where she got stiches after fighting the Iron
> > Man knockoff.
>
> He's a Metallo knockoff

You and I know that, but, watching it, I sure thought the 'talent' doing
this show was ripping Iron Man.

>
> Stiches!?! My mind is rebelling against that so much I’m
> > not even sure it actually happened anymore.
>
> I just checked. It didn't.

There's a 'pull the chunk out of her juicy flesh and watch it heal' bit
that could be mistaken for getting stitches, but I think that's the
atomic axe.

>
> I may even be mixing it up
> > with some other show like iZombie, that’s how underpowered Supergirl is
> > being depicted.
> >
> >> Yes, the whole Melrose Place aspect of the show is getting hard to
> >> stomach, but I don't see why she wouldn't be able to have sex with a guy
> >> without killing him. Obviously Kryptonians can modulate their powers
> >> when interacting with people, otherwise every handshake or other casual
> >> encounter would result in maimed bodies and corpses wherever they go.
> >
> > I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle
> > contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn’t have been a big deal for Lois and
> > Supes to hook up, either.
>
> It wasn't. They were married for years.

We don't know she didn't have a Kryptonite diaphragm or something.

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/25/2015 at 09:42 PM:
> In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,
> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>
>> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,
>
> Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.

Really? Wow. How old is *Kara* supposed to be, then?

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"I'm calling it. Time of death 9:47 p.m. Drug overdose. This job isn't
so hard." -- Blaine DeBeers, iZOMBIE

[BTR1701]

In article <n3d1ot$rg5$2...@dont-email.me>,

Please look at these pictures:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88475764/Superman1.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88475764/Superman2.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88475764/Superman3.png

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3d9q8$qu2$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/25/2015 at 09:42 PM:
> > In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,
> > A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,
> >
> > Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.
>
> Really? Wow. How old is *Kara* supposed to be, then?

Kara's one year younger. They're either 23 and 24 or 24 and 25. One of
em's 24, and they're a year apart when Kara comes to live with them.
And Alex did college and I think was in grad school when she was
recruited? The Wikis say she's also a doctor; Rao knows when she fit
THAT in. Plus a full year at the DEO before she was allowed to go into
the field. They made it sound like she's been working for Henshaw for a
decade (and she easily looks old enough for that to work) but in reality
it can't be more than a year or two.

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 11/28/2015 11:26 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> How do you write a credible threat for
>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>
> By spending a little extra money

Right there is where anyone in power in Hollywood stopped reading. :)

[Michael Black]

Maybe he's like a whale, and can just hold a lot of air so he can last
longer.

But whales can drown too.

Michael

[shawn]

I don't see a problem here so far unless you are comparing this
version of Supergirl to what you've seen elsewhere. They are showing
her to have real weaknesses even without kryptonite which makes it
easier to tell an interesting story. Otherwise you have to have
villains that are capable of destroying worlds to present a credible
threat (or they use magic) and that isn't reasonable on a weekly basis
for a TV show. So we get a Supergirl that isn't quite as super as you
might expect. So long as they remain internally consistent with her
capabilities or present a reason for a variation (like Barry Allen
getting faster as he learns to use his powers.) I don't see a reason
to complain.

The fact that she might drown after being knocked out of the sky fits
in with this idea that she's not all powerful.

[shawn]

That's all dependent on the version. Some versions of Superman could
fly across the galaxy with no support. Then others (like in the
animated Justice League) needed oxygen when in outer space. It just
depends on what they writers wanted for their character. So as each
show/movie/book is internally consistent I don't see the problem.
While it might be nice if every story based itself on the same idea of
what Superman can/can't do that would be severely limiting on the
sorts of stories that get told.

A Superman that is powered similarly to what we see on the show
SUPERGIRL isn't the sort of character to take on galactic level
threats, but then someone that super powered isn't really the guy you
want taking on bank robbers in a story as there's no threat to him

[anim8rfsk]

In article <l0rl5bpiko7cr57id...@4ax.com>,

It's also quite possible that the DOE just doesn't know what they're
talking about.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

> In article <n3d53a$9di$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
> > On 11/28/2015 12:07 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > Stiches!?! My mind is rebelling against that so much I’m
> > > not even sure it actually happened anymore.
> >
> > I just checked. It didn't.
>
> There's a 'pull the chunk out of her juicy flesh and watch it heal' bit
> that could be mistaken for getting stitches, but I think that's the
> atomic axe.

I don’t think I saw that episode. Perhaps it was after her Super-aunt
(or whatever; they jammed the first 3 episodes with so many characters
that I couldn’t bother to care much about any one of them) got cut with
the kryptonite knife. Or I might have jumbled it up with some other
show in the same week where a tough woman got stitches in a way that
didn’t fit for her character. Whatever the case, I decided to pass on
Supergirl after episode 3.

> > > I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle
> > > contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn’t have been a big deal for Lois and
> > > Supes to hook up, either.
> >
> > It wasn't. They were married for years.
>
> We don't know she didn't have a Kryptonite diaphragm or something.

That’s the problem: we *don’t* know because it never seems to be part of
the mainstream discussion. The only time I recall Super-sex being depicted
was in the Christoper Reeve incarnation, and it was only OK then because
his super powers had been taken away. I highly doubt any comic arcs about
them being married actually talked about doing the deed; they probably even
did that sad depiction of marriage as having two beds in the bedroom!

My point remains that, without a frank approach to the matter, I have zero
interest in seeing a Super person get all hot and bothered over a puny
human. What works dramatically for the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle is
because of their particular dynamic. That doesn’t fit when the female is
the Super one, and it is an especially awkward as a plot device given that
Supergirl hasn’t got much of a secret identity in this show.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 11/28/2015 11:26 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > For your reference, records indicate that
> > Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> >> How do you write a credible threat for
> >> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
> >> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
> >
> > By spending a little extra money
>
> Right there is where anyone in power in Hollywood stopped reading. :)

Which is kinda sad, given the overall expense of getting the franchise
started. You’d think they’d look at it from an ROI standpoint. Spend
an extra $100K+ upfront to get something designed with legs to carry it
on into the long tail of syndication, or save that trivial amount of
money and just allow the show to rot on the vine after 9 episodes. It’s
moves like this that are getting people burnt out on the superhero genre
completely.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

shawn <nanof...@gNOTmail.com> wrote:

> That's all dependent on the version. Some versions of Superman could
> fly across the galaxy with no support. Then others (like in the
> animated Justice League) needed oxygen when in outer space. It just
> depends on what they writers wanted for their character. So as each
> show/movie/book is internally consistent I don't see the problem.

Yeah. Same applies to the “yellow sun powers”: just be consistent and
don’t show him flying around the galaxy one week but collapsing during
an eclipse the next week (or whatever).

> A Superman that is powered similarly to what we see on the show
> SUPERGIRL isn't the sort of character to take on galactic level
> threats, but then someone that super powered isn't really the guy you
> want taking on bank robbers in a story as there's no threat to him

But, at the same time, Super people aren’t omniscient. It is quite
acceptable to have them stop a bank robber they can see rather than
the terrorist attack they couldn’t know about. That should actually be
seen as a rich dramatic vein to mine. That’s another reason I was put
off by the massive government agency’s involvement with Supergirl; it
is going to be *very* hard to believably make her a local hero.

[BTR1701]

In article <l0rl5bpiko7cr57id...@4ax.com>,
shawn <nanof...@gNOTmail.com> wrote:

> I don't see a problem here so far unless you are comparing this
> version of Supergirl to what you've seen elsewhere. They are showing
> her to have real weaknesses even without kryptonite which makes it
> easier to tell an interesting story. Otherwise you have to have
> villains that are capable of destroying worlds to present a credible
> threat (or they use magic) and that isn't reasonable on a weekly basis
> for a TV show. So we get a Supergirl that isn't quite as super as you
> might expect.

Which is why she should be Spider-Girl if they're going to de-power her
to such an extent.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <atropos-4996E8...@news.giganews.com>,

Or they could just change Spider-Woman's last name and give her a
Netflix series ...

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3fflo$mf4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Yeah, that's a problem with the DOE - they have this huge presence, but
it seems to be very centered on National City? Do they have field
offices in Metropolis, Gotham, Star(ling), Central? I mean, they didn't
move to National to be near Supergirl, since she was there first.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that
shawn <nanof...@gNOTmail.com> wrote:

> I don't see a problem here so far unless you are comparing this
> version of Supergirl to what you've seen elsewhere. They are showing
> her to have real weaknesses even without kryptonite which makes it
> easier to tell an interesting story. Otherwise you have to have
> villains that are capable of destroying worlds to present a credible
> threat (or they use magic) and that isn't reasonable on a weekly basis
> for a TV show.

And yet they did jump right in to the use of super villains. There was
only that *very* small window where they allowed her to screw up a
couple local disasters. They chose to go big, and screwed their own
show in the process.

> The fact that she might drown after being knocked out of the sky fits
> in with this idea that she's not all powerful.

There has been too many retellings of these stories for their own good.
The variations need to be *established* in each story line, not just
dropped in as throw away lines. Partly to remind the writers that *they*
are the ones with the burden of staying consistent. If lack of air is a
known weakness for this universe’s Super people, I expect to see villains
focus on *that* as an attack vector, not some stupid punching and kicking
nonsense that has been seen to be ineffective time and time again. Any
bets the writers are competent enough to do that?

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3fgo1$qnb$1...@dont-email.me>,

Doc O'Leary <drol...@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that
> shawn <nanof...@gNOTmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't see a problem here so far unless you are comparing this
> > version of Supergirl to what you've seen elsewhere. They are showing
> > her to have real weaknesses even without kryptonite which makes it
> > easier to tell an interesting story. Otherwise you have to have
> > villains that are capable of destroying worlds to present a credible
> > threat (or they use magic) and that isn't reasonable on a weekly basis
> > for a TV show.
>
> And yet they did jump right in to the use of super villains. There was
> only that *very* small window where they allowed her to screw up a
> couple local disasters. They chose to go big, and screwed their own
> show in the process.

But they seem to have memory holed the Phantom Zone criminals - they've
even pulled the mention of them from the opening narration.

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/28/2015 at 06:05 PM:

> In article <n3d9q8$qu2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/25/2015 at 09:42 PM:
>>> In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,
>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,
>>>
>>> Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.
>>
>> Really? Wow. How old is *Kara* supposed to be, then?
>
> Kara's one year younger. They're either 23 and 24 or 24 and 25. One of
> em's 24, and they're a year apart when Kara comes to live with them.
> And Alex did college and I think was in grad school when she was
> recruited? The Wikis say she's also a doctor; Rao knows when she fit
> THAT in.

Heh. Meanwhile, Kara's a year younger and fetching coffee. Quite the
underachiever!

> Plus a full year at the DEO before she was allowed to go into
> the field. They made it sound like she's been working for Henshaw for a
> decade (and she easily looks old enough for that to work) but in reality
> it can't be more than a year or two.

Yeah, there are all kinds of reasons why it would make a lot of sense to
have a larger age gap between her and Kara.

[David Johnston]

On 11/29/2015 11:20 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> shawn <nanof...@gNOTmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's all dependent on the version. Some versions of Superman could
>> fly across the galaxy with no support. Then others (like in the
>> animated Justice League) needed oxygen when in outer space. It just
>> depends on what they writers wanted for their character. So as each
>> show/movie/book is internally consistent I don't see the problem.
>
> Yeah. Same applies to the “yellow sun powers”: just be consistent and
> don’t show him flying around the galaxy one week but collapsing during
> an eclipse the next week (or whatever).
>
>> A Superman that is powered similarly to what we see on the show
>> SUPERGIRL isn't the sort of character to take on galactic level
>> threats, but then someone that super powered isn't really the guy you
>> want taking on bank robbers in a story as there's no threat to him
>
> But, at the same time, Super people aren’t omniscient. It is quite
> acceptable to have them stop a bank robber they can see rather than
> the terrorist attack they couldn’t know about. That should actually be
> seen as a rich dramatic vein to mine.

It isn't. Superhero shows up for things he knows about and not for
things he doesn't know about. There's not a lot of drama in that story
unless it's something the superhero "should" have known about. Things
that Superman doesn't know about happen all the time. That's why
there's room for other superheros and cops and paramedics...

[David Johnston]

On 11/29/2015 10:54 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:

> My point remains that, without a frank approach to the matter, I have zero
> interest in seeing a Super person get all hot and bothered over a puny
> human. What works dramatically for the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle is
> because of their particular dynamic. That doesn’t fit when the female is
> the Super one, and it is an especially awkward as a plot device given that
> Supergirl hasn’t got much of a secret identity in this show.
>

That's one of the curious things about superheroines. People are much
more accepting of the idea that a hero can have a non-powered girlfriend
than that a heroine can have a non-powered boyfriend. Heck it could
even be the reason why Olsen is studiously ignoring her interest in him.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3fr47$3vb$9...@dont-email.me>,

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/28/2015 at 06:05 PM:
> > In article <n3d9q8$qu2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/25/2015 at 09:42 PM:
> >>> In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,
> >>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,
> >>>
> >>> Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.
> >>
> >> Really? Wow. How old is *Kara* supposed to be, then?
> >
> > Kara's one year younger. They're either 23 and 24 or 24 and 25. One of
> > em's 24, and they're a year apart when Kara comes to live with them.
> > And Alex did college and I think was in grad school when she was
> > recruited? The Wikis say she's also a doctor; Rao knows when she fit
> > THAT in.
>
> Heh. Meanwhile, Kara's a year younger and fetching coffee. Quite the
> underachiever!

That's ... a good point. Unless Kara's been working for Grant for a
looooong time ... what the hell did she do the last several years? (I'm
not even sure she went to college)

>
> > Plus a full year at the DEO before she was allowed to go into
> > the field. They made it sound like she's been working for Henshaw for a
> > decade (and she easily looks old enough for that to work) but in reality
> > it can't be more than a year or two.
>
> Yeah, there are all kinds of reasons why it would make a lot of sense to
> have a larger age gap between her and Kara.

It probably works when they're younger but as adults, not so much.

[~consul]

If I recall the dialogue correctly, I liked how Lana said that she
(Lana) would have no chance with Jimmy if she was competing with
Supergirl. That he would drop everything if Superman called, a
super-man-crush. And now with Superman in a skirt, how can he resist? :D
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here,
at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

[anim8rfsk]

In article <n3g3sa$722$2...@dont-email.me>,

~consul <con...@dolphinsPLEASEdelAWAY-cove.DELcom> wrote:

> On 11/29/2015 5:21 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 11/29/2015 10:54 AM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >> My point remains that, without a frank approach to the matter, I have zero
> >> interest in seeing a Super person get all hot and bothered over a puny
> >> human. What works dramatically for the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle is
> >> because of their particular dynamic. That doesn¹t fit when the female is
> >> the Super one, and it is an especially awkward as a plot device given that
> >> Supergirl hasn¹t got much of a secret identity in this show.
> > That's one of the curious things about superheroines. People are much
> > more accepting of the idea that a hero can have a non-powered
> > girlfriend than that a heroine can have a non-powered boyfriend. Heck
> > it could even be the reason why Olsen is studiously ignoring her
> > interest in him.
>
> If I recall the dialogue correctly, I liked how Lana said that she

Lucy. This isn't the girl from Smallville, it's Lois Lane's blonde
little sister, Jimmy's traditional squeeze.

> (Lana) would have no chance with Jimmy if she was competing with
> Supergirl. That he would drop everything if Superman called, a
> super-man-crush. And now with Superman in a skirt, how can he resist? :D

I did like that line. :)

[Super-Menace]

In article <n3fe5i$g7v$1...@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary

<drol...@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <n3d53a$9di$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On 11/28/2015 12:07 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > >

> > > Stiches!?! My mind is rebelling against that so much I雋

> > > > not even sure it actually happened anymore.
> > >
> > > I just checked. It didn't.
> >
> > There's a 'pull the chunk out of her juicy flesh and watch it heal' bit
> > that could be mistaken for getting stitches, but I think that's the
> > atomic axe.
>

> I don靖 think I saw that episode. Perhaps it was after her Super-aunt

> (or whatever; they jammed the first 3 episodes with so many characters

> that I couldn靖 bother to care much about any one of them) got cut with

> the kryptonite knife. Or I might have jumbled it up with some other
> show in the same week where a tough woman got stitches in a way that

> didn靖 fit for her character. Whatever the case, I decided to pass on

> Supergirl after episode 3.
>
> > > > I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle

> > > > contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn靖 have been a big deal for Lois and

> > > > Supes to hook up, either.
> > >
> > > It wasn't. They were married for years.
> >
> > We don't know she didn't have a Kryptonite diaphragm or something.
>

> That零 the problem: we *don靖* know because it never seems to be part of

> the mainstream discussion. The only time I recall Super-sex being depicted
> was in the Christoper Reeve incarnation, and it was only OK then because
> his super powers had been taken away. I highly doubt any comic arcs about
> them being married actually talked about doing the deed; they probably even
> did that sad depiction of marriage as having two beds in the bedroom!

We did have Clark and Lois in SMALLVILLE. They had an active sex life,
and Clark even delivered a line about how things wouldn't get too rough
for Lois because he'd achieved control over his involuntary reactions
or somesuch.

[Super-Menace]

In article <anim8rfsk-4B49A...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

> In article <281120151036160904%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,
> Super-Menace <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In article <56593733$0$1660$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional

> > Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On 11/27/2015 2:20 PM, Super-Menace wrote:
> > > > In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> > > > Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics,
> > > >> movies

> > > >> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for

> > > >> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
> > > >> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
> > > >
> > > >

> > > > You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
> > > > number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
> > > > problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
> > > >
> > > > Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb, much less drown
> > > > when she fell into the ocean. I can hear them now: "But it's more
> > > > dramatic that way!"
> > > >
> > > > They need to vet these scripts. Seriously.
> > > >
> > > You must be new here, we've been snarking on that kind of story
> > > stupidity for _DECADES_.
> >
> >
> > Given the budget and this kind of talent, I expect a series with a high
> > degree of internal consistency. The mention of Supergirl possibly
> > drowning after the explosion bothered me a lot more than her being
> > harmed by the explosion itself.
> >
> > I've been reading DC since 1959 and saw ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN in
> > first-run, so I have a high potential for snark. A series with this
> > budget and this talent should not be screwing things up as it has been.
> > The show has been very sloppy about the details.
>

> You keep saying "talent" - serious question: What "talent" is there
> behind this that impresses you?


It's a fair question. I think the look of the show is very good. I
think the lead is well cast. I like the newsroom set. I like the
super-suit very much. I think they're working extraordinarily hard on
the flying. Kara doesn't just go across the screen; she swoops in,
pirouettes in midair. Her flying has depth as well as length and
breadth.

I wish the writing were up to all this. There seems to be an internal
squabble over what Kara can and cannot do, and the goalposts get moved
every week.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <291120152206085761%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,

Okay, good list. I'll give you most of the casting (I think Cat and
Alex are the weak links, but Cat may be her writing). I'll give you
*some* of the flying; she really doesn't look good when she's hanging
from wires in a scene with real people - she looks like, you know, she's
hanging from wires. I like the newsroom set even if I think it's silly
they don't have their own Starbucks. :D I *don't* like the super suit.
It's close, but no cigar. I liked a lot of the false starts better. It
really annoys me that they didn't fill in the yellow on the S. I want
brighter colors. I like a lot of the FX work, but it's getting worse.

And, you're absolutely right, it falls apart at the writing and/or
script continuity levels.

--
New sig pending

[anim8rfsk]

In article <291120152205182752%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,

And we had Clark boffing Lana routinely, even if it did turn out to be
Bizarro. :D

--
New sig pending

[KalElFan]

"Doc O'Leary" wrote in message news:n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me...

[reasons that Doc bailed on Supergirl after 3 eps]

> 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept...

> 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great...

I've abbreviated that and grouped your 1 & 2 because they
overlap. If her super powers were truly godlike for example,
she would never be inept. What most struck me about your
post was that your list and mine were almost identical.
Here's my brief list I posted before yours, but I've added
numbering:

"... 1) Kara's had angst at home, 2) at CatCo, 3) performing
as Supergirl, 4) problems with her love life..."

So my #3 "performing as Supergirl" angst gets to your #1
"inept" and #2 "not all that great" superpowers. I'll return
to a bit more detail but for now note my #4 on her love life
versus your #4 that I'll skip to:

> 4) The swooning she does for Jimmy Olsen...

Essentially identical and it was even the 4th point we each
listed. Now back to your #3:

> 3) It seems like everyone and their mother knows who
> she is....

My #1 "Kara's had angst at home" may seem different but
I think the practical "angst" effect is the same. If all the
people who knew were off screen and never seen, few
if any watching would ever think about it. That's not the
case, and so it's the angst-filled interactions between a
few in the know that can drag down the show.

For example they have the nightmare Thanksgiving, where
Kara's Step Mom and Step Sister have it out, while Toyman
Jr.'s stuck in the middle. Kara won't take a phone call except...
oops it's from Jimmy so she'll take it because... well maybe
she experiences undiagnosed red kryptonite syndrome and
can't help herself. It really did make her look pathetic.

To me, it's not really that they all five know each other that's
the main problem. (I'm including Jimmy on the Thanksgiving
phone call). It's what the WRITERS have USED that dynamic
for so far. They've used it for annoying / silly purposes, the
kind that have contributed to why 45% of the viewers left
the show. If it were JUST a Thanksgiving disaster it wouldn't
drive many away, but it's in the context of so many other
angstfests that it drags more out the door over 5 eps e.g.:

She pushes the ship, but it breaks and she causes an oil
spill. She becomes a media joke. Maxwell Lord gets on
her case. In a later incident, Superman has to save her
from Reactron. Yes, we later *hear* a few characters tout
that she beat Reactron and Superman never did, but saying
it never sticks for viewers when they've experienced a
different visual. She may have been dead if Superman
hadn't saved her the first time. They can't undo that.

In another example, even her sister Alex reminds Supergirl
that Livewire can kill her, and the not-so subtle message
is again that this is a fragile *not-so-Supergirl*.

Nearly drowning from the bomb (a separate incident in
a later ep ) can be compared to the other three, but the
reference whooshed past without our seeing her nearly
drown, or for that matter conclusively hurt. We know as
she's powering up, but her seeing the red eyes dominates.
Fact is, she defeated all of Lord's bomb tests each of the
three attempts, and she saved the city. So I'd agrue that
there's hope here that they're getting beyond the Inept
Supergirl. That phase along with the other angst is what
tanked the 45% though. It's very difficult to get those back.

It is almost NEVER ONE THING that drives viewers away.
If it is, it's probably irrelevant in the sense that viewer is
someone who'd soon have left anyway. The CUMULATIVE
effect (in this case four different angst-filled categories)
is what does it, and then maybe one trigger on top of all
that is what sends the viewer away.

The lesson is that angst-filled, annoying writing can't
be pumped out week after week after week without it
seriously damaging the show. It's just a Supergirl show.
People didn't sign up for a pile of angst and annoyance.
The 55% still watching may keep holding their noses,
some indefinitely perhaps. But there's probably still
some potential downside left. Smallville lost 75% of
its viewers, but it took years to get that low and its
second season was actually its highest-rated. So far,
Supergirl has been straight down. The need eps in the
pipe that will stop the bleeding and give us better. I
want to be optimistic but something's gotta give.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

Super-Menace <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote:

> We did have Clark and Lois in SMALLVILLE. They had an active sex life,
> and Clark even delivered a line about how things wouldn't get too rough
> for Lois because he'd achieved control over his involuntary reactions
> or somesuch.

That’s one way to make it work, I suppose, but it sounds like a rather
disappointing solution. Maybe sex just works differently for Kryptonians.
And who am I to say what these aliens should enjoy in their human
beastiality? ;-)

[anim8rfsk]

In article <dc3f9n...@mid.individual.net>,

"KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

> "Doc O'Leary" wrote in message news:n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> [reasons that Doc bailed on Supergirl after 3 eps]
>
> > 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept...
>
> > 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great...
>
> I've abbreviated that and grouped your 1 & 2 because they
> overlap. If her super powers were truly godlike for example,
> she would never be inept.

That's obviously possible - see Ambush Bug. Or the Composite Superman.
He's like the most powerful character in the DC Universe, and he was
completely inept, despite having Brainiac 5's intellect.

First, why don't they adjust his damn signal watch so it calls HER too?
In the meantime, she really has to take calls from anybody who knows
she's Supergirl, because what if she doesn't and the message is "space
shuttle about to crash into Metropolis"?

>
> To me, it's not really that they all five know each other that's
> the main problem. (I'm including Jimmy on the Thanksgiving
> phone call). It's what the WRITERS have USED that dynamic
> for so far. They've used it for annoying / silly purposes, the
> kind that have contributed to why 45% of the viewers left
> the show. If it were JUST a Thanksgiving disaster it wouldn't
> drive many away, but it's in the context of so many other
> angstfests that it drags more out the door over 5 eps e.g.:
>
> She pushes the ship,

Actually she PULLS it. By the nose. Which is why it breaks. It sort
of works from the standpoint that it's an incredibly stupid thing for
her to do.

but it breaks and she causes an oil
> spill. She becomes a media joke. Maxwell Lord gets on
> her case. In a later incident, Superman has to save her
> from Reactron. Yes, we later *hear* a few characters tout
> that she beat Reactron and Superman never did, but saying
> it never sticks for viewers when they've experienced a
> different visual. She may have been dead if Superman
> hadn't saved her the first time. They can't undo that.

And it's the lead in all CatCo media stories forever.

>
> In another example, even her sister Alex reminds Supergirl
> that Livewire can kill her, and the not-so subtle message
> is again that this is a fragile *not-so-Supergirl*.

Of course there's no possible way for Alex to know that.

>
> Nearly drowning from the bomb (a separate incident in
> a later ep ) can be compared to the other three, but the
> reference whooshed past without our seeing her nearly
> drown, or for that matter conclusively hurt. We know as
> she's powering up, but her seeing the red eyes dominates.
> Fact is, she defeated all of Lord's bomb tests each of the

The problem is, the bombs we saw go off ... weren't that powerful. One
weakened a building, the other blew up a train car. Unless the middle
one was incredibly more powerful, and why would it be, they've
established her as not being very tough.

> three attempts, and she saved the city. So I'd agrue that
> there's hope here that they're getting beyond the Inept
> Supergirl. That phase along with the other angst is what
> tanked the 45% though. It's very difficult to get those back.
>
> It is almost NEVER ONE THING that drives viewers away.
> If it is, it's probably irrelevant in the sense that viewer is
> someone who'd soon have left anyway. The CUMULATIVE
> effect (in this case four different angst-filled categories)
> is what does it, and then maybe one trigger on top of all
> that is what sends the viewer away.
>
> The lesson is that angst-filled, annoying writing can't
> be pumped out week after week after week without it
> seriously damaging the show. It's just a Supergirl show.
> People didn't sign up for a pile of angst and annoyance.
> The 55% still watching may keep holding their noses,
> some indefinitely perhaps. But there's probably still
> some potential downside left. Smallville lost 75% of
> its viewers, but it took years to get that low and its
> second season was actually its highest-rated. So far,
> Supergirl has been straight down. The need eps in the
> pipe that will stop the bleeding and give us better. I
> want to be optimistic but something's gotta give.

--
New sig pending

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

"KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

> "Doc O'Leary" wrote in message news:n3a6dp$dps$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> [reasons that Doc bailed on Supergirl after 3 eps]
>
> > 1) The way they constantly kept showing her as inept...
>
> > 2) Her super powers don’t seem all that great...
>
> I've abbreviated that and grouped your 1 & 2 because they
> overlap. If her super powers were truly godlike for example,
> she would never be inept.

That’s not entirely true. Consider that throw away scene where they
had her rip apart the oil tanker, and then apparently abandon the
spill she caused! If they had been smarter, and chosen to go small
rather than go big, that whole incident should have been an entire
episode where she stuck around to help, and thus better established
the character.

They’re not the same problem, and they aren’t even *inherently* a
problem, but for they way this show has been written, they definitely
*do* cause problems (which are too easily related to one another). I
absolutely would have been on board with a show that established her
as a weak and inexperienced superohero, so long as they *also* showed
real growth in the process.

Consider the Netflix version of Daredevil, for example, where they took
the entire first *season* to establish their costumed character. I loved
the way that show was crafted, and I would have loved Supergirl if it had
been crafted half as well. Instead, they made everything happen at once,
but also made her weak and stupid at the same time. Just didn’t work for
me.

> > 3) It seems like everyone and their mother knows who
> > she is....
>
> My #1 "Kara's had angst at home" may seem different but
> I think the practical "angst" effect is the same. If all the
> people who knew were off screen and never seen, few
> if any watching would ever think about it.

That’s true, but it’s only part of the problem. From a storytelling
perspective, everyone being in on the secret really limits the
directions you can go. There are fewer opportunities to exploit the
duality to drive the plot along. For example, Jimmy Olsen knows
both identities and doesn’t appear to be interested in either, and
that does lead to the pointless angst on her part, but it also
means no possible love triangle a la Superman/Lois/Clark. At least
not unless the writers start introducing more characters to the
already overcrowded cast.

> To me, it's not really that they all five know each other that's
> the main problem. (I'm including Jimmy on the Thanksgiving
> phone call). It's what the WRITERS have USED that dynamic
> for so far.

I’m just not sure *how* they can use it to any great effect. I just
don’t see a lot of dramatic potential in making it a shared secret.
Not in the world they’ve built so far, anyway.

[Bill Steele]

On 11/24/15 9:02 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> When she had the interview with
> Supergirl, the first thing she said was "it's you"
> as she floated above her. My first thought was
> that Cat knew for sure, at that moment, that it
> was Kara. We'll see...

The underlying assumption is that her glasses are a 100% effective
disguise, just like Clark Kent's.

I still flash on the old radio show, where Superman rescues Lois from
something and says "Good thing it's dark in here."

[anim8rfsk]

In article <haydncwLFfyaPMHL...@earthlink.com>,

Bill Steele <ws...@cornel.edu> wrote:

> On 11/24/15 9:02 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> > When she had the interview with
> > Supergirl, the first thing she said was "it's you"
> > as she floated above her. My first thought was
> > that Cat knew for sure, at that moment, that it
> > was Kara. We'll see...
>
> The underlying assumption is that her glasses are a 100% effective
> disguise, just like Clark Kent's.

I wish they'd done the hair color bit even if they didn't explain it. I
have no idea how she's bleaching her hair as Kara Danvers, or why the
Hell she's wearing glasses when she's not in disguise ...

>
> I still flash on the old radio show, where Superman rescues Lois from
> something and says "Good thing it's dark in here."

heh

--
New sig pending

[KalElFan]

"Doc O'Leary" wrote in message news:n3i5v4$bb$1...@dont-email.me...

> For your reference, records indicate that
> "KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>

>> ... If her super powers were truly godlike for example, she would

>> never be inept.
>
> That’s not entirely true. Consider that throw away scene where

> they had her rip apart the oil tanker...

Yes I mentioned that, with an error as Ani pointed out (I said she
pushed; she pulled and that ripped the ship). To me, definitionally,
godlike powers can't be that if someone is inept and has no idea
how to use them. That's more like fodder for a comedy than what
people expect to be a superhero show.

As David posted here (and Super-Menace on rec.arts.sf.superman),
CBS has given Supergirl a 20-ep season. I think the issue is going
to be whether they renew it beyond that just before the upfronts
in May, or throw in the towel. They'll know by then whether the
Tribune negotiations with The CW have worked out. If CBS drops
Supergirl and Tribune is in, I can't imagine The CW not picking up
Supergirl.

Here's the live same day damage so far, the -45% I mentioned:

Ep 1 --- 12.96 Million Viewers
Ep 2 --- 8.87 Million Viewers
Ep 3 --- 8.07 Million Viewers
Ep 4 --- 7.77 Million Viewers
Ep 5 --- 7.19 Million Viewers -- (*** 45% below the Pilot ***)

The stunts with Benoist's husband, and Superboy at 13, and the
rumored (I think likely) Supergirl crossover with the Flash / Arrow
in May, could all help.

Tonight's ep could also help if it teases that Hank is Martian
Manhunter. I agree with you that the DEO concept is weak
right now, but I don't think it's inherently weak. It's weak due
to Hank being a 5-second bad guy that Supes and everyone
had no clue about. He should have been dead long ago. If
he's MM, on the other hand, he's a perfect leader of DEO.
He is an alien, knows aliens, but is a future Justice Leaguer
and trusted by Supes. Everything he's done, how he's acted,
makes more sense.

Even the title "red-faced" tonight, emphasis on red as in the
red planet and also Kara and Alex being suspicious of Hank
after the last ep, is a better fit if he's MM. They realize soon,
perhaps, that Hank's actually a good guy.

[Wouter Valentijn]

Op 28-11-2015 om 22:14 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <atropos-6220EF...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <n3ct45$9en$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>
>>> On 11/28/2015 8:36 AM, Super-Menace wrote:
>>>> In article <56593733$0$1660$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
>>>> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/27/2015 2:20 PM, Super-Menace wrote:
>>>>>> In article <5658c8e5$0$1697$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
>>>>>> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is the same problem that cripples the writing of the comics,
>>>>>>> movies
>>>>>>> and every other TV show. How do you write a credible threat for
>>>>>>> Superman (or Supergirl) that doesn't involve leveling cities or
>>>>>>> destroying continents _without_ hobbling them somehow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You send in the Parasite, Doomsday, Mxyzptlk, Luthor, or any of a
>>>>>> number of other Superman-worthy opponents. You don't deal with the
>>>>>> problem by varying the character's power levels from week to week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Supergirl should not have been harmed by that bomb, much less drown
>>>>>> when she fell into the ocean. I can hear them now: "But it's more
>>>>>> dramatic that way!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They need to vet these scripts. Seriously.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You must be new here, we've been snarking on that kind of story
>>>>> stupidity for _DECADES_.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Given the budget and this kind of talent, I expect a series with a high
>>>> degree of internal consistency. The mention of Supergirl possibly
>>>> drowning after the explosion bothered me a lot more than her being
>>>> harmed by the explosion itself.
>>>

>>> At various points in Superman's career he has needed to breathe.
>>
>> And yet he can fly in deep space with no breathing apparatus.
>
> The dreadful Byrne Post-Crisis reboot had him wearing a little paint
> fume protection mask to fly to other planets.
>

:-(
Yeah.
And I did this double take when they published that six part retelling
of his origin by Byrne. I was thinking: They're doing a cross-over with
Marvel? What's Kingpin doing in a Superman comic? Then I noticed they
called him Lex Luthor... :-/


--
www.woutervalentijn.net 7^2

liam=mail

[Wouter Valentijn]

Op 29-11-2015 om 23:21 schreef David Johnston:

Did anyone here see "My Super Ex-Girlfriend"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465624/

--
www.woutervalentijn.net 7^2

liam=mail

[anim8rfsk]

In article <565ca62b$0$23736$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>,

hee hee

--
New sig pending

[anim8rfsk]

In article <dc3n0...@mid.individual.net>,

Isn't "red-faced" the Red Tornado?

--
New sig pending

[Wouter Valentijn]

Op 28-11-2015 om 22:22 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <n3d53a$9di$1...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>

<snip>

>>> I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle

>>> contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn’t have been a big deal for Lois and

>>> Supes to hook up, either.
>>
>> It wasn't. They were married for years.
>
> We don't know she didn't have a Kryptonite diaphragm or something.
>

Uhm, Kryptonite or Kryptonian? Their sex should be safe. Also for him. ;-)

--
www.woutervalentijn.net 7^2

liam=mail

[Michael Black]

But Kryptonite would ensure that the sperm stops dead.

Maybe there's a special color of Kryptonite for birth control.

BUt maybe it is just a bit of baby blanket that becomes strong under the
yellow sun.

Or maybe her mom packed some Kryptonian birth control devices "for future
use".

Michael

[Jim G.]

anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/29/2015 at 05:09 PM:

> In article <n3fr47$3vb$9...@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/28/2015 at 06:05 PM:
>>> In article <n3d9q8$qu2$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 11/25/2015 at 09:42 PM:
>>>>> In article <251120152219419647%no...@noway.com>,
>>>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex Danvers has been working for Henshaw for years,
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't be many years, as she's supposed to be 24.
>>>>
>>>> Really? Wow. How old is *Kara* supposed to be, then?
>>>
>>> Kara's one year younger. They're either 23 and 24 or 24 and 25. One of
>>> em's 24, and they're a year apart when Kara comes to live with them.
>>> And Alex did college and I think was in grad school when she was
>>> recruited? The Wikis say she's also a doctor; Rao knows when she fit
>>> THAT in.
>>
>> Heh. Meanwhile, Kara's a year younger and fetching coffee. Quite the
>> underachiever!
>
> That's ... a good point. Unless Kara's been working for Grant for a
> looooong time ... what the hell did she do the last several years? (I'm
> not even sure she went to college)

She and Brian from LIMITLESS would probably get along really well.

But seriously, if they're a year apart in age and Alex has accomplished
all of those things, then, yeah, Kara should have been feeling pretty
inadequate before she put on that cape.

[KalElFan]

"anim8rfsk" wrote in message
news:anim8rfsk-5AFE5...@news.easynews.com...

> In article <dc3n0...@mid.individual.net>,
> "KalElFan" <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

> ...

>> Tonight's ep could also help if it teases that Hank is Martian

>> Manhunter. I agree with [Doc] that the DEO concept is weak

>> right now, but I don't think it's inherently weak. It's weak due
>> to Hank being a 5-second bad guy that Supes and everyone
>> had no clue about. He should have been dead long ago. If
>> he's MM, on the other hand, he's a perfect leader of DEO.
>> He is an alien, knows aliens, but is a future Justice Leaguer
>> and trusted by Supes. Everything he's done, how he's acted,
>> makes more sense.
>>
>> Even the title "red-faced" tonight, emphasis on red as in the
>> red planet and also Kara and Alex being suspicious of Hank
>> after the last ep, is a better fit if he's MM. They realize soon,
>> perhaps, that Hank's actually a good guy.
>
> Isn't "red-faced" the Red Tornado?

Nominally, "Red" Tornado fits as a color. I think they mean "red-
faced" to refer to Supergirl messing up somehow though. The
blurb includes: "Stress and anger get the better of Kara when
she goes too far during a training exercise against..." [the Red
military cyborg].

In the "How does she do it?" ep one line used that to refer to
Cat, so it wasn't just Supergirl. I'm hoping (against hope!) that
maybe there are multiple Red references here. If it's all about
Supergirl taking crap from General Lane for trouncing his cyborg,
then yawn. It it's Alex and Supergirl realizing that Hank isn't
a bad guy, and he's a friend of Superman and from Mars, and
if they maybe learn Pa Danvers is still alive running something
important, it might be the best episode yet. We'll see.

[anim8rfsk]

In article <alpine.LNX.2.02.1...@darkstar.example.org>,

Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>
> > Op 28-11-2015 om 22:22 schreef anim8rfsk:
> >> In article <n3d53a$9di$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>> I always assumed it was an issue with . . . involuntary muscle

> >>>> contractions. Otherwise, it shouldn⤁t have been a big deal for Lois

> >>>> and
> >>>> Supes to hook up, either.
> >>>
> >>> It wasn't. They were married for years.
> >>
> >> We don't know she didn't have a Kryptonite diaphragm or something.
> >>
> >
> > Uhm, Kryptonite or Kryptonian? Their sex should be safe. Also for him. ;-)
> >
> But Kryptonite would ensure that the sperm stops dead.
>
> Maybe there's a special color of Kryptonite for birth control.
>
> BUt maybe it is just a bit of baby blanket that becomes strong under the
> yellow sun.

hah! I like that.

>
> Or maybe her mom packed some Kryptonian birth control devices "for future
> use".
>
> Michael

--
New sig pending